JIM LEE TALKS WORLDSTORM/ALL STAR BATMAN: Part 2

[MattBrady]

In Part One of our recent chat with Jim Lee, we talked about the scheduling issues surrounding the artist/executive’s new WildCats launch and All Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder. In today’s Part Two, we wind up talking about those issue some more, but also talk more about the creative direction of the new WildStorm Universe, readers criticisms of All Star Batman, and of course, WildStorm’s and Lee’s own future at DC.

Newsarama: Jim, we’ve talked about scheduling and we’ll probably talk about it some more, but focusing on WildStorm and Worldstorm in particular for a moment - can you take us back to the original idea of a total universe relaunch? What was the instigating idea there?

Jim Lee: The idea was to have our cake and eat it too. To give each of the creative teams the freedom to tell the best stories they could without being fettered down by years of continuity while giving diehard fans 90% of what they were used to in the WildStorm Universe. It's about making the universe feel fresh and new again with the same sense of excitement we had back in the 90's without making that the focus of the relaunch itself...at least right away. This way, the reader can jump right in without having to read a 12-part maxi about how the current relaunch ties into 14 years of continuity. We can let that story unfold as we move forward after we have the readers' attention.

NRAMA: And the world of the WildStorm Universe now - is it the exact same place as say, the original WildC.A.T.S. and Sleeper, or was a new, slightly altered universe created as a result of the big bang in Captain Atom: Armageddon?

JL: The latter. It's the idea that reality has been rewoven and while it was intended to be an exact mirror of the old reality, something failed in the process - a glitch in the overwrite - and now there are some interesting anomalies in the new, current universe. Characters believed to have been dead are back, but sometimes slightly different. Others are back, completely unchanged. And none of the characters seems to have noticed that things have been remastered. Or have they? That's the mystery that we will be building up as the year progresses.

NRAMA: What is the "WorldStorm" itself? WildCats #1 mentioned it as a specific event...

JL: It's the notion that the entire WSU has been remastered - recreated but with numerous alterations. Some small, some large and it's those changes which have rocked the world. Hence, "WorldStorm."

NRAMA: Is there a cohesive plan behind the whole reboot/relaunch - where everything ties together? Say, a "WildStorm Bible?" Why or why not?

JL: Yes, there is a grand outline...a master plan as laid out by Grant Morrison. But within that framework, there's a lot of freedom to allow each creative team on each book to run with their take on the characters, keeping in mind that there is this bigger overview established.

Having been involved in many a big event, I can say this is one of those things which is the hardest to organize; you grapple over how much to dictate and how much to let go of. You don't go out and hire some of the biggest, most creative names in the business to write chapters of a bigger story established by someone else. On the other hand, there are a lot of positives that come out of a shared universe which has one set of rules so to speak. How magic works...what level of technology is the world at, etc etc.

I've seen universe bibles like the old Malibu Universe one grow to thicker than a large dictionary and others written down on 5-7 sheets of paper. Ours leans to the latter which gives us a sense of the big picture and every creator the flexibility they want and quite frankly, deserve.

NRAMA: In your view, what characterizes WildStorm apart from the DC Universe?

JL: A broader, more cynical view of the value of authority; the WildStorm Universe started in the early 90's and reflects that period's sense of skepticism and distrust of the government and those who seek to control us either through the use of force of by the control of information. If the Marvel motto is "With great power comes great responsibility," then DC's would be "Truth, Justice, and the American Way." WildStorm's on the other hand could easily be: "Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."

NRAMA: To date, we've seen shipping changes on The Authority and WildCats as we previously discussed - do you think the bi-monthly and bi-annual schedules of those two arguably pillars of the relaunch will have a trickle down effect that will affect the other launches in a negative way?

JL: Yes and no. One on hand, common sense and logic would dictate that there would be some negative trickle down effect. On the other, if that were true, you could also argue the opposite would be true. In other words, one hot book would make the others sell better too. And sales and marketing folk can tell you that that is the hardest thing to predict and make a reality.

To give you an example...Batman: Hush sold like gangbusters. The other Batman books' sales did not spike in the same way at all. The fans and retailers resist being told what to buy for other reasons than the quality of the books. I understand the lateness of a title impacts their decisions, and rightly so, but in the end, each book in our relaunch stands or falls on its own merits. That's why it was imperative to get the best creators for each and every title.

NRAMA: Just for the record, why were the respective #1 issues of each series solicited and published if the #2 issues were likely going to be late? Why not hold off WildCats #1 for example until a time that not only would #2 follow-up it bimonthly as scheduled, but at a time when #3 and #4 would follow as well? In other, broader words, why don't publishers hold off solicitation/publication for projects with potential scheduling issues until a significant amount of work is in hand?

JL: I think having two years of books come out on time on Batman: Hush and Superman: For Tomorrow gave everyone, myself first and foremost on that list, a sense that the deadlines could be met. There is a broader reason which has to do with publishing schedules and plans which are made years in advance which come into play. Plans are made years in advance and sometimes, once a date gets picked and other events are organized around that date, no matter if the initial date was a tentative one or not, realistic or not, that the dates and the schedule become more real and entrenched over time.

Why don't publishers just hold off on projects until significant amounts of work are in hand? Well, that would be too logical, wouldn't it?

It's so easy to say, "Yes." To please the fans, the editors, the marketing people, the retailers. So much harder to put in the 240+ hours it takes to draw one 22 page comic. The obvious solution is to say 'No'. And that's why I am ultimately to blame. And I realize I am really the only person who can make it right.

Thing is, there is an incredible demand and pressure to put books out. And if you are one of the lucky few (actually, lucky many) of the creators who can create work that sells, the marketplace (and by that I include publishers, retailers and fans) - the sum total of the industry has an unquenchable thirst and demand for material, for stories, for art that obviously clouds everyone's sense of judgment and common sense. What kind of idiot would say they could make unrealistic deadlines knowing they are only going to incur the wrath of editors, fans and retailers? Wait, don't answer that one.

NRAMA: Okay, we won’t [laughs]…

We already mentioned trickle down, do you think as the highest profile and "ranking" artist at DC, that your lateness as a trickle-down-by-example-effect? Does the “Broken Window Theory” apply to comics? Other creators take their cue from figures like yourself and others regarding the priority of keeping schedules?

JL: Oh God, I hope not [laughs]. That said, when I was on time for better parts of two years, I did have creators calling me up and saying it inspired them to get back on a monthly title. But I think they were responding more to seeing someone else's success come out of a book that was shipping on time rather than the positive merits of being on time for its own sake. They are probably more annoyed when their book comes out on time, each and every month, year in, year out and the retailers and fans still don't take notice.

NRAMA: Okay, fair enough on that all. Moving on … sell readers - what's the WildStorm book coming up that you think is going to be a sleeper?

JL: Deathblow by Brian Azzarello and Carlos D'Anda. Deathblow is the one character each of these creators begged me to work on. Threatened me with bodily harm if I didn't hand them the keys to the car. Brian has created an incredible overview to the character...an immensely satisfying character arc and journey which just nails the character's appeal. And Carlos is coming into his own, inking his own pencils. His moody, shadow intensive style is just perfect for the character. I've already received raves from fans and retailers about the book.

NRAMA: Moving back over to All Star Batman & Robin - where are you currently on that series? Is issue #5 done? Almost done? Kinda done?

JL: Almost done. I've had offers to have people come in and help me with backgrounds and pages but I just can't let go. Sorry, control freak or perfectionist or just plain stupid...or all of the above? [raises hand]

NRAMA: You're on the 'net - you've been to conventions. ASB&R isn't exactly what people were expecting from you and Frank, with the bulk of the criticism being well...negative. Is that what you were expecting when you started this? Obviously, as you read the scripts, and were drawing, you knew this was the hardest of the hardcore Batman...

JL: I'd say it runs 60-40 against to be honest. On the other hand, I have a lot of fans tell me how they love the over-the-top take on Batman so I know we are getting the message of the story across. And that it's a fresh take on the character and it's a take I wholeheartedly support.

I love working on the book and working with Frank. You don't get to where Frank is by giving the fans what they necessarily want. As an artist, Frank has evolved and changed over the years and I think it's a bit much to demand he write a character that has been already interpreted in so many different ways in the same way he did 20 years ago. Let's give the man his due. He has delivered time and time over and over again. All-Star Batman is different and not for everyone, but I think when people read it in its whole (soon, knock on wood), that they will have a different take on the story. This is all set-up. The payoff makes the set-up satisfying.

NRAMA: Likewise, how do you handle something say, Clark looking at the milk carton with Dick's picture on it, when, as you've shown a few pages earlier, they're still in the car from the initial abduction. I mean - that really didn't make sense...did that raise any hackles for you?

JL: No, not really. There's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief that's required in every fictional story whether it's presented in comic book, novel or film format. Every reader/viewer/fan has to decide when it's too much so that it breaks the enjoyment of the story. I think Frank wanted to play with the idea that Dick was really a kid and wanted to use the imagery of Missing-Child-on-Milk-Cartons to reinforce this idea through images. I think this was a conscious decision as editor Bob Schreck even suggested having Clark hearing about the kidnapping over the radio but Frank chose to go with the iconic image. On the other hand, maybe the Metropolis Dairy Commission has really, really timely deliveries [laughs].

NRAMA: It seems to be that, as mentioned earlier, the bulk of the criticism … and anger people are feeling for ASB&R is due to their expectations of "Frank Miller and Jim Lee" not matching up with reality. As an artist's popularity and audience grows is there a balance that calls to be maintained between giving people what they want versus doing what you (as the artist) want? This may sound strange, but when you're "Jim Lee" are your outlets/avenues that will be commercially and critically successful limited to some extent?

JL: Yeah and I think I have hit on this notion in prior interviews. That to a certain extent, you are "trapped" by your commercial success in that the bulk of your fans don't want you to grow and change, evidenced by the "I liked your old work better" comments you hear now and then. But I think artists need to keep pushing their style and their work to prevent stagnation. The changes in my work may be more subtle but I like to think my draftsmanship has improved over the years. And I have other projects where I will bust loose something really different here and there.

As for ASB&R, I think fans will have a different take on it when we have completed our story...all the more reason for me to get back to the drawing table...like as in, right now!

NRAMA: Just one more sec… Looking ahead, do you see a time in the coming months when you'll be able to pull things back towards a regular schedule?

JL: The act of creating isn't an exact science. "One page a day" as a work motto would solve every single creator and editor's deadlines issues. 8-10 hours a day to create one page. One page a day with weekends off gives you still 20 pages a month. Work one weekend and you have your book done. Work one more Saturday and there's your cover. Simple as that. But it doesn't work that way in real life. Because artists are not machines. But that's the mentality you need to have. Grind it out. And that's what I am trying to do. Get back to one page a day. The math takes care of the rest.

NRAMA: While it's not immediately on the horizon, the 10th Anniversary of WildStorm becoming part of DC is coming up in 2008. Too early to think of a build towards something for the occasion?

JL: No, we already have plans, BIG plans...but a part of the problem with the issues we are talking about and I'm referring to the unquenchable demand for the New, New Thing is that it's probably best for me not to say anything about it. You (the fans and retailers) can't be upset over what you don't know, and we are trying to learn from our past mistakes.

NRAMA: Your future - likewise, ‘08 will be ten years of you being at DC. Is that something that you see continuing indefinitely as well, or could you see yourself as a free agent again?

JL: Well, I am very happy at DC. Paul Levitz and company have really made it a great place to work creatively. I get to follow my passions and that's a luxury I never try to take for granted. I don't think I have really made my creative mark yet on DC so I know that's an itch that still needs a lot of scratching.

Obviously I need to repair my sorry-ass delays in shipping, but more importantly, I want to create a much larger body of work and I figure I have a good 13 years left in me - and that's a stretch of time I don't want to squander. ASB&R is a great story which is just starting to open up. I think the rebirth of the WildCats is instrumental to the health of WildStorm. The sheer volume of work the MMO has required will pay off when that game ships and fans marvel at how awesome the game looks and plays. I couldn't ask for more: DC has given me the opportunity to work on so many cool and different projects...maybe too many, but I'd rather be swamped with work than begging to get a callback; it's just the workaholic in me.

[bishop-m]

I love Jim lee's art. I just cant wait for him to get some more issues out. I've always enjoyed his work, and am looking forward to the Wildcats drawn by him again!

[WalterKovacs]

Whatever. Jim Lee seems like a nice enough guy but some of the stuff he says is just killing me. Miller's writing on this title is just bad and sloppy. Having Lee come up with a bunch of excuses for it is just ridiculous.

[Superfrick]

I was hoping the 2nd part to this interview would be late

[Xeero]

Nice interview, I liked it. Can't wait for the next WildCats issue, tho. Seems like years away...

[stvnhthr]

I think Jim is doing a tremendous job of addressing all of the negative criticism aimed at him. In my eyes he stands tall..well as tall as someone 5'2" can. Keep up the good work! I can't wait to see how some of my favorite characters like Brass and Backlash turn out in the new Worldstorm.

[csatterlee]

I know a lot of people have issues with ASBARTBW, but I have to say that I really enjoyed the fourth issue immensely. I was excited to see Alfred and Bats get into it and the ending of the issue was classic Frank Miller dialogue. I was renewed in my faith that this is going to be great when finished. Jim Lee's art on the series thus far is awesome. It includes one of the very best batcave drawings I have ever seen. I truly wish it would come out more often, but what the heck, I'll get it when it does come out. At least the fact that it is only coming out every now and then saves me some cash.

I refuse to give up on two of my favorite creators. I know this is going to be worth it when finished.

[Corwin]

Frank Miller's latest attempt to salvage his reputation on Batman in no way indicates that as a writer he is "fearless" (as Lee has attested in the past). It only proves that, when it comes to Batman, Miller is done. Watch him prove it further with his upcoming/silly Dark Knight vs. Al Qaida fiasco.

Corwin

[FIG]

I don't care if the works late, Jim is working 2 comics and an MMOG from SOE. Whats so hard to understand that its not his lack of work ethic but the amount of work he has? His lateness is understandable. Jim rocks.

[jasonbradley]

Great article. What a class act Jim Lee is. And I am not buying for one second that the delays on ASB&R are Lee's fault. He has never ever been this late for anything and I don't think it is in his moral fabric to let something like this happen. Something else is going on here. But What?

[Jesusfish]

Originally Posted by csatterlee

I know a lot of people have issues with ASBARTBW, but I have to say that I really enjoyed the fourth issue immensely.

I refuse to give up on two of my favorite creators. I know this is going to be worth it when finished.

I agree. It took me 4 issues to catch on, but I finally connected with the tone of the series in the fourth issue. I thought it was hillarious.

[Del Gorky]

With Wildcats being late and Authority being bi-monthly this puts lots of pressure on the other books to be on time every time and to really hit the ball out of the park. It's hard to sell any book bi-monthly. The Authority has the pedigree but we'll see if fan interest remains for the concept. Jim Lee has basically endangered the entire Wildstorm line so he can work on a videogame.

It may be great for him; I'm sure it pays well. But it isn't comics and so I don't really care. If the Worldstorm thing doesn't work and Wildstorm has to be retooled far too soon again and books start getting cancelled, remember who to blame: That Class Act Jim Lee.

[kalorama]

Originally Posted by FIG

I don't care if the works late, Jim is working 2 comics and an MMOG from SOE. Whats so hard to understand that its not his lack of work ethic but the amount of work he has? His lateness is understandable.

His lateness is understandable. His willingness to repeatedly put himself in the position of failing to live up to his professional committments (despite ample historical evidence that such failure is a likely outcome of his choices) is not. What's not understandable is why, after 20 years in the business, he hasn't yet learned how to balance his workload and avoid committing to more work than he could possibly have any reasonable expectation of completing on time.

[nightwingoracle]

outside of the Black Canary issue, I think this series has been crap thus far....

but the art has been good

[xdemon]

Originally Posted by WalterKovacs

Whatever. Jim Lee seems like a nice enough guy but some of the stuff he says is just killing me. Miller's writing on this title is just bad and sloppy. Having Lee come up with a bunch of excuses for it is just ridiculous.

My thoughts exactly.

And Jim Lee should learn to say "No" to some projects.

[seethruhero]

No wonder the book is late. Look at the detail ont hat damn preview art! Jeez!

[jeircho]

Originally Posted by WalterKovacs

Whatever. Jim Lee seems like a nice enough guy but some of the stuff he says is just killing me. Miller's writing on this title is just bad and sloppy. Having Lee come up with a bunch of excuses for it is just ridiculous.

Jim Lee says its going to be good. What's so good about watching Batman & Dick Grayson in a car talking for 4 issues? Hell even Brian Michael Bendis, with all his dialogue, at least has progess in his work. With the hokey dialogue and scattered plot it really shows that sometimes the greats can only be great for so long. I don't expect a 90 year old Michael Jordan to be the same amazing Jordan @ 25.

Sad to say but he needs to focus his energy on something else as its simply over for him in comics, unless its a Sin City storyline. Hell check out THE DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN. Only cool thing about that book was the title. It might have been a hippy's wet dream but it certainly wasn't the same man that gave us THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS or those wonderful DAREDEVIL stories I've come to love.

[purplerocket]

Originally Posted by MattBrady

NRAMA: To date, we've seen shipping changes on The Authority and WildCats as we previously discussed - do you think the bi-monthly and bi-annual schedules of those two arguably pillars of the relaunch will have a trickle down effect that will affect the other launches in a negative way?

Bi-annual? Does this mean each issue will take 5 or 6 months to come out, or will issue #3 come out in May and so on.

I dont mind the wait til March but if its gonna take so long to come out i wouldnt mind knowing.

Anyone help?

[ultraaman]

I have dropped ASB&R because of delays and didn't pick up any of the new WildStorm titles for fear of this exact same thing.

This is not the same thing as Loeb's delay on SuperBat. He at least had a decent excuse. Lee just put too much on his plate...then did it again...then did it again. Call me in March if/when these things are back on schedule.

[Kinnon]

I appreciate Jims courage in at least offering an explanation and holding his hands up to the delays that have affected his titles in the last year, However as an A-list artist the effect I've witnessed through retail on these titles is really quite profound.
At least DC, unlike marvel is willing to take their late books on the chin and offer retailers the chance to return them at a later date, However at customer level being percieved as "a late artist" on both Wildcats and All Star Batman and robin has clearly damaiging sales wise.
We ordered heavy on Wildcats hoping for numbers on a #1 issue that would reflect both Morrison and Lee's status in the comic community (approximating numbers just below All Star), however after the announcement that #2 would be so late, and even on release week a lot of customers were saying they would "wait for trade", we ended up doing less than titles where Morrison was the obvious commercial draw (such as Vimanarama, seaguy, seven soldiers).In short, after the debacle of all star Batman (which is now at 1/2 and lower of the sales of issue#1 and dropping), I'm left with the conclusion that Jims involvement on Wildcats was actually a negative draw at retail level. on a number #1 issue with 2 such supposed high profile creators we did marginally more than Joe caseys run with only a few over regular wildcats fans returning to the mix.
For what it's worth Authority mimicked this performance near exactly.
I'm sad to say that on the resolicit I'll only be ordering 1/3 what I ordered for issue #1.
I sincerely hope we were the exception, but in our shop our customers are voting very strongly indeed against late creators and I have no choice but to follow their lead orders wise.

[dcbill]

NRAMA: Likewise, how do you handle something say, Clark looking at the milk carton with Dick's picture on it, when, as you've shown a few pages earlier, they're still in the car from the initial abduction. I mean - that really didn't make sense...did that raise any hackles for you?

JL: No, not really. There's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief that's required in every fictional story whether it's presented in comic book, novel or film format.

You know, there is a difference between "suspension of disbelief" and something that's clearly impossible even in the context of the story.

We suspend belief by accepting a man dressed up as a bat -- not the unexplained alteration of time and space.

[Kamandi2]

Originally Posted by Jim Lee

I want to create a much larger body of work and I figure I have a good 13 years left in me - and that's a stretch of time I don't want to squander.

Cool. That will get us to All-Star Batman and Robin # 18 or so in time for Neal Adams to come on board unless he has retired at that point

[joem26]

I'm a long time fan of Jim Lee and I still think he is one of the best artists out there. However, I agree with others that he shouldn't be overcommitting himself, but my guess is it's because he's too nice of a guy.

As far as Frank and the writing: I'm intrigued and am willing to see how it pans out. I certainly like it better than Dark Knight Strikes Again. For those of you who don't like it, don't read it. It's one thing to express your opinion whether you like it or not, but to bash creators because their work doesn't match what you want is pretty lame.

I'd still like to know if Frank was told to rewrite a bunch of issues. Don't forget he's also working (supposedly) on Sin City 2 as well as writing and directing the Spirit. That has to account for some of the delay.

[350z]

Whether people like Jim Lee or not, it's nice to see a creator (especially one of Jim's magnitude) stand up and face the criticism and be honest about the short-comings of his productivity. Hopefully, he can get back on schedule and get more work out...

[Scorned1]

Jim Lee, you sir are a class act. Anyone else would be saying "F" the fans. Jim is actually taking the heat head on instead of like other people we all knows. People like Bryan Hitch, Joe Mad., Whilce Portacio, J. Scott Campbell to name a few. Jim isn't abandoning the projects he is on. He's making the best as it can be for us all. So please everyone just lay off the man.