ADAM ARNOLD ON AOI HOUSE

[MattBrady]

by Benjamin Ong Pang Kean

It is not uncommon for popular webcomics to migrate from the world wide web to print. Fred Gallagher's Megatokyo, Scott Kurtz's PVP, Jerry Holkins and Mike Krahulik's Penny Arcade, and Mike Schwark and Ron Kaulfersch of Pseudome Studio's Van Von Hunter are just some of the examples of webcomics that have been and will be printed by various publishers.

While most of those mentioned have been serialized online for quite a number of years before going to print, Adam Arnold’s Aoi House was first serialized as a 36-episode webmanga written by Arnold with art by Jim Jimenez from January 24 to April 15, 2005. It was then relaunched, with new artist Shiei on board, by Seven Seas Entertainment, first as a serialized webmanga on Seven Seas’ website in late May 2005, and soon to be published as an original English language (OEL) manga.

Aoi House is a comedy webmanga in the spirit of Love Hina, The Real World and Comic Party. It follows the trials and tribulations of two down-on-their-luck college boys who join an anime club dominated by crazed yaoi fangirls.

With the anticipated release of the first volume scheduled to be in comic book stores on May 31, Newsarama.com sat down with Arnold to discuss about bringing his creation from web to print.

Newsarama: Let's go back to the beginning. How and when did the idea for Aoi House first come to you?

Adam Arnold: How Aoi House managed to come into existence is really like one of those weird cosmic alignments that only happens once in a lifetime. See, there were a lot of factors that led to its creation. The biggest one was that my work on Animefringe: Online Anime Magazine (the popular webzine that I co-created and ran from January 2000-December 2005) brought me to the attention of Seven Seas back in September 2004. They needed a website that would be maintained on a daily basis. I knew just the people to get it built and I was excited to try my hand at a site that updated daily. I got to know Jason DeAngelis, Seven Seas’ president, and asked him if I could pitch a story idea and he was all for it.

I didn’t just rush right out and toss a proposal together, though. I actually waited a bit and thought about what type of story I wanted to tell. One thing I always wanted to do was tell a story about an American anime club that’s run by fangirls, because that’s just not something that’s ever really been seen before.

My original concept was pretty much nothing like the series that eventually became Aoi House. For one, it was originally envisioned as a shoujo romance manga set in an anime club, but the cast also was very different. Jason liked the basic concept about an anime club, but he wanted something a bit more shonen... so, he asked me if I could make it into
a harem comedy! A bit of tinkering later and I had a proposal and cast that was nearly like the one you see today.



NRAMA: Back then, how much were you into webcomics?

AA: At the time, I was working at a really horrible job at a call center doing Internet tech support and you weren’t “technically” allowed to surf the internet. But I was one of their best employees and kinda knew how to buck the system. Well, I’d secretly surf the net, send e-mails, and write articles and stuff the entire time I was there—on calls and off! So, yes, webcomics were part of what kept me sane. My all-time favorite webcomic has to be Penny Arcade just because it appeals to that gamer side of me. Other webcomics I followed tended to be Ctrl+Alt+Del, PVP and the like.

NRAMA: And manga? Having co-created Animefringe, manga must have been in your blood, correct?

AA: I’ve been involved in anime fandom for a long time (since June 1997) and what really made me an otaku was my obsession for Sailor Moon and Tenchi Muyo! Pretty much from the start, I was watching anime and reading manga. Today, I literally have an 18-foot wall in my room with nothing but anime DVDs and manga running down it. Not sure if I have more manga than your average Waldenbooks, but my anime collection puts any Suncoast to shame. In fact, back in January, I did up a full tour of my room that you can see here. Just don’t ask me how much money I spent on all that... I don’t want to even think about it!

As far as series go, I tend to follow a bit of everything from Oh My Goddess! to Kare Kano... and I’m also huge into American comic books (especially Superman, Batman and The Legion of Super-Heroes) and have been since I was little. It was my work on Animefringe: Online Anime Magazine that really made me into the person I am today and actually got me into journalism and the manga business proper. I did English adaptation work for Love Hina, A.I. Love You, G Gundam, Pita-Ten and a few others and I’m currently overseeing Seven Seas release of Boogiepop as the editor of that. So, yeah... lots of manga influences.

NRAMA: Impressive. So, how do you merge the two and make it unique with Aoi House?

AA: Well, my original intention wasn’t to create a webmanga. That was actually a necessary side effect. You see, back in December 2004, Seven Seas was really unsure that the series concept would even sell as a manga. So, we did something pretty innovative and that was to actually launch the series as a Gomanga.com exclusive webmanga first, see what the response would be, and then consider a print version later. It was really the path I had to take to see the series get made. When you enter uncharted territory, you’ve gotta be willing to compromise and hope for the best. In Aoi House’s case, everything worked out in the end.

To answer your question, though, I didn’t really strive to merge a webcomic and manga together. When I first wrote the series, I wrote each installment as a self-contained piece with joke a page that would continue the story on into the next installment. When we relaunched it from the ground up, I was able to write it in a way you’d actually write the series in screenplay format. So instead of me writing everything panel by panel and forcing the artist to draw it a certain way, writing a series as a screenplay allows the artist to become the director for the series and decide the pace and panel structure on their end. What’s cool about Aoi House, though, is that even though I’m not writing it with a gag a day pacing anymore... Shiei is still able to draw it where something awesome happens each and every page.

NRAMA: What is it like to be working on your own OEL manga?

AA: Oh, it’s a blast! The way we’ve decided to showcase the series on Gomanga.com has really put me right there with all the readers and that allows Shiei and I to interact with them on a daily basis and hear their thoughts and off-the-wall theories about what’ll happen next!

NRAMA: How do you satisfy the manga fan in you while also presenting something fresh to other manga readers out there?

AA: Ah, the cool thing about writing Aoi House is that it’s a series about anime fans... so I can put in all my own interests like my obsession with “Dance Dance Revolution” and get away with it. I’m writing what I’d like to see, Shiei’s getting to put in stuff she likes, and it’s really resonating with the readers. So I guess we’re doing something right!

Really, though, the freshness comes from telling a story that American anime and manga fans can relate to. It’s a harem comedy that’s set in America and it’s about fandom, so that’s a first in and of itself. But it’s also relatable to both male and female readers in the same way that Japanese series like Chobits, Comic Party or Love Hina found a way to be relatable to readers of both genders.

NRAMA: What’s so unique about Seven Seas’ website that allows for a smoother transition from web to comic?

AA: The thing that makes Seven Seas’ website Gomanga.com unique is that we use it to preview our series to help build interest in the print volumes. The way the manga market is now, you can’t just throw a book out there and expect it to sell. You have to build a fan base first.

Another big thing about the way we kicked Aoi House off was that each and every installment comes with Aoi Notes, which is basically my own personal blog where I talk about everything from the series itself to the stuff I collect. So, when we relaunched Aoi House with Shiei on board as the artist, we knew that the existing readers were really excited to see what we had up our sleeve. I mean, right from the start we promised that the relaunch would be from the ground up and it'd show the series in a different light and even crazier light. So even thought the series was going to eventually see a print release, we knew that it wouldn't have been fair to not continue the series online also. So we picked up in May by running the series in our usual page every Monday/Wednesday/Friday update style. We even had the J Borthers create a theme song for the series as a special treat for everyone.

Since Aoi House is a comedy series, it’s easy to get drawn into it... whereas an action series is a slow burn that requires at least a month to get people’s interest up. Obviously, Gomanga.com serializes a number of different series (currently Aoi House is joined by Destiny’s Hand, Ravenskull and the colorized Blade for Barter). Most of those series are only a few chapters and then we change them out when the print volume comes out, but Aoi House is different... we’re going to keep running it.

NRAMA: So, looking at the way things are with today’s market especially with regards to new and untested properties, webcomics/webmanga was the way to go with this from the beginning?

AA: As I mentioned before, it’s really the best possible way to build a fan base and get people excited about a series. Plus, if you run a series on the web on a Monday/Wednesday/Friday update schedule... then you always have your readers coming back for more!

NRAMA: So, getting this from web to print was the next step then? What's the difference between doing this as a webcomic/webmanga and putting it to print?

AA: Well, there really isn’t much that difference in the way the series is being created. I basically start with a script that’s written a lot like a screenplay done scene by scene, Shiei takes that and works her magic, we get Jon to letter it, and then we put up the inked and lettered pages on Gomanga.com each Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

NRAMA: How is the print version different from the web version?

AA: What’ll set the print version apart are a few big things... the biggest of which is that it’ll be fully toned. A lot of people never realize that we run the pages untoned on the site, so they’re in for a real treat when the print volume comes out May 31, 2006.

Another big thing that we’re doing is doing a few little “director’s cut” type tweaks in the form of revised dialogue and extra pages being added.

Plus, there will be a ton of never-before-seen omake content including character sketches and bios.

Plus, we’re working on including a bonus page with an Aoi House themed word search and membership card.

[b]NRAMA[b/]: The print version will see art by Shiei, who was also the artist on Seven Seas' other manga, Amazing Agent Luna. How did she come into the creative picture?

AA: It pretty much stems from a single piece of fan art that she did of Morgan with little chibi versions of Alex and Sandy on her head.

That single image really resonated with people and she really loved where the series was heading. So her enthusiasm and love for the characters was really the deciding factor.

NRAMA: So, for those who'll be checking this out for the first time, what is the basic premise?

AA: In a nutshell, the story is about two straight guys named Alex and Sandy that get kicked out of their college dorm due to the antics of their troublemaking hamster, Echiboo, and with nowhere else to turn, they are forced to move into an anime club full of crazed yaoi fangirls calling the shots. If I said anything else, then I’d be ruining my own jokes!

NRAMA: Who do you base Alexis "Alex" Roberts and Sandy Grayson on?

AA: Hmm... they’re kind of both me taken to opposite extremes. Alex looks kind of like me, but doesn’t really have my personality. Sandy looks absolutely nothing like me and is every bit the otaku as I am. That’s how they started out, but all the characters really end up taking on a life of their own as the story progresses.

NRAMA: Going forward, what have you planned for fans of the Aoi House webcomic/webmanga in the coming months?

AA: Episode 7 just concluded the first week of May and the outcome of the big “Dance Dance Revolution” showdown at the arcade is going to majorly factor into the next story arc, which kicks off the second volume.

Right now, though, we’ve got a really special treat for our fans and that’s a special Aoi House-themed side-story called “Fruit Cake Fantasy” that Final Fantasy fans are absolutely going to love. After that, we’re going to pick up where Vol. 1 ends, but you’ll just have to check out Gomanga.com to see what happens next.

Oh, before I go, I do want to remind everyone that Aoi House is appearing each month in Newtype USA as a series of all-new color Aoi House 4-koma gag strips. You don’t want to miss those as they aren’t going to be reprinted for a while.

To check out the web version of Aoi House, click here. The first volume of Aoi House from Seven Seas is currently in comic shops and will soon be in bookstores.

[ETS]

wow, I hope no one buys that crap.

[Reliant]

I have been continually impressed by the stuff Seven Seas has been releasing, and I do consider Amazing Agent Luna among my favorite manga titles period--so Shiel's artwork alone is enough to sell me on Aoi House. But being a total sucker for harem comedies anyway, I'm definitely looking out for this one when it hits the shelves.

Kewl beans...

[Dildo_Baggins]

I don't wanna troll, but that art and story feel so...generic. There is better nissei-comi stuff out there.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by ETS

wow, I hope no one buys that crap.

Okay, that's your opinion. I actually find it kinda funny, even though I'm not into manga at all. Of course, I actually read the whole thing online, so I have an informed opinion.

[BurgundyTears]

AA: I’ve been involved in anime fandom for a long time (since June 1997) and what really made me an otaku was my obsession for Sailor Moon and Tenchi Muyo!

A fellow Tenchi Muyou! appreciater! A good enough reason to check out his webcomic.

From what I've read so far it seems like a lighthearted and fun book.

[350z]

Originally Posted by ETS

wow, I hope no one buys that crap.

Damn. That's cold.

[MIKEON-LINE]

Originally Posted by 350z

Damn. That's cold.

And justifiable. I don't like knocking anyone else's hard work, but come on - no matter who on the planet does them, these sorts of comics are disgustingly nerdy and an embarrasing insult to all of comicdom.

Look, there are positive, healthy fantasies, and there are unhealthy ones. A superhero story about a person who uses their situation in life to help others and tries to make the world a better place is good. (As is imagining yourself doing similar activities.) A story about two (homophobic*) geeks who live in a house filled with flirty, horny underwear-clad girls who are not above tying them chairs and making them watch gay porn is not - especially when it's supposed to be a comedy comic and isn't the least bit funny. Or original.

Don't get the wrong idea; I'm not exactly the King of Cool myself, but gee whiz some things are just plain pathetic - which is fitting, as some people are too. (And sometimes the two go hand-in-hand: I' ve known quite a few; probably not coincidentally one of them was BIG into Love Hina, and I have no doubt that that probably stemmed from the fact that he was - no exaggeration - an arrogant, nerdy loser who no one liked.)

I'm NOT going to say that the creator and/or his readers may also fall into this demographic and pursue this sort of junk as a way of dealing with their social/sexual failings. I WILL say that I would not be the least bit surprised if that were indeed the case, however.


*Again, don't get the wrong idea: I honestly feel the "homophobia" label is tossed around way too often, but I do feel it's justified here. If the characters weren't homophobic, they wouldn't really have a problem with yaoi/gay porn. Not would they be so (obviously) horrified by it. Yes, it's played to comic effect - too bad it's not original, clever, or packing any actual humour.

It's just, "Hey they're being forced to watch yaoi and they're horrified LOL LOL LOL!!!!" It's unfunny not because it's offensive or anything, it's unfunny because it's unfunny.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally Posted by MIKEON-LINE

And justifiable. I don't like knocking anyone else's hard work, but come on - no matter who on the planet does them, these sorts of comics are disgustingly nerdy and an embarrasing insult to all of comicdom.

Over 15 million american manga readers and hundreds of millions of readers worldwide disagree with you. Generally reading manga is far more socially accepted than reading superhero stories, so if anything they're taking away some of the stigma of reading comics. Not everyone is so uptight about that the comics they read have to be anything beyond eaily accessible lighthearted fun and escapist, instead of grim, heartless and pretentious.

Look, there are positive, healthy fantasies, and there are unhealthy ones. A superhero story about a person who uses their situation in life to help others and tries to make the world a better place is good. (As is imagining yourself doing similar activities.)

I heartily agree about wishing to help others and make the world a better place being a healthy fantasy, but running around in exhibitionist underwear or having supremacist power-fantasies probably isn't.

A story about two (homophobic*) geeks who live in a house filled with flirty, horny underwear-clad girls who are not above tying them chairs and making them watch gay porn is not - especially when it's supposed to be a comedy comic and isn't the least bit funny. Or original.

I haven't read the comic yet so I don't know if it's any good, but I think you seem a bit uptight about these things. I'd recommend giving it a chance before off-hand condemning it on principle though.

Don't get the wrong idea; I'm not exactly the King of Cool myself, but gee whiz some things are just plain pathetic which is fitting, as some people are too.

Pathetic? Like generalising and haughtily condemning a whole lot of people who find enjoyment in something you don't?

(And sometimes the two go hand-in-hand: I' ve known quite a few; probably not coincidentally one of them was BIG into Love Hina, and I have no doubt that that probably stemmed from the fact that he was - no exaggeration - an arrogant, nerdy loser who no one liked.)

I don't think you're the right guy to complain about arrogance, especially not after using the social-darwinian 'loser' term. Nor are comic-book readers generally more well-adjusted than manga readers. In any case while I don't care for Love Hina myself there are many millions of appreciaters worldwide and I don't see how digging a mostly kind-hearted comedy would automatically equal nasty qualities. If you want to draw a connection with people who wallow in nihilistic material that's another thing.

I'm NOT going to say that the creator and/or his readers may also fall into this demographic and pursue this sort of junk as a way of dealing with their social/sexual failings. I WILL say that I would not be the least bit surprised if that were indeed the case, however.

There's that callous condemning arrogance again. It seems you have a big problem with lighthearted manga. Most people generally get their balms and respites from the world whenever they can and if they feel a bit better from reading manga or superhero stories then more power to them. I don't really believe in condemning any non-evil people, especially not before thoroughly understanding them and their situation.

*Again, don't get the wrong idea: I honestly feel the "homophobia" label is tossed around way too often, but I do feel it's justified here. If the characters weren't homophobic, they wouldn't really have a problem with yaoi/gay porn. Not would they be so (obviously) horrified by it.

Actually most heterosexuals would feel extremely uncomfortable with actually viewing gay porn. It doesn't mean they hate homosexuals. It does actually seem like you'd like to attribute the term way too easily, especially in the case of something you have a problem with from the start.

Yes, it's played to comic effect - too bad it's not original, clever, or packing any actual humour.

I'd have to agree that it wasn't a particularly funny joke, but that doesn't mean none of the rest is. As for being original, virtually nothing is, certainly not most of the overinflated superhero market. What's important is how well you carry your concept off.

It's just, "Hey they're being forced to watch yaoi and they're horrified LOL LOL LOL!!!!" It's unfunny not because it's offensive or anything, it's unfunny because it's unfunny.

Well, as above you seem to take this way too seriously. Not everything has to be overly sophisticated to be enjoyable. I'm sorry if I came across a bit hard here, but you just sound incredibly unfair and derisive towards a whole lot of nice people, as well as an entire genre of storytelling. The non-perverted (rape and pedophilia endorsing), non-nihilistic (hateful power-tripping bratty extremist murder-addicts) manga readers tend to be kind and friendly. Light comedy appreciaters in particular.

[MIKEON-LINE]

(Again, I'm never usually like this. I kinda felt like ranting tonight, and my apologies for being a bit of a blowhard.)

Originally Posted by BurgundyTears

Over 15 million american manga readers and hundreds of millions of readers worldwide disagree with you.

What are you talking about? I like manga; I'm talking about the subject matter, setting, etc. I feel the same way about that baseball thing that Chuck Austen wrote, because of how lame/sexist/etc. it was.

I heartily agree about wishing to help others and make the world a better place being a healthy fantasy, but running around in exhibitionist underwear or having supremacist power-fantasies probably isn't.

There's a fine line there. Fantasising about being outnumbered in your living conditions by scantily-clad, very horny members of the opposite sex doesn't really have much of a line. There's nothing positive about anyone imagining themselves living in a harem with willing participants.

I haven't read the comic yet so I don't know if it's any good, but I think you seem a bit uptight about these things. I'd recommend giving it a chance before off-hand condemning it on principle though.

Not bad advice, but I did read each of the sample panels, and frankly if that's the best foot that can be put forward...

Pathetic? Like generalising and haughtily condemning a whole lot of people who find enjoyment in something you don't?

If you're talking about manga, again, missed point. If you're talking about harem-comedy comics, hey maybe different strokes for different folks; but at the same time, some things are so twisted (snuff films, guro/tentacle/rape anime porn and the like) that some condemnation may actually be justified. Not of the people, perhaps, but certainly of what they enjoy.

Now, there is a HUGE difference between those icky things and this, but at the same time it's still something that from some perspectives can easily and justifiably be called despicable. For differing reasons, of course.

I don't think you're the right guy to complain about arrogance, especially not after using the social-darwinian 'loser' term. Nor are comic-book readers generally more well-adjusted than manga readers. In any case while I don't care for Love Hina myself there are many millions of appreciaters worldwide

"Loser" is a colloquial term; it's a cold hard fact that some people fail at life because of their lack of effort in a particular area. I use it here because it's accurate; you want another example? Again, I've seen firsthand about 5 people who willingly chose dead-end lifestyles where the only things they have outside of a job is the weekly university anime club meeting. And then, they don't even talk to anybody or even watch what's being shown; they walk in, set up their laptops, and proceed to watch their own anime show for the entire 4 hours. Or play a game, again for the whole duration of the showing. They don't have any friends (really; that's another tangent but it is the truth), they don't want to talk to anybody, and they've never had a date. And they dig Love Hina and other harem shows because they feature uber-nerd characters, like them, surrounded by girls who throw themselves at them and...you get it. Some people are voluntary losers who live pathetic lives and wallow in their patheitcness with stuff like this. NOT EVERYBODY, sure - but from my experiences (many others than what I just wrote) the numbers can be assumed to be sizeable.

(Based on what I've seen over the last 10+ years, I'm sure as heck willing to assume it.)

There's that callous condemning arrogance again. It seems you have a big problem with lighthearted manga. Most people generally get their balms and respites from the world whenever they can and if they feel a bit better from reading manga or superhero stories then more power to them. I don't really believe in condemning any non-evil people, especially not before thoroughly understanding them and their situation.

You call it "callous condemning arrogance", I call it "telling the truth because some people need to hear it." It's tough love, man - if someone is doing something wrong, they need to be told, and sometimes using harsh words are the only way they'll hear and take action. (Accepting who you are is one thing; selling yourself short due to lack of effort and taking pride in mediocrity is not.) Regarding the context of the quote you're replying to, see above. I've attended many comic conventions and anime film festivals and the like, and seen WAAAAYYY to many socially-maladjusted, total nerds who dig this sort of stuff for all the wrong reasons.

Actually most heterosexuals would feel extremely uncomfortable with actually viewing gay porn. It doesn't mean they hate homosexuals. It does actually seem like you'd like to attribute the term way too easily, especially in the case of something you have a problem with from the start.

Disagreed - unless the person in question does not care for hetero porn either. Why? If one can watch hetero porn/erotica and is confident in their sexuality, then gay porn should not disgust them, merely not arose them. You know, "This isn't really my thing." and that's it. If they are disgusted and resistant, then they are afraid of it. And why would they be afraid of it? Because they're afraid that if they don't resist it mentally/and or physically, it will mean that others may perceive them as gay, or that they themselves may be gay. And that's homophobia: FEAR of things, people, or gender concepts which are not heterosexual. Not hate - FEAR. (Also, if you're going to use reverse psychology, try to break down the concept instead of merely turning the accusation around.)

I'd have to agree that it wasn't a particularly funny joke, but that doesn't mean none of the rest is. As for being original, virtually nothing is, certainly not most of the overinflated superhero market. What's important is how well you carry your concept off.

Again, if those 7 pages are the best stuff they could submit, it's not a good sign. 1 or 2 pages? I'd be far more lenient. But 7...that's plenty of chances for a good first impression, and it doesn't leave one.

Well, as above you seem to take this way too seriously. Not everything has to be overly sophisticated to be enjoyable. I'm sorry if I came across a bit hard here, but you just sound incredibly unfair and derisive towards a whole lot of nice people, as well as an entire genre of storytelling. The non-perverted (rape and pedophilia endorsing), non-nihilistic (hateful power-tripping bratty extremist murder-addicts) manga readers tend to be kind and friendly. Light comedy appreciaters in particular.

Regarding the serious accusation: I never make a claim or statement without offering detail. I want to put effort into things.

Regarding the "Not everything has to be overly sophisticated to be enjoyable." One, that's totally irrelevant, AND misses the point. One, I enjoy simple things in equal moderation with more sophisticated stories, and two, the point was that this harem stuff is the bottom of the barrel, especially in the samples provided.

The rest of your points in the paragraph (I don't like saying this) are first and foremost, irrelevant - and are based on the assumption that I don't like manga, which again is irrelevant AND false.

If one doesn't like something, one shouldn't read it, and though it is presumptuous to dismiss something based on 7 pages of sample art, I've given my reasons why I feel this is probably going to be unfunny junk that I won't like and don't want to read.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally Posted by MIKEON-LINE

(Again, I'm never usually like this. I kinda felt like ranting tonight, and my apologies for being a bit of a blowhard.)

You do seem unwarrantedly upset about this yes.

What are you talking about? I like manga; I'm talking about the subject matter, setting, etc. I feel the same way about that baseball thing that Chuck Austen wrote, because of how lame/sexist/etc. it was.

I'm talking about that a whole lot of people do enjoy this type of light fluff.

There's a fine line there. Fantasising about being outnumbered in your living conditions by scantily-clad, very horny members of the opposite sex doesn't really have much of a line. There's nothing positive about anyone imagining themselves living in a harem with willing participants.

No but there's nothing negative either. It's neutral, harmless and very common to fantasize about having several attractive willing partners who appreciate you. Actually loosing relation to reality and expecting yourself to be surrounded by them in real life is another matter.

In any case given that I just had statistics presented to me that around 1 in 4 men fantasize about raping women ( Bader, Michael J. (2002). Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies (1st ed.). New York:St. Martin's Press pp. 112-113 ), or the overwhelming amount of people who become twisted hate-addicts online, there are lots of people around who by far more deserves your anger and contempt. Comparatively this is completely harmless.

Not bad advice, but I did read each of the sample panels, and frankly if that's the best foot that can be put forward...

Says who? That read like the start of the manga. Read through all of the web-material and think through if it's really worth making such a big deal about. Love Hina actually vaguely features some lolicon tendencies, so I can see why you'd find that offensive, but light harem comedies in general?

If you're talking about manga, again, missed point. If you're talking about harem-comedy comics, hey maybe different strokes for different folks; but at the same time, some things are so twisted (snuff films, guro/tentacle/rape anime porn and the like) that some condemnation may actually be justified. Not of the people, perhaps, but certainly of what they enjoy.

Now, there is a HUGE difference between those icky things and this, but at the same time it's still something that from some perspectives can easily and justifiably be called despicable. For differing reasons, of course.

Well condemning the cathegories you mentioned is one of my favourite hobbies (see the second Alan Moore's Lost Girls thread), but as you mentioned there are 10 universes of difference between harem/love comedies and vile 'rape-and-torture-for-entertainment' crap, so you seem to be focusing your anger into the entirely wrong area. It also sounds like you don't just condemn harem comedies but the people who watch them for not fitting into a pre-fit mold.

To not let harsh curcumstances be corrupting and channel into sadism, ruthlessness and hatred you usually need some sort of healing fantasy which gives you love, respite and nourishment. Harem comedies partially fill that niche and frequently give potential for a very comically entertaining set-up. Stuff like my own favourite, Tenchi Muyou (OAV) also feature a lot of very strong interesting & entertaining female characters and is well-appreciated by women and men alike without anyone taking offense. There's some very entertaining pleasant material out there.

To be completely honest (I didn't want to offend the manga author, but with the current twist in the thread it seems a bit late for that) some of the jokes above were a bit ecchi for my taste but I still wouldn't call it female degradation, especially given that ordinary manga is equal opportunity, with different cathegories catering to both male and female sexual interests.

"Loser" is a colloquial term;

It's a condemning smug term of derision stating that certain innocent people have less innate worth than others and should be spit at. That it's become commonplace is just showing problems with the mentalities of certain societies.

it's a cold hard fact that some people fail at life because of their lack of effort in a particular area.

Or maybe because they're so broken down that they don't have any energy left or don't have the same innate ability to manage themselves as others or are very awkward socially etc. Being autistic myself I can certainly relate to having limitations in your brain functions with matters other take for a given and, yes, I have intensely fought against that handicap all of my life, but you have to spend several times as much energy as everyone else to compensate. Sure it's great if you can find the motivation and these things come much easier for you than others, but be happy for yourself rather than glad to get an excuse to feel superior.

I use it here because it's accurate; you want another example? Again, I've seen firsthand about 5 people who willingly chose dead-end lifestyles where the only things they have outside of a job is the weekly university anime club meeting.

They certainly spot-on sound autistic to me. It's a much more common handicap than people think. I agree that it would be great if everyone could feel confidence in what they want to do and set themselves to do it but you're not going to help anyone by making them feel worse. At best you're going to help pushing them into using intense pain and shame as a motivating factor into giving every quota of time and energy into straining themselves until they drop dead.

Having had parents and surroundings who intensely did exactly that to me in complete lack of understanding for my handicap I basically missed out all aspects of life beyond excelling during my entire childhood and sure I managed to push myself into getting a genius level iq in a couple of areas and got a deep-rooted sense of insufficiency and self-hate which constantly makes me feel a need to better myself, but actually doing something because you enjoyed it instead of perceiving it as endless neccessary torture became an alien concept to me until just recently. The only way to truly make progress with making life bearable for the autistic is to try to fan their enjoyment and interest in doing something worthwhile (like different branches of research for example). Those who get that privilege increase in ability much easier than those forcing themselves.

And then, they don't even talk to anybody or even watch what's being shown; they walk in, set up their laptops, and proceed to watch their own anime show for the entire 4 hours. Or play a game, again for the whole duration of the showing. They don't have any friends (really; that's another tangent but it is the truth), they don't want to talk to anybody, and they've never had a date.

So because most autistic people can't quite connect with the world and social interaction is very overwhelming and painful to them due to lacking in certain brain functions they are inferior and should feel worthless all the time? Or even non-autistic lonely people who lack confidence and skill for that matter.? They're inferior and worth every derision because they haven't had a date?

They already feel bad enough about their situation as is, but speaking for myself taking new social contacts is almost impossible to structure up in your mind. It's hard to fathom for a person who does this automatically, but it's not just a choice. Many of them actually lack the functions which handle this. Most of these people would love to get some nice friends, but really can't conceptualise any way to take contact without giving off lots of weird signals, so to avoid feeling ashamed and keep some dignity after endless failures and humiliation they don't even try after a while. Also even if you get good friends, as I managed to in my student dorm for example, it's very hard and tiresome to perform the usual activities related to such; Parties, going to the pub and the like. As usual I did it anyway, but it never quite made sense in my head how to take in/understand/appreciate the situation or handle it when I did, no matter how hard I tried.

It's always been like that and I've never accepted it at all and tried again...and failed...and tried again and so on ad nauseum since I was 5 and always continuing to not get what I want from life no matter how hard I try. I'm a bit of an odd (autistic) person like that. Hating my limitations so much that I always strive to overcome them instead of settling down accepting them. Most people (autistic or not) would have given up, or grown corrupt many many years back for going through far less pain and challenge. Or at least that's my experience from other cases who had it much easier with far less (outside or self-inflicted) oppression and still gave up. The problem is that this kind of endeavor eventually wears you down completely.

And they dig Love Hina and other harem shows because they feature uber-nerd characters, like them, surrounded by girls who throw themselves at them and...you get it.

Yes I get that they are pained lonely people who have no ability to intuitively understand the world or human interaction in many areas, (but frequently have ridiculously high intelligence in a few of them) and that you hate them, call them pathetic, losers and nerds for it. The 'nerds' who actually manage to do research or handle other intellectual work despite very severe handicaps, have fought incredibly hard to even reach that state. As an autistic you're basically constructed to be able to handle a few subjects ridiculously well, but virtually no ability whatsoever outside that and it's very painful to make your way in society in that situation.

Some people are voluntary losers who live pathetic lives and wallow in their patheitcness with stuff like this. NOT EVERYBODY, sure - but from my experiences (many others than what I just wrote) the numbers can be assumed to be sizeable.

You're calling a whole lot of people less fortunate than yourself pathetic. Not everyone has your affinity for the neccessary areas. I suppose there are people who have no genetic or traumatic excuse and just lazily and irresponsibly lie around because they feel like it (though I've never met any of this cathegory who don't go around partying, gambling etc all the time and so I can't relate to it), but there are many more who do and have to take some measures to balance out the strain. It usually takes a whole lot of courage and strength just to go through the day living life like a caged animal. Until you've walked a life in their shoes, with the same handicaps and strictly viewing them from a perspective of privilege you have absolutely no right to judge.

(Based on what I've seen over the last 10+ years, I'm sure as heck willing to assume it.)

From the perspective that everyone should have the same natural affinity as yourself. If they started to condemn you for not being as skilled in the areas they were good at that would seem unfair right? This is exactly what you're doing except that those areas are less damaging to your wellbeing so what you're doing is far worse.

You call it "callous condemning arrogance", I call it "telling the truth because some people need to hear it." It's tough love, man - if someone is doing something wrong, they need to be told, and sometimes using harsh words are the only way they'll hear and take action.

Well, as seen in my answers above love is the absolutely furthest thing you're giving out when condemning those less fortunate than yourself. At best you're going to help them use all of their intense pain and shame into a focused driving force which will eventually burn them out and make existence even more unbearable while they're still pushing themselves with that kind of fervour. At worst you're just going to break them even further. Callous condemning arrogance seems appropriate.

(Accepting who you are is one thing; selling yourself short due to lack of effort and taking pride in mediocrity is not.)

On that I strongly agree, but then I'm pretty screwed up on that front.

Regarding the context of the quote you're replying to, see above. I've attended many comic conventions and anime film festivals and the like, and seen WAAAAYYY to many socially-maladjusted, total nerds who dig this sort of stuff for all the wrong reasons.

Well if you talk about people who dress up like their favourite characters or are into the pornographic or sadistic powertripping aspects of it I might agree. However that has little to do with spitting derisive terms at and condemning people simply for lacking the ability for aspects of social interaction, enjoying a certain genre of escapism or never having the fortune of getting a girlfriend.

Disagreed - unless the person in question does not care for hetero porn either. Why? If one can watch hetero porn/erotica and is confident in their sexuality, then gay porn should not disgust them, merely not arose them. You know, "This isn't really my thing." and that's it. If they are disgusted and resistant, then they are afraid of it. And why would they be afraid of it? Because they're afraid that if they don't resist it mentally/and or physically, it will mean that others may perceive them as gay, or that they themselves may be gay. And that's homophobia: FEAR of things, people, or gender concepts which are not heterosexual. Not hate - FEAR. (Also, if you're going to use reverse psychology, try to break down the concept instead of merely turning the accusation around.)

You're generalising feeling uneasy when too blatantly confronted with homosexuality as something everyone forces upon themselves. To most people it seems instinctively unnatural through being at odds with their own upbringing or through innately feeling emotionally uneasy when forced to conceptualise a to them alien sexual practice. Sexuality isn't as objective as other areas, most people can't just watch gay porn and feel the same way as they would about a really boring movie. It's a very intimate matter which automatically strikes at the core of your emotional area and whether something seems possible to completely digest at that level or not. Also there's a big difference between 'just' viewing straight porn and watching graphic yaoy bishonen romance. The latter would be a lot harder to handle for the average man than just some 'humpa-dump' plotless naked wrestling match.

However most men have also have intellectually and ethically personally fought with this not to have it affect their views of homosexuals as just people with a small irrelevant difference in their make-up. Demanding that everyone should be able to watch some gay porn without feeling bad just to show solidarity seems to demand too much and certainly doesn't warrant throwing around 'homophobe' in their direction, lumping them together with people who actually hate, hurt and persecute innocent homosexuals. As you say, when you get more sexual experiences with women and interact with more gays it gradually wears off for some (though I've met lots of decent very sexually assured heterosexual people, who despite gaining these experiences still feel emotionally uneasy when it turns too blatant), but it seems very unfair to force people forward at a pace which they're not ready for and would scar them emotionally.

Personally I don't like any porn at all. It's too gross and vulgar without any trace of eroticism or beauty, but as long as people do their best to be as tolerant towards gay people as they are towards anyone else I don't see why you have to demand that they aren't allowed to feel any apprehension at all when forced to watch blatant sexual activities of a nature highly alien to their being. Mutual respect is neccessary. I've had a few gay friends and my godfather is gay as well, but they've never forced myself to hear every intimate detail about their private life.

To use an example, I used to be scared of homosexuals in high-school, due to not understanding much about the world in general, being emotionally about 7 and having all the other usual confusions and pains common for autistic people, along with my personal yoke of straining myself too hard. A homo- or bi-sexual guy at school (it was a bit unclear which afterhand) took offense at that, somehow overlooking that there were lots more evil people around (blatant nazi- and fascist-sympathisers who wanted to put lots of groups in concentration camps among them) and started an incredibly calculated insidous intense psychological stalking campaign against me together with all his friends where lots of them heavily came on to me and followed me day in and day out combined with lots of other incredibly sadistic-creative harrassment continued for over a year of time. Now obviously a brain-damaged, completely stressed out 7-year old without a trace of machiavellian intelligence couldn't handle intense psychological warfare or anything beyond someone actually attacking him (though I was always extremely good at physically defending myself through martial arts training since I was 7) and turned completely traumatized, high-strung and paranoid for many years from the experience. Going by the psychological evaluation the only thing they achieved was making similar mental damage to what would have been done if they had repeatedly raped me during the entire period. After that I obviously don't care much for forcing people into handling it at a pace which would be emotionally hurtful rather than convincing them about the moral virtue of accepting homosexuals like everyone else and slowly working from there.

Again, if those 7 pages are the best stuff they could submit, it's not a good sign. 1 or 2 pages? I'd be far more lenient. But 7...that's plenty of chances for a good first impression, and it doesn't leave one.

Well, it's the 7 first pages of the book. Though I have to check it out myself before commenting on the quality.

Regarding the serious accusation: I never make a claim or statement without offering detail. I want to put effort into things.

Yes, but putting effort into unwarranted hatred instead of focusing it on people who actually deserve it seems like a waste of energy.

Regarding the "Not everything has to be overly sophisticated to be enjoyable." One, that's totally irrelevant, AND misses the point.

Well, I picked up several points and a lot of people seem to have a problem with manga due to some of it not living up to their (Vertigo-style?) tastes. My apologies for gaining the wrong impression that you disliked this partially because of it being lighthearted.

One, I enjoy simple things in equal moderation with more sophisticated stories

As do I.

and two, the point was that this harem stuff is the bottom of the barrel, especially in the samples provided.

No it isn't. Blood-torture-murder orgies, lolicon and abusive manga are the bottom of the barrel. Normal hentai or crude pornography even lower, with lolicon rape hentai at the lowest of all. Harem comedies are light. harmless escapist fluff enjoyed by many millions which you seem to have a bias against. Check out the Tenchi Muyou OAV for example. It's very creative, enjoyable and entertaining and is widely enjoyed by men and women alike.

The rest of your points in the paragraph (I don't like saying this) are first and foremost, irrelevant - and are based on the assumption that I don't like manga, which again is irrelevant AND false.

Based on the assumption that you don't like lighthearted harem, comedy or romance manga, which a large part of the readership seem to do without showing any discernable twisted or evil traits for it. I've talked to several other Tenchi Muoyo! Ryo-Ohki appreciaters online and on average they've seemed a lot nicer and friendlier than those I've found on the comic book boards (then again I mostly use the Bendis board, Comicon and Newsarama as gauges).

If one doesn't like something, one shouldn't read it, and though it is presumptuous to dismiss something based on 7 pages of sample art, I've given my reasons why I feel this is probably going to be unfunny junk that I won't like and don't want to read.

I can respect your reasons for not liking this particular manga (though it wouldn't hurt reading the rest of it before such extreme reactions), but not that you dismiss the entire genre as the lowest most insulting bottom of the barrel available, or so severely berate people who enjoy and gain respite from it, regardless if they're autistic or othervise.

[Vyper]

MIKEON-LINE, how's the weather on that soapbox?

You have made broad generalizations about a comic and its creators and fans, most of them derogatory, basing then entirely on a few bad experiences you had that were not directly related to the topic. Instead of reading at least some of the material available online (and there is quite a bit) and thus formulating an informed opinion, you instead bashed this comic based on a few sample pages, and then proceeded to to preach about people's lifestyles, throw the term "loser" about, and, in general, making yourself look like an arrogant individual who cannot admin when he's wrong.

"Loser" is a colloquial term; it's a cold hard fact that some people fail at life because of their lack of effort in a particular area.
...
Some people are voluntary losers who live pathetic lives and wallow in their patheitcness with stuff like this. NOT EVERYBODY, sure - but from my experiences (many others than what I just wrote) the numbers can be assumed to be sizeable.

Wow, thank you for that insight.

P.S. FYI, the artist of the comic is a woman. But I'm sure she's a social deviant the just playing out her fantasy of being a nerdy fanboy living in a house filled with horny girls in their underwear, just like you said.