WW PHILLY '08: DC'S SUNDAY CONVERSATION

[MichaelDoran]

Report by Sarah Jaffe

The fans still around on a Sunday afternoon [at WizardWorld: Philadelphia] are the die-hards, DC Executive Editor Dan DiDio said. One fan quipped, “It’s like church.”

So DiDio gathered a group in one of the panel rooms for DC’s Sunday Conversation, an hour-long discussion of what people love about comics. DiDio strolled down the aisle of the room, moderating a lively discussion of people’s favorites and hidden gems, how everyone got into comics, and all the best things about the medium.

To start the ball rolling, he asked people to raise their hands if they’d been reading comics for one year. Then five years, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, forty-five, and even fifty.

The one gentleman who’d been reading comics for forty-five years had bought his first comic, Hulk #1, at his neighborhood drugstore comic rack when he was a kid. Another reader remembered buying comics from coin-operated vending machines.

At the other end of the spectrum : the reader who’d only been into comics for a year—who was in costume as the Flash—got into comics from the Teen Titans.

DiDio then asked if anyone, like him, had given up comics for a while only to return. One man joked that he started reading comics again when Star Trek ended, and that it was Green Arrow that brought him back.

For DiDio himself, it was the Batman TV show that brought him to reading comics, and he noted that you can tell when people started reading comics by who their favorite characters are. “We’re always looking for ways to bring things back,” he said.

To prove his point, he asked about people’s favorite Aquaman, since he said he gets tons of people telling him they know how to fix Aquaman.

One fan noted, “Giant sea horses, gotta love those.”

Another was fascinated by the possibilities of a hand made of water. “Can he breathe his own hand?” he asked.

The question about the strangest character people loved brought up another fun discussion. When a fan said that he loved Azrael, DiDio told a story about an old panel of an old comic that featured Azrael, in costume, in a Volkswagen convertible.

Heroes for Hire and Sgt. Rock writer Billy Tucci’s favorite strange character was Lord Malvolio, which led DiDio to a discussion of the levels of continuity in the DC universe.

The first level, he said, is immutables. “Krypton explodes, Bruce Wayne’s parents die.”
The second are things that are helpful—Barbara Gordon as Batgirl was the example he gave, but not necessarily top-level important.

And the third level are things that happen that don’t work and just kind of get ignored. DiDio quoted a writer as saying, “I’m not going to undo that story, I’m just never going to mention it again.”

Every time a character was mentioned, groups of people clapped or laughed or filled in a missing detail. “There’s always somebody obscure that someone will raise their hand for,” DiDio noted.

He told the story of the Cancelled Comics Cavalcade, a bit of DC history—a book of cancelled DC comics from the late 70s that was published as a Xerox copy, with only 50 issues, that he received when he got his job at DC. Laughing, he said, “I got ‘em, and I read ‘em, and they were crap!”

This led him to ask if there were books people loved that, in hindsight, just weren’t very good. His own story was of a book where the island of Manhattan floated out to the middle of the Atlantic and Hercules had to bring it back. “And even then I knew to ask, ‘What happened to all the bridges and tunnels?’”

Someone else mentioned a Daredevil comic with pictures hanging on Daredevil’s walls. “Why would a blind guy need a picture of his girlfriend?” he asked.

It’s hard to go against people’s expectations, DiDio continued, asking people to picture something bad happening to Bruce Wayne. “Who becomes Batman?” he asked.

“Dick Grayson” was the answer from most of the crowd, aside from a few who thought that Bruce Wayne was the only Batman.

“Batman was born of trauma and tragedy,” one fan said, “And the Robins kept him human.”

Another fan suggested marrying Dick Grayson off, giving him some kids, then having someone slaughter his family so that he could be appropriately dark as Batman.

Many people, like DiDio, got into comics because of a movie or a TV show. The Superman movie, the X-Men animated TV series, and even G.I. Joe were cited.

“Some of the few memories I have of my dad were of him reading me comics,” one fan said. Another related the story of him teaching his teacher what the word “feat” meant, which he had learned from comics, since his teacher had never heard the word before.

People shared stories of buying comics at secondhand shops, with covers cut off, or even stealing them from friends.

One woman, there with her husband, joked that she started reading Green Lantern and kept reading because “he was kinda cute. Gateway!”

She went on to say that she and her husband celebrated their first anniversary by buying comics, going to a bar, and reading comics.

The last question was: “If you could give one comic to someone to convert them, what would it be?”

The answers were a veritable map of great comics, though Vertigo titles featured more prominently here than any other time. Y the Last Man, Sandman, Lucifer, as well as Batman: Year One and The Spirit.

[OM]

...First po[WHAP!]OW!

[regains composure]

...Actually, my first comic was Adventure #317, which explains why the Legion is such an important subject to me when it comes to writing *and* drawing the team with the respect they deserve. Which, of course, is what they're still not getting, and is something I would have loved to have hit Didio with. In lieu of a 2x4, natch

[JETLASH]

I would love to be at one of these. They sound fun. Glad to hear DC is doing these.

[ElijahSnowFan]

why fans should never, never, never, EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE INPUT in the direction of comics:

Another fan suggested marrying Dick Grayson off, giving him some kids, then having someone slaughter his family so that he could be appropriately dark as Batman.

the whole point of Dick Grayson is that his parents were killed right in front of his eyes, just like Batman's, BUT HE'S A DIFFERENT PERSON DOING THE SAME THING. it's called CONTRAST.

God. sometimes you wonder how simple you have to make something.

[SuperSpeedy]

I got into comic characters with the x-men and spiderman cartoons of the 90's. One the first comics I ever bought was Identity Crisis years laters. I brought all 7 at once because I thougth the cover for issue 7 was amazing. I knew nothing about the DC universe other than the obvious stuff that everybody knows. People think that DC books aren't accessible because they are littered with so many characters and story refferences, but to me that's what made it great. You really can understand more than you think if you just pay attention, Final Crisis is the same way despite the naysayers. You don't have to know everything that came before it to know what's happening now. It's fun to meet characters with a back story and put the peices together from there.

The idea that there was so much that I didn't know, so much that I could know, was what made the book exciting. That's what made comic books suddenly exciting. I wanted to know everything.

[Tomwaitsfan]

I love these panels and Didios dedication to do them.

[batmansgirl]

I love this particular panel too. I really hope DC does one of these at Megacon next year. I would pay for two days at Megacon (Saturday and Sunday) if only DC was there to host it.

I want to add my opinion that only ONE person should always be Batman and that's *Bruce Wayne*. Even in the Batman Beyond show, Bruce Wayne was still thinking like Batman.

Speaking of Batman Beyond, I hope we'll be returning to that universe *very* soon... I really miss Terry.

[batmansgirl]

Originally Posted by ElijahSnowFan

why fans should never, never, never, EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE INPUT in the direction of comics:

Another fan suggested marrying Dick Grayson off, giving him some kids, then having someone slaughter his family so that he could be appropriately dark as Batman.

the whole point of Dick Grayson is that his parents were killed right in front of his eyes, just like Batman's, BUT HE'S A DIFFERENT PERSON DOING THE SAME THING. it's called CONTRAST.

God. sometimes you wonder how simple you have to make something.

Exactly!!!

[mrorangesoda]

Originally Posted by ElijahSnowFan

why fans should never, never, never, EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE INPUT in the direction of comics:

Another fan suggested marrying Dick Grayson off, giving him some kids, then having someone slaughter his family so that he could be appropriately dark as Batman.

the whole point of Dick Grayson is that his parents were killed right in front of his eyes, just like Batman's, BUT HE'S A DIFFERENT PERSON DOING THE SAME THING. it's called CONTRAST.

God. sometimes you wonder how simple you have to make something.

With the right tone, it's actually a really funny suggestion. I choose to read it as a joke.

[Johnny Triangles]

Originally Posted by ElijahSnowFan

why fans should never, never, never, EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE INPUT in the direction of comics:

Another fan suggested marrying Dick Grayson off, giving him some kids, then having someone slaughter his family so that he could be appropriately dark as Batman.

the whole point of Dick Grayson is that his parents were killed right in front of his eyes, just like Batman's, BUT HE'S A DIFFERENT PERSON DOING THE SAME THING. it's called CONTRAST.

God. sometimes you wonder how simple you have to make something.

This is exactly what makes current DC comics so bad now....Didio and company think like fanboys. As dumb as that fan's suggestion is, is it any worse than what Didio and company did do to Tim Drake to make him more heroic, which was kill his best friend, kill his dad and kill his girlfriend so that he could become more dark?

[ubuking]

Originally Posted by ElijahSnowFan

why fans should never, never, never, EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE INPUT in the direction of comics:

Another fan suggested marrying Dick Grayson off, giving him some kids, then having someone slaughter his family so that he could be appropriately dark as Batman.

the whole point of Dick Grayson is that his parents were killed right in front of his eyes, just like Batman's, BUT HE'S A DIFFERENT PERSON DOING THE SAME THING. it's called CONTRAST.

God. sometimes you wonder how simple you have to make something.

I agree, but it sounds so crazy and complex that some crazy editor may really go try and do it.
The comment though was from a discussion that seemed to point out that readers, even the companies, want to go on in different, bolder directions. They're something scary, though, about even thinking about seriously killing off (permanently) characters like Superman or Batman. Now-a-days you don't see many new characters wearing a cape. The thing is that good stories can be still be done with them, and we're all glad for that, but sometimes I feel that their image is somewhat intimidating, and deep down we'd like them to step down and let a new generation take over.

[Tymminator]

Originally Posted by Johnny Triangles

This is exactly what makes current DC comics so bad now....Didio and company think like fanboys. As dumb as that fan's suggestion is, is it any worse than what Didio and company did do to Tim Drake to make him more heroic, which was kill his best friend, kill his dad and kill his girlfriend so that he could become more dark?

Ugh, don't remind me, those were bad choices DC did there. IMO Tim was cool because of his contrasts to Dick and Bruce, he didn't need to be a "mini" version of them.

[BillReed]

I thought there were quite a few forgotten gems in Cancelled Comics Cavalcade, myself...

[holtom2000]

doh. wish I had been there
25 year comic fan.
i quit buying... because of the lacklustre efforts the last two years from DC
hopeful I'll get back into the game down the road - after Didio leaves

[coy_dog0]

Originally Posted by ElijahSnowFan

why fans should never, never, never, EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE INPUT in the direction of comics:

Another fan suggested marrying Dick Grayson off, giving him some kids, then having someone slaughter his family so that he could be appropriately dark as Batman.

the whole point of Dick Grayson is that his parents were killed right in front of his eyes, just like Batman's, BUT HE'S A DIFFERENT PERSON DOING THE SAME THING. it's called CONTRAST.

God. sometimes you wonder how simple you have to make something.

I agree 100%.

"If the audience knew what it wanted, it wouldn't be the audience, it would be the artist".
-paraphrase of an Alan Moore quote

Speaking of fans, I can think of a few ways to fix Aquaman...

[Jason1Kent]

BRING BACK CONNER KENT AS SUPERBOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...................... ......................please and thank you

[Nas-Vell]

Originally Posted by SuperSpeedy

I got into comic characters with the x-men and spiderman cartoons of the 90's. One the first comics I ever bought was Identity Crisis years laters. I brought all 7 at once because I thougth the cover for issue 7 was amazing. I knew nothing about the DC universe other than the obvious stuff that everybody knows. People think that DC books aren't accessible because they are littered with so many characters and story refferences, but to me that's what made it great. You really can understand more than you think if you just pay attention, Final Crisis is the same way despite the naysayers. You don't have to know everything that came before it to know what's happening now. It's fun to meet characters with a back story and put the peices together from there.

The idea that there was so much that I didn't know, so much that I could know, was what made the book exciting. That's what made comic books suddenly exciting. I wanted to know everything.

First, I'd like to vote we don't make this thread into one for whiny fanboy commentary. Let's keep the spirit of that panel alive in here and share fun stories, people.

Second, more posts like the above! I agree. The first comic I ever read, as my signature reveals, featured Superman (and The Atom in the backup) and it was great fun. I still have it somewhere, torn to shreds and without a cover, and I got it from my older brother. When the 90's X-Men and Spidey cartoons were big, my brother bought me (and read) more comics (mainly X-Men) and it eventually became my own personal passion.

I got heavily into DC comics a few years ago, actually, with Countdown to Infinite Crisis being what I guess I'd call my 'doorway' into the universe. I'd read many of their books before, mainly random issues (I didn't collect anything - not even Marvel; just read odd issues off the shelf when I could get my hands on them) of Batman and Superman, and I just found the whole universe so enriched with lore. It's been great learning about it, and the Marvel Universe (which I love, too).

I love that DC's doing these panels and hope, some day, to attend a major comic con and attend one of these panels, too. Good day, comic fans.

[Nas-Vell]

Originally Posted by ElijahSnowFan

why fans should never, never, never, EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE INPUT in the direction of comics:

Another fan suggested marrying Dick Grayson off, giving him some kids, then having someone slaughter his family so that he could be appropriately dark as Batman.

the whole point of Dick Grayson is that his parents were killed right in front of his eyes, just like Batman's, BUT HE'S A DIFFERENT PERSON DOING THE SAME THING. it's called CONTRAST.

God. sometimes you wonder how simple you have to make something.

I took that comment about Nightwing to be a joke.

[ClayinCA]

Originally Posted by ElijahSnowFan

why fans should never, never, never, EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE INPUT in the direction of comics

So, what you're saying is that people such as Geoff Johns, Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, Marv Wolfman, Roy Thomas, Steve Englehart, and the late Steve Gerber should have had no input into the direction of any comics?

Because all of them were (and still are) fans as well as professionals.

[AJ Ryan]

I got in to comics because of the Batman and X-Men cartoons.
Didn't get in to DC until Quesada started canceling all my favorite books and killing all my favorite characters.

Changing Dick Grayson to Batman would, in my opinion, by a disservice to a character that has successfully stepped out of the shadow of his mentor. Nightwing is his own man, and there is no reason for him to change. I don't have any problem with Tim or even Terry becoming Batman because I feel like that fits with an overall arc of the story.

Tim doesn't want to be Batman because he isn't like Bruce, but the end result would be him stepping up as his own kind of Batman rather than being the dark, driven person that Bruce is.

Really just as long as it isn't that little bastard Damien.

As for the one comic to give to a person, I think Countdown to Infinite Crisis was an awesome single issue story. I never cared about Blue Beetle before that, but by the end I was really sad to see Ted Kord go.

[Disco Cookie]

Originally Posted by SuperSpeedy

I got into comic characters with the x-men and spiderman cartoons of the 90's. One the first comics I ever bought was Identity Crisis years laters. I brought all 7 at once because I thougth the cover for issue 7 was amazing. I knew nothing about the DC universe other than the obvious stuff that everybody knows. People think that DC books aren't accessible because they are littered with so many characters and story refferences, but to me that's what made it great. You really can understand more than you think if you just pay attention, Final Crisis is the same way despite the naysayers. You don't have to know everything that came before it to know what's happening now. It's fun to meet characters with a back story and put the peices together from there.

The idea that there was so much that I didn't know, so much that I could know, was what made the book exciting. That's what made comic books suddenly exciting. I wanted to know everything.

Yep, agree 100%. This is why after 30+ years of reading comics I still go into a shop, pick up a book of an ongoing I know nothing about and buy it. If I like it (typically I do, I'm such a comic whore like that) I buy backwards in that run to discover what's going on. It's like finding treasure that was in front of your eyes the whole time.

[nightwingoracle]

Originally Posted by Johnny Triangles

This is exactly what makes current DC comics so bad now....Didio and company think like fanboys. As dumb as that fan's suggestion is, is it any worse than what Didio and company did do to Tim Drake to make him more heroic, which was kill his best friend, kill his dad and kill his girlfriend so that he could become more dark?

I didn't like that DC did all three of these things but:

1) Superboy was killed off because of the Siegel lawsuit....had that not been in the works, Connor wouldn't have been killed. And it's highly doubtful that he will stay dead. As soon as they legally can, DC will bring him back.

2) Jack Drake's death was atrociously written. One of the things that made Tim's Robin unique from the previous two was that his father was still alive. Jack had just learned about his son's other identity and there was a ton of story potential still to go with that concept. Still, it is easier to have Tim live at Wayne Manor....

3) Spoiler was also horribly killed off in a terrible storyline....but she's back now and better still..Leslie Thompkins has been redeemed.

[ElijahSnowFan]

Originally Posted by ClayinCA

So, what you're saying is that people such as Geoff Johns, Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, Marv Wolfman, Roy Thomas, Steve Englehart, and the late Steve Gerber should have had no input into the direction of any comics?

Because all of them were (and still are) fans as well as professionals.

believe me, i am well aware that many pros read the books as fans before they made the transition.

but it's just like anything else in life: there are filters and protocols that weed out those with lesser skills from those who should be contributing to this medium. those who can make the transition and handle these characters, for the most part, with common sense and skill dictating the directions they should go. those people do find their way into comics, and deservedly so.

for the rest...well, there are those who will tell you that there are no such things as stupid questions and bad ideas. i've been alive long enough, and read comics long enough, to know that those two sentiments are completely untrue.

[SageShini]

Originally Posted by ClayinCA

So, what you're saying is that people such as Geoff Johns, Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, Marv Wolfman, Roy Thomas, Steve Englehart, and the late Steve Gerber should have had no input into the direction of any comics?

Because all of them were (and still are) fans as well as professionals.

Every fan doesn't have good ideas, I think was the point.

Jack had just learned about his son's other identity and there was a ton of story potential still to go with that concept.

You know what? Fans always say this, and yet within no time after a secret ID being revealed either publicly or to an important person in that character's life, its usually retconned away. Which tells me that more than likely fans just think there's a lot of story there, but really its something to get maybe a story or two out of before you realize there's nowhere else to go with it.

[Stazz]

I first got into comics though my grandfather giving me some of his, both older ones and newer ones (he liked to draw from them), and I bought a few TPBs and issues here and there growing up, and got some good ones out of the library. Around 2003/4 though, I was getting into Batman a lot and through that, DC more in general, and first started buying weekly around the time of infinite crisis, and it's grown from that since.