ELLIS: LEAVING THUNDERBOLTS WITH #121

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by MattBrady

Warren Ellis has confirmed that he will be leaving as writer on Marvel's Thunderbolts with issue #121. Christos Gage will take over the title at least for the three following issues that tie in to Secret Invasion.

At his Whitechapel messageboard, Ellis wrote:

The tenor -- and, frankly, the informedness -- of online comics conversation over the last five years has changed to the point where I probably need to explain once again why I don't stay long on company-owned works.

It's as simple as this -- if I don't own it, I'm not going to spend my life on it. Joe Quesada and Dan Buckley know that, they're fine with that, and they hire me on that understanding.

Or, if you like: you can only paint someone else's house for so long before you start thinking that it might be nice to own your own house one day.

I'm okay with painting other people's houses for short periods, because I'm good at it and it pays well and on nice days it's fun. But I never ever confuse painting a house for owning that house. And if I spent every waking hour painting other people's houses, I wouldn't be able to build houses of my own.

The more creators who only took on housepainting as a part-time gig, the healthier this medium would be.

For those of you who harbour a wish to write comics, consider this today: you're either on this side of the line, with me and Brian K Vaughan and Garth Ennis and Grant Morrison and Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction... or you're not.

the problem is he took a house that was already painted and splash some dark colors on it and then left it ruin and no the people that used to live in that house don;t want it any more. Hoperfully some one wll come and strip away the paint he put on the housr and make the owners like the house again, but it is going to take a lot of FIXIN

THe new guy is probally going to do more of what ellis did splash some dark colors on the house and make it even uglier and more unfit to live in.

at some point , either the orignal painters of the house will have to come and restore it, or the house will have to be torn down (cancelled)

[Brother Zag]

Originally Posted by BartAllen

the problem is he took a house that was already painted and splash some dark colors on it and then left it ruin and no the people that used to live in that house don;t want it any more. Hoperfully some one wll come and strip away the paint he put on the housr and make the owners like the house again, but it is going to take a lot of FIXIN

THe new guy is probally going to do more of what ellis did splash some dark colors on the house and make it even uglier and more unfit to live in.

at some point , either the orignal painters of the house will have to come and restore it, or the house will have to be torn down (cancelled)

Wait... do you think YOU own the house? That the FANS own the house? That's not the analogy he's making.

[RichJohnston]

Originally Posted by Pack

No matter what he signed, I will bet you $10 that 12 issues - never mind 24 - will never happen.

I'll take that bet. 12 issues? Done.

I mean, I've read issue 1. 11 to go...

[Sweeps]

Man, I fear for newuniversal after it completes it's second 6 issue arc later this year. I really loved the first 6 issues we got and Salvador Larroca's art was fantastic. While I'm sad Larroca isn't doing the art this second time around, at least Ellis is writing it. I love what he's crafted and would hope he would see through it to some sort of end.

I've never seen newuniversal as a continuing on-going book, but more of a maxiseries that lasts 24 issues or so. I really hope Ellis sticks with it.

[Salieri]

Originally Posted by BartAllen

the problem is he took a house that was already painted and splash some dark colors on it and then left it ruin and no the people that used to live in that house don;t want it any more. Hoperfully some one wll come and strip away the paint he put on the housr and make the owners like the house again, but it is going to take a lot of FIXIN

THe new guy is probally going to do more of what ellis did splash some dark colors on the house and make it even uglier and more unfit to live in.

at some point , either the orignal painters of the house will have to come and restore it, or the house will have to be torn down (cancelled)

...You know, maybe he should have left a sign outside reading 'We Don't Like The Colour Of Your House Either'.

[newfoundma]

Clearly Ellis is going for a Jesus-as-carpenter metaphor. Or something.

Now guys remember when his Atonishing X-Men comes out, don't get too excited; he will only tell one or two stories and he will keep all his best ideas for his creator owned stuff.

[Beheader]

I kind of saw this coming. This recent arc of Thunderbolts, Ellis seemed to be "putting away his toys" so to speak. All the newer Thunderbolt teammates seem to be on their way out.

Bullseye gets crippled.
Venom got ran through with a sword.
Norman Osborn is going Goblin crazy.
Penance is regaining his old Speedball powers.

Plus, I think this is why Thunderbolts have been delayed so much. Marvel had tons of plans for Ellis' team, and destructing the team would effect comics like Damage Control and the upcoming Invaders mini-series.

[Alexjh]

Personally I think good for him - theres always going to be something that more satisfying about doing work entirely for yourself rather than just adding to whatever someone else has conceived. Besides, if people don't do their own work then things stagnate - we just end up with massive backlogs of big characters but nothign entirely new ever appears.

[J S Roberts]

What's all this crap about holding back his best ideas? Christ's sake, Thunderbolts became interesting because Ellis changed things radically. He shifted the focus from standard superheroics to genuine intrigue and didn't skimp on action. Bullseye? Became interesting. Venom? The same. Swordsman? Bloody Swordsman? First time he's ever been interesting. I'm not a big Deodato fan, and still I picked up this book whenever I could because of Ellis.

The implication that he's been holding back his good stuff for creator-owned work means that (if he has, for whatever bizarre reason) his phoned-in plots still kick both buttocks off of many writers'. Much as I admire the guy's writing, I don't think holding back ever provides a quality working life, nor best results.

I get what he said. I don't like it, because I'd have bought more Thunderbolts if he'd stayed, but it's not a sleight against Marvel if it was agreed beforehand that his involvment was finite. Some prefer work-for-hire, some are more enthused by creator-owned work. Doesn't necessarily dictate a drop in quality, just that with a limited sandbox, not all of your big ideas can be brought out to play.

[Kahn]

That's how I feel pretty much. Only, I think it's funny at the end basically all of the guys he mentioned have made huge, healthy contributions to the mainstream, and their own books will receive respect mainly because the writers have earned our trust elsewhere.

[BartAllen]

Originally Posted by Brother Zag

Wait... do you think YOU own the house? That the FANS own the house? That's not the analogy he's making.

nope the fans just rent the house, and he made some of the fans move out so he could rent it to others. some people like the new darker paint job, but l a lot of the old tenants moved out.

moving outside the paint thing> he is part of the group of writer who are so full of themselves that they think that they do not have to bother to know anything about a book befor taking over, because they are ego's with typewriter, (Ellis' ego might be up thier with McFarlane) .

[little kon-el]

Originally Posted by Kahn

That's how I feel pretty much. Only, I think it's funny at the end basically all of the guys he mentioned have made huge, healthy contributions to the mainstream, and their own books will receive respect mainly because the writers have earned our trust elsewhere.

Now here's where I stop you: Mr. Ellis has made huge contributions to the mainstream. His Authority and Planetary changed the entire landscape of how superhero comics were made in the last 10 years. People just have short memories, but his work with John Cassidy in Authority still resonates and can still be felt in the big crossovers and in the "secret histories" that other companies have told since his work finished up around the early 2000s.

These were huge and healthy contributions, along with his Transmet that still brings outside readers into his other comics work.

He's earned my trust alone with his earlier work. I may not like his old work, but I'm definitely in it for the first or second issue just to see if it is something that I would enjoy.

- l.k.

[Snowspinner]

Originally Posted by BartAllen

the problem is he took a house that was already painted and splash some dark colors on it and then left it ruin and no the people that used to live in that house don;t want it any more. Hoperfully some one wll come and strip away the paint he put on the housr and make the owners like the house again, but it is going to take a lot of FIXIN

THe new guy is probally going to do more of what ellis did splash some dark colors on the house and make it even uglier and more unfit to live in.

at some point , either the orignal painters of the house will have to come and restore it, or the house will have to be torn down (cancelled)

I suspect that you are incorrect to credit Ellis with the basic idea of the Thunderbolts revamp.

[Salieri]

Originally Posted by BartAllen

moving outside the paint thing> he is part of the group of writer who are so full of themselves that they think that they do not have to bother to know anything about a book befor taking over, because they are ego's with typewriter, (Ellis' ego might be up thier with McFarlane) .

...But he did know something about the book. It's loosely based on the original premise - Villains As Heroes - and sprinkled with references to previous continuity (e.g. Songbird being mocked about sleeping with Baron Zemo, or Osborn being on freindly terms with Venom because theyw ere working together when Gargan got the Symbiote). Nextwave - itself the reinvention of a crap idea - was chock-full of rerences to characters old and new, and some that hadn't been seen for years. All of his Ultimate stuff has been firmly within the bounds of the characters, where theya re and what they do.

You could perhaps read the books before making sweeping generalisations about their writers?

[Pack]

Originally Posted by RichJohnston

I'll take that bet. 12 issues? Done.

I mean, I've read issue 1. 11 to go...

Okay, seriously, while you still have any credibility left, go get a copy of "Almost Famous" and watch the part with Phillip Seymour Hoffman.
I realize that right now you're pretty comfy in the Egyptian river and you'll probably scoff by saying something like "That reminds me of something ALAN MOORE said to me that time GRANT MORRISON let me paint his garage..." but someday, Harry Knowles, you may get what you're being told right now.

[Stormbreaker]

Well, this sucks. I can understand why but I still don't like it. Gage is a good writer, but I am afraid it just won't be the same caliber as when Ellis had it. So, I am afraid that as of 121, I am giving T-Bolts the axe.

Let's just hope his Astonishing work isn't as horribly delayed...

[SpyGuy]

I have to say, I'm not surprised that Ellis is leaving with #121. He seems to be favoring runs of no more than 12 issues when writing for Marvel. I'm guessing his ASTONISHING X-MEN will be a total of 12 issues as well, although I'd love it if he ended up writing more.

And yes, ASTONISHING will probably end up seriously delayed. Even with dropping THUNDERBOLTS, Ellis still has BLACK SUMMER (delayed), DOKTOR SLEEPLESS (delayed), GRAVEL, ANNA MERCURY, his web-only series FREAKANGELS, his upcoming novel LISTENER, and of course, his various internet distractions.

With Warren, I think it seems best to take an "it happens when it happens" Zen-like attitude.

[grphxkindaguy]

IMO super-heroes has never been Ellis' strength, his creator owned stuff is obviously where he focuses most of his creative energy.

I haven't read Thunderbolts since the first 12 issues, but I've really been digging Ellis' take on the team! Sad to see him go...

If Gage stays on the book beyond his four issues, so will I!

[Stalzer2002]

Warren Ellis:
Iron Man: Six issues
Thunderbolts: Twelve issues
Ultimate Fantastic Four: Twelve issues
Doom 2099: Fifteen issues
Ultimate Trilogy: Eighteen issues
Excalibur: Twenty one issues (back in 1994-1996)
Stormwatch: Twenty five issues (Back in 1996-1998)

BKV:
Ultimate X-Men: Twenty issues
Runaways: Forty two issues

Ed Brubaker:
Captain America: Thirty five issues and counting
Daredevil: Twenty five issues and counting
Immortal Iron Fist: Fourteen issues and counting
Catwoman: Thirty seven issues
Sleeper: Twenty four issues
Uncanny X-Men: Twenty five issues and counting

Grant Morrison:
JLA: Forty one issues
Animal Man: Twenty six issues
Batman: Twenty issues and counting
New X-Men: Forty two issues
Doom Patrol: Forty four issues

Matt Fraction:
Immortal Iron Fist: Fourteen issues and counting
Punisher War Journal: Eighteen issues and counting

Garth Ennis:
Punisher: About 100 issues
Hitman: Sixty issues


One of these is not like the others. One of them does not belong. I can certainly understand wanting to focus primarily on your own work. Hell, in Ellis' case, I wish he'd only do creator owned stuff, since I think his Marvel work is garbage. But that doesn't explain why none of his work for hire projects in the last decade have last more than eighteen issues. None of the other writers he listed as being on "his side of the line" do such short runs. His analogy doesn't work. He's not moving on to just own his own house. He's just putting on a slapdash single coat to the house he's working on now before moving on to another house down the street. All the other writers he listed own their own houses, but they still take a lot more time on their outside painting jobs than he does.

[Snikkas]

He sounds like an actor. Do one big budget (ie, big paycheck) film in order to do 3 dream projects for no money with smaller budgets (ie, no paychecks).

And I do agree that his comparison to Brubaker and Morrison is a little out there. I mean, Brubaker has Captain America planned through issue 50, he's been on DD for 2 years, and X-Men for almost 2. While Morrison has long term plans with Batman and the destruction of the DC Universe.

He just misses Transmet and we all know it

[little kon-el]

Originally Posted by Stalzer2002

One of these is not like the others. One of them does not belong. I can certainly understand wanting to focus primarily on your own work. Hell, in Ellis' case, I wish he'd only do creator owned stuff, since I think his Marvel work is garbage. But that doesn't explain why none of his work for hire projects in the last decade have last more than eighteen issues. None of the other writers he listed as being on "his side of the line" do such short runs. His analogy doesn't work. He's not moving on to just own his own house. He's just putting on a slapdash single coat to the house he's working on now before moving on to another house down the street. All the other writers he listed own their own houses, but they still take a lot more time on their outside painting jobs than he does.

But his focus is always his original work, and that is what he's getting at in his analogy. Work for hire is good if you are doing your own work. The gig should always be a balance of your original work and commercial work, so you can always pull the mainstream to your independant work. That is what he's getting with in his journal.

- l.k.

[Snowspinner]

Originally Posted by Stalzer2002

One of these is not like the others. One of them does not belong. I can certainly understand wanting to focus primarily on your own work. Hell, in Ellis' case, I wish he'd only do creator owned stuff, since I think his Marvel work is garbage. But that doesn't explain why none of his work for hire projects in the last decade have last more than eighteen issues. None of the other writers he listed as being on "his side of the line" do such short runs. His analogy doesn't work. He's not moving on to just own his own house. He's just putting on a slapdash single coat to the house he's working on now before moving on to another house down the street. All the other writers he listed own their own houses, but they still take a lot more time on their outside painting jobs than he does.

I think the sides of the line are better thought of in terms of "do substantial creator-owned material" rather than "do not do substantial work-for-hire material."

[Kahn]

Originally Posted by little kon-el

Now here's where I stop you: Mr. Ellis has made huge contributions to the mainstream. His Authority and Planetary changed the entire landscape of how superhero comics were made in the last 10 years. People just have short memories, but his work with John Cassidy in Authority still resonates and can still be felt in the big crossovers and in the "secret histories" that other companies have told since his work finished up around the early 2000s.

These were huge and healthy contributions, along with his Transmet that still brings outside readers into his other comics work.

He's earned my trust alone with his earlier work. I may not like his old work, but I'm definitely in it for the first or second issue just to see if it is something that I would enjoy.

- l.k.

Maybe I should have phrased it better and just said Marvel. He has contributed greatly to comics overall and he is pretty trustworthy, but it's pretty much just like Stalzer described.

[Stalzer2002]

Originally Posted by little kon-el

But his focus is always his original work, and that is what he's getting at in his analogy. Work for hire is good if you are doing your own work. The gig should always be a balance of your original work and commercial work, so you can always pull the mainstream to your independant work. That is what he's getting with in his journal.

- l.k.

His exact words:

I probably need to explain once again why I don't stay long on company-owned works.

Wanting balance between original and commerical work does not mean that one has to leave every commerical project after twelve issues. All the other writers he listed balance creator owned projects with multi year runs on work for hire projects. If it's just about balance, what's the difference between doing 48 issues of one title and doing 12 issues of title A, 6 issues of title B, 18 issues of title C, and 12 issues of title D?

Ellis' "explanation" simply doesn't work. Wanting to balance creator owned with commerical works doesn't stop anyone else from doing long runs, so why does it stop Ellis?

[eric_image]

Originally Posted by rdrsfn82

It sounds to me like he feels he shouldn't put forth effort on books for big companies that he would put on a creator owned book and that he thinks no one should worry about the big characters that drive the medium. That doesn't strike me as a great attitude.

What's wrong with that attitude? Not everybody's goal in life is to work toward filling someone else's till.