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01-18-2008, 11:07 AM
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#1 |
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TILTING @ WINDMILLS: BRAND THINKING
 by Brian Hibbs(#165 January 2008) "People identify things like Countdown to Mystery and Countdown to Adventure and even Lord Havok as Countdown crossovers, but I really don't - I consider those books to be 'spin-outs' of Countdown featuring characters that were in Countdown, and have spun out into their own miniseries and stories. They're not different than when say; Iceman or Nightcrawler got their own miniseries spinning off of X-Men. So if you say we're putting out a lot of Countdown, 'Countdown' is a brand name the same way that Superman is a brand name, Batman is a brand name, or X-Men is a brand name." Dan Didio, interview with Matt Brady, 12/20/2007 Oh. Well, now I understand just where that all went wrong. We (well, "I") call that "The CrossGen move" - thinking that you can create a brand out from thin air, rather than A) doing the long and hard work it takes to create awareness of and interest in of your brand, and B) having the underlying quality of the base work be strong enough to reinforce that brand in every iteration of branding. I mean, that's not to pick on CrossGen, or anything, but they essentially line-expanded themselves out of business because they thought the CrossGenbrand, in and of itself, was strong enough to keep leveraging new work against the brand. It wasn't, and what it ended up actually doing was diluting the value of the brand. Of course, CrossGen had such a massive overhead with the salaried creators and the Complex and Perks and everything else, that they pretty much had to keep trying to expand their line to cover their nut. (I know that phrase sounds slightly risque, but to "cover one's nut" is to have enough cash inflow to at least pay for your fixed day-to-day expenses - the ones you can't reduce or cutback) Click here for the full column. |
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01-18-2008, 11:41 AM
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#2 |
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The gulf between a 'Spider-Man' reader and an 'art comic' reader basically boils down to the art comic reader being 'evolved' (either factually, or in their own opinion) from a Spider-Man reader.
Sure, you get the literary types who picked up Maus in a college course and only appreciates those types of work (kind of like the teacher in Clowes' "Pussey!"). However, it seems to me, anecdotally at least, that a lot of art comics creators and fans where originally superhero fans. The introduction to Yoshihiro Tatsumi's "Push-Man and Other Stories" is written by Andrian Tomine where he cites the hollow experience of his teens of buying Web of Spider-Man each month out of habit and not evening reading it. Many art comics creators worship at the altars of Curt Swan, Jack Kirby, and John Romita. I personally believe that anyone over 25 probably hit a wall with comics, sometime in their teens most likely. The output of mainstream superhero comics in the 90s wasn't great and they either got out or found other comics with genuine substance. Vertigo comics were the obvious gateway drug, and then with time, found Peepshow, Hate, Optic Nerve, Eightball, Cerebus, and other titles. Time after time in the Talk@ section of this site, I see people bemoan the current state of comics and how they're not satisfied with them. The only solutions that come to mind are to either bail out, take break, or just keep on trucking along, disappointed business as usual. The reason you see sales of Love & Rockets to a Spider-Man reader is because they've 'unplugged from the Matrix' so to speak and waking up to a world outside of superheroes. |
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01-18-2008, 12:01 PM
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#3 |
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Isn't what Brian described how most minis/spinoffs work? They release them, see if they're a hit, and then either do another mini or maybe even an ongoing? Some will obviously fail, but every once in awhile you get a gem in the bunch (Uncle Sam, Shadowpact).
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01-18-2008, 12:12 PM
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#4 | |
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.....I guess this defines...someone. I'm not sure that's what he meant though. In my case I just grew up with the idea that superheroes weren't the ONLY ones getting comics anymore, and as a result when I came back to comics as a teen I wanted to try Sandman and Preacher...but then I went straight to the superhero books again. Bottom line? You're much more likely to find a superhero comics fan who's willing to branch out to "art comics" (which sounds much more pretentious than the columnist was aiming for, I'm sure) than you are to find the opposite. Most likely due to preconceived notions. Aside from that though, even though I'm critical of people who are critical of DC these days (mainly because they seem to do it just 'cause its "cool"), the bit about Countdown is spot-on. I personally had interest in the Countdown spin-offs for my own reasons (wanting to see the multiverse, interest in Doc Fate, etc.), not because they were part of a "brand". Still, tacking on that "Countdown" title to some of those minis probably netted them a few extra sales here and there. .....But I wonder about Countdown to Mystery and Countdown to Adventure. Half of Adventure is a 52 spin-off (which was recieved far better than CD is), which may've benefitted more from the "52 Aftermath" title than it does from the Countdown one. CoM though is the real mystery. There are plenty of Dr. Fate fans that probably never did (and never will) pick up the book because of the Countdown name. Whether the trade off is worth it or not though, is something I don't think we'll ever know. |
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01-18-2008, 12:23 PM
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#5 | |
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That Matrix analogy may be the best description of the process I've ever heard. I unplugged in the '90s, during the period Brian references, when comics like Peep Show, Optic Nerve, Hate, Eightball, Palookaville, Pickle, Dirty Plotte, etc., etc. were all coming out on a pretty regular basis. The '90s had left me pretty disenchanted with "mainstream" comics (not that there wasn't good stuff coming out, but there was also a lot of bad stuff coming out, and I was growing weary of a strict diet of superheroes and the occasional foray into Vertigo), and I distinctly remember walking into Jim Hanley's Universe and just picking up a stack of random issues of the aforementioned comics just to take a flier and see if I liked any of it. I loved 'em. Given my own experience, I see where Brian's coming from with his worries about the higher price point for entering the world of "art comics," but I also think there's such a wide range of good stuff collected these days that retailers have an even better chance of hitting the target when recommending something to their customers that costs a bit more. That said, I can definitely see his concerns when it comes to losing a good way to attract non-regular customers into his store. With L&R's move to an annual format, I'd imagine a lot of those customers will simply put in an order on Amazon and skip the trip to Comix Experience. Whenever I see folks complaining about the current state of comics, I wonder what comics they're reading (or, perhaps more to the point, not reading). I can't keep up with all the good stuff coming out these days, not to mention the great reprints. |
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01-18-2008, 12:30 PM
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#6 | |
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But if the Hernandez Bros., Dan Clowes, Adrian Tomine, Chris Ware, Ivan Brunetti, Seth, Bryan O'Malley, Hope Larson, (etc., etc.) all come out with one book a year and there are enough good "art comics" creators making material, wouldn't there still be a few good books every month to keep people coming back regularly? I still like to spend at least $20 on comics every week, just as I did in my 20's -- just like I like to see at least one movie in the theater every week. Anything less than that and I leave the comics shop sad.  The difference is, rather than $20 (or so) on 5 or 6 monthly comics each week, I'm picking up 1 or 2 magazines (if that) and a TPB or graphic novel every week. Obviously, there isn't always one new, good TPB or OGN every week, but sometimes more than one comes out, and I'll save one 'til the next week. Or, I'll go mine the shelves for something older that I've overlooked in my two decades or so of reading comics regularly.But then, maybe I'm a huge exception; I'm fairly confident my taste in comics is broader than the average reader. (Oh, and I'm not sure HATE is a good example, because I used to read it and -- no offense to anybody who still likes it, or to Mr. Bagge -- I just stopped liking it. I felt that he mined the same field over and over to the point that I completely lost interest, and I'm while I can't speak for anyone else, it's certainly possible that other former readers feel the same way.) Last edited by Gordon McAlpin : 01-18-2008 at 12:32 PM. |
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01-18-2008, 12:30 PM
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#7 | |
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But I think you're faulting the art comics reader for not wanting to come to the store every week. The art comics reader is more likely to buy a long form work, which come out sporadically, or something self-contained. I know several art comics readers that are into All-Star Superman, possibly because of concept and execution, but there has to be something to the fact that when they make their regular three to fourth month trip to the comic store, a new issue is out. Art comics readers don't really fit the profile of superhero comics readers. They seem to me at least to be more on the professional end of the scale. They're business people or teachers or someone else without the free time of someone younger with a less demanding job. They don't have time to get wrapped up in the X-universe or follow Countdown. |
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01-18-2008, 12:47 PM
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#8 |
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X-Men point
I enjoyed the comment about X-Men evolving as a "brand". I seem to remember constant appearances of the new team in all the books Claremont was writing at the time (I guess with editorial permission). This exposure is a great device to create interest, provided people actually like what they see.
Cheers, B |
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01-18-2008, 01:06 PM
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#9 |
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I couldn't agree more with the first part. Countdown is all style, no substance. the spinoffs are just so much fluff.
52, meanwhile, was more substances than style. |
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01-18-2008, 01:07 PM
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#10 | |
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The internet. |
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01-18-2008, 01:20 PM
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#11 | |
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Amen, Brother Matt. It seems easy enough to me for the creators of MOME, or any anthology, or hell any "art" comic whatsoever, to slap some free PDF excerpts up on the ol' interwebbes and spit them to any and all relevant websites. Readers get a free "taste," they can find out if the material suits their interests enough to warrant a purchase, and then the retailers are waiting with the goods to sell. Maybe this is happening already, and I'm just missing it--but man, embrace the dang internet, retailers! It ain't going noplace. (Matt, I'm guessing that's not specifically what you were maybe suggesting--there's the whole idea of comics native to the web too--but that's what it made me think of at least.) |
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01-18-2008, 01:40 PM
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#12 | |
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Hey, Gordon I understand where you are coming from. Starting in the late 80's while I was still reading piles of Marvel and DC comics I found myself actually wanting to produce material that was different. I didn't stop reading the superhero genre comics at the time, but the material I produced as a creator and then as publisher was pushing in a different direction. I would also buy almost anything that was coming out in the early 90's that was trying to break out of the norm. It was truly a great time for experimentation during that period. I must also give books like Flaming Carrot credit as a big instigator of making people look elsewhere. Bob Burden took was was superficially a superhero book and created something totally unique. During the 90's there was also a lull in the creativity in mainstream comics. Frank Miller and Alan Moore were producing books so different that it made everything else look a little pale by comparison. I feel that the audience for Love & Rockets is very specific to that title. 'Art Comics' tend not to attract the same mentality as superhero books, where they don't feel they have to collect as many titles as possible of a companies output, they are very happy to just pick up that one title three or four times a year, but if it just becomes once a year then they might just give up. I would read all the Love & Rockets as they come out and then buy the collections to read again as a whole. I don't do that any more. For the most part I have become a 'wait for the trade' guy for certain books. The point I am making here is that someone coming in for Love & Rockets may very not be interested in anything else. They may start buying them at the bookstore instead, where they can buy a cup of coffee at the same time and sit and read it in an armchair. These are readers that have grown to like a particular type of story and style who don't feel the need to even look for anything else to read. That one title might well be it for them. I will say that I am buying more superhero titles than I have for nearly fifteen years. I completely stopped at one point but it was Mark Millar's work that got me hooked again and then I started reading Grant Morrison's and Brian Bendis' trades to catch up. I love Grant's Superman book because it reminds be of the great old Curt Swan stories with a modern twist. Dave |
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01-18-2008, 01:51 PM
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#13 | |
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I think it's a case of "all of the above." The thing I remember most about SPX this year was the HUGE line for Nicholas Gurewitch. Everyone was scrambling to get a copy of his hardcover collection just out from Dark Horse. I did a little informal polling of people who stopped by my table with a copy of his book in their hands. Every single one of them had been following his work on-line for free. It would seem that this isn't necessarily a bad thing for retailers either. The web has the potential to dramatically expand the audience for "art books" beyond the scope of the Wednesday regulars. The challenges for retailers will be 1) predicting which collections will be a hit without the individual issue sales to look back on and 2) figuring out how to corral those on-line readers into the comic shops as opposed to the chain and on-line bookstores. But the web is really the low cost option to get work out to a wide audience without the hassel of the traditional self-publishing route. Personally, I released the first issue of my book on the web the same weekend I copied up my first round of mini's. I really do think creators and retailers can work together to steer interested readers to their local comic shops. At least, that's what I've tried to do. |
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01-18-2008, 03:40 PM
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#14 |
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I don't really have anything substantive to add here - I could recount my own evolution as a comic consumer but who cares, really? I will say instead that I love this column if for nothing else than it has a retailer's perspective. We get plenty of "perspective" (read: hype) from publishers and lots of consumer perspective here. It's great to hear what a retailer thinks about the industry, given their prominent place therein.
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01-18-2008, 07:02 PM
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#15 | |
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In my opinion DC was right to do the Countdown “spin-outs”. New titles have not done well over the past few years by DC or Marvel. Chances are new titles by the teams on these books would have sold less. The spin-out have been good or great. The Search for Ray Palmer specials have been hit or miss. Sales of the trade of these spin-outs have potential. What is the trade value of the first 6 to 8 issues a book that did not last a year? Fans seem to have the attention span of a gnat. The time used could take to build to something 10 years ago is not there any more. It has to be hot. 52 ended in May. Black Atom and Booster Gold stated in August and September. Marvel has delays longer than that. DC could do a 6 issue mini with Geoff Johns and Jim Lee that has Superman and Batman beating the hell out of each over and it would sell like hotcakes. You could have a tie-in with Vikki Vale and Lois Lane trying to cover it. The book could have no consequence. All you want is fans to say this is so cool and buy it or this sucks but I have to buy it. This does not sound like DC. I am trying to figure out why that is a problem. I am feeling the channels are getting narrower and narrower. Publishers have to feed it to survive. Each Marvel event leaves me scratching my head. What was all the fuss about WWH for? If the fans base gets a little wider and deeper it could widen the focus. Channels would not be so narrow. There less mega events and more Love and Rockets. There is nothing that DC has that could replace the sales that Countdown and its spins-out do. You cannot pull 4 70,000 plus titles out of thin air. If Blue Beetle, Jonah Hex and Booster Gold sold more there would be less reason for the spin-outs. Making ggod books does not mean geeitng good sale. |
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01-18-2008, 07:58 PM
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#16 | |
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Thanks for the link Mr Silady, I just ordered his book, it looks amazing from the huge free preview on his site, quite hilarious stuff there ! Thats pretty much what also prompt me to buy your book, The Homeless Channel a few months ago, GREAT stuff, really engaging, for those interested, theres a free 32 pages preview on his website: http://homepage.mac.com/msilady/mattsilady.com/3/3.html |
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01-18-2008, 10:20 PM
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#17 | |
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That looks like the light at the end of the tunnel to me. One or two books a month from the likes of these creators would be sweet. They could stagger the release dates so they don't "step on each other's toes" just like film studios stake out specific dates and other studios work around the competition. And wouldn't it be preferable for a retailer to sell 25 GNs at $20 than 100 "floppies" at $3.50 each? Another great article, as always, by Mr. Hibbs. |
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01-18-2008, 10:38 PM
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#18 | |
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Not if those periodicals ship more than twice a year!! Plus: 100 customers coming in looking for something gives me 75 more chances to sell something else to those customers than 25 looking for the GN... @ Matt Silady: Pop by the store one day and lets discuss some of this face to face -- I don't want to get sidetracked into that discuss that here on the intarwub... -B |
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01-18-2008, 11:08 PM
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#19 |
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I really don't think that the importance of consistency can be ignored. Our L&R numbers dropped off the charts once the books became more and more rare. There's just too great of a level of disappointment that sets in after making multiple trips (or calls) after a book you really want and it's not there. Be it L&R or Ultimate Wolverine/Hulk or Hate.... This industry is built on the notion of selling periodicals. Schedules do matter to many people. Not to mention the simple fact that, in retail, absence does quite the opposite of making the heart grow fonder.
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01-19-2008, 06:20 AM
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#20 |
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My two-cents on the Countdown 'spin-offs' and 'art' comics.
Many years ago I probably would have been one of the 'herd mentality' readers who felt like I needed all the supposed tie-in books to make the whole thing coherent. I've long ago passed that point. I basically buy what I find to be (on the pitch) intriguing. There are certain things I will order straight away, and other things that I will wait to check out off the rack in order to make my decision. I was happy enough with 52 that I decided to order Countdown sight unseen. And while I haven't been as happy with it as I was 52, it has at least been decent enough to remain on my list. The spin-offs are a different matter. I picked up Countdown to Adventure automatically as that was almost a direct take-off involving Animal Man, Starfire, and Adam Strange. It was pretty much a MUST BUY. The rest I passed on completely except for Lord Havok and the Extremists. That one I thumbed through on the racks when the first issue hit and found it interesting enough that I decided to go ahead and pick it up. All of the other mini-series held no interest to me whatsoever. Had Vic Sage survived and been the main character involved in the Crime Bible mini-series, then I would have picked that one up as well. I have nothing against Renee Montoya (she is certainly an interesting character), but Vic Sage is the only Question I'm interested in buying a comic about. On to the art comics ... While I have to imagine that it probably isn't exactly cost effective to do things around issue releases (especially if they are coming few and far between) ... I do wonder when you have something as consistent (in quality) as a Love and Rockets if there might be some benefit to holding some sort of an event that could also be extended for other books of that ilk. If you've got a title of excellent quality that maybe only surfaces two or three times a year .... maybe you could do an event where you stay open a couple of hours later one evening and have a buy 2 get one half off type of event for the 'art' comics. Serve some cheap sodas and maybe a few snacks. If you only have to hold it two or three times a year, it wouldn't necessarily have to be all that expensive. And maybe you could entice people into trying some other 'art' comics they otherwise would not. Though realistically ... to make something like that work, you probably have to offer a little something outside of the 'art' books (speaking for myself, if I'm not an L&R reader, I'm probably not stopping in for the 'event', even though it is buy 2 and get the third for half off -- you're essentially only attracting the art book audience and that isn't going to be as big as the typical comic audience). That is the challenge of the retailer (which I'm sure you know all too well). How do you get the cross-over? Get the non-'art' buyers to sample the 'art' comics. And pull the opposite as well (get the art-buyers who wouldn't usually stoop so 'low' as to buy an issue of Green Lantern or something else of that sort to buy one of those comics). I wish I had a good answer. |
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01-19-2008, 10:26 AM
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#21 | |
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While a good idea, this doesn't exactly meet the need of the art comics reader. The exclusively art comics reader isn't bound by release dates. They get around to the material when they get around to it. This is the conundrum for retailers. If you don't usually sell a lot of a certain art comic creator's titles (either in single issue or bound volumes) and there's someone who comes in once every four months and asks about it, do you order it for them? For better or worse, the Fantatgraphics online store probably serves a lot of these customers' interests, or if not that, then Amazon. |
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01-19-2008, 11:34 AM
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#22 | |
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01-19-2008, 11:42 AM
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#23 | |
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Any event has to cater to your clientele, if you can find a way to market those books to your clientele then an event may have a windfall effect. If you fail in meeting the consumers needs, you end up with a bunch of dead stock. We have been in business for six years now and are still growing at this point. We have never had a signing (the only events we have had are FCBD and the midnight opening for Dark Tower)... if we ever do decide to do something it will have to be extraordinary as our customers flock to us regardless. |
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01-19-2008, 12:45 PM
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#24 | |
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Or mainstream bookstores that stock them, or public and university libraries. Long format comics are honest-to-goodness books, and so are welcome in more places. That's not to say there isn't a place for periodicals in the industry still. Company-owned comics, which are produced on a regular basis by talent who get paid up front, really need that monthly periodical cash flow to keep going while they produce their collections. More "literary" comics don't. An OGN approach makes a lot of sense for them. In the past there were a few talents who made a go of producing personal, creator-owned work on a regular basis for a long period of time. It looks like that time is done. |
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01-19-2008, 12:48 PM
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#25 | ||
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Ha. That's one of the perks of living by the Bay. Being able to walk into Comix Experience and get advice or hash out ideas with Brian first-hand is invaluable. Along with Rory Root over at Comic Relief and James Sime at Isotope, I get a nice variety of opinions and retailer viewpoints as I try to figure out how to do this comics thing right! Oh, and my sister lives in Durham. Maybe it's time for another visit to that neck of the woods.  |
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