Z-CULT AFTERMATH: MARVEL TARGETS COMICSEARCH

[MattBrady]

And the ripples from Z-Cult are starting to be seen.

In response to Marvel’s legal threat against the BitTorrent tracker site, Z-Cult ComicSearch’s “Deicist” posted an open letter to Marvel on November 23rd which captured many proponents’ arguments about the practice of placing comics online in the BitTorrent format. “Deicist”’s open letter read:

This letter comes about in the wake of several important developments in comics on the internet, and in particular Marvels recent launch of its online comics service.

Up until recently, The 'big two' in comics (Marvel and DC) have turned a blind eye to the rampant pirating of their comics and their distribution online via usenet and bittorrent. I'd make the argument that the recent upsurge in the popularity of comics, and the growth of the industry as a whole is due to, not in despite of this policy. A policy that Marvel has thrown out in recent days with it's cease and desist letter to popular comics website Zcultfm.

Marvel seems to be operating under the impression that stamping out piracy is the way forward, that people downloading scans of comics aren't buying the print versions and the way round this problem is to clamp down on illegal distribution and point people at their online service instead.

I (and the many other people who use this site) can already see this isn't going to work. Not only that, but it's a completely misguided idea to begin with. You only have to look at the example of the RIAA and it's persecution of music downloaders to see that attacking fans who want to see / listen to your product is not only misguided, it's downright stupid.

As things stand at the moment, Marvel and DC are in an enviable position. Their fans love them. People download comics not because they don't want to buy them, but because they want an electronic version they can read, and organise more easily without damaging their precious print versions. Look at any one of the users of Zcult or this site and you'll find they have vast libraries of print comics neatly catalogued and safely put away, and they keep the scans on their computer where they're easily accessible. Marvel's recent online service, while a nice first tetative step into the online world isn't what people want from electonic comics. You can't download the comics to your machine (only read them online) and the selection of comics available is sparse at best. The other enviable aspect of Marvel / DCs position is this: Their product has a value above and beyond it's content. People don't download comics instead of buying them, they download comics as well as buying them. And then there's the vast sums of money in the industry that don't even come from the comics... movies, merchandise etc. That money isn't going to shrink because a few people download comics, it's going to vastly increase as more and more people get into comics after checking them out online.

Marvel (in my opinion) has the chance, now, to show the way forward for intellectual property holders in the digital age. Don't try and stop the pirates, embrace them as the true fans they are and let them do the work of spreading the word about your product. Yes, it's a gamble...but it's one that, when it pays off will do your reputation and more importantly your product the world of good.

Rather than opening a discussion with Marvel, the letter was apparently enough to put the lower-profile tracker site on Marvel’s radar.

On November 28th, “Deicist” posted a message stating that he had received legal notice from Marvel, requesting that ComicSearch remove all trackers for Marvel Comics that were located on their site. Again, “trackers” are not the digital versions of the comics themselves, but rather than “map and directions” to them.

Marvel's representative responded with:

Your opinion is appreciated and I will let people know the various complaints about our service. I will forward on your suggestions to the person in charge.

Again, I thank you for cooperating to remove the Marvel titles from your tracker and I encourage debate on this topic on your forum. Please do not allow members to link torrents on The Pirate Bay or from direct file sharing sites either, you should know better than that. If you support the industry, buy your own comic books. If you want to preview them, there are dozens of review sites out there that show the first few pages.

As reported by TorrentFreak, after agreeing to remove the trackers, “Deicist” and the representative from Marvel continued an e-mail discussion of the issue in which the Marvel representative requested that the site contain no links to Marvel torrents on The Pirate Bay or direct file sharing sites. The discussion ended when the Marvel representative said that he would contact other publishers whose trackers appear on ComicSearch if “Deicist” continued to press the issue (which had gone from a discussion about the shortcomings (as “Deicist” saw them) of Marvel’s digital comics initiative, and was turning into a discussion about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and its enforceability outside of the United States, as ComicSearch is hosted in the U.K. “Deicist” has said that he will shortly be moving his server to Sweden, where The Pirate Bay is located.

[Arvandor]

It's all kicking off now.

[spidertour02]

As the end of the article notes, Marvel is simply inviting the "pirates" to move their servers overseas. They are only delaying the problem, as they see it, rather than solving it.

[Tekkamansol]

People will continue to download, stop talking to Marvel, they aren't gonna change their minds, if there's a will there's a way. I download, and I but some but hey comincs are becoming more and more expenses, when I fist started reading 10 bucks got me a lot of comics now 10 will get me three books at most. What can I say I still want to to read them so , there's the will....I know it's wrong but hey so is a lot of things, itunes still has it though download and keep it forever, no drm.

[Blind Assassin]

Originally Posted by Tekkamansol

People will continue to download, stop talking to Marvel, they aren't gonna change their minds, if there's a will there's a way. I download, and I but some but hey comincs are becoming more and more expenses, when I fist started reading 10 bucks got me a lot of comics now 10 will get me three books at most. What can I say I still want to to read them so , there's the will....I know it's wrong but hey so is a lot of things, itunes still has it though download and keep it forever, no drm.

Ironically, I was just reading a blog about this very issue on Scott Saavedra's Blog:

Justification #4: “There are too many comic books to buy. I can't afford them all.”

I feel your pain, but so what? I understand that it's easy to get whatever you want in unlimited quantities without fear of serious repercussions. I get that. Satisfying your comic book fix for free with no strings attached is a powerful siren's call. And, yeah, okay all your friends do it. Fine. But look, it really doesn't get more simple than this: taking something -- that somebody else created -- without permission and without any recompense and then passing it around is a crap thing to do. You have a brain and can make a choice. You like comics? Then respect the hard work that goes into making comics and pay for them.

It's actually an interesting read

http://comic_book_heaven.blogspot.co...nable-man.html

[0bsessions]

I'm curious to see the rest of the letter. All we have here is an open letter (Which reeks of internet forum rant) with no clear view of Marvel's response. It seems intentionally vague, but it's hard to tell who's the bad guy, if there really is one.

To play Devil's Advocate before people light up their torches to storm Marvel, Marvel have every right to request these trackers be taken down. Judging by the fact that it took multiple correspondances before Marvel indicated they would be informing other publishers of the site's activities, it sounds to me like Deicist might've overstepped his bounds on this one. The use of the term "pressed the issue" seems very intriguing to me.

[jza1218]

People don't download comics instead of buying them, they download comics as well as buying them

That Deicist guy is deluded if he thinks that this is the case. I'm sure that there are some people who do download and purchase the books, but it's kind of presumptuous to assume that it's a huge majority of people.

[hlbimage]

This is the best news article that Newsarama has ever posted. Stopping pirating is the only sure thing to alienate your fanbase. There's already been like twelve other comic pirating websites that has popped up since Z-Cult is cracking down on theirs. Most comics released last week are all out on the web. Even if Orboros is not uploading there's like three other people that took his place. There's no stopping this so give it up and embrace it by offering something better Marvel and DC.

[kbfore]

Thanks for the new torrent site. If it hadn't been for this action by DC I would have never heard of this site.

[mrhelm]

Originally Posted by Tekkamansol

People will continue to download, stop talking to Marvel, they aren't gonna change their minds, if there's a will there's a way. I download, and I but some but hey comincs are becoming more and more expenses, when I fist started reading 10 bucks got me a lot of comics now 10 will get me three books at most. What can I say I still want to to read them so , there's the will....I know it's wrong but hey so is a lot of things, itunes still has it though download and keep it forever, no drm.

Why is it so many pirates/defenders of piracy have barely any control over the English language?

Anyway, while I will agree that the no-download set up of Marvel's new service is utterly idiotic (an itune type set up with 50 cent or so downloads would be way superior IMO), I can't fault Marvel for making strides to protect the rights of their propeties As a would be creator, I will do everything to make sure my own products remain as un-pirated as possible. It's harder to defend in the case of these multi-million dollar studios, but you got to remember that for every download you make you're taking a dime out of a creator's pocket. And I don't buy this Deicist guy's argument one bit that ppl are buying AND downloading.

IMHO Marvel is doing exactly the right thing. By making it harder to download their material, they are helping to secure their own profitability.

Downloading is a fact of life nowadays and I totally agree with great sites like wowio that find ways to give away comics for free and still remain profitable. And maybe if comics was a bigger industry, I might even not frown on it so much. But when you look at struggling books that may die/have died because of downloads over purchase (Ant-Man comes to mind), it just makes me angry.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[Zabardast]

Originally Posted by jza1218

That Deicist guy is deluded if he thinks that this is the case. I'm sure that there are some people who do download and purchase the books, but it's kind of presumptuous to assume that it's a huge majority of people.

It's kind of funny how he says people want comics in electronic form... so why would they go out and buy the printed form after reading it online? For the most part that's absurd.

[0bsessions]

As a followup to my prior entry:

http://www.comicsearch.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=277e9b9b57b678fd2bf0 05dce7f5c315&topic=1114.msg4348#new

That's a link to CS's posting of the "exchange." Note that it conveniently goes from:

"Your opinion is appreciated and I will let people know the various complaints about our service. I will forward on your suggestions to the person in charge.

Again, I thank you for cooperating to remove the Marvel titles from your tracker and I encourage debate on this topic on your forum. Please do not allow members to link torrents on The Pirate Bay or from direct file sharing sites either, you should know better than that. If you support the industry, buy your own comic books. If you want to preview them, there are dozens of review sites out there that show the first few pages."

To "Continue to push the issue and I will contact the other publishers." The site doesn't list Deicist's response to what was a rather fair and reasonable statement from Marvel (Which followed a rather condescending response from "little guy" Deceist). The entire structure of the posted exchange versus whatever's been omitted is suspicious, to say the least.

Deicist's first post came off as a bit self righteous and know-it-allish. He was asking for trouble with that letter (Which essentially could be summed up with a "ur doin it rong" cat macro) and seemed to have been baiting Marvel (Also of note, I stumbled upon this place between the time ZCult went down and Thanksgiving. There were still plenty of Marvel trackers up in this timeframe). His response was even more know-it-allish with a bit of condescension thrown in. I really get the impression that this pattern continued and he just outright peeved the Marvel employee off.

[SkipShot]

I have downloaded my fair share of comics, but I have and will continue to buy the books that I want to buy. Downloads have introduced me to all sorts of books I would've never been interested in that I now want to own. It has increased my interest and my appetite for the medium and unfortunately for my budget, has also increased my appetite to buy and own more books. But comics also take up an enormous amount of space and for some books, I don't need to own the physical copy of it, I'd just like to have a digital file I can pull up and read and take with me on my laptop, etc. If there were a digital comics subscription service like Rhapsody that would allow me to download books that were portable files, I'd be all for paying for it. I can't really speak for anybody but myself, but I have a feeling there are a lot of people out there who do the same thing. They will continue to buy the stuff they want to own and download books that they are interested in, but not enough to spend the money until they find something that's worthy of purchasing.

[red-maverick]

I know I'm going to sound like a hypocrite when Im saying this but I don't care. I'm totally against pirating comics. Comics isn't a strong industry and needs all the sales it can get, downloading can really hurt the comic book industry. At least Marvel is trying to protect their material, sure their system is flawed in that you can't keep the comics you download but you can only read them online, but at least their trying.

Now here's where I come off as a hypocrite:

I download music from Limewire. But what makes this ok and downloading comics not ok is that the music industry is a strong one and downloading has little to no effect on the big music companies. Why do you think Radiohead just gave their songs away for free on their website. And by the way I still buy albums from indie bands because their not supported by a strong company and they need the sales. It's just the mainstream bands that are supported by a big company that I download music from.

[samuraiT]

Originally Posted by mrhelm

And I don't buy this Deicist guy's argument one bit that ppl are buying AND downloading.

Actually i do buy and download. I use previews to order about 40 + titles a month and still download stuff that i cant afford to older things that i simply cant find. Take that for what its worth.

[ssava]

Honestly I think all comic companies should adopt a "webcomic" mentality and put their comics online daily. Then collect them to trade.

It's worked wonderfully for The Dreamland Chronicles and I'm making more money from Advertising on the site than I EVER did on comic sales.

The comic industry needs to adapt to the younger audiences' preference to webcomics over pamphlets.

Adapt or die!
Ha ha. Well...maybe that was a bit melodramatic. But you get the idea.

[The Phazer]

Originally Posted by MattBrady

The discussion ended when the Marvel representative said that he would contact other publishers whose trackers appear on ComicSearch if “Deicist” continued to press the issue (which had gone from a discussion about the shortcomings (as “Deicist” saw them) of Marvel’s digital comics initiative, and was turning into a discussion about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and its enforceability outside of the United States, as ComicSearch is hosted in the U.K. “Deicist” has said that he will shortly be moving his server to Sweden, where The Pirate Bay is located.

If he does that he's incredibly, incredibly stupid.

He's in the UK, not the US. The DCMA doesn't protect him from copyright actions as long as the trackers are removed promptly, since he's in the UK. And Marvel can quite easily sue him (under British law) for the piracy that has already taken place, even if it's since been removed. The removal would mitigate the damages a bit, but given the number of infringements involved the amount might still come to six figures.

The only defence he has right now from bankruptcy is assuming Marvel are too lazy to sue for the old infringements. I suspect setting up another server dedicated to piracy in a different territory would "motivate" Marvel somewhat.

Phazer

[dlairman]

Originally Posted by jza1218

That Deicist guy is deluded if he thinks that this is the case. I'm sure that there are some people who do download and purchase the books, but it's kind of presumptuous to assume that it's a huge majority of people.

If so, it is just a presumptuous to assume the other way.....

[Ace]

Originally Posted by jza1218

That Deicist guy is deluded if he thinks that this is the case. I'm sure that there are some people who do download and purchase the books, but it's kind of presumptuous to assume that it's a huge majority of people.

I think it's a lot more reasonable to assume that people who download comics generally wouldn't buy them in hard copy format if they couldn't download them.

I would argue that the market numbers might point to this being a new audience that wants new comics the day that they come out in digital format, and not the preexisting audience. I'd also bet that a good chunk of this new audience would buy these comics (though perhaps not for 2.99 but since the cost of paper/printing/shipping/etc is dropped out, you SHOULD be able to have lower costs on those digital issues, no?).

I'd also argue that it's probably a good thing for Marvel/DC that they exist(even if it is completely wrong/immoral) and probably doubly so for independent publishers because it adds visibility and we're in a world where actually comic sales make up a piddling percentage of the money to be made from creating a comic book compared to movies, licensing, etc.

But I'm not saying much that we haven't heard already in this.

[SeanOnly]

Originally Posted by samuraiT

Actually i do buy and download. I use previews to order about 40 + titles a month and still download stuff that i cant afford to older things that i simply cant find. Take that for what its worth.

I think you missed his point. He's claiming that people are buying a copy, and downloading a copy so that they can file away the physical copy and not haver to ruin it by reading it.

[jayvee]

Originally Posted by ssava

Honestly I think all comic companies should adopt a "webcomic" mentality and put their comics online daily. Then collect them to trade.

It's worked wonderfully for The Dreamland Chronicles and I'm making more money from Advertising on the site than I EVER did on comic sales.

The comic industry needs to adapt to the younger audiences' preference to webcomics over pamphlets.

Adapt or die!
Ha ha. Well...maybe that was a bit melodramatic. But you get the idea.

This is smart! Smart, I tell you!

[weaselwelch]

Originally Posted by Blind Assassin

Ironically, I was just reading a blog about this very issue on Scott Saavedra's Blog:

It's actually an interesting read
http://comic_book_heaven.blogspot.co...nable-man.html

I just finished it also. And what he says makes sense.

But it boils down to this. People may not like it but downloading anything music, movies, comics and what ever with out paying for it is illegal. Simple as that.

Think about how you would like it if you put your hard work into writing something and then had people downloading copies with you getting paid for those copies. You wouldn't like it.

There is an argument when from people who down load music saying that the singers make millions so I what I do hurts them? Well maybe they do make millions(most due not unless the are a big name) but the point is they are untitled to part of the profits from the sales of the songs. And the ones you really hurt are the songwriters. Because thats were the real money comes from for them.

Well it's the same with comics. Yeah Marvel and DC makes millions but who you are really hurting are the writers and artist, colorers and so on. If sales are low on a book then it gets canceled and then you have people with out work.

Yes I think in the future Marvel should have single issues available for downloads but until they do work within the system.

[nwspencer]

Originally Posted by jza1218

That Deicist guy is deluded if he thinks that this is the case. I'm sure that there are some people who do download and purchase the books, but it's kind of presumptuous to assume that it's a huge majority of people.

I'd say it's presumptuous to assume the opposite as well, for the following reasons:

1) CBR files are hardly replacements for comics. They aren't as enjoyable to read, and won't be until there's a decent reader peripheral out there. A computer screen strains the eyes, the measurements of the average monitor make comic reading akward, and there's unreliability to the torrent system-- few packs contain a consistent lineup.

2) Comic book sales would suggest that torrents are NOT slowing buying interest in comics. In fact, you could posit the opposite-- torrents are helping comic sales. Sales of comics are up over the last few years, not down. So it's currently impossible to make the claim that torrents are hurting comics sales.

3) The few who are downloading only-- that is, not buying issues in print form-- are likely doing so because they can't afford to... which means this isn't going to bring those torrent readers into the shops, no matter what. But there are indirect benefits to keeping these readers. One, if their incomes rise, they are more likely to venture into shops, and two, it does potentially help with licensed ventures like movies and the like. Bottom line: more comic readers is probably better than fewer. Not only that, but torrents offer buyers with limited spending power the opportunity to sample a book and buy it if they like it. This leads to overall greater customer satisfaction, which is more likely to keep them buying comics-- people aren't getting burned spending 3 bucks on books they don't like, so they're happier when they leave the store.

People are making broad assumptions about who downloads comics and why. Fact is, we don't know. Marvel and DC didn't really do market research on the subject. But looking at the upward tick of sales and overall interest in comics, I think they're taking a huge risk in assuming the torrent world is hurting their business. This isn't music, or even movies. There are inherent advantages to the print format that technology hasn't caught up with yet. Sales of comics are up, not down-- that fact alone would make me nervous about rocking the boat too much.

Please understand, I'm NOT arguing that Marvel/DC doesn't have the right to do this. I'm saying it may not be a smart business decision on their part. They're ignoring recent history here to an unnerving degree. The Pirate Bay cannot be beat. Swedish servers can't be beat.Bigger industries have tried and failed. The music industry shut down Napster, only to suffer death by a thousand cuts.

This has never worked in the past, and it won't work now. The only thing that's been proven to have any success at all in preventing peer sharing is a licensed and legal purchase system like iTunes, Zune, or Unbox. And while Marvel has dipped a toe into the water here, the small selection and limited functionality is beginning to suggest it was more a PR cover for this legal strong-arming than anything else.

[JayCanuck]

I as well have downloaded my fair share of comics. I am certain I would never have purchased half the comic I currently own if it weren't for trying out downloads.

Unlike what Marvel says, for me anyway, it takes more that a few sample pages from an issue to decide if I want to pick it up, or even the entire series. I need to know who the characters are and what the plot might be. And usually, I find more books to buy than I originally was looking for. For example, I never would have picked up Silver Surfer Requiem is I hadn't seen the first issue online. Furthermore, in some cases, the story may be moving to slow for my taste. I may read the issues when they come out online, and then get the TPB.


Interestly enough, recently, the Canadian Government recently released their findings on p2p music downloads concluding that p2p downloads actually increase CD/online sales and concert ticket sales (see http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/..._ip01456e.html)

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by jza1218

That Deicist guy is deluded if he thinks that this is the case. I'm sure that there are some people who do download and purchase the books, but it's kind of presumptuous to assume that it's a huge majority of people.

Well comic sales have gone up in the last few years, so there's no reason to really assume the opposite either.

I really wish someone would do a real study on the whole, I download and buy thing.