Z-CULT FOLLOW-UP: DC, TOP COW AND THE FUTURE

[MattBrady]

by Matt Brady

As we reported Monday, the popular BitTorrent tracking site, Z-CultFM had received legal warnings from both Marvel and DC Comics late last week. As a result of further communication with one of the publishers, the site’s Administrator, who goes by the handle “Serj” at the site, began the removal process for all Marvel Comics from its trackers.

As of yesterday, the other shoe dropped, and “Serj” received similar notification from DC in a letter, an image of which he posted on the site:



Likewise, the site has received notice from Top Cow, and will be removing Top Cow trackers as well. Top Cow’s notice to its audience read:

Top Cow and ZCult FM have agreed to have all torrents of Top Cow comics removed from ZCult FM's website and trackers. ZCult FM has been incredibly professional and cordial in working with us to protect our copyrighted material. Top Cow sells our comics and graphic novels in comic shops, major book retailers, and online, but we also offer digital downloads of our material legally through Direct2Drive.com. We also have a variety of first issues available to read on our website (www.topcow.com) and we're providing ZCult FM with a number of special preview issues of Madame Mirage, The Darkness, Wanted, Tomb Raider, and Witchblade to share with you. We really appreciate how easy Serj and ZCult FM have been to work with and hope you guys will check out our digital download offerings.

”Serj” added: “Top Cow has offered to supply the site with previews etc of upcoming books so we will see where that leads.”

As for the future of Z-Cult, “Serj” posted:

Ok last 7 days has been hell for the staff of Z-Cult FM and myself. Its not easy seeing your pride and joy that you have worked on since 2004 start falling apart by losing files from few big players, but life must go on.

I was faced with the decision tonight if we should just quit and shut down site on a kinda high... well 72k users and most hits we have ever had in our life time or carry on the good fight and evolve. Well for time being we are going to stay here and see where this takes us.

Over the last few days we have hired more staff (I say hire but they work for nothing) and they will be helping removing torrents and also moderating the posts on here. I must stress I DO NOT want posts on this forum that follow the lines of: "Where can I get latest 0day/[insert name here] pack now"

First this is breaking our rules and second have some good manners. All posts like this will be removed and repeat offenders banned.

We are currently throwing few ideas about in the staff room on what road to take but whatever road we decide to take we hope you will be there with us supporting us all the way. Over the next month or two you should see some nice features going up, some new looks about the place and new sections opening up.

For next few days/week please be good comic fans/cultists because the staff are busy behind the scenes cleaning all sections up and I don't want them having to spend time policing debates over: "is our decision right/wrong?" or removing urls and requests for new places.

"Serj"closed his post asking for suggestions.

So what has been learned and where will things go from here?

The ride has just begun, apparently, if the response thread at Newsarama is any indication.

First off, a point that needs to be clarified again in the larger Z-Cult discussion – the site did not scan, upload or host Torrents of the comics themselves. The actual scanning and uploading was done by hundreds (thousands) of as of now, nameless individuals, and Z-Cult provided, essentially a map and instructions for the end user’s computer to find and download the comic book. Who downloaded the files? Again, hundreds (thousands) of as of now, nameless individuals.

As many have pointed out in the subsequent discussions regarding Z-Cult across the internet, the requests by Marvel, DC, Top Cow and others will likely not change the sheer number of comic book BitTorrents online, or the frequency by which they are uploaded. A Google search for “Comic book torrents” returns with over 2 million results, many with the names of comics that are available for download at various sites in the summary information. Z-Cult was arguably one of the most, if not the most popular BitTorrent tracker site for comics, but is by no means the only one. Additionally, again, as many who follow the RIAA, MPAA and others’ battles against internet Torrent sites have noted (and as even Top Cow pointed out), Z-Cult played nice. Sweden’s The Pirate Bay – which touts itself as the “world’s largest BitTorrent tracker” has virtually laughed off authorities (real police, as well as MPAA/RIAA nastygrams), relocated to different countries, and survived any number of legal threats. And of course, this isn’t even considering who will be the next Z-Cult. Clearly, if Marvel, DC and other comic book publishers are looking to take down all tracker sites, they have a task in front of them that would make Sisyphus feel good about his job, and lawyers start thumbing through the 2008 boat catalogs. The ones that show the big boats, not those puny, 45 foot yachts.

Along those lines, with the action against Z-Cult only having a superficial, if any, effect on the number of comic book torrents available online, many observers as well as downloaders are left wondering if the comics industry will soon be looking at a day when a publisher singles out and files suit against an individual who downloads – or scans and uploads comic books. While similar actions have shown little overall effectiveness in reducing the activity in the realm of movie and music or even as acting as a deterrent, they have been a public relations nightmare for the MPAA and RIAA. In an industry a few orders of magnitude smaller than either movies or music, one is drawn to ask what the effects of such a move by a comic publisher would be. Likewise, and this isn’t meant as a shot at the comic book industry, using the RIAA and MPAA cases as thumbnails, the legal costs to prosecute one such case of illegal uploading or downloading would quickly eat into even the largest comic book publisher’s bottom line.

Regardless of the possible tarnish that may come with future activity by publishers, it’s clear that, at least in the digital realm, the comic book industry has matured a little more and has been forced to confront pirated copies of their work being downloaded online. As for what this means in the big picture? Instead of a simple good guy/bad guy fight that superhero comics are best known for, the comic book industry can now join the MPAA, RIAA and other organizations in staring into a Pandora’s Box of downloading.

[Clem]

So everyone will be straight over to Pirate Bay in a matter of seconds.

It baffles me why the big companies don't just offer up these services themselves. Marvel are on the right track, but their whole "subscription to preview" schtick is never gonna work.

Would it really be so hard to band together and create some form of iComics?

[Gservo]

It will just get to the point where, people are not buying comics, and they will stop making them, plain and simple, everything cant be free

[vbartilucci]

I've been going on about that incessantly in the otiginal thread. The market had created itself - there would be no need to seek out customers.

BTW, Glenn Hauman has a nice piece on Comicmix in which he relates the story when he went to DC and told them about the downloading scene...two and a half years ago.

There's always a gamble when deciding if a new thing is just a fad or here to stay. But by this point, I think the permanence of the internet (in concept if not in detail) is fairly established.

Two years, at the most. Hopefully a lot sooner. Because with 90-odd percent of DC and Marvel's library scanned, it's not too hard to get it all for free.

But as I have said, if DC and Marvel offered a format comparable to CBZs at a fair price, I would drop paper issues like hot Promethium.

[hlbimage]

Thank god my comic store is friendly enough to allow read in store before purchase. It is almost the same as illegally downloading it except you don't have the hard copy that you bought right there on your table.

I really think hooking up with Apple is the way to go or Amazon.com because they just released an electronic tablet for digital reading called "Kindle". Come on it isn't rocket science to look for additional revenues in the digital age.

[De Martini]

Marvel Comics

[Nate-Earth 2]

I just don't get the whole downloading thing, period. For either new issues, or back issues. If you want them, buy them. What is hard to understand about that? What makes anyone entitled to have something a company has produced for a profit over 60 years in some cases, free, simply because they want something for free? It's the most ridiculous thing. "I can't afford all the new books I want to read." Well, then you don't get them, or you wait until you have enough money to get them. I can perhaps understand alot of the older Golden Age stuff, some people not able to afford those, but they make collections of those, so get those. I just think the arguement that downloading a comic for free supports the industry in some way, or that those who do are fans, is goofy as hell. Just as goofy as the "waiting for a trade supports the individual monthly series" mentality. Just stop whining, and buy the stuff you want. If you don't want to put out the money for it, then you must not want it that bad, so don't worry about it.

[Sesshomaru]

Originally Posted by Gservo

It will just get to the point where, people are not buying comics, and they will stop making them, plain and simple, everything cant be free

Or maybe marvel , dc and top cow could simply offer what people want to buy , instead of stupidly dying with the retailers

just don't get the whole downloading thing, period. For either new issues, or back issues. If you want them, buy them. What is hard to understand about that? What makes anyone entitled to have something a company has produced for a profit over 60 years in some cases, free, simply because they want something for free? It's the most ridiculous thing

How about you guys stop rehashing that over and over , it has been established those few last years , that plenty of use just want a legal download system . If you guys would check even the zcult forum you'd see that nil to no one ever complained about Marvel and DC "stealing their free comics" but lament the Stupid online , and not even properly approvisionned system , and want TO BUY downloaded comics , AND ALREADY BUY the papers .

Let's not even forget international readers like myself , whose only choice is to slowly import every month's comics offering , and in the meantime they get shipped are reading scans ...

If anything it proves our dedication to the medium ... in our situation , it's easy to guess that plenty would just give up comics ... too much hassle

[DarkJared]

Post preface: That was the warmest wording in a legal action warning letter I've ever seen!

This is doomed to failure. Once something is on the Internet you can never get rid of it. 5 years ago I ran a fansite with comic and scifi character skins for Freedom Force and The Sims for download (featured in Wizard and a number of gaming mags) and was requested by Marvel to take it down. I did and have not personally been involved with those files since then but I see them all the time floating around the Internet to this day. They are out there forever bouncing from one comp to another on file sharing programs and other sites. The same happens with porn - once that naked pic of you and your girlfried gets up there it will never be removable from the Internet. The same with scanned comics.

The genie is out of the bottle guys give it up and follow suit with the music industry. Offer low cost one time downloading of your product (not this subscription model) in file formats not viewable outside a proprietary viewer. I wanna take my comics with me when I travel on my laptop or PDA. Make yours a better and more reliable product for a low cost and you'll attract people who want to get the best version. I don't download music from file sharing programs. I buy it all online from a number of authorized sources because the price is right and the quality is generally better and 100% more reliable. And honestly - I don't want to break the law to get something. I can pay for what I actually want and I will happily do it - but I can only do it if that thing is actually available to buy and right now none of the major publishers deliver digital comics in a format that is worth paying for.

[scottmdavis]

can amazons kindle handle pictures? I thought it was straight up text.

[De Martini]

Originally Posted by Nate-Earth 2

If you don't want to put out the money for it, then you must not want it that bad, so don't worry about it.

Or maybe you're just cheap. Or maybe there are no comic shops around where you live. Or maybe you just want to try an issue out. Doesn't matter though, it's not really the issue.

The bigger issue here, of course, is for the major publishers to get off the ball and bring a digital initiative to their company that isn't completely half-assed (e.g. Marvel's DCU). 99-cent digital comic downloads would make them significantly more than a $3 to $4 direct market comic. The fact of the matter is, people are downloading comics anyhow. They can either bury their heads in the sand, or provide for a way to make comic downloading cheap, reliable, high-quality, and available.

Tying your long-term strategy to direct market retailers is pretty ludicrous at this point.

[tim seeley]

Almost ywo years ago, I noticed Hack/Slash on a torrent site and wrote Serj to ask him to take it off. He respectfully did. A few days later, the guy who had scanned them and posted them emailed me, apologizing, and explaining that he had posted them out of affection, and a desire to spread the word about the book. He also pointed me to some forums where readers explained they preferred to read their books digitally, and if it was offered on a pay site, they would pay. Realizing I was being a bit "Metallica to Napster," I told Serj to go ahead and post it back up.
A year later, I posted all the H/S stuff in a non DRM (or whatever it's called) format at Pullbox Online, thinking, "Hey, all those guys who want to read books digitally will love this."
Guess what?
Now, you can find H/S free to download even EASIER than before. And, I don't get a penny, nor do any of my artists.
In the end, it'll be the indy comics who get hosed here. Marvel and DC can flex legal muscle and spend money, while I can stand by and watch people download my stuff, books that already sell less than the big guy's books, all the while hoping readers do the decent thing and buy it.

TIM SEELEY

[Nate-Earth 2]

Originally Posted by Sesshomaru

Or maybe marvel , dc and top cow could simply offer what people want to buy , instead of stupidly dying with the retailers


How about you guys stop rehashing that over and over , it has been established those few last years , that plenty of use just want a legal download system . If you guys would check even the zcult forum you'd see that nil to no one ever complained about Marvel and DC "stealing their free comics" but lament the Stupid online , and not even properly approvisionned system , and want TO BUY downloaded comics , AND ALREADY BUY the papers .

Let's not even forget international readers like myself , whose only choice is to slowly import every month's comics offering , and in the meantime they get shipped are reading scans ...

If anything it proves our dedication to the medium ... in our situation , it's easy to guess that plenty would just give up comics ... too much hassle

Well, there are plenty of those who have posted on here, who just want the free comics, for the sake of being free. And while I don't really like the idea of offering them online period, as opposed to the actual physical book, I wouldn't really care if they offered a service that fit the need of those who did want them on their computer, for a price thats the same as buying the actual physical book. I"ve seen people post on here "yeah, i'd definitely sign up if they offered 25 or 30 dollars a month for every single issue released by DC, Wildstorm, Vertigo, etc." Well, thats not really the same price as if you were to buy them all over that month. If its 3 to download a book that yo would normally buy in store, that makes sense to me, if all the downloaders want is the ease.
Yeah, and i keep in mind those not in America wanting to read these books. One of my best freinds, after graduation, went to go in Hong Kong about two years ago, and he keeps up by us sending trades or individual issues every so often. He may download like one issue, jsut to see if he is interested, and then buy that issue and all following ones, which is fine with me too. I just don't care for the idea of downloading an entire series for free, or close to free.

[MattBrady]

Originally Posted by DarkJared

5 years ago I ran a fansite with comic and scifi character skins for Freedom Force and The Sims for download (featured in Wizard and a number of gaming mags) and was requested by Marvel to take it down.

Newsarama did a story on it, and I wrote it. I feel so old now.

MattB

[Chris]

Originally Posted by MattBrady

Newsarama did a story on it, and I wrote it. I feel so old now.

MattB

And I read it. Wow. I feel even older...



Chris

[Sesshomaru]

A year later, I posted all the H/S stuff in a non DRM (or whatever it's called) format at Pullbox Online, thinking, "Hey, all those guys who want to read books digitally will love this."
Guess what?
Now, you can find H/S free to download even EASIER than before. And, I don't get a penny, nor do any of my artists.
In the end, it'll be the indy comics who get hosed here. Marvel and DC can flex legal muscle and spend money, while I can stand by and watch people download my stuff, books that already sell less than the big guy's books, all the while hoping readers do the decent thing and buy it.

TIM SEELEY

At least you gave it a chance . But see what is pullbox ?I'm into digital comics obviously , and i wasnt even aware it existed and just checked it out . I'd bet you it wouldnt be the same thing if the industry would just organize itself around ONE big plateform ... or given Marvel's and DC's appetites two plateforms for legal comics .

Sorry for your trouble , when you actually did the right thing , however the site is far too confidential . In the music area itune wasnt the first one , but became quite known , while obscure equivalent couldnt succeed .
Unless word about pullbox gets around , and it start building a huge selling community , i cant see it really work .

In short we are still waiting for our comics Itune , or two dc and Marvel equivalents , with top cow , image and others sticking to one of them , or creating their own space .

Anyway i'd say that giving up selling them online isnt an option , the books are out there , just like illegal music there is no stopping it ..
The thing is to still propose the right alternative .... without it everyone will just go free

[gm043503]

Originally Posted by tim seeley

Almost ywo years ago, I noticed Hack/Slash on a torrent site and wrote Serj to ask him to take it off. He respectfully did. A few days later, the guy who had scanned them and posted them emailed me, apologizing, and explaining that he had posted them out of affection, and a desire to spread the word about the book. He also pointed me to some forums where readers explained they preferred to read their books digitally, and if it was offered on a pay site, they would pay. Realizing I was being a bit "Metallica to Napster," I told Serj to go ahead and post it back up.
A year later, I posted all the H/S stuff in a non DRM (or whatever it's called) format at Pullbox Online, thinking, "Hey, all those guys who want to read books digitally will love this."
Guess what?
Now, you can find H/S free to download even EASIER than before. And, I don't get a penny, nor do any of my artists.
In the end, it'll be the indy comics who get hosed here. Marvel and DC can flex legal muscle and spend money, while I can stand by and watch people download my stuff, books that already sell less than the big guy's books, all the while hoping readers do the decent thing and buy it.

TIM SEELEY

I can't guarantee other people have but after reading a little your work online I did go out and buy more. I'm picky as hell about comics (I only started reading two years ago) and was off work ill for 2 months and discovered comics though zcult. Without them and the random other sources the industry would never have gotten a penny of my money. However, I realise I'm probably in the minority.

[SageShini]

Newsarama already said it all, as far as this Z-Cult thing goes. They may have been the biggest, but they're certainly not the only one. Which is good. Downloading has become my equalizer. I download something, and if its good (when I can actually pay for it), I immediately go buy it. If it sucks, I delete it, and forget it exists. I'm sure the old people would say that's not how it works...I honestly don't care. The truth is I like more stuff than I don't like (I don't even mind paying for Countdown...well, I don't mind too much), so I don't think its fair if I buy something and think it sucks that I'm just screwed out of my money. Now I don't have that problem. (Of course, this doesn't account for the occasional impulse buy, but if I buy something on impulse and it sucks, I'm fully willing to accept that its my fault for not checking it out first.)

This may mean DC is gearing up to do something similar to what Marvel's doing, with its digital comics service. I'll say this upfront: Unless it becomes the only way to read comics, I'll never pay for digi-comics. I'm sure some people prefer it that way, but I don't. To me a digital copy is just a trial copy. I pay for paper comics because I want to support the industry, sure, but I also like to take comics places a computer/laptop can't go. So as long as I can support comics by buying paper issues, I will continue to ignore any sort of digital comic service they create.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Nate-Earth 2

If its 3 to download a book that yo would normally buy in store, that makes sense to me, if all the downloaders want is the ease.

So you're saying it'd be cool if the digital comic cost the same as the book in the store? Umm...I don't think it really works that way. With a download there aren't as many costs involved, so it should be a bit cheaper. Of course, this may not be what you mean, I'm not sure.

[SpyGuy]

Originally Posted by Nate-Earth 2

I just don't get the whole downloading thing, period. For either new issues, or back issues. If you want them, buy them. What is hard to understand about that? What makes anyone entitled to have something a company has produced for a profit over 60 years in some cases, free, simply because they want something for free? It's the most ridiculous thing. "I can't afford all the new books I want to read." Well, then you don't get them, or you wait until you have enough money to get them. I can perhaps understand alot of the older Golden Age stuff, some people not able to afford those, but they make collections of those, so get those. I just think the arguement that downloading a comic for free supports the industry in some way, or that those who do are fans, is goofy as hell. Just as goofy as the "waiting for a trade supports the individual monthly series" mentality. Just stop whining, and buy the stuff you want. If you don't want to put out the money for it, then you must not want it that bad, so don't worry about it.

I think the simplest explanation for downloading is "because you can." If something you could only get for by paying is now able to be obtained for free, thanks to advances in technology, and you have a choice (ethical or not, legal or not) of getting it for free or paying money for it, many people will go for getting it for free. This is a society of Haves and Have-Nots and some of the Have-Nots are using the tools at their disposal to becomes Haves.

Sure, it may be wrong to download and depending if enough of the majority views it as being wrong, it may be considered illegal in terms of the law. But even with potential consequences, the drive to be that Have is enough for some people to disregard those ethical and legal issues. If they can't afford something and see that someone else can, or that the creative artists are rich enough to ride around in plush limousines and personal jets while they can barely afford a used 1987 Oldsmobile, that can create resentment and class envy. Downloading is a tool being used to balance those societal scales somewhat and is forcing radical changes to traditional forms of selling artistic works for profit.

Welcome to the future.

[pmpknface]

Originally Posted by Clem

So everyone will be straight over to Pirate Bay in a matter of seconds.

It baffles me why the big companies don't just offer up these services themselves. Marvel are on the right track, but their whole "subscription to preview" schtick is never gonna work.

Would it really be so hard to band together and create some form of iComics?

Then Pirate Bay will be the next to receive letters.

And what do you mean "sub to preview?" Marvel's deal has you being able to read whole books (as many as you want) for a month at a time or for a year.

And is it hard to "band together?" Are you kidding me? It's nearly impossible! DC wants almost nothing to do with Marvel as long as Joe Q is there, as they have made completely clear. Then factor in any number of other indy pubs, revenue distribution, maintenance fees, etc...

Each company, in time, will do their own deal as they see fit. Don't like it? BUY THE BOOKS!

[Captain616]

Originally Posted by tim seeley

Almost ywo years ago, I noticed Hack/Slash on a torrent site and wrote Serj to ask him to take it off. He respectfully did. A few days later, the guy who had scanned them and posted them emailed me, apologizing, and explaining that he had posted them out of affection, and a desire to spread the word about the book. He also pointed me to some forums where readers explained they preferred to read their books digitally, and if it was offered on a pay site, they would pay. Realizing I was being a bit "Metallica to Napster," I told Serj to go ahead and post it back up.
A year later, I posted all the H/S stuff in a non DRM (or whatever it's called) format at Pullbox Online, thinking, "Hey, all those guys who want to read books digitally will love this."
Guess what?
Now, you can find H/S free to download even EASIER than before. And, I don't get a penny, nor do any of my artists.
In the end, it'll be the indy comics who get hosed here. Marvel and DC can flex legal muscle and spend money, while I can stand by and watch people download my stuff, books that already sell less than the big guy's books, all the while hoping readers do the decent thing and buy it.

TIM SEELEY

Sadly, I think you might be right, Tim.

Just like the main story says, Z-Cult 'play nice'. True, they aren't the largest tracker on the Internet, but they have been probably the best organized tracker for comics. Their archive was large, their users loyal, and they work to a code of conduct. Ask to have work removed and they will oblige.

The vast majority of trackers online do not operate this way...

By removing the guys who play nice you create another dozen groups who don't. Trackers hosted by people who cannot be easily reasoned with and cannot be tracked down.

All I see happening with the removal of three larger publishers from Z-Cult is that the guys who scan for them will go elsewhere. And not just one place elsewhere, probably several. And it's that kind of Hydra effect which is more likely to cause greater damage.

[De Martini]

Originally Posted by pmpknface

DC wants almost nothing to do with Marvel as long as Joe Q is there, as they have made completely clear.

Like the annual DC/Marvel softball game?

[Darksbane]

I'm not going to deny that price is an issue, but the biggest issue for me for wanting downloaded comics is space. I have a big house but I have an even bigger collection of comics. I have no room for them anymore. Marvel's new service is nice but there are so many gaps in the issues that I can't really dig it yet. Plus I actually want to own what I get and don't want to have to wait 6 stupid months to get a comic. I want to buy them digitally every wednesday download them to my PC and let that be that.

[The Funketeer]

People keep throwing the word entitlement around. I don't think anyone feels entitled to free comics but they're available and people are going to take them.

If I go to a library to check out and read a book I'm not paying for, is that stealing? If a friend buys a comic and loans it to me to read, is that stealing? You could argue that the physical property is changing hands and that while I am reading, the original owner is no longer in possession of the material so nothing is being duplicated and the content is being shared on a limited basis but at the same time, I'm getting the content for free and not buying the material which in theory takes money out of the creator's pocket.

The real issue here and with movie and music downloads, is the rights of the owner. What needs to be determined is if I purchase a physical comic or CD, does that belong to me and do I have the right to do with it as I please? Having paid for that content, do I or I do not have the right to share it with others and what constitutes sharing? The concepts have not changed, only the technology which allows us to share on a much larger scale.

[kalandine]

My understanding of some companies approach to stop music downloading has been to provide messed up versions in the hundreds on the most popular sites. One act created over a 1000 users, and each one had a messed version of the same song with different sample rates, comments, and file lengths.

If you download a bad version of a comic a dozen times from a dozen different sources, you will eventually give up. At least that was the theory.

DC or Marvel could probably hire one or two internet-savvy fans to do this for them and simply hose the middlemen. If single sources for good downloads popped up, you could legally go after them individually.