KYLE BAKER ON SPECIAL FORCES AND MORE

[MattBrady]

by Zack Smith

Whether it’s his hilarious observations on family life in The Bakers, the wild satire of such graphic novels as Why I Hate Saturn, The Cowboy Wally Show, or his dark look at slavery in Nat Turner, Kyle Baker has constantly proven to be one of comics’ most diverse and idosyncratic talents. Now, the multiple Eisner-winner will take on the U.S. military in Image Comics’ new miniseries Special Forces, about an autistic boy recruited by the Army....a tale that’s based on an unfortunately true story.

A casual chat with the multitalented Baker soon proved as entertaining as his comics, as he covered everything from his decision to go with Image after years of self-publishing, the problems he faced writing and illustrating DC’s award-winning Plastic Man series, and where you might soon find The Bakers in animated form. With opinions on everything from the comics industry to the animation industry to the state of American newspapers, it’s easy to see why Kyle Baker is one of the busiest men in comics.

Newsarama: Kyle, thanks for talking with us. I’d like to focus on Special Forces. This was inspired by a true story…?

Kyle Baker: Yeah, I got the idea from the newspaper, because there have been a lot of articles recently about army recruiting improprieties. For some reason, no one wants to join the army right now, so recruiters are getting desperate. (They’re) bending the rules. And they’re getting caught a lot – they’ve let felons in, and mental patients who should be on Prozac – “You’re schizophrenic? Come on in!” Things like that.

NRAMA: Oh man…

KB: And it got so bad that they recruited an autistic kid, and the parents put up a fight, and the army didn’t want to let him out! He passed the written exam, he passed the physical, and technically, the volunteered!

NRAMA: That’s almost like the comic story Jules Feiffer did, Munro, about the four-year-old who’s recruited by the army…

KB: Yeah, Munro! It is really similar, because basically, he can’t fight! He’s physically healthy, and he can read and write, but that doesn’t mean he can fight! Fortunately (in real life) they got him out.

So my story is – what if they didn’t get him out? What if he didn’t have any parents? So it becomes almost like a Forrest Gump-type comedy. I also thought, “Our generation needs a war comedy.” You’ve got Catch-22, you’ve got Dr. Strangelove, but you need one for this war.

NRAMA: Even the last Iraq war had Three Kings…

KB: Exactly! So this is our Catch-22 for this war.

NRAMA: Is Special Forces a fictionalization of this specific person, or did you just take the idea and go in your own direction with it?

KB: No, it’s not based directly on (that story), but it’s got a lot of elements that are true – things I got out of the newspaper, like they’re sending these guys out in unarmored vehicles, or that all these citizens who get jobs for Halliburton wind up getting kidnapped and beheaded.

NRAMA: Sounds like you did a lot of research for this one.

KB: You know, it wasn’t even research! I happen to enjoy reading the newspaper.

NRAMA: A declining trend in today’s world…

KB: Well, you see, I happen to read a different newspaper. I tend to read The Wall Street Journal, for one simple reason – you’ll never see Britney Spears on the cover of The Wall Street Journal. There’s no Anna Nicole Smith coverage! No Janet Jackson boobies! You’ll never see a guy cut up his wife on the cover of The Wall Street Journal.

But they do give you accurate statistics about the war, because you need to know where to put your money. So they will tell you that all contracts are going to Halliburton, no bid, (laughs) they’ll tell you that we’re losing…how many people are dying…how much the war is costing…they’ll tell you the truth, because they figure you’ll probably want to know how to invest your money if you’re reading The Wall Street Journal! They’ll give you accurate employment statistics, they’ll tell you that all the jobs are going to India and China, things like that.

To give an example, the day after the tsunami, which in my opinion is probably the worst disaster ever – oh, it’s not even my opinion, that’s the fact. It’s the worst disaster ever and it’s probably going to change history, the environment, it’s going to be seen in history as one of the most important things to happen in our lifetime.

The day after the tsunami, front-page news was, “Brad Pitt and Jennifer Anniston break up.” So that’s what most people care about instead of real life. And I tend to read the paper about the war, and it’s just amazing how badly it’s run. (laughs) If I ran a business like that, I’d be out of business.

NRAMA: You’ve used a number of styles for your comic stories – how are you doing this one? Are you going to do it in sequential style, “storyboard” style like Why I Hate Saturn and your other graphic novels, or will you try something new?

KB: It’s a comic. This one I’m doing, basically, for the Image/Diamond comic book business….all hot chicks, guns and explosions.

NRAMA: This is the first time you’ve done one of your satires as a limited series, as opposed to a graphic novel or one-shot. Why’d you decide to go with this format?

KB: Because, like I say, I’m working for Image, and I’ve come to the conclusion that when you’re doing stuff for the comic book market…there are almost like two different comic book markets now.

The first is the bookstore/Barnes & Noble market, which where (in a Barnes & Noble), you’ll see a lot of Harvey Pekar, a lot of Robert Crumb, Dan Clowes, Persepolis, and a lot of manga.

And that stuff does great there, but (not so well) in the comic book stores. Vice-versa, the stuff that does well in the comic book stores – take, say, whatever the best-selling comic book was last year, Civil War or something like that – it’s not going to do as well in bookstores! I know it, I know it’s not getting as much shelf space as Dan Clowes in a Barnes & Noble, but it does great in a comic book store.

So, with Image, you know…why fight it? I made that mistake with Plastic Man. I did a comic for an audience that wasn’t there. I did a kid’s book, and then it was sent out and read by old men who hated it. So this time, I’m just going to do one for the boys. (laughs) I’m going to draw it in a realistic style and blow shit up and have some hot chicks.

NRAMA: But wouldn’t this go to the bookstore market once it’s collected?

KB: Yes! That’s true. That’s true. But you have to succeed in the first market before you can make it over to the second market.

NRAMA: You make it sound like Plastic Man was a painful experience for you, personally.

KB: Not really! It was a lot of work…much too much work. It had more drawings on a page than I usually do, definitely more jokes than I usually do. My gag books normally have one joke on a page, two jokes on a page, but I wanted this to read like MAD magazine when I was a kid.

I wanted it to have that look and feel of a cartoon with too many jokes…but then I had to think of too many jokes, and then I had to think of at least 22 things per month for Plastic Man to turn into. (laughs) And they had to be funny. You couldn’t just have him turn into a desk lamp or something.

NRAMA: So was this a case of a lot of work for not a lot of reward…?

KB: Well, you know, you’re busting your ass, and the fans are complaining, and…well, whatever, they’re right! It wasn’t that…it’s that it wasn’t my thing, it wasn’t my book.

For example, with Nat Turner, I knew that maybe the typical superfan won’t want to read Nat Turner, but somebody’s going to want to read Nat Turner, probably schoolteachers and librarians. And if you’re independent, which I am, if I want to focus my marketing efforts on the librarians, like when I went to a library trade show a couple weeks ago, I can do that.

Whereas, when you’re part of those big corporations, you can’t do anything. You can say, “Oh, I think we should do this with this character,” but you have to go through meetings and…you know. That’s why I do it myself. I’ve been doing this for 20 years, and I know what I’m doing and I know where my audience is for different things.

For example, I know the family stuff, The Bakers, sells to a different market than the superhero books I did 20 years ago. I think something we all have to remember is that the core audience for any type of cartoon, be it animation, comics, or the funny papers, is children, who spend a lot more money on these things than any other audience – look at all the SpongeBob shirts you’ll see just walking around!

Now, Marvel Comics is renewing their focus on kids, and putting out comics geared toward kids because…killing Captain America might be a little too heavy for them.

And you have to do that. You don’t want to end up like…the example I’ll use is Tom Mix and dime novels. Dime novels were huge, and then they became collectibles, and then everyone who was collecting them died. (laughs) An issue of Amazing Tales went from 100 to 10 cents overnight! All the fans died! You’ve got to make sure you have new stuff!

NRAMA: Regarding your older graphic novels, such as Saturn and Wally, do you plan to reissue those through Image, or does DC still hold the rights?

KB: DC owns the rights. I actually hold all the other media rights for those, except for Saturn -- Warner Brothers owns that properties. It’s funny – I don’t have the rights to publish the book of I Die at Midnight, but I have the right to make an animated film based on that. So I’m doing that – I’m adapting all that into other formats.

NRAMA: A few years ago, you were talking about doing a Cowboy Wally sequel. Is that still on the books?

KB: Yeah! What I’ve been doing is building up my animation company, Kyle Baker Animation. I’m looking at the history of Walt Disney, the most successful cartoonist of all time – I think everyone would agree on that. I read all kinds of books about him and try and be like him, along with Joe Barbera’s biography.

And both those guys always made sure they owned the rights to their stuff, and that they had their own animation studios. The biggest problem most guys have is that no one wants to make their movie – well, you don’t need anyone to make your movie! I’m getting into some different types of animation – you might see The Bakers animation on your cell phone.

The whole world is changing! When I started in the entertainment business, working for Warner Brothers in the 1990s developing TV shows and stuff, it used to be that the studios would make stuff, and they’d sell it to one of the television networks, who would pay for the series, and the network would make back their money from the advertisers.

When there were only three TV networks, shows were getting audiences in the millions, and now, with all the channels, network audiences can get down to the hundreds of thousands. And now, there’s more overlap between studios and networks – when the WB was around, if you made a show at Warner Brothers Studios and you sold it to the WB, you were selling it to yourself, no one makes any money. Right now, the key is owning the content, not the monopoly on distribution. That’s the mistake the big companies are making. If you make the cartoon, you can get it out there, because there’s a zillion outlets.

The big thing now is to raise the money yourself, and make the cartoon yourself, which is what I’m doing. I’m working on The Bakers stuff, and I’m working on a King David feature.

NRAMA: Sounds like you’ve got a lot on your plate? Are you ever going to do another Biblical GN like David?

KB: Samson’s the next one. I’m going to do Samson next.

NRAMA: And what’s next after Special Forces?

KB: Well, The Bakers is doing really well, so there’s going to be more of that. There’s the latest book called Babies and Kittens, and another one I don’t know the title of yet, but it’s already done…there’s still like 90 pages of cartoons that haven’t been reprinted, stuff from other anthologies and different issues, that’s never been collected, and that comes after Babies and Kittens, which is original. And there’s a kids’ book I want to do, about a dog from outer space.

But it always depends on what’s working , and we’ve done really well with Nat Turner, so I want to do some more with that – maybe Harriet Tubman, or Frederick Douglass. I’ve found out a couple interesting things about them…I originally wasn’t interested in doing something with them because I thought they were boring, but then I found out Harriet Tubman was packin’. And I found out Frederick Douglass beat up his master, so I thought, “That’s a comic book right there!”

It’s like with King David – kids might think the Bible is boring, it’s all about morals and flowery language, but you add sex and violence and they’re on it.

NRAMA: So that’s the secret to the youth market – sex and violence.

KB: Yeah, it’s no secret! (laughs) It’s workin’ for 50 Cent.

NRAMA: Last question – as should be obvious from this interview, you’re able to work on a lot of different projects, writing and drawing, in many different mediums, simultaneously. For aspiring creators out there – what’s your secret?

KB: Well, most of this stuff is self-financed. Something like Nat Turner – I haven’t been paid for it yet! I spent years doing it for free, and financed it myself, did the printing, and we have to earn those printing and marketing costs they put into it.

But while I’m working on that stuff and waiting for the money to come in, I need things where the money’s coming in. So I have other stuff – I just finished a book for Watson-Guphill about how to make comics called How to Draw Stupid, how to do comics my way.

And I had to do a Disney Channel job for their show Phineas and Ferb a couple months ago to keep my union benefits, because self-employed – no health insurance! And at the same time, I was working on Andre 3000’s Cartoon Network show Class of 3000, the Christmas special. So if you watch the Christmas special – that’s me!

[magik2381]

That pyramid cover is amazingly politically incorrect. I love it.

[GradyTripp31]

I loved Baker's Plastic Man and can't wait for Special Forces.

But... ummm.... when does it come out?

[matchesmalone]

This looks great. It's unfortunate that the events that inspired it occurred, but this is the best possible response.

[The_Adventurer]

I don't know, it looks like it's trying to beat me over the head with it's "message". That's a bit of a turn off.

[matchesmalone]

I wouldn't say Kyle Baker tends to the subtle ...

[sonorous]

...that is all.

Highly underrated as both an artist and a writer. His work is the sort of stuff that people will look back on like Eisner or Harvey Pekar in the future, while most simply ignore it while he's alive.

Getting this for sure!

[matchesmalone]

But I know what you mean. It's tough to do this kind of work without sounding (looking?) heavy-handed.

[AbacusComics]

Originally Posted by magik2381

That pyramid cover is amazingly politically incorrect. I love it.

Yeah it is. lol.

[Eric Palicki]

I would walk barefoot over broken glass to read a Kyle Baker comic.

[johnnygo]

I so desperately want to see reprints of Kyle Baker's work in THE SHADOW and especially JUSTICE, INC. That's some of his finest ever work, and well deserves to see the light of day again!

[Jeremy Williams]

This looks tremendous. I didn't know Mr. Baker was capable of such versatility. Heck I would have love such war-time realism in his Cap: Truth progect.

[kalorama]

Originally Posted by matchesmalone

But I know what you mean. It's tough to do this kind of work without sounding (looking?) heavy-handed.

It's satire. It's not really supposed to be sly and subtle.

[fast eddie]

Originally Posted by johnnygo

I so desperately want to see reprints of Kyle Baker's work in THE SHADOW and especially JUSTICE, INC. That's some of his finest ever work, and well deserves to see the light of day again!

Couldn't agree more! Just pulled that stuff out the other day to look at it again. Love it! Unfortunately I doubt we'll ever see more of it or even collected editions of them since it's a licensed property that is probably not cost effective for DC to renew. Oh well, we'll just have to enjoy what we have.

[sonorous]

Originally Posted by fast eddie

Couldn't agree more! Just pulled that stuff out the other day to look at it again. Love it! Unfortunately I doubt we'll ever see more of it or even collected editions of them since it's a licensed property that is probably not cost effective for DC to renew. Oh well, we'll just have to enjoy what we have.

Agreed. Justice Inc was amazing! Pretty sure you can still pick it up easily in the original issues pretty cheaply.

Worth every penny. The end twist to the story is a stunner!

[phunengames]

NRAMA: You’ve used a number of styles for your comic stories – how are you doing this one? Are you going to do it in sequential style, “storyboard” style like Why I Hate Saturn and your other graphic novels, or will you try something new?

KB: It’s a comic. This one I’m doing, basically, for the Image/Diamond comic book business….all hot chicks, guns and explosions.

NRAMA: This is the first time you’ve done one of your satires as a limited series, as opposed to a graphic novel or one-shot. Why’d you decide to go with this format?

KB: Because, like I say, I’m working for Image, and I’ve come to the conclusion that when you’re doing stuff for the comic book market…there are almost like two different comic book markets now.

The first is the bookstore/Barnes & Noble market, which where (in a Barnes & Noble), you’ll see a lot of Harvey Pekar, a lot of Robert Crumb, Dan Clowes, Persepolis, and a lot of manga.

And that stuff does great there, but (not so well) in the comic book stores. Vice-versa, the stuff that does well in the comic book stores – take, say, whatever the best-selling comic book was last year, Civil War or something like that – it’s not going to do as well in bookstores! I know it, I know it’s not getting as much shelf space as Dan Clowes in a Barnes & Noble, but it does great in a comic book store.

So, with Image, you know…why fight it? I made that mistake with Plastic Man. I did a comic for an audience that wasn’t there. I did a kid’s book, and then it was sent out and read by old men who hated it. So this time, I’m just going to do one for the boys. (laughs) I’m going to draw it in a realistic style and blow ____ up and have some hot chicks.

NRAMA: But wouldn’t this go to the bookstore market once it’s collected?

KB: Yes! That’s true. That’s true. But you have to succeed in the first market before you can make it over to the second market.

NRAMA: You make it sound like Plastic Man was a painful experience for you, personally.

KB: Not really! It was a lot of work…much too much work. It had more drawings on a page than I usually do, definitely more jokes than I usually do. My gag books normally have one joke on a page, two jokes on a page, but I wanted this to read like MAD magazine when I was a kid.

I wanted it to have that look and feel of a cartoon with too many jokes…but then I had to think of too many jokes, and then I had to think of at least 22 things per month for Plastic Man to turn into. (laughs) And they had to be funny. You couldn’t just have him turn into a desk lamp or something.

NRAMA: So was this a case of a lot of work for not a lot of reward…?

KB: Well, you know, you’re busting your ass, and the fans are complaining, and…well, whatever, they’re right! It wasn’t that…it’s that it wasn’t my thing, it wasn’t my book.

This hurt I loved Platic Man.
People complain that DC has "lost" its fun but would refuse to pick up Platic Man. At least it lasted longer than the Heckler. Plastic Man poked fun at DC all of the time. I guess it was too much for some DC fans that had to be serious about thier fun.

To me "It is too cartoonly" was a lame complaint for the book.

Word to the wise. If everyone is "waiting on the trade" the book dose not sell and why would a compay want to "trade" a book that does not sell?

[TheToileteer]

Three Kings was not actually a comedy.

I hope Kyle Baker doesn't feel too bad about Plastic Man's failure in the marketplace. It was surely an artistic / creative high point for the character.

[The_Adventurer]

Originally Posted by kalorama

It's satire. It's not really supposed to be sly and subtle.

I don't know, the best satire is both sly and subtle at all times. If it's not it often just comes off as preachy.


"LOL Bush R Dum" Jokes were old a year after he took office after all.

[sfritz]

The brilliant Mr. Baker sez...

"Well, you see, I happen to read a different newspaper. I tend to read The Wall Street Journal, for one simple reason ? you?ll never see Britney Spears on the cover of The Wall Street Journal. There?s no Anna Nicole Smith coverage! No Janet Jackson boobies! You?ll never see a guy cut up his wife on the cover of The Wall Street Journal.

But they do give you accurate statistics about the war, because you need to know where to put your money. So they will tell you that all contracts are going to Halliburton, no bid, (laughs) they?ll tell you that we?re losing?how many people are dying?how much the war is costing?they?ll tell you the truth, because they figure you?ll probably want to know how to invest your money if you?re reading The Wall Street Journal! They?ll give you accurate employment statistics, they?ll tell you that all the jobs are going to India and China, things like that.

To which I have to say, Hey Kyle, love ya buddy but what about Rupert Murdoch buying Dow Jones just so he can get his fascistic mitts on the Journal? Do you think this kinda changes things? I mean this is the man that gives you the New York Post and Fox News after all.

-s

[panicbxmb]

i never knew his art was this damn good until recently. i love it

[BillReed]

This interview was too awesome for words.

Kyle Baker rocks.

[hondo]

I have never read anything of his that hasn't been pure cartoonist magic.

One of the most underrated books of the decade has been his "I Die At Mignight" from Vertigo.

I loved his Captain America : Truth, Plastic Man, The Cowboy Wally Show, etc.

It's amazing to me he's not in the top echelon of creators like say, Bill Sienkiewicz.

Hopefully more people will catch on. I wish him the absolute best and will snap this up.

[MarsHottento]

I think his work is fantastic but probably doesn't resonate with the teenage demographic as his comic work looks like American animation. Think about it. Most of the kids today only know American animation as something old, formulaic and archaic (read 80's & 90's Disney product). Today the only stuff that isn't anime, or at least anime influenced, is aimed at kids or is comedic in nature. Not what a dead serious, angst ridden teen will plunk down his loot for. Maybe Kyle can usher in a new golden age of American animation?

This book... I don't know. The premise is certainly brilliant, I'm just worried that the 'shock & awe' covers may turn away the very people who NEED to read this (or anything with an opposing view to what the mass media is giving) before they even crack the cover (not unlike Warren Ellis' BLACK SUMMER). I hope I'm wrong, but I'm sure someone will let me know different.

[Arnout]

I dunno if Kyle is all that underrated or underappreciated.
I certainly respect him as a person & his vast body of work.
His tendency to try out new styles & ideas is laudable at the least, but that also means that some of his work (like Plastic Man & Truth) was not all that much to my liking. I loved Birth of a Nation & King David, though that had some computer-experiments that left me cold & which I think were in Truth as well.
I've been following Kyle ever since his adaptations of Cyrano de Bergerac & Through the Looking Glass. I've seen Justice Inc & will track it down.
This new project: very promising.
Looking forward to that first issue.

[Luke Cage Jr]

Kyle's a genius...after talking with him at Heroes Con(which was the highlight of my weekend!), I see the man is a visionary.His art, his story, AWESOME!! I'm on board a month ago! Thanks Kyle!!!!!!!!!