JUDD WINICK: MAYORS, MARRIAGE & MORE

[MattBrady]

by Troy Brownfield

As big events came to pass in the world of Green Arrow, what with the end of the current series at #75 segueing into the Wedding specials and new Green Arrow and Black Canary series, we took aim at having a few words with writer Judd Winick. During the conventions of last weekend, Winick had his own domestic situation to attend to . . . the joy of moving. Now, with the phones in and a moment to breathe, he graciously gives us a few minutes to hit the bigger points of Ollie and Dinah’s walk down the aisle.

Newsarama: First question in terms of the marriage: After all this time, why now?

Judd Winick: I guess the answer is “Why not now?” or “What has gone on before that has held it up?” We felt that it was the right time story-wise. They’ve been B-List characters over the years, but have played much more prominent roles [as of late]. They’ve been fan favorites, and now those fans are creators. Who did Kevin Smith want to work on . . . and Brad [Meltzer]? There are a lot of us who don’t see him as B-List, but prominent and interesting.

And unlike other marriages or relationships, it’s a) gone on a long time, and b) it’s compelling to have two heroes get hitched. It’s different from the hero and civilian (like Clark and Lois, Peter and Mary Jane) . . . they’re gong to be a team.

[Dan] Didio, [Mike] Carlin, and I talked about it, and it went from “It would be a great idea if we did this” to “Finish at #75 and launch its own title.” When you get right down to it, the other big question is “Why cancel the book?” The simple answer is that Black Canary is not a sidekick. By getting them married and re-introing the book with #76 . . . it didn’t feel right. We wanted to put a flag in the sand for [the event and the relationship].

NRAMA: Yeah, but what about the cover to Green Arrow and Black Canary #1, which showcases not Ollie and Dinah but Dinah and Connor?

JW: That’s confusing, isn’t it? (laughs)

NRAMA: All right then . . . we wanted to ask about the climactic moment in #75, where Ollie is facing the character who has become his opposite number, Deathstroke (who has Dinah at his mercy), and confesses these feelings in front of him and Dinah.

JW: I wanted Ollie to be stripped bare [as a character]. Our heroes would sacrifice themselves for anyone . . . that’s what makes them heroes. So in a moment that he knows that there’s nothing that he can do about it, except beg this man, this villain, this monster to dig and find some honor and compassion. Ollie doesn’t fear death, he’s been dead before. But he’s afraid to lose Dinah and he’s afraid to live without her, especially when it’s so right for them. So better he try to strike a deal. It was, really, the last arrow he had in the quiver.

NRAMA: You had a chance to put your own stamp on the book when you came on board, and then you had a chance to do it again with One Year Later. How do you feel at the end about the political journey of the book?

JW: I’m proud of it. You can always tell any story five different ways. We can’t cover every based in 22-pages; we can’t tell every story. The decisions we made as far as Ollie as mayor . . .we could have gone further, made more of it, with more political intrigue. I can on about politics, and I can write a book about politics, but this is a book about superheroes and bad guys getting their butts kicked.

For me, it was more the act of him trying to wear both hats (hero and mayor), and the end goal was issue #75, restoring Star City. He was never going to do this much longer; he was always going to restore the city and leave [office] at the end of the story.

NRAMA: With the launch of the new title, are there any plans for Mia?

Winick: Mia will be part of it; Mia’s Speedy. Although we’ve created a new team, she’s very much a part of [the book]. I’m hoping that her character will continue to evolve over time.

NRAMA: The Wedding feeds a number of specials (with the Wedding Special, the Black Canary Wedding Planner) and ties into elements of Justice League with its own JLA Special. What’s your overall role?

JW: I’ve written the Wedding Special, and it’s done and in the can. We began with that, and that was everybody’s boiler-plate. Here’s the beginning middle and end, and the other stories revolve around it and through it. There are parties and events that take place within the story that I deal with in a page and a half that are touched on and then fed to other people. I lobbied to make [the Wedding Special] 60 pages, but that was shot down. (laughs)

NRAMA: How do you feel about these events tying into Justice League of America as Dwayne McDuffie comes aboard?

JW: I’m quite proud and pleased that the stories that we’re creating are coming out and being dealt with elsewhere. Everyone is jumping off our high board, and that’s fun.

NRAMA: Observers noted that the new solicitations indicate that #50 of The Outsiders is the final issue. What can you tell us about that?

JW: Batman is taking over the Outsiders. I think that it’s pretty obvious what will happen next…

NRAMA: Will you be writing…er, what happens next?

JW: Can’t say.

NRAMA: Fair enough. Any other projects coming up?

JW: There’s another major title that we’ll be announcing soon that we’ve begun work on.

NRAMA: How about your convention schedule?

JW: Just San Diego at this point.

NRAMA: Is that a definite for the summer?

JW: Well, if someone else invites me. (laughs)

[BlueThunderArmy]

Congrats on a fine Green Arrow run, looking forward to the relaunch. Was disappointed to see Outsiders ending, as it's been one of my favourite team books, but I'm keeping an open mind as to what happens with it under Batman's control.

[shrike]

After seeing Judd's treatment of Canary in Green Arrow 75 (I didn't buy it, I flipped through it at the store... I refuse to support his work) I am ashamed he continues to get high profile work at DC Comics.

A big Boo to this, especially after Gail Simone's treatment of the character.

The best way Judd handles super heroes is from a far, far, far distance. Or never.

[SpyGuy]

I really don't get the decision to put Connor on the cover of GA & BC #1 if this new series is about Ollie and Dinah as a married superhero couple. Is Ollie being relegated to supporting character status in the new title? If he isn't, then wouldn't this cover turn off people who expect to see him as a featured lead?

And although it may be wishful dreaming on my part, I really hope Winick isn't the writer for the BATMAN AND THE OUTSIDERS relaunch. The original series was one of my favorites during the eighties and I loathe the idea that Winick gets to continue with these characters.

[Nims]

Originally Posted by shrike

After seeing Judd's treatment of Canary in Green Arrow 75 (I didn't buy it, I flipped through it at the store... I refuse to support his work) I am ashamed he continues to get high profile work at DC Comics.

A big Boo to this, especially after Gail Simone's treatment of the character.

The best way Judd handles super heroes is from a far, far, far distance. Or never.

Y'know, I really don't understand why someone has to sign on and post just to slam a creator (or even a specific work/book), without any rationale or supporting evidence for their denigrating comments. If you don't like a book or a creator, you're entitled to your opinion...don't support it/them. But vapid "flame" messages on this or any other board accomplish nothing; they can't even be construed as constructive criticism...which is something most creators will accept and even respond to. Discourse is so much more enjoyable when it includes a little civility and at least some intellectual underpinning.

(Just my opinion...which I'm also entitled to...)

[shrike]

Originally Posted by Nims

Y'know, I really don't understand why someone has to sign on and post just to slam a creator (or even a specific work/book), without any rationale or supporting evidence for their denigrating comments. If you don't like a book or a creator, you're entitled to your opinion...don't support it/them. But vapid "flame" messages on this or any other board accomplish nothing; they can't even be construed as constructive criticism...which is something most creators will accept and even respond to. Discourse is so much more enjoyable when it includes a little civility and at least some intellectual underpinning.

(Just my opinion...which I'm also entitled to...)

Err... you are.... but I'm not just posting something without rationale.

Judd does not 'get' Canary and horribly miswrites her. I stated that as much in my post re: GA 75.

What part of my post are you not getting?

[Binker]

I can't wait for Batman & the Outsiders. I wanted to read about Batman's team, and maybe see a Batman/Outsiders DTV or movie (later on). So I'm glad to see a new, current one.

[Troy Brownfield]

Originally Posted by shrike

Err... you are.... but I'm not just posting something without rationake.

Judd does not 'get' Canary and horribly miswrites her. I stated that as much in my post re: GA 75.

What part of my post are you not getting?

The part that no one's getting is where you actually explain why you think that Canary was mishandled in the title. It's not enough that you SAY she's mishandled; can you give three reasons why, with support (just like I ask my comp students to do)?

I have to say that I do like the new phrase "rationake". Is that where one explains oneself to a popular tune?

[whitemarkd]

Here's my two cents - I loved the way Judd wrote Ollie, and I had no problem with his treatment of Dinah. She's always loved this man, and she hasn't lowered herself to accept him - as he said, he wanted to make himself worthy of her, to become the man that she deserves. I'm completely on board for GA/BC.

I am also sorry that Judd is leaving Outsiders, and will not be writing the follow-up. I still maintain that, both in Outsiders and during his Batman run, he wrote Nightwing as well as anyone since Chuck Dixon (or Geoff Johns in Infinite Crisis), and if Marv ever leaves Nightwing, I hope Judd gets the job.

[Tom Brazelto]

Originally Posted by shrike

Err... you are.... but I'm not just posting something without rationale.

Judd does not 'get' Canary and horribly miswrites her. I stated that as much in my post re: GA 75.

What part of my post are you not getting?

In what ways does Winick not "get" Canary?

How would you prefer she be written? What did Judd get wrong?

I'm curious now.

[Grievous]

Stop dissing Judd,

I love his green arrow,

best of luck to me and all his projects, i will definately be buying them.


P.s Deathstroke should have chopped Black canery to kingdom come,

oh boy, i love that villain

[Bat-Mite]

Originally Posted by Tom Brazelto

In what ways does Winick not "get" Canary?

How would you prefer she be written? What did Judd get wrong?

I'm curious now.

Reading 2 or 3 issues of Gail Simone's BOP run might help satisfy your curiosity.
Even Meltzer's portrayal of BC in JLA is good for starters given the fact that it's a team book.

Winick's portrayal was a shallow joke.

(And, sorry, but NO I will not go into further details for the sake of appearances and satisfying the curiosity of others.
Voicing one's opinions in a free forum implies a measure of respect towards OPs and their opinions, but should not, IMO, entail that one has to conform to everyone's peeves, expectations and subjective definition of "sufficiently developped" or "well articulated"

[MattBrady]

Originally Posted by Bat-Mite

(And, sorry, but NO I will not go into further details for the sake of appearances and satisfying the curiosity of others.
Voicing one's opinions in a free forum implies a measure of respect towards OPs and their opinions, but should not, IMO, entail that one has to conform to everyone's peeves, expectations and subjective definition of "sufficiently developped" or "well articulated"

true, but when the criticism is, in toto, "read it for yourself" and "...portrayal was a shallow joke" then that opinion may then be seen by others as falling under the same realm as said writing that is being criticized.

Not everyone is spoiling for a fight - there are many on these boards who are looking for understanding of other people's opinions, and when they're given with the virtual "It sux, and you wanna know why? Suck it." (all right, that was exaggerated) it stops discussion in favor of argument.

That's what both Nims and Troy said up top.

MattB

[WildcardZ]

Congrats on a fine run Judd. I'm looking forward to the new series.

[TedKordLives]

GA had some peaks and toughs, for sure, especially towards the end there, but I'm really really psyched for BC/GA. I really want to see these folks fight some crime! Kick some drug dealer faces in! I hope they get a new artist though, I did not enjoy Scott McDaniels work. I felt it was very unpolished, and a little messy, almost like he stopped at layouts, and never did the finishes... In any case, it was a good run, and I hope the new title picks up the steam the last kind of lost towards the end.

On a side note, who's on that Batman team? Looks like Thunder, Metamorpho, Grace, Katana, Aquaman, Boomerang, and one more. There are two hands on the right side of the picture that look like Metamorpho's hands, but presumably only of those is actually his, and the other belongs to someone else. It couldn't be Shift and Metamorpho, could it? I hope not, it seems redundant...

[coolmvm]

May I put in my two cents:

I think most people who are fans of Black Canary from the either BOP or The JLA, may fear that Judd may take away all of the development that the writers place into that character and reduce her into a Damsel in Distress who is often seen a bit weak and may lose in some fist fights.


Now I'm one of those fans of BC who seen her within JLA or BOP, and if Judd had done his homework and reread all of those BC stories then maybe there's hope for the character within the new series.

[murgod]

If Judd's writing is running true to form, Black Canary will end up married to Wonder Woman...

D.

[bc1970]

It's nice to have reasons not to like something, but you really don't need them. People seem polarized these days by many things. Message boards are a way to vent.

I'm not a JW fan myself. (Winick or Whedon) I don't like my super heroes glib, smarmy and sanctimonious. (I had to look up that last one.) BUT, Green Arrow is all of those things. To me he's that crazy hippie with one arm in Dark Knight Returns. Winick is the perfect person for that book. Let him have it if it keeps him away from other characters.

by the way: Maybe Captain Marvel is another Outsider. It looks like his arm band. And the black gloves/jacket is Jason Todd or Mr. Terrific.

[TedKordLives]

Originally Posted by bc1970

by the way: Maybe Captain Marvel is another Outsider. It looks like his arm band. And the black gloves/jacket is Jason Todd or Mr. Terrific.

I'm pretty sure that armband is Aquaman's, but Captain Marvel would be pretty darn sweet. Also, the black glove/jacket is probably Boomerang. The green/red gauntlet is Grace, the yellow/blue glove is Thunder, the yellow/red glove is Katana, and either the pinkish orange hand or the purply hand is Metamorpho, and the other is someone else (but who???) Almost the classic BATO line-up. Awesome.

[Speedball93]

Why does DC feel the need to keep cancelling books and relaunching them with a new #1?? Outsiders and GA have both had long respectable runs and now both are on the road to starting over. Even with a new direction I can't support this idea. In the end there is only one reason for doing this and it is all about $$$. Sales are always better with a new number 1, I understand that, but I don't agree with it.

[DaeRave]

Originally Posted by Nims

Y'know, I really don't understand why someone has to sign on and post just to slam a creator (or even a specific work/book), without any rationale or supporting evidence for their denigrating comments. If you don't like a book or a creator, you're entitled to your opinion...don't support it/them. But vapid "flame" messages on this or any other board accomplish nothing; they can't even be construed as constructive criticism...which is something most creators will accept and even respond to. Discourse is so much more enjoyable when it includes a little civility and at least some intellectual underpinning.

(Just my opinion...which I'm also entitled to...)

lol

welcome to the internet
flaming, whining, bitching and moaning is what we're SUPPOSED to do here.
that and porn.

[Bat-Mite]

Originally Posted by MattBrady

true, but when the criticism is, in toto, "read it for yourself" and "...portrayal was a shallow joke" then that opinion may then be seen by others as falling under the same realm as said writing that is being criticized.

Not everyone is spoiling for a fight - there are many on these boards who are looking for understanding of other people's opinions, and when they're given with the virtual "It sux, and you wanna know why? Suck it." (all right, that was exaggerated) it stops discussion in favor of argument.

That's what both Nims and Troy said up top.

MattB

Yeah. I should have know better than to post that I guess.

My experience of late, unfortunately, has been than regardless of how long or relatively well-articulated your posts are, the minute they contain an amount of criticism or "negativity", there WILL be certain people ictching for a fight who'll have a go at you anyways.

Plus, I and OPs sometimes just like to pitch our 2 cents on a given topic, without necessarily having the time (or desire) to expand on them comprehensively. Especially when we might have done that on another thread or forum not that long ago.

(in my case last night here http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/t...0085&tstart=15)

Anyways, I'm trully sorry if I offended anyone, but it does irritate me to see replies than in essence come down to "it's not ok to just say it sux" when, on the other hand it's prefectly ok to sign-on to post "this rocks!" and never be heard from again.
But that's just me I guess.

But, since I'm not here simply cruising for a fight, here goes:

I do sincerely think that Winick's protrayal of Dinah, AND her feelings towards Ollie was, at best, caricatural.
IMHO of course.

Under Gail Simone's writing, Dinah has evloved tremendously since her ordeal of the Longbow Hunters days.
That experience has marked her. Changed her. She has since been depicted in MANY desperate situations before and always kept a certain level of combativity and pride to her.

" "Never Again" helpless or at anyone else's mercy " being her unofficial motto...

...And that was BEFORE a whole year in the "Lady Shiva Boot Camp."

Yet what does Winick do?

Pictures her sucking on a sword and crying while the man she loves humiliates himslef in front of her....

I understand this was "meant" to be a touching, deeply emotional scene where Ollie would bear his feeling for her and it would truly move her etc. thus leading to the official proposal

... but it didn't work for me. At all.

Or many other fans of both GA and BC it seems.

Nor did the "Hi Dinah!" "Hi Ollie!" "Let's do the nasty for 3 days" bit that came out of nowhere, and was IMHO a pretty quick "leap" given the very complex, and conflictual, feelings Dinah had for Ollie in the last 50 or so issues of BOP...

Over in JLA, Meltzer had Canary portrayed as a strong, smart, FIERCE warrior who would charge a pack of Amazos with nothing but her cry, an arrows.
With Red Arrow saying stuff like "She's the scarier than Ollie."

But the minute the "almighty" Deathstroke shows-up with is "I'm always five steps ahead" wanna-be-Batman routine... it's sword sucking and weeping time....

... Til the cavalry arrives...

(which makes you wonder how she managed to survive all these years before she hooked up with the JLA again...)

So, yes...

To me, Winick's portrayal does indeed come off as a shallow joke.

Sorry.

But, it's what I, and some other BC fans think of it.

Hence our being less than rejoiced at the news that Winick will be writing the new BC/GA book.

And if anyone wants to know more than that, they should peruse the Green Arrow forums over at the DCMB, or threads on other forums (such as this one) on GA #75.

And anyone who trully wants to see great BC characterizations REALLY SHOULD pick up someof Gail Simone's BOP issues and TPBs. Because my words or summaries would only spoil them and in no way do them justice.

So there you have it.

I do appologize to anyone who was really "offended" by my initial post, but like I said, sometimes, some of us just feel like giving our 2 cents without having to spend 5 or more minutes re-typing what we, or others, have already said on a number of occasions.

Peace!

(BTW, Matt, Thank you for running such a great site, and trully open forum sir!)

[DaVeO]

Looking forward to the new series and wedding stuff. I also will be picky on the portrayal of Black Canary (having followed her in BoP since it's inception). I never read her appearances in GA, so I will give Judd the benefit of the doubt. He has three issues to convince me. I think that's fair.

[TedKordLives]

Originally Posted by Speedball93

Why does DC feel the need to keep cancelling books and relaunching them with a new #1?? Outsiders and GA have both had long respectable runs and now both are on the road to starting over. Even with a new direction I can't support this idea. In the end there is only one reason for doing this and it is all about $$$. Sales are always better with a new number 1, I understand that, but I don't agree with it.

It seems that in recent times, it's been a method of getting new readers on board when a major change happens in the status quo. Kind of like saying, "Hey! If you buy this book, you can read it from here on without having to pick up back issues!" It's definitely gimmicky, but if it gets new readers into comics, and the stories are still decent, then who cares? I'll buy a book with a good story regardless of the number on the cover, and it doesn't really bother me when a new number 1 signifies the end of an old era, and the beginning of a new one. Granted, if every time a new member came on board, or someone changed costumes they relaunched the title, it would quickly lose any impact, much like it would if the series restarted after every arc. But it's still a rarity these days to see continuous titles with so many "first issues" that they're more like over arching miniseries. Personally, as far as Outsiders goes, this is a HUGE change. It doesn't even look like Nightwing is in the book. Going back to the classic "Batman and the Outsiders" doesn't irk me in this case. Green Arrow/Black Canary probably could've just been a retitling, but that wouldn't bring as many new readers on board. Is the concept of the next part of the Green Arrow story having the number "76" on the cover as opposed to "1" really that big a deal? It's a perfect time to jump on (or off, if you've just been waiting for a reason).

[Barry Strange]

Why not just call the new book "The Archers"?