THE Q: DOES DEATH MATTER?

[MattBrady]

by Vaneta Rogers

It's time again for The Q, a series of articles where we ask one question to a handful of creators. Concentrating on writers in particular, this month's question explores the issue of how effective a character's death can really be in the world of comic books.

The Q this time – a timely one: Does the emotional impact of a character's death still have value in the comic book writer's toolbox? Or have the industry traditions of culling and resurrection changed the way this part of a hero's story is utilized by writers and/or perceived by readers?

Mike Carey (X-Men, Crossing Midnight, God Save the Queen): I think it depends on context, like any other story element. If it's obvious that the death is just a blip and the character is going to come back, then I'd say it has no impact at all. But if it's made to seem real and irrevocable, it can still have power -- even if it's reversed later. As an example of a death being well used within a story context, I'd offer the way Peter David has Siryn react to Banshee's death. Her refusal to believe in it -- her conviction that he'll come back, like Jean Grey and Colossus and all the other supposedly dead X-Men -- is actually very poignant and painful to watch. It turns a cliché into something very human and believable and moving.

But yeah, I'd be the first to admit that a "revolving door" attitude to characters' deaths has bedeviled the industry for the past two decades -- and the law of diminishing returns has kicked in with a vengeance. What's depressing is when the resurrection isn't even done with any kind of style or conviction and doesn't carry any weight. Donne said "every man's death diminishes me." He could have added "especially if there's some lame-ass deus ex machina twist and he comes back again a year later."

Adam Beechen (Robin, Countdown, Teen Titans): It absolutely has value -- if handled properly. Fans can spot a gratuitous "stunt death" a mile away. And because there've been so many character deaths in the last twenty years, fans are a little wary of them. So a character death has to have emotional resonance to the story the writer's trying to tell in more than just the short-term. It can't just be forgotten the next month. It also depends on how well the character has been portrayed over his or her appearances. Death means much more to a reader if he or she is emotionally invested in the character. Take the death of Superboy and how it relates to the Teen Titans. Geoff Johns and the artists he worked with did a tremendous job of building a character readers could care about. Now that that character is gone, he's still being felt in the book months after it happened...and that'll continue to be the case, because Superboy was an integral part of those characters' lives, and with the way they're structured, he'll continue to be, in memory.

Chris Gage (Union Jack, Annihilation: Conquest -- Quasar, StormWatch PHD): A good story is a good story. If death is used as a cheap stunt, or a way of grabbing attention, or because the creative team has simply run out of ideas, the readers sense it and generally reject it. But if it's done well, it can definitely still have value, even if the "dead" character returns one or five or forty years down the line. If it's done well, it works; if it's not, it doesn't. Simple as that.

Jimmy Palmiotti (Heroes for Hire, Jonah Hex, Countdown, Friday the 13th): Evidently a character’s death does have an impact if the character is a mainstream figure that has been around for years and people are familiar with him outside the world of comics. If it is not, then usually its just a storytelling device, I would hope. For me, I try not to kill any character unless it is going to make an impact on the world and others around them. That said, I have nuked cities and blown up planets, but those people were irritating and I was doing the universe a favor. In comics, every character should have the nickname “Lazarus” because they all come back. Each and every one of them…sales dictate these resurrections. Personally, I like it better when characters come out of the closet, get pregnant or have cancer and beat it. It's more inspiring to me.

Tony Bedard (Exiles, Countdown, JSA: Classified): Death is such a fundamental aspect of life that it will always have dramatic value. If a death has no impact, it's because it was poorly told, not because other characters have died in other stories. Now, the way other character deaths have been portrayed in previous stories might have some influence on how you tell your story, if only so you don't copy something that's already been done, but a million lame stories won't stop a writer from trying to tell a good one. A million crass, marketing-driven character deaths won't stop you from believing you can kill off your own character in a poignant, impactful manner.

David Hine (Silent War, Spawn, Son of M): Case in point: The Death of Captain America. Although Ed Brubaker made a sterling attempt at writing a moving story about the death of Marvel's best-loved character, I found myself contemplating, like everyone else, whether he was really dead and if so how many months would pass before he was resurrected. I even found thoughts of Life Model Decoys and clones drifting around in my head. Now it may be that Steve Rogers will remain dead. But the impact of his death is already irreparably diminished by that tradition of resurrection.

I recently wrote a What If...? story where I got to kill off Jean Grey for the umpteenth time. In my version of Deadly Genesis, Vulcan is responsible for her death and his punishment is to relive the death of Jean Grey and her fellow X-Men over and over. Vulcan's final monologue sums up my feelings about the cycle of death and re-birth in superhero comics: "But they overlooked something. It gets easier. Every time it hurts a little less...I've watched them die two hundred and seventy-three times. How many times do you have to see someone die before you feel nothing at all?"

Sean McKeever (Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, Spider-Man Family, Countdown): Absolutely, death still has weight, but it's all in the approach. As long as I'm getting into the characters' hearts and minds and telling honest stories from there, and as long as that story is compelling in some way, then thoughts of potential/inevitable resurrection shouldn't matter.

Speaking to the most recent big death in comics, I can't wait to see what the writer of that series does next because he's a master of character-driven storytelling.

Justin Gray (Heroes for Hire, Jonah Hex, Countdown, Friday the 13th): The emotional impact of the comic book death, particularly that of a high profile superhero, serves as a short-term plot device, and given the large number of resurrected characters throughout both DC and Marvel’s publication histories I don’t believe the fans truly expect anyone to stay dead indefinitely. Death essentially means placing a character on the shelf for a period of time until either a specific trend reappears that favors that character or until their “resurrection” serves as a new plot device. The general rule is that a good story justifies any alteration of a serialized character’s rebirth or death. At the core of these events are two things, a genuine love of the characters and the financial rewards derived from life and death in the superhero world.

[whitemarkd]

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).

[Kevin T. Brown]

All excellent answers, but I think death in comics are met more with a roll of the eyes than shock nowadays. Everyone is waiting for the next announcement in how they're going to return the recently deceased character.

[SeamusMcClernan]

...but several years ago I asked Dave Cockrum whether or not he was upset at Colossus being killed-off, and his reply was; "No. In the Marvel Universe, death is only for Ben Parker and Bucky Barnes."

[vbartilucci]

Originally Posted by whitemarkd

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).

That may be because there's a pretty slim chance they'll actually get to COME back, thus making the death truly sad.

[SSK17]

Originally Posted by vbartilucci

That may be because there's a pretty slim chance they'll actually get to COME back, thus making the death truly sad.

Exactly, I thought it was a pretty cool dynamic that got snuffed out...and there is the overwhelming feeling that they won't be coming back...unless Adam frees faust and Neron from Fates tower and uses them to bring Isis and Osiris back.

[whitemarkd]

Originally Posted by vbartilucci

That may be because there's a pretty slim chance they'll actually get to COME back, thus making the death truly sad.

Unless Black Adam finds Ralph Dibny and asks him for resurrection tips...

EDIT: Oops, looks like SSK17 beat me to it!

[BlueThunderArmy]

I largely agree with Mr Carey's statements. I would add that it's possibly the nature of ongoing serialised stories, such as comics and soap operas, that any change in the status quo is reversable, particularly in that the reversal can be seen as another shift in status quo. It's frustrating to me in the sense that, any time a major story (death/disfigurement/going crazy) is overturned, it makes me wonder why I bother. If Hal Jordan's actions during 'Emerald Twilight' can be explained away with a giant yellow dinosaur, and even a character like Colossus can return from the valley of death, then what's the point of reading stories at all, or telling them? That doesn't mean that the 'initial event' or the 'returning event' were poorly done (with allowance for individual opinion) but the cumulative effect is a sourness that's hard to scrub away.

I've come rather close to quitting comics a few times over this, not in a spectacular and public I'M DROPPING ALL MY MARVEL/DC BOOKS AND NEVER COMING BACK kind of way, but just a quiet 'I'm out' fashion. In the end, though, I decided I enjoy comics enough to put up with the occasional disappointment and ridiculous back-and-forth of characterisation. Really, I can't imagine cutting out comics from my life, certainly not the Vertigo and indie series I love, and not the excitement of monthly superheroes, either. I'm posting on Newsarama, after all, I'm pretty sure I'm in the game for good.

[jccalhoun]

Once again the Legion for the win.
Throughout the history of the Legion of Superheroes death has always been meaningful and permanent with the exception of Lightening Lad (and even in that case from the start they always said "I don't believe he's dead.).

[The Flash XS5]

Originally Posted by SeamusMcClernan

...but several years ago I asked Dave Cockrum whether or not he was upset at Colossus being killed-off, and his reply was; "No. In the Marvel Universe, death is only for Ben Parker and Bucky Barnes."

He was half right. Or if you're a reader of Friendly Neighborhood Spider-man, he's 1/3 right.

[whitemarkd]

Originally Posted by jccalhoun

Once again the Legion for the win.
Throughout the history of the Legion of Superheroes death has always been meaningful and permanent with the exception of Lightening Lad (and even in that case from the start they always said "I don't believe he's dead.).

Except for reboots - I've never gotten used to having the original Invisible Kid back...

(The current one is the same as the Silver Age one, right? Lyle Norg? That's just off the top of my head - no time to check Wikipedia right now, sorry.)

[Avantre]

Gold responses from Carey ('He could have added "especially if there's some lame-ass deus ex machina twist and he comes back again a year later."') and Palmiotti ('That said, I have nuked cities and blown up planets, but those people were irritating and I was doing the universe a favor.')

It's not surprising that Beechan would be positive on the impact of deaths, what with a death advertised for the Titans comic in a couple of months. He'd have been in a bit of a pickle if he'd said they had no meaning.

Comic deaths have no meaning for me anymore - even the ones I'd thought to be permanent have been retconed or sidestepped (Bucky and Captain Mar-vell). I'm more likely to care if someone writes a character I like badly or out-of-character, then I would if they killed them off.

[supergp]

This is one of the reasons I prefer the Ultimate Marvel U to the 616; in the Ultimate rendition, death feels like it has weight still. This is partially because they don't bring people back (as a rule), but also partially because they've gone to great lengths to show how it affects characters. When Ultimate Beast dies, Ultimate Storm flips out more than a little.

[AirDave817]

Mike Carey (X-Men, Crossing Midnight, God Save the Queen):
Donne said "every man's death diminishes me." He could have added "especially if there's some lame-ass deus ex machina twist and he comes back again a year later."

Tony Bedard (Exiles, Countdown, JSA: Classified): Death is such a fundamental aspect of life that it will always have dramatic value. If a death has no impact, it's because it was poorly told, not because other characters have died in other stories. Now, the way other character deaths have been portrayed in previous stories might have some influence on how you tell your story, if only so you don't copy something that's already been done, but a million lame stories won't stop a writer from trying to tell a good one. A million crass, marketing-driven character deaths won't stop you from believing you can kill off your own character in a poignant, impactful manner.

David Hine (Silent War, Spawn, Son of M): Case in point: The Death of Captain America. Although Ed Brubaker made a sterling attempt at writing a moving story about the death of Marvel's best-loved character, I found myself contemplating, like everyone else, whether he was really dead and if so how many months would pass before he was resurrected. I

I recently wrote a What If...? story where I got to kill off Jean Grey for the umpteenth time. In my version of Deadly Genesis, Vulcan is responsible for her death and his punishment is to relive the death of Jean Grey and her fellow X-Men over and over. Vulcan's final monologue sums up my feelings about the cycle of death and re-birth in superhero comics: "But they overlooked something. It gets easier. Every time it hurts a little less...I've watched them die two hundred and seventy-three times. How many times do you have to see someone die before you feel nothing at all?"

... ...

As they would say on Lost, "Amen, brother."

[jonnynyc]

Adam Beechen sounds like he is kissing up to Geoff Johns a little.
He is already co-writing the book, he can relax a bit, no?
Superboy died for the worst reasons:
Lawsuits and to fill the "New Flash" & "Dead Super-Kid" quota of a CRISIS
I don't feel like they deserve praised heaped on them for that

[Cheech-Daddy]

Originally Posted by supergp

This is one of the reasons I prefer the Ultimate Marvel U to the 616; in the Ultimate rendition, death feels like it has weight still. This is partially because they don't bring people back (as a rule), but also partially because they've gone to great lengths to show how it affects characters. When Ultimate Beast dies, Ultimate Storm flips out more than a little.

I LOVE the Ultimate books. I think a lot of what you're talking about comes from a lack of expectations in a young universe. the characters a rea alittle different and the stories are sometimes of a differnt style, so you don't think, "Oh, Beast will be back in a year." I haven't read it yet, because all my Ultimate books are trades, but I want to see how Xavier dies and see about that one. I don't know how he'll stay dead. I haven't been terribly impressed by Kirman's UXM so far, but we'll so how it turns out.

Edit: I do hope that Captain America stays dead for a good long while. Mar-Vel was dead for over ten years. If they do something cool with the character, then I'll be cool with them bringing him back for this new generation of readers, just like I won't be terribly pissed off if they resurrect Steve Rogers for my son to read about in 10-15 years.

I will, however, be mighty upset if he comes back immediately, although it doesn't look like that's going to happen, to me at least.

[Hand213]

I think there are two key things to keep in mind in a discussion like this:

1) How something is done is often more important than what is done. Most of the authors above are pointing to this idea. Fans (and I include myself here) tend to react to the "what" well before (and sometimes without considering) the "how." When news of Cap's death broke, a lot of people on these boards were in an uproar; a significant number of them changed their opinion after reading the actual story. This is not to say that how a death is done totally eclipses the repercussions of the death itself, but if we're evaluating the technique, the means has to carry more weight than the end. This is storytelling, not fact-collecting; losing sight of the artistry by focusing only on the result hurts the whole industry. Anyone can come up with ideas (well, not ANYone, but you know what I mean); we value these people, the writers, because they can make amorphous, abstract, general ideas into detailed, specific, evocative stories.

2) Closely related to #1, I think we have to simply accept the fact that death is another tool in the comic book writer's arsenal. As such, it has different associations/expectations than death in the real world. Like in most things (as Civil War really brought to the forefront), there's a very strangely defined line between the reality of our comics and the reality of our lives. We want them to mirror each other in some ways; we want them to contradict each other in other ways. (Really, this is no different than any type of fiction, right? We want stories that open up something with which we're not familiar, something strange and new, but we want it to be "realistic" and "relatable" (whatever that means).) So, I think death in comics has just become another one of those aspects. If we don't think of it as having some intrinsic "shock value," maybe we won't get so upset when it is seemingly used to that effect.

Ok - I've rambled too much.

[haldo]

Thanks much to the comics creators who answered the questions, but everyone reading and posting here knows the real answer: death is a joke in comics, even in the supposedly "more realistic" Marvel U.

It's just a plot device, a sales gimmick, a way to get people talking. "Telling a good story" rarely comes into it, IMO. Maybe in Starlin's case, OK.

But Cap will be back - just like Phoenix, Bucky, Uncle Ben, Isis, Osiris, Ralph & Sue Dibny, Mar-Vell et al ad nauseum.

--------------------------------------

I don't know why we waste our time (I include myself here) debating this idiocy. I'm going to work now in the real world where my bandmate is dying of ALS. Best wishes to all. Celebrate life while you own it. And enjoy the comics you like whether your favorite character is currently still up & punching out bad guys or not.

[garou12]

Originally Posted by whitemarkd

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).

Isis'death is going to resonate alot more because people can identify with the idea of a lost love...especially how that love brought alot of inner peace and calm into the relationship...I truly feel bad for Black Adam right now because of the pain he's going thru of being alone again and being robbed of his chance at peace and happiness...Him and Ralph have alot in common and should talk...IF they do bring Isis back i hope they do it in a meaningful way so it doesn't cheapen the impact of her death...

[KoozyK]

It gets easier. Every time it hurts a little less...I've watched them die two hundred and seventy-three times. How many times do you have to see someone die before you feel nothing at all?

that sums up my opinion of death. the only effect of steve's death has on me is that i won't see him in the book anymore, but rather, his supporting cast.

we'll see how this plays out.

[garou12]

One more thing...with all the death that four horsemen caused in Kahndaqe I'm surprised the Spectre himself didn't appear to render judgement on them

[weaselwelch]

Originally Posted by Cheech-Daddy

Edit: I do hope that Captain America stays dead for a good long while. Mar-Vel was dead for over ten years. If they do something cool with the character, then I'll be cool with them bringing him back for this new generation of readers, just like I won't be terribly pissed off if they resurrect Steve Rogers for my son to read about in 10-15 years.

I will, however, be mighty upset if he comes back immediately, although it doesn't look like that's going to happen, to me at least.

I believe in several interviews(or maybe it was a Joe Friday) that it was said the Steve Rogers isn't dead. I think they just plan on some else being Cap for awhile.

On a side note. It was funny my LCS sold out of Captain America #25 in 2 hours(i've heard that some retailers were selling the issue for like $10). And the phone was ringing off the hook for people asking if they had a copy. Now the owner said the Marvel over printed #25 but didn't say anything to retailers until after it was released. and Diamond would be able to refill something like 95% of orders.

I just wonder how many non comic book readers bought that issue thinking, like with the death of Superman issue that they have a major collectable. SOme even thinking that down the road the can resell it for big bucks. But like the death of Superman issue they will disappointed.

[DaVeO]

The list of gresat characters that have died and not been resurected is growing short. We can now scratch Captain Mar-vell off the list. Thor will be returning soon. I really hope that Steve Rogers stays deceased, but I know he won't. Marvel just cannot keep iconic (or X-Men) characters dead. DC is guilty too, what with Green Arrow and Green Lanterns (Hal Jordan, Kilowog, Arisa)
However, with Ollie and Hal they were well told come backs. Mar-vell? Not even close. Marvel dropped the ball on that one big time. Why not have him come back during Annihilation Conquest?

Anyhow, I just re-read Warren Ellis's run on Authority. An excellent portrayal of a death that has not been revived was Jenny Sparks. Out of all the characters I believe she was the one readers thought least likely expendable. But when her time came it was handed in a very classy way.

This is why I think legacies are an excellent device. Unfortunatly, they are not always so lovingly embraced. The Atom and Firestorm have both been controversial. However, Tim Drake as been hugely popular as have all the members of the Justice Society.
It's a little confusing to try and figure out what makes a hero popular. The person or the mask or both?

[1603]

I think death in comics can still have shock, and does. It is still important at the time it happens because it momentarily changes the status quo of the books. It still brings out real emotions in readers and brings emotion to characters.

And obviously, none of it is final, nor can it really be final when dealing with any type of main (or semi-main) character. There will always be more story possibilities with a character and fans will want to see them again. And their rise from the dead can always be interesting.

[Cheech-Daddy]

Originally Posted by weaselwelch

I believe in several interviews(or maybe it was a Joe Friday) that it was said the Steve Rogers isn't dead. I think they just plan on some else being Cap for awhile.

Hmm... Everything I've read, and I have read a LOT has everyone (Joe Q included) assuring everyone that he is, in fact, dead. SO much that the next issue of Cap features his autopsy. Looks like Carol is just a lying conniving bitchface, after all.