TALKING CAPTAIN AMERICA #25 WITH ED BRUBAKER - SPOILERS

[MattBrady]

If you had something to do off planet yesterday, you may not have heard about Captain America #25. For the rest of us that were on earth, it was a pretty big deal – something that brought back memories of the Death of Superman, Spider-Man unmaksing and a very small handful of other events where comics crossed into the mainstream consciousness in a huge way.

Oh – and of course - SPOILER WARNING FOR CAPTAIN AMERICA #25.

We spoke with the man at the center of the story, Captain America writer Ed Brubaker to get an inside look on what will be one of the landmarks of comics for 2007.

Newsarama: First off, and going with the biggest scope - how did this story come to be in your lap and your series? There had been talk all along (albeit unconfirmed) that someone was going to die in Civil War #7, and for many, Cap seemed to fit that bill. So was what happened in Captain America #25 a sudden addition, something you'd been planning all along, or an element you had to shoehorn in?

Ed Brubaker: Not really. I was at the big summit meeting for the last act of Civil War, and I don't think there were any serious suggestions that Cap should die in issue #7. My memory is it was something I floated as what I could do in Cap after Civil War's finale that would really stun people, and that would build off the buzz generated by Civil War. And then it was discussed for a while, about how it would happen, and who would kill him, and then the talk drifted back to the end of Civil War instead. That's how I recall it. But I read an interview with Joe yesterday, and he remembers a lot more debate about it, and he's probably right. It was a long time ago now and we were all exhausted, so my memory on some stuff is a bit fuzzy. For all I know, the initial idea was from JMS or Millar or Bendis and I just mulled it over until it became mine. But I know the facts of the story weren't discussed in much depth until the next summit, last summer, where we were planning the 2007 stuff, and at that point, Joe and Dan and David Gabriel all started getting more excited about it. And the input of all the people in that room impacted the story that I'm telling, and needs to be acknowledged. You don't do a story this big without getting a lot of people's okays and input.

But the way this idea evolved into what it is now came from looking at my options on Cap as Civil War was ending, and seeing what they were. The two obvious options -- a) Cap resigns, gets on his motorcycle and goes to find America, and b) Cap is in jail and on trial -- were things I felt had been done, either in Cap, or in other comics -- notably, I'd just finished a run on Daredevil where Matt was in prison. So, since I didn't want to do either of those stories, I looked at my outline for the next few years that I'd been plotting out, and decided to push up my big "Red Skull Strikes Back" storyline a bit, and tweak it to coincide with Civil War and its fallout and ramifications.

Then I talked it over with Tom Brevoort, and with Bendis, since he's the other guy writing Cap in New Avengers, who'd be affected, and then I started laying the groundwork for this entire "Death of the Dream" storyline, seeding the Red Skull's behind the scenes stuff in the Civil War tie-in issues of Cap. And from that point, there was a lot of back and forth about how this would work or not work and how we would do it, between me and Tom. And more recently, a lot of emailing back and forth with Jeph Loeb, who had a lot of really good points about how big this actually was and how to make it even bigger.

NRAMA: So once it was all decided that Captain America would die in issue #25 did it require any drastic changes of your plans as you had been constructing them for the series?

EB: Not really. This storyline, in one form or another, has been building since issue #1 of Cap. The way it begins, with Cap's death in issue #25, is probably more huge than it might have been otherwise, and more of an event. I tend not to think huge or event, generally, but this warrants it. But even with all that, to me, this is just a continuation of the story I've been telling in Cap all along, and this is the next step. If Civil War had not come along, it may have taken a while longer to get here, and Cap may or may not have been killed, but this is all fitting into my plans and leading to some great things in Cap. I'm really excited about this book, just as much as I was when I first began it. I have said from the beginning that Civil War was a gift to me, and to Cap, because of what I'd be able to do after it, and it's really true. This story became better I think, than it would have been otherwise.

NRAMA: Structure-wise, the story we're seeing here...even relatively recently, you could point out examples of similar tales being done in two, three or five issues. Not to editorialize, but you packed a lot into this issue. Why was it important for you (and obviously there were timing and scheduling reasons related to other series and projects) that this story had to be told in one issue?

EB: Partly, because it's issue #25, so it's like a milestone. But also, this issue is just the tip of the iceberg of this storyline, and so I didn't want to draw it out. I wanted it to be a short sharp shock, that hopefully left the readers emotionally invested to see what happens next. I felt this was a great way to begin this story arc, to remind people what Cap has meant to all these characters, and then to rip him away from them. I'm hoping the readers feel the same way Bucky and Sharon and the Falcon do.

NRAMA: In that vein - the act itself actually happens about mid-way through the issue when, typically, these things tend to happen at the ends. Why'd you go that way?

EB: Because this is meant to be a different kind of story, at least to me writing it. I felt like the only real Steve Rogers moments should be his simple act of heroism and the way those around him reflect on what he means to them. And this arc, for a lot of it, is about the supporting cast, and what happens to them when Steve is killed - what they all go through, and the paths they choose.

NRAMA: Staying in the “big picture” mode, what did you have to do in this issue? It almost seemed that some elements of the issue were directed at cliché-busting - catching the first shooter, giving the heroes a grip on the larger mystery, revealing Sharon's dilemma, showing the body for example - were those all…signposts, for lack of a better word that you felt had to appear in the issue?

EB: I don't know, honestly. I wrote it so long ago now, since it was originally going to come out in November or December, that I can't remember if I was that concerned about those elements. I know revealing the truth to Sharon was going to be the final beat of the issue, because I wanted that tragedy hammered into her brain. Mostly, I did it by instinct, as I always do. I was trying to make it as new reader-friendly as possible, though, since I knew it'd get more readers than usual, and I wanted to be sure they all knew who Cap was, and how he was connected to the rest of the cast and the world. But since it was an anniversary issue, you kind of try to do all that anyway, generally.

NRAMA: Let’s move to some of the details of the story. First off, what specifically is Cap being arraigned for?

EB: Whatever he was arrested for at the end of Civil War. You'll have to ask Tom Brevoort. I would guess it was being in violation of the SHRA and leading the rebel forces, though.

NRAMA: And the talking head’s comment of Captain America not going before a tribunal. Can you explain that a little more? As a military officer, the military legal system would have been the normal venue, right?

EB: Yeah, but Cap's military connections are murky -- he's not a Captain in the Army, for instance - and he's also a S.H.I.E.L.D. operative, which means he also works of the UN. I felt that because of the public attention to the entire Civil War that the government would want to make Cap's prosecution as open to the public and the common man as possible. So, since he's a figurehead and an icon, as well as all the other things he is, a trial in Federal Court seemed like a decent alternative.

NRAMA: Why these three narrators, Bucky, Sharon and Sam? Was their presence in the narrative both intended to give insights on various phases of Cap's life and times as well as...what, cement them in as the key players in the book for the months to come?

EB: Yeah, exactly. Just as I said before. It helped explain the history and meaning of Cap to the readers, but it helped introduce these characters who will be a larger part of the story as it continues. There's also a fourth narrator, who is not named, on the opening pages of the issue, and if anyone can guess who that narrator is, I'll have our lovely assistant editor Molly Lazer send them a No-Prize.

NRAMA: Got it. Time-wise, about how long is this happening after the fight in Civil War #7? He was, as shown in Front Line #11, in jail for a while, right?

EB: Well, in my original draft, this was just an hour or after the fight in Civil War #7, because that issue wasn't done, and I was just going off notes and outlines of what would happen. So, when it turned out that Cap was in holding for a few weeks, we had to tweak a few lines here or there to make that work, and there's some stuff in the next issue that explains that a bit more, and how Cap was wearing strength-dampening restraints, and stuff like that.

NRAMA: The walk to the courthouse steps. I’ve got to ask - who brings vegetables to throw to an arraignment? And don't say the same people who bring them to a vaudeville act...

EB: It was one of the Newsarama posters, I think. Someone who was really upset by the end of Civil War and stopped buying all comics and started buying fruits and vegetables instead.

NRAMA: Ah…I’ve got nothing for that one. Moving along…there’s been some debate on this one - when cap sees the laser sight - "Damn it to hell" Why? What are his concerns at that point?

EB: He's in a crowd, he's in restraints designed to hold super-humans, so just walking up those stairs is a lot of effort for him, and now, the US Marshal in front of him is about to get shot to create a diversion, is what's going through his mind right then. He's not going to let an innocent man get killed because of some plot against him. And remember, he's known the Red Skull is out there, and he's known that his war with Tony has taken their eyes off things like that. So, he does what he can and pushes the guy out of the way.

NRAMA: Given that line he said there, as well as his lines throughout the issue (not to mention the copious amounts of blood…) does that kind of throw out the notion that this was a Life Model Decoy or some other construct?

EB: Yep. And wait until you see the autopsy next issue.

NRAMA: But why wasn't Cap in a helmet and bulletproof armor? After all, we've seen the Eric Rudolf's and the Oklahoma bombers of the world show up in the high-collared vests with helmets....why not so much with Cap?

EB: Cap's scale-mail is probably bullet-proof to a degree, but a lot of sniper-rifles can shoot through bullet-proof material with no problem. This was a symbolic moment, too, so they wanted him in costume. The implication is that the Red Skull, through his connection with Lukin and the Kronas Corp. was able to pay someone off to get a sniper in position for this public event.

NRAMA: Speaking of the sniper - if Sam hadn't shown up, would Bucky have killed Crossbones?

EB: Probably, yeah.

NRAMA: By leaving him alive, and knowing who’s Cap's close friends are – how valuable is Crossbones' life now, anyway?

EB: We'll just have to see.

NRAMA: The last twist of the issue - Sharon remembering. Obviously from the news coverage at the very least, this issue of the series has brought in a lot of folks who may not have been reading - can you explain how Dr. Faustus got so close to Sharon to do what he did to her head?

EB: The implication a few issues ago, in the first Civil War tie-in, is that she's been seeing the SHIELD shrink (who is secretly Dr. Faustus) for a while, and that not only is he messing with her head, but he's been doing it for a while. Faustus even says to the Red Skull that she doesn't realize the reason she fell so hard for Steve again had to do with him pushing her that way. I just thought that was a really good way to bring back Dr. Faustus, who was always one of my favorite Cap villains from the old days. And it brought up his link with the Red Skull, and laid the groundwork for what they were going to do.

And it ain't over yet, by a long shot.

NRAMA: Playing devil’s advocate here - we've seen Cap dead before. Hell, we've seen him frozen in a block of ice before. There are and will be fans who are doubting this, and asking about dead really being "dead." Thoughts on the doubters, or words of advice for them?

EB: My advice -- Just read the comic if enjoy it, and don't if you don't. Stories are like a ride you go on, and if you don't like the ride, or don't want to see which turn comes next, you should get off, because you aren't in the driver's seat and you aren't steering -- the creators are. Hopefully, more readers than not will like the ride. So I say, take it for what it is, and try not to bring in preconceived notions of how it will or won't go. That's how I try to read my episodic comics.

But this constant second-guessing and need to get angry about stuff before they know what's happening that some comic fans have is a waste of their time and energy. And I can't hope to please those kinds of fans. Nothing does, generally, especially not anything big. I can only try to tell a good story and follow my instincts.

I'm confident in the story we're telling, and since Cap is one of my favorite Marvel characters since childhood, I wouldn't have killed him if I didn't think there was a great story to tell here.

NRAMA: Speaking of the ongoing story – this was part one of “Death of the Dream.” How many parts is this, and where are things going from here? Will someone be picking up the costume soon? What will be happening with Sharon?

EB: At one point, it was going to be a six part story, that then led into the next multi-parter, but it's since morphed into a nine part epic.

As for the other two questions, you'll see the answers to those in the next few issues of Cap, and in the Fallen Son books that Jeph Loeb is doing.

NRAMA: In terms of the "event" nature and media attention - what's your role when it comes to talking to the media? Obviously, you're here now, but are you say, "on call" to talk to the bigger boys? Are you anticipating doing a lot of talking?

EB: I don't know. It seems like maybe I will be. When I wrote this issue of Cap, it was last summer though, and most of Marvel were buried with Civil War and so in a way, I got lucky. I just wrote this issue the way I wanted it to be, and Tom read it, Steve Epting drew it. I think if I'd known going in this was going to be such a big deal that would get news coverage and all that, I might have been nervous and second-guessing myself while writing. As it is, I was sort of flying under the radar at the time, so it came out exactly as I wanted it to, and I haven't had to change a thing about how the story develops. It was kind of a dream, that way.

NRAMA: Pulling back to big picture one last time, what does the death of Cap do for the series in your view? How does it affect how you're approaching it, and how you're writing it?

EB: It removes the heart of the Marvel Universe, in some ways, especially in our book, since it's the Cap book. But in doing that, I think it gives me a chance to examine Cap and Steve Rogers, and his history and what they mean to the Marvel U and the characters that are closest to him. And it also lets me take the book down some seriously exciting and dark paths, which also spin out of the Post-Civil War status quo, with the New and Mighty Avengers, and Stark running SHIELD. Even though Cap is dead and isn't physically in the book, he's more in it than ever, in some ways, because everything that happens next is a reaction to his death. It's really pushed things up a few notches, I think.

NRAMA: Finally – one last item – second to last panel. Showing Cap's open eye under the sheet. Was that your instruction or did Steve Epting pick that up on his own? That really drove home the point…

EB: Here's my script for the last half of the final page of the issue, so you can see for yourself. I think that answers the question, doesn't it?

3—And in a room in the ER, Steve Rogers lies on a gurney, one arm hanging down, his Captain America glove visible on its hand. A white sheet has been pulled up to cover him, and blood soaks through the sheet from his belly and chest. We just see part of his face, where the sheet didn’t totally cover him up, and we see one eye, empty of life.

VOICE-OVER BOX (words like the last two panels): "…what did I do?”

4—Closer on the lifeless hand dangling down toward the tile floor, almost like it’s reaching for something it will never grasp. This panel fades to black at the bottom of the page, where the title and credits go.



Related:
Jeph Loeb on Fallen Son
Marvel's statement about Captain America
Best Shots Extra: Captain America #25
Captain America #25 Makes the Major Media

[Gridironham]

Let John Byrne bring back Steve Rogers!!


First post?
whoohooo!!

[davew]

It's a shame this wasn't included as part of the main Civil War book as it seems like such a logical continuation to the extent that it's a key part of the event, but I'm interested to see where it goes (until Steve inevitably returns, anyway). I haven't followed Brubaker's Cap, but he seems to write the character well.

[STL]

I like the fact that this was written before Editorial gave such weight to the story. Means that it might actually be readable unlike a lot of the other things they've forced through in recent times.

One thing about Bru's run is he's really made me feel, good or bad, for the characters whether theyre good guys or bad guys. It's really brought me in. Faustus is a perfect example. He used to be bad, but after what he's been doing to Sharon and Steve's r.ship, I just wanna see the guy get his butt kicked in. And that's what I think will elevate this story above gimmick status.

[pez dispenser]

Well, as controversial as this is, you just know that Brubaker will do a hell of a job, like he always does.
I'm not a Cap reader, but I just might pick this issue up (if there are still any around), when I pick my my books this weekend.

After reading all the reactions from everyone over the last 2 days, it looks like Marvel and Joe Q have done it again.....got people buzzing about another of their books, much to the chagrin of a few outraged fanboys.

Well done.

[Dragonzair]

EB: It was one of the Newsarama posters, I think. Someone who was really upset by the end of Civil War and stopped buying all comics and started buying fruits and vegetables instead.

LOL!

It must have been!

[Floyd Lawton]

I have faith in Brubaker. And I have faith Rogers will be back sooner or later.

[joem26]

First, I'm really angry that the press released the spoiler before the issue was released. I partially hold Marvel responsible for that.

Second, I'm still angry at Marvel for not collecting Brubaker's complete run on Cap in a couple nice hardcovers.

Third, I suspected half way through Civil War that Cap would die. We all know Cap's coming back. The only way I can think of to do this is to get some of Red Skull's DNA and clone a new Steve and that is a horrible idea.

I trust Brubaker though, and like he said, I won't be worrying about it and just hang on for the ride. I guess I'll have to break down and start buying this, even though I've been waiting for the hardcovers...

[withoutwax]

This is my first issue of Captain America and it was an incredible read. Two thumbs up!

[tiso_spencer]

Even though he said it worked out for him anyway, I am sure Brubaker is probably pissed at Marvel since he had a lot of ideas that now had to get pushed to the wayside for the character. This is so retarded because we know the real Captain America is coming back. All the news coverage was just over the top and the people on eBay making all that damn money, sigh....

and Marvel why the hell did you not hardcover this series after Vol. 2?

[Stanfield]

Originally Posted by Floyd Lawton

I have faith in Brubaker. [snip]

Yeah... I don't have much faith left in Marvel, and absolutely none in Quesada or Millar, but you're right - Brubaker always knocks it out of the park for me. I'm even more trusting after reading the interview with him over at CBR.

[Alexander Knox]

Originally Posted by joem26

First, I'm really angry that the press released the spoiler before the issue was released. I partially hold Marvel responsible for that.

Why would you? Marvel put out a press release for the day the comic was to be sold. You know, in order to increase sales. Marvel is a business, after all, and their primary concern is to make money.

The NYTimes doesn't owe it to anybody to wait until we've been to the shop before they run the story. They get a news story, they run it. It would have been foolish of Marvel to wait until after the issue had been released, because the information would already be out there, and the story wouldn't have been as newsworthy.

The fact that my local news ran "Captain America is dead" as a teaser shows what an effective marketing ploy this was. Great job, Marvel.

[Rob Barrett]

I had been buying Bru's run on Cap in trades, but I'm switching over to pamphlets now, at least for this story line--I don't want to wait a year to find out what happens.

The issue was sold out at my store before I got there so I haven't read it yet. But I did see a scan of the panel the interview discusses--Cap under the sheet with his open eye showing. It's one of the most powerful panels I've seen in a Marvel comic. Epting really hit a home run here.

[adamirer]

jesus, then stop buying what you dont like. it's as simple as that. I'm a little stunned they went down this route but i have complete faith in Bru, Bendis, Joe Q etc that this will be a superb read. Bru hit the nail on the head, stop trying to second guess and spoil the end for yourself, read it, enjoy it, savoir it and then see how they get themselves out of the hole they're in, thats what this is supposed to be all about after all!

[Ace]

In Bru we trust.

I still say that the guy is the best of his generation.

[areacode212]

There's also a fourth narrator, who is not named, on the opening pages of the issue, and if anyone can guess who that narrator is, I'll have our lovely assistant editor Molly Lazer send them a No-Prize.

Yeah, I was wondering who this was supposed to be...

[tiso_spencer]

Originally Posted by adamirer

jesus, then stop buying what you dont like. it's as simple as that. I'm a little stunned they went down this route but i have complete faith in Bru, Bendis, Joe Q etc that this will be a superb read. Bru hit the nail on the head, stop trying to second guess and spoil the end for yourself, read it, enjoy it, savoir it and then see how they get themselves out of the hole they're in, thats what this is supposed to be all about after all!

Second guessing what? The book was spoiled through every news outlet on the planet. He got shot and died.

Hell this is how it was when someone came into the LCS I was in a few hours after the book was on the shelf "So I heard Captain America died...." *People gasp, then slowly start inching toward the now sold out section where Captain America was.*

[Vintage]

Yeah, the marketing may have upset quite a few fans but you can bet your bottom dollar the end results have been huge for Marvel. Just look at the reaction, from the press to these boards. I've heard quite a few comments from people I know haven't looked at a comic in years if ever who are harping in on this. This worked out real well for Marvel. I'm glad this wasn't in CW, because I earnestly believe it would not have the emotional resonance it has here. Brubaker and Epting are on their game. With this arc being 9 issues, I have confidence I can ease up on where this is going. I'm down for the ride.

[BuckySinister]

Hmm. You know what I'm hearing most from funnybook fans about the death of Cap? "I wasn't reading this comic before this issue, but..."

So it took the character dying to get even the rabid super hero fans at Newsarama interested in him again? Even after two full years of a critically-acclaimed run by Brubaker and Epting?

Damn. Maybe Sally Floyd was right. Cap really was out of touch and irrelevant to modern America...

[mrswing]

Has no-one noticed the following?

Ed Brubaker:
Then I talked it over with Tom Brevoort, and with Bendis, since he's the other guy writing Cap in New Avengers, who'd be affected, and then I started laying the groundwork for this entire "Death of the Dream" storyline, seeding the Red Skull's behind the scenes stuff in the Civil War tie-in issues of Cap.

Isn't that a huge spoiler, as Cap isn't a member of the current line-up (since he's sort of not-quite-dead an' all)?

[TheUUShadow]

I bought this only because my Local Comic Shop owner sold it to me with my discount in order to get me to buy it (He was charging ten dollars to others).

Reading it I felt nothing. CW #7 pretty much made me not care about Marvel Characters.

I did get a good laugh out of checking out the ebay insanity currently going on. Let's see what it sells for in a year.

[Doctor_Chronos]

I don't care what Bru or any other of Marvel staff say. Steve Rogers is not dead. It was an advanced LMD that really thought it was Cap. Just like that LMD that really thought it was Fury and the LMD that really thought it was Diamond Back (or whatever her name was).

There all just telling the same story to keep the hype going and keep the surpise safe for later.

[Ian]

I want someone to ask Joe Quesada in one of his Joe Fridays if he would feel like this stunt was diminished if the next EiC brought back Steve Rogers? Resurrecting long dead characters has been a hallmark of Quesada's tenure.

I never thought I'd see Captain Marvel or Bucky alive in comics again but look where we are.

Oh yeah, and I had never heard of Captain America before this so this must be one of the best things ever.

[DoctorEvil]

My memory is it was something I floated as what I could do in Cap after Civil War's finale that would really stun people, and that would build off the buzz generated by Civil War.

Hmmmm.....so the purpose of shooting Captain America was to stun people and create a buzz? It seems like the wrong reason to kill off an iconic character.

I'm a pretty big Cap fan, but I didn't "feel" anything about this story because, like everyone else, I'm certain Steve Rogers will be back. When the purpose of a character's death is to create a "good story", it's hard to take the "good story" seriously when you know that somewhere down the road this be reversed. Every story that Marvel's ever told that involved a character with an emotional death has been undone, thus lessening the impact the death had in the first place.

[Speedball93]

My guess is that the Red Skull realizes that he is nothing without his nemesis and goes on some quest to bring him back, because every villain needs a hero to be his thorn. Cosmic cube or clonage. Take your pick now true believers!!! You heard it here first!!