JEPH LOEB TALKS FALLEN SON...IN DETAIL

[MattBrady]

Among the ramifications of this week’s Captain America #25 is the new light that’s been shed on Marvel’s previously solicited five-issue Civil War: Fallen Son limited series of one-shots.

Here is what we already knew – written by Jeph Loeb and each issue drawn by a high-profile Marvel artist, each one-shot focuses on one of the five stages of grief. Now we knew who was doing the grieving, just not for whom they will be grieving for.

But as of today, that’s now changed. So we got Jeph Loeb on the line straight from Hollywood, California for a conversation about the specials, now that the official seal has been lifted…

Newsarama: So okay Jeph, as we understand Fallen Son: Death of Captain America (as suggested by J. Michael Straczynski) tracks the five psychological stages of grief by five prominent characters or groups in the Marvel Universe…

So maybe the best place to start is to ask for your reaction to the story development? What did you think when you got the email or it was decided at an editorial meeting to kill Steve Rogers… at least for a while anyways?

Jeph Loeb: This happened relatively quickly. We were at the creative summit at Christmas and while I knew that something was going to happen, I wasn't really aware that it was this... Damn, Brevoort and his conspiracies... You know that's who Bendis' bases all his Nick Fury stuff on, right?!

So, I heard that the end of Civil War led into Cap #25 and The Death of Captain America and just about @#$% my pants. Cap's one of my favorite characters ever and so I asked the dumb question: Does this mean that Marvel is going out of business?!

We all agreed that we needed to do what was the comic book equivalent of having the flags all stay at half-mast for 30 days... but what was that? Company crossover? A black band on all the books? What?!!!

...and that's when JMS spoke up. Like Zeus with a lightning bolt, he had written down the five stages of grief that would each be chapters of some kind of memorial book - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

NRAMA: Pardon if this has been asked and answered previously, but how did this assignment land with you?

JL: Well, continuing off that last question, the creative summits often work like a writer's room in television. One idea sparks another and then it suddenly becomes a thing. The second JMS said "The five stages of grief" I got it. I knew exactly who should be in the stories, why, and even what it would look like. My brain is just wired like that... if I see something, it's fully formed. I was literally picking up the comics at the store in my mind. (Yeah, I know, weird...)

Unfortunately, due to the death of my own son [note: Jeph lost his son Sam in June 2005 to cancer at the age of 17], I knew a little too much about these stages. It's not a perfect explanation of human behavior, but things like this had happened to me.

Maybe that's why I knew I had to call it Fallen Son.

I just leapt at it. Started rattling off the chapters the characters. I saw Brevoort's neck veins start to pop (which is always a good sign) because I think he had vacation tickets in mind after Civil War, not something this big. David Bogart's calculator started to smoke as he punched facts and figures into it to find the artists I was talking about (yeah, i even was pitching them) and I was waiting for his head to explode.

Curiously, only Quesada was sitting quietly... a smile on his face. That's how I knew we were onto something. The Cheshire Cat of comics.

The rest was working out schedules, including my own, to make this happen. Bill Rosemann has worked tirelessly to keep it running. Bogart and Buckley shook the trees to make the five perfect artists available for each section. JQ got Mike Turner to do the alternative covers.

Now, all I had to was write the scripts... And in-between writing and producing episodes of Heroes while working on Wolverine…that wouldn't be too hared... Yikes! [laughs]

NRAMA: Give us a sense of where these stories fit in the grand scheme of things in the post-Civil War Marvel Universe? The five stages of grief are all about the mind simply dealing with the trauma and getting to a point where it can be accepted. Is this your charge, simply help readers get to that place?

In other words, is this more about providing closure for Cap’s role in Civil War, or will you be setting up things for future storylines for the character’s involved?

JL: My intention and I believe everyone involved in this agrees, was to give the readers a sense of the loss that was being felt in the Marvel Universe. No matter what happens in future storylines, right now, right at this very moment, the people who are in this story whose lives were touched by the most beloved character (in my humble opinion)) in the Marvel Universe are feeling something. I'm trying to express that in these five issues.

NRAMA: How much did you have to work with the Brubaker’s and Bendis’s of the word to make sure these stories are as seamless as possible to what’s happening in the monthlies?

JL: Absolutely. Even though this grew out of a so-called editorial retreat, nothing happens at Marvel that isn't creatively driven. Quesada encourages that all the writers jam with each other to get the best stories possible. JQ's a writer and artist, so he approaches everything from a storytelling perspective. I have more emails from Bendis, Millar, Brubaker, and JMS than I can possibly count. Of course, they all have to do with getting money out of Nigeria, but it's still very helpful [laughs].

NRAMA: All right, let’s go through each one-shot for a few moments…

Wolverine – Denial.

First of all, why Wolverine to embody denial?

JL: Logan is the one character who has the brass ones to tell the world "I don't buy it." Let's face it, that's what the readers are saying, so let's explore that. And it's a very real reaction to death. Convince Wolverine, and you convince the world.

Leinil Yu, for my money, just exploded on the scene when he was drawing the Wolverine monthly. So, he was the first and only choice. He got it all. The action and emotion. Fantastic stuff.

NRAMA: Denial has almost a double, if not triple meaning, as you allude to yourself.

The traditional psychological significance of denial is the mind just can’t handle the reality for the moment. But in the Marvel Universe, doubting that a hero is dead – particularly Cap – is not an entirely unreasonable assumption. So how are you walking that line – between portraying Wolverine as someone whose mind just isn’t ready to accept this (the psychological) , and someone who is skeptical because of all the things he’s seen in his lifetime/career (the practical)?

JL: Totally. And let's face it, between Winter Soldier (who is Cap's longtime thought dead partner Bucky) and Cap himself who was thought dead from 1944 to when he woke up in a block of ice, Wolverine has a lot to work with in the denial department. But, in a larger sense, he's in touch with the X-Men, with The Avengers, and I'm sure he's guest-starring in Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane next month [laughs] so he's the one who is going to tell everybody whether or not this is the truth.

NRAMA: Again, as you yourself mention, there will probably be a number of readers who are also skeptical that Steve Rogers is, or will remain dead for very long. Adding a third layer to the denial factor. Is that making its way into how you’re writing this in any way?

JL: I wish I lived in a world where death is an imaginary story. But I can't. So I wrote these stories about what is happening to the Marvel Universe today. What is happening to our heroes in the aftermath of a great conflict and the price that is paid. Comics work the best when they touch on the real events and transform them into dazzling images. So, hopefully, it's real, compelling and exciting all at the same time.

NRAMA: New Avengers – Anger.

Now the New and Mighty Avengers were and still are on opposite sides of the registration issue, and neither are directly responsible for his death. After all, Cap surrendered, he wasn’t defeated. So who is angry, and at whom?

JL: When something of this magnitude happens, we try and find a way to understand it. They don't have to be angry at anyone or anything. The unfairness of the universe is enough. And because working with Bendis led to quickly understanding the difference of the two teams, the way in which we deal with anger became apparent.

So this issue actually tells the story from two different perspectives. The Mighty Avengers go out and answer a big time monstrous attack while the New Avengers try and have a poker game. Neither of them are going to end pretty. There are a couple of guest-stars who are no strangers to anger who help voice what is happening to our heroes, not only in the story but in the larger universe as well.

I had worked with Ed McGuinness on stories that had this kind of scope (and numbers of characters) regularly on Superman/Batman. He was blazing through my second Ultimates arc, so we had time to do a one shot here that would have the kind of scope the story demanded. It's just a big wow.

NRAMA: Captain America – Bargaining.

Hmmm, so talk about this one as much as you can. Who is doing the bargaining here? The next guy who assumes the mantle of Captain America? Or will you be following Steve Rogers in the after-life maybe trying to make a deal to reverse his fate..?

JL: Without giving too much away, there are lots of people in the Marvel Universe (and I'm betting out there in the readership) who are already trying to figure out who should be the next Captain America. Some folks would argue that it was Steve Rogers who was killed, not Cap and that Cap should and must live on. Then there's the opposition who believe that Steve Rogers was Cap. We'll see in Fallen Son #1 that Tony Stark has Cap's shield. What he wants to do with it with surprise some people, anger others, and hopefully fall right into line with what came out of Civil War.

When we first started talking about this, I had in the back of my mind that John Romita, Jr. had drawn every single character who I could think in the Marvel Universe. And what's even more delightful, is that he did it with style. But, I couldn't think of an issue of Captain America where JRJr. took the lead. Even though I could see the images of what JRJr. would do with both the strength and power of the character (Cap hurling the shield? Other than Kirby, C’mon! It screams Johnny!) I wanted him to have focus on Cap as the star of the story. This is the first time I've worked with JRJr. and his participation is thrilling on a very personal level.

NRAMA: Spider-Man- Depression.

So why is Peter taking this so hard? Does he fell culpable in some indirect way because he was too late to change sides?

JL: Spider-Man, for me, is best when he's being driven by guilt. I mean, his origin came out of guilt - if he'd only stopped that burglar, Uncle Ben would still be alive! So, yes, whatever role Peter had in Civil War, he feels it certainly didn't make the conflict any better. Guilt is not always a logical emotion. You just feel it. And the more you feel it, the greater the tendency is to have things tumble into depression.

But, I want to be very clear here. Just because a story is about depression, doesn't mean it has to be depressing. This, for me, was the most emotional story because, let's face it, death is depressing. And whether or not you can survive it speaks to your strength of character and I'm by no means holding myself up as any kind of beacon of hope. Spidey (along with another character who tracks a lot of Fallen Son) has to try and comes to terms with what has happened and unfortunately, death is something he know quite a lot about. His parents. Uncle Ben. His best friend Harry Osborne. His first love, Gwen Stacy.

It's a wonder he can go on at all. And that speaks to his character if and how he even can.

Dave Finch and I have been wanting to work together since I came back to Marvel. He has the ability to do the quiet moments and the big moments that comics often compel us to do. We talked for a very long time about how this issue would look and feel. When Dave turned in the cover, he just nailed the power and emotion this story needed. His pages are quite simply brilliant.

NRAMA: Finally. Iron Man – Acceptance.

Ummmm, now this is an interesting choice. The guy arguably most responsible for putting Cap in position for the Red Skull to take his shot …the guy debatably vilified still by some Marvel readers …is charged with representing acceptance? Why did you choose Iron Man/Tony for this final stage?

And same question as with the New Avengers chapter – how is this special different than Civil War: The Confession which apparently involves Tony coming to terms, and how did you and Bendis avoid bumping into one another..?

JL: The Confession also grew out of the same retreat. Like any subject matter, two people can approach same topic and have two completely different takes on it. So, I love what Bendis has to say in that book, but it's not what happens in mine. And Brubaker covers a great deal of this in Cap #26. Acceptance, not only because it is the final issue, but because Tony's dilemma of the role he plays in “The Death of Captain America”, is focused on him, but it is really about the entire Marvel Universe. How are they going to accept what has happened. And the simple answers is - some will, some won't and for all of them, it will take time.

As soon as we agreed who we wanted for the first four artists, the last issue had to be ... special. John Cassaday is one of the finest illustrators working in comics today. And if we were going to tell the world that these stories are truly a loving tribute to this character, it had to be with Cass -- who is one of the most outspoken Cap fans out there. This is going to be a huge cast and as he's proven time and again, and most recently, in Astonishing X-Men, he delivers on every single character he touches. We've wanted to work together for some time now, but our schedules wouldn't allow that to happen. And after having to cover as big a story as this one will demand... I hope he'll speak to me afterwards! [laughs].

I do want to take a moment to thank Joss Whedon, Cass' partner on Astonishing, who helped move things around in the schedule so Cass could this. Joss in the man. Or, an even higher compliment (for Joss) would be to say he's the wo-man! [laughs]

NRAMA: All right then Jeph, any final thoughts for readers at this point?

JL: Just that I know - being a fellow comic book fan myself - I'm sure this story is very shocking and upsetting. My intention is to try and wrestle those feelings to the ground. It's not easy what Marveldom is going through and it won't be for fandom either. If Fallen Son helps speak to those reactions, then that's half the battle. And if Cap has taught us anything, it's to fight on.

[Tobias]

I'll probably get this.

[avengingtitan]

Wait issue 26 of Cap is the final issue?? How is that news??

[Ye Olde Iowa]

I'll definitely be picking this series up. This is one of the better ideas spinning out of any superhero death that I can think of, and I'm glad to see that they have such capable teams working on each issue. Jeph's got a great approach, great artists to back him up, and a ton of skill. This is going to be great, no doubt.

[Samson]

all i am saying is nay...nay, nay, nay.

[atanamar]

Originally Posted by MattBrady

And if Cap has taught us anything, it's to fight on.

Really? Not what I read.

[SHIM'TAR]

I wonder how much this affects what Brubaker had planned for Cap's regular series or was this his plan all along. I don't get how it could be because so many plot threads have been left dangling.

[RedRonin]

Final issue has in last of the series or final issue as in last issue of this storyline?

Is the mini spilling into Captain America or is Brubaker's great series endding?

Damn, that would suck. Unless it will be replaced by Winter Solider ongoing.

Brubaker should be writing this. Not Jeph "Let me work on whatever I want to" Loeb.

[I am MODOK]

Originally Posted by avengingtitan

Wait issue 26 of Cap is the final issue?? How is that news??

That's news to me! I hadn't heard that. Wow.

[Police-dude]

Originally Posted by avengingtitan

Wait issue 26 of Cap is the final issue?? How is that news??

Mabey i overread it, but where did you get that from?
It is still going as far as i know.
I really liked Civil War, but this i just dont. Another lame wannebe-death and probable a new # 1 issue coming up in the future. I hope Brubacker makes it a little better then it looks to me. He hasnt let me down so far


Civil War: The Return: REMEMBER, CAPTAIN MARVEL IS STIL DEAD
This is a 'classis C.M' But not 'the' C.M.
This one is from a timeline from the past, right? He could've also become an Exiles member.
The real one is still dead and burried on that astroid.

[subescapedth]

I really do not think Steve will stay dead!

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by avengingtitan

Wait issue 26 of Cap is the final issue?? How is that news??

Are you serious? Is this true?

[cactusmaac]

I skipped all of Civil War but I'm getting these.

[Merai]

Wait issue 26 of Cap is the final issue?? How is that news??

It's not, he was referring to "Fallen Son"'s final issue.

And Brubaker said CW doesn't affect his plans at all so obviously this death was driven by him.

[JohnnyZemo]

Originally Posted by avengingtitan

Wait issue 26 of Cap is the final issue??

Read the article again. Acceptance is the last issue of the Fallen Son limited series. Captain America is an ongoing comic.

[Cheech-Daddy]

Well it's been a hell of a day. i get the ness online and rush out on my lunch break to get my books and I'm shocked because yep.. looks like he's dead. then ms marvel says in the initiative that he's not. then then the release from Marvel and now this.

I'm glad. This looks like it's going to be very powerful. I'm immensely looking forward to this.

[Steve Magnum]

Originally Posted by Police-dude

Mabey i overread it, but where did you get that from?
It is still going as far as i know.

REMEMBER, CAPTAIN MARVEL IS STIL DEAD This is a 'classis C.M' But not 'the' C.M.
This one is from a timeline from the past, right? He could've also become an Exiles member.
The real one is still dead and burried on that astroid.

And Captain America dies :S

It says so right here:

JL: The Confession also grew out of the same retreat. Like any subject matter, two people can approach same topic and have two completely different takes on it. So, I love what Bendis has to say in that book, but it's not what happens in mine. And Brubaker covers a great deal of this in Cap #26. Acceptance, not only because it is the final issue, but because Tony's dilemma of the role he plays in “The Death of Captain America”, is focused on him, but it is really about the entire Marvel Universe. How are they going to accept what has happened. And the simple answers is - some will, some won't and for all of them, it will take time.

[Police-dude]

Originally Posted by Merai

It's not, he was referring to "Fallen Son"'s final issue.

And Brubaker said CW doesn't affect his plans at all so obviously this death was driven by him.

oh thanks, thats good news

[Ken B.]

Cassady on the last chapter? That's just stupid.

[Punchy]

Originally Posted by Ken B.

Cassady on the last chapter? That's just stupid.

Why?

He's a good artist.

[POWRSURG]

Originally Posted by I am MODOK

That's news to me! I hadn't heard that. Wow.

It's not. Loeb said that Bru was dealing with acceptance in issue 26. The concept of acceptance is also what is dealt with in the final issue of the Fallen Son mini.

[bebopeva88]

Originally Posted by avengingtitan

Wait issue 26 of Cap is the final issue?? How is that news??

Acceptance is the last issue of the Fallen Son mini, not Cap #26 is the last issue of Cap.

Marvel has said several times today that Captain America will still be published.

[TheLizard207]

Steve Rogers was always one of my favorites. Loeb... not so much.

Pass unless it receives rave reviews.

[Speedball93]

Originally Posted by avengingtitan

Wait issue 26 of Cap is the final issue?? How is that news??

I think he meant final issue of the mini. Not the final issue of Cap. They have alreay said that Cap will continue even though Steve Rogers is dead. Yeah, it was kind of confusing the way he worded it.

[cindercatz]

Originally Posted by Jeph Loeb

. And if Cap has taught us anything, it's to fight on.

Or, at least, that should have been true.