WONDERCON '07: GENDER & GENRE IN COMICS

[MattBrady]

by Ian Brill

Two back-to-back panels tackled the subject of gender politics in genre fiction on WonderCon Sunday. The first “Girls Kick Ass!” was moderated by Diana Gill of HarperCollins division Eos Books and concentrated on comics and prose. The panelists were Judd Winick (Outsiders), Linda Medley (Castle Waiting), Phil Jimenez (Wonder Woman), Vicki Petterson (The Scent of Shadows) and Ellen Klages (The Green Glass Sea). The other panel, starting immediately after the first, was “Gender and Genre,” hosted by the California Browncoats in partnership with Equality Now. This panel was more concerned about television and film. Moderated by Equality Now’s Amanda Sullivan it featured Jane Espenson (Battlestar Galactica, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Firefly) and Pia Guerra (Y: The Last Man).

To start the panel everybody mentioned their favorite female heroes. Jimenez set the tone of the panel when talking about the qualities of Wonder Woman he appreciates so much. “From her point-of-view she was designed to be a teacher,” he said. “To teach young people a set of values that I personally believe in.” Jimenez appreciated that she was more than just a fighting Amazon but also someone who spread knowledge and empathy, a quality rarely built into male superheroes and something that made her a strong and compelling character. As he would say later in the panel, comparing his fondness for Wonder Woman to a character like Wolverine, “I appreciate compassion and love more than the ability to gut you.”

Two major discussion points throughout were the related questions of does a female hero have to be physically violent to be “kick ass” and does it become too easy to just give a female hero masculine qualities and says to the world she’s tough? For the actual kicking of ass Klages declared “violence should be a last resort. It’s very heroic.” As for exemplifying other attributes Winick said “It’s about the story. There’s Buffy and The Bride but there’s the women of The West Wing. They’re strong and gender doesn’t really play into it.” Patterson said she does like playing with the fantasy aspects and including violence in her stories but agrees it must be organic.

When asked what women in their personal lives inspired their fiction Klages said that her interest in characters overcoming their perceived lack of strength comes from her sister who has Down Syndrome. She grew up seeing her become a person that others don’t see. It’s the reason why the main character in her book has an impaired leg. She is able to live everyone else’s world and be cool, it’s everyone else who has to get used to it.

Jimenez steered the group into an ethical discussion when he brought up The Dark Phoenix version of Jean Grey. She was the most powerful character in the Marvel Universe but she also killed entire planets of people. Does a female character have to be good to be admirable? Jimenez take on superheroes is “these characters represent a greater good. They don’t have downtime. What kind of flaw can you give a perfect person that’s engaging but can make them not evil?” During the audience Q&A a fan mentioned that characters like Dark Phoenix are cathartic, to be as bad men are and not have to pay for it.

The use of beauty in characters brought up by another audience member. “So much of it is personal taste” said Medley. “There’s a pop culture standard you can use. I like to bust stereotypes, to blow people’s minds on what their character’s personalities are.”

Near the end of discussion the subject of the panel was flipped from girls kicking ass to boys who are allowed to be sensitive. Jimenez talked about the difficulty he’s had maintaining the character Tempest. Since he’s so passive creators want to either “fix” him or kill him outright. Jimenez defends the character by saying there are already a thousand character who carter to the typical idea of a hero so there should be an alternative.

Winick said that he hopes panels like this one will be redundant in ten years. “Just like when you see older comics tackle political issues it seems clunky,” he said. “I hope my work seems clunky in a few years.”

The Gender and Genre panel started with moderator Sullivan quoting Espenson’s old boss Joss Whedon in saying that genre is a whisper into the ear of the public that can possibly change the world.

Espenson started the panel saying that the woman on television that she was attracted to were the career women such as Jane Hathaway on The Beverly Hillbillies or Rose Marie on The Dick Van Dyke Show. To see a woman take a job outside of teacher or nurse was a breath of fresh air. On Star Trek, she was much more excited about the Romulan Commander on the episode “The Enterprise Incident” than Lt. Uhura.

One thing that frustrates Espenson about the television writing business, and it is something she sees less of, is the idea the women on staff should have to write the “softer” episodes of the series. Guerra said she saw similar things in comics. It kept her from falling into any stereotype. She drew what she wanted to draw, which was mainly stuff blowing up. Espenson has recently found a reversal of what she used to see. She is writing for the comedy Andy Barker P.I. and since she’s the only writer to work on dramas she is often drafted to write the action sequences.

Guerra said she was hesitant about Y: The Last Man because she worried that the story was going to be a utopian tale of how great the world is without men. “People are people,” she said. “The world is always screwed up.” She felt Y was about people picking up after an apocalyptic event.

Asked what defines a hero of either gender Espenson said that she believed they have to take up action despite fear. She doesn’t think physical strength is more inspiring, it’s just employed more in television and film because it’s more visual. Similar to the sentiments of the last panel she felt that audiences can take that kind of strength metaphorically and be strong in ways that are more accessible.

One question considered the gender neutrality of so much of the storytelling on Battlestar Galactica and how that can be sign of progress. Espenson said that maybe that’s how you know television’s gotten somewhere because you can have a damaged woman such as Starbuck and not have to worry about her being emblematic of all women in the medium. Guerra appreciated that saying she felt she comes from a more egalitarian point of view than feminist a one.

Espenson was asked to comment on a scene in the Battlestar Galactica episode, “The Woman King.” She said that while the action of the character doing the laundry while Helo doesn’t help wasn’t in the script she wasn’t too bothered by it. She did admit that “it’s easy to forget that it wouldn’t be right for the world you’re working with.”

A familiar topic that the second panel covered was the danger in writing a woman who just acts like a man. Espenson wasn’t too concerned about it. “If people are just people then isn’t a woman acting like a woman meaningless?” she wondered. “Can’t you just act like the character you are?”

As whether Espenson feels responsible to write characters that will inspire young girls Espenson said “it’s a responsibility not do negative stuff. If you just write people you’re doing your job.”

[SmileOnADog]

Excellent subject. I think there is an opportunity to lure female readers from manga to comics. I see more women and girls buying manga at Borders than I see males buying comic books.

[JAGII]

Originally Posted by MattBrady

As he would say later in the panel, comparing his fondness for Wonder Woman to a character like Wolverine, “I appreciate compassion and love more than the ability to gut you.”

This is a wonderfully insightful comment. I wish more creators would take this approach, not just with Wonder Woman, but with all characters.

[Kolimar]

Very interesting panels. Nice report.

[Mr Prince]

Great article. I'm very glad WonderCon had this panel and it was great discourse on the subject.

All the best...

Scott

[avery]

With all due respect to Mr. Winick, perhaps women would enjoy comics more if comics writers like yourself would cease objectifying women in your books. Case in point, how many female member of the Outisiders are gay? It has become redundant and somewhat creepy. Winick has already beaten that particular dead horse in Exiles. It seems just like an excuse for female characters groping each other. And how about Thunder's costume?

Practice what you preach my friend.

[MattBrady]

Originally Posted by avery

With all due respect to Mr. Winick, perhaps women would enjoy comics more if comics writers like yourself would cease objectifying women in your books.

How is he objectifying them by making them gay? There aren't gay women in the world? I'm really not clear on how portraying characters as gay makes them more "objects" than dressing them in skin-tight outfits. Obviously, if you're looking for specific characteristics, any characteristic shown by any character can be objectifying - hair, leg length, etc... I...guess.

But how does he "objectify" (in your opinion) them in his other books?

MattB

[imwithcap]

Originally Posted by avery

With all due respect to Mr. Winick, perhaps women would enjoy comics more if comics writers like yourself would cease objectifying women in your books. Case in point, how many female member of the Outisiders are gay? It has become redundant and somewhat creepy. Winick has already beaten that particular dead horse in Exiles. It seems just like an excuse for female characters groping each other. And how about Thunder's costume?

Practice what you preach my friend.

Dont talk about Winick like that. putting blink in charge, oh and what was that? straight? was not objectyfying women.by the same token, how often is there actual groping in outsiders? once every two or three issues. maybe he sees lesbianism as a norm in his life. probably ont, but maybe he has a gay sister. nobody else is being harased for featuring gay characters.

[JAGII]

Originally Posted by MattBrady

How is he objectifying them by making them gay? There aren't gay women in the world?

While there are certainly gay women in the world, none of them look like the characters in The Outsiders. Two attractive, scantily clad women making out seems to be more like titillation for male heterosexuals than an honest portrayal of gay women.

I do realize, however, that these are mainstream super-hero comics, where no physically normal people exist and everyone is gorgeous and sexually charged. The only honest portrayals would have to be emotional ones, and Thunder's conflicting feelings may reflect this. We'll have to see how the arc ends.

[darkpiece150]

Originally Posted by JAGII

While there are certainly gay women in the world, none of them look like the characters in The Outsiders.

Wow, I didn't realize there was a model for gay women... Something new learned everyday. @_@

[

[darkpiece150]

Originally Posted by avery

Winick has already beaten that particular dead horse in Exiles.

Dead horse? Wow, um... hmmm having read Exiles, from 1 to current, including Winnick's run... I must say that statement is completely out of this world. There was barely a horse to beat!

You sound like one of those Winick haters. Hidden agenda, maybe?

[littleguybru]

Originally Posted by Judd Winick

“I hope my work seems clunky in a few years.”

Oh God, he' just asking for it.

[JAGII]

Originally Posted by darkpiece150

Wow, I didn't realize there was a model for gay women... Something new learned everyday. @_@

I'll trust you are feigning ignorance about my point for the sake of snark, and I'll try not to respond in kind.

My point is not to suggest that every gay woman fits one particular model, quite the opposite, in fact. A multitude of people with widely divergent backgrounds, experiences, and body types have homosexual experiences. Yet, not surprisingly, the most common portrayal of homosexual experience is that of attractive, scantily clad women with active sex drives-- and not just in pornography. While the intention may very well be to provide mainstream attention to a legitimate human experience, the effect, more often than not with these representations, is titillation for straight males.

If Winnick wants to bring another facet of the human experience to super-hero comics, I am all for that. However, hot girl-on-girl action is hardly in short supply, and I fear that he runs the risk of that type of exploitation with his portrayals.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by JAGII

While there are certainly gay women in the world, none of them look like the characters in The Outsiders. Two attractive, scantily clad women making out seems to be more like titillation for male heterosexuals than an honest portrayal of gay women.

I do realize, however, that these are mainstream super-hero comics, where no physically normal people exist and everyone is gorgeous and sexually charged. The only honest portrayals would have to be emotional ones, and Thunder's conflicting feelings may reflect this. We'll have to see how the arc ends.

Actually I wasnt aware that any REAL WOMEN gay, striaght, or otherwise looked like women in the outsiders.

[JAGII]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Actually I wasnt aware that any REAL WOMEN gay, striaght, or otherwise looked like women in the outsiders.

Right.

I recognize that in the second part of the my post that you quoted. It's in your post, right above your comment.

[avery]

Originally Posted by darkpiece150

Dead horse? Wow, um... hmmm having read Exiles, from 1 to current, including Winnick's run... I must say that statement is completely out of this world. There was barely a horse to beat!

You sound like one of those Winick haters. Hidden agenda, maybe?

Nope, not at all. I happily read Green Arrow every month (awesome book) was pleased by Judd's non Red Hood issues of Batman and was a HUGE fan of his Green Lantern run. I devoured Blood and Water, and thought his SUperman/Shazam series was one of the top three Superman books of the last decade.

His portrayal of Sunfire's lesbianism in Exiles caused a gay female friend of mine to drop the book. His treatment of gay characters in the Outsider's is forced, icky, and down right voyeuristically creepy. He is better than that, and it WILL turn of female readership to mainstream comics.

Gotham Central, Catwoman, and even 52 have treated the subject with respect and did not make me when to take a shower after reading them.

[darkpiece150]

Originally Posted by JAGII

I'll trust you are feigning ignorance about my point for the sake of snark, and I'll try not to respond in kind.

My point is not to suggest that every gay woman fits one particular model, quite the opposite, in fact. A multitude of people with widely divergent backgrounds, experiences, and body types have homosexual experiences. Yet, not surprisingly, the most common portrayal of homosexual experience is that of attractive, scantily clad women with active sex drives-- and not just in pornography. While the intention may very well be to provide mainstream attention to a legitimate human experience, the effect, more often than not with these representations, is titillation for straight males.

If Winnick wants to bring another facet of the human experience to super-hero comics, I am all for that. However, hot girl-on-girl action is hardly in short supply, and I fear that he runs the risk of that type of exploitation with his portrayals.

Well, being gay myself and an art student, drawing super hero lesbians/homosexuals/bisexuals/whatever I would likely draw them looking pretty damn good/hot/attractive and scantly clad, especally for anything remotely close to a sex scene. Hell, if they weren't superheroes I'd still draw them really good looking, or at least what I think would be good looking.
And, 30 issues back no one thought they were gay, or at least not thunder (lol), so taking two existing characters and having them be gay, and superheroes(shocking I know), is all good and well. Hell, we should be happy their even gay.

I also didn't realize that superheroes weren't suppose to be good looking and to some sexually pleasing to look at in the imaginary world fo comics.
It's a superhero comic with gay characters, even if they aren't having sex, or even lesbians, they are still gong to be wearing things that don't leave much to the imagination and it's all a make believe world where most of the people are gonna be pretty good looking.

I don't see anyone bitching about Apolo and the Midnighter. I think they deserve much naked time and sexual happy fun time.

[darkpiece150]

Originally Posted by avery

Nope, not at all. I happily read Green Arrow every month (awesome book) was pleased by Judd's non Red Hood issues of Batman and was a HUGE fan of his Green Lantern run. I devoured Blood and Water, and thought his Superman/Shazam series was one of the top three Superman books of the last decade.

His portrayal of Sunfire's lesbianism in Exiles caused a gay female friend of mine to drop the book. His treatment of gay characters in the Outsider's is forced, icky, and down right voyeuristically creepy. He is better than that, and it WILL turn of female readership to mainstream comics.

Gotham Central, Catwoman, and even 52 have treated the subject with respect and did not make me when to take a shower after reading them.

Really? I'm gay and I liked Sunfire's lesbianism. It made me want to read more, besides other great reasons. I also read Green Arrow, loved his Red Hood stuff quite a lot (being a Jason Todd fan), and I though Super/Shaz was fantastic. I also apologize for my hidden agenda comment. It's just a very common thing I see.

I thought the Outsiders stuff was more secretive in feeling then creepy. Icky though...?

I'm looking foward to more of the 52 going on's between Mont and Batwomen, and I hope they continue to go into it after 52. But, if they don't right away then no biggie.

[JAGII]

Originally Posted by darkpiece150

I also didn't realize that superheroes weren't suppose to be good looking and to some sexually pleasing to look at in the imaginary world fo comics.
It's a superhero comic with gay characters, even if they aren't having sex, or even lesbians, they are still gong to be wearing things that don't leave much to the imagination and it's all a make believe world where most of the people are gonna be pretty good looking.

True, this is a make-believe fantasy world we're talking about, but that doesn't mean the world cannot have tethers to the real world. This is particularly true with Winnick's work, as he often pulls real-world situations into his super-hero work and tries to engage in larger, external conversations (Terry Berg = Matthew Shepard, OYL Star City = post-Katrina New Orleans).

And, again, this is the point I'm trying to make. If Winnick is trying to infuse real world issues into his super-hero comics, he should be aware of the exploitation line he's walking.

Originally Posted by darkpiece150

I don't see anyone bitching about Apolo and the Midnighter. I think they deserve much naked time and sexual happy fun time.

I can promise you that such "bitching" exists in relation to these characters, but the arguments are the exact opposite of the one I'm trying to make here. Gay males, attractive or otherwise, do not receive nearly as much exposure as lesbians. Putting them in a comic book may run the risk of being mere shock value, as most everything in The Authority does, but it is not exploitation or straight male titillation, as I have been arguing.

[darkpiece150]

Originally Posted by JAGII

True, this is a make-believe fantasy world we're talking about, but that doesn't mean the world cannot have tethers to the real world. This is particularly true with Winnick's work, as he often pulls real-world situations into his super-hero work and tries to engage in larger, external conversations (Terry Berg = Matthew Shepard, OYL Star City = post-Katrina New Orleans).

And, again, this is the point I'm trying to make. If Winnick is trying to infuse real world issues into his super-hero comics, he should be aware of the exploitation line he's walking.

He can't write things unreal world then? I mean it's his book. His writing. He should be able to have it however he and the artist want it. I read it. Other people read it. It sells well enough. I don't see too big of a problem really.

[Drink]

I think what JAGII was trying to say in terms of "Real women" being portrayed is that in the comics, all the lesbians are portrayed as buxom supermodel types. Well, all Female characters are really, but that in of itself is a criticism.

It's the idea that it's essentially an excuse to show beautiful women making out with one another, which isn't all that common of a portrayal of any relationship outside of the porn industry.

Anyway, the ratio of Gays and Lesbians in comics is pretty horribly skewed, especially for DC. Not counting Wildstorm, how many regular gay characters are there in DC? Pied Piper, Obsidian, someone from Manhunter, and I think one guy in Checkmate. With Lesbians on the other hand, you got Montoya, Batwoman, Holly Robinson & her Partner, Maggie Sawyer, Scandal & Knockout, and now Grace and Thunder. Almost all the lesbians are at least fairly well known or in regular books, whilst the gay men are obscure at best. Midnighter and Apollo are probably the best portrayal of a gay couple in comics that I've seen, and part of that might be that they don't go around announcing it every 5 minutes like most of the Lesbians do.

So I think that is most definitely something that should be addressed properly.

[munsung02]

of course, we could also talk about how EVERYONE who is a superhero is more or less portrayed with an outstanding physique these (there are exceptions but for the most part it's true). it's not just women. how many men in real life have those perfect bodies that seem to occur anytime any hero puts on the spandex. not everyone trains like robin, nightwing, and batman, or is carved to perfection from marble like wonder woman.

besides, being gay myself, i don't take offense to the way these people are drawn. really, there's no standard and by saying that these beautiful women don't accurately portray lesbian you're basically telling me to go to my lesbian friends who are absolutely gorgeous that they should gain some weight and become slightly more average looking because they don't represent the rest of the people with the same sexual orientation. that's absurd.

[avery]

Originally Posted by darkpiece150

Really? I'm gay and I liked Sunfire's lesbianism. It made me want to read more, besides other great reasons. I also read Green Arrow, loved his Red Hood stuff quite a lot (being a Jason Todd fan), and I though Super/Shaz was fantastic. I also apologize for my hidden agenda comment. It's just a very common thing I see.

I thought the Outsiders stuff was more secretive in feeling then creepy. Icky though...?

I'm looking foward to more of the 52 going on's between Mont and Batwomen, and I hope they continue to go into it after 52. But, if they don't right away then no biggie.

Naw it's cool I reread my post and I did come across as the usual newsarama bitchmeiser. I gotta be honest when the gay stuff happened in Outsiders I felt like a comic I enjoy was turning into a cheesy skinamax film. Judd can do way better.

[JAGII]

Originally Posted by Drink

I think what JAGII was trying to say in terms of "Real women" being portrayed is that in the comics, all the lesbians are portrayed as buxom supermodel types. Well, all Female characters are really, but that in of itself is a criticism.

It's the idea that it's essentially an excuse to show beautiful women making out with one another, which isn't all that common of a portrayal of any relationship outside of the porn industry.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm getting at. And I don't want to accuse Winnick of doing that, at least on purpose, but I do think its something people need to be aware of.

[Alextron]

Well, if Woman with superpowers can take time off of doing their hair and talking on the telephone, perhaps they could fight crime. Though I certainly wouldn't let some so emotional drive a car, much less have super powers!