THE GUYS BEHIND THE FIST: BRUBAKER & FRACTION TALK IRON FIST

[MattBrady]

We’ve been slowly catching up with Ed Brubaker, talking to him about Daredevil, Uncanny X-Men, and Criminal. For his next book, however, we faced a quandary. Obviously, that next book would be Immortal Iron Fist, which he co-writes with Matt Fraction. Should we just interview Ed and leave Matt feeling slighted? Interview both, and then have Matt wonder why we didn’t immediately want to talk to him about his other books? Skip Iron Fist?

Well, with confidence we can say, that when we were presented with this baby, we sliced the sucker clean through, right in the middle. We stepped back, and let Ed and Matt interview each other.

Newsarama Note: Images are from last week’s Immortal Iron Fist #3.

Ed Brubaker: Were you surprised when I asked you to work on Iron Fist with me? Because when they told me I needed a co-writer to fit it in, I immediately thought of you, but I wasn't sure why. I guess I just assumed that you had a love of Hong Kong Fooey and that even if you hadn't read the old series, that angle would intrigue you. But, were you surprised to get that call?

Matt Fraction: I was, only in that-- while we'd talked a good bit, it was just... I mean, it's a flattering thing, you know? Incredibly gratifying. Being asked to co-write with a guy whose work I've really loved for a long time did wonderful things for my already unmanageable ego. It's
funny, too, because I'd never considered pitching or writing an Iron First book until you asked me-- and then it made almost immediate sense. Like, by the time I got off that first phone call with you, I just knew in my gut the kind of book we were gonna do.

Didn't you ask Kirkman first?

EB: Oh... Awkward.... Um.

No, no I sure didn't.

MF: That's okay. He doesn't love you like I love you.

So, what about you? You always loved Iron Fist, right? Like, Cap, the X-Men... all of these were just stepping stones for you on the road to Danny Rand, right?

EB: Not Cap, but yeah, the X-Men were definitely a stepping stone to Iron Fist.

In all seriousness, though, Iron Fist was always a favorite, just as Cap was, when I was a kid. I don't know exactly why, but I know they were each among the first characters I ever bought and latched onto. A lot of my ideas for Iron Fist come from things I thought I remembered in the old Iron Fist and Marvel Premiere issues that isn't actually there now that I've gone back and reread them a few times. Still, I always planned on getting my hands on Iron Fist and trying to do something cool with him. I guess I just dug the mystic Kung Fu hero in the city. It feels so ‘70s now, but when I think about what I want us to do on Iron Fist, I often think of the ‘70s era blaxploitation and kung fu movies.

MF: There should be a name for that-- when you remember something as being cooler than it actually is. Oh! Wait. I think that's just 'nostalgia.' It's an easy book to be nostalgic for, I think. There's tons of great stuff in there, tons of awesome mythology just lying around with the golden booties and the broccoli monsters and all that not so great stuff... like, the core of the character, the core of what you remember and cling on to is precisely as awesome as you remember. We selectively edit out the dumb stuff; it gets scraped off like a cluster of barnacles or something. Barnacles of stupid.

And yeah, when you first talked to me, the book was just... like, I got it, right away, I got the book we needed to do. The vibe was just there-- the best of that grindhouse era with a modern sensibility, and all of it wrapped around KUNG FU BILLIONAIRE which is just, like, the perfect comics character.

EB: Milan Kundera said "*nostalgia* does not heighten memory's activity, it does not awaken recollections; it suffices unto itself," and it's something that shrinks will always tell you, too. That when you miss someone you used to love, you're not missing them as much as you're missing the way you felt then. That's a form of nostalgia, too. And rereading old comics from when you're a kid has that same feeling. You're wrapped in the warmth of those simpler times. I think that's why I wanted to do Iron Fist in the first place, because it reminded me of living in Gitmo as a kid, before it was a detention center, when it was just the smallest town in the world. A few hundred kids and a PX full of comics.

Okay, so I guess there was no question in your last question, so I'll go again. You mentioned our selectively editing out the dumber stuff, which is what I like to call "streamlining continuity." You take all the contradicting parts of the history - like the three different versions of how Danny's dad is related to Yu-Ti - and figure out which one makes the most sense, and go with that. But with Iron Fist, and the various legends of Kun Lun there's so many weird things that have been explained over the years that seem to make almost no sense. Or at least be the kind of reveals that take away any investment you had in the character. Do you have any problem jettisoning stuff like that? This is your first time pulling that trigger after all.

MF: Wow, you're right, there wasn’t a question there...! I come from the Basement Tapes tradition of back-and-forth, where questions were are privilege and not a right... Also, I think you should get half a prop for bringing Milan Kundera up in a conversation about Iron Fist.

I guess the easy answer is no, to tell you the truth, I don't have any trouble streamlining continuity as long as it's in service to the character's core, and not to serve my own, uh, story or character fetish or whatever. Like jettisoning 10 years of established stories because I want to do it my way-- that whole Spider-Man Chapter One thing, where you're retconning really recent work because you think you know best-- that strikes me as... I dunno, uncool? Unethical, almost? Un-polite, surely. I want to build on top of what's come before and not necessarily demolish it to make way for my ideas. What's important to me is remaining true to the heart and soul of the character, of the property, of the idea. I think Morrison called it "superconsistency"? I'm sure somewhere someone is infuriated that, four issues in, we haven't shown the Deadly Broccoli People of K'un L'un or whomever, but I feel like it's our job to write the best Iron Fist book we can, period. That means celebrating the character's legacy but understanding that the nature of sequential serial fiction is malleable and shifting... just like time itself in comics... and that means not each and every single panel stands the test of time. And understanding that what was awesome (?) in 1982 isn't maybe quite so awesome at all now. It means critically analyzing your nostalgia and honing the thing into a sharpened piece of steel.

So let me reframe the question to you, being the guy that brought back Bucky: having a great fondness for this book on the one hand, and a complete willingness to topple the status quo on the other-- how do you feel about what we've honoring or omitting or revising? Do you feel that nagging fan's loyalty to concepts that maybe don't work so well anymore?

EB: No. I think basically the same way you do about that. I have a tendency to just not discuss aspects of continuity or conflicted history in my books, though. If there's some bit that doesn't make sense, or that just feels false to me -- as much of the K’un L’un stuff from Power Man and Iron Fist does -- I try to write around it, so it's not as if I'm saying it's not continuity, I'm just saying it's not important to the story at hand. Of course, there are huge things in Iron Fist that we're sort of revamping, such as exploring the previous Iron Fists. But even in that, I think we're trying to stay true to the heart of the character and the history that has been established. I think they got a little too complicated with explaining all the minutia of K’un L’un at some point, and tied it down to some pretty goofy ideas of who the dragon is, and why the city was there, though, and we're just ignoring or retconning that stuff. And I feel nothing but good about it, because the worst thing a writer can do is tie themselves down to a bad idea when they can fix it, instead.

So, Iron Fist -- what's coming up next? Are we gonna see Danny and Misty knocking boots?

MF: I've been trying to get those two into bed since the second issue! The Immortal Iron Fist #7 is wall-to-wall ballin'. BIG ballin'! DEEEEP! You heard it here FIRST, true believers!

Wait, what?

I can't wait to get to Misty and Danny trying to evaluate their relationship in the wake of Civil War. I think they're such a crazy, fun couple and that they're on opposite sides of this big ideological debate seems the kind of thing that lets you explore your characters in a kind of different way than what most superhero comics tend to do... like, I wouldn't mind taking their relationship through a dark, kind of ugly place where they stay together even though they kind of hate what the other has become. Psychologically that's a lot more interesting to me than to have them be just lovey-dovey or that kind of dumbass Ross and Rachel thing.

More history. There's the one-off stand alone issue that focuses on the Pirate Queen that everybody went bonkers over. The second storyline, which is like the first, only bigger, better, more interesting, more dangerous, and 718% more awesome.

What are you most looking forward to on the horizon?

EB: The next arc, and the detailing of Orson Randall's history with Danny's family. That stuff really came together nicely, and I think fits with the pulp-adventure style that we're going for. And the second arc is going to kick so much ass, yeah. Globetrotting kung fu ridiculousness mixed with corporate espionage and cataclysmic evil bad guys. It's a dream.

So, let's talk about David Aja a bit. Is it just me, or is he getting way better with each issue?

MF: I love Kung Fu Shadow. Between my bits, your bits, Travel's bits, Matt's bits, and--to get to your question-- David's bits, I can read every issue and feel a kind of other-ness to it that I don't feel about anything else I work on... I think everybody's bringing so much that I have a kind of disconnect, emotionally, and I can read the issue with brand new eyes when it comes out... the thing reads to me like a team effort, and I'm such fans of all you guys that every issue is a joy.

And David is a big, big part of that. I've never worked with someone so willfully experimental, so studious, and so... he's so good he makes me up my game, you know? He's so good I want to write harder, write better. I want to break him, I want to crack him in half, I want to know I can outsmart him, just once. I love what he brings to the page. He's like David Mazzuchelli reborn in the pulp tradition. He's actually fun to write for. Every time I get to plan a big David scene, I grin from ear to ear.

To say nothing of Travel's enormous contributions so far, or our phenomenal guest artists (Mr. John Severin, Mr. Russ Heath, et al). So check out my cool segway: we've got these amazing talents handling the flashback stuff which, if you'll think back to our first conversations, kind of the narrative key to our attack. Tell me about what you remember as a kid about this, about where the idea came from, and about how you set out planning the kinds of scenes and set-pieces for our glorious guest artists to handle.

EB: You know, I never really thought about it too much until we started working. I just always remembered that scene where young Davos or Danny (I can't recall which it was) is shown the costume of the Iron Fist behind glass and told, "this is the garb of the Immortal Iron Fist." And in my imagination, I saw an Iron Fist fighting off invading hordes, and fighting dragons, long long ago. And of course, the Golden Age Iron Fist, as we've dubbed Orson - even though he's way pre-Golden Age, really -- in my mind, I just saw these tragic scenes of death and depression and this guy just wasting away. Like a Hemingway character who doesn't die, but just gets further and further lost in memory and drug haze. To get John Severin and Russ Heath to draw these scenes so far blew my mind, and it taught me something great about our editor -- he'll call anyone and ask them to work on this book.

MF: Let's see if we can convince him to call Steve Ditko.

[PhoenixFacto]

I'd never read iron fist before, but based on the strenght of cap and uncanny, i picked this up and love it every month. danny rand is a great character and its time he shined like one. Props to you both. Also loving punisher war journal too.

[nietoperz]

Could the title of this article not be: Newsarama invites Brubaker and Fraction to Fist each other?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[HeX111]

I love this book...

[Vijinand]

I love this book! I've always been intrigued by the idea of Iron Fist, but I've never bought any of his solo books until now. Plus these guys seem really excited about writing this book. I haven't seen any sales figures on it, but I hope this books continues for a loooong time!

[Ace]

Most things I buy off my shelf, but Iron Fist I put on my pull. It needs the support and I love it deeply already.

[vicvondoom]

One of Marvel's best books imo.

[McGuirk]

I hope this becomes an ongoing feature here. Like the insight into the future and what goes on to make this book as good as it is, by all parties involved.

[ender2814]

Originally Posted by McGuirk

I hope this becomes an ongoing feature here. Like the insight into the future and what goes on to make this book as good as it is, by all parties involved.

I mean, I like Brubaker and Fraction and all, but I don't think I would want to read them interview each other all the time.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by nietoperz

Could the title of this article not be: Newsarama invites Brubaker and Fraction to Fist each other?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Bah-ha-hah! I almost spit my coffee out at that one, good show!

[Big Red]

I highly recommend it to anyone.

[C. The B.B.C]

No doubt, through Punisher War Journal, Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel and so many other characters who we saw regain their regular series last year, The Immortal Iron Fist is by far and large the very best one.
If this creative team stays in place or only changes slightly in the forseeable future (though it's something I absolutely do not wish), I'll keep buying it and telling whoever wants to hear me to buy it as well. Just an amazing, love-filled effort by all of those involved, and it really shows.

[s*p rules]

Great, great book so far.

I was having an argument with a friend the other day about coaches in pro sports. I argued that sure, any coach like Pat Riley or Phil Jackson who has a plethora of future hall-of-famers on his team can get to the playoffs or even win championships. To me, a great coach is one that can take a team of no-bodies or has-beens and kick ass.

Same concept with some comic writers: any writer on X-men or Superman will have strong sales and passionate fans. Hell, even Chuck Austen's books sold well and had people talking (for better or worse). But when a writer (writers, in this case) can take a b-list character like Iron Fist and have him star in one of the best books on the market, filled with great stories, dialogue, and supporting cast, well, that's gold, Jerry. Kudos.

Looking forward to the time when Marvel just gives Brubaker all their titles so that he can fix the unbelievable mess that is the Marvel U. post-Civil War.

[Dragavon]

Originally Posted by nietoperz

Could the title of this article not be: Newsarama invites Brubaker and Fraction to Fist each other?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Now that was some funny ____.

[Colonsus]

Great interview!

This series rocks the hizzouse!

Can't WAIT for the next issue!

[Ye Olde Iowa]

I considered picking this one up, but my pull list has been swelling and my life expenses have been too, so I couldn't justify it. Does anyone know if this is going to be collected as a trade? With all of this praise, it seems like I'm really missing out.

[bigdaddyhub]

Originally Posted by Ye Olde Iowa

I considered picking this one up, but my pull list has been swelling and my life expenses have been too, so I couldn't justify it. Does anyone know if this is going to be collected as a trade? With all of this praise, it seems like I'm really missing out.

You really are missing out if you aren't reading this book. It has become my most anticipated read. Of course, Brubaker could write "Cosmic Cow Turds" and I would put down my 2.99 without thinking twice.

I love the art, I love the pacing of the writing. It is just a perfect hand and glove kind of fit for this book. The same with the Cap line. The thing I was most frustrated with the CW event was that it seemed to interrupt Bru's Cap story, but even then he is able to work around it.

[OcCaM]

Originally Posted by Ye Olde Iowa

I considered picking this one up, but my pull list has been swelling and my life expenses have been too, so I couldn't justify it. Does anyone know if this is going to be collected as a trade? With all of this praise, it seems like I'm really missing out.

Since I buy all my Marvel is tpb basically I can easily guarantee you this will be collected in some format or another.

About the only things I can recall in the last couple years that weren't collected in tpb was the Doc Samson mini and those romance comics from LAST Feb.

So, it's a safe bet that an ongoing with great a creative team and some critical buzz going will probably get a Premiere HC first. But, Daredevil only got a tpb so who knows?

Great to see all this love for my favorite character. Too bad he's had SOOOOOOOOOOO many bad series (pretty much everything except his original run with Byrne art) that it's an uphill battle to get the word out that this series rocks the house!

Maybe, more Cap and Uncanny fans will flock to this because of Bru. I refuse to reciprocate though as I hate Cap and nothing will change that! (And yes since Marvel was kind enough to put #7 and #18 for free on Marvel.com I have read at least those 2 issues. For the record I love Nomad and Union Jack but not Cap, and I was still sortof bored with those 2 issues, well written though they were!) Anyway, even though I will not reciprocate I still expect all those Cap. fans to buy this!

[Ace]

Originally Posted by OcCaM

Maybe, more Cap and Uncanny fans will flock to this because of Bru. I refuse to reciprocate though as I hate Cap and nothing will change that! (And yes since Marvel was kind enough to put #7 and #18 for free on Marvel.com I have read at least those 2 issues. For the record I love Nomad and Union Jack but not Cap, and I was still sortof bored with those 2 issues, well written though they were!) Anyway, even though I will not reciprocate I still expect all those Cap. fans to buy this!

Tell ya what, friend.

You can give Criminal a shot instead.

[melperfect]

Nice deserved shot at the awful Spider-Man Chapter One.

This sucks. Iron Fist is one of the books on an unfortunately long list of titles that I want, but won't be getting due to a drastically slashed pull list. My wife's due with our 1st child in about a month, so I cut my list down to 10-12 books a month to help save $$$. I was able to read a buddy's copy of issue 1 and really liked it too.

I'll catch up with a trade or 2 sometime down the line.

[The 'Nam]

I really enjoy this book, but I feel that, with 2 writers and 2 artists, it's gonna lose its focus somewhere down the line. I would like to see it streamlined a bit, with a single creative team.

As it stands though, to make a normal-sized book with essentially 2 creative teams, is pretty impressive. I just worry about about the future.

Still, pretty damn good book for a character I usually wouldn't have much interest in.

About the only things I can recall in the last couple years that weren't collected in tpb was the Doc Samson mini and those romance comics from LAST Feb.

Actually, I think those romance comics just got collected, just in time for this February.

[Del Gorky]

This is the type of content that should always be on newsarama. It has some thought and depth and discusses a comic worth looking at. Marvel has done a very poor job of promoting The Immortal Iron Fist but it is one of the two or three best comics they publish. Do yourself a favor and pick them up if you haven't already. It's easily better than X-men, Civil War, and all of the Spider-man comics. It's hard to believe the same company that publishes this also is responsible for Onlsaught: Reborn.

[OcCaM]

Originally Posted by Ace

Tell ya what, friend.

You can give Criminal a shot instead.

Sorry not a genre I'm interested in.

(I'm sure it's VERY well-written though!)

[spacekicker]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFacto

I'd never read iron fist before, but based on the strenght of cap and uncanny, i picked this up and love it every month. danny rand is a great character and its time he shined like one. Props to you both. Also loving punisher war journal too.

this is a great book, and you are right though. Punisher War Journal is FANTASTIC!

[OcCaM]

Originally Posted by The 'Nam

Actually, I think those romance comics just got collected, just in time for this February.

Should have clarified as the interest was low enough on both of the series of romance comics marvel did last year to easily confuse the two. (Esp. as most people have short memories anyway!)

There were two Marvel romance series last year. One of those Marvel event things that had 5 romance comics set in the Marvel U. THOSE are what I meant as uncollected.

There was another series where they took old romance comics of Marvel yesteryear and re-did the dialogue ala Mystery Science Theatre 3000 and came up with some spoof comics. THOSE are what they collected in tpb.

So, even though those were old comics that had re-done dialogue and played for laughs they still get collected but straight up romance comics with Marvel characters still weren't good enough to get a tpb.

Yep, romance is dead in the Marvel U.! Bring on Civil Bore Part 2!