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02-22-2007, 01:07 AM
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CIVIL WAR ROOM #7: TALKING TO TOM BREVOORT
 It’s all over, and, apparently, the shouting is still going on. Marvel’s Civil War may have wrapped up this week with issue #7, but the jibber-jabber, as the great philosopher Mr. T put it, will be going on for ages. Into all of this mix, let’s add one more voice – that of Civil War Editor Tom Brevoort as we enter our final Civil War Room. And obviously - SPOILERS AHEAD. Newsarama: Big picture, before we get into specifics, Tom - a little while back, you said, of the then-impending ending, that it may not be the ending people wanted, but it's the ending they need. Now that we've all seen the ending, can you explain what you said a little - comparing what you felt people wanted with what was in #7? Tom Brevoort: I think it’s the nature of line-wide crossovers for fans to become excited—over-excited, really—and start expecting more and greater inter-continuity than was ever planned for. I can’t tell you how many e-mails I got over the course of Civil War postulating that, in the final issue, the Annihilation Wave from Annihilation was going to show up and force the heroes of both sides to fight together. This despite the fact that we’ve been saying from the beginning that Anniilation and Civil War were completely separate events. But fans get excited and want the biggest thing ever, and that’s the biggest thing they could imagine right now. But at the end of the day, Civil War is a story, and a story about some very specific ideas, so the ending needed to revolve around those ideas and the two heroes—Cap and Iron Man—who had come to represent the dueling ideologies. But I can write the reviews right now: “That’s it? All that hype for nothing? Nobody died??!!” I know where everything is going down the line, though, so I’ve got a bit more excitement for it than perhaps the average reader does right this second. NRAMA: Was the ending seen in #7 always the final ending, from the pitch stage to now? Any insight on some of the other ideas that were shot down early on? TB: Yes, pretty much. At the very outset, in the initial discussions (back when Mark was thinking of Civil War as 12 issues, rather than the 7 it became) there was a whole other plot thread that got dropped along the way. But in the Civil War planning sheet that got sent to the other editorial offices and to the writers, dated 12/2/05, this is what it said: CIVIL WAR #7 -- SPECTACULAR fight. One by one, the guys go down until we’re left with just Cap and Tony -- Cap, exhausted, finally puts Tony down in the cleverest way possible. It’s over. -- He looks around at the crowds assembled on the edge of town and he sees something he’s never seen before: Fear. Cap inspires hope and yet here he is terrifying the locals. They start to yell at him, voicing everything we’ve seen in the background throughout the series about how they WANT a register and need to be protected from lunatics in masks doing whatever they want; completely unaccountable vigilantes. -- Cap realizes he was wrong. He realizes he’s been fighting for masks when he should have been fighting for America -- Cap concedes that the people do want superheroes to go legit. His big problem is liberties being taken away by people he doesn’t know and can’t trust and so he says to Tony that he and his guys will ACCEPT the registration on one simple condition: That it isn’t the government that holds all the secrets. Sure, the person in charge can be accountable to the government, but he wants a super hero to be in charge of this. The person he wants, the person he trusts most, is Tony. -- Cut to a series of epilogues where we get the new Marvel Universe being constructed here. Tony Stark now heads up HAMMER as well as supervising the new hero teams. NRAMA: Can you sketch out Cap's larger battle plan here - there seemed to be a set course of events that needed to be followed - free the heroes in 42, engage Iron Man, get to New York, where Namor would join the battle. That about right? TB: I don’t think Cap’s initial battle plan was all that much larger than break into the Negative Zone prison, free those incarcerated there, and get out. Becoming aware that Iron Man and his forces would be waiting for him, he may have made provisions for Namor and his troops to be on hand. But from Cap’s point of view, this wasn’t necessarily intended to be the last engagement of the war, I don’t think. And Cap’s larger goal has always been to continue to do his job, and to aid others in being able to do theirs, despite the new legislation, so the situation he’s struggling against can’t truly be solved by any amount of smacking Iron Man’s head in. NRAMA: And Iron Man's strategy? It seems that both had aces up their sleeves if they showed back up on earth... TB: Iron Man’s ace was more a general contingency, though—the heroes he and his cohorts had been commissioning for the Fifty State Initiative. I don’t think he intended or even wanted to field them just yet. If he did, then he’d have brought them along to the big ambush in the Negative Zone. However, the mandate of the Initiative at its simplest is to safeguard the citizens of the nation, so when the battle spills over into Manhattan, it’s only natural that he’d call these guys in, entirely ready or not. NRAMA: That said, what was Cap's overall plan in a final fight scenario? The longer Iron Man and the Pro Registration side had to present their case to the public, as well as show the benefits (lower crime, etc) of such a plan, Cap was losing ground in the court of popular opinion. Was there ever a way for them to "win" against the Pro-Reg side? TB: The only real way for Cap and his guys to “win” in a macro sense would be to change popular opinion to such a degree that the Registration legislation was repealed. But really, Cap’s day-to-day goal was simply to continue to defend the country and battle evil, and aid other like-minded individuals in doing so. Cap’s more a soldier than a legislator or a politician, so he was focused primarily on the day-to-day mission. If Cap had to continue his struggle as a “guerilla super hero” for five, ten or twenty years, I expect he’d have been ready to do so, to make that sacrifice. NRAMA: So - take us inside Cap's head then - why was he fighting? As we saw at the end, even he seemed to have lost the reason, saying they were "just fighting" to fight, apparently. In your view, when did he lose sight of the reason for the fight? TB: Cap was fighting for a principle, for a belief in the sanctity of the personal freedoms of his fellow super heroes. And he was fighting in what amounted to a large act of civil disobedience, in the manner of the founding fathers, or of the civil rights activists of the 1960s. Cap’s goal wasn’t the struggle—it was in being able to continue to do the job despite the increased difficulty and the additional restrictions in doing so. I think that, if he lost sight of his true goals, it was in getting caught up in the escalation of hostilities with Iron Man and his guys—that it became more personal after the battle that cost the life of Bill Foster, and that caused Cap to perhaps put less of his energies into upholding the public good, and more thought and effort into taking down Iron Man. NRAMA: Could you say, or could it be said that Cap made a mistake in all of this? Was there a better way for his side to fight Registration rather than fighting? TB: Some have argued that Cap’s first mistake was made in the first issue, by choosing to go on the run in defiance of the Registration Act, rather than conducting his efforts within the court of public opinion, either through the media or through his connections in government. In fairness to Cap, though, I don’t think he expected this to go on for so long, nor for tempers to get so heated along the way. NRAMA: Fair enough. On to the more detail-y things... Just for those who took the "you don't have to read the tie-ins to get the full story" thing literally, why's Bishop fighting on the Pro-Registration side? He came from a world where mutants were hunted...old habits die hard? TB: Bishop did come from such a world, but in that era, he was a cop, charged with policing the other mutants of that time. He believes in the tenets of the law, and in policing your own, so from his point of view, Iron Man’s stance made perfect sense to him. NRAMA: And just to touch upon the rest of that - the rest of the X-Men - they totally sat this out, right? TB: Other than Wolverine, yes. They’ve been busy elsewhere, though, bopping through the Shi’ar galaxy, fighting the Children of the Vault and dancing around with the Hellfire Club. NRAMA: Cloak's powers - why did he need the coordinates to get from 42 to Manhattan? He'd been near the Baxter Building before, so couldn't he just zap everyone there from memory? TB: Cloak’s never teleported from the Negative Zone to the positive matter universe before, and nobody was quite sure he’d be able to do it, least of all himself. The coordinates at least gave him something to home in on. But using Cloak’s powers was a Hail Mary on the part of Cap’s guys—their escape plan always involved using one of the two gateways to escape, and it’s only when both those gateways are shut down before they can withdraw that they resort to trying to use Cloak’s powers to accomplish the same thing. NRAMA: Got it – and Wonder Man punching out Cloak - for "screwing up the plan" - meaning that the plan was to contain the fight to 42, and then put the losers (Anti-Reg) in cells, dust off hands and call it a day? TB: More or less, yes. At the very least, the plan was to contain any sort of struggle to the Negative Zone, in order to minimize the potential for civilian casualties and property damage. NRAMA: We've seen heroes fight heroes before in the Marvel Universe, and even here - there seems to always be the calls of “Stand down!” and "I'm not trying to hurt you!" But here - not so much. In your view, these are friends fighting friends - not very heroic and not very...friendly - why are we seeing such a bloodlust, for lack of a better word? TB: I think it’s the stress of the situation, heroes on both sides having to live in this “state of war” for weeks and months on end. The same type of fatigue can happen in troops stationed in the field for too long. This whole period hasn’t been easy on any of these characters, regardless of what side they happen to be fighting on, and the death of Goliath has become a flash-point between the two sides—remember, this is the first full-scale engagement between the opposing camps since that event happened. NRAMA: True, but is that savage nature of the fight a visual and storytelling shorthand for the depth of the schism that Registration has caused? TB: To a certain degree. The metaphoric issues that Civil War is built upon aren’t easily answered, and finding common ground between people on all sides of these issues has proven to be extremely difficult in the real world. So why should our heroes have it any easier? NRAMA: The bus in the Cap fight scene - is it safe to assume that Iron Man was on The Colbert Report in the Marvel Universe? TB: It’s safe to assume that [Colorist] Morry Hollowell is a fan, at least. NRAMA: Again, for those perhaps not catching all the side stories - why did Namor join with cap's side? Last time we saw him in #6, he was pretty down on the idea...at the very least not implying that he’d be coming in with an army… TB: Cap asked him, simple as that. He may have been petulant about it, he may have hemmed and hawed and claimed that he wasn’t going to do it, but at the end of the day, Captain America has been Namor’s friend and ally since World War Two. Everything Namor tells Sue in #6 is essentially true, but nevertheless, when Cap calls for help, Namor comes. NRAMA: Going back to the idea of casualties - do Atlanteans fight to subdue that often, or are they fighting to kill? TB: While they may look like barbarians, Atlanteans aren’t actually barbarians, so it’s possible that they’re exercising restraint in their attack. By that same token, the Atlanteans have a culture that’s completely different from ours, so their concepts of right and wrong, justice and vengeance, good and evil are likely markedly different from our own. NRAMA: Clor and the heroes of The Initiative - care to name check the new heroes? TB: That’s Thor, Captain Mar-Vell and the Champions, whom we caught a glimpse of in #6. But I think I’ll wait until the Champions project is unveiled at the New York Comic Con this weekend before saying any more. NRAMA: You tease, you. Back to the fighting, it’s probably worthwhile to point out Ben's actions here - his bus is knocking down both Pro and Anti fighters...meaning? TB: Ben isn’t fighting on either side, but is fighting to protect and shield the bystanders. Among all the heroes who’ve lost their cool in the thick of things, Ben is the only person to remember the little guy. NRAMA: And, being a touch anal, also worthwhile to point out - Hercules picking up Clor's hammer - that's possible because? TB: The hammer is mechanical, as we saw back in issue #4, where it was opened up. It’s not enchanted, just really heavy and filled with the technology Thor uses to throw thunderbolts. And Hercules is a pretty strong guy. NRAMA: Side title time - Tony's down, and this time, Cap DOESN'T pause... what would the story of What If?: Civil War be like, in broad strokes? TB: The Annihilation Wave shows up, the heroes all join together to fight it, and peace and harmony reigns. But Iron Man is killed, and maybe Cap too. Heck, maybe Reed and Hank and Mary Jane and Aunt May as well. And then the Winter Soldier becomes Iron Man and Hawkeye becomes Captain America because, hey, nobody’d expect that to happen. And it’s all a plot by Miriam Sharpe in her true persona as Loki! Luckily, they’re all Skrulls, so everything goes back to normal in a few months. NRAMA: Yeah – that will pass with no comment. Okay – back to what happened, as it became the focal point of the entire conflict - straight up - were there civilian casualties in this fight? Looking at the damage, and knowing that there was a push to remove people from the location by rescue workers, Iron Man's side and Ben...still...not at least one old lady who refused to leave without her cats that bought it? NRAMA: Over in Front Line #11, there’s a statistic given of fifty-three dead, six of whom were costumed super-powered individuals. NRAMA: “They're not arresting Captain America, they're arresting Steve Rogers - that's a very different thing." How so? He's revealed his identity before; the world knows that Captain America IS Steve Rogers... TB: Captain America is a symbol. Steve Rogers is an individual. NRAMA: Fair enough, but following on the Cap thread, of all people, why have the Punisher pick up Cap's mask? Does he still have that man-crush thing for him? TB: So it would seem. You’ll find out more in Punisher War Journal in a couple months’ time. NRAMA: Take us through Cap's surrender a little - were all the heroes on his side given amnesty if they wanted it, or just the limited number as mentioned in #6? TB: Presuming that they agreed to register, there was a general amnesty granted for all dissenting super heroes, as Reed indicates in his letter. NRAMA: Basic level - those who did not take the amnesty offer - what does this mean for them? Arrest on sight? Are they criminals in the eyes of the law? TB: The folks who didn’t take the amnesty are still in the same state they were in before the battle: they’re Federal fugitives, operating illegally as unlicensed vigilantes. So yes, they’re criminals, and must operate as wanted men. NRAMA: The Texas Initiative team - those are the Rangers, right? Can you give us names for those who may not know all the faces? TB: Yes, those are the Rangers, who’ll be showing up again in Avengers: The Initiative #2. Red Wolf, Shooting Star, Phantom Rider, Texas Twister and Firebird, with Armadillo in the background. NRAMA: Seeing Taskmaster and Lady Deathstryke going into 42 - is it safe to assume that all of the individuals who make up the new Thunderbolts team initially went into 42, with some being fished out by Obsorn as he saw fit? TB: No, not necessarily. Lady Deathstryke and Taskmaster being incarcerated indicates that they’re among the one or two “nutcases” that had to be cut from the program after their public showing during the battle in this issue. NRAMA: But also - just to confirm what Reed's letter seems to indicate - 42 is being kept open, but this time, as a prison for supervillains? TB: Yes, which was what it was designed for in the first place. NRAMA: Editorially, how will that be reflected throughout the Marvel Universe? Will we see villains being taken off the board for longer periods of time? TB: Yes, you’ll see the Negative Zone prison again, but only being used to incarcerate the most powerful and most dangerous villains—the guys for whom no ordinary prison will do. For most run-of-the-mill super-villains, there’ll still be the Raft and Ryker’s Island. NRAMA: Is Mar-Vell still the warden of 42? TB: So far as we know—it all depends on where he turns up next. NRAMA: Reed's assessment of Omega Flight - he said it's more of an Old School approach. Does that mean that Canada hasn't passed a version of the Registration Act? These guys are allowed to operate freely, and without oversight? TB: I’m going to leave that question for Omega Flight to answer—though people can begin to get a sense of things in the Civil War: The Initiative one-shot and in Ms. Marvel #14. NRAMA: Hank and T'Challa on the cover of Marvel's Time Magazine - any insight as to what they were agreeing to or celebrating? TB: Hank was named Man Of The Year for his contributions to this new operating structure for super heroes, including some of the technologies that empowered the Thor cyborg, created the Champions, and that went into the Negative Zone prison. NRAMA: Back in the Baxter Building, Sue was coming home, right? TB: Yes. We’ll see more about this in Fantastic Four #543 in a few weeks. NRAMA: Up on the Helicarrier - as a government employee, should Maria Hill really be spending her time checking out the Marvel website? TB: What better place is there to check up on the status of registered or unregistered superhumans? NRAMA: Judging from her snarl, is it safe to assume that Maria's not happy with Tony's placement in SHIELD? TB: She’s probably more unhappy about being asked to get him and Miriam Sharpe a cup of coffee. NRAMA: Speaking of SHIELD, is there a mandate that at least 50% of SHIELD personnel must have facial hair? Steve's been pretty consistent with that... TB: No mandate, just a stylistic choice. Those guys have all been too busy to shave regularly during Civil War. NRAMA: Okay - into the future...where should people be checking for the straightest line that will be following the developments that Tony was taking about at the end? TB: The Civil War: The Initiative one-shot NRAMA: And for Cap? TB: Captain America #25, on sale the same week. NRAMA: For you, personally - obviously, this was a bear of a project, and now, it's wrapped. Do you have enough distance from it yet to be able to reflect a little and see how this fits in the continuum of projects you've handled over your career? TB: No, not really. It was a large-scale project, certainly more involved than House of M or Maximum Security in terms of a crossover. But it’s way too early to put it into any kind of historical context. Only time will do that. NRAMA: Far enough. Finally, in your view, what does Civil War represent for Marvel, both as a fictional universe, and as a company? TB: It’s a continuation of the kinds of themes that Marvel was founded upon, and represents a dividing line between the way-things-used-to-be and the way-things-will-be-going –forward. |
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02-22-2007, 09:23 AM
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#2 |
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This was a joke.
It should've been called the contrivance war. Really, this had the potential to be a lot better instead it relied heavily on controversial events and too many tie-ins to get an effective story. Too many elements feel like they just happened to spark interest A sales success, yes, but it's also the worst living Marvel crossover in memory. |
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02-22-2007, 09:32 AM
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#3 | |
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Hey i find it's better than Disassembled. I mean the tie ins with this were at connected with the storyline AND had a storyline that was more great than not. Disassembled had almost no true diredt tie ins and the story was awful all around. |
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02-22-2007, 09:40 AM
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#4 |
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I cannot believe they ended Civil War like this...i hate to admit it, but even though CW was a better series that IC, IC's final issue was way better...this ending suck (quite frankly because there is no ending)
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02-22-2007, 09:41 AM
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#5 |
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I guess it's the clone curse...
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02-22-2007, 09:41 AM
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#6 | |
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02-22-2007, 09:43 AM
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#7 |
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Definately the final installment for me.
I've been collecting comics since 1974 and my first purchase was an issue of Spider-Man. After reading this I deleted everything Marvel but Anita Blake from my pull list.
Basically Evil Won. Since Iron Man, Wasp, and others were certainly portrayed as evil throughout this series. The only one shot they didn't do was the one I could have gotten excited about "Northstar and Iceman Civil War: Don't Ask Don't Tell" Oh well, At least I'll have roughly an extra $140.00 for other things each month now. |
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02-22-2007, 09:47 AM
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#8 |
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Actually... I think the ending fits.
Nothing completely out of left field happened. Cap or Tony didn't die (cause you know that wouldn't last a year) so we don't have to read a ____ story about a triumphant return from the dead. My only real complaint about the entire Civil War saga is I can't read the main mini and have all the info I need to know. But other than that, I got to see crazy action drawn by McNiven, and a new status quo put in place that may or may not blow up in Marvel's faces. I didn't like how they handled the fallout of House of M, so hopefully they'll handle this one better. That's my two or three cents. |
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02-22-2007, 09:54 AM
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#9 | |||
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Well, at least reading this, I can see where they thought they were going with the series. I actually don't mind this in it's general form-- too bad the execution wasn't remotely like this. Quote:
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As for Cap's big realization-- it would've worked if this scene had been there-- Cap telling Tony that, even after everything they'd been through recently, he'd trust Tony with everyone's secret and he'd lay down to protect the people. Unfortunately, in CIVIL WAR the series, Cap does nothing but surrender. There's NO indication that he even knows Tony's being considered to head S.H.I.E.L.D. Maybe this came up in one of the 12,000 cross-overs that weren't remotely coordinated, but I had to give up on those a couple months back-- it makes my head hurt to see 2-3 things directly contradicting a story that's supposedly happening simultaneously... Overall, this series was a huge disappointment to me, if for no other reason than I think it could've been written and planned just a little better and it would've been something to look back on and see how it changed the MU for the better (or at least contributed something believable to the canon)-- instead we just got a lackluster story that shows Steve Rogers is all talk when it comes to standing up for what he believes in and for his own supposed convictions. |
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02-22-2007, 09:56 AM
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#10 |
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TB: Hank was named Man Of The Year for his contributions to this new operating structure for super heroes, including some of the technologies that empowered the Thor cyborg, created the Champions, and that went into the Negative Zone prison.
Okay, something I am confused by here...why the HELL would Time name Hank Pym man of the year for creating a cyborg that KILLED people, specifically Bill Foster, who had been one of Hank's best friends before? You're telling me that one scientist got recognition and aplomb for creating technology that was used in the MURDER of another scientist? That makes no sense at all and seems like reaching for me... |
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02-22-2007, 09:58 AM
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#11 |
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Too many tie ins and not much continuity between all of them. The Spidermans were all screwed up with continuity problems. Even with the delays and mega crossovers, this series fell WAY short of expectations.
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02-22-2007, 10:00 AM
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#12 |
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This was one of the worst finales....EVER. This serious was just plain bad as whole. Sorry.
Civil War#1-#7---20.93(Total waste of my money--and I buy over 70 books a month.) The Return......should be.....well returnable. Dear Hulk upon your return to 616--please, please SMASH. Last edited by PreCrisisDC : 02-22-2007 at 10:03 AM. |
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02-22-2007, 10:01 AM
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#13 | |
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Can I say that he was for the war before he was against it? |
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02-22-2007, 10:02 AM
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#14 | |
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As someone who posted such a theory here - that Sharpe was "influencing" Tony to orchestrate all this - let me say that I'm GLAD to be proven wrong. I'm glad that Marvel made this about Cap and Tony and their ideologies. Having re-read the issue, I feel like its a great conclusion. It may be a tough one for some fans to wrap their head around because it isn't as simple or gratifying as Cap unmasking Tony as a Skrull and restoring the status quo. For whatever faults CW may have, I credit Marvel for going with a tougher ending here. Some may balk but I think it's a daring move. This ending made me much more of a fan of CW than I thought I would be as of #6. |
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02-22-2007, 10:05 AM
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#15 |
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Note to Mark Millar:
Reed Richards is not Rain Man. Also, Reed Richards IS Old School, which means he does not use the phrase "old school."  At least Herc and Spider-Man got a great moment each, even if the moments were marred by incredibly cheesy dialogue. |
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02-22-2007, 10:08 AM
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#16 | |
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02-22-2007, 10:09 AM
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#17 |
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Since Spider-Man already registered when he was on Iron Man's side, does that make him an unlisenced hero or not? I know he faught with the pro-team for a bit, but if he registered, he should be legal.
hopefully that will be cleared up at some point |
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02-22-2007, 10:10 AM
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#18 |
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Its all Cloak's fault!
If he'd teleported them to a mountain, desert or the wilderness the end would have been different. |
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02-22-2007, 10:13 AM
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#19 |
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Yeah Matt why didn't you ask him what part of this masterpiece was Joss idea? Him and Joe been pushing that angle for a month now would been nice of Tom tell us what.
Tom elsewhere mention that he was going to give proof that this was the only ending they ever plan for Civil War and all we get is some lame bullet points that could beeen made up yesterday morning. Sad part that the only simlairy the end we got and the one shown here is Cap surrender. Personally I think Tom Joe and Mark should all pat their selves on the back for yet again getting some pretty pictures togather and mixing in a lot of horse crap. |
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02-22-2007, 10:13 AM
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#20 | |
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Bush was man of the year in 2000 and 2004. Hitler was man of the year in 1938, Stalin in 1939. Hank is actually a pretty appropiate choice. From time magazine - TIME Magazine has chosen a man, woman, or idea that "for better or worse, has most influenced events in the preceding year." Plus time is pretty trashy anyway if you actaully sit down and read it and then compare it to what's actually going on in the world. |
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02-22-2007, 10:15 AM
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#21 | |
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 , I just didn't buy the scene where Cap realizes he's (maybe) been in the wrong. (Also, it should be said that Tony was ALSO in the wrong.) Had we seen people scared faces and people were telling him they wanted the SRA, that's one thing. What we got was Cap being tackled by people who just wanted the fighting to stop because they were about to get killed. Not exactly the Voice of the People. And since they only tackle Cap (probably the only one they thought they could take without getting killed immediately), we're shown that even though Tony's methods, however questionable, allow him to 'win' in the end. Steve's in prison, and Tony's in charge of SHEILD. WTF... |
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02-22-2007, 10:16 AM
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#22 |
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[quote=TheUUShadow]I've been collecting comics since 1974 and my first purchase was an issue of Spider-Man. After reading this I deleted everything Marvel but Anita Blake from my pull list.
Basically Evil Won. Since Iron Man, Wasp, and others were certainly portrayed as evil throughout this series. QUOTE] So you missed the part where Captain America was behaving like a maniac and got people killed? |
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02-22-2007, 10:18 AM
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#23 | |
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Quite a change there, from that which would have been a bit more acceptable to Cap just going out like a crying b*tch and a quitter |
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02-22-2007, 10:20 AM
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#24 | |
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While unfortunate it was Foster's fault. If you start attacking a police officer, he may or may not kill you. Depending on the situation, he may not be liable. |
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02-22-2007, 10:20 AM
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#25 | |
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I couldn't have said it better myself. It seems like the current trend is to start series with good, exciting stories....and end them with complete garbage... The whole ending to #7 seemed like it was just rushed and thrown into the story. This series could and should have been so much better. After House of M, Infinite Crisis, The Other, and now this steaming pile of crap, those Marvel Masterworks and DC Archives are looking better and better.... At back then the writers understood that a storyline needed an ending as well as a beginning... |
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