THE COW FIRES BACK: TOP COW RESPONDS TO TURNER'S SUIT

**MattBrady** · 06-11-2003, 03:59 PM

As regular Newsarama readers know, every legal issue has two sides. While Michael Turner’s Aspen Comics fired off the opening salvo of what could be an ugly battle Monday, Top Cow has fired back. Newsarama has obtained a copy of Top Cow’s counterclaim, which the publisher is planning on releasing later today.

Filed in US District Court yesterday, Top Cow’s counter to Aspen’s suit contains 15 complaints, and was filed specifically against Aspen, Turner, Frank Mastromauro, and Daryl (“Talent”) Caldwell, and requests a trial. If such a trail does come to pass, the courtroom will resemble a small comics convention, given those involved, and those likely to be called as witnesses, including Top Cow employees, Turner, Wizard staff, Geoff Johns, Jeph Loeb, Diamond, and others. On second thought, maybe a convention could be built around the trial…

For the full story, click here.

JimHughs4 · 06-11-2003, 04:22 PM

Whole lot of legalese in there, but it looks like Top Cow may have a case. I'll be disappointed if it causes the death of Aspen, but I hope whoever's lying takes the fall with good grace. JH

Greg O · 06-11-2003, 04:48 PM

Wow! Sure puts things in a whole new light! Interesting to see what everyone who's been crucifying Top Cow and Matt Hawkins make of all of this apparently damning (to Turner et al) evidence?

GOD

classicist · 06-11-2003, 04:58 PM

Interesting that the contract spelled out a certain number of issues to be produced per year... seems like wishful thinking on the part of Top Cow.

As it is, though, it sounds like Turner's in for quite a beating. And he was paid a million dollars for what, 25 issues of work? Makes me wonder what the heck I spent all those years in college for.

brett · 06-11-2003, 04:59 PM

To me, this whole thing boils down to greed, greed, greed -- on everyone's part.

After reading Top Cow's side, and just by going on what they are saying, they may be legally correct or protected (what that means if Turner owns the trademark, who knows) if Turner made all those aggrements during his tenure. However, the fact that they would even draw up a legal document claiming ownership of ANYTHING that a creator creates is just plain disgusting -- if only because it goes against everything that founding father stood for when he initially left Marvel to start Image, all those years ago.

Again, what you condemn, you will one day become; and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Greed, greed, greed.

However, Michael Turner's hands aren't all that spiffy and clean either. I was at Wizard World East a couple of weeks ago. Turner had promotional material (comic, preview, whatever) for his upcoming comic and was charging $5.00 a pop for them.

FIVE DOLLARS A POP!!!!!

Now, while that may not seem like a lot (and it isn't), when a company begins promoting an upcoming product, 99% of them DON'T CHARGE for a sample. Remember, you are the one who wants ME to plunk down money for your stuff, not the other way around. You want me to try it, give us a sample -- like ALL THE OTHER COMIC COMPANIES WERE DOING -- even those who are less financially secure like DC and Marvel. I swear, it was the funniest thing! I walked over to the table and innocently took a copy of the preview. One of his diamond dogs ran after me and grabbed it out of my hand saying I have to pay for the promo! I said I didn't know, I thought promos were free, like all the other comic companies were doing. She said, 'Oh no, we make money off these.'

Greedy, greedy, greedy.

PS. All kidding aside though, while Turner's concepts are interesting, I'll give him that, all his characters are drawn exactly alike. In fact, Soulfire, Dragonfly or whatever she is called -- looks just like Fathom. Guess if I want to see any work by Turner, I'll just open a back issue of Fathom.

Michael P · 06-11-2003, 05:00 PM

If everything Top Cow claims is ture, Turner is toast.

Mr. Special ED · 06-11-2003, 05:10 PM

If, If, If, If -

The fact of the matter is that at this point all we have are claims and counter claims by both parites. Turner insists that the characters are his, and that he liscensed them out to Top Cow, Top Cow feels he turned them over to them for a lump sum of a million.

Until we see contracts, or signed notes, etc. (much like the Gaiman McFarlane case) we dont know shit.

Derek Ruiz · 06-11-2003, 05:13 PM

Okay the only thing that bothers me so far in this whole thing is Top Cow is diging there own grave with this. If they win they will always be the company that made us lose out on some really cool comics ( cause honestly who will want to buy books with this much tarnish on them). If they lose they will have a harder time getting people to trust them when they work with them. Top cow looks like that Ex girl friend that just doesn't realize its over and wants to make that ex boyfriend pay.....

I think this is going to be settled out of court with TopCow getting a precentage from the sales of Fathom\Ekos\Soulfire\. Kinda like that fat dude that put Nysnc togehter..he gets a share of whatever they do as Nysnc (man i gotta stop watching E! network and Vh1 specials but what is there to watch really really early in the morning)....

One thing I would like to know is if Turners Contract said 7 issues of fathom or seven issues of a top cow product..Cause I bet topcow had no problem getting him to do story promos and ads for their other projects and media items while he was suppose to be doing Fathom.

JAG · 06-11-2003, 05:17 PM

Matt,
Great article. This really boiled this down to the nitty-gritty. Thanks for doing this. You probably need an aspirin now, right? [Eek!]

Derek Ruiz · 06-11-2003, 05:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by brett:
[QB]

However, Michael Turner's hands aren't all that spiffy and clean either. I was at Wizard World East a couple of weeks ago. Turner had promotional material (comic, preview, whatever) for his upcoming comic and was charging $5.00 a pop for them.

FIVE DOLLARS A POP!!!!!

QB]

Wow Five that's not to bad for a first time publisher..he can't be an Marvel or DC and just give it away...sometimes you sell Promos...Someone told me they had to pay more than 10 for a Youngblood Blood Sport Promo...

So I don't see five as so bad...

saiyanspider · 06-11-2003, 05:27 PM

Well this is topcow's business practices not Images.

IMHO Mcfarlane was the first one to sell out. All this complaining he did about marvel, and from what I can see he is no better.

In regards to the TopCow Turner thing, didn't TopCow say they had an ownership interest or something? That says to me they owned maybe some of the property in exchange for taking a financial risk, but not the whole of the property. Which this is something the artist agreed to. So why is TopCow claiming full ownership?

renyan · 06-11-2003, 05:37 PM

always knew the Caldwell departure was able to become a problem. didn't knew he left 3 months before end of contract (believed it was really more like 6months before lol)

this "trademark sell" story's really strange... who could sell trademark for $1 million and forgot it... this thing really need s light.

And TC's ownership over personnal created series doesn't surprise me... that's a disguting part of contract, living only on creation's bridle

Interesting thing is that phase saying Ekos was created while Mike was at TC... contrarly to Dragonfly and Checkmate (original names) series hat wizard talked about time before mike's departure (when he was at the hospital, if I remember well), I personnaly never heard of Ekos before the "Vote for" contest...

Another thing is, if they sue Mastromauro because he is now at Aspen MLT, why not Steigerwald?

Many things are strange... on both parts. When this Trademark issue is over, all will be over I think...

Alex Segura Jr. · 06-11-2003, 05:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JAG:
Matt,
Great article. This really boiled this down to the nitty-gritty. Thanks for doing this. You probably need an aspirin now, right?

He probably needs more than that. Great story.

Alex

brett · 06-11-2003, 05:59 PM

Derek,

That bit about Top Cow being like the ex-girlfriend who just can't accept that it's over and wants to make her ex-boyfriend pay; so true.

And there ain't nothin like a woman scorned.

About 5.00 being not much for a first time publisher, well, I don't consider Turner that much of a newbie. After all, he got a cold million from Top Cow, right?

What I did find amusing is that yes, most companies at the Con weren't charging for the promo though there have been times when some companies have in fact charged for a promo such as DC with their Vertigo line. But how much did they charge? .99 cents. After all, it's a sampler.

I work in manufacturing, in publishing which means I budget, do circ, print orders, arrange & schedule printing, costs, etc. and I'll be the first to tell you it don't cost five bucks to print what Turner was promo'ing.

What I do find appalling is that his promo -- a sample -- costs readers more than the actual comic will. And the comic is a full story when the promo isn't.

That's greed.

Hdefined · 06-11-2003, 06:11 PM

Do people still buy anything from Top Cow? Why?

renyan · 06-11-2003, 06:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by brett:

About 5.00 being not much for a first time publisher, well, I don't consider Turner that much of a newbie. After all, he got a cold million from Top Cow, right?

What I did find amusing is that yes, most companies at the Con weren't charging for the promo though there have been times when some companies have in fact charged for a promo such as DC with their Vertigo line. But how much did they charge? .99 cents. After all, it's a sampler.

I work in manufacturing, in publishing which means I budget, do circ, print orders, arrange & schedule printing, costs, etc. and I'll be the first to tell you it don't cost five bucks to print what Turner was promo'ing.

What I do find appalling is that his promo -- a sample -- costs readers more than the actual comic will. And the comic is a full story when the promo isn't.

That's greed.

My advice is that it's easier to GIVE really freely a promo when the only book we can sell is on comic stores, and not retained in distributor's office... when there's a company, that means there are people working for it, and, sometimes, you know, they need to be paid...

then, have you seen that this same promo is sold to $60 by its con buyers, on ebay? why don't you harrass them?

06-11-2003, 06:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hdefined:
Do people still buy anything from Top Cow? Why?

I buy Darkness and Witchblade because I like comics that make up their own mythologies.

Of course, these two stopped doing that a long time ago, but maybe someday they'll start using it again.

Derek Ruiz · 06-11-2003, 06:35 PM

I figure lots og guys are just gonna go out and buy the 5.00 book at the con and jack it up on ebay...I think Turner and crew were smart to charge for it. Demand drives up the price i guess...Those books and the few copies of Aspen #1 that got out there are gonna be money makers for those that got them before Diamond stopped the shipping.

Derek

scion09 · 06-11-2003, 06:49 PM

Whatever the outcome, I've lost a LOT of respect for Top Cow and Silvestri as a result of this. The Aspen/Fathom stuff I guess I can understand. But claiming to own Ekos and Soulfire, which hadn't come out at all from Top Cow, seems a little....dirty. If Top Cow was in trouble before (as the sales numers of their recent comics shows), they're in some DEEP shit now.

Derek Ruiz · 06-11-2003, 06:57 PM

Yeah Sci you're right...they are in deep shit now. Slivestri lost my respect when he decided to do X-Men fillins for Marvel...Shit I would prefer him to do a Witchblade or Darkness Fillin...now that would make me happy.

FIG · 06-11-2003, 07:28 PM

The fact of the matter is even beyond the contract, that Top Cow has become an embodiment of what its founder Marc Silvestri hated so much about other companies. It's become greedy to an embarrasing point. If Michael Turner did breach his contract then he is in for a huge fight but one would think Top Cow out of all companies would try to settle this disagreement with a handshake as opposed to such heavyhanded action. Its a huge comic company against one artist for chrisake!-We are talking about one artist and his small company. I don't think Michael Turner poses such a huge threat. Why don't the two parties involved acknowledge how mutually beneficial their relationship has been and part ways? This disagreement goes to show how to be careful when entering into contract with Image, the supposed company who once stood for creative freedom and rights. Too bad we probably won't be seeing any book from Michael Turner for a while.

stlfan79 · 06-11-2003, 07:38 PM

I was all for Turner in this untili I saw the details of the contract in TC's retort. If what Top Cow says is true regarding the contract Turner is screwed, and should be, but if they are wrong on it they suck. The thing that kills me is I just want to see some Turner work and I don't get to know becuase one of the parties is acting in the wrong.

chuck gibson · 06-11-2003, 07:45 PM

Ok---so Silvestri finds Turner and trains him and makes him a star. Silvestri made an investment that paid off when Turner fully "bloomed" and the look of the books started aping his style. Marc's a generous kind of guy from what I've seen personally, so he probably started throwing money at Turner in huge amounts. Then Turner does Fathom---Marc again takes the risk. Do you think Turner put up the money to publish it? No way. That's some real money out there by the time you promote and everything else. Fathom takes off and again, Marc's investment pays off. Turner gets sick and can't work--his contract says he has to do a certain amount to keep his copyright on the book---Marc's probably leanient and lets it go. Turner recovers and after seeing how highly anticipated his return to comics was, decides to cut Marc out of the deal.

I mean there's no way the Dragonfly project was mentioned to Wizard by accident. The article was a dressed up press release. So again, Marc is making an investment here to get this into Wizard.

Then Turner decides to bail on the deal, take the characters, take other employees that Marc's invested in, and ultimately to take advantage of Marc's good nature which probably CARRIED Turner though his illness----and Marc's just supposed to smile and wave??

Let me say that all of the above is speculation. I know Marc Silvestri from the early Homage Studios days---this is a really nice guy here. I'd be utterly amazed if he was "screwing" Turner in any way. If anything, this reeks of the unappreciative teenager storming out of the house and calling his dad a jerk. Marc Silvestri MADE Turner into the talent he is today. Turner started out doing Marc's backgrounds on Cyberforce. The guy was hand-trained by Silvestri to the best of my knowledge.

I only met Turner once and it was brief and forgettable. He was working on a page at the time and just looked up to say "Hi".

I'm telling all of this to give you all an idea of how well or not so well I know these folks. It seems to me that Turner is easily as indebted to Top Cow for what they've done for him as Top Cow is to Turner. Who knows what happened behind the scenes, but it sounds to me like Turner got pissed at someone, took some of the toys he and his buddies chipped in on, and left the sandbox, flipping them the bird.

that's the way I see it.

best
chuck gibson

Pariah · 06-11-2003, 07:55 PM

Obviously Top Cow has been hurting for business. Checking out the most recent Previews they only have five real books left coming out anymore. Instead of calling them the scorned ex-girlfriend (yeah, that'll bring the girls running to this message board) they're like the prom queen who realizes she's not all that much once she gets to college. In my opinion, Top Cow has hung onto the cliched 90s oversexualized woman characters way past fashion. Losing Turner must have been a big blow for them popularity wise and financially. Though if every thing they claim in the suit is true (and if they have the written contracts then most of it is true beyond a doubt) I don't see them losing the lawsuit. But they're losing the comic battle by forcing this on a man who has already overcome some pretty tough obstacles in his career.

Derek Ruiz · 06-11-2003, 08:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Pariah:
Instead of calling them the scorned ex-girlfriend (yeah, that'll bring the girls running to this message board) [QB]

I could of said the Crazy ass Ex boy friend that needs to eventually get a Restraining order against him..but someone would of got offended...and I don't see how that would shun anyone anyway but that might just be me and I don't offend easy....

quote:
Originally posted by chuck gibson:
[QB] Then Turner does Fathom---Marc again takes the risk.

By the time Fathom came out Turner was the Golden boy...He was what I would of called a sure thing...So the risk wasn't so bad for MArc