SPOILER SPORT: ED BRUBAKER ON THE WINTER SOLDIER

[MattBrady]

And with this week’s Captain America #14, “The Winter Soldier” wraps up, concluding the storyline that saw writer Ed Brubaker bring Cap’s former partner Bucky, back to life – originally as a brainwashed former Soviet soldier, and now…?

We sat down with Brubaker to discuss the storyline, and the return, and get into his head in regards to his goals for the arc.

Of course, before we get rolling,

THIS INTERVIEW IS FILLED WITH SPOILERS... SO DON'T COMPLAIN LATER!

Newsarama: So – “The Winter Soldier” is wrapped. And you really did it, you freaking brought back Bucky... and you somehow made it work…

Ed Brubaker: We did... And I sure hope it worked. So far the response seems to be mostly positive. You always worry when you do any kind of real controversial story like this, but I think we made this an important Cap story, so we got some leeway from the fans, even those who hated the idea.

NRAMA: Before we dig into things further, is this how you planned it all along, a to z, or were there changes/adaptations/compromises on the story? Was the story you told the story you wanted to tell from the get go?

EB: Actually, right down to the final beat, it's all in my proposal for the book. Some stuff came up that I hadn't planned, like the Red Skull's daughter stuff that was seeded a few issues back. That just came from me thinking, what would Crossbones do if he thought the Skull had been killed? And I hadn't planned to include the Falcon, but when he became available, I immediately saw him having a purpose in this story. But from the Skull's murder to the Cosmic Cube to the Winter Soldier and down to the very last beat when Cap gives Bucky his memories back - without realizing the mental strain this would cause on his old friend - that was all there from the get-go. And I really didn't get any resistance from Marvel, other than having a few mild swear words removed here or there for some reason.

NRAMA: That said, let’s talk intent. What was your goal in telling this particular Cap story?

EB: Well, that's probably a bit complicated. My main goal was just to tell a gripping Cap story that touched on some of the things I always loved about Cap comics as a kid. And I wanted to do a comic where Cap didn't stand around giving speeches about what his costume means. I wanted to return that Steranko era feel to the book, because I thought that was the right way to mix the current world with the Marvel U. But also, from the first moment I was offered this job, I wanted to bring Bucky back and make him a character that mattered. And that probably comes from my childhood fondness for these characters. I always dug Bucky, and I loved those Kirby stories with him and Cap in WW2 where Bucky's tough as nails and using a machine gun.

NRAMA: So when you pitched the story, what was Joe’s reaction, and what was Tom Brevoort’s reaction? In short, was there resistance from Marvel?

EB: There was resistance from Tom Brevoort, but Joe just kept making this noise like a cash register... it was kind of scary, actually.

Seriously, I think they'd argued this issue at some of their meetings over the years, and Joe and some of the other editors were already in favor of it, if there was a way to do it that Tom would agree to. And when I got offered the book, the first time Joe and I talked about what I might do, I said "I've got this crazy idea to bring back Bucky, but it won't suck." And he just laughed and gave me Brevoort's phone number with a warning to beware of explosions on the other end.

And then in talking to Tom, and explaining how I'd been wanting to do this story for years and years, he explained his reasons why it wouldn't work, and he gave me, I think, five questions that needed to be answered to his satisfaction before he'd agree to it. And in answering those questions, the story I had been sitting on and thinking about became a much better and more intricate story, actually. There's a lot of bits to this story that people still haven't noticed, in the issues that have already come out, just little bits that mean a lot if you read closely. Tom really was instrumental in helping shape this narrative, honestly, even as he was reluctant to do it to begin with. The fact that I could win him over, and make a story he actually liked was a big achievement for me.

NRAMA: What fed your brain in writing this story? After all, your larger environment, exploring the wreckage left over by the Cold War is one that’s pretty popular. Can you point to anything that influenced you, fictional or non?

EB: Really just thinking about spy stories, and the Cold War, and deciding the mix that into the Marvel Universe a bit. I'd just read a number of books about MI-6 and spies and double-agents, before I started Cap, and then when I was researching WW2, I read more about the Soviet side of the battle, and a lot of that really spoke to me. But as I said, a lot of it came from that initial talk with Tom. Having to answer some of his questions led to a much deeper Soviet role than I might have gone for otherwise. But once I thought about it, the whole Winter Soldier history just started unfolding in my head.

NRAMA: On a tangent to that, as Sam noted, Cap’s been thawed for 10 years. That means that now, as a result of the sliding Marvel Universe timeline, he missed the entire Cold War at this point. Does that affect his character at all, compared to, say, the Cap of ten years ago, who lived through a portion of the Cold War?

EB: I don't know. That's the thing about the sliding comic book timelines that really bothers me a bit, personally, but it is what it is. My feeling is that Cap cares enough about history and his country that he'd certainly become informed about all this. And honestly, many of our intelligence and government agencies still function as if the Cold War is going on. It probably still is to some degree, just on different fronts, corporate and technological ones, things like that.

NRAMA: You’d mentioned before when we spoke about “The Winter Soldier” that you didn’t feel that Bucky’s death was an iconic, transformative event in Cap’s life to the extent that it was untouchable…why not?

EB: Bucky's death was Stan Lee making Captain America more of the traditional Marvel hero. He needs a tragedy in his past, or he's not a Marvel character. But Stan was smart, because when he wrote the book, he always said when Bucky supposedly died, and talked about how his body was never found, etc. And he brought him back a few times, though he always revealed it to be a trick, a robot, or brainwashing Cap, stuff like that. But he always left that thread dangling out there. And I always asked myself why. Now I know that a hell of a lot of other people did, too, apparently.

But my other reasoning was fairly geeky, I suppose, but Bucky never actually died on panel. There was no "in continuity" issue of Captain America that you could buy where Bucky dies and Cap gets trapped in a block of ice. I bought the issue of Spider-Man where the Green Goblin kills Gwen Stacy. I've read the issue where Uncle Ben dies. But with Bucky it was a retcon. So, to me, that always made it a bit more okay to tell another story around that.

Also, though, I went to pains to make sure our story didn't conflict with any of the previous Cap continuity, at the same time. I altered some of the events surrounding Cap and Bucky's last mission in WW2, to make it work better and make more sense than the various versions told over the years, and I rewrote Bucky's meeting with Cap to make his role as his partner and fellow Invader make more sense, to explain how a sixteen year old kid in 1942 got teamed up with a super-soldier, two guys who can fly while on fire, and the king of Atlantis, but other than mild tweaks to the Cap tapestry, nothing we did changes these stories.

NRAMA: Speaking of the friendship between Cap and Bucky, throughout the entire fight between the two in #14, Cap’s faith in Bucky remembering who he was never wavered. Was Cap 100% sold that Bucky still had “Bucky” inside, or was he…for lack of a better word, willing himself, and, by extension, Bucky, to believe it?

EB: I think it was a bit of that, really. Cap wanted to be able to save his friend without having to use the cube to do it, I think. He hoped that he could find a way to break through to him. But he also wasn't going to let him get away with the cosmic cube and cause more destruction. So it was a tough moment for him.

NRAMA: But why did believe that Bucky was in there from the start? What was his rationale for this? Cap’s eminently practical, but there was no real foundation to base this on…

EB: A large part of it was because Cap wanted to believe it, probably, but also because of some of the stuff in issue #11, the Winter Soldier File issue. There were things in there that showed little bits of Bucky buried deep inside the Winter Soldier, or at least Cap thought so, and he hoped he could reach those parts.

NRAMA: Continuing on that line of though, Cap was 100% “on” for that fight – there was no doubt he was going to fail in this mission. Does Cap, generally speaking, entertain doubt?

EB: I don't think so. He's determined to achieve his goals or die trying, most of the time, I think. He's a soldier, remember, who fought through 5 plus years of solid warfare. He can't afford to doubt when going into battle. But he's smart, too, so he has contingency plans. My feeling was that using the cube to save Bucky was always his contingency plan here. And when he had to, he dodged a bullet and brought the cube right to his hands. He gave Bucky the chance to do it the other way, and used the answer to his own ends, basically.

NRAMA: When Cap did get the Cube, and told Bucky to remember, did Bucky get everything back?

EB: Yeah. He remembers his whole life, including all the Winter Soldier parts. If Cap had thought about it harder, he might have asked to have those parts wiped out of his memory, really.

NRAMA: But playing devil’s advocate - asking the Cosmic Cube to help you is very “monkey’s paw” at best…any repercussions coming? I mean – The Winter Soldier could have been, in reality, someone named Comrade Pitor Nikoli, created just to demoralize Cap, but with him wishing it to be so with the Cube, couldn’t Cap just have willed the Winter Soldier to be Bucky, and so he was?

EB: That wasn't how I looked at it. Look at what he said -- Remember who you are. He didn't say -- become who I think you are. Or -- be Bucky. It was very straightforward. Which is more the tragedy, since Bucky immediately has this immense guilt for everything he did as the Winter Soldier.

NRAMA: Speaking of that guilt, Bucky grabs the Cube and what…did he make a wish?

EB: No - Bucky didn't make a wish. He just destroyed the cube. My feeling was at that last moment, he just wanted to be anywhere than where he was right then, full of grief, having just tried to kill his best friend. He just wanted to go home. So when he disappeared, that's where he went. The only real home he ever had. Which is now a ghost town, like many old military bases are around the country. I found that a real haunting image, the way Steve drew it.

Oh, and a sidebar moment -- Steve Epting is a comic book drawing genius. He killed on every issue of this book he drew, and his covers are probably the best in comics right now. If he doesn't get nominated for at least Best Cover Artist in the Eisners, it's a crime. And Frank D'Armata, our colorist, deserves mucho praise as well. Frank is so great.

NRAMA: So – either from your 100% honest point of view, or your teasiest point of view – where is Bucky’s head at the end of #14? Is he recovered?

EB: I think he's got his memories, and ten times the self-hate and guilt than any Marvel character this side of Wolverine has ever had. He's a mass-murderer. He worked for the enemy. And now he knows it. And like Steve, he's a man out of time. The world he grew up in is gone. My hope is that Bucky Barnes, as the Winter Soldier, is a character in the classic Marvel model. Conflicted, a bit tortured, but a great guy at heart.

NRAMA: That said, where’s Cap’s head? He figured this whole thing out, and has SHIELD’s resources behind him – he could find Bucky in a heartbeat. Will he?

EB: I don't think it would be quite that easy. Remember, the Winter Soldier is one of the best-trained spies in the world, too. He can disappear pretty well. And there have been shake-ups at SHIELD. Cap wants to believe that Bucky didn't kill himself when he destroyed the cube. And he wants to find him. He wants to bring him back to the side of the angels, and save him. Really save him. But how he goes about finding him and whether he can save him... those are stories left to be told.

NRAMA: Along those lines, Aleksander Lukin, who was the puppetmaster for the Winter Soldier, has stories left to tell as well. From what you and Steve showed at the end - is the Red Skull in his head now? How?

EB: There was a huge clue in issue one. The Skull is holding the cosmic cube when he gets shot. And he's talking to Lukin on the phone. I can't believe how many people missed that.

At that last moment, he tried to use the cube to switch bodies with Lukin, to kill him, instead, but between the cube being weak, and the Skull in the act of dying, it didn't work. So now he's trapped in Lukin's mind, and Lukin is trapped with him. The evolution of this in the next few stories in the book is going to be really fun to write.

NRAMA: Before we finally close – the Winter Soldier is showing up in Wolverine – how did that happen? Were you consulted on his appearance and apparent folding into Wolverine’s origin story?

EB: That was something that was suggested to me early on, that he'd be in a Wolverine arc somehow, and the way Daniel Way decided to do it was fascinating, and worked so well with the Winter Soldier background, that I couldn't have been more pleased. And yeah, I consulted on every part that concerns Bucky, to make sure it all fit and worked with my plans, too. It's a killer little story, actually. People are going to really dig it. And hopefully it'll send some Wolverine readers our way, seeking those Winter Soldier collections.

NRAMA: Big picture wise – how is a Captain America with the knowledge that his former partner (and former brainwashed Russian killer) is out there in the world different from the Cap we saw at the start of this arc? How has living through “The Winter Soldier” changed him?

EB: I think it's still the same Cap, but now his long-buried guilt about Bucky has been dragged back to the surface and turned into something a little more complicated and ugly. But at the same time, what's great about Cap is his belief in himself and his friends. So now, while he'll always feel he failed Bucky somehow, he also believes he can save him, and help him.

That was one thing I really thought about. If you bring back Bucky, you take something from Cap's history and change it, so you have to replace that with something that serves a similar purpose, and still highlights that part of the character. I think the Winter Soldier storyline went to the heart of who Cap is, and why he does what he does. And I think it brought back a side of him that I'd been missing. This wistful man out of time, with the weight of the world on his shoulders. I was trying to, for lack of a better word, re-Marvelize him.

NRAMA: Fair enough, but after his appearance at Fort Lehigh, what’s coming in Bucky’s future?

EB: A lot. But I don't want to spoil the future issues, since I've given away so much of my thinking on this last storyline.

NRAMA: Alright then, what about Cap, what’s coming for him?

EB: Lots of action. Shorter story arcs that build off each other. A trip to the UK. Oh, and Crossbones and Red Skull's daughter.

[SeamusMcClernan]

Bucky (and Gwen Stacy) should've been "untouchable."

[BlueThunderArmy]

I've never been able to get into Captain America as a character, but it sounds like Brubaker is doing some really compelling stuff. Might pick this up in trade.

[The Shadow]

Best Captain America arc since Waid's first run.

Simply amazing.

I was a naysayer... "LEAVE BUCKY DEAD!" but Ed wrote a great story and won me over.

[Police-dude]

I never really loved the charatcer of C.A. , but Brubacker does a really fantastic run on this series, and i will follow it until he goes away. Im really starting to feel like a groupie

[Howard]

I'm in favor of Ed bringing back Jack Flag complete with Ghetto Blaster Bazooka/Cannon.

I read a few issues, when the second trade comes out I'll get them both or wait a few months for the oversized hardcover if it looks like it'll come.

[The Shadow]

Originally posted by SeamusMcClernan
Bucky (and Gwen Stacy) should've been "untouchable."

Why's that?

Bucky's death was never the catalyst for Steve becoming Captain America (unlike the Wayne's dying cause Bruce to become Batman).

Bucky's death was a retcon done by Stan Lee in 1964. Originally Bucky survived World War 2 and helped Cap fight Communists into the mid-1950's.

Did you read the whole story?

[Mediancat]

Originally posted by SeamusMcClernan
Bucky (and Gwen Stacy) should've been "untouchable."

I agree.

The story was probably about as well told as it could have been, under the circumstances; I can't imagine it being done better.

But it doesn't work. It really doesn't. Some characters just need to stay dead, and Bucky Barnes was one of them.

I see, somewhere down the road, someone else restoring Bucky's death to the continuity.

At least, I hope so.

Rob aka Mediancat

[Cyphon]

Great storytelling and wonderful art. I just hope Bru and Co. can keep up the quality as they move into new stories.

[The Shadow]

Originally posted by Mediancat
I agree.

The story was probably about as well told as it could have been, under the circumstances; I can't imagine it being done better.

But it doesn't work. It really doesn't. Some characters just need to stay dead, and Bucky Barnes was one of them.

I see, somewhere down the road, someone else restoring Bucky's death to the continuity.

At least, I hope so.

Rob aka Mediancat

I gotta ask again...

Why's that?

Bucky's death was never the catalyst for Steve becoming Captain America (unlike the Wayne's dying cause Bruce to become Batman).

Bucky's death was a retcon done by Stan Lee in 1964. Originally Bucky survived World War 2 and helped Cap fight Communists into the mid-1950's.

[jubilee]

this enitre cap run has been great, as long as bru's on board, im on board

[Mark Cardwell]

All that guilt and barely concealed homoerotic longing for Bucky was the most corny, over-egged aspect of the post-thaw Captain America mythos (no, really: classic though it may be, Steranko's run is hilarious in retrospect, as Cap goes into a hysterical hissy fit after seeing Rick Jones dressed as Bucky). Glad Brubaker had the onions to put it out of its misery once and for all.




Hmm. Bit of a food motif to this post, I've noticed.

[samnoir]

With the Winter Soldier involved in a Wolverine plotline now as well, I am hoping that Marvel doesn't beat a good thing into the ground.

The return of Bucky has been handled incredibly well thus far and I wouldn't want to see The Winter Soldier suddently thrown into Civil War, Annihilation, meeting Power Pack, and joining the Young Avengers.

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[Jack Burton]

2 years ago if you told me Captain America would be fighting Bucky the REAL Bucky I'd have said what garbage. Now after reading it what do I say? It's the best Captain America story I've read in almost 10 years.

[Mark Cardwell]

Oh, and sod this "only thawed out ten years, and missed the cold war" crap. Cap was around to lay the smackdown on both Nixon AND a mutated-into-a-snake Ronnie Reagan, I seem to remember.

[EyesBL7]

Mr. Brubaker, thank you for making my favorite character the most compelling super hero book in print today. You touched on every aspect of Cap's history and blended them together perfectly. Ive been reading Captain America since I was 8 yrs old and never once have I told someone "YOU HAVE TO READ CAPTAIN AMERICA!!" until you came long. It was the perfect mix of WWII era storytelling, Cap's Gruenwald days, and modern day grit. If I ever see you at a con Im gonna shake your hand and thank you in person.

[IB2383]

This was a truly great story in my opinion. It had all the spy intrigue/action/superhero that makes a quality Cap tale. I agree that bringing Bucky back was a good call. As for my reasoning, Brubaker, who is a class act and well deserving of his new profile, I feel didn't do this for the shock factor of selling a few extra comics. Everything Ive read shows me that he actually cared about making this a strong storyline and not a cheap gag. I too hope that Bru sticks around for a long run on this title.

[Adam Sasher]

I love Ed Brubaker! He made Captain America the best book at Marvel comics over the last year and made me love Captain America more than I ever have before. I never expected Bucky to ever return, and was very hesitant to even try to give this story a chance when I first heard about it. Damn I am so glad that I did because the "Winter Soldier" storyline is the best arc of any comic that I have read from Marvel in the pat 2 decades. Brubaker took something that most people would be terrified to even try to work with and made it into an instant classic!!

Thank You Ed you are the man!!

[Bane122]

I like Cap but don't pick the book up that much.

This article has made me want to get the trades now.

After all, if I can give Jason Todd coming back a shot, why not this?

[palefire]

One of the best story arcs in a long time, in any book not just Cap. Way to go Bru! That was a home run.

[samnoir]

I think Captain America is currently the best book Marvel is publishing right now. I am very much looking forward to Brubaker and Lark's run on Daredevil.

I'm glad that there are further plans for the Winter Soldier on this title and the Red Skull ending was killer. This makes Lurkin one of the more interesting new villians in the Marvel U, particularly since he doesn't run around in a costume shouting.

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[Mr Floon]

Brube's run is right up there with Lee-Kirby-Steranko, Englehart, Stern-Byrne et alia.

And few characters are really untouchable, like Ben Parker. I agree that Bucky's death was not an integral part of Cap's character dynamo, and that Brubaker has done the right thing in keeping "guilt" in the equation. The Winter Soldier will ADD to Cap's richness: it makes all manner of fresh new war allegories possible. All told, a brilliant move that was exceptionally well executed.

Brubaker is immensely talented and I look FWD to his future books at Marvel, where I hope he stays for a good long while.

[bizarrolike]

I am gonna say this again for everyone to remember. Ed Brubaker is one of the best writer's in comics and his run on capt america has been nothing short of astounding and his deadly genesis take on the x-men just as impressive.

Also I would hope this brings steve epting to some more recognition,the man does great work and deserves some attention.

[freedom fry]

Woot!

Crossbones is back! Woot! I missed good old Crossbones!



woot I say!

[Mediancat]

Originally posted by The Shadow
I gotta ask again...

Why's that?

Bucky's death was never the catalyst for Steve becoming Captain America (unlike the Wayne's dying cause Bruce to become Batman).

Bucky's death was a retcon done by Stan Lee in 1964. Originally Bucky survived World War 2 and helped Cap fight Communists into the mid-1950's.

I'm aware of this. That Bucky is the one who became Nomad, if I recall.

Because it was an unnecessary resurrection. It didn't serve any larger plot point, and, Brubaker's assertions that we never saw Bucky die aside, this was not a character whose resurrection was really and truly planned for all along. (I also objected to the resurrection of the Norman Osborn Green Goblin and Jason Todd for the same reason, and would similarly object to a genuine resurrection of Gwen Stacy, Barry Allen, or Mar-Vell.)

I have no illusions that death is permanent in comics; but I still think this one should have been.

Rob aka Mediancat