TALKING WITH JESUS CASTILLO

[MattBrady]

To date, the coverage of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund’s defense of Jesus Castillo has focused largely on the procedural side of the initial trial, appeal, and now, appeal to the Supreme Court to have the conviction against Castillo overturned. Now, for the first time, since he lost his appeal, Castillo himself is talking.

Through a special arrangement with the CBLDF, Newsarama presents an interview with Castillo for the Fund’s newsletter, Busted! conducted by the Fund’s Executive Director, Charles Brownstein.

For background on the case, and its upcoming appeal to the United States Supreme Court, click here.

BUSTED: Tell me what happened when you sold the Demon Beast Invasion comic book? Was there anything suspicious about the sale?

CASTILLO: No, not at the time that I sold it, there wasn’t anything suspicious that I felt after I sold it. The next customer came by. There was nothing that would indicate that several months later it would change.

BUSTED: You didn’t think anything of selling the book, it was just routine procedure?

CASTILLO: Right. Especially in light of the fact that it was an adult.

BUSTED: Could you explain the transaction to me, how it occurred?

CASTILLO: As I remember it, the customer went straight to the back area of the store. I greeted him and he said hi and not much of anything else. I said, if I can help, let me know. He went to the back of the store and minutes later he produced a book and I sold it to him. I told him the charge, he gave me the money, and that was it.

BUSTED: Tell me what happened when you were arrested for the first charge.

CASTILLO: It was a Wednesday around 2 in the afternoon. The first officer said that he wanted to see my ID. I gave him my ID and spelled my name and then he went back out with my ID and a few minutes later he came back in and said I was that gonna get arrested. I asked “Why?” because at the time I didn’t know what to think. I thought it was a mistake. At the time Keith had called the other person that was working and told him the situation that was happening. He talked to the officer and the officer told him I was gonna be arrested and wouldn’t answer anymore questions. He said, “when you’re down there, you’ll find out.” I got arrested in the back of the store, Keith made an arrangement that I wouldn’t get arrested in the front of the store and the office complied. So I was arrested in the back of the store.

BUSTED: Was there anybody else in the store?

CASTILLO: At the time I can remember at least two long-time customers that were witness to the police officer coming in and out.

BUSTED: What happened when you were taken downtown?

CASTILLO: I was there until about 4 or 5 in the morning. We got there and started the process at 4 in the afternoon or so, and I made several calls. One to my house, I talked to my brother, and then called Keith and see if he could post my bail. I told him I was arrested and in custody. I didn’t even know at the time what book had sold. What books for that matter, if there was more than one.

BUSTED: What was Keith’s reaction?

CASTILLO: Keith found out at the time because he had called the store that afternoon and talked to the officer that was arresting me at the location and found out that I was getting arrested. And he was shocked and couldn’t get his mind around it. He was just very upset that it happened. He was a responsible retailer.

BUSTED: And how did you feel through this?

CASTILLO: It was the same, I thought I was responsible also. I thought that if you’re an adult, as long as there’s no kids involved, it’s all right to sell to an adult. It didn’t have anything hurting somebody else or showing anything that dealt with child pornography. Or photos even, because as a comic store we don’t carry much with actual photographs.

BUSTED: What happened in the intervening time between the early morning where you were released and the second charge being filed?

CASTILLO: The way I found out about the second charge was a few weeks later I received an order saying there was a warrant for my arrest again, and I thought it was the same one, that it was a mistake. I took it to my lawyer at the time and he called back an hour later and found out that it was another charge for another book. This time it was Legend of the Overfiend. So, he arranged it so I could show up and be processed on Saturday afternoon and at that time I only stayed an hour and a half or two hours. I went down there with a lawyer and a bail bondsman and was in and out.

BUSTED: When and how did you get involved with the CBLDF on this case?

CASTILLO: Well, we had heard rumblings that the store had been listed in a school newsletter that said Keith’s Comics was to be avoided. When Keith found out about that he called the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund and faxed over the paper. So we got involved even before I was arrested. It must have been a year before I got arrested. So I found out that maybe they were investigating us through that time and finally I was arrested with the charges they wanted.

BUSTED: Tell me about the court process. How did your life change after the arrest and what changes did you have to make as you went in to confront the court in this matter?

CASTILLO: Psychologically I just had to be positive that I was gonna win, and that was pretty much it. I was positive until that day that the jury went out and read the verdict. I was just shocked. I was shocked first that I was charged and then convicted of promoting obscenity.

BUSTED: How did the conviction change your life?

CASTILLO: Mostly, I feel like I’m an upbeat guy, but it is scary to think that by selling an adult comic to an adult person that you can have your life changed. And to actually have to go through the process of getting a probation officer that you have to go to every month, and just be thought of as a criminal…

BUSTED: What happens when you have to meet the probation officer?

CASTILLO: I only met her twice, because everything was put on hold because of the appeals. I went up there and she said she didn’t have my file because it was gonna be reviewed. We thought it was gonna be turned over. And of course there was the $4,000 fine. So now I have 8 months probation, 80 hours of community service, $4,000 in fines. And there was 180 days of suspended sentence.

BUSTED: How does the suspended sentence affect you?

CASTILLO: It says on my record that I did some jail time. Everything depends on who’s seeing the record. If anybody wants to hire me, they can say, “I don’t know if I want to hire him because he broke the law years ago.” And also, I can’t have any government job for the rest of my life. I can’t be a police officer or a postman, or any other kind of government job.

BUSTED: Can you leave the state?

CASTILLO: As long as I tell my probation officer where I’m going, they can give me permission to leave the state.

BUSTED: How did the community that you interact with in the store react to all of this?

CASTILLO: They’ve been very supportive and also shocked that it would happen. Even now some new customers have come in and they’ve found out about it. A high percentage of them are very supportive and hope that everything will be all right in the end. Of course every time I give them the Busted! newsletter, the newest one, and tell them the way you can help me is to join the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund.

BUSTED: How has this experience made you feel about the law?

CASTILLO: Before this I didn’t know they would attack artwork, or comic books in this case. You’d think that if it’s between consenting adults that there would be no trouble on it. I guess you can just write to your representatives, and hopefully we can write enough letters that we can change or put provisions on the law.

BUSTED: How do you feel about the Supreme Court appeal?

CASTILLO: Well, I’ve been reading a lot of the stuff on the net and one guy said that maybe one percent of the cases get through to the Supreme Court. So there’s a small chance, but I still have hope of course. It’s mind blowing and scary to think that I’ll have to go through the probation period – I’m sure I’ll come out fine, thousands of people have gone through probation and they’re fine – but I’ve never been through any probation period or any jail time. I’ve never been in trouble with the law, so it’s very, very scary for me.

BUSTED: And how do you feel about the attention this case has received?

CASTILLO: Well, I feel all right about it. I’m not excited about it. I do like talking to customers, but mostly I would like just to talk about the latest comic books that are out and the latest creators that are on the comic books. I’d rather do something like that than talk about the case. I tell them it’s going all right and with the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund’s help I’m going forward. My family is supportive also. We’re just hanging on and hopefully everything will turn out good.

[Jeffbot]

Good luck, Mr. Castillo.

[pmpknface]

The more I read about this the more disturbing it is. I wish you the best of luck in getting to the Supreme Court Jesus!

[John Jones]

Good Luck in the future Jesus, and hopefully the SC will take your case so justice can be regained.

Every time I read about this, I'm shocked and dismayed all over again. It's hard to believe that an ignorant cop and a vindictive PTA member could cause so much trouble for someone who seems like such a good person. To know that a jury actually found hime guilty is even harder to accept, and has convinced me to stay well away from Texas.

[PopCultureKid]

Yeah, this is indeed a scary case. Basically, any zealot or person with a axe to grind can find some reason to call the cops or D.A. about ANY comic store in the country.

[pogoman]

Hi Matt;
I'm not sure about this...but basicall Mr Castillo got arrested because he sold a comic book? is that what I'm getting? It must have been an adult comic book, but like he mentioned, it was sold to an adult.

How is that possible to arrest someone for that? please explain. thank you.

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by pogoman:
How is that possible to arrest someone for that? please explain. thank you.

---

Read the link in the top portion, before the interview. Not saying it will make any more sense, but it explains how he got arrested.

MattB

[Chris Galdieri]

----------

[dlairman]

I thought the first ammendment of the US Constitution went something like this...

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

... or something like that

Let's check that again. Nope, I don't see where it says "no law abridging the freedom or the press except when some whiny or controlling moron wants to pass a law."

Seems to me that any law that says "this you cannot print" or "this you cannot read" or "this idea you cannot distribute" is in violation of the first ammendment.

No law means no law. It is prettty simple, stated in terms even a child could understand. Why has no one walked into the courtroom and submitted the first ammendment to the Constitution as the first piece of evidence, and then said, "case dismissed"?

Or at the very least, answered every accusation by the prosecution, every question presented by the prosecution with the sentence "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"? After the first twenty or so repetitions, I think even the prosecution might get the idea that they (the prosecution) are trying to support an illegal law.

[Starsky_Hutch76]

THis is stunning. I used to work at Keith's Comics. He's a good guy and a father himself, so I know he'd never let anything innapropriate fall in the hands of kids or hire anyone who would. THe fact that this was one adult selling the material to another and it's gone to court is ludicrous.

[classicist]

The problem is not necessarily that he sold the item to an adult, but rather that the item was accessible to children. As he was selling material that could be illegal to sell to children, the laws in most states require that such material be inaccessible (behind the counter, or in some such place) to children. I know a lot of stores have the "Adults only" bin right next to the register, which can partially shield from such issues.
Of course, such laws are rarely enforced; but I can imagine that a conviction would be fairly easy to secure, given the graphic nature of the material in question, that the jury would almost certainly feel to be "deviant;" and, unlike in many cases, the material, as evidence in the trial, would have to be shown to the jury, regardless of its prejudicial nature.
Unfortunately, the Court ruled in a similar first amendment case last term- dealing with depictions of child sex acts, not having anything to do with real children- so its unlikely that they'll take up a similar case this term. I wish Jesus the best, though.

[Charles Brownstein]

Actually, Classicist, the books were kept in an adults only area, which was a separate area in the back of the store inaccessible to minors. One had to be an adult to enter.

[Charles Brownstein]

Also, not to be too much of a shill, but taking this case to the Supreme Court is a very costly process. This case has already cost the Fund approximately $50k cumulatively. $10k of that was just sent off to Jesus' attorneys last week for the retainer on his SC certiori petition. If you feel this case is worth supporting, please visit CBLDF.org and consider joining the Fund or making a donation. We can use any donation large or small and if you visit our premiums page you'll see lots of cool stuff that your donation can earn.

Thanks for the encouraging posts everyone. Your support helps us keep fighting this one.

[Harlequinred]

Actually, you are all interpreting the law wrong. He was charged with welling Obscenety, and Obscenety enjoys NO first amendment protection whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you sell it to children, adults, or cats: it's illegal. The legal definition of Obsceney is

1) It arouses Puriant Interests (that means it sexualy arousing in a sort of dirty, tentacle rape sort of way)
2) It is patently offensive.
3) It has no artistic merit.

The first two parts of the test are definied by comunity standards. The third is determined by the judge of the case. Frankly, if he was charged with Obscenety with overfiend... well, yep. That could very easily be defined as Obscenety.

It is true that most people don't prosecute stuff like this. Most DAs don't have time or manpower to bother with it, but it looks like in this case they made the exception.

There is another law on porn, called Indecency. Playboy, which just shows nude women, would be considered indecent. It's not Puriant, could be considered Offensive, but may have artistic merit. That stuff is legal for adults to buy but not children.

So, it sucks that the guy got slapped with this, but looking at the laws that this country has (and these laws have been around since the 70s... it's not coming out of the blue here) it's not that much of a surprise they got hit with it.

[classicist]

Harlequinred is right about the tests for obscenity- thanks for setting me straight. I think, however, that the ultimate cause of the case (rather than the proximate cause- someone with a bone to pick) is the lack of appreciation for comics as an art form. I would be amazed if such a prosecution would be undertaken for a novelization of Overfiend, or whatever, no matter how prurient. In a case where the jury is asked to make the finding of fact about whether an item has any artistic merit, or serves a non-prurient interest, I can easily imagine that the jury would simply decide based on the repulsion they have towards the material. This is one case where we might prefer that the finding of fact be made by a judge, who, hopefully, would be less biased- though, perhaps, the finding of the appeals court rules that out.
How bizarre is it that in an area where, assumably, thousands of people are selling Penthouse, this gets prosecuted. I'm teaching undergrad civil liberties this summer, and I think I may throw this case into the syllabus.

[Mr_Roboto]

Any chance we could just sell Texas to Mexico?


Lets throw in Florida for free.

[Charles Brownstein]

The problem with the obscenity argument, and indeed the problem with this case is that the work in question was not proved constitutionally obscene using the standard obscenity test (which Matt did a good job describing in the above linked article if memory serves). In the end we provided expert witnesses who testified about the work's artistic and cultural merits. The prosecution persuaded the jury to improperly ignore that testimony and rule on the notion that comics are for kids and this work was published to appeal to children.

[JK Parkin]

[quote]Originally posted by Harlequinred:


1) It arouses Puriant Interests (that means it sexualy arousing in a sort of dirty, tentacle rape sort of way)
2) It is patently offensive.
3) It has no artistic merit.

The first two parts of the test are definied by comunity standards. The third is determined by the judge of the case.

---

Wow, flashbacks to my media law class oh so many years ago ... "community standards" of course came to us from the landmark Miller vs. California case in 1973, when the Supreme Court basically pushed these kinds of cases back onto the state to decide what was obscene and what wasn't.

In my opinion, "community standards" is in direct contrast to the First Amendment, which applies to every state, community and American, not just to those who choose to abide by it. And in the Internet age, who defines these standards anyway? It was a poor ruling that should be overturned.

But again, that's just my opinion.

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by John Jones:
Good Luck in the future Jesus, and hopefully the SC will take your case so justice can be regained.

---

Be careful what you wish for. The so-called Justices of the Supreme Court could very easily take the case and then uphold his conviction, which would then set precedent for the entire nation. Depending on what basis the majority of the Supremes use to decide the case, it could establish that (for example) stores that carry material for children cannot also carry adults-only material, or even officially limit the applicability of the First Amendment to certain media presumed to be for children (i.e. comics).

While I'm hoping for a Hannegan v. Esquire (which required the Postal Service to accept and deliver "offensive" material), we could instead get a Bowers v. Hardwick (in which the Court upheld state laws regulating private sexual activity between consenting adults, and which is still being cited in civil rights cases 16 years later).

[Alex Segura Jr.]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr_Roboto:
Any chance we could just sell Texas to Mexico?


Lets throw in Florida for free.

---

That works. As long as I get time to move.

Alex

[kennyab]

Is there any way to write the Supreme Court Justices to let them know why we believe it important that they try this case? If so, where would we send the letters, and how do we identify the court case? Mr. Brownstein, I assume you would have this info. Could you post a template of a letter we could send to the Justices explaining why this case is important and why the ruling should be overturned? Thanks.

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr_Roboto:
Any chance we could just sell Texas to Mexico?
Lets throw in Florida for free.

---

The Mexican people don't deserve that; they have enough problems with corrupt police and dodgy elections. {wry grin}

-Todd VerBeek
"Forget the Alamo!"

[rjs]

[quote]To know that a jury actually found hime guilty is even harder to accept, and has convinced me to stay well away from Texas.[/QB]

---

This same sentiment about Mr. Castillo's arrest and failed appeal being exclusive to Texas keeps coming up. The repeated isolation of this case as a geographic anomaly is dismissive of Mr. Castillo's predicament, and ignores the reality of the situation.
The US as a whole views comics as a medium for children (please refer to last week's Crossfire with Stan Lee as a guest if you have any doubt). One would be hard pressed to find a state in the US in which one did not did not have overzealous parents, police and politicians, or jurors a bit dismayed at tentacle porn. So, is the suggestion that only Texans routinely deny 1st Amendment rights, and thus the legality of what occured should be ignored? Or is it just Texans who should be ignored based on a geo-centric sterotype? Or is the suggestion that the rest of the US is open minded about the contents of comics and the intended audience, thus this could never occur elsewhere?
I would suggest that anywhere in the US, the uninitiated in Hentai and Japanese erotica might find the images in the comics offensive, even with the context presented by Dr. Napier and Mr. McCloud.
Having read the legal decision, I can sympathize with Mr. Castillo and believe the law was written unfairly. Further, the entire thing DOES have a smell of entrapment. Whether Castillo was a pawn in some PTA/media/political/Crazy-Assed-Texan cabal is an interesting point, but, unfortunately, not a factor in the legal wranglings. I wish Mr. Castillo the best of luck with his appeal and I continue to financially support the CBLDF for the good work they do in this, and other places.
Those of you in Dallas and the Southwest should be FLOODING the Dallas-Morning News with protest letters. You can reach them at:

http://www.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/lettertoed.cgi

[TT417]

While all this talk of legal issues and legal technicalities is enlightening and, hopefully, the eventual salvation from a wrongful proscution,
let us not forget it was the lowest form of human life , a local politician, who got this ball rolling.

I'll let the secret out: Dante was never published when he wrote about the level of Hell reserved for them. His editor nixed it claiming it was just too horribly unbelievable.

From the deepest fibre of my being I am tempted to try to organize a protest rally at this person's office or home, but that would be only to placate my desire for vengence against a system and individual who put personal goals (greed for the power of political office) above the rights of a fellow human.
To ruin another person's life just to advance one's own career is despicable!

Then again, when Pilate did it to his Jesus, it worked. So I guess the same applies in Texas.

[American Caesar]

Harlequinred: It's spelled "obscenity" and "prurient," for the record, but I understand what you meant.

This case says more bad things about Texas than it could possibly understand.