THE Z-CULT FM SAGA: TALKING TO SERJ & ZOG

[vbartilucci]

Originally Posted by Bent Corner

I've always been under the impression that Marvel and DC didn't care that Z-Cult posted trackers to BitTorrent files of their comics. If Marvel or DC had a problem with it, all they would have had to do was email the admins at Z-Cult and ask to have their comics banned. That is, all it took to get Z-Cult to ban comics was an email from the publisher.

That's a case of using the assumption "silence = permission", one that's used QUITE often in public domain cases. The argument is, for example, that if Company X allows someone to use its characters or images on a fan-run website, or lets another company put out a product passably similar to their own, they are not adequately enforcing their copyrights and trademarks. It's why Marvel was sending Cease and Desist letters to any comic publisher who had a book with X in the title. It's why Warner Brothers threatened to sue the ten year old kid if they didn't take down their Harry Potter website. DC and Marvel HAVE to protest the torrents if they want to make sure the next guy that comes along doesn't offer the electronic versions for a profit.

Originally Posted by Bent Corner

What I don't understand is that seems to have now happened, yet the comics from Marvel and DC have not been banned. Z-Cult went ahead and put the trackers back up because they decided that they don't have to follow U.S. law. That might be the case, but don't they have to follow their own policy?

They took the site down immediately as a safety measure, while they examined their position. They first decided it was safe to bring the boards back online, and later that they could bring the torrent trackers back online. If DC and/or Marvel sends the letters that Zcult says they want specifically telling them to take down their torrents, I'm sure they'll do it. It's a case of legal semantics; Zcult maintains that the way DC/Marvel asked was the "wrong" way to ask, so until they do it the "right" way, the torrents will remain up. It gives Zcult a bit more time, and gives DC/Marvel a little time to come up with a compromise, should they choose to give one. Their actions are having a negative image impact on them (see Metallica and all the other people who complained about Napster and the like back in the day), even thought they are COMPLETELY within their rights to do what they are doing.

And that's the point here. This really is the exact same scenario the record companies went through a few years back:

-The record companies complained that downloading was making a dent in their sales and profits. In the case of comics, there's evidence to suggest this is not true, as sales across the board have actually INCREASED in the past few years, during the time that 0-day downloads became more prevalent. Now there's no way to prove that those sales are as a result of downloading; similarly there's no way to prove that if downloading did not exist, the sales would have been even higher since people would have to buy the books. You can't count what isn't there.

-Proponents of downloading touted the fact that downloading could be used as a promotional tool and once people heard a downloaded copy of a song, a percentage of them would then go buy the record. And while many people would NOT do so, the vast majority of them would not have bought the record in the first place, so no sale was really "lost". The exact same arguments are being made here, in this very thread, in fact.

-Eventually some artists and labels embraced the downloading process, and more importantly, the society of downloaders. This resulted in them gaining a "cool" status, since they knew to take advantage of the coming trend. Others attempted to give people their own version of downloadables, full of DRM and caveats, and generally pleasing no one. See the actions of Slave Labor, et al for the former, and of Marvel for the latter.

-The record industry (in fact it was outside companies like Apple, with the cooperation of the record companies, but still) came up a number of workable methods that allowed them to continue to make profits on their music, while allowing people the freedom to download songs. They tout the fact thet paying a nominal fee for the song gave you a better quality file, and didn't require you searching around numerous sites to find a file of dubious quality. You're paying for your convenience, basically.
The only thing that will keep, or at least delay the comics industry from going to the same end result of the record industry (itunes, rhapsody, etc) is the closer relationship they have with the retailers. It will require some handholding and mollifying, but I do believe it will happen.

I maintain that if the publishers make their new books available 0-day, a perfect-quality file with no scanning errors, with additional goodies that the scanners cannot provide, the vast majority of people who are downloading would pay a fair price for them. In this case we're mirroring the shift from VHS to DVD. Film companies put extras on the DVD that wouldn't be available on the tape. And the strategy worked.

In short the product (downloadable comics) already exists. It's up to DC and Marvel to make a BETTER product than what people can get for free. Simply closing down sites will not solve the problem. To paraphrase a great diplomat, the more they tighten their grip on the websites, the more downloaders will slip through their fingers.

[De Martini]

Digital distribution *is* inevitable. There will always be those fans who can't or won't read anything that isn't "on paper", but for the Big Two to deny that digital reproduction and distribution of their content isn't going to be an absolute necessity in this day and age is myopic, at best.

DC/Marvel should vigorously protect their IP, but at the same time they need to be developing strategies that will maximize returns on their product while at the same time securing the long-term future of the industry.

Sure they don't want to piss off retailers *now*... but over time B&M retailers will become less important to their business model.

I'd like to see some kind of "Amazon Unbox" model of comic subscriptions. Imagine if your comics would be downloaded overnight and ready for viewing Wednesday at noon, either on a computer or a Tivo or whatever. A buck a comic. I'd be all for it. And I'm not scared of black people, either. I really don't care for those who say otherwise.

[DalekSupreme]

Originally Posted by deadjacket

but UK copyright laws (i believe) are very similar to the US...

Yes they are. And the penalties are harsher. ALSO, They can pre-emptively strike you there. E.g. they can get an injunction against you if they think or have reasonable suspicion you are going to violate copyright.

[Bent Corner]

Originally Posted by Meteoro7

They sent a Cease and Desist letter, threatening with sueing. They didn't approach the Z-Cult as some other publishing companies did, requesting to ban their books. Whether Marvel and DC were ignorant of how big the Z-Cult community is and how it would backfire on them, or they were just too arrogant to do a little investigation. But the thing is, the Z-Cult does have a banning system and my wild guess is that neither DC nor Marvel are aware of it, because of their lack of investigation. I think I can also assume they know little of how torrenting works. Basically, it was a "scare tactic" on their part, because I highly doubt US laws apply outside of it.

But then why is Z-Cult banning some comics, but not the stuff published by Marvel and DC? At this point, they know that the powers that be at Marvel and DC don't want them to post trackers to their stuff. Z-Cult is doing it anyway because they feel as though U.S. law does not apply to them.

[Meteoro7]

Originally Posted by deadjacket

but UK copyright laws (i believe) are very similar to the US...

I really don't know the details, deadjacket, since I'm no lawyer. And I really have no clue where the trackers are, so I wouldn't know what laws would apply. All I know is that Marvel and DC tried to bully Z-Cult into closing the site with laws that might not work wherever it is. And they did little thinking, because if anything, they've given more advertising to the Cult than it has ever had. They approached the issue the worst manner possible, because they set themselves as in Marvel and DC versus fans. If I was the big boss, I'd fire those lawyers right away; I certainly doubt they wanted to become the iconic big corporate evil for fans.

You ask me, it's unbelievable how bad they handled it. Because even in the worst case scenario, new trackers will pop, set at places like Iran or wherever, and they won't have any legal rights over it. Or even the Cult could be hosted at another country (now wouldn't this be a nice idea).

The thing is, DC and Marvel are trying to shoot the pirates among the crowd instead of working a way to transform the whole digital media into their advantage. Oh, and that crappy Marvel system is years behind current scans, so don't even mention it.

Once again, I was them, I'd fire those lawyers and would focus on doing business the right way.

[vbartilucci]

Originally Posted by Steve J.

because they don't use trees? think again: they use electricity, which requires either coal or uranium, so they still have a significant environmental cost. and don't forget: computers are made of glass, plastic, metal and toxic substances, and therefore have their own special environmental impact in terms of production and disposal. so don't hug that tree too tightly...you can always grow a new one.

I'm going to give a serious response to this (I hope) sarcastic comment. Hopefully it won't cause the topic to veer to one side

Computers are not disposable items. They are used for a long time, as opposed to, say, styrofoam cups. The effect of one computer (when it is eventually thrown away on the environment) is most likely less than that of the space of x number of comics and magazines disposed of in the same time period, not to mention the pollution of printing those comics in the first place.

Flourescent lightbulbs are longer lasting than conventional bulbs, use less electricity and will save the consumer money in the long run, compared to the number of regular bulbs they'd buy in the same time. But the materials IN the bulbs are more toxic than those in regular bulbs, resulting in an effect on the environment in landfills. The question is, does the gain of less electricity needed use counterbalance the disposal issue?

Electric cars would result in less pollution from cars. But it would require much MORE electricity to run those cars, which would result in more and larger electric plants, which would, in turn, cause more pollution. Does the decreased auto emissions outweigh the increase in pollution from the electric plants? It takes a lot of energy to separate hydrogen from water to power hydrogen cells - same question.

There's always a trade off when deciding which way to go in an industrialized world. Going backward is not a viable option. It's not reasonable to ask people to ride horses instead of using cars - the better solution is to invent and make better cars.

[Bent Corner]

Originally Posted by Meteoro7

You ask me, it's unbelievable how bad they handled it. Because even in the worst case scenario, new trackers will pop, set at places like Iran or wherever, and they won't have any legal rights over it.

Ah, yeah. I'm sure that is Marvel and DC's worse fear. That Z-Cult will move to servers in Iran.

[deadjacket]

Originally Posted by Meteoro7

And I really have no clue where the trackers are,

before hiding behind the Whois guardian the website was registered to a UK address...

[OM]

Q: So why has pirating comics come into being in the first place?

A: Have you looked at the price gouging on the covers? At >$3.50 a pop, it's now become time-effective - if not cost-justifiable - to pirate comics as opposed to buying them.

Originally Posted by Bent Corner

Ah, yeah. I'm sure that is Marvel and DC's worse fear. That Z-Cult will move to servers in Iran.

...I can see it now:

"Hello? Vice-President Cheney? This is Paul Levitz at DC Comics! Fine, and yourself? Great! I've got Joe Quesada on the line with us, and Joe and I think we finally have that justification for invading Iran....oh! You're considering *nukinig* the place now? That's even better. Here's the sitch..."

Flourescent lightbulbs are longer lasting than conventional bulbs, use less electricity and will save the consumer money in the long run, compared to the number of regular bulbs they'd buy in the same time. But the materials IN the bulbs are more toxic than those in regular bulbs, resulting in an effect on the environment in landfills. The question is, does the gain of less electricity needed use counterbalance the disposal issue?

...Or, to put it another way:

"Comics produced on the expensive paper are longer lasting than good old cheap newsprint, don't go yellow in ten years and will save the consumer money in the long run because they won't have to buy even more expensive archive editions so they can read all the pretty pictures in ever-vibrant colors. But the materials IN the more expensive paper and inks are more toxic than those in older books - save for anything Los Bros Hernandez did with their sulfur press process! - resulting in an effect not only on the environment in landfills, but by causing any toilet paper made from recycled modern-era comic books toxic to any posterior they're applied to. The question is, does the gain in quality and faux justification for price gouging counterbalance anything?"

...Or, in even shorter words: If a stack of comics falls over in the woods, would anyone be there to read them?

[Meteoro7]

SLG does have comic books for download starting at $0.69 each.

Imagine how many people would jump at the chance of downloading Marvel and DC comics at this price? I certainly would.

For them not to be looking at this is... I really don't know how to put it. Shortsighted?

[Squashua]

I put a comic series up on ZCult-FM a few years back.

To me, as a person who both uses and develops for the internet, and is a concerned citizen regarding usability, their tracker system and log-in is very painful to use.

Regardless, the comic I put up was an old one from Innovation, and I know many people who were unable to acquire all of the issues for this 6-issue series. It will likely never ever be reprinted or collected.

My story is essentially, I got the books scanned properly and put up online, and the community who follows the media that the comic series was based on where especially grateful.

[Bent Corner]

Originally Posted by OM

...I can see it now:

"Hello? Vice-President Cheney? This is Paul Levitz at DC Comics! Fine, and yourself? Great! I've got Joe Quesada on the line with us, and Joe and I think we finally have that justification for invading Iran....oh! You're considering *nukinig* the place now? That's even better. Here's the sitch..."

Now I see why Marvel decided to build a theme park thingee in Dubai. It will enable them to keep on eye on the Spider-Man BitTorrents coming out of I-Ran.

[The Funketeer]

I don't download comics because I can't stand reading them on a computer. The resolution of a monitor just doesn't do it for me and I can't stand scrolling all over the page trying to figure out what's going on. That said, as soon as someone comes up with an easy way to read these things on the computer, I'm in. I don't need to spend $3.00 on something that I'm going to read once and have it take up space in my basement. I'd love to be able to download the titles that I read just to keep up with the story and purchase hard copies of only the titles I'd want to read over and over again.

I think Marvel and DC should be taking a hard look at WHY people are downloading comics. Part of it is the price (free is hard to beat) obviously. $3.00 is too much for a comic and the prices rose way too fast. You can blame it on the price of paper and computer coloring and all that jazz but the fact is, comics were selling a lot better on the cheaper paper with a lower price 20 years ago than they are now. No one was screaming for Marvel to print everything on glossy paper and yet they pretty much refuse to go back to newsprint to lower the price for us. Why do you think that is?

Accessibility and availability are obviously important factors as well. Not everyone can make it to the comic book store very week and some people don't even have a store to go to anymore (thank you 90s glut) so being able to get your weekly fix on the computer is a big plus for some. Marvel made a half attempt at pleasing those fans but paying to wait 6 months to read new issues doesn't strike me as something downloaders are going to be interested in doing. I understand their reasoning for the lag but it's not really giving people what they want.

I think the big two need to take a good look at the problems the record industry is having right now. Poor sales due to poor product and then blaming it on the downloaders and suing their own customers. Right or wrong, legal or illegal, the people rarely side with corporations and I think they're going to end up burning some bridges here.

[khuxford]

Originally Posted by Duke Jupiter

Marvel and DC are totally within their rights to go after Zcult for what they're doing. It's not Zcult's material to do what they wish with it.

- DJ

I agree. Funny thing is...unless I'm misreading things...they said they went right back. The implication seemed to be that they won't be pulling Marvel and DC books, despite the cease and desist, because they didn't follow their exact procedure for requesting their books be banned. That's a head scratcher right there.

[daken2626]

Way to go Z-cult, I hope everything works out for you guys

[vbartilucci]

Originally Posted by khuxford

I agree. Funny thing is...unless I'm misreading things...they said they went right back. The implication seemed to be that they won't be pulling Marvel and DC books, despite the cease and desist, because they didn't follow their exact procedure for requesting their books be banned. That's a head scratcher right there.

It's a delaying tactic, IMO. It's not dissimilar from the way a company will issue you a refund or rebate, but ONLY if you follow a series of specific instructions. Many will blow it off and not bother.

I expect DC and Marvel to issue said requests in the proper format post haste, and once they do we'll have to see what Zcult's response is. The other possibility is they come up with some sort of middle ground that ensures that copyright is clearly maintained and protected (a very unlikely outcome, but still remotely possible).

I hold by my theory - it was a "don't ask don't tell" situation for some time - I seem to recall Didio even saying in an interview that he didn't view downloading as a threat/issue (might be wrong on that). But when Marvel started making their books available online thay HAD to do something about Zcult, or at least attempt to. And once Marvel did, DC had to as well. I'll bet Marvel told DC their plans, and asked/suggested DC do the same. Odds are it was DC and Marvel who went after Ouroboros as well. That's total conjecture, but it's a reasonable scenario.

But again, the better solution is to offer a better alternative, not to try to legislate something out of existence. Preventing progress is almost always going to fail. Better to get in front and be there first.

So help me, if I hit the Powerball, I'm starting the company that does it. Or if any millionaires are looking for new ways to invest, let me know.

[Bent Corner]

Originally Posted by khuxford

I agree. Funny thing is...unless I'm misreading things...they said they went right back. The implication seemed to be that they won't be pulling Marvel and DC books, despite the cease and desist, because they didn't follow their exact procedure for requesting their books be banned. That's a head scratcher right there.

Yes, that's the thing that I find to be totally goofy. They have a policy of "banning" comics if and when the publisher requests that their comics not be BitTorrented. It seems to me that at the very least, Marvel and DC have now done that.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by khuxford

I agree. Funny thing is...unless I'm misreading things...they said they went right back. The implication seemed to be that they won't be pulling Marvel and DC books, despite the cease and desist, because they didn't follow their exact procedure for requesting their books be banned. That's a head scratcher right there.

If they can't get Z-Cult to stop then Marvel and DC will go after individual downloaders. It is an easy enough process to trace an IP back to the internet providers. Then it is just a matter of litigation to get the providers to fork over the users then sue them just like the music and movie companies do.


Give it time.

Oh and I can say for a fact that I will no longer torrent comics. Now that I know Marvel and DC are looking to find some people to fill their pockets.

[dirtmound]

Originally Posted by The Funketeer

I don't download comics because I can't stand reading them on a computer. The resolution of a monitor just doesn't do it for me and I can't stand scrolling all over the page trying to figure out what's going on.

Ever try fitting the page to the screen? Even on a 19 inch monitor, it's not hard to read.

[TellarHK]

About two and a half years ago now, I started picking up comics again when DC reworked Firestorm and I lived in a part of the country with 100 miles between me and the nearest comic book store. I went to Mile High's website and bought copies of Firestorm as they came out, having them shipped every time. After I realized just how much better comic writing was today compared to how it was when I was a kid, I decided to go ahead and check out more comics - but there was only one way I could really do that without a store nearby. I started downloading torrents.

I have a -lot- of torrented comic scans now. But at the same time, I'm spending someplace between $100-150 a month on comic books that I never would have purchased if not for the ability to keep up with the intricately detailed storylines that cross over so many different series. Last week, I spent $45 at my local shop - and I credit almost all of my purchases to the fact I'm able to get torrents to fill things in and experience more work from writers and artists that otherwise, I'd never see.

I never would have had the great pleasure to read Hitman, Preacher, Batman: No Man's Land, Grant Morrison's run on Animal Man and so many other great series from the last 20 years without BitTorrent. When trades are available for things like this, they're invariably expensive to the point of prohibiting a "trial" read.

If I were going to make a suggestion to the big publishers as to how to deal with this situation (which I am), what I'd say is that it might be a good idea to try and repurpose some of the older material first - don't put much focus on current issues and stories - but start putting things like the books I listed above into collections and sell them online in higher quality scan format than the torrent distributors do. I'd pay twenty bucks for the run of Hitman, or Preacher, or maybe No Man's Land, if the quality was higher and the format of the book had some sort of extra content in it. Director's commentaries work amazingly well for movies at home, how about a digital scheme that had embedded metadata that you could see while reading a book and click on highlighted items in a panel to see what the team making the book thought about something?

This wouldn't eat into retail sales in most cases, and it would offer more quality at a legitimate but not extortionary price. You will always have piracy issues - the hydra's too big to kill - but if publishers start competing on features and accessibility, they'll nail it.

Three kisses of death though: Bad sales interface, weird image formats, and a clunky reader. People want to buy things they can read in 20 years, and who knows what OS we'll all be running by then.

[jacobi]

So many people act like we're entitled to read a comic, even if it is too expensive. That is kind of bogus. I want a lot of things I cannot afford, that doesn't mean I should just be able to take them.

I have downloaded comics, and I think it is a great thing personally. Everything I read I don't feel the need to own, so I would love to follow certain books digitally. I hope DC and Marvel get off their asses and give us fans of digital comics what we want, but just because they haven't yet doesn't mean we can come from a pseudo-moral high ground talking about "I download comics because they're too expensive!". You download comics because they're free and it's easy.

[Meteoro7]

Free and easy. That's a great reasoning.

DC and Marvel could come up with unexpensive and easy.

I'd jump on the wagon right away.

[K-DoG7p7]

kinda funny.. a few months after i whine on this forum about that downloading comics is hurting them more then they know they start cracking down on it..

yes! i take credit for this..

ohh now i remember.. i wanted them to give us a leagal alternative.. havent seen that yet

[Number37]

i think digital downloads could be the death of quarter bins. i think its similar to what happened in the record industry. record companies would flood the market with albums knowing that if a single sold the album would sell even though the rest of the album was crap. with downloads you would pirate the single and that album wouldnt sell. hence itunes found its nitch. its a more modern version of the single.

the difference is that comics are mostly sold single issue. and most times when the equivalent of the album is put together you wont get the b side that completes the arc itll usually be spiderman xx-zz but wont include the ghost rider crossover if you buy the album you want the whole thing. publishers do this to boost sales on a book in single issue but what about the reader who only buys trades. hes going to download it.

i think what your eventually going to see is marvel using the immediate release exception out there for books they want to push. youll have to wait 6 mos for xmen but hey try the new thor. by creating the limited market they can push new or underselling books digitally to expose them to new readers. what you may not have bought youll read digitally and possibly reconsider. so instead of that book being ordered by your lcs not selling and taking up space it will be available online.

[Brenticles]

Originally Posted by Mark Cardwell

Yup, given a choice, people will pick hassle-free and legal. If, however, they don't have that choice, they'll pursue other options (i.e. illegal and potentially hassle-tastic).

Marvel's current option is a half-arsed fudge: legal, hassle-tastic, and prohibitively expensive.

It's hardly rocket science: everybody get together, Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Image; pick a preferred open platform; and start a iTunes for comics.

I have already joined the Marvel digital comics site. It's not perfect, in fact it has a lot of flaws, but it is legal, and that really matters to me. When DC starts their site I'll join that one too. In fact I feel so strongly about it I'm sending DC a letter with proof of purchase to the Marvel site and asking them to start their own as soon as possible. I've tried Zuda and I'm just not interested. I want digital versions of the comics featuring DC superheroes and I'm willing to pay for it.

Besides, Marvel's offer is first generation for them and that never works out that well. I plan on writing them as well letting them know my opinions. I believe it to be more important to support the legal digital format than the better, but illegal, format. And I agree, if those four companies got together and standardized a format and platform it would be huge.