THE Z-CULT FM SAGA: TALKING TO SERJ & ZOG

[khuxford]

Originally Posted by Predabot1

Indeed, why could that possibly be, Mr Johnston... :\

I notice that since I had a gander last time in this thread, the international factor has come slightly into discussion.
In my experience, most of the people that download pirated comics, seem to be from outside of the US, and in countrys that have somewhat bad economy in comparison to the US, or from countries where the distribution and sale of American comics, are slim to nill.

There are for instance, quite a few from former Soviet republics and South-east asia. In these and many other countries ( such as my own), US law has no validity whatsoever. And that's something that I think everyone have to accept and take into consideration.

Let me paint a scenario for you:

A friend of mine pays for, and imports an issue of Final Crisis, that he has to pay TWICE the cover-price for, because of the costs of shipping the damn thing across the atlantic. He then goes on to scan said issue, and spread it trough certain file-sharing venues with me and a number of his other mates. We then in turn, spread it further.

In our country he has then done nothing wrong... he's perfectly innocent, and he has payed for the issue, so that we, all of his mates, won't have to. With our meager student-money. Naturally the scan is spread like wildfire globally within a few days.

But can he, or any number of the pirates outside of the US be blamed for this?? Can Rich Johnston or Dan Didio come to me or my mates house and demand money upfront for scanning or downloading one of their comics, even tho according to the limits of the laws that WE abide by, we HAVEN'T done anything wrong??

Is this feasible..?

Ugh...you're basing your assumption that most comic book downloads occur outside the US on anecdotal evidence, at best. And it is still illegal...likely much more so even in your native land than you think. It is theft...and it isn't an essential. You can live without comic books, so the state of an economy doesn't come into play. How great are the personal economies of the publishers, creators, and retailers if you keep stealing from them? If you don't care about their income, why the hell should they care about yours?

[Predabot1]

Fair enough on the evidence-question Khuxford. I only have my own experience to go on, that's really all I've got. But do YOU have any evidence likewise, to utterly contradict my own theories, regarding the foreign contra domestic quota of the comic-pirate population?

Thought not.

Also, I've mentioned this in the past, and apparently I have to KEEP saying it... violating the copyright to various levels is NOT globally, universally considered to be the exact same thing, and sometimes not even comparable to, as theft!

And Khuxford, I would appreciate it if you kept this debate civil and not to resort to cursing, it is demeaning and degrading of both sides to resort to such.

[khuxford]

Originally Posted by Predabot1

Fair enough on the evidence-question Khuxford. I only have my own experience to go on, that's really all I've got. But do YOU have any evidence likewise, to utterly contradict my own theories, regarding the foreign contra domestic quota of the comic-pirate population?

Thought not.

Also, I've mentioned this in the past, and apparently I have to KEEP saying it... violating the copyright to various levels is NOT globally, universally considered to be the exact same thing, and sometimes not even comparable to, as theft!

And Khuxford, I would appreciate it if you kept this debate civil and not to resort to cursing, it is demeaning and degrading of both sides to resort to such.

And where did I say it was universal? I said that it is theft in more places than you likely think, given how dismissive you are of it. And I said that it is illegal in many more places than you probably acknowledge.

Cursing? Oh for the love of...fine...why the heck should they care about the economy of the countries where foreigners are downloading their books if those people don't give a pahtoot about the income of the publishers, creators, and retailers that are all losing out by their property being illegally shared across the internet? Now...since I took out the cussing...will you answer it instead of dodging it with a language complaint?

Edit: by the way...I am not asserting as fact that it is mostly Americans downloading the books...so I don't need to have any evidence to back it up. I know enough to not go around making wild assumptions without any evidence to back it up.

[Predabot1]

Khuxford, you worded "..likely much more.." and "It is theft..." as two completely separate sentences. Therefore, it is only logical that you meant the later to be interpreted as something generalized.

I see no snafu' in the communication here, that seems to be your stance.

The simple answer to your earlier question will of course be that since I mentioned that among the places where there are pirates is where said comics are NOT being sold in a locally available manor, or for prices wich cuts the market down to an immensely small group, then there would likely have been very little money to lose there.

Most likely, the piracy of the pirated comics have come from what I mentioned above, and not as a result of the inverse. They found out about these comics online, but alas... Not sold, or not sold fairly to their market.

In essence, the loss of sales seems to be minimal with the current way and level of distributing and selling these comics.

[JoeZhang]

amazing how all those poor starving people are unable to afford comics but seem to have no trouble getting access to high speed broadband Internet connections to get the comics with.

I'm been to a number of comic sharing hubs and the amount of people from developing nations or from places where there is no distribution networks can be counted on one hand - the majority of people stealing comics are just too mean to support creators and want something for nothing.

[khuxford]

Originally Posted by Predabot1

Khuxford, you worded "..likely much more.." and "It is theft..." as two completely separate sentences. Therefore, it is only logical that you meant the later to be interpreted as something generalized.

I see no snafu' in the communication here, that seems to be your stance.

The simple answer to your earlier question will of course be that since I mentioned that among the places where there are pirates is where said comics are NOT being sold in a locally available manor, or for prices wich cuts the market down to an immensely small group, then there would likely have been very little money to lose there.

Most likely, the piracy of the pirated comics have come from what I mentioned above, and not as a result of the inverse. They found out about these comics online, but alas... Not sold, or not sold fairly to their market.

In essence, the loss of sales seems to be minimal with the current way and level of distributing and selling these comics.

Loss of sales or not, you're taking product you have absolutely no right to. Whether it is legally called theft in your nation, it is, morally, theft. You CAN purchase it...you just don't like the price you'd have to pay for it...so you take it for free and concoct this nonsense to justify it.

If you want it, buy it. If you don't want to pay the price for the product, live without it. There are other forms of entertainment out there for you...oh wait...you'll probably just steal those, too.

[Wild Irish]

What's funny to me is, all these guys rip their comics apart, then work for DAYS scanning all of these comics manually into their computers, adjusting everything in CS2 so it looks perfect. All that effort just to read a comic.

Marvel already HAS all of the images converted to digital--they're already perfect. They could just put them in a .cbr/.pdf themselves and charge $0.99 and they'd triple their readership. It can't be possible that they haven't thought of that yet, so what's the hold-up?

[The Funketeer]

Originally Posted by khuxford

If you want it, buy it. If you don't want to pay the price for the product, live without it. There are other forms of entertainment out there for you...oh wait...you'll probably just steal those, too.

If I buy a comic book and lend it to you to read, are you then also stealing? You didn't pay for it but are still viewing the content. Is that also morally theft in your book?

[The Funketeer]

Originally Posted by Wild Irish

What's funny to me is, all these guys rip their comics apart, then work for DAYS scanning all of these comics manually into their computers, adjusting everything in CS2 so it looks perfect. All that effort just to read a comic.

Marvel already HAS all of the images converted to digital--they're already perfect. They could just put them in a .cbr/.pdf themselves and charge $0.99 and they'd triple their readership. It can't be possible that they haven't thought of that yet, so what's the hold-up?

My guess would be that they are trying to create or perfect some kind of DRM for the files. No use selling them for $.99 if someone can just email it to a buddy for free.

[khuxford]

Originally Posted by The Funketeer

If I buy a comic book and lend it to you to read, are you then also stealing? You didn't pay for it but are still viewing the content. Is that also morally theft in your book?

Ugh...are we really back to that nonsense? No...if you buy it, you can let anyone read your physical copy. You can let every friend you have over your house read it. You can give it to someone and ask that they give it to someone else after they finish. BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE IT INSTANTLY AVAILABLE TO THE FREE WORLD FOR DOWNLOAD FROM YOUR COMPUTER OR MAKE COPIES TO DISTRIBUTE.

It really isn't that difficult to see the difference...unless you're blindly looking to justify the theft.

[The Funketeer]

Originally Posted by khuxford

Ugh...are we really back to that nonsense? No...if you buy it, you can let anyone read your physical copy. You can let every friend you have over your house read it. You can give it to someone and ask that they give it to someone else after they finish. BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE IT INSTANTLY AVAILABLE TO THE FREE WORLD FOR DOWNLOAD FROM YOUR COMPUTER OR MAKE COPIES TO DISTRIBUTE.

It really isn't that difficult to see the difference...unless you're blindly looking to justify the theft.

But by your logic, both are theft. One is just on a much larger scale. Morally, however, that shouldn't make a difference.

[khuxford]

Originally Posted by The Funketeer

But by your logic, both are theft. One is just on a much larger scale. Morally, however, that shouldn't make a difference.

No...one isn't even close to being theft. You OWN that book. You can do with it whatever you like. You CAN scan it if you want, you just can't go giving the scanned files to anyone else or retaining it after getting rid of the original. Just like it has been established that you can make a mix tape from your own tapes and CDs, but it is illegal to make such a tape and give it away to others.

[Generic Eric]

Originally Posted by The Funketeer

But by your logic, both are theft. One is just on a much larger scale. Morally, however, that shouldn't make a difference.

Fair use versus distribution. The former is legal, the latter is not. Publishers are ok with you sharing your physical purchase, not become a distributer of said product by making duplications phyically or digitally.

[Generic Eric]

If I buy a comic book and lend it to you to read, are you then also stealing? You didn't pay for it but are still viewing the content. Is that also morally theft in your book?

Physical copies deteriate with use. Digital copies are infinitly distributal. Differances in scale. If a friend would like to own a pysical copy of said comic they would have to buy thier own copy.

[Alan Coil]

MARVEL COMICS ARE---ARE---COVERED BY INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT LAWS !!

So are DC, Dark Horse, and all the others.

It's called the Berne Convention. Look it up.

Berne Convention first adopted in 1886, over 120 years ago. It has been changed several times over the years.

Over 160 countries are members of the Berne Convention.

"How ya like dem apples?"

[Bent Corner]

Originally Posted by Alan Coil

MARVEL COMICS ARE---ARE---COVERED BY INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT LAWS !!

There's no such thing as international copyright laws. Each country has it's own copyright laws and they vary from country to country. The Berne Convention is a treaty, not a law.