What the hell is wrong with DC lately? [ID Crisis, Nightwing, GL, etc.]

[Johnny Triangles]

DC has really been disgusting me of late with its gratuitous violence. Don't get me wrong, I'm no prude. I have no problem with sex and violence in comic books, but I don't want them there in a gratuitous way strictly for shock value. Rape, murder and depression should only be used in pursuit of a good story, not as an end in and of itself to prove that your comics are mature and cutting edge.

I mean, let's review: Nightwing, raped. Sue Dibny, raped on-panel, then murdered and burned. Flash's wife, attacked while pregnant and caused to have a miscarriage. Atom's wife attacked and hanged. Now Green Lantern's mom has been killed and stuffed in an oven?!?

I can't believe the same onlne community that was crying for the heads of Jemas and Quesada can somehow stand behind what DC is doing to these iconic figures! What hypocrisy!! Oh but wait, as long as the creators are "true to continuity," everything else is forgiveable, right?

Not only is this present direction tacky, but it just makes little business sense. DC has two great comicbook related TV series in the forms of JLU and Teen Titans. COmbine that with a big mainstream media push for Identity Crisis and you have a lot of potential for parents to buy some Justice League related comics for their kids. Not only will the parents likely be disgusted by the gruesome, tacky content, but the kids will be turned off by the impenetrable continuity present in Identity Crisis.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what they have in store to "top" themselves in ID Crisis #4.

[rjjb7]

Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles


I'm really looking forward to seeing what they have in store to "top" themselves in ID Crisis #4.

I think that's the cannabilism issue.

[Arch Enemy]

I love what DC's been doing lately. They're getting intense as hell, slapping us upside the head with hardcore events that yeild to dramatic consequences, all the while staying true and sticking to the core of their superheroes -- as they're not 'decostuming' or revealing everyone's identities in the process.

Here's to hoping that they keep tearing down the house and burning up our superhero-addicted brains with unexpected shocks and with their own, excellent brand of superhero madness for many years to come...

[Johnny Triangles]

Originally posted by Arch Enemy
I love what DC's been doing lately. They're getting intense as hell, slapping us upside the head with hardcore events that yeild to dramatic consequences, all the while staying true and sticking to the core of their superheroes -- as they're not 'decostuming' or revealing everyone's identities in the process.

Here's to hoping that they keep tearing down the house and burning up our superhero-addicted brains with unexpected shocks and with their own, excellent brand of superhero madness for many years to come...

BUt that's the point: they AREN'T staying true to the core of their superheroes. Self-doubting amoral people who can't protect their loved ones, tamper with criminals' minds, contemplate murder, and lie to their comrades about their misdeeds for years?!? Don't confuse getting all the continuity details right with getting the spirit of the characters right.

Many people compare ID Crisis to Watchmen: Silver Age heroes with feet of clay presented as ineffectual, wishy-washy hand-wringers who are constantly overwhelmed by the rigors of superhero life and make many questionable choices. But there's a difference with Watchmen: it was a LIMITED SERIES. Alan Moore realized that you couldn't do long-term work with such innefectual, deeply flawed wimpy deconstructed heroes, because they'd have no real credibility in the long run. That's why he had to use analogues for the Charlton heroes rather than use the real versions. If he did that story in-continuity with the real Charlton Heroes, good luck using them in any ongoing series afterwards.

DC wants to present its heroes as too noble too kill, but by deconstructing it's heroes so excessively and painting them as wishy-washy hand-wringers who can't even protect their loved ones (and themselves) from rape and murder, the only thing DC has succeeded in doing is presenting them as is chumps. I really want to see how these characters can possibly have any credibility in future stories.

[Arch Enemy]

[i]DC wants to present its heroes as too noble too kill, but by deconstructing it's heroes so excessively and painting them as wishy-washy hand-wringers who can't even protect their loved ones (and themselves) from rape and murder, the only thing DC has succeeded in doing is presenting them as is chumps.[/b]

I don't see it that way. I think that DC has given their characters more dimension with these harrowing events. They've now shown these super-characters to be as vulnerable as they are powerful, and in doing so, they've given us stories without the same old, worn-out and predictable outcomes of yester-year.

DC has been giving us stories with true (and I'll use this important word again) 'consequence', and this one element alone is what's keeping me coming back to their fold month after month; it's what's keeping me spending much more cash on their product than I'd really prefer to be spending, as I am not a rich individual.

Really though, It's not that I think you're "wrong." I just see it differently, and more often than not it seems, the same exact subject or object can be one person's dreaded bane, but in another similar instance it can also be another soul's priceless bounty.

"Eye of the beholder" and all that shite, y'know?

[paulski]

Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles
Now Green Lantern's mom has been killed and stuffed in an oven?!?

An oven? Really?

Man, Major Force has got a nasty little sense of humour there, doesn't he?

[aphterburn]

It’s consequence. I suppose the heroes should do battle of little to average consequence with a no-too-vicious villain as to not upset sensitive readers and call it a day with their capes flapping in the wind on the edge of a tall building. That’s not interesting. Let's just focus on making all comics more palatable for kids.

Screw spirit of the characters crap. Heroes who never enter the gray area and are not put through the paces for what they do, do not typically make for interesting reads. I’m sorry the balance traditionalism is upset, but there are some great stories coming out right now. By the way, I haven’t seen any “hand wringing” in any of the aforementioned stories.

This is the second time I’ve seen the Watchmen being a limited series argument used when talking about current DC comics and I think it’s hogwash. So Watchmen upped the ante for future stories, but an ongoing universe can’t afford to have consequence, character depth and realism? Right.

There are tons of comics that kids can read and I don't think a shared universe necessarily means that all books take on the same tone at the same time.

[sweetchristmas]

Originally posted by rjjb7
I think that's the cannabilism issue.

Nah.... Incest.... lots and lots of incest.

[Johnny Triangles]

Originally posted by aphterburn
It’s consequence. I suppose the heroes should do battle of little to average consequence with a no-too-vicious villain as to not upset sensitive readers and call it a day with their capes flapping in the wind on the edge of a tall building. That’s not interesting. Let's just focus on making all comics more palatable for kids.

Screw spirit of the characters crap. Heroes who never enter the gray area and are not put through the paces for what they do, do not typically make for interesting reads. I’m sorry the balance traditionalism is upset, but there are some great stories coming out right now. By the way, I haven’t seen any “hand wringing” in any of the aforementioned stories.

This is the second time I’ve seen the Watchmen being a limited series argument used when talking about current DC comics and I think it’s hogwash. So Watchmen upped the ante for future stories, but an ongoing universe can’t afford to have consequence, character depth and realism? Right.

There are tons of comics that kids can read and I don't think a shared universe necessarily means that all books take on the same tone at the same time.

But the problem is that all the books in the DCU mainstream ARE taking the same tone at the same time. All the DCU books that are Justice League related are just super-depressing and super-violent dreck, reminescent of when the market got oversaturated with grim and gritty crap and imploded. And all to prove one thing: secret identities are good.

I don't mind having noble characters enter the grey area, but DC characters basically live there now. They're all developing feet of clay in the pursuit of realism and it's just making them uninspiring and depressing. If EVERY LAST character is amoral and in the grey area, what's the point? Where's the point of comparison? It just becomes an exercise in cynicism. I hate when people think that the only way to make characters relatable is to make them weak, insecure and indecisive.

I loved Daredevil: Born Again, but I don't want a whole comics universe becoming the equivalent of that storyline at the same time. That's just as boring as a whole comics universe being rosy peachy-keen all the time, and nausea inducing to boot.

[Von Raven]

Originally posted by Arch Enemy
I love what DC's been doing lately. They're getting intense as hell, slapping us upside the head with hardcore events that yeild to dramatic consequences, all the while staying true and sticking to the core of their superheroes -- as they're not 'decostuming' or revealing everyone's identities in the process.

I agree...I like how things in the DC universe are heating up and how the status quo is shaken up.

It's a good year to read DC.

[Von Raven]

Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles
Many people compare ID Crisis to Watchmen: Silver Age heroes with feet of clay presented as ineffectual, wishy-washy hand-wringers .

I didn't find any "Wishy-washy hand-wringers" in either the Watchmen or Identity Crisis...especially with ID #3.

[Von Raven]

What about the cannibalistic, lustful hulk?

[Johnny Triangles]

Originally posted by Von Raven
I didn't find any "Wishy-washy hand-wringers" in either the Watchmen or Identity Crisis...especially with ID #3.

Watchmen was wall-to-wall hand-wringing, except for Rorscharch. But it was brilliant, close-ended story.

Identity Crisis is part of an overall decline that has no end in sight. And the JLA came off especially bad in ID #3: still afraid to tell Superman the truth, the revelation that more villains were mindwiped, and an overall inability to effectively take out a glorified martial artist. The funniest part of the book is when Green Lantern is giving an internal speech that's supposed to impress the fanboys about the JLA: "The Justice League? They teach you how to FIGHT" And suddenly they dogpile on the villain like a bunch of 12 year old girls, kicking, biting and scratching, for the second time in two issues. I guess the JLA DOES teach you to fight: like a girl scout troop.

Think about it, would you ever see the Avengers or X-Men having to dogpile a enhanced martial artist?

[ComicsareLit]

Hello.

Sorry, but could someone explain this:

Nightwing, raped.

I have not followed the book, lately, so do you mean Nightwing himself was raped, or a character close to him?

[cncoyle]

Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles
Not only is this present direction tacky, but it just makes little business sense. DC has two great comicbook related TV series in the forms of JLU and Teen Titans.

Which is EXACTLY why DC has the new Johnny DC line, including Teen Titans Go! and Justice League Unlimited. If you're a parent and want some all-ages accessibility, they're right there waiting for the young'uns (in age, at heart, or both).

[Johnny Triangles]

Originally posted by cncoyle
Which is EXACTLY why DC has the new Johnny DC line, including Teen Titans Go! and Justice League Unlimited. If you're a parent and want some all-ages accessibility, they're right there waiting for the young'uns (in age, at heart, or both).

Agreed. But (a) it's only a handful of books, and (b) none of those are being pushed in the mainstream press. Identity Crisis however is being pushed to comic "laymen" at large in the mainstream press. Hard.

[Von Raven]

Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles
Watchmen was wall-to-wall hand-wringing, except for Rorscharch. But it was brilliant, close-ended story.

Sorry, but I don't see it. Wishy Washy means lacking in character or determination and it can also mean lacking strength or flavor.

None of which, as I see it, applies to either The Watchmen or the Identity Crisis characters or the storytelling.

What I found in both, were strong personalities, more plausible heroes, whose mortality and flaws only made them more of a champion during their acts of heroism in my eyes.

Superman and Wonder Woman should be almost flawless, but that's about it.

Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles
Think about it, would you ever see the Avengers or X-Men having to dogpile a enhanced martial artist?

Deathstroke is more than merely an enhanced martial artist. He's also a master assassin and tactician.

I didn't have too much of a problem with that...except with the Flash. With his speed, he should've been able to reach Deathstroke before the Terminator could even move...or at least see Deathstroke start to move and avoid the blade.

Unless, of course, DC is upgrading Deathstroke and making him even more UBER than he was in the Titans.

[Von Raven]

Originally posted by ComicsareLit
Hello.

Sorry, but could someone explain this:

Nightwing, raped.

I have not followed the book, lately, so do you mean Nightwing himself was raped, or a character close to him?

I have a problem with people calling this rape.

It's kind of hard (no pun intended) for a woman to physically rape a man--in the sense that some claim Tarantula has...I mean, if he has no desire, there's no iron to place in the forge.

It was more that Tarantula took advantage of Nightwing in his shell-shocked state...but he was a consenting adult.

If he didn't want to have sex with her, there was no way she could've forced him.

Troubled Man+Very Hot Woman Coming Onto Him=Sex (usually)

[cncoyle]

Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles
Agreed. But (a) it's only a handful of books, and (b) none of those are being pushed in the mainstream press. Identity Crisis however is being pushed to comic "laymen" at large in the mainstream press. Hard.

Okay, but with Identity Crisis they're also pushing the author, Brad Meltzer. What kind of novels does he write? Crime/mystery. It's not that much of a stretch that he'll use similar themes, even if it's set in the world of "funny book" characters.

[algertman]

JLA: "The Justice League? They teach you how to FIGHT"

are you sure that wasn't green arrow who said that?

i could have sworn it was

[Von Raven]

Originally posted by algertman
JLA: "The Justice League? They teach you how to FIGHT"

are you sure that wasn't green arrow who said that?

i could have sworn it was

I believe it was Green Arrow who said that.

[GenXMaverick]

Originally posted by Von Raven
Sorry, but I don't see it. Wishy Washy means lacking in character or determination and it can also mean lacking strength or flavor. None of which, as I see it, applies to either The Watchmen or the Identity Crisis characters or the storytelling. What I found in both, were strong personalities, more plausible heroes, whose mortality and flaws only made them more of a champion during their acts of heroism in my eyes. Superman and Wonder Woman should be almost flawless, but that's about it.

Deathstroke is more than merely an enhanced martial artist. He's also a master assassin and tactician. I didn't have too much of a problem with that...except with the Flash. With his speed, he should've been able to reach Deathstroke before the Terminator could even move...or at least see Deathstroke start to move and avoid the blade.

Unless, of course, DC is upgrading Deathstroke and making him even more UBER than he was in the Titans.

Von Raven...

Triangles is the same poster who alleges that New Teen Titans by Marv Wolfman & George Perez were nothing but a bunch of "likeable wimps" who just whined all the time.

Whereas the X-Men and the Avengers never whine or complain about anything.

[Von Raven]

Originally posted by GenXMaverick
Von Raven...

Triangles is the same poster who alleges that New Teen Titans by Marv Wolfman & George Perez were nothing but a bunch of "likeable wimps" who just whined all the time.

Oh, that's right...I was in that discussion as well. So, same arguement, different comics though.

Originally posted by GenXMaverick
Whereas the X-Men and the Avengers never whine or
complain about anything.

I disagree with him about this.

I'm reading Marvel Master Works, the NEW X-men and man did Cyclops whine alot about his "cursed eyes" and how he'd never be rid of them.

Wolverine, Thunderbird and Banshee complained about everything, it seemed.

[cyclopsfan]

Originally posted by paulski
An oven? Really?

Man, Major Force has got a nasty little sense of humour there, doesn't he?

what's funny is that they even make a joke out of the refridgerator death.

[Kent Horton]

Originally posted by rjjb7
I think that's the cannabilism issue.

Heh, you may be more correct than you think - Copperhead's supposed to have gone on a cannibalism spree before being locked up and put on trial in Manhunter #1, and the Manhunter series is supposed to spring out of Identity Crisis in some way . . .