Marvel Max Line

[Marxist 64]

I know it's been discussed before, but what do you think of Marvel's Max line and how would you handle it.

Presently there is two Max books, The Punisher and Supreme Power but at one time there was a healthy bunch of Marvel Mature titles (Alias was the leader in many people's mind). But ofcourse, many titles didn't sell (Ant-Man) and were dropped after 1 or 2 issues.

Now, we have Icon, the creater owned imprint. Wouldn't it make sense to place the current Max books on that. Yes I know Icon is for creator owned works, but Supreme Power has kept it's writer and artist and so has The Punisher, making it creator owned, but with lisenced properties (kinda like the way many people saw X-Statix).

They're my thoughts on the matter, so please give yours.

[bigmentalross]

Originally posted by Marxist 64
I know it's been discussed before, but what do you think of Marvel's Max line and how would you handle it.

Presently there is two Max books, The Punisher and Supreme Power but at one time there was a healthy bunch of Marvel Mature titles (Alias was the leader in many people's mind). But ofcourse, many titles didn't sell (Ant-Man) and were dropped after 1 or 2 issues.

Now, we have Icon, the creater owned imprint. Wouldn't it make sense to place the current Max books on that. Yes I know Icon is for creator owned works, but Supreme Power has kept it's writer and artist and so has The Punisher, making it creator owned, but with lisenced properties (kinda like the way many people saw X-Statix).

They're my thoughts on the matter, so please give yours.

Umm...

Ant-Man wasn't dropped for not selling. It was cancelled before it was ever released as was Way's Deathlok mini.

I don't understand why Supreme Power or The Punisher would move to Icon (although at least a case could, technically, be argued for Supreme Power despite it being based on another series to go but The Punisher is still part of the Marvel Universe in a very detached way).

What is really needed is more MAX titles but they need to be of a high quality or they won't sell and it seems like a bad idea to put big name writers and artists on projects which will only reach a more limited audience when Marvel can put them on a big-name Marvel U title.

Still, I'd like to see more miniseries like the MAX line used to have back in the day which were out of continuity and allowed the characters to do things we wouldn't usually see (kind of like Ant-Man would have been. Now THAT would have been a good series).

Oh well...

[Marxist 64]

Sorry for the Ant-Man mix up. I thought that the Max Punisher was complety detatched from the mainline Marvel Universe, so Ennis could completly do what he wanted, both with the violence and the character.

[JK Parkin]

Originally posted by Marxist 64
Now, we have Icon, the creater owned imprint. Wouldn't it make sense to place the current Max books on that. Yes I know Icon is for creator owned works, but Supreme Power has kept it's writer and artist and so has The Punisher, making it creator owned, but with lisenced properties (kinda like the way many people saw X-Statix).

Well, I think the difference is that Mack owns Kabuki and Bendis/Oeming own Powers, but despite Ennis writing Punisher for so long, he doesn't have any legal rights to the property ... hence, Punisher isn't "creator owned." Neither or X-Statix or Supreme Power.

But Icon and MAX are simply branding that allow Marvel to market certain books together and tell customers what type of content they can expect from books with the emblem on the cover. There's really no reason why all the books couldn't be in a line called Icon or MAX or Marvel Knights or Joe's Crazy Comics or just plain "Marvel."

As for the books themselves, Alias and Supreme Power are really the only two that have done anything for me. Like bigmentalross said, it's about the quality.

[JK Parkin]

Originally posted by Marxist 64
Sorry for the Ant-Man mix up. I thought that the Max Punisher was complety detatched from the mainline Marvel Universe, so Ennis could completly do what he wanted, both with the violence and the character.

I think you are correct on that last part; the move was to allow more mature content in the book. I'm curious to see it will ever have Wolverine or Daredevil in it while it's under the MAX banner.

[Way Fresh]

Originally posted by JK Phoenix

But Icon and MAX are simply branding that allow Marvel to market certain books together and tell customers what type of content they can expect from books with the emblem on the cover.

If Icon is just creator owned how does that let people know what the content of the books will be? I would guess that different creators go in different directions with their titles. I've never read Kabuki, but I'm under the impression that it is nothing like Powers. Maybe they are both "mature"? If that's the case, then I think putting them under the Max banner makes sense. I can understand the Max line in that it's more graphic, but stuff like Icon seems like labeling just for the sake of labeling.

[The_Adventurer]

MAX was a botched experiment. It should have been Marvel's Vertigo line with a diverse line of quality mature books for adults. Instead we got childish gore and more of the same that we were already getting out of the MU Knights.


Only Apachie Skies, Howard the Duck, and maybe Alias ever achieved what I was hoping MAX would be about.

There is no reason he Violent gore books couldn't stick with the Knights line and have a Mature Lable message on the cover.

[Blind Assassin]

Originally posted by The_Adventurer
MAX was a botched experiment. It should have been Marvel's Vertigo line with a diverse line of quality mature books for adults. Instead we got childish gore and more of the same that we were already getting out of the MU Knights.


Only Apachie Skies, Howard the Duck, and maybe Alias ever achieved what I was hoping MAX would be about.

There is no reason he Violent gore books couldn't stick with the Knights line and have a Mature Lable message on the cover.

Yeah, and if 'Marvel Max' had been like DC's Vertigo line, people would have cried "Marvel is copying DC's successes', so either way, Marvel would have lost no matter what they did.

Marvel Max was great. Alias (as you said) was phenomenal. The Black Widos: Pale Little Spider mini was phenomenal, CAGE was excellent, Rawhide Kid was hilarious, and Supreme Power just rocks.

Everyone keeps saying that Marvel should have something like Vertigo, which is so diverse and blah blah blah. And yet, every month, you see Marvel titles trouncing Vertigo titles again and again. Y: The last Man, which everyone claims to love is the higest selling Vertigo book ranking in at #89. Doesn't look like people are clamoring for too much diversity, does it?

[The_Adventurer]

Rawhide Kid, Cage, and Spream Power is everything that's WRONG with the Max line. IMO of course.


And I definitly wouldn't have cared if MAX was copying Vertigo, because I want MORE, More money backing the indy type books.

[SuperginraiX]

Still, it's good to know it's there. I'm not MAX's biggest fan, but I did buy the USWarmachine issues and loved 'em. I tried Fury out, but barely made it through the first issue. I guess I'm more of a PG kinda guy, but I know not everyone is that way. What I'd like to see out of MAX would be a title like Sandman. Something that's adult oriented but not really super graphic. Possibly a Strange Tales or something around that line. It'd also be nice to see adult oriented titles based on the XMen or Avengers... but good luck trying to name them.

MAX books will mosly likely not break the Top Ten or anything (at least not consistantly), but diversity in comics is definitely not a bad thing.

[JK Parkin]

Originally posted by Way Fresh
If Icon is just creator owned how does that let people know what the content of the books will be?

It distinguishes them as not being "Marvel" books, i.e. featuring characters from the Marvel Universe. But yeah, that's weak.

Originally posted by Way Fresh
I can understand the Max line in that it's more graphic, but stuff like Icon seems like labeling just for the sake of labeling.

I agree, hence my "Joe's Crazy Comics" comment. It's all "branding-building" BS, probably suggested by someone in marketing who went to a conference or needs to justify their MBA. Marvel has already built their core brand, "Marvel," to a point where just having the word "Marvel" on the cover and having access to their distribution and reputation is going to help sell more copies of Powers and Kabuki than an Icon label.

And I guess "Icon" is supposed to refer to the creators involved, but when I hear it, I think of "iconic" characters, like Spider-Man, Superman, etc. whihc is kind of the opposite of what it is.

[Bricktop]

Originally posted by SuperginraiX
It'd also be nice to see adult oriented titles based on the XMen or Avengers... but good luck trying to name them.

Certain characters are off-limit to the Max line, like Wolverine and Spiderman and other characters that appeal to a younger audience. This is part of the reason Bendis stopped Alias and turned it into The Pulse.

[Marxist 64]

But there was loads of "guest stars" in Alais. Not just the B-Heroes, the Avengers and Spiderman featured in the origin story and the series kicked off with a story featureing Captain America if I'm not mistaken.

I don't see the Pulse as Alias. I see the main character of Alias moving into another title. I don't think the Max line should become more like Vertigo, cause Vertigo is and will be Vertigo. Max for me was taking under-used characters and using them in a different way. That's all ended now, and I think that the Max books could easily move to Icon or vica versa.

[Randy A]

I dunno, maybe its just me, but what i expect from Max is foul language, gore, and nudity. I have figured thats what it was from the first time i heard about it. Maybe it does appeal to the more childish 13 year old boy in me, but i do like it from time to time. 2 titles works for me too, its not overdoing it, but im getting a little bit of variety. but hey, thats just me.

[DilithiumDragon]

Not to change subjects, but a thought.

According to Rich, Marvel isn't too happy with using their properties in adult ventures, as it could potentially detonate their chances to launch a movie franchise off the character.

So why not make a clone of the character, ala Supreme Power is of the JLA?

You could make a MAX Avengers book that is clone-copied of the Avengers, far enough apart that they wouldn't ruin their movie chances, but close enough that we'd get a mature Avengers book.

[Randy A]

Originally posted by DilithiumDragon
You could make a MAX Avengers book that is clone-copied of the Avengers, far enough apart that they wouldn't ruin their movie chances, but close enough that we'd get a mature Avengers book.

Wasn't that already done in The Authority?

[The_Adventurer]

Originally posted by DilithiumDragon

You could make a MAX Avengers book that is clone-copied of the Avengers, far enough apart that they wouldn't ruin their movie chances, but close enough that we'd get a mature Avengers book.

It's called The Ultimates

[Goldenboy]

2 titles that NEED to be MAX.

Ghost Rider

Shang Chi (I know this was done before but it needs an ongoing)

[DilithiumDragon]

Originally posted by The_Adventurer
It's called The Ultimates

Hal0, I haven't read the Authority.

Adventure, I would agree The Ultimates is edgy, but hardly mature. It's all-ages, and can only push the envelope so far before it falls of the desk. And really, is "mature" just taking risky political stances, with large green hulks run around talking about how horny they are?

[Randy A]

Originally posted by Goldenboy
2 titles that NEED to be MAX.

Ghost Rider

Shang Chi (I know this was done before but it needs an ongoing)

I would absolutely love a Ghost Rider Max comic.

[DilithiumDragon]

Originally posted by hal0
I would absolutely love a Ghost Rider Max comic.

Heck, I'd buy Ghost Rider if he were Marvel Age. He's a favorite character of mine.

[Bricktop]

Originally posted by Marxist 64
But there was loads of "guest stars" in Alais. Not just the B-Heroes, the Avengers and Spiderman featured in the origin story and the series kicked off with a story featureing Captain America if I'm not mistaken.

I don't see the Pulse as Alias. I see the main character of Alias moving into another title. I don't think the Max line should become more like Vertigo, cause Vertigo is and will be Vertigo. Max for me was taking under-used characters and using them in a different way. That's all ended now, and I think that the Max books could easily move to Icon or vica versa.

What I said earlier was something I remember reading long ago. I'm sure having Spidey swing by or any other hero as a minor plot point was fine, but there was a editorial decrie (for lack of a better word) keeping certain characters out of the max line (i.e. No Spider-Man max series, or no story line where Peter kills a b*tch, that sort of thing. The concern, besides the underling movie thing stated earlier, was that a MAX book with Spider-Man (and such) on the cover would get picked up by the wrong hands. I agree Pulse is not a toned down Alias, but I think that Bendis wanted to keep Jessca around, and added her to his idea for Pulse.

[YDLM]

A few res[onses to things said above.

1. Cage was offensive piece of crap, I havent ran into one black writer or artists who thought otherwise. Azz deserves a wedgie for that one.

2.I like the Max Format because it address an audience that Marvel would be foolish not to cater a little too. I am glad that the Punisher is only in Max format because this character is too extreme to be properly told in an all ages format.

3. I wouldnt mind seeing Marvel's future horror related propeties like Ghost Rider,Blade, and Dracula being in this format.I also think that Weapon X would be right at home in this format.

4.With Marvel supposed all ages mandate, the need for the Max is made that much more important.

5.I dont want to see Marvel Vertigo, hell I dont really have any interest in DC vertigo.Like BA said earlier, if that what the Max became Marvel would have been vilified for it.

6.Give me quality "adult" stories and not Skinimax stories.

[The_Adventurer]

I don't like this idea of Marvel getting called on copying Vertigo if MAX was more like Vertigo.


Vertigo is a Semi-Creator Owned imprint of DC where mostly adult titles are published. Note, this doesn't Mean "Edgy" like MAX seems to catter too.

DC doesn't own the consept of Mature Creator Owened work, Image does it, Dark Horse does it, many Indy companies do it.

Marvel is shooting themselves in the foot NOT doing it.