THE FRANK TIERI/GARTH ENNIS 'BATTLE'

[MattBrady]

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/WOLVIE186cvr.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/WOLVIE186cvr_t.jpg" width="175" height="275" align="right" border="0" alt="Wolverine #186"></a>From the outside, that is, the Tim Bradstreet covers, Wolverine’s guest appearance in Punisher #16 - #17 had the look of a fan’s dream – Frank Castle and Logan, together again. What was on the inside, however, left a few fans a little surprised – writer Garth Ennis essentially had his way with Wolverine, and not in a good way. Along with the fans’ raised eyebrows were those of Wolverine writer Frank Tieri, who's out for a little payback come February.

And, despite what the picture may suggest, it’s more than a case of Wolverine stealing one of the Punisher’s t-shirts…

“When I was asked if Garth Ennis could use Wolverine in the Punisher, I said, ‘sure, whatever,’” Tieri said. “Garth happens to be a friend of mine so I thought that would count for something, that he’d at least treat my character with a little respect.”

Given Ennis’ well-known…lack of regard for traditional super-heroes, Tieri thought Wolverine would be in safe hands. After all – Logan had been moving more towards a non-costumed adventurer with a rough edge, rather than the blue and yellow spandex-clad superhero of years past.

Yeah, Tieri would have thought that, but he would have been wrong.

“Did I have ‘sucker’ written on my forehead or what?” Tieri asked. “As anybody who read Punisher #16 and #17 can attest to, Garth did exactly what he usually does when a character guest stars in his book - see Spider-Man and Daredevil - he essentially took a big steaming piss on him!

“So, ok, Garth—you got me. Ha. Ha. Funny. But hey, I’ll play along. I don’t know about anybody else, but I for one think it’s time Garth got a taste on his own medicine—and in Wolverine #186, he most definitely will.”

<img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Wolvie1.jpg" width="250" height="145" align="left" border="0" alt="yes, Wolverine just refered to himself in the third person as a 'Canucklehead.' Dork.">An analogy to the “medicine” Tieri is angling to deliver comes courtesy of Wolverine editor Axel Alonso, who described the overall story of issue #186 in rap terms. “I think Axel meant that while rappers 'battle' each other through song, we're sort of doing the same here in comic form,” Teiri said. “Garth ‘dissed’ my character in his comic, I'm going to ‘answer’ him in mine.”

So - for as much as two white guys, one from New York, and the other originally from Ireland, can toss down in a rap style...it's on.

For readers who may have missed Ennis’ use of Wolverine in Punisher, Tieri was quick to go into detail about how Logan was abused. "You mean other than making him talk like a jackass ,blowing his face off with a shotgun, hitting him in the nuts with a baseball bat and running him over with a steam roller? I don’t know if you consider that a ‘dis’ or not, but I know a lot of Wolvie fans did - they weren’t necessarily too keen on their favorite character getting treated to the usual Ennis ‘magic.’ So for those fans out there, I’m making them a promise - you better believe Garth’s getting out-Garthed on this one, kids.

"Issue #186 will work on two levels: The first being one of the most brutal, drag down, Wolverine/Punisher fights this industry's ever seen - and no, I’m not hinting at some of the things Frank Castle has coming to him—pick up the damn book, for Crissakes! Secondly, it acts as an epilogue of sorts to the mob arc we currently have going on in Wolverine #181-185.

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/pun1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Pun1_t.jpg" width="175" height="264" align="right" border="0" alt="for some fans, this could've been the begining of somehting wonderful..."></a> “After the events of that storyline, the Punisher feels that Wolverine's dipped into his end of the swimming pool, so to speak. Logan went and stuck his nose where it doesn’t belong -- and Frank’s not too happy about it. He sets out to do something about it in the usual Punisher way—and we pick things up from there.

“What I always found great about the Punisher/Wolvie match-ups is that while there are many similarities to both these characters - both are of the ‘grim and gritty’ variety, both kill, there are many differences as well. It’s some of those differences that I intend to explore in their battle—which, in actuality, is more of a conflict of philosophies than anything else. You could say it’s sort of like a debate—with a nice mix of testosterone and blood added for good measure.”

In closing, Tieri reiterated that the abuse the Punisher suffers in Wolverine #186 is all in good fun, and, in a manner of speaking, is a tip of the hat to Ennis. “You’ve got to give credit where credit is due - Garth practically invented this sort of thing,” Tieri said. “That said, I suppose it's impossible not to be inspired by him in some way, shape or form-- even when you don't even realize it. So while I’m looking for a little “payback” where Garth’s concerned, I guess I’m tipping my hat to him, as well"

[xdemon]

Oh boy, mayhem!

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>Given Ennis’ well-known…lack of regard for traditional super-heroes

Garth did exactly what he usually does when a character guest stars in his book</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmm, only Ennis book I've ever read was Hitman and I thought that Ennis handled Superman rather well when he had him guest star on an issue.

I guess the 'S' shield can make even Ennis show more respect :) (unless editorial told him not to mess with him...)

[Clem Snide]

Wolverine hit in the nuts, run over with steam-roller etc?

These are just old Roadrunner/Wile E. Coyote routines he's recycling, aren't they?

[Salt_Gravy_Hates_U]

Punisher . . . Wolverine . . . seems familiar . . . OH NO! Glowing guns and angels! AHHHH!!

Oh wait . . . Garth Ennis eh? This looks dandy!

[csGuy]

Question: does the new 'unified' wolverine look not apply to his own title??

where's that little triangle of hair thats suppose to be on his chin??

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by Clem Snide:
<strong>These are just old Roadrunner/Wile E. Coyote routines he's recycling, aren't they?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which were Krazy Kat routines before that, and then something prior to that, going back to medieval puppet shows, weren't they?

MattB

[Grendel Prime]

Please, someone save Wolverine from Frank!

Tieri, not Castle.

[Icewing_X]

Yes, but will Wolverine #186 have midgets?

Huh, huh?

~Icewing, didn't think so

[KACH]

[quote]Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
<strong>

Hmm, only Ennis book I've ever read was Hitman and I thought that Ennis handled Superman rather well when he had him guest star on an issue.

I guess the 'S' shield can make even Ennis show more respect :) (unless editorial told him not to mess with him...)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, he also treated Batman with a bit of respect, too. Well, actually, he did have Tommy throw up on Bats' boots. But did you see Garth's treatment of Green Lantern? Hilarious! ennis even said he wanted the most ridiculous mainstream character DC had to offer, so he picked Rayner.

He handled Daredevil pretty well, I thought, in his first Punisher maxi-series . . .

--J.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by xdemon:
<strong>Oh boy, mayhem!</strong><hr></blockquote>

No no, you're missing the point entirely.

Mayhem and in-jokes.

Yep, mayhem and in-jokes, that's what's gonna help this industry reach out to new readers! :)

- Elayne

[Dan20]

By the way, has any reason been given as to why Logan's killing people right and left in his book these days? What happened to the guy who was violent but could control himself?

Oh, and I hope there's a better reason for the meeting than "Wolvie stuck his nose into Punisher's business"....I don't think Castle would care too much if someone else happened to take down some mobsters.

[John K.]

One has to remember how Ennis treated Kyle Rayner (Green Lantern) in 2 issues of Hitman. Of course this Hal Jordan fan certainly didn't mind the dressing down!

[abs_of_flab]

Well, what was Tieri expecting?

Superman and Catwoman are the only guest-starring characters to have ever come out looking good in Ennis-penned stories. Over at DC, Ennis' depictions of Batman and Green Lantern are probably the absolute WORST either character have ever been subjected to EVER and still have been published [let's see: Batman, besides acting like a brooding, relentless, world class can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees kinda guy was actually PUKED on by the Hitman, and Green Lantern was given some of the intentionally worst dialogue ("There ain't no hiding from GREEN LANTERN!") ever written AND was tricked into doing rogue CIA dirty work by an agent doing her best "little girl lost" impression]. I mean, ridiculous treatment of non-main characters is par for the course with Ennis [of course, so's ridiculous treatment of the MAIN characters as well - the Hitman was literally pissed on by an elephant after getting punched out by his girlfriend in his own book - but at least we get to see their redeeming sides to make up for it]; it's an Ennis staple. And speaking as an Ennis fan, it's fantastic. Hell, I was anxiously awaiting that two issue arc just to see what Ennis would do with Wolverine, and boy, was I contented.

I'm looking forward to see what Tieri can do in the way of trying to out-Ennis Ennis. I mean no disrespect to Tieri when I say this though: I really doubt that he'll succeed at beating Ennis at his own game. Ah well.

[Morlun]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan20:
<strong>Oh, and I hope there's a better reason for the meeting than "Wolvie stuck his nose into Punisher's business"....I don't think Castle would care too much if someone else happened to take down some mobsters.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was my thought exactly. Can you see Frank Castle wanting to kill any other vigilante because he killed some mobsters? He'd be glad for the help, not pissed.

[Starpilot]

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong>Yep, mayhem and in-jokes, that's what's gonna help this industry reach out to new readers! :)

- Elayne</strong><hr></blockquote>

What, does every book published now have to serve as an ambassador to the non-comic-reading public?

Gimme a big fat, freakin' break!

As for Wolverine getting squished and smacked around, that's great! Can't stand the character. I may just have to pick up PUNISHER #16-17. As for WOLVERINE #186, no way. I've been treated to enough of Tieri's work to know that it doesn't appeal to me. :rolleyes:

[quote]Originally posted by KACH:
<strong>Yeah, he also treated Batman with a bit of respect, too. Well, actually, he did have Tommy throw up on Bats' boots.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was classic lol.

[quote]Originally posted by KACH:
<strong>But did you see Garth's treatment of Green Lantern? Hilarious! ennis even said he wanted the most ridiculous mainstream character DC had to offer, so he picked Rayner.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Lol. I didn't know that! And yeah, it was hilarious! lol

[Aaron]

Good God, the inmates are running the asylum. Where the hell are the editors in all this? Isn't it, oh I don't know, their JOB to ensure SOME kind of consistency in characterization between books? Or is it all a big joke?

Isn't it somehow sad that the most exciting things at Marvel these days happen in the news pages and behind the scenes than in their actual books?

Aaron

[gOgIver]

How many more issues will Ennis & Dillon be creating for the PUNISHER?

[John Jones]

I for one, enjoyed seeing wolverine treated like an idiot. It was a fun/ny story. While I doubt Tieri can make fun of a character better than Ennis, it'll be interesting to see.

[Rorschach]

I thought the Ennis Wolverine/Punisher story was funny as hell. I like both characters when done properly, but I love Wolverine when he takes ridiculous amounts of abuse. I was actully hoping they would set him on fire as well! You know he just going to come back even more pissed. Good show by Ennis, especially the closing lines.

[Velvet Glove]

Love how Tieri refers to Wolverine as "his" character. Sheesh.

[thefuuma]

[quote]Good God, the inmates are running the asylum. Where the hell are the editors in all this? Isn't it, oh I don't know, their JOB to ensure SOME kind of consistency in characterization between books? Or is it all a big joke?
Isn't it somehow sad that the most exciting things at Marvel these days happen in the news pages and behind the scenes than in their actual books?

<hr></blockquote>
Yeah I agree. I feel sometimes that writers write for each other rather than the fans-- too busy stroking each other's balls rather than providing solid entertainment.

I mean I laughed a little bit at Ennis's Wolvie treatment (when he blew his face off) since it was so damned outrageous. But little else was funny to me-- the midgets, the "in-humor," the further trampling of Wolverine. It was just bad comedy with very little plot and story.

I think it's bad business to shame an A-list character like so. How are readers supposed to take Wolverine as a serious bad-ass after the comedic treatment he recieved in Punisher. Readers will always have a point of reflection in these two issues, and they can say "ahhhh Wolverine is a pussy," which may have been Ennis's intent.

The editors SHOULD do some regulating. Characters are inconsistent. Not to make a big point over nothing though...

[RDFozz]

[quote]Originally posted by Clem Snide:
<strong>Wolverine hit in the nuts, run over with steam-roller etc?

These are just old Roadrunner/Wile E. Coyote routines he's recycling, aren't they?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Honestly, I'm almost certain that Wile E. never got hit in the groin.

[saiyanspider]

I don't know ennis from a hole in the wall, so i'm not gonna say something like "ohh he's a butt munch" but I will say I think he is immature in that because he doesn't like main stream characters doesn't mean you should treat them like $#!t. To each his own you should respect someone else's taste like you would want your's respected.


ohh what the heck he's a jerk. sorry i couldn't resist

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by thefuuma:
<strong>
How are readers supposed to take Wolverine as a serious bad-ass after the comedic treatment he recieved in Punisher.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've always found it hard to "take Wolverine as a serious bad-ass" when he wears that damn yellow and blue outfit. I think THAT'S inconsistent; a violent brawler that's been around for about a century, and he wears yellow tights? Can anyone explain how that makes sense?

[The Blue Spider]

<font color=blue>- Ennis implied that if Wolverine was set on fire he would die. The midgets saved his life.

- Jim Shooter often went so far as offending writers such as Chris Claremont or John Byrne simply in an effort to maintain proper characterization throughout all the titles and to prevent writers from getting to pissing matches.

- That was not Wolverine. The characterization was off. Wolverine would never use such excesive force in a mere bar fight. He would never slice off someone's fingers.

- The Punisher would not necessarily hunt down other vigilantes if all they killed were mobsters.

- Frank Tieri's Wolverine is worse than his Iron Man. This title stars a brutal murderer who routinely kills people as a casual release. in the distant past writers had the character fight his dark side. Tieri and the current breed (he is the worst of the lot) have him embrace his dark side, much to the joy of the fans. Rather than kill only in the most extreme and/or neccessary moments this Wolverine uses excessive force and takes pleasure every single time.

That's only ripping on the character. Heck, when I read Ennis' Wolverine I just saw a parody of Tieri's. If this was Wein or Claremont or some other Wolverine of the early nineties or late eighties we would see a parody of a different sort. But Ennis's Wolverine was violent and stupid because Tieri's was a little less violent.

The title itself presents gory content, too much violence, and some stories don't entirely make sense. His Mr X was a powerful opponent who could see people's moves ahead of time, due to telepathy. But he did not beat the Taskmaster using telepathy. TM announced his intentions out loud and was simply beaten to the top of a cage through methods not explained. Telepathy can't teleport a guy.

- I hate how all the comics writers now have amped Wolverine's healing factor to the point where he is absolutely unkillable. In the old days a shotgun blast to the face would have killed him.
And how did the blast take his tonque but not his eyes? Shouldn't he be deaf too? And shouldn't some of those pellets get lodged in deeper? Shouldn't the eyes by liquified and his brain shredded?

- Continuity is gone. The Ennis Wolverine/Punisher meeting made no mention to any past encounters. Of course, that would involve actual characterization and throw out the possibility of satire.</font>

[Aaron]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>

I've always found it hard to "take Wolverine as a serious bad-ass" when he wears that damn yellow and blue outfit. I think THAT'S inconsistent; a violent brawler that's been around for about a century, and he wears yellow tights? Can anyone explain how that makes sense?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Sure. It made perfect sense during the first dozen or so years of the character's existence in X-Men. The character of Wolverine morphed into a "he's been everywhere, done everything, lived forever, bloodthirsty mind-implanted pseudo-animal" in the 1990s. Before then, he was just a superhero with a really bad attitude.

Some things are best left simplified.

Aaron

[abs_of_flab]

Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
- The Punisher would not necessarily hunt down other vigilantes if all they killed were mobsters.

Actually, Garth Ennis has been slowly but surely turning the Punisher into a vigilante who has no tolerance for other vigilantes. Ennis capped off the first maxi-series with Frank Castle killing off three vigilantes that he himself inspired, and during the present run, the Punisher has been stating [in internal monologues] that no one should be playing judge, jury, and executioner - with himself being the sole exception, of course. Under Ennis' pen, Frank Castle's been getting more and more psychotic with each issue, I'd say.

[Eric Qel-Droma]

[quote]Originally posted by Starpilot:
<strong>
What, does every book published now have to serve as an ambassador to the non-comic-reading public?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I completely agree. I was just saying elsewhere on these boards that the instant a storyline becomes even remotely complex, someone complains that it's not "accessible." B.S.

Look at some of my favorite storylines of all time: Daredevil/Elektra's original storyline (before she was brought back to life), anyone? The (original) Hobgoblin (for the first two years, anyway)? Daredevil: Born Again? (I'm on some kind of a DD kick lately. Hmm.) All that was considered necessary for a reader to know was the brief recap that the hero always narrated at the beginning of the book.

Now, I'm cool with Marvel's recap pages; they definitely improve the writing when it's read as a trade. But what more than that do people want? In order to really keep people coming back (as opposed to just coming in), comics need to make them want to read the next issue. Multi-issue arcs are the way to do it. And, for those of us who have been around for more than six months, the occasional funny issue is a real treat, kind of like the yearly comedy eps of The X-Files.

Anyway...

Eric

[Aaron Weisbrod]

When the first issue of the Wolverine/Punisher battle took place I'll be the first to admit that I didn't "get it."

However, once the two-part story-arc was completed I saw it for what it was: a savage (and hilarious) skewering of the classic "old-school" Marvel team-up formula. Yes, it was brutal, but also hilarious! And for those of you that were/are up in arms about it, remember: a remark generally hurts in proportion to its truth. ;)

Also, I see Tieri getting a lot of guff over WOLVERINE. While the pre-Alonso issues were certainly nothing special, I am quite enjoying the "new direction" in which he is taking the character. I think the gritty feel of the book suits the character extremely well...

Finally, Rorschach, could you PLEASE explain to me what the last line of that issue of PUNISHER was in reference to? PLEASE?!? That quote by Castle completely lost me! :confused:

It sounds so familiar,
Aaron Weisbrod

[Cloak & Dagger]

Hopefully, Frank will have Wolvie cut Castle's arms and legs off and stuff his body up the ass of some guy named "Garth Dennis"!

[Jake Ivers]

the gritty feel of the book suits the character extremely well

Ugh...did you actually say "gritty"? I thought "gritty" comics went out with Spawn?

Punisher 16&17 was the worse books Marvel has put out since....Marville #1....uh...maybe they're just being consistent with their suckiness now?

I'm not even a Wolverine fan...but the whole "no faced" Wolverine ? Ok I know I'm supposed to suspend belief when it comes to comics...but that was a little too much.

[Cloak & Dagger]

Where can I get Tieri's email address, so I can thank him for doing this.

I'm quite irritated and bored of Garth Ennis' hackwork in the Marvel U.

Fire Ennis and get someone better to write Punisher. Someone like Mike Kennedy.

[Grendel Prime]

Some people are taking this "continuity" and "Wolvie wouldn't do that" thing WAY too seriously. It was just Garth Ennis having fun and telling an amusing story. I don't think anyone is supposed to take it as canon. I would have thought the midget mafiosos would have been the first clue.

At least Ennis' brutalization of Wolverine was done for comedic effect. Unlike Tieri's.

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by Aaron Weisbrod:
<strong>Also, I see Tieri getting a lot of guff over WOLVERINE. While the pre-Alonso issues were certainly nothing special, I am quite enjoying the "new direction" in which he is taking the character. I think the gritty feel of the book suits the character extremely well...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>You mean the first issue where Wolverine starts out murdering three men and killing one in self-defense?

Heck, considering his capabilities those were all unnecessary deaths. Instead of taking them into the police or leaving them unconcious he went far and beyond his responsibilities as a crimefighter, a superhero, and as an unliscensed civilian!

This isn't a new direction. And it certainly isn't one perpetuated by Alonso. Tieri has been doing it. Morrison has had him doing it some.

Wolverine the monster. Where's the nobility here?</font>

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Starpilot:
<strong>What, does every book published now have to serve as an ambassador to the non-comic-reading public?</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's amazing, Starpilot! You were able to take my jokey line about the relative accessibility of mayhem and in-jokes and translate it into some sort of serious diatribe I totally never said! Talent like yours should be carefully nurtured!! I sit in awe!!!

- Elayne

[MichaelCoughlin]

i really didn't like the way Garth handled Wolverine either. Too much of the "i hate superhero's so I want to destroy them" feel to it.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Velvet Glove:
<strong>Love how Tieri refers to Wolverine as "his" character. Sheesh.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not uncommon for writers to develop such an affinity for a company-owned character that they begin to think of that character as their own. It has both its good side (that kind of attachment often leads to more passionate work) and its bad (sometimes a forest-for-the-trees obsession actually works against the storytelling, and of course the writer and artist are, after all, WFH).

- Elayne

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
<strong>Some people are taking this "continuity" and "Wolvie wouldn't do that" thing WAY too seriously. It was just Garth Ennis having fun and telling an amusing story. I don't think anyone is supposed to take it as canon. I would have thought the midget mafiosos would have been the first clue.

At least Ennis' brutalization of Wolverine was done for comedic effect. Unlike Tieri's.</strong><hr></blockquote>


<font color=blue>that's what I said</font>

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by thefuuma:
<strong>I feel sometimes that writers write for each other rather than the fans-- too busy stroking each other's balls rather than providing solid entertainment.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that's an excellent observation, Fuuma! I do believe there's a way to do both, but usually only if putting in stuff just for yourself and/or your fellow creators is secondary to telling the story.

- Elayne

[KyleV]

Making fun of Wolverine is like jokes about men and women leaving the toilet seat up.

I love Ennis, but lately he seems like he's phoning it in.

[John Osen]

quote:
AnthonyL, the word is whether. Weather is what you go outside in without an umbrella.
Dear god no! Not my spelling!!!

Spelling the word "weather" correctly when you meant to write "whether" is not a spelling error. You simply didn't know the difference between two words with completely different meanings. Now's the part where you respond "Get a life, Pointdexter" like you did with Blues Brother. Let the flaming begin. :D

[Starpilot]

[quote]Originally posted by Cloak & Dagger:
<strong>Fire Ennis and get someone better to write Punisher. Someone like Mike Kennedy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uh, yeah. There's a name that sells comics. Sheee-right! Why not just cancel the book and save us the trouble!

Mike who? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Joel Harris]

With all due respect, Tieri isn't a name that sells titles either. Hint: Begins with a "w", ends with an "e"... and rhymes with bolbereen. ;)

[The Marvel]

Grendel Prime Wrote: "Please, someone save Wolverine from Frank! Tieri, not Castle."

No doubt. I thought Ennis's story was funny for the parody that it was intended as. I do find it hard to swallow, continuity-wise, as it makes a farce of Logan. But who cares. It was Ennis, and it was funny.

The farce that Tieri has turned Wolverine into, however, is not funny. WOLVERINE has been a bland wasteland since Tieri rested control of the book, not that it was anything too exciting before that.

Logan works best in NEW X-MEN, and quite honestly should only be seen there. The over-exposure Wolverine has "enjoyed" for years now is the same thing that originally killed the Punisher as a character; a death that, coincidently, Ennis revived him from.

So please, no more "Jane Austen's ORIGIN" or "WOLVERINE/HULK: $#!%STORM" mini series. And if Wolverine is now "[Tieri's] character" they might as well leave him underneath Ennis's steamroller.

Oh - did you hear the "good" news? Apparently Soldier X/Nathan Summers is now "[Tieri's] character" as well for use in WEAPON X.

Yes sir, the New Marvel: cancel a book like SOLDIER X with an outstanding creative team (that also have finally attempted to mop up a character's continuity), then turn said character over to a Tieri that will commence to permanently Lobdell the character up his Jemas.

Spectacular.

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by Velvet Glove:
<strong>Love how Tieri refers to Wolverine as "his" character. Sheesh.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that's the most bizarre aspect of this whole story. Assuming for the sake of argument that it's not just another WWE storyline adapted to run in the comics fan press, and the writers really are upset with each other... Why would they take what happens to these characters so personally in the first place? I can understand fans getting upset, but I'd expect people who actually live behind the curtain to have better perspective on it.

Cheers, Todd

[Danilo Raul]

Originally posted by Starpilot:
<strong>

What, does every book published now have to serve as an ambassador to the non-comic-reading public?

Gimme a big fat, freakin' break! </strong>

This is true, look at how Quesada ****ed up the Thuderbolts book, even when it was healthy!, a lot of people went to his frigging site and asked him to relaunch the new concept under a new name and simply cancel Thuderbolts, the asshole basically told everyone to piss off and that "change was inevitable". what a jerk.

<strong>As for Wolverine getting squished and smacked around, that's great! Can't stand the character. I may just have to pick up PUNISHER #16-17. As for WOLVERINE #186, no way. I've been treated to enough of Tieri's work to know that it doesn't appeal to me. :rolleyes: </strong>

awww men...im not with you on this one i like the work of Frank Tieri a lot, and i have seem him bash Rob Leifeld pretty good on spinnercrak.com so the guy is cool in my book as a writer and as a human being! :D

[Leonidas]

Some thoughts:
1.Ennis' characterization of Wolverine may not be in synch with the new direction but its not that far off what's been done with the character in the past. I remember my friends and I busting a gut after reading some of the dialogue Larry Hama would put in the book. Examples are plenty: throwdown, claw-city, canuckle-head, freight train full of butt-kick, etc...

2.If Tieri is pissed about poor characterization of Wolverine he should worry about his own writing. Case in point, issue 181 I believe. Wolverine kills a bunch of mob men who've kidnapped a little girl. Thats fine. But in the aftermath he's shown calmly having a drink. Meanwhile, the girl is tied up in the basement. Would Wolverine really stop and have a drink (let alone spend an entire issue talking to her kidnappers) when an innocent was suffering? Or would he make sure the girl was safe first and then deal with the criminals?

3.Tieri describes his story as "more of a conflict of philosophies than anything else. You could say it’s sort of like a debate...". That right there is a huge problem. The Punisher doesn't have philosophical conflicts or debates. And in general, neither should Wolverine. It always amazed me how Wolverine could speak whole paragraphs in the middle of intense hand-to-hand combat with Sabretooth.

4.Fans of mainstream superheroes may not like the way Ennis treats their characters, but I consider it payback. For years, every time the Punisher guest starred in a book it was handled terribly. He'd be portrayed as a thug with a gun, or a reckless psycho, or just put in as an excuse to lecture us on why it would be bad to kill villain X. In the Marvel Universe a guy like the Punisher would be a legend. Ennis treats him that way.

[ScottsdaleSaint]

i'm going to go ahead and throw my two cents in on this one and say i thought that the two-parter by ennis was funny but the punisher title ceased being anything but a one-trick pony since the first ennis/dillon series ended. i actually think castle having his a$$ handed to him by wolverine could actually be funny if tieri weren't so serious about it. the punisher has literally killed everyone since being brought back to life as a viable character by garth and i've got no problem with a little payback. and lastly, everyone needs to lighten up. like grendel prime and aaron w. said, the first story was pretty much a joke. no one paying attention should really think the punisher's series has any real connection to the marvel universe (oh my god, i said real, in relation to a comic book, kill me now.), i mean the punisher's killing hundreds of mobsters left and right, with no reprisal whatsover. i think actual cops, not the one-note parodies garth uses, might actually care about all the murder and mayhem.

[Cloak & Dagger]

[quote]Originally posted by Starpilot:
<strong>

Uh, yeah. There's a name that sells comics. Sheee-right! Why not just cancel the book and save us the trouble!

Mike who? :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

At least they'd be worth reading. Right now, Punisher only sells cuz it's written by Ennis. That kind of hackwork can be done by some monkey. I wouldn't be surprised if it WAS written by monkeys and Ennis gave Marvel approval to use his name on the book. This way, lots of people are buying the book cuz "Garth Ennis" is writing it, all the while Garth is laughing his ass off at all the stupid fanboys.

[Aaron Weisbrod]

Thank you, ScottsdaleSaint, for being one of the voices of reason here. ;)

I understand that people who are REALLY into Wolverine (the character) and other superhero and/or spandex-based books tend to get a little pissed off when Gath pisses all over "traditional superheroes" (are you out there, Comorant?), but the bottom line is that is was just Ennis telling a story for comical effect... right down to the no-face shotgun blast, Wolverine's continued blabbering in tough-man cliches, and the multiple groin shots.

It was PARODY, people. Lighten-up a little! :p

And please, PLEASE, can some one out there explain the reference Castle was making toward the end of that story-arc? PLEASE?!?

Ending on a not-so-serious note,
Aaron Weisbrod

[wraith]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan20:
<strong>By the way, has any reason been given as to why Logan's killing people right and left in his book these days? What happened to the guy who was violent but could control himself?</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is a perfectly good reason for this. Frank Tieri is a crappy writer/hack, who sees wolverine only as a one dimensional tough guy/badass character that loves to kill people.

[wraith]

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
<strong><font color=blue>- Ennis implied that if Wolverine was set on fire he would die. The midgets saved his life.

- Jim Shooter often went so far as offending writers such as Chris Claremont or John Byrne simply in an effort to maintain proper characterization throughout all the titles and to prevent writers from getting to pissing matches.

- That was not Wolverine. The characterization was off. Wolverine would never use such excesive force in a mere bar fight. He would never slice off someone's fingers.

- The Punisher would not necessarily hunt down other vigilantes if all they killed were mobsters.

- Frank Tieri's Wolverine is worse than his Iron Man. This title stars a brutal murderer who routinely kills people as a casual release. in the distant past writers had the character fight his dark side. Tieri and the current breed (he is the worst of the lot) have him embrace his dark side, much to the joy of the fans. Rather than kill only in the most extreme and/or neccessary moments this Wolverine uses excessive force and takes pleasure every single time.

That's only ripping on the character. Heck, when I read Ennis' Wolverine I just saw a parody of Tieri's. If this was Wein or Claremont or some other Wolverine of the early nineties or late eighties we would see a parody of a different sort. But Ennis's Wolverine was violent and stupid because Tieri's was a little less violent.

The title itself presents gory content, too much violence, and some stories don't entirely make sense. His Mr X was a powerful opponent who could see people's moves ahead of time, due to telepathy. But he did not beat the Taskmaster using telepathy. TM announced his intentions out loud and was simply beaten to the top of a cage through methods not explained. Telepathy can't teleport a guy.

- I hate how all the comics writers now have amped Wolverine's healing factor to the point where he is absolutely unkillable. In the old days a shotgun blast to the face would have killed him.
And how did the blast take his tonque but not his eyes? Shouldn't he be deaf too? And shouldn't some of those pellets get lodged in deeper? Shouldn't the eyes by liquified and his brain shredded?

- Continuity is gone. The Ennis Wolverine/Punisher meeting made no mention to any past encounters. Of course, that would involve actual characterization and throw out the possibility of satire.</font></strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with every single thing you said.

[Mellow Doubt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leonidas:
<strong>Some thoughts:
1.Ennis' characterization of Wolverine may not be in synch with the new direction but its not that far off what's been done with the character in the past. I remember my friends and I busting a gut after reading some of the dialogue Larry Hama would put in the book. Examples are plenty: throwdown, claw-city, canuckle-head, freight train full of butt-kick, etc...</strong>

You forgot "opening up a can of whup-ass". :D But honestly, I agree with everyone who regards those two issues as a parody. For years, Wolverine was written that way and the fanboys just lapped it up in awe. Garth Ennis is just trying to point out how ridiculous it was/is.

<strong>2.If Tieri is pissed about poor characterization of Wolverine he should worry about his own writing. Case in point, issue 181 I believe. Wolverine kills a bunch of mob men who've kidnapped a little girl. Thats fine. But in the aftermath he's shown calmly having a drink. Meanwhile, the girl is tied up in the basement. Would Wolverine really stop and have a drink (let alone spend an entire issue talking to her kidnappers) when an innocent was suffering? Or would he make sure the girl was safe first and then deal with the criminals?</strong>

I suppose he's just trying to make Wolverine as cool as possible. Let some pansy like Captain America get the innocent girl to safety; when Wolverine wants a Molson, by God he'll have a Molson! :D

<strong>3.Tieri describes his story as "more of a conflict of philosophies than anything else. You could say it’s sort of like a debate...". That right there is a huge problem. The Punisher doesn't have philosophical conflicts or debates. And in general, neither should Wolverine. It always amazed me how Wolverine could speak whole paragraphs in the middle of intense hand-to-hand combat with Sabretooth.</strong>

There was a dig at Wolverine's mid-fight philosophizing in one of later issues of Joe Kelly's Deadpool run. Basically he launches at DP while spouting off the usual honor code nonsense, while onlookers comment, "He says an awful lot in mid-leap" or some such. I almost bust a gut laughing when I first read that issue.

[eleven11]

the issue that punisher let spidey get his brains beaten in, what issue was it? and who wrote it? it was recently done, early in the punisher run, that was pretty good.

[enabler]

[quote]Frank Tieri is a crappy writer/hack, who sees wolverine only as a one dimensional tough guy/badass character that loves to kill people. <hr></blockquote>

Bingo.

Ironic, though, that the covers since Tieri came on have been some of the best in the entire series.

[Jeremy Williams]

Me? I just want Ennis to write Lobo!!! :p

[Jerry Smith]

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong>

Yep, mayhem and in-jokes, that's what's gonna help this industry reach out to new readers! :)

- Elayne</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm all for every issue of every book reaching out to the imaginary teeming millions who are aching to pick up a comic book but just don't realize it. But can't we have some fun once in a while? I don't think either the PUNISHER or WOLVERINE titles are designed to pick up graphic-novels-only-I-hate-superheroes-wine-sniffing new readers. More like the White Castle crowd.

[Dan20]

[quote]Originally posted by Morlun:
<strong>

That was my thought exactly. Can you see Frank Castle wanting to kill any other vigilante because he killed some mobsters? He'd be glad for the help, not pissed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I should clarify; like you and I said, he wouldn't be upset if Wolvie took down some mobsters; he would be upset if some random people started offing bad guys (as seen in the Ennis/Dillion Punisher mini), but he wouldn't give a damn if he heard Logan killed a bad guy.

[Alex Clarke Kent]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>

I've always found it hard to "take Wolverine as a serious bad-ass" when he wears that damn yellow and blue outfit. I think THAT'S inconsistent; a violent brawler that's been around for about a century, and he wears yellow tights? Can anyone explain how that makes sense?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Logan hasn't worn his old costume for a couple of years now.

[Richard Werder]

What's all the hoopla? Logan came off exactly the wat he did when Hama was writing him, and I thought that's what the fanboys liked.

[Mellow Doubt]

[quote]Originally posted by eleven11:
<strong>the issue that punisher let spidey get his brains beaten in, what issue was it? and who wrote it? it was recently done, early in the punisher run, that was pretty good.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was issue 2 of the current ongoing. As someone's mentioned earlier, Garth Ennis was responsible for that as well.

[Pariah]

Nostalgia... Remember when a guest appearance used to mean something? Especially when it was Wolverine. Wolive and Spidey, Wolvie and the Punisher in '88 drawn by Jim Lee. Oh, the days the days as I grow older...

[Barry]

...

[BoyWonder]

I don't believe people are calling Garth Ennis a hack! Anybody read Preacher? Just about the best Vertigo title since Sandman!

As for Wolverine/Punisher. I think it is absolutely hilarious the way Ennis has made a fool of Wolvie. I love the fact that Ennis takes pot shots at what many fanboys feel is sacred. I'm a mega Batman fan and I loved the way Hitman made a mockery of him in Hitman #1. As for the treatment Kyle Rayner got, he didn't get half of what he deserved! Kyle Rayner is the lamest main DC character. Superman got some respect partly because he actually represents something truly great: Truth and Justice. He's no murderer like Wolverine.

I'm more than Happy for Tieri to get his own back on Garth and the Punisher.

For those clambering for Tieri to be replaced, may I suggest Christopher Priest as the ideal man to write Wolverine. Priest could really delve into the espionage side of Wolverine. The honour/bad-ass stuuf has been done to death and we need a new direction.

[Aaron Weisbrod]

Hey, Jeremy... I've got good news for you, buddy. Ennis DID write Lobo! :D

Hunt down the HITMAN/LOBO one-shot to see Ennis completely humiliate the #1 "bastich." ;)

It's funny, funny stuff!

"Bueno!",
Aaron Weisbrod

[Grendel Prime]

[quote]Originally posted by KyleV:
<strong>I love Ennis, but lately he seems like he's phoning it in.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was actually starting to feel a bit of that myself.

Until last night, when I read Punisher #18, quite possibly the single best Punisher story I have ever read.

Much respect to Ennis.

[gOgIver]

[quote]Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
<strong>


Until last night, when I read Punisher #18, quite possibly the single best Punisher story I have ever read.

Much respect to Ennis.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. It's hard to believe that with all the T.V. coverage I've seen over the years about the Irish/English conflict, it was never made clear to me who was on which side and why. Then with a $2.99 comic it was easy to understand. That issue is BEST comic of the WEEK for me. And with STRAY BULLETS coming out this week too, that is the highest praise I can give!

Anyone know how many more issues of PUNISHER Ennis will write?

[Chris Hunter]

This is all extremely funny or extremely sad. I'm still trying to find the line that separates the two.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Jerry Smith:
<strong>I'm all for every issue of every book reaching out to the imaginary teeming millions who are aching to pick up a comic book but just don't realize it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Or even the actual teeming millions of potential readers who would probably like comics but don't know that they aren't all mayhem and in-jokes.

[quote]<strong>But can't we have some fun once in a while?</strong><hr></blockquote>

From this thread, it doesn't sound like even loyal Wolverine or Punisher readers are expecting that much fun out of this venture.

- Elayne

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by Pariah:
<strong>Remember when a guest appearance used to mean something? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope.
When did this happen? I can surely think of particular examples, but you make it sound like we've left behind an era where guest appearances always meant something, but they no longer do. But as long as there've been guest appearances, there've been meaningless ones. For years (at least), Marvel seemed to have an unwritten rule that Spider-Man would appear in a new title by issue five. The Wolverine appearance may have been pointless, but this is nothing new.

[John Osen]

. :rolleyes:

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by BoyWonder:
<strong>I don't believe people are calling Garth Ennis a hack! Anybody read Preacher? Just about the best Vertigo title since Sandman!

For those clambering for Tieri to be replaced, may I suggest Christopher Priest as the ideal man to write Wolverine. Priest could really delve into the espionage side of Wolverine. The honour/bad-ass stuuf has been done to death and we need a new direction.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>I can believe that people are calling Garth Ennis a hack. I make no such judgements because I don't care but I do believe that people will be driven to certain opinions if a writer offends them in some way or writes in such a style that can be seen as cutting corners.

I have noticed some 'corner-cutting' or what I believe is corner-cutting in Ennis' work.

One non-Ennis example of corner-cutting is when a villain kills one of his henchmen off-hand just to show how evil he is. Only exceptional writers or exceptional characters can get away with this if there is something clever involved. A Justice League International Annual managed to create a running gag out of the Joker killing his henchmen. Characterization can be derived from the act, as we can see in two examples reprinted in The Greatest Joker Stores Ever Told anthology. Characterization can be included in the reasoning for the act but trying to just show great evil by the mere act of killing henchmen is short, lazy, and corner-cutting.

An Ennis example of corner-cutting is also one used by Warren Ellis and Brian Michael Bendis among others. They often use profanity to get a reaction out of readers. They could get the same reaction from readers without the profanity but usually that would take longer and more effort.

(Using profanity and vulgar vernacular to establish realism seems like a lost cause to me. I know it's not real and I intended to read a fantasy anyway. Just get a lot of the other details right and I am pretty sure I can gloss over the prisoners not using the 'f-word'. Only an immature person has trouble getting over a lack of profanity. I only hated the lack of profanity in "Full House" when I was a kid.)

In any case I find it amusing now that some make statements that something is the best brand-item since another something as if I am compelled to use this as reasoning in my judgements. As if I am compelled to either read these works and/or concede that they are the basic standard for all that is good in comics, regardless of whether I read them or not.</font>

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by BoyWonder:
<strong>For those clambering for Tieri to be replaced, may I suggest Christopher Priest as the ideal man to write Wolverine. Priest could really delve into the espionage side of Wolverine. The honour/bad-ass stuuf has been done to death and we need a new direction.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>I meant to respond to this as well.

I believe Priest would be a good replacement for Tieri. The only problem is that he has very little name recognition any more.

I write this to suggest that someone (other than myself) begin drafting an online petition for Priest to be hired for various titles for both major companies. I will sign it.</font>

[Starpilot]

[quote]Originally posted by Joel Harris:
<strong>With all due respect, Tieri isn't a name that sells titles either. Hint: Begins with a "w", ends with an "e"... and rhymes with bolbereen. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not talking about Tieri. I was talking about Ennis, who obviously has a name in the biz.

[Starpilot]

[quote]Originally posted by Cloak & Dagger:
<strong>

At least they'd be worth reading. Right now, Punisher only sells cuz it's written by Ennis. That kind of hackwork can be done by some monkey. I wouldn't be surprised if it WAS written by monkeys and Ennis gave Marvel approval to use his name on the book. This way, lots of people are buying the book cuz "Garth Ennis" is writing it, all the while Garth is laughing his ass off at all the stupid fanboys.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Can't argue with you there. But in this market, a non-first-tier character like the Punisher simply won't survive without a "name brand" creator writing the book.

[abs_of_flab]

"Hackwork"? By GARTH ENNIS? Wow. That's a pretty strong statement right there, isn't it?

The guy writes stuff that ranges from being outrageous to outrageously funny to dead serious. He takes tired cliches from all types of superheroic or popular fictional formulae and puts subversive and often hysterically funny spins on them. He writes stories with subject matter that most people wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole and never comes off as preachy or pretentious - what's hackish about that?

[KACH]

Am I the only one who noticed that Logan's supposed "satirical, goofy dialogue" was pretty much exactly like the way that Claremont used to write him in the 70's & 80's?

I liked that story. Why are we taking these stories so seriously?

--J.

[SPEEDBOY]

I thought Wolverine having this huge inner monologue and eventually mumbling off panel was a great knock on X=Writing. Haven't read much of the Morrison stuff and what little of the Austen stuffI read was great. (Sammy kicks ass!!!!) But when I did read X-Men the editor determined plots were sickening, and Ennis wasn't exaggeratting about teh dialogue. Mark Waid's short-lived run aside, but somebody should havelet the writers (Lobdell, and even Claremont) that for the love of God you have a f**king artist!!!!!!! We don't need play-by-play!!!

[John Osen]

What happened to Wolverine was almost as bad as the physical and emotional abuse suffered in AnthonyL's childhood! :p

[Fanboyimus Prime]

I remember when Wolverine and the Punisher were very dark characters, but they had some respect for each other. They would also kill the other if the other snapped and crossed the line.

I have no idea who these guys are.

[Sammycomic]

this is so childish.

hey frank.. its not YOUR character. get over it. Wolvie has been over barrel since the idiocy of bone claws.

I havent read what Garth did ( I am a huge Garth Ennis fan, though), but I can't imagine its any better or worse than anything else sicne Chris Claremont left ( circa 1995).

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
<strong>
In the old days a shotgun blast to the face would have killed him.
And how did the blast take his tonque but not his eyes? Shouldn't he be deaf too? And shouldn't some of those pellets get lodged in deeper? Shouldn't the eyes by liquified and his brain shredded?
</strong><hr></blockquote>


And howcum sometimes when Daffy Duck get shot, his feathers are blown off, and sometimes its just his beak!?! I need to have someone explain this to me! Please! I haven't been able to have a decent nights sleep in years; this horrible inconsistency has driven me nuts since I was 5! Looney Toons obviously has no respect for its loyal fans.

[Michael Heide]

In a way, Garth Ennis is like Alan Moore.
He can tell some of the best stories out there, but only if he wants to. Both Ennis and Moore wrote books and characters they didn't have any emotional attachment to, and it always shows.
But when they are trying, they are some of the best authors in the business.

[utiti77]

A while back, in Hitman/Lobo, Ennis wrote Lobo getting fucked in the ass (off-panel) by some sick weirdo called Bueno Excellente...

But did you see Alan Grant or Keith Giffen "giving Garth Ennis a taste of his own medecine" as a response? No. You know why? Because they're not goddamn babies, that's why. And *they* created Lobo. That guy whose name I don't even remember didn't create shit. Len Wein and Herb Trimpe created Wolverine, and if they had the kind of money they deserve for that, you can bet they wouldn't mind seeing the goddamned canucklehead getting kicked in the balls, every episode.

I thought the time of childish feuds ala Byrne/Claremont or David/Larsen was over... That does not make better comics, at all.

u77

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

To utiti77: It is being done in fun. You know, fun as in what comics are supposed to be about? Mr. Tieri is not standing around the Marvel offices screaming for Ennis' head in a serious manner. He is simply taking a story and responding to it. This will not develop into a "feud", it is being done for fun. Yeesh, this is about comics, right???

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by utiti77:
<strong>A while back, in Hitman/Lobo, Ennis wrote Lobo getting fucked in the ass (off-panel) by some sick weirdo called Bueno Excellente...

But did you see Alan Grant or Keith Giffen "giving Garth Ennis a taste of his own medecine" as a response? No. You know why? Because they're not goddamn babies, that's why. And *they* created Lobo. That guy whose name I don't even remember didn't create shit. Len Wein and Herb Trimpe created Wolverine, and if they had the kind of money they deserve for that, you can bet they wouldn't mind seeing the goddamned canucklehead getting kicked in the balls, every episode.

I thought the time of childish feuds ala Byrne/Claremont or David/Larsen was over... That does not make better comics, at all.

u77</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>Giffen hates Lobo. Giffen only writes Lobo because people pay him to.
Giffen himself would write Lobo into painful situations if they paid him too. Not only that but Giffen has very little sentimental attachment to characters that he has written, regardless of his creator status. He has more sentiment attached to the stories.

Of course, I may be wrong in regards to the Ambush Bug and that 'Bugs Bunny' ripoff, whathisname. He might actually like those characters.

(He does refer to the character, whose name I actually cannot remember, as a direct ripoff of Bugs Bunny.)

I don't know why Alan Grant would care.

and I don't know if Tieri is serious or not. I don't know that he isn't</font>

[Scott Senay]

I still want to know what the last line Frank said was. Anybody know at all???? Anyone???

[Jerry Mouse]

Ennis' "Wolverine-Vs-The Punisher" issues sound a lot like his Hitman-Vs-Lobo issues. One main character with a big gun, one guest character who can't be killed, or who at least can take a hell of a lot of damage. I'm pretty sure that Lobo came off worse than Wolverine, though, because at least Logan didn't have to spend a night with Bueno Excellente...

[The Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
<strong>

<font color=blue>

Of course, I may be wrong in regards to the Ambush Bug and that 'Bugs Bunny' ripoff, whathisname. He might actually like those characters.

(He does refer to the character, whose name I actually cannot remember, as a direct ripoff of Bugs Bunny.)

I don't know why Alan Grant would care.

</font></strong><hr></blockquote>

You mean the Giffen's THE HECKLER?

As for Alan Grant, he worked on THE DEMON before Garth Ennis, so I'd think he likes Ennis' work.

[Jeremy Williams]

While most writers forget what their characters are during a comic-book run, like it or don`t like it, Garth`s Punisher always stay in character the way Garth imagines him. In this instance, it was prefectly logical for Frank Castle to see Wolverine as a nuisance that would detract from his work. That`s what Ennis`Punisher has done from day one! And Wolvie is also a killer wich doesn`t sit to well with Punisher who pretty much maim everything that is bad. Plus, he knew Logan would probably get up from being squacht like that.

Either way, there`s always another Wolverine issue...

[Yodamite]

The part where Frank calls Wolverine, "Pine Marten"? All I know is that it's a small animal from the weasel family--fairly harmless compared to a Wolverine. Here's a site that has a picture of one.

<a href="http://www.cfaces.demon.co.uk/pinemarten.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cfaces.demon.co.uk/pinemarten.htm</a>