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View Full Version : A WILDCATS 2Q REPORT


MichaelDoran
11-06-2002, 04:54 AM
<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Wildcats7.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Wildcats7_t.jpg" width="150" height="231" border="0" alt="WILDVATS Version 3.0 no. 7" align="right"></a>With the launch of its third series, Wildstorm’s Wildcats showed itself to be…something different. Written by Joe Casey, and part of the new mature-readers, Eye of the Storm line of books, the series reads as a hybrid between business thriller, action adventure, and science fiction. The gist – the Halo Corporation is going to change the world with batteries that last forever. But there’s more to it than just that – much more.

To start, virtually all the super-hero trappings of the original concept are gone. Only one character, Grifter, a.k.a Cole Cash even wears any fragment of a costume, his mask. Spartan, the former leader of the team, back when they were the WildC.A.T.S, has shed his costume, wearing instead the material that once contained his former teammate, Void, who has since…gone into the Void. Mr. Wax, an agent with the National Park Service (from Volume 2), is back, as a mole inside the agency, working for Halo, who at the same time has serious reservations about the role of corporations in society. The beautiful, mysterious, and deadly C.C. Rendozzo has debuted, apparently intent on destroying Halo. Oh yeah – and there’s a FBI agent in a big glass vial, waiting to be reformed, kinda like the Martians in the Bugs Bunny cartoons.

But aside from that, Wildcats 3.0 is pretty easy to follow.

Oh yeah, and it’s got art by Dustin Nguyen...hubba.

Newsarama caught up with Casey to talk about the series, what it stands for, and where it’s going.

Newsarama: First, let's talk about how the relaunch is going. Wildcats 3.0 has two issues on the stands now, it's about to release its third. Have you been happy with the reception the series has received so far?

Joe Casey: I actually haven’t seen too many reviews, but I guess a first issue sell-out, and that’s including a 50% overship, is a pretty good indication that things are going well. I’ve seen some good responses from quite a few retailers, too.

NRAMA: What's gratified you the most from the response you seen?

JC: It’s nice to think that we’re doing a book that might be slightly different from the majority of current superhero material and people are still enjoying it, with some readers even embracing its relative uniqueness. In today’s market, taking creative chances can be a gamble, but so far this one seems to be paying off.

NRAMA: Confounded or frustrated you there most?

JC: I think different readers look for different things in their comic books. I’m dealing with some specific subject matter as a backdrop, but this isn’t meant to be an economics textbook. It’s a sexy, action/suspense/dark comedy that takes place against a particular setting, a huge corporation. But, just like Wildcats Vol. 2 was, this series really all about the characters. I have to simplify certain concepts for all kinds of reasons, but I think the general gist of how corporations operate will get through to the layman reader. Believe me, it’s going to stray even further from reality in the coming months, but this is speculative fiction, not real life.

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Wc3no4_05.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Wc3no4_05_t.jpg" width="150" height="226" border="0" alt="WILDVATS Version 3.0 no. 4, pg. 5" align="left"></a>NRAMA: This is a series about corporate politics, so let's talk corporate politics. Have you been pleased with the support the series has gotten from Wildstorm and DC?

JC: The initial Eye of the Storm books have undoubtedly been a learning experience for everyone involved. I think, pound for pound, this is a stronger line of books than you’re likely to find anywhere, from any publisher. I also think that, with 20/20 hindsight, a lot of things would’ve been done differently, from creative decisions to editorial decisions to marketing decisions. I’m still not sure if DC knows what it has in this imprint. To me, it’s a tremendous opportunity to do edgier, more relevant material. Even more eclectic material in the mainstream market. But, the fact is, I’m really only responsible for some of the creative decision-making, so that’s what I try to focus on.

Trade paperbacks are always important, and Wildstorm’s always been pretty good about getting them out there. In fact, we’re wrapping up the trade collections for Vol. 2 with the release of Battery Park in February. This one collects the final issues of that run, #20-28. A big, fat book that really set the stage for what I’m doing in Version 3.0, from the introduction of Agent Orange to the initial idea of manufacturing batteries.

NRAMA: How about sales, are you content with the sales figures you’ve seen so far?

JC: I don’t have those kinds of expectations anymore. I used to get wrapped up in how much something was selling, where it was on the sales chart, etc. I realized I’d better just concentrate on doing the best work I’m capable of, working with the best people, and hope that the retailers and the readers show up and support the material we provide. As long as it sells enough to keep going, I’m happy.

NRAMA: In online reviewer Randy Lander's review of issue #1, he writes, "at one point, the android formerly known as Spartan is discussing corporate marketing and accounting, and I have to think that a sizable segment of super-hero fandom is going to have little interest in that type of story." Do you think he's right?

JC: Well, like I said before, I’m simplifying a lot of the corporate stuff so the majority of readers can deal with it. This book is not meant to be a deep dissertation of economics and marketing. I’m sprinkling in some details to add to the verisimilitude of the piece, but I’m trying not to let it overwhelm the real purpose of the book, which is to follow the characters and the shit they get into. At the end of the day, that’s where my real interest lies… putting these guys through their paces.

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Wc3no4_19.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Wc3no4_19_t.jpg" width="150" height="223" border="0" alt="WILDVATS Version 3.0 no. 4, pg. 19" align="right"></a>NRAMA: To put it bluntly, do you care?

JC: Obviously, I want as many readers as possible to enjoy the book. But, as with everything I do, I’m writing this series with a specific point of view. If I was writing a sci fi story set on another planet, and in providing the proper level of detail for the story, I had to go into the socio-political and environmental climate of the planet I was writing about, I might be alienating some segment of the readership that has no interest in other planets or their possible politics. But, that’s the chance you take. Besides, I’ve always looked at the Mature Readers label as an opportunity to do something different with superheroes. With Automatic Kafka, I went one way with it. And with Wildcats Version 3.0, I’m going a different way.

NRAMA: In our interview a few weeks before the release of issue #1, we briefly touched on the Enron scandal but not in real detail. Has the current corporate climate, or maybe more accurately, the public's view of corporate in light of Enron, Worldcom, Martha Stewart affected your approach to the series?

JC: I think those real-life situations just make the book more relevant. I’ve certainly got my cynical attitudes toward corporations, just as many people probably do, but that’s what makes writing this series exciting for me. Corporations themselves aren’t evil; no doubt the folks that run them can often act in a despicable manner. But, corporations are definitely a powerful construct in modern society. In many ways, they‘re set up to be more powerful than governments. But, I’m not sure that we’ve ever seen a corporation depicted as a true force of good before. It’s a challenge for me as a writer to stay strong with that “aspirational” element of the whole thing.

NRAMA: Will we see you address these situations directly or analogously in the series?

JC: In some ways, yes. But, those are publicly-traded companies. They have stockholders to answer to. It seems to me, that simple fact is usually the root of a lot of corporate corruption. The Halo Corporation is privately-owned, with gazillion-bazillions of fictional comic book dollars at its disposal. As far as I’m concerned, Jack Marlowe is an individual beyond corruption.

NRAMA: Of course, we could go into the irony that you're writing what appears to be an anti-corporation story, or at least an exploration of the role of the corporation, under the auspices of one of the world's largest corporations…

JC: Yeah, there is that. I obviously knew that irony existed when I decided to take the series in this direction. If anything, I hope it gives the book a bit more bite.

NRAMA: Let’s go into Marlowe's (Spartan’s) motives, as they particularly fuel the book to a large extent - as he tells his board members – he desires nothing less than the conquest of the free world - what's behind that? He really believes that strongly that his vision for the world is better than anything else?

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Wc35.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Wc35_t.jpg" width="150" alt="a page from WILDVATS Version 3.0 no. 5" height="223" border="0" align="left"></a>JC: Marlowe understands what it takes to motivate his employees, and he knows what they expect to hear from their CEO. Frankly, that involves a lot of rhetoric. Part of this series shows how you can use the rules that exist to your advantage. I don’t know if I’d say Marlowe has a “vision”, but he definitely has an agenda. He’s been living on Earth for several thousand years, so he’s uniquely qualified to judge what’s worked and what hasn’t in the course of human history.

NRAMA: What is the "message" Marlowe is trying to get across? Usually, when someone shows up with a somewhat megalomaniacal viewpoint and motive, they're pushing a philosophy or religion or new thought pattern. What's Marlowe's?

JC: Again, it’s not about establishing some sort of “utopia”. Jack Marlowe is a problem solver. I’ve definitely heard that some readers are questioning Jack Marlowe’s motives. Some have even suggested that he’s heading down a corrupt path. Now that’s cynicism at work. But I would ask any longtime reader… when has the character of Spartan ever been anything but a straight-up superhero, pure of artificial heart? As far as I know, he’s never been depicted as having an evil bone in his android body. This guy is the Superman of the Wildstorm Universe, in terms of his virtue. No matter what challenges he may face, that’s not going to change.

NRAMA: Jack's suit - given how Dustin draws it, and Larry and Randy color it, I'm guessing it looks like the T-1000's liquid metal skin, right?

JC: Marlowe’s suit is made out of the same material that, former cast member; Void’s outer body was made of… whatever that was. Plus, it gives him a distinctive look. I treat it as a new type of superhero uniform.

NRAMA: Let’s get into the theme that you started on with Wax's speech in #2 - the corporation as the individual, albeit a more powerful individual. Personally speaking, was this something that has always held your interest, or was it something that came along as you were researching for the direction of the book?

JC: I’ve always had an interest in the corporate aspects of the modern world. I watched the rise and fall of Jean-Marie Messier with great interest. There’s no denying the effect these companies have on our lives. Of course, writing a comic book about it is a good excuse to do the kind of research I wouldn’t normally do on my own. That’s not to say that I don’t wing it sometimes, but this kind of fast fiction involves a lot of writing on the run.

NRAMA: For folks who didn't read it, can you give the Cliff's Notes version of the theories Wax expressed?

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/WC6cover2_t.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/WC6cover2_t.jpg" width="150" height="220" border="0" alt="WILDVATS Version 3.0 no. 6" align="right"></a>JC: It’s simply the idea that corporations have evolved over time to become more powerful than governments, existing beyond their reach. As entities, corporations have more rights, more freedoms, than we as individuals do. Some people are apparently comfortable with that notion. Others, not so much.

NRAMA: Combining Wax’s speech, as well as your essay in the back of issue #1 - to be blunt, this series is "you," isn't it? This is how you personally feel, right? In that sense, how much of Wildcats is a personal exploration for you of the political and philosophical theories you mention?

JC: Like I said before, Wildcats Version 3.0 is speculative fiction, so there is that exploratory aspect of it. But I wouldn’t want to give readers the wrong impression. I want them to enjoy the book on a visceral level first. I want them to get caught up in the lives of the characters. The corporate theory at work is the window dressing. Now, as far as the books that are really “me”… well, if they even get published at all, they never seem to stay in print for very long. Maybe they shouldn’t be.

NRAMA: Basically, as Wax explained it, and you've presented, is the corporation of Halo a character in the book - Marlowe is its brain, Cole is, in a way, an immune system response, killing anything that threatens it?

JC: Like all of the giant, multinational conglomerates that exist in the world today, their influence is all-pervasive. That’s where Halo is headed… to be an integral part of the cultural landscape, ingrained in the public’s consciousness. Jack Marlowe is more the soul of the company… while Grifter is a pimple on its ass. A pimple that thinks it’s a tumor…

NRAMA: The feel of Halo as an "individual" organism, eating up other companies and, assumedly, coming into combat with other corporate rivals has the feel of countries going to war, as well as Godzilla fighting Rodan both will have enormous collateral damage. Is this basically your view of both the future and the world of the WSU, where sovereign governments have taken a backseat to corporations in terms of absolute power?

JC: I think those kinds of conflicts can be as interesting -- if not more so -- than the average superhero-supervillain slugfest. I’m not even writing those kinds of stories in Superman anymore, so I’m certainly not going to resort to them in Wildcats Version 3.0.

NRAMA: Analogy time - what is CC Rendozzo in relation to Halo? An opposing viewpoint? A rival corporation?

JC: C.C. Rendozzo actually has a lot in common with Jack Marlowe. They’re both intense, no-nonsense businesspeople. In addition, they both have skeletons in the closet that are eventually used against them.

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Cats_Rendozzo.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Cats_Rendozzo_t.jpg" align="left" width="165" height="272" border="0" alt="CC Rendozzo"></a>NRAMA: What event was that we saw in issue #2 where Rendozzo was facing off the FBI?

JC: That scene was a flashback to an FBI raid on the Rendozzo compound, which ties in to her reason for appearing in the book to begin with. Everything will become more clear in upcoming issues.

NRAMA: Moving back to Agent Wax a little more, with what he said in issue #2, why would Wax stick around and be a Halo employee, albeit, covert, while working at the NPS?

JC: In a certain sense, Wax is the conscience of the book. For better or worse, he’s been brought into Marlowe’s circle of confidence. If the Titanic’s headed for an iceberg, Wax is the kind of guy that would want to be right there on the main deck to see all the action first-hand. Remember, Wax had quit the NPS at the end of Vol. 2. What we didn’t see, that occurred between Vol. 2 and Version 3.0, was Jack Marlowe convincing Wax to go back to work at the NPS and act basically as a mole in that organization.

NRAMA: In the Wildstorm Universe sense, explain a little bit about the National Park Service - what's within their jurisdiction? Are they basically, the Department of the Interior, and handle all domestic super-stuff, or are they more covert?

JC: The National Park Service exists just as it does in the real world, a government agency responsible for national parks, monuments and historical sites. However, in the Wildstorm Universe, it also contains a top-secret, covert branch that investigates incidents involving superhuman criminal activity. The benevolence of the NPS provides the perfect cover for those kinds of investigations.

NRAMA: Why does Cole stick around with Halo?

JC: You can’t choose your family. It chooses you. There’s a history there between Grifter and Marlowe that he simply can’t deny. Their relationship -- that pushing and pulling of personalities -- is the heart of the book.

NRAMA: Your handling of Cole - it's almost as if, for him to continue with Halo, he's almost amoral, not caring about the consequence of his actions, or the larger picture. What is his motivation here?

JC: My whole approach with Grifter has been to subvert that clichéd, gun-toting, tough guy image in every way I can think of. I’ll take any chance I can get to mess with his head, as well as readers’ perceptions of what Grifter should be.

NRAMA: Everyone knows who he is, he often doesn't bother to hide his face, so why does Cole still wear the mask?

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Cats_Grifter.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Cats_Grifter_t.jpg" align="right" width="165" height="409" alt="Grifter - still with the mask..." border="0"></a>JC: Tradition, perversion and dysfunction. His mask is like his gang colors. Not to mention, you can hide a lot more than your face behind a mask…

NRAMA: Combining your Cole with Ed Brubaker’s version in Point Blank, there are certain parallels - you could argue that he's not the brightest bulb when it comes to picking things up on his own, explaining why Wax has to explain everything to him, and how he muddled through the investigation of Lynch's attack, but it's hard to see the Point Blank Cole not giving a crap about the company he's working for as the Wildcats Cole seems to. Am I missing some nuance of his character here?

JC: I think you might be. Grifter absolutely gives a shit. But, being as impulsive as he is, the things he cares about tend to be in opposition to the so-called bigger picture. Unlike Marlowe, Grifter’s got an ego the size of the Halo building. He’s kind of a hard luck character, but that’s part of his appeal.

NRAMA: Let’s move on to the structure of the book and its dynamic – as you alluded to before, this isn't a team book, it's not a solo book, obviously. Hell, so far, it's the "Marlowe and Cole Cash Show" and it's kind of hard, as a reader to snuggle up to either one. How do you see the book, overall?

JC: This is a book that operates very much like a primetime television drama, with an ensemble cast of characters. Every character, no matter how brief their appearance, is the star when he or she is on panel. I try to present them as though they all have full lives off-panel.

NRAMA: In this incarnation, what does "Wildcats" mean or stand for?

JC: There are two things at work with the series’ title. Because of its publishing history, Wildcats is just as much a brand name as anything discussed in the stories themselves. On a sillier, more conceptual level, I figure every character that shows up in this series has a certain wildness to them, some more obvious than others, but just wait...I might be reaching with that one…

NRAMA: Speaking of Dustin - 'fess up - how much of the either backgrounds or other stuff are you putting in there just so you can see Dustin draw them?

JC: I try to give all the artists I work with fun and interesting things to draw. At the same time, I like to give them things they’ve never drawn before. I wasn’t sure how Dustin would take to the atmospheres and environments I wanted to show in this series, but the kid has stepped up to the plate like a seasoned veteran, tackling every idea I give him with skill and enthusiasm. It’s not easy to do satire, the television commercials and news programs and whatnot… not a lot of artists can pull it off. Dustin’s a natural at it, though.

NRAMA: That said, you've given Dustin an awful lot of "talking heads" scenes – is he complaining yet?

JC: I actually think Dustin’s warmed up to the character stuff more than the action scenes. His characters really “act”, and the guy just gets better with every issue. I don’t think he wanted to do an old-school superhero comic book with lots of splash pages and shit flying out at you every other panel (at least, I hope not). As an artist, he’s much deeper than that. He’ll take one of my wacky ideas… like a Halo™ brand wall calendar in issue #6… and make it so real, I end up wanting one for my wall.

NRAMA: What about accessibility? While you can get into the series without knowing more than you explain in the back of issue #1 of the first two series, you're still telling a pretty complex story that, honestly, reads better in large chunks. How are you writing to both welcome readers and keep them in?

JC: Well, it is a Mature Readers title. I’m giving the readers enough credit to keep up with us. One of my favorite comic book creators of the ‘80s was Howard Chaykin. This was a guy who didn’t spoonfeed you a goddamn thing. You really had to read his comic books if you were going to get everything out of it. In Wildcats Version 3.0, I think all the information you need is there in the text and the art. As long as you’re paying attention, you’ll get everything.

NRAMA: Alright, teaser time – can you give a tease about what's coming up? I'm guessing a lot of gunfire with Rendozzo first, right?

JC: I’m all about putting these characters through the ringer, in a variety of ways. The end of the first story arc puts Grifter in a situation unlike any he’s ever experienced; one that drives a stake through the heart of his “action hero” persona. We also know from the first few issues that C.C. Rendozzo has a secret… one that, in a way, drives the entire first year of the book. Mister Wax, in particular, is going to start taking advantage of our Mature Readers label in a very unsuspecting way. A very adulterous way, actually. He’s not quite the clean cut guy everyone assumes he is.

There’s a slew of new characters introduced in the first year, as well. The Nuclear Family, the Beef Boys, FBI Agent Fagin Tyro, Ramón - C.C.’s resident boy genius, Donovan Rendozzo. Some of these characters began almost as window dressing, but they’ve taken a life of their own. The second story arc, issues #7-10, deals with Dolby’s transformation into something more than just an accountant. I just don’t think anyone will be able to predict where we’re taking these characters, but I hope that’s part of the fun.

On the corporate front, we’ll be seeing the Halo Corporation take giant leaps in their world influence. And the products with the Halo™ brand are going to impact the world in a much more significant way than anyone -- including Jack Marlowe -- could’ve ever imagined.

One thing I’m particularly excited about is that each story arc has its own specific graphic design. Issues #1-5 is an arc, and the covers reflect that you’re getting chapters in a larger story. <a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Cats_Marlowe.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Wildstorm/Cats_Marlowe_t.jpg" align="left" width="165" height="327" alt="Jack Marlowe, the former Spartan, in his snazzy new suit" border="0"></a>Issue #6 is a standalone story, so its package design is completely unique for that issue, with a new Wildcats logo that you’ll never see again. Then, with the next four-issue story arc beginning in issue #7, there’ll be a whole new design for the book. New logo, new everything. It’s our way of trying to stay as graphically modern as we can, and that really comes down to Rian Hughes and Dustin Nguyen. These guys are doing fantastic work on these covers. I just give them the germ of an idea, and they go off and make it look better than I could’ve ever hoped. It feels like I’ve been working my entire career to get to the point where I can be involved in comic books that look this good.

NRAMA: In our first interview you mentioned several past Wildcats beginning to appear in the series as you went along, any plans you can tell us about?

JC: Did I say that? Hmmm… I don’t want to spoil anything, but I can tell you a certain sword-wielding, white-haired immortal warrior woman will show up again in Year Two.

NRAMA: Looking towards the future in light of Marlowe’s plans, are other corporations going to roll over as Halo comes barging in to take away what was once their sole territory? Will they respond in kind, ie, with their own versions of Cole Cash?

JC: Let me put it this way… not everyone is happy when someone pulls ahead of the pack, showing the rest of the world a better way of doing things. Visionaries are, more often than not, seen as a threat by the very establishment they’re leaving in the dust. So, responses will come from all corners.

NRAMA: Well then, how will/would Jack respond to challenges from other corporations?

JC: Good question. Jack Marlowe has learned to plan several moves ahead… so decisions that might not make perfect sense in the short-term will eventually work to his advantage in the long-term.

NRAMA: Finally - do Halo batteries last forever?

JC: Not only do they last forever… they’re going to change the world. Permanently.

Monkey in a Wheelchair
11-06-2002, 05:26 AM
This is probably the best interview Casey has given. Very light on the pompous bullshit scale. Tho, I'd have liked to hear about Automatic Kafka, too, as it's my favorite monthly comic. Tell what goes towards an idea for a story, how much Ash Wood's say is worth, where it's going...
And like that.
Nice one, tho.
-- chip

Act of God
11-06-2002, 06:07 AM
:) WILDCATS VERSION 3.0 is the smartest book on the stands today!Forget all the fuss about THE ULTIMATES:VERSION 3.0 is 10 times better!
P.S:Great job on AUTOMATIK KAFKA too...

Josh Flanagan
11-06-2002, 08:00 AM
Hate to plug like this, but I think the best interview Joe's ever given was the one he gave me:

<a href="http://www.ifanboy.com/view.cgi/interview/jcasey1_81402.html" target="_blank">http://www.ifanboy.com/view.cgi/interview/jcasey1_81402.html</a>

Not to take anything away from this well done, if single minded interview. Well done.

Wade @ Sighnub.com
11-06-2002, 09:25 AM
I applaud Joe Casey for bringing out this aspect of the Wildstorm Universe. Does anyone else remember when Image started, that a lot of their characters seemed to come with corporate backstories, Wildcats, Cyberforce, Cybernary, and I know there were others that I can't rcall now.

I have to admit though that I liked the original WIldcats team. I thought there was a lot of potential there that never saw the light of day.

catchmygrift
11-06-2002, 09:33 AM
I came onto Wildcats 2.0 late, and wound up loving it. Version 3.0 is even better tho' I miss Sean Phillips still.

The humor, social commentary and completely crazy situations make this a great book. #3 was quite enjoyable and one of the funniest comics I've ever read. Goggles off to Joe and Dustin; I can't wait to read more!

Bravo guys.

Franklin Harris
11-06-2002, 10:33 AM
Casey's Wildcats Version 3.0 would work better as a commentary on corporate culture if he gave readers some indication that he understands real-world corporate culture. In the first two issues, Casey has Marlowe buy out a couple of companies overnight and then tell his new employees, "I just bought your company. You now work for me." Well, that's cute and all, but a person simply cannot buy a publicly held company like that. You must file forms with the Securities and Exchange Commission. It can't be done overnight and in secret.

tralfaz
11-06-2002, 10:35 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Franklin Harris:
<strong>Casey's Wildcats Version 3.0 would work better as a commentary on corporate culture if he gave readers some indication that he understands real-world corporate culture. In the first two issues, Casey has Marlowe buy out a couple of companies overnight and then tell his new employees, "I just bought your company. You now work for me." Well, that's cute and all, but a person simply cannot buy a publicly held company like that. You must file forms with the Securities and Exchange Commission. It can't be done overnight and in secret.</strong><hr></blockquote>

holy geezuz, it's a comic book. And who says it cant be done in secret? entertainment man, let it go.

steveupson
11-06-2002, 11:05 AM
If they put this in a TPB, I think I might check it out.

Good interview.

d477wt
11-06-2002, 11:21 AM
it could still have some super hero slug fests. why cant there be balance? :(

Mel's Man
11-06-2002, 11:26 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Monkey in a Wheelchair:
<strong>Tho, I'd have liked to hear about Automatic Kafka, too, as it's my favorite monthly comic. Tell what goes towards an idea for a story, how much Ash Wood's say is worth, where it's going...
And like that.
Nice one, tho.
-- chip</strong><hr></blockquote>

Joe covered some Kafka stuff in our interview with him <a href="http://www.comicworldnews.com/topstories/casey.html" target="_blank">http://www.comicworldnews.com/topstories/casey.html</a>
I think that Garry Marshall is right to remind everyone to say their name as much as possible.

CJG, <a href="http://www.comicworldnews.com" target="_blank">www.comicworldnews.com</a>

Icewing_X
11-06-2002, 11:42 AM
2.0, under Casey and Phillips, was my favorite comic, and 3.0 is proving to be just as good. Nguyen's sleak art works perfectly with the new direction and has the versatility to pull off not only those "talking-head" scenes but also the intense action required of the ever-intelligent scripts. And, Casey's grasp on the characters, especially Grifter and Spartan, has never been stronger. With great art, fantastic dialogue, and enough intregue to keep the reader guessing for a long time, I, for one, am hooked.

Hopefully, this interview (and the others mentioned) will help to get the word out about the series.

~Icewing, best covers on the market, imho

d477wt
11-06-2002, 12:19 PM
I just dont see caseys writing as being that good.i like intelligent writing but i also like superhero comics as well. I thought his vol. 2 wildcats was slow paced. The characters seemed stagnate. He turned grifter into an idiot with sexual problems.It just seems like he hated everything about jim lees wildcats because he totally destroyed it. ;(

d477wt
11-06-2002, 12:22 PM
I just dont see caseys writing as being that good.i like intelligent writing but i also like superhero comics as well. I thought his vol. 2 wildcats was slow paced. The characters seemed stagnate. He turned grifter into an idiot with sexual problems.It just seems like he hated everything about jim lees wildcats because he totally destroyed it. ;(

American Caesar
11-06-2002, 01:09 PM
Yes, a great interview indeed.

Joe Casey hasn't interested me since his first few examples of industry work... maybe he's recaptured the spark. I'll check out the TPB.

Ed Brubaker
11-06-2002, 01:43 PM
I have to agree that Wildcats 3.0 is probably the best "team" book on the market right now.

It's what the Ultimates wishes it was, a grown up relevant superhero comic. And the big plus, it's not just rehashing old Marvel comics from the 60s and 70s.

Act of God
11-06-2002, 01:46 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Ed Brubaker:
<strong>I have to agree that Wildcats 3.0 is probably the best "team" book on the market right now.

It's what the Ultimates wishes it was, a grown up relevant superhero comic. And the big plus, it's not just rehashing old Marvel comics from the 60s and 70s.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well said Ed!
P.S:CATWOMAN rocks!!!

NicholasWyche
11-06-2002, 02:44 PM
[quote]Originally posted by d477wt:
<strong>it could still have some super hero slug fests. why cant there be balance? :( </strong><hr></blockquote>

Awww...thhhhpppptt! Sorry, but every time a "superhero" comic comes out that I can read, some traditionalist pops up with "Well why aren't there fights? Where are the costumes? Why aren't there any supervillains?"
Look, there's plenty of that crap still around. Go read it. Leave some books for those of us who can't stand that.

seemak
11-06-2002, 02:52 PM
i know casey has a definite direction for this book and i like where its heading (which is weird becuase i don't really like much of his work) but i really wish he would resolve some of dangling plotlines from the beginning of vol 2. he writes grifter and spartan well but it would be nice to see some attention paid to maul and warblade for crying out loud. whatever happened to them? and correct me if i am wrogn but hasn't grifter had like 4 solo series? he has had at least 3 for sure (counting PB). seriously, i am sick of wildcats as "the spartan, grifter and zealot show." other than that. keep up the good work boys

I'm a nerd
11-06-2002, 03:13 PM
I after almost no interest in Vol. 2 after Travis Charest left, but after reading Serial Boxes, I wanted to get the rest of the issues in Vol. 2.

Man, Dustin Nguyen kicks ass on the art, and you know there aren't gonna be any fill-ins or late books either, cuz I think I read somewhere that he's already on issue 6 or 7.

Love the corporate superhero thing, wondering if this idea has been done in comics before?

Oh yeah, I think Casey doesn't wanna bring back Maul and Voodoo cuz he sort of gave them an ending at the end of Vol. 2.

d477wt
11-06-2002, 04:11 PM
[quote]Originally posted by NicholasWyche:
<strong>


Awww...thhhhpppptt! Sorry, but every time a "superhero" comic comes out that I can read, some traditionalist pops up with "Well why aren't there fights? Where are the costumes? Why aren't there any supervillains?"
Look, there's plenty of that crap still around. Go read it. Leave some books for those of us who can't stand that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

thats the type of attitude the comic industry doesnt need.its the people who buy that so called superhero crap that keep the industry going so you can buy stuff like this.unlike you i dont call this comic crap even though i dont care for it as much.stop sounding like a snob who thinks only people who like wildcats 3.0 are the smart people who like quality.all kind of comics are relevant whether you like it or not. :)

Hdefined
11-06-2002, 05:29 PM
This is the man who assured us he'd be redefining the X-Men for the new generation, and the same man who thought "Superman vs a bunch of villains" would be an amazingly original and powerful concept for Ending Battle. Not interested, sorry.

Franklin Harris
11-06-2002, 06:08 PM
[quote]Originally posted by tralfaz:
<strong>

holy geezuz, it's a comic book. And who says it cant be done in secret? entertainment man, let it go.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, that didn't take long. Nevertheless, Wildcats would work better as a commentary on real corporate culture if it played by something more like real corporate rules. I get the impression that this is the sort of relevance Casey wants.

Jonas.Vesterlund
11-06-2002, 06:46 PM
WILDCATS 3.0 is together with POINT BLANK two of the best monthly comics out there. Casey is right DC does not really know what they got here. It is everything Marvel's MAX line is not:-/

WHile I can't say that Casey's X-Men was any were close to the hype some people (including himself) gave it.....well WILDCATS 3.0 and AUTOMATIK KAFKA are just awsome. Two very different books that shocases Casey's AND EYE OF THE STORMS diversity.

If you have not read it...well you probably should!

Tyrion_Targaryen
11-06-2002, 06:57 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Ed Brubaker:
<strong>I have to agree that Wildcats 3.0 is probably the best "team" book on the market right now.

It's what the Ultimates wishes it was, a grown up relevant superhero comic. And the big plus, it's not just rehashing old Marvel comics from the 60s and 70s.</strong><hr></blockquote>

First off, let me state that I've been a fan of both Wildcats and Ultimates since the very first issues of both series. While I do agree that Wildcats 3.0 is a great team book, I don't agree with your somewhat venomous comment about the Ultimates. The Ultimates aren't rehashing what's been done in the past. They've taken characters and given them a completely new and fresh vibe that in a way makes them completely different from the Avengers series. I've yet to see in any other comic book where a ceremony is held honoring the senseless death of a hundred people. I've yet to see any comic book where spousal abuse is shown in it's frightful and savage horror, something that is common in our society today. If those things aren't "relevant" to life today, I fail to see what is. Perhaps thats why the Ultimates is one of the best selling comic books right now. Perhaps thats why it's been so critically acclaimed. It must be great because it's so "irrelevant".

I would hate to think that jealousy over it's popularity, stellar writing, and beautifully rendered art would be the reason for your disdain.

Btw, I plan on picking up Point Blank soon because it features one of my favorite characters, Grifter. I've heard great things about it and I'll make sure to grab all the issues that are currently out.

tralfaz
11-06-2002, 07:37 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Franklin Harris:
<strong>

Well, that didn't take long. Nevertheless, Wildcats would work better as a commentary on real corporate culture if it played by something more like real corporate rules. I get the impression that this is the sort of relevance Casey wants.</strong><hr></blockquote>

so are there aliens running corporations? I see your point, but I read this book to be entertained. So how exactly does Batman/Bruce Wayne get his toys? Corporations don't follow rules anyway.

Star Boy
11-06-2002, 08:03 PM
Wildcats 3.0 - one of the more thought provoking reads out there at the moment, although definately not for everyone. If you don't mind your stories with a little less spandex and a bit more cerebellum, then Wildcats should appeal.

Engaging characters, a storyline that could go anywhere, and beautiful, beautiful art.

And it's only 3 issues in, so you've still got a chance to go out a grab copies. :D

IanZL
11-06-2002, 09:47 PM
If you have the right people in your pocket and enough money then I'm sure you could realistically buy a company overnight. I mean anything can be done with money.

Oh yeah, and Casey did revolutionize X-men, or at least was up until retards like you started whining about what he was doing.

beta-ray
11-06-2002, 10:44 PM
[quote]Oh yeah, and it’s got art by Dustin Nguyen...hubba.<hr></blockquote>

What is so good about Dustin Nguyen's art? Don't see much evidence here (it looks okay)... what else has he done?

Jeremy Williams
11-06-2002, 11:50 PM
Posted by Ed Brubaker:

"I have to agree that Wildcats 3.0 is probably the best "team" book on the market right now."

It`s a team? I didn`t know that

"It's what the Ultimates wishes it was, a grown up relevant superhero comic."

To be fair, if The Ultimates was as slow-paced as Wildcats with characters such as Hulk, Captain America and the rest, we`ll all be calling for Mark Millar`s head right now(although issue 7 was a lot of talking). Joe can do anything he want because nobody cares about the characters he`s playing with.

NicholasWyche
11-07-2002, 01:19 AM
[quote]Originally posted by d477wt:
<strong>

thats the type of attitude the comic industry doesnt need.its the people who buy that so called superhero crap that keep the industry going so you can buy stuff like this.unlike you i dont call this comic crap even though i dont care for it as much.stop sounding like a snob who thinks only people who like wildcats 3.0 are the smart people who like quality.all kind of comics are relevant whether you like it or not. :) </strong><hr></blockquote>


Sorry, you're wrong. You're right that I am a snob when it comes to quality, but it's the head-in-the-sand mentality that will and does hurt the growth of the comics industry. Just because traditionalists are currently spending the majority of money does not mean that is how it always should be. If the industry and the artform are going to grow it will be outside of typical, traditional, superhero comics.
Whenever someone tries something different (i.e. Casey's WILDCATS) the old guard come along and go "Why can't it be like it was?" The reason things HAVE to change is because you don't get new and better results doing the same old thing. Things have to change in order for growth to happen. That change seems to frighten and anger the old guard fans (I'm attempting to refrain from using "fanboy") and they speak up and gripe just like you did.
Get over it. There will always be books of the type that you like, but there HAS to be more than just those types of books. And before you cry "There already are!" Yes there are, but not that many from major publishers like DC. When they, or Marvel, begin to try something different it is to be applauded, not decried.

COREMARK
11-07-2002, 01:29 AM
I've never been a big fan of Casey's work, but Wildcats 3.0 has been great so far. The concept, characters and art are all amazing, you really should be buying this book.

d477wt
11-07-2002, 09:01 AM
[quote]Originally posted by NicholasWyche:
<strong>

Sorry, you're wrong. You're right that I am a snob when it comes to quality, but it's the head-in-the-sand mentality that will and does hurt the growth of the comics industry. Just because traditionalists are currently spending the majority of money does not mean that is how it always should be. If the industry and the artform are going to grow it will be outside of typical, traditional, superhero comics.
Whenever someone tries something different (i.e. Casey's WILDCATS) the old guard come along and go "Why can't it be like it was?" The reason things HAVE to change is because you don't get new and better results doing the same old thing. Things have to change in order for growth to happen. That change seems to frighten and anger the old guard fans (I'm attempting to refrain from using "fanboy") and they speak up and gripe just like you did.
Get over it. There will always be books of the type that you like, but there HAS to be more than just those types of books. And before you cry "There already are!" Yes there are, but not that many from major publishers like DC. When they, or Marvel, begin to try something different it is to be applauded, not decried.</strong><hr></blockquote>

you dont bring in readership by insulting people for not liking the type of books that you do.if people like you who love these type of comics would share your reasons for liking without the name calling nonsense that fan boys get caught up in than more ideas would be shared.when you call people retards,old guards,or stupid for liking superhero comics ,do you think that will make them say wow ill buy point blank and wildcats now? why dont the so called fans of intelligent comics act intelligent and save your type of comics.dont shut people out why not embrace people who think differently than you. :)

JimHughs4
11-07-2002, 10:15 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Tyrion_Targaryen:
<strong>

First off, let me state that I've been a fan of both Wildcats and Ultimates since the very first issues of both series. While I do agree that Wildcats 3.0 is a great team book, I don't agree with your somewhat venomous comment about the Ultimates. The Ultimates aren't rehashing what's been done in the past. They've taken characters and given them a completely new and fresh vibe that in a way makes them completely different from the Avengers series. I've yet to see in any other comic book where a ceremony is held honoring the senseless death of a hundred people. I've yet to see any comic book where spousal abuse is shown in it's frightful and savage horror, something that is common in our society today. If those things aren't "relevant" to life today, I fail to see what is. Perhaps thats why the Ultimates is one of the best selling comic books right now. Perhaps thats why it's been so critically acclaimed. It must be great because it's so "irrelevant".

I would hate to think that jealousy over it's popularity, stellar writing, and beautifully rendered art would be the reason for your disdain.

Btw, I plan on picking up Point Blank soon because it features one of my favorite characters, Grifter. I've heard great things about it and I'll make sure to grab all the issues that are currently out.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I agree with Mr. Brubaker about Ultimates. Not that I dislike it, exactly- I read the trade and have considered buying it. But 95% of the concepts in that book have come from other writers and artists. The execution is excellent, what with Bryan Hitch's artwork and Millar's well-done dialogue, but he is building on the work of others without really bringing a whole lot to the table himself. I think Ultimates is exactly what it was pushed as- updating these old characters while still keeping them recognizable.

And just to keep things straight, the preceding comments were in no way motivated by jealousy.

Tyrion_Targaryen
11-07-2002, 05:48 PM
[quote]Originally posted by JimHughs4:
<strong>

Well, I agree with Mr. Brubaker about Ultimates. Not that I dislike it, exactly- I read the trade and have considered buying it. But 95% of the concepts in that book have come from other writers and artists. The execution is excellent, what with Bryan Hitch's artwork and Millar's well-done dialogue, but he is building on the work of others without really bringing a whole lot to the table himself. I think Ultimates is exactly what it was pushed as- updating these old characters while still keeping them recognizable.

And just to keep things straight, the preceding comments were in no way motivated by jealousy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would like to get a response from Mr. Brubaker concerning his own comments if possible. His simple argument that the Ultimates wishes it was "Grown Up" is lacking sufficient evidence in my mind. You're right, the Ultimates does what it was intended to do. But that does not mean that it's done in a juvenile manner which Mr. Brubaker is inferring it is being executed. Casey is updating the Wildcats from the early 90's and Millar is in a sense reincarnating the Avengers from all the Lee and Ditko years into something new. And like another person on this thread already stated, there is no real sense of there being a "Team" in Wildcats. It is Spartan doing one thing, Grifter another, Wax off on another tangent. I have to agree, I like how it's being done, but the "Team" concept is better achieved by the ULtimates. And How would you define "Bringing something new to the table?" If anything, Millar has done just that. He's made Hank Pym into an insecure man who can't control his rage. He's made Bruce Banner into an insecure scientist with low self-esteem. He's made Iron Man into a person who is trying to change the world for the better during what little time he has left on the earth. He has SHIELD covering up the truth. He has the WASP as someone who stays with the same man,knowing his brutal tendencies and staying with him anyways. If anything, Millar has brought a sense of humanity into the Ultimates. If that's not bringing something "new" to the table, I don't know what is. I would like to hear Mr. Brubaker's rebuttal to his short and concise remark about the Ultimates. If he has the guts that is.

NicholasWyche
11-07-2002, 09:33 PM
[quote]Originally posted by d477wt:
<strong>

you dont bring in readership by insulting people for not liking the type of books that you do.if people like you who love these type of comics would share your reasons for liking without the name calling nonsense that fan boys get caught up in than more ideas would be shared.when you call people retards,old guards,or stupid for liking superhero comics ,do you think that will make them say wow ill buy point blank and wildcats now? why dont the so called fans of intelligent comics act intelligent and save your type of comics.dont shut people out why not embrace people who think differently than you. :) </strong><hr></blockquote>


Dude, I understand your point, but I've had too many conversations with fanboys trying to explain why superheroes being the 98% majority of material in comics is too narrow. The problem is, most of the traditionalists don't want to hear it. I won't go into what I think the reasons are, because it will just inflame more souls. I'm just gonna leave it alone. There are plenty of resources ALL OVER the web that will explain things to you. Go find them, I'm not exerting the energy to argue about it any more.

Graeme McMillan
11-07-2002, 10:06 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Tyrion_Targaryen:
<strong>And How would you define "Bringing something new to the table?" If anything, Millar has done just that. He's made Hank Pym into an insecure man who can't control his rage.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which is a rehash of a VERY old Avengers storyline, from 20 or so years ago.

[quote]Originally posted by Tyrion_Targaryen:
<strong>He's made Bruce Banner into an insecure scientist with low self-esteem.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Besides the fact that this isn't a new idea for portraying Banner, it's also worth pointing out that the idea that a genius-level scientist is insecure and has low self-esteem isn't the most original idea in the world these days...

[quote]Originally posted by Tyrion_Targaryen:
<strong>He's made Iron Man into a person who is trying to change the world for the better during what little time he has left on the earth.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which was the original Iron Man concept.

[quote]Originally posted by Tyrion_Targaryen:
<strong>He has SHIELD covering up the truth.</strong><hr></blockquote>

An organisation of secret agents covering up the truth? Shock! Horror!

[quote]Originally posted by Tyrion_Targaryen:
<strong>He has the WASP as someone who stays with the same man,knowing his brutal tendencies and staying with him anyways.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again, hardly original. And again, a rehash of the old Avengers storyline.

[quote]Originally posted by Tyrion_Targaryen:
<strong>If anything, Millar has brought a sense of humanity into the Ultimates. If that's not bringing something "new" to the table, I don't know what is.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bringing something new to the table doesn't necessarily equal bringing a sense of humanity... especially when Marvel has ALWAYS positioned itself as the company with the most human superheroes. All Mark is doing is continuing in the Mighty Marvel Tradition.

Sorry to disappoint.

Jeremy Williams
11-13-2002, 05:54 PM
Grim/Smile you imply that because these charcacters had problems before, that them having problems is not original. It`s must be sarcasm on your part, because what Millar has been doing so far is taking it to the next level with the basis of these heroes having problem. And it`s way more substantial to any super-hero comics that are on the stand right now. If you don`t see that, you`re hopeless i`m sorry. Especialy if you`re not actualy entertained, there`s a serious problem of denial.

The Blue Spider
11-13-2002, 07:48 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>Grim/Smile you imply that because these charcacters had problems before, that them having problems is not original. It`s must be sarcasm on your part, because what Millar has been doing so far is taking it to the next level with the basis of these heroes having problem. And it`s way more substantial to any super-hero comics that are on the stand right now. If you don`t see that, you`re hopeless i`m sorry. Especialy if you`re not actualy entertained, there`s a serious problem of denial.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>tell me what the next level is.

tell me what substantiality is.

relate it to Mark Millar's Ultimate comics and then to all other comic books on the stands right now.

</font>

The Blue Spider
11-13-2002, 07:49 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Franklin Harris:
<strong>Casey's Wildcats Version 3.0 would work better as a commentary on corporate culture if he gave readers some indication that he understands real-world corporate culture. In the first two issues, Casey has Marlowe buy out a couple of companies overnight and then tell his new employees, "I just bought your company. You now work for me." Well, that's cute and all, but a person simply cannot buy a publicly held company like that. You must file forms with the Securities and Exchange Commission. It can't be done overnight and in secret.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>It's been done before in fiction. Tony Stark did it in Iron Man in the early nineties.</font>

Graeme McMillan
11-13-2002, 09:40 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>...what Millar has been doing so far is taking it to the next level with the basis of these heroes having problem. And it`s way more substantial to any super-hero comics that are on the stand right now. If you don`t see that, you`re hopeless i`m sorry. Especialy if you`re not actualy entertained, there`s a serious problem of denial.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry that I'm hopeless, but you'll have to explain it to me... especially the way in which it's "way more substantial to [? Or do you mean "than"?] any super-hero comics that are on the stand right now"... And if I'm not entertained, that doesn't mean I'm in denial, just that I don't really get off on slow retreads of comics I've already read, no matter how pretty the art. Different strokes for different folks, you know...

Jeremy Williams
11-15-2002, 12:39 AM
Substantial(in this context)= mutli-dimensional, progressive, creative, new.

It`s not new that these characters have problems, but the way Millar does it, he takes it further by actualy showing that these guys are not even heroes or decent human beings. That has never happened before if i recall. Henry Pym has been drunk sometimes, and he turned on the team, but most of the time, he was confused or controled. Throughout Marvel stories, it never came across that these guys were not noble. When they`re not noble anymore, they usualy switch to the bad guys`sides. Even Wolverine is a hero with a code of honor. but in The Ultimates you have Hulk doing mass-killing!!! Pym almost kills his wife! Tony Stark is a party animal!

I just feel that taking these problems to the next level from what Stan Lee established, highly interests me. Because in real life, you could not creat so many superhuman characters and have them in the blink of an eye be this dandy super-hero team. Thor is a God, Hulk is an atomic Mr. Hyde, Ironman is a self-centered wealthy man. It would be next to impossible making a efficiant super-army out of them. But if someone tried in real life, it would be a treat to watch. And looking at this concept in an actual more realistic manner is, looking at these troubled freak and what make them tick, is a joy to behold.

Nobody has ever attempted that before on that level. How would the Avengers really be? This is it.

The Blue Spider
11-15-2002, 02:25 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>Substantial(in this context)= mutli-dimensional, progressive, creative, new.

It`s not new that these characters have problems, but the way Millar does it, he takes it further by actualy showing that these guys are not even heroes or decent human beings. That has never happened before if i recall. Henry Pym has been drunk sometimes, and he turned on the team, but most of the time, he was confused or controled. Throughout Marvel stories, it never came across that these guys were not noble. When they`re not noble anymore, they usualy switch to the bad guys`sides. Even Wolverine is a hero with a code of honor. but in The Ultimates you have Hulk doing mass-killing!!! Pym almost kills his wife! Tony Stark is a party animal!

I just feel that taking these problems to the next level from what Stan Lee established, highly interests me. Because in real life, you could not creat so many superhuman characters and have them in the blink of an eye be this dandy super-hero team. Thor is a God, Hulk is an atomic Mr. Hyde, Ironman is a self-centered wealthy man. It would be next to impossible making a efficiant super-army out of them. But if someone tried in real life, it would be a treat to watch. And looking at this concept in an actual more realistic manner is, looking at these troubled freak and what make them tick, is a joy to behold.

Nobody has ever attempted that before on that level. How would the Avengers really be? This is it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>well, I took the liberty of looking of what substantial means, just to provide a reference for what I already know.

Substantial does not mean any of the defintions you listed. Let the evil begin!

Main Entry: sub·stan·tial
Pronunciation: s&b-'stan(t)-sh&l
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
1 a : consisting of or relating to substance b : not imaginary or illusory : REAL, TRUE c : IMPORTANT, ESSENTIAL
2 : ample to satisfy and nourish : FULL <a substantial meal>
3 a : possessed of means : WELL-TO-DO b : considerable in quantity : significantly great <earned a substantial wage>
4 : firmly constructed : STURDY
5 : being largely but not wholly that which is specified <a substantial lie>
- substantial noun
- sub·stan·ti·al·i·ty /-"stan(t)-shE-'a-l&-tE/ noun
- sub·stan·tial·ly /-'stan(t)-sh(&-)lE/ adverb
- sub·stan·tial·ness /-'stan(t)-sh&l-n&s/ noun

Is the Ultimates any of the above? Well you said it was real but you did not match that to your definition.

We really couldn't escape cliches either. What is the next level? Further to what?

Okay. We could assume that so many of these things have not been done before. Let's assume wrong.

Henry Pym has never been drunk. He has turned on the team more than once under a variety of circumstances and each time nearly killed them all. So killing your friends, family, and close relatives is not really new. He has also defeated his (ex-)wife in combat enough times to say that they fight.

In his own title we have had the Hulk mass-killing. The Ultimates spells it out far more graphically, which hardly makes it more real.

Actually in the Ultimates Tony Stark is a man driven to do good in the world before the tumor in his brain kills him.

In the Iron Man title we saw Tony Stark convert from a "party animal" to a man driven to do good in the world before the shrapnel near his heart finally kills him. That was in the sixties. You know, the decade with comics so much less realistic.

It was more than a year between the time that the heroes were created and when they first assembled as the Avengers. Let's zoom in on the membership there. The Wasp spent her time trying to get Ant-Man jealous. Iron Man was a wealthy superhero.
Thor was a god taught humility by a mortal existence. The Hulk was an atomic Mr Hyde. No one liked the Hulk. No one trusted the Hulk. In the second issue the Hulk quit the team in a fit of anger because the rest of the team did not trust him and were perfectly willing to fight him.

In the third issue the Hulk teamed up with the Sub-Mariner to battle his former partners.

The Avengers then spent their time hunting for the Hulk and the Sub-Mariner.

In issue 4 Captain America joined the team and gradually proved himself to be the stabilizing factor. Issue 4 also was a brawl with the Sub-Mariner and his forces.

To be perfectly accurate, the formation and successful implemention of the Avengers as a successful was less instantaneous than you assert and far more gradual than one might believe. In fact the only reason why they did better than the Ultimates was because each member was a superhuman for the better part of a year before they joined together. They had experience with their powers and knew their own abilities.

Instead of freaks and juveniles assembled to battle theoretical threats as we are presented we had an adequate and apropriate portrayal of experienced, mature demigods assembling to battle tangible and powerful threats to the earth. Overall, given that even real people with real problems can be noble, I don't quite see why it's a joy to behold ignoble superpowered individuals who happen to have problems.

C'mon. You're not trying hard enough. Convince me! or concede.</font>

The Blue Spider
11-15-2002, 02:33 AM
<font color=blue>To sum it up, the Ultimates is not new, not realistic, not particularly progressive. And you don't know what substantial means.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
- Inigo Montoya
</font>

Tyrion_Targaryen
11-16-2002, 02:42 AM
Would love to hear Brubaker's defense of his own comments.

Jeremy Williams
11-16-2002, 06:28 AM
What can i say Blue Spider, i`m going to let you drown in your own hateful delusions here...

Graeme McMillan
11-16-2002, 11:35 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>Substantial(in this context)= mutli-dimensional, progressive, creative, new.

It`s not new that these characters have problems, but the way Millar does it, he takes it further by actualy showing that these guys are not even heroes or decent human beings. That has never happened before if i recall.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Superheroes that aren't even decent human beings? No, that's never happened before. Especially not in books like Miller's Dark Knight Returns, Moore's Watchmen, Giffen's Justice League run, Morrison's Doom Patrol, John Smith's New Statesmen, and countless other comics post 1987.

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>Henry Pym has been drunk sometimes, and he turned on the team, but most of the time, he was confused or controled. Throughout Marvel stories, it never came across that these guys were not noble. When they`re not noble anymore, they usualy switch to the bad guys`sides. Even Wolverine is a hero with a code of honor. but in The Ultimates you have Hulk doing mass-killing!!! Pym almost kills his wife! Tony Stark is a party animal!</strong><hr></blockquote>

As Blue Spider has already pointed out, Tony Stark was ALWAYS a party animal. Hank Pym in Avengers lore wasn't just drunk, he was literally mad - this is the man who had a schizophrenic episode, claimed to have killed himself and before physically attacking the Wasp way back in the 60s, after all. It wasn't as simple as "he was drunk or possessed", nor what Mark is giving us ("He's, like, a superhero, okay? But he gets depressed and beats his wife!"), which is a nicer version of characters like The Comedian.

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>I just feel that taking these problems to the next level from what Stan Lee established, highly interests me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You can be interested. I'm glad you're interested. But insulting people who aren't, and claiming that what Millar is doing is brand new, are both things you shouldn't really be doing...

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>Because in real life, you could not creat so many superhuman characters and have them in the blink of an eye be this dandy super-hero team. Thor is a God, Hulk is an atomic Mr. Hyde, Ironman is a self-centered wealthy man. It would be next to impossible making a efficiant super-army out of them. But if someone tried in real life, it would be a treat to watch. And looking at this concept in an actual more realistic manner is, looking at these troubled freak and what make them tick, is a joy to behold.

Nobody has ever attempted that before on that level. How would the Avengers really be? This is it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Read the Avengers Essentials. You'll see just how much Millar has ripped off for the Ultimates. The mistrust, the media angle, the lack of well-honed fighting machine, it's all there in the first issues that Stan and Jack came up with...

Jeremy Williams
11-17-2002, 01:42 AM
Posted by Grim:

You can be interested. I'm glad you're interested. But insulting people who aren't, and claiming that what Millar is doing is brand new, are both things you shouldn't really be doing...

Man, the paranoia and hate is baffling here. For one thing i didn`t insult you, and for you to say that what Millar is doing is nothing new, 100% nothing new is very delusional. I`m not making an insult, you know in yourself that it`s true: you dislike Mark and his work so much that even the int that he may have something new in his work, can`t be accepted.

I`ve read so much comics in my life that i can recognises what`s new and what isn`t. The reason i like The Ultimates is because I NEVER SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT BEFORE IN MY LIFE!!! That`s the reason i`m buying this thing. That`s why i`m excited about this series every time an issue comes out. If you say otherwise, it slap in the face of every fans that read this thing. Are they all wrong and you`re right? It`s not a comic that reinvent the wheel on super-heroes, but there`s enough of a new angle here to have me interested and save my money to get it no matter what.

Graeme McMillan
11-17-2002, 11:13 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>Man, the paranoia and hate is baffling here. For one thing i didn`t insult you,</strong><hr></blockquote>

You've called me hopeless and delusional. Just for not agreeing with your opinion...

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>and for you to say that what Millar is doing is nothing new, 100% nothing new is very delusional. I`m not making an insult, you know in yourself that it`s true: you dislike Mark and his work so much that even the int that he may have something new in his work, can`t be accepted.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think so... Especially considering that there really ISN'T anything new going on in The Ultimates. The idea of unlikable heroes has been seen before in multiple works that I mentioned above, especially in Moore's Watchmen and V for Vendetta, where the heroes are much less decent than in Ultimates. The enlongated pacing of the stories is heavily influenced not only by Ultimate Spider-Man but by Warren Ellis's and Grant Morrison's work. The plots themselves are based on the old Avengers plots. Where is the new? Honestly?

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>I`ve read so much comics in my life that i can recognises what`s new and what isn`t. The reason i like The Ultimates is because I NEVER SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT BEFORE IN MY LIFE!!! That`s the reason i`m buying this thing. That`s why i`m excited about this series every time an issue comes out. If you say otherwise, it slap in the face of every fans that read this thing. Are they all wrong and you`re right? It`s not a comic that reinvent the wheel on super-heroes, but there`s enough of a new angle here to have me interested and save my money to get it no matter what.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I may just have read other comics, and recognise what's influenced the work where you haven't... to assume that if YOU think it's new means that that's necessarily the case is more than a little egocentric. Not to mention that just because I don't think it's new doesn't mean that it's a slap in the face of any fans of the series, you're being more than slightly melodramatic here...

I'm glad you enjoy it. I'm glad that you're finding things in it that you haven't found before. Really. But don't go around declaring as fact that it's something that it's not, especially if others are going to disagree with you...

The Blue Spider
11-17-2002, 11:02 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Tyrion_Targaryen:
<strong>Would love to hear Brubaker's defense of his own comments.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>Brubaker made comments?</font>

The Blue Spider
11-17-2002, 11:03 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>What can i say Blue Spider, i`m going to let you drown in your own hateful delusions here...</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>Who did I say that I hated?</font>

Jeremy Williams
11-19-2002, 02:59 AM
Just that the comments responding to my comments were rude, like you wanted to "put me in my place" kind-of way. I mean, going to the dictionnary to type the definition? Jeez...

Jeremy Williams
11-19-2002, 03:11 AM
Posted by Grim:

I'm glad you enjoy it. I'm glad that you're finding things in it that you haven't found before. Really. But don't go around declaring as fact that it's something that it's not, especially if others are going to disagree with you...

You can disagree with me, but i feel like you have ulterior motives. To say that it has NOTHING new is absolutly ridiculous. And i would like to know what you find NEW enough in comics that would excite you.

Anyway, it`s pretty much pointless at this time to discuss this in regard to the what Ed Brubacker posted about Wildcats and The Ultimates considering that you like nothing about The Ultimates and the discusions was about the merits of saying what Ed said. That Wildcats had more value than The Ultimates as a concept or something like that. Like i would never have an extended discussion about Power Company because i find nothing of worth about it so i would just p*ssed-off their fans.

Graeme McMillan
11-19-2002, 10:26 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>You can disagree with me, but i feel like you have ulterior motives. To say that it has NOTHING new is absolutly ridiculous. And i would like to know what you find NEW enough in comics that would excite you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

New enough in comics to excite me? You know, now that you mention it, I don't know. I could list what comics I enjoy, but as to which of them is really doing something new, I'm not sure the list would really go beyond "Pictures That Tick" and "The Filth"... I just go for comics that have subject matter that excites me, that I find well done in some way or another.

I'd love to know what "ulterior motives" you think I have, by the way...

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>Anyway, it`s pretty much pointless at this time to discuss this in regard to the what Ed Brubacker posted about Wildcats and The Ultimates considering that you like nothing about The Ultimates and the discusions was about the merits of saying what Ed said. That Wildcats had more value than The Ultimates as a concept or something like that. Like i would never have an extended discussion about Power Company because i find nothing of worth about it so i would just p*ssed-off their fans.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, I was discussing Brubaker's comments, or at least the fallout following them, when fans started reacting badly to his (spot-on, in my opinion) characterisation of The Ultimates as "rehashing old Marvel comics from the 60s and 70s"...

I love this idea you seem to have that people who AREN'T fans of a work can't comment on it because that pisses off the fans, though. Whatever happened to the idea of criticism?