A BATMAN #608 FIELD REPORT [Archive]

MichaelDoran

11-01-2002, 02:45 AM

<img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/BMCv6082nd_t.jpg" width="150" height="229" alt="cover to BATMAN no. 609 2nd printing" align="right">With Batman no. 608 - already the #1 book for October - a sellout with the publisher (meaning they have sold out of all issues they printed to Diamond/retailers) as of last week, and a second printing on its way, Newsarama decided to check in with some retailers to see how the issue was moving from their shelves, and to see if reader demand has fallen short, met or exceeded their initial expectations.

In an informal (i.e. unscientific poll) of 20 retailers, we asked the following questions…

How their store ordered Batman #608 in comparison to its ‘normal’/previous Batman order levels?

How well did the retailers anticipate reader demand and how much more or less did they feel they should have ordered?

and

Do they expect to adjust their orders on December’s issue #609 due to this and if so, on what scale?

According to our survey, the retailers polled ordered Batman #608 at an average of over 4x their normal Batman #’s, including reorders [Batman #608 was Diamond's most reordered and advanced reordered comic for the week of 10/15-21 *and most reordered comic for the week of the 22nd-28th].

One retailer added he would order the second printing of issue #608 in the same quantities as his order for the first printing, another saying he could have sold 10x his pre-Jim Lee/Jeph Loeb figures and would be placing a reorder that exceeded his initial order.

If you’re getting the sense retailers in our anecdotal little poll on average underestimated demand, you’d be right. About 2/3rds of the retailers polled said they underestimated demand [two of them reporting having sold out the same day with another handful sold-out before the end of last week] with the other 3rd saying they had anticipated it just right.

No retailer who responded reported overestimating demand.

And as likely pleased as DC is over the success of issue #608, taking the more long-term macro view, there are also encouraging signs for them in terms of subsequent issues.

Again, asked how they initially ordered November’s issue #609 [already the #6 comic on Diamond initial November sales chart] and if the demand for #608 has affected their orders, nearly ¾’s of the retailers polled said they would increase their initial orders of Batman #609, with the other ¼ saying they’d stick to their initial estimations for the time being.

All in all the retailers who participated on average said they plan to order #609 at over 3.7x times their normal Batman orders.

“This was a beautiful book, and Lee's art hit a home run for a lot of comic fans,” said JC Glindmyer of Earthworld Comics in Albany, NY. “And the $2.25 price tag didn't hurt either. One customer came in with his girlfriend, he practically ran to the rack and exclaimed ‘I've been waiting for this book!’ His girlfriend was surprised and said ‘I've never seen you this excited’!”

Are you a retailer with your own story about Batman #608? A reader with an observation about demand? Share your stories with all Newsarama.com readers here.

Darkhawk

11-01-2002, 03:28 AM

I haven't seen my store sell out yet, but there's not that much into comics around here...but once if it starts to go up, I'm sure it'll sell out.

arthur pendragon

11-01-2002, 03:44 AM

The article stated, "One customer came in with his girlfriend, he practically ran to the rack and exclaimed ‘I've been waiting for this book!’ His girlfriend was surprised and said ‘I've never seen you this excited’!"

It sounds to me like he needs a new girlfriend. ;)

enabler

11-01-2002, 03:49 AM

[quote]It sounds to me like he needs a new girlfriend.<hr></blockquote>

LOL! Good point, actually...

11-01-2002, 04:28 AM

[quote]Originally posted by arthur pendragon:
It sounds to me like he needs a new girlfriend. ;) <hr></blockquote>

...Hell, I'm surprised he actually has one.

TTROY

11-01-2002, 04:37 AM

StarSaber

11-01-2002, 07:22 AM

Thats great at least it shows the demand for it.

We rung up last week here in the UK for reorders on the Thursday and we got laughed at on the phone saying it had gone straight to reprint.

Our stock increased by demand by 30% as soon as the preview art for the issue came out and everyone knew it was Jim Lee.

AllAboutMe

11-01-2002, 07:30 AM

It's great to see any book doing so well. It's great to see fans genuinly excited about a book whose only gimmick is it's creative team.
As for the actual contents: Eh.
Story was nothing mind blowing and Jim's art was a little disappointing. I was hoping Jim had evolved a little. I remember being so awed by Jim in the X-Men days. I guess I have evolved. (I hope so: I used to like McFarlane on Spidey, but I look at those issues now and wonder what I was thinking)
Still, a great shot in the arm for Batman and comics in general.
Buy and read comics.

MurrayC

11-01-2002, 08:47 AM

[quote]Originally posted by AllAboutMe:
...Jim's art was a little disappointing. I was hoping Jim had evolved a little.<hr></blockquote>

I would much rather have "bad" Jim Lee art than "good" Ted McKeever art any day. I remember reading somewhere that even Jim felt he didn't get into a groove with Batman until after his fourth issue. "AllAboutMe"? Hmmmm... You're not Erik Larsen by any chance are you?

Kal-el

11-01-2002, 09:42 AM

[quote]One retailer added he would order the second printing of issue #608 in the same quantities as his order for the first printing, another saying he could have sold 10x his pre-Jim Lee/Jeph Loeb figures and would be placing a reorder that exceeded his initial order.
<hr></blockquote>

What is wrong with these retailers!! They just don't seem to "get it"! They need to hold back about 5 copies and if their loyal customers come in after Wed, charge them $10 - $20 for the book. Why don't they understand that they could make a 1000% profit on those 5 books. I'm glad Jemas understands that to reprint these books you have to bundle them with another book and charge more for it. How dare DC take the risk of going back to press or overprinting a book they have faith in. Retailers want to sell collectibles not books to be read.
:rolleyes:

pupaboy

11-01-2002, 09:49 AM

My local retailer did not sell out. He still has about 8 or 9 copies left on the rack. I was unimpress by the book itself. Sure Jim Lee's art was nice but the story was nothing special. Storywise, it was another run of the mill Batman story. Although, I did noticed that Jim drew it in the old Image/Wildcats style with lots of pinups/money shots which I am sure he can sell to convention fan boyz for big $$. I was left disappointed by the book but I guess it is all about the money.

rockieman

11-01-2002, 09:59 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Kal-el:


What is wrong with these retailers!! They just don't seem to "get it"! They need to hold back about 5 copies and if their loyal customers come in after Wed, charge them $10 - $20 for the book. Why don't they understand that they could make a 1000% profit on those 5 books. I'm glad Jemas understands that to reprint these books you have to bundle them with another book and charge more for it. How dare DC take the risk of going back to press or overprinting a book they have faith in. Retailers want to sell collectibles not books to be read.
:rolleyes: <hr></blockquote>

Now, now, be nice. Instead of worrying about Batman being sold out, just wander over to the rack where Marville is. There are PLENTY of copies left.

Feel better? :D

Augie De Blieck Jr.

11-01-2002, 10:16 AM

Or, perhaps, retailers purposefully underordered because they knew that they could reorder. Where's the incentive to take a chance and order more, when DC is assuming that entirely?

Now I don't want to hear any complaints from the Marvel-bashers (who are waiting for the trade) in a year and a half when DC still hasn't scheduled the collection for this series. Marvel would have it out the month after it finished.

-Augie

Ian

11-01-2002, 10:28 AM

My shop has 23 copies sitting on the shelf.

Brian Wink

11-01-2002, 10:35 AM

Hank Wirtz

11-01-2002, 10:57 AM

My main gripe with the issue was the coloring. I love Alex Sinclair's stuff, but he colored Batman the same way he colors Astro City. Or at least the colors seemed WAY too bright for a Bat-book. Maybe he toned it down, but not nearly enough.

I was glad to see Loeb control his usual impulse to turn in a 40-panel script. No wonder he gets all the "hot" artists to work with hi, they get to draw nothing but splash pages. This story seemed unusual for Loeb because it was denser than his normal fare.

Wade @ Sighnub.com

11-01-2002, 11:03 AM

I am a huge Jim Lee fan, but I will be waiting for the trade on this. I am just not a huge Batman fan.

Tim

11-01-2002, 11:06 AM

The most interesting thing I think for our store is not the increase in shelf sales, which we predicted, but the number of people coming in off the street to set up a subscription with us for the entire run. I would say that we had about a 15% increase in subscribers before #608 came out, and another 20-35% increase the week it did come out. That's about a 50% increase in subscribers on a book that had solid subscriber numbers to begin with. So now we have solid numbers for gauranteed sales over all, which will help us determine how many copies over all to order. So yes, we will be advance ordering #609 to cover our new subscribers, which means more copies for the shelf.
What's cool about subscribers, is that even if they only order one title initially, a large percentage will branch out to try different titles. Maybe they'll try some of the other Bat-books, or something different all together. Because I can rely on DC to get more copies if I need them, my sales will grow.

Academic

11-01-2002, 11:08 AM

[quote]Originally posted by TTROY:
I think the best point about this whole article is not about issue 608 but the expexted demand for 609 at DC you can reorder that title if this was marvel those are sales lost...never to be heard from again..<hr></blockquote>

Not true at all. Look in Previews and you'll see an "order cut off date" that comes after the monthly order is due, which allows retailers a grace time (of usually up to three weeks before the book is due on shelves) to place re-orders. Marvel isn't stupid, and neither is DC or Image: the point of a good book is really to increase sales on the next book.

Academic

11-01-2002, 11:16 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Augie De Blieck Jr.:
Or, perhaps, retailers purposefully underordered because they knew that they could reorder. Where's the incentive to take a chance and order more, when DC is assuming that entirely?
<hr></blockquote>

The incentive being that there are people who want first prints.

Personally, I'd like Newsarama to identify (just like Jemas should do) WHERE these retailers are and their approximate size. I know around here, most stores saw an increase in sales for Batman #608 but there's still plenty of copies to be had... and when I ask, it doesn't seem retailers are getting many requests for Batman #609 even with the sign "reserve yours today" right above #608.

John Jakala

11-01-2002, 11:17 AM

Starpilot

11-01-2002, 11:18 AM

[quote]Originally posted by arthur pendragon:
It sounds to me like he needs a new girlfriend. ;) <hr></blockquote>

If BATMAN #608 is what gets him most excited, maybe she needs a new boyfriend. ;)

SpaceDog

11-01-2002, 11:27 AM

The book is well worth the hype. I think interest will be maintained at a similar level for the whole run. DC should be doing everything in their power to encourage both men to stay longer on the title - or even move them from title to title generating this kind of hype and interest.

choisez

11-01-2002, 12:48 PM

My LCS ordered double their usual Batman issues and sold out by the weekend.

I also saw several dealers selling the issue for $5-$8 at a recent convention. One person happily bought an issue for $6.

It's amazing to see the highest-selling comic of the month already making such profits in a matter of days.

People seem to be coming out of the woodwork to see what all the hype is about. Almost as if the "sold-out" status creates it's own demand.

A friend even called me to pick him up an issue and he stopped buying comics in the mid-90's.

-Eddy
<a href="http://groups.msn.com/artofjimlee" target="_blank">http://groups.msn.com/artofjimlee</a>

csGuy

11-01-2002, 12:56 PM

I LOVE this type of article and hope newsarama does more of 'em in the future.

I've always wanted to know what Bat-books sales were like after the ten-cent adventure. Or more generally if there were any long lasting effects to FCBD.

Follow up stories make me happy =)

Barry

11-01-2002, 12:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Augie De Blieck Jr.:
Or, perhaps, retailers purposefully underordered because they knew that they could reorder. Where's the incentive to take a chance and order more, when DC is assuming that entirely?

Now I don't want to hear any complaints from the Marvel-bashers (who are waiting for the trade) in a year and a half when DC still hasn't scheduled the collection for this series. Marvel would have it out the month after it finished.

-Augie<hr></blockquote>

Considering the success of this run, I have a feeling DC will do the same with the trade. And the fact that DC isn't pushing all of the responsibility on the retailer to take a chance on unreturnable books that they publish, speaks volumes in terms of their professionalism and business sense.

Hollands

11-01-2002, 01:02 PM

I can only vouch for the demand at my local stores, of which I have 5 within half an hour.
4 of these stores were sold out by last Saturday with the 5th store holding back a few copies until the price gets up to $5-$10.

Very strong demand of a great product. No matter what anyone says here Jim Lee can still "draw" a crowd. Pun intended.

Sock Puppet #9.5

11-01-2002, 01:17 PM

I am now the most popular sock on my street after giving away a LOT of comics last night.

Daniel Harvey

11-01-2002, 02:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Augie De Blieck Jr.:
Now I don't want to hear any complaints from the Marvel-bashers (who are waiting for the trade) in a year and a half when DC still hasn't scheduled the collection for this series. Marvel would have it out the month after it finished.
<hr></blockquote>

IIRC, the TPB for "Super Human" was released ON THE SAME DAY or within a week of Issue 6 of the "Ultimates" -- which as a collector of the individual series, I found insulting. It just seemed like they had the stand-alone book in the bag and could've released it earlier than they did.

[quote]Originally posted by Tim:
What's cool about subscribers, is that even if they only order one title initially, a large percentage will branch out to try different titles. Maybe they'll try some of the other Bat-books, or something different all together. Because I can rely on DC to get more copies if I need them, my sales will grow.<hr></blockquote>

Your shop allows people to subscribe for a single comic? At most shops I've seen there is a minimum limit (usally set in the teens) to set up a subscription.

Elayne

11-01-2002, 02:10 PM

[quote]Originally posted by AllAboutMe:
It's great to see any book doing so well. It's great to see fans genuinly excited about a book whose only gimmick is it's creative team.<hr></blockquote>

I suspect it's not just fans. My husband has minimal interest in most of the comics I buy, but he specifically requested I pick this up even if we get it later in a comp box. I think a lot of other pros who don't necessarily read a lot of comics are going out of their way to get this.

- Elayne

egads

11-01-2002, 02:48 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:


Considering the success of this run, I have a feeling DC will do the same with the trade. And the fact that DC isn't pushing all of the responsibility on the retailer to take a chance on unreturnable books that they publish, speaks volumes in terms of their professionalism and business sense.<hr></blockquote>

Has anyone considered the difference between Marvel's and DC's business practice has to due with the size of the company and who's their "daddy"? Marvel only has Marvel. If they lose money, they risk the chance of bankruptcy, and of course we've seen that before. If DC loses money? You think AOL really cares that much, when they are losing money elsewhere and looks at DC as a licensing division? Marvel is in business to keep itself profitable and in business. It's smart business for them to put the responsibility on the retailer, who are *GASP* a business themself. If Marvel followed what the retailers want, they would overprint books, reprint books, and if the reprinted or overprinted books didn't sell, they could be returned. Do you know how much money Marvel could lose? People always say Marvel loses money when they don't reprint comics, especially those that seem to be "hot". Well, I think it's better business to go for the guarantee sale, and not rely on retailers who couldn't order right in the first place and see the extra demand for certain books, to determine how many comics you should be selling. It's the retailer who UNDERESTIMATED and UNDERORDERED the comics in question, not Marvel. Marvel doesn't say to comic shop A you can only buy 50 copies of X-Men, no more or no less. What Marvel is saying is, determine how many people you can sell this comic to, determine if their will be an increase in demand, make a smart business decision and order the amount you think will satisfy that demand. Businesses do that every stinkin day. Why are retailers an exception to that practice?

Barry

11-01-2002, 03:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by egads:


Has anyone considered the difference between Marvel's and DC's business practice has to due with the size of the company and who's their "daddy"? Marvel only has Marvel. If they lose money, they risk the chance of bankruptcy, and of course we've seen that before. If DC loses money? You think AOL really cares that much, when they are losing money elsewhere and looks at DC as a licensing division? Marvel is in business to keep itself profitable and in business. It's smart business for them to put the responsibility on the retailer, who are *GASP* a business themself. If Marvel followed what the retailers want, they would overprint books, reprint books, and if the reprinted or overprinted books didn't sell, they could be returned. Do you know how much money Marvel could lose? People always say Marvel loses money when they don't reprint comics, especially those that seem to be "hot". Well, I think it's better business to go for the guarantee sale, and not rely on retailers who couldn't order right in the first place and see the extra demand for certain books, to determine how many comics you should be selling. It's the retailer who UNDERESTIMATED and UNDERORDERED the comics in question, not Marvel. Marvel doesn't say to comic shop A you can only buy 50 copies of X-Men, no more or no less. What Marvel is saying is, determine how many people you can sell this comic to, determine if their will be an increase in demand, make a smart business decision and order the amount you think will satisfy that demand. Businesses do that every stinkin day. Why are retailers an exception to that practice?<hr></blockquote>

This argument always cracks me up. Do you think AOL/TW just GIVES money to DC to burn? Each and every division of the company has a budget and a P&L that they must adhere to. If DC is losing lots and lots of money, their corporate parent just doesn't give them more. While it is true that they can take advantage of their corporate ties to share resources (space, technology, etc.), that's about it.

Remember, Marvel Comics is part of a larger corporation as well, just one that isn't as successful.

So I'm afraid your argument in that area is somewhat invalid.

As for putting the onus on the retailer to take all the risk, that's also a joke. The retailer should be the comic's company's best buddy and business partner, not someone that the company antagonizes with rigid and unfair business practices.

Furthermore, NOT every business works that way 'every stinkin' day'. An example close to home is when comics were primarily on the newsstand, they were returnable, like all magazines are. And with record or book stores, if they run out of a record or book, they can always order more. Unlike, say, a comic store ordering Marvel comics.

So again, your argument is invalid.

egads

11-01-2002, 03:38 PM

How is my argument invalid? Marvel Enterprises is the parent company of Marvel. They only deal with Marvel comics and the characters themselves. Thus they rely on their characters and comics to remain in business. DC is owned by AOL/TimeWarner. They don't rely on DC to stay in business. They have ventures in other periodicals, movies, music, the internet, etc....If people stopped by comics in general, which company is hurt more? Will you see AOL/TimeWarner go away, or will you see Marvel go away? (How much money did AOL/TimeWarner lose, in the billions? Ever hear about WCW and how money was thrown their, and only recently have they ended all contracts with wrestlers who wrestled in WCW).

How is my point not valid concerning retailers? Are they not a business? Are they not there to at least may money to stay even and not lose money? Isn't it up to the retailers to make a smart estimataion as too how many comics they sell? Isn't it the retailers who want an reprint policy so that they can sell more comics and make more money? The retailer, no matter how small, is running a business, and thus makes business decisions. Sure, your gripes make more sense if Marvel kept all the money that was made on the comics sold, but they don't. Retailers are like the middle man. They buy the comics at a discounted rate, sell them above that rate, and keep the difference, which is revenue. Whether it's a profit or not, is not a concern to Marvel since they are in the same business, to make money. Why should Marvel share the responsibility when none of the retailers shared the responsibility when Marvel was going through financial turmoil. They still made money on the comics they sold while Marvel was trying to get out of the red. Take some responsibility in this world and stop blaming other people for your lack for foresight. People make guesses everyday as to how many items they should sell, to see if they should maintain a surplus, as well as gauging the demand for said product. Are retailers suddenly exempt from such practice?

Let's take Halloween for example. Target buys 100 Spiderman costumes. They don't realize the popularity of Spiderman and soon sell out. They ask the costume maker for more, but the costume maker says we are out, and the rest of the orders are for those who ordered 200 costumes. Is it the costume makes fault that Target couldn't gauge the demand for the costume, and thus underordered? Furthermore, what if the costume maker produces 200 costumes for the 100 costumes ordered by Target, ships to them the extra 100, Target only sells 25 of them, then demands the costume maker to take back the 75 that didn't sell? You think companies want to hold a surplus on an item that they probably can't sell anymore? Surplus is not a good thing when you produce items. They go against the books, and at a certain time, you need to destroy the surplus and take it as a loss. Marvel is simply saying, we don't want to have a surplus, thus we are letting the retailer decide their own fate.

newarrior

11-01-2002, 04:21 PM

The store I work at (Comics Conspiracy, Sunnyvale, CA) tripled our order of #608 over our normal amount, limited 2 per person (unless preordered), and we still sold out by noon! Our savers for that run also tripled by the end of the day. We were able to get an extra 80 copies from an independant distributor, and we sold out AGAIN this past Wednesday. How do some stores still have copies of this book?

rockieman

11-01-2002, 04:24 PM

What happens when the books arrive damaged from Diamond, or Diamond shorts the order? With Marvel there is no recourse, that's it. With DC, the books are replaced.

Danilo Raul

11-01-2002, 04:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by arthur pendragon:
The article stated, "One customer came in with his girlfriend, he practically ran to the rack and exclaimed ‘I've been waiting for this book!’ His girlfriend was surprised and said ‘I've never seen you this excited’!"

It sounds to me like he needs a new girlfriend. ;) <hr></blockquote>

Hell he does, you can only get so much of the same pussy until you get bored...
:(

choisez

11-01-2002, 05:16 PM

Won't this issue be available on newsstands soon, making it easy for anyone to still pick up?

-Eddy
<a href="http://groups.msn.com/artofjimlee" target="_blank">http://groups.msn.com/artofjimlee</a>

mauer

11-01-2002, 06:15 PM

The shop I go to around here...it looked last night like they had a good 30-40 issues. I have to say I really wasn't impressed by the issue. The story seemed medicore, maybe it is going somewhere and is merely a set up...but it just didn't have much meat to it. I think one of my problems was it just seemed like a generic Super-hero story. I realize that Batman is the more Super-hero book and Detective the more well...Detective type stories, but Ed Brubaker's story seemed to have a little bit of both and were enjoyable. I'll keep with "Hush" for awhile longer to see if it gets better, but I'm really looking forward to Brubaker's Detective.

woodstock

11-01-2002, 08:07 PM

[quote]Buy and read comics. <hr></blockquote>

Comics suck. ;)

Seric

11-01-2002, 09:33 PM

Here at Camelot Comics in Newberg OR we still have a few on the racks, but it is selling very well. I am also happy DC is going to a second print, shows they have faith in their product, not like another company we all know.

Graeme McMillan

11-01-2002, 09:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
Marvel is in business to keep itself profitable and in business. It's smart business for them to put the responsibility on the retailer, who are *GASP* a business themself. If Marvel followed what the retailers want, they would overprint books, reprint books, and if the reprinted or overprinted books didn't sell, they could be returned. Do you know how much money Marvel could lose?<hr></blockquote>

I can see where you're going with this, but the problem in your thinking is that you seem to think that Marvel over- and re-printing books, and allowing returns, would be some kind of special deal, as opposed to an industry standard.

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
People always say Marvel loses money when they don't reprint comics, especially those that seem to be "hot". Well, I think it's better business to go for the guarantee sale, and not rely on retailers who couldn't order right in the first place and see the extra demand for certain books, to determine how many comics you should be selling. It's the retailer who UNDERESTIMATED and UNDERORDERED the comics in question, not Marvel.<hr></blockquote>

Because, obviously, all retailers are (a) psychic and can automatically know which books are going to sell out three or four months in advance of them being shipped (or, you know, in the case of a lot of Marvel product, not being shipped because it's running late), or (b) have bottomless pockets that allow them to speculate on their estimations without having to worry about what happens if the fans DON'T go for a self-proclaimed "hot book".

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
Marvel doesn't say to comic shop A you can only buy 50 copies of X-Men, no more or no less. What Marvel is saying is, determine how many people you can sell this comic to, determine if their will be an increase in demand, make a smart business decision and order the amount you think will satisfy that demand. Businesses do that every stinkin day. Why are retailers an exception to that practice?<hr></blockquote>

They're not. But they can be wrong. People are wrong "ever stinkin day". They can misjudge, or underestimate. At least with a book like Batman, DC's reprint policy allows for retailers to correct that mistake and keep customers who didn't manage to get the first print happy by giving them exactly what they wanted... which means more profits for the retailer AND the publisher. Marvel, however, either say "Wait for the trade" - by which point whatever "heat" the title has gained could well have gone (Origin, anyone?) - or "We'll publish a new version with two other comics that your readers probably aren't that interested in, and it'll be more expensive". Both ways don't give the customer what they wanted in the first place, run the risk of lost sales (well, practically guarantee lost sales, really), and lose money for everyone apart from the customers, who wanted to spend the money in the first place.

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
How is my argument invalid? Marvel Enterprises is the parent company of Marvel. They only deal with Marvel comics and the characters themselves.<hr></blockquote>

Not completely true. Look <a href="http://www.hoovers.com/co/capsule/5/0,2163,42835,00.html" target="_blank">here</a>:

"Marvel Enterprises' success rests on the strength of its characters. Formerly Toy Biz, the company uses its library of more than 4,700 characters (Spider-Man, X-Men) in toy development, publishing, and licensing. About 50% of sales come from toys -- action figures and games based on Marvel characters; items based on non-Marvel characters, including figures from the Lord of the Rings movie; and proprietary toys."

Okay? Now, look at this <a href="http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/11/28518" target="_blank">report</a> on Marvel's Q3 earnings:

"Sales by the Company's Toy Biz division increased by approximately $7.8 million from 1998 to 1999, primarily due to sales of World Championship Wrestling (``WCW'') action figures, a product line introduced in 1999, and increased sales of large and small dolls (specifically Kinder-Garden(TM) Babies and Miss Party Surprise), partially offset by a decline in the sales of Marvel-related products."

So, it looks like not only does Marvel Enterprises NOT deal exclusively with the comics and their own characters, but that non-Marvel Comics characters are helping to boost their profit quite significantly (not helped by the falling sales of Marvel Comics-related merchandise, bizarrely. Looks like the Spider-Man hype didn't help Marvel Comics that much after all...).

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
DC is owned by AOL/TimeWarner. They don't rely on DC to stay in business. They have ventures in other periodicals, movies, music, the internet, etc....If people stopped by comics in general, which company is hurt more? Will you see AOL/TimeWarner go away, or will you see Marvel go away? <hr></blockquote>

You might see DC go away, if TWAOL decide that it's not worth having a comic division that's losing so much money anymore. DC may be part of TWAOL, but they're not the same thing...

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
Let's take Halloween for example. Target buys 100 Spiderman costumes... what if the costume maker produces 200 costumes for the 100 costumes ordered by Target, ships to them the extra 100, Target only sells 25 of them, then demands the costume maker to take back the 75 that didn't sell?<hr></blockquote>

You misunderstand the idea of returns, I think. The direct market doesn't work on sale or return, the returns are only for mis-solicited, late or damaged books, as far as I know. So your above analogy doesn't really hold...

Yodamite

11-02-2002, 03:34 AM

[quote]Originally posted by choisez:
I also saw several dealers selling the issue for $5-$8 at a recent convention. One person happily bought an issue for $6.<hr></blockquote>This reminds me of the comic shop I frequented ten years ago. They marked up the Death of Superman issue for $35 on the day that it came out. And people actually bought 'em! The 90s sucked.

BookSpyder

11-02-2002, 04:38 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Augie De Blieck Jr.:
Or, perhaps, retailers purposefully underordered because they knew that they could reorder. Where's the incentive to take a chance and order more, when DC is assuming that entirely?

Now I don't want to hear any complaints from the Marvel-bashers (who are waiting for the trade) in a year and a half when DC still hasn't scheduled the collection for this series. Marvel would have it out the month after it finished.<hr></blockquote>

You dont want to hear any complaints? Boy, did you pick the wrong venue to post at.....

Yes, Marvel can get a TPB of any given storyline out as little as a month after the last chapter is published, but any hot Marvel book that can deliver six issues in six months is becoming the exception rather than the rule. And some of those TPBs that Marvel rushes out suffer from the worst pagination mistakes I've ever seen (Captain Britain and Marvel Boy, especially). Those kind of mistakes are bad enough in a regular book at $2.25, but in a TPB for $14.95 and up?

As Daniel Harvey posted earlier in this thread, The TPB for the Ultimates and issue 6 both hit the stands at about the same time. I only remember this because I had to go to a comic book store 50 miles away to find a copy selling for cover price and both the TPB and issue 6 were in the New Arrivals section. Considering that as few as the next three issues of the Ultimates are being re-solicited due to lateness, we can expect Book Two of the Ultimates about nine months to a year from now. If you're only reading the TPBs, this can be a long wait, especially with the implied cliffhanger ending at the end of Book One. Nine months to a year. Now that's what I call reader-friendly.

You're also missing an important point here. As reported here and at Comicon.com's The Pulse, Jim Lee wants to do 12 months on a regular book and to keep it on a monthly schedule. It's pretty exciting when one of the bigger names in comic art gives himself a goal to go after where his falure to meet it could be met with a lot of criticism and scorn. Hush could easily have been solicited as a 12 issue maxi-series like The Long Halloween or Dark Victory at a higher price point, but Lee insisted that his run be part of the regular series. This buys Lee and the regular Batman series a lot of exposure it otherwise may not get. I was able to buy enough copies to give to friends who asked for it without having to pay a premium for it or having to go to more than one comic book store.

Back to the topic, my local comic book store did very well with Batman #608. Just seeing the owner that happy with the sell-through took the sting out of finding out that he sold out all of his order of Global Frequency. But as I understand it, he can order more of it at his convenience, so I hope to be reading it soon.

Peace,
BookSpyder
-Glad to see Jim Lee back on a monthly, even if it's only for a year.

danzo

11-02-2002, 05:44 AM

hee-hee-hee, this running debate with egads and others is pretty funny. why? because people are looking at it from the one or other side only. step back. look at the big picture. when you do, you realize that DC is doing good things here, and the flaws in Marvel's policies become clear once again. (so, i'd guess that that makes the peeps on DC's side right on this one) also, the fact that Jim Lee insisted on doing this as part of the on-going title is just plain awesome! that's how you build sales! or at least create the potential to.
but what i really wanted to comment on was this recurring point about the two companies being part of larger companies, and whether or not they're using the resources at their disposal. let's see; Marvel is very, very directly tied to their parent company,dependent on them for capital as the parent is on them for "properties". DC is a rather autonomous company, one of hundreds, under a much larger corporate umbrella. the fate of DC matters almost not at all in AOL/Time-Warner's "big-picture", whereas if Marvel went down, it would probally require a sale of the company to keep from bringing the parent down. hmm, who needs to be using their corporate resources more intelligently here? also, let's clear up a few common myths: first, DC is not and has never been in a position to function as a loss-leader in the marketplace- remember the infamous "DC Implosion" way back when? that wasn't DC's decision, it was Warner's, it should be clear that the AOL/TW will never allow DC or any division to just bleed capital. similar corporate mandated cut-backs and restraints have been placed on DC by it's parents over the years. Second, about Marvel and it's bankruptcy; does anyone seriously believe that that was the result of Marvel's performance in the marketplace? sorry, no. it was the result of a corporate raider looting the then very robust company for every cent he could get. he made hundreds of millions, Marvel got auctioned off. we should all be happy that this great company at least stayed in one piece- it's very plausible that we could now be reading say, Captain America comics from DC, Avengers from Image, X-men from Dark-Horse, or, HORROR!, not be seing these characters at all.
the conclusion? Marvel and DC could both be doing more to expand the field; but Marvel doesn't out of what can only be described as a mean-spirit, and DC doesn't out of a fear of corporate reprisal for failure. DC's current practices at least are positive, Marvel's need improvement. (as demonstrated by some recent revisals of said practices!)

danzo

11-02-2002, 05:51 AM

oh, and the fact that some retailers are selling this current comic at a considerable mark-up is just plain sick- didn't any of these morons learn from the near-death they caused in the 90's? sheesh, some people really never do learn. here's a hint: order smart. plan on keeping some stock for back issue sales from the start, but to treat "current" product as "backstock" is just plain immoral. and the ill-will it causes will return to bite you in the ass. the speculation thing only ever works in the short-term, why the heck do you think 2/3's of the market evaporated? sigh.

newarrior

11-02-2002, 01:08 PM

It's funny how people always get mad at retailers for marking up "hot" books after they're sold out everywhere, no one has them, everyone wants them...

I was offered $100 on the spot for the Death of Superman issue by another customer (I was pre-ordering since I was 12!) because the store I was getting comics from then had already sold out. I declined, wanting the issue instead. The store owner had no problem taking his own copy and selling it to him for $100. The customer was happy to get it. The retailer was happy to sell it to him. Many times prices are determined by the customers. I get people coming in all the time..."Man, I'd pay $5 for blahblah book if you could get it." Well, sometimes I'm able to get the book for a song, making a nice little profit. Other times I pay $5 just to turn around and sell it to him for the same price. Whatever makes the customer happy. If you don't like paying the extra money, either pre-order what you want, or wait for the trade. Or borrow a friends copy.

Retailers are not psychic, but look...when we have 10 people signed up for Batman, and 3 more sign up for this run when Previews come out, we order accordingly. The problem is when 15 people sign up the Monday before it comes out, and another 30 the day it comes out. If people would pre-order their books, at least look through Previews and let us know, then we would know how many to order. I'm concerned about the 13 people actually singed up for the book, not the 649616489 people coming in the day it comes out wanting it. I have one answer to people that miss a book, "Well, did you pre-order it?"

sdn001

11-02-2002, 02:12 PM

Yeah, I have an observation about the demand. On the one hand, I think it's great for Batman in general. I've been a Batfan for a lot of years and am glad to see the book back among the top-sellers, with name talent that will draw the readers in. At the same time, though, I think it's sad that at all the shops I frequent in the NYC area are all sold out, so I have to wait for the second printing -- yet when I look at eBay, I see folks selling copies for over double the cover price. There's even people selling lots of 10, 50 or 100, and people bundling it with other books like DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN. I was too busy to get to the comic shop on Wednesday or Thursday, so I lose out while these leeches bleed people like me.

I see some notes from some retailers who still have copies left, but can't tell where they are. If any are in the NYC area, I'd appreciate knowing...

Studio D Comics

11-02-2002, 04:42 PM

I was talking with some people at a dinner a few weeks before the Batman issue came out. The topic turned to comics, and I mentioned the Jim Lee Batman issue coming out... they got REALLY excited. I wasn't expecting that reaction, because these people arent; comic collectors, but apparently they were casual comic fans who colldected for awhile & stopped. When they heard JL was coming "back" to comics, they were really excited!

I didn't expect that reaction. Very cool!

later
don

mauer

11-02-2002, 08:33 PM

I refuse to buy back issues from retailers that automatically mark up issues. There are two stores somewhat close to where I live. One takes every opportunity to bleed the customer dry while the other is the most customer-friendly I've been to. I recently decided to check out what all the buzz about Fables was about. I went and found the back issues...in the first shop even issue #5 LAST MONTHS issue, was close to twice the cover price. I went to the other store and found ever issue (except #1) for cover price. Guess which store got my sale. It's nice to know that not every store is out to screw the customer.

Daniel Harvey

11-02-2002, 09:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by sdn001:
I was too busy to get to the comic shop on Wednesday or Thursday, so I lose out while these leeches bleed people like me.

I see some notes from some retailers who still have copies left, but can't tell where they are. If any are in the NYC area, I'd appreciate knowing...<hr></blockquote>

I'm not a retailer but the shop I frequent <a href="http://midtowncomics.com/" target="_blank">midtown comics</a> ordered heavily and I suspect they may still have some. Give them a shot. They're hands down the nicest, friendliest shop I've ever seen.

AnthonyL

11-03-2002, 12:01 AM

[quote]So, it looks like not only does Marvel Enterprises NOT deal exclusively with the comics and their own characters, but that non-Marvel Comics characters are helping to boost their profit quite significantly (not helped by the falling sales of Marvel Comics-related merchandise, bizarrely. Looks like the Spider-Man hype didn't help Marvel Comics that much after all...).<hr></blockquote>

Forgive me if this has been brought up but Um..you do realize you are reporting Q3 earnings from 1999...right? Why dont you take a look at the recent Q3 earnings for Marvel Enterprises and re-assess your position on their earnings over the last few quarters.

Anthony L

TTROY

11-03-2002, 02:37 AM

Look at it this way....
you go to your record store...

You wan't the latest N'Backstreet Zepplin CD
but the store say they only odered 25 copies and you have to wait until the greatest Zits come out.. because the company that makes the CD says the store can't order more.

but..... they wiull sell a copyt to you because they put 5 aside but the price will be 40 dollars more because it is a hot CD...

want to know what is killing the industry? making collectables out of "new" product.

A book that just came out should nbever be more than cover price less than a month after it came out...
Ever.

OCM

11-03-2002, 04:47 AM

[quote]Originally posted by AnthonyL:


Forgive me if this has been brought up but Um..you do realize you are reporting Q3 earnings from 1999...right? Why dont you take a look at the recent Q3 earnings for Marvel Enterprises and re-assess your position on their earnings over the last few quarters.

Anthony L<hr></blockquote>

Good thing I decided to read the last two posts before responding to Grim's error.

'Course, maybe he was hoping noone would notice and he could squeek one by...

BTW, how goes it? Still kissing Liefeld's butt? :) Where is that comic of his anyway? What, it didn't make it out? Hmmmm what a surprise.

danzo

11-03-2002, 04:53 AM

[quote]Originally posted by TTROY:
A book that just came out should nbever be more than cover price less than a month after it came out...
Ever.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>Exactly. or like my ol' shop, where you can get the issue from three months ago at cover price, and it will probally still be in stock, more retailers need to do that. too many shops only have current product and at best a limited, usually over-priced back-stock.... there's no justifying jacking up the price on a current release, it's only sold out because it was under-ordered (deliberately) in the first place. there's way too much of the speculator mentality still going on, and not enough of the "hmm, how can i have the best of all possible results with my ordering/sales?" the first part of the answer is giving up this "i gotta sell it now" mentality. i.e. as you order current product, keep an eye towards building your back-stock.

Yodamite

11-03-2002, 05:26 AM

[quote]Originally posted by OCM:
BTW, how goes it? Still kissing Liefeld's butt? :) Where is that comic of his anyway? What, it didn't make it out? Hmmmm what a surprise.<hr></blockquote>Zing!

KidQuantum

11-03-2002, 06:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by BookSpyder:
[QB]... The TPB for the Ultimates and issue 6 both hit the stands at about the same time. I only remember this because I had to go to a comic book store 50 miles away to find a copy selling for cover price... QB]<hr></blockquote>

Spyder, you may be posting from Planet Earth, but I doubt it's anywhere near me. The businessmen in my area have figured out that a little bit of integrity will keep their stores open quite a few years (decades?) longer than the SOBs you seem to be stuck buying your books from.
I honestly can't understand this, the concept of TPBs crippled the back-issue market and put the profitability back in the hands of the publishers. How can a reader justify paying such exhorbitant rates for a single issue knowing that the TPB will be out eventually, and at that point his "investment" will be worth about the same a Mark McGwire home-run ball??

Elayne Riggs

11-03-2002, 11:03 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Daniel Harvey:
I'm not a retailer but the shop I frequent <a href="http://midtowncomics.com/" target="_blank">midtown comics</a> ordered heavily and I suspect they may still have some. Give them a shot. They're hands down the nicest, friendliest shop I've ever seen.<hr></blockquote>

Ditto. I've very rarely encountered a title, particularly from the Big Two, that Midtown couldn't get for me right away (and I'm talking like in under a minute!) if it wasn't on my pull list.

- Elayne

Graeme McMillan

11-03-2002, 11:39 AM

[quote]Originally posted by AnthonyL:


Forgive me if this has been brought up but Um..you do realize you are reporting Q3 earnings from 1999...right? Why dont you take a look at the recent Q3 earnings for Marvel Enterprises and re-assess your position on their earnings over the last few quarters.

Anthony L<hr></blockquote>

Oops. That's what I get for Googling without taking proper precautions. Still, doesn't affect the larger point that Marvel Enterprises is more than just Marvel Comics...

choisez

11-03-2002, 05:19 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Daniel Harvey:


I'm not a retailer but the shop I frequent <a href="http://midtowncomics.com/" target="_blank">midtown comics</a> ordered heavily and I suspect they may still have some. Give them a shot. They're hands down the nicest, friendliest shop I've ever seen.<hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately, they're already selling it for five bucks a pop. Maybe that's why they ordered so heavily on it. :p

-Eddy

BookSpyder

11-04-2002, 02:58 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Kid Quantum:
Spyder, you may be posting from Planet Earth, but I doubt it's anywhere near me. The businessmen in my area have figured out that a little bit of integrity will keep their stores open quite a few years (decades?) longer than the SOBs you seem to be stuck buying your books from.
I honestly can't understand this, the concept of TPBs crippled the back-issue market and put the profitability back in the hands of the publishers. How can a reader justify paying such exhorbitant rates for a single issue knowing that the TPB will be out eventually, and at that point his "investment" will be worth about the same a Mark McGwire home-run ball?? <hr></blockquote>

Lucky Canuck. :D

Actually, my nearest preferred comic-book shop has been around for twenty years. The guy's a battle-tested comic retail soldier. He's come back from everything the market and Mother Nature could throw at him (the only time he was closed for more than two days was when his shop was virtually levelled in an earthquake). In twenty years I've never seen him mark anything up within a month of his receiving it in his shop or take advantage of a walk-in customer.

But the current Marvel policy is hitting him hard. He is always being shorted on his order for the Ultimates, from anywhere between 25% to 50%. He could try to recover his losses by marking up a portion of the copies he does get, but it would be way out of character for him to do so. As a result, I have to go way out of my way to find the next honest dealer, who happens to be about 50 miles away. In between are three comic book stores, all of which mark up their stock of the Ultimates within a week of receiving it. And that's just fine with Marvel, who wants to cultivate the collector/speculator market. But it's making some retailers who don't have the clout of Marvel's biggest accounts do some things they would otherwise not do. One former retailer in my area told me he would rather close his doors than to gouge his regular customers with marked-up books. He went out of business three months ago.

Yeah, it is kind of a drag that I can't fully support my local comic-book store, and it's a drag that I have to go out of my way to get what amounts to be a single comic book at cover price within a week of its release. But I'd rather do that than to validate the new Marvel business model that says it's okay to screw your customers because they'll assume that all is forgiven when the hardback/TPB/Marvel Must Haves comes out. I didn't play that game with Origin, and I won't be playing that game with The Truth. I'm glad he's sold out his full order of Batman and Global Frequency at cover price, and can order more if he needs to. I'm just dismayed that the distance between honest, ethical retailers is 50 miles in my case.

Peace,
BookSpyder
-Got the new Ultimates, pub-style fish and chips, a Blue Note record cover book and RAM for my computer in the same trip. Gotta make those miles count.....

Academic

11-04-2002, 11:23 AM

[quote]Originally posted by danzo:
too many shops only have current product and at best a limited, usually over-priced back-stock.... there's no justifying jacking up the price on a current release, it's only sold out because it was under-ordered (deliberately) in the first place... as you order current product, keep an eye towards building your back-stock.<hr></blockquote>

Yet another example of the on-line comic fan not understanding fully the challenges of being a retailer.

First: retailers don't pick order numbers out of the air. Most retailers order based on a combination of pre-orders, previous sales, hype and expected increases or decreases based on what they're hearing from customers. If I'm a retailer who sells, say, 10 copies of Batman on pre-orders and routinely 4-5 copies from the shelf, I'm going to order (on average) 18-20 copies to have that level of insurance on a book.

Second: retailers can increase orders up to a month before the book is scheduled hits shelves -- at every publisher including Marvel. Diamond informs the retailers whether the reorder is good (that is, there's a copy able to be alotted for them) or whether it's on back order (waiting for additional copies to be made available). Allocations occur when the *PUBLISHER* makes a book available in less quantity than promised, and so far (according to my retailer) the only company to do THAT in the recent year is Dreamwave and their special issues.

Third: copies sitting on the shelf or in the bin make no money until they're sold. This is the biggest misconception the online fan community seems to have, especially in recent years. If a store has 10 copies of a book that doesn't sell, that's 10 copies of a book that they're not recouping their investment back on.

Now, granted, every store should have a decent back issue stock in them, made up of not just high priced issues. The high value ones show off the pay-off on some investments possible, but not every issue goes up 5000%.

But the retailer has things like rent, salaries, utilities, other suppliers, and so on to pay as well as the comic supplier. He or she often cannot afford to order 2-3 copies of every book on the shelf to keep as back stock for sale a year or so later. If a book sells out, it sells out.

Bottom line: retailers do their best to guess the best order for their store. If they over or underestimate demand, it's their fault -- not the publishers.

The ONLY difference here is that Marvel has chosen not to keep extra copies on hand to fill POSSIBLE requests for more like DC does. They don't want the hassle of discounting old product and trying to move it months later like DC does. (In fact, there are suppliers out there still hawking Marvel books from the early nineties for just pennies per issue -- I've seen the lists.)

Before, when a hot book sold out, the companies just printed more. Now, Marvel says they'll make a reprint that's distinctly different and comes with more -- DC's doing that too with its new double-issue forms. It's still a reprint, it's just a reprint that's clearly different from the original so that the back issue market isn't hurt.

And why care? Buzz on books that people can't get is what's driving stores to order more, and that's more sales for the publishers who want to pay off the printing costs early.

DC cares about the back issue market. They're hyping Y-THE LAST MAN, FABLES, BATMAN.. all issues that have sold out, not HUNTER and HAWKMAN which are just doing fine (or worse than fine, in the case of HUNTER).

Marvel's making the story available online, in trade paperback, in reprint (for hot books)... it's not like the reader who just wants to read the story can't get a hold of the story. DC, on the other hand, only reprints important Batman, Superman, JLA and JSA stories it seems -- and then, only when it feels it should.

If your retailer can't get enough copies, then they need to increase their order. If they have and still can't get enough copies, then they have to complain to Diamond Comics about the missing copies which they are due according to the order receipts and invoices they have.

If your retailer is jacking up hot books within days of them being hot, they're jackasses who should be hurt by people not returning. It's bad business -- especially if they don't explain you can avoid it in future by preordering copies of a hot book.

Academic

11-04-2002, 11:32 AM

[quote]Originally posted by BookSpyder:

One former retailer in my area told me he would rather close his doors than to gouge his regular customers with marked-up books. He went out of business three months ago.
<hr></blockquote>

Was it just the Marvel policy that made him go out of business, or was it more? (I'm talking about things like rent going up, increased cost of utilities, increased competition, and so on.)

In the two decades I've lived here in my hometown, I've seen six stores close up shop. All of the retailers were nice and didn't want to gouge the customers. But one couldn't face up to the competition better armed with anime, models, and a clean store. Two more went bankrupt because the rent was too high and they had too much backstock that just wasn't selling. Another closed because the mall they were in decided it didn't want a comic shop any more. Another went far more into cards, and ended up getting killed by another, better stocked card shop. And the last closed because they were in a location with no traffic nearby and no advertising to the traffic they wanted. The one I'm going to now has a problem because trade paperbacks are routinely cheaper at the big bookstore chain down the block (20% for card holders, plus an additional 10% off for pre-orders.)

Most of the guys who worked at these shops were extremely nice and really loved their customers. The market for comics, unfortunately, isn't big enough to make comics as much a single staple store as they used to be.

Academic

11-04-2002, 11:36 AM

[quote]Originally posted by newarrior:
If people would pre-order their books, at least look through Previews and let us know, then we would know how many to order.<hr></blockquote>

The place I help out from time to time e-mails everyone and tells them what's hyped in the new Previews when it comes out. That gives all of the people on its e-mailing list to know what can now be pre-ordered.

[quote]Originally posted by newarrior:
I'm concerned about the 13 people actually singed up for the book, not the 649616489 people coming in the day it comes out wanting it. I have one answer to people that miss a book, "Well, did you pre-order it?"<hr></blockquote>

And that's the bottom line, folks. Nobody can predict the walk-up demand of a product. Nobody. And if you decide suddenly that you want a product, then you have to hope it's available just like everyone else.

Academic

11-04-2002, 12:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:

This argument always cracks me up. Do you think AOL/TW just GIVES money to DC to burn? Each and every division of the company has a budget and a P&L that they must adhere to. If DC is losing lots and lots of money, their corporate parent just doesn't give them more. While it is true that they can take advantage of their corporate ties to share resources (space, technology, etc.), that's about it.
<hr></blockquote>

Not quite true.

Yes, DC has an operating budget that they must adhere too. BUT, in the 31 years since Warner's bought DC, DC hasn't turned a profit once. (The closest it came was the year Superman died.)

Warner's plan for DC was 1/3 comic revenue, 1/3 licensing deals and 1/3 from products in other divisions that were based on DC characters. That never happened.

DC's saving grace is that it doesn't lose TOO much money. If they lose, say, half a million dollars each year or thereabouts, it's enough of a loss for AOL to offset record profits from a new Madonna album (at WEA) or a new blockbuster film (at Warner films).

Marvel doesn't have these profitable divisions. Marvel Enterprises is really three companies: Marvel Comics, Marvel Films (which licenses Marvel characters to other studios) and Toy Biz. Toy Biz is the only component of Marvel NOT solely dependent on the Marvel stable of characters -- they're a major part, but not the only one. But that portion of the overall company is really small, and Marvel Enterprises -- as a stock offering -- is very much tied to the success or failure of its publishing division.

The bankruptcy may have been part of a stock fight, but there were operating losses on the publishing division (plus more on the card and sticker divisions). If Marvel Comics wasn't making a profit, they couldn't pay the debt which was saddling the company.

It's a valid difference between the companies to note, especially since DC nowhere near the showcase of AOL-Time-Warner that it used to be (right now it's AOL's financial problems and Warner Bros.' impending triple bill of Harry Potter/LotR/Matrix that people are looking for).

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:

Furthermore, NOT every business works that way 'every stinkin' day'. An example close to home is when comics were primarily on the newsstand, they were returnable, like all magazines are. And with record or book stores, if they run out of a record or book, they can always order more. Unlike, say, a comic store ordering Marvel comics.
<hr></blockquote>

Not quite, either.

First, comics got out of newsstands as a primary market because they were losing too much money. Stores were sending back covers and still selling the copies for their own profit. That wasn't a lot of profit either, which is why the newsstand has basically died out in favour of the magazine rack full of general entertainment magazines.

Second, record stores don't always have every product available. Most artists don't have their entire back catalogue readily available -- just the ones with back catalogues in high demand. Even then, the record company doesn't go and make a new pressing of just one of those albums when it sells out; it usually waits until there's a new hot product or they're redoing the series again. Case in point: George Harrison, whose back catalogue went out of print in the early nineties and isn't available right now other than a few excess copies that were in some warehouses of the first two or three albums.

Same goes for bookstores, actually. Many books go out of print, except for those by authors in high demand. Try getting some older non-fiction work (like SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT) and see what happens.

danzo

11-05-2002, 05:44 AM

[quote]Yes, DC has an operating budget that they must adhere too. BUT, in the 31 years since Warner's bought DC, DC hasn't turned a profit once. (The closest it came was the year Superman died.)
<hr></blockquote>wow, i've never heard that one before- where are you getting that one from?
as for my not understanding what a retailer faces when ordering, um, phooey. i understand quite well; you're not the only one to "help-out" in a comics shop, y'know. here in Milwaukee we have a really great shop called the Turning Page, run by Ron Killian, and while the shop is maybe overly cluttered and takes a bit of familiarity to navigate, the man's been in business for nearly 30 years. Why? because he pays attention to his customers AND the business itself- but only reads a few select titles himself. yet you can find most anything you want there.(this includes books, toys, manga, videos, collectibles, you name it) if he doesn't have it, he'll get it if he can, and he won't gouge you on the price. ever. tell him that you're interested in something up-coming, it's ordered- and extras too, because if you want it, others probally will too. if it sits in back-stock too long, he liquidates, or sells/trades with other shop owners so they both get what they want. the bottom line here is the effort he puts in. now, he doesn't order everything in over-stock quantities, just the stuff that makes sense- the rest gets only a reasonable hedge. and he doesn't fail to order things just because he personally doesn't care for it as so many other shop-owners do. And, as near as i can tell he's never looked at unsold product as a "loss of return on investment", he sees it as a potential hook for the customer who couldn't find it elsewhere. he used to rent his space, now he owns the building. must be doing something right.
A compliment ('tho completely unrelated to Ron's shop) is a small three-store chain here- "Collector's Edge" the stores carry considerably less stock- but it's very well-chosen and well-ordered, and the stores are much neater, cleaner, and more "modern", outside of that, the business practices are very much like Ron's, and they've been around for about 20 years, and are growing!
Now, Milwaukee has a number of other shops as well, some i've never even ventured into, and we've seen dozens come and go, and many of these are/have been the kind of shop i see all too often; if they don't know you, they treat you like a "mark" and will attempt to screw you any way they can, selection is usually only what they think they can sell quickly, and only what the owner thinks is "worthwhile"- and they tend to have (thankfully!)short life-spans. the point here is that it's their own greed/callousness/stupidity that does them in; a great example of reaping what has been sown. this is the type of shop i've seen in city after city, across the country, and these are the retailers that we all hear whining about how rotten the business is. the stuff about rent/payroll/whatever is really somewhat irrelevant; it's a question of sound business practices- you have to spend money to make money, and you have to pay attention to ALL the pieces of the puzzle. ('tho i'll admit, i've seen a few perfectly nice retailers bite the dust as well-i've been a fan for 30 years now- but it's usually still a question of naivety and unrealistic business practices)
so, again i say, there is no justification for under-ordering. or price-gouging. or catering to speculators at the expense of your "bread-and-butter" if a retailer can't do a reasonable job of predicting demand, that retailer isn't paying attention- you can't simply look at last month's figures, a bit of thought is required as well. and a bit of faith.