MARVEL ADDS NEW EDITOR/TALENT RECRUITER [Archive]

MattBrady

02-13-2003, 12:18 PM

Press Release

<blockquote>Stepping up their continuing commitment to expanding comics' creative talent pool, Marvel Comics has hired Teresa Focarile as their newest Associate Editor. Focarile's chief responsibility will be recruiting new writers from the film, television, and theater communities to work on Marvel properties alongside new and established comics professionals.

Focarile comes to Marvel following years in the literary department at The Gersh Agency in New York, one of the industry's top entertainment agencies, where she worked with and represented up-and-coming writers, composers and lyricists. Focarile has also worked in the literary offices of Helen Merrill Ltd. and The Public Theater/NYSF and for The Goodman Theatre's 'Arts in Education' department.

According to the new editor, the early response to her recruiting efforts has been tremendous.

"Almost every person I talk to, whether an agent, manager or writer, thinks this new focus is a great idea and is really excited about the opportunity," said Focarile. "It's incredible how many of them are longtime Marvel Comics fans. I've already gotten a flood of submissions."

"We're very pleased that Teresa has joined our growing editorial ranks," said Marvel President & COO Bill Jemas. "She brings with her a wealth of experience working with talented writers from diverse artistic fields. Her hiring is a very important part in an overall aggressive Marvel initiative to bring new creative voices into the comic book community."</blockquote>

Elayne Riggs

02-13-2003, 12:31 PM

Woo-hoo, another woman in comics! Congrats to Teresa, I look forward to seeing who she brings in.

- Elayne

QCCBob

02-13-2003, 01:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
According to the new editor, the early response to her recruiting efforts has been tremendous.<hr /></blockquote>And why wouldn't it be?

Look at the track record so far. You can basically have a part time job that you can do whenever you feel like it as long as you can get Marvel a little press. Do the first issue like DD the Target and never worry about finishing the series or get a producing gig on Showtime and screw over two comic companies, retailers, and fans. Gee, thanks! We need more writers like Zimmerman and the part-timers who are just here until they have something better to do like we need a hole in the head. Now, if she can get someone like Brad Meltzer who comes in and does the job he's supposed to, I'm all for it. Sadly, I doubt that's what is going to happen.

The problem with Marvel ain't gonna get solved by bringing in more people who don't know what they are doing, Mr. J and Joe Q have that spot sewed up tight. They need someone who knows how to do good comic books on time. Isn't the problem pretty obvious when they hire a talent scout/casting director type as an 'editor'?

Big Wullie

02-13-2003, 02:23 PM

"And why wouldn't it be? ... "

See, now you've got me thinking, QCCBob - could you be any MORE of a fookhead than you seem to be?

Just wondering.

Steve Austin

02-13-2003, 02:50 PM

"could you be any MORE of a fookhead"

*sniff* *sniff* what is that smell? Oh its puberty...

Grow up, he made a valid point. I mean I just loved the ending to the Spider-Man/Black Cat series... oh wait... that's right, there wasn't one.

Face it, while the idea of getting people outside of comics into comics sounds like a great idea, they add a fresh perspective, and create scripts that are easily translated into screen plays (thus bypassing Avi Arad) the talent opted places comics low on their list of priorities, and who can blame them.

4 figure comic book gig vs 6 figure movie gig

Its really a no brainer, and while I agree that comic book writers are good at writing comic book stories, that's about all they are good at. Because most of the talent in comics nowadays grew up with them, they have fallen into the nitch of writing comic book style stories and don't really venture outside of the norm. And when they do venture outside of the norm, like From Hell and Road to Perdition they get optioned, because they are good stories... granted do you ever hear the words "oscar", "Tom Hanks" and "comic book" mentioned in the same sentence? For some reason these movies never get their comic props... Bulletproof Monk is a comic book adaptation I believe as well, so was BATTLE ROYALE was an adaptation and it was one of the highest grossing movies in Japan.

I don't know if getting credible writers into comics is as good idea as getting comic writers to write credible stories. Here is a list of the most over used ideas in comic and fantasy/action/sci-fi television:

1. Evil Twins
2. Gladiators (Angel, ST: Voyager, and another show all used this premise during the same season)
3. Human Prey
4. Bastard children that are stolen and return at an older age or mysteriously appear.
5. Evil siblings
6. Body switching (so sick of this, and try to name one show or comic in these realms that hasn't used this idea)

IanZL

02-13-2003, 03:08 PM

Sounds like a good idea. Get some names on some books that more people will recognize, not a bad idea. And seeing them going ot theatre people, that could be very interesting.

However, I was reading Stan Lee's biography and he said that there was a guy who worked for one of Martin Goodman's (Martin Goodman was the publisher of Marvel) "real" magazines. Anyway this guy came to Stan one day asking for a gig so he could earn a few extra bucks. Stan said sure and threw him an assignment. After a bit of time that guy came back to Stan and said "Stan, i can't do this, I just can't figure out how to make this work. I can't think of a good story". Stan of course said it was no problem and they parted amicably. After a while that guy ended up quiting the magazine business and went and wrote the GODFATHER. I assume you people see the moral here.

Dealings with Kevin Smith involved a mistake, get over it you little pricks, its not the end of the world.

Big Wullie

02-13-2003, 03:32 PM

"Face it." Face what? Some undeniable fact as stated by you? Your opinion is just like everyone else here's buddy - meaningless (mine's included). Nothing to face unless you meant your ego, which I do belive I can see shining dully from over here.

The guy's post was rabidly anti-Marvel, not unlike the bulk of posters here. I accept that I'm in the minority of people who are tired of hearing nothing but a negative slant slathered thickly over every Marvel release, but I can say what I want, just as you can.

Oh, wait ... THAT's an undeniable fact. Face it.

amorphis

02-13-2003, 04:06 PM

Has any company approached M. Night Shyamalan to write something? I'm sure he would jump at the opportunity to play with Marvel or DC characters.

MattBrady

02-13-2003, 04:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scorpysue:
Has any company approached M. Night Shyamalan to write something? I'm sure he would jump at the opportunity to play with Marvel or DC characters.<hr /></blockquote>I believe Quesada said he has tried or was trying some time ago, around Unbreakable, but he was quite busy with movies.

MattB

Kirk

02-13-2003, 04:14 PM

My problem with this is that a lot of good writers will not get a chance to tell their stories, and that is a shame. It is okay to use and existing talent pool, but what about helping new talent? It works for artists, and it would work for writers if the talent is cultivated.

My first post here, by the way.
:confused:

amorphis

02-13-2003, 04:16 PM

I wouldn't blame Kevin Smith for his tardiness as much as I would like to fire any editor who actually believes he could get a book out on time. Poor editorial decisions have plagued Marvel even more than lateness. I don't claim to know what it takes to be an editor, but any idiot would know by now not to solicit books by late creative teams until a few issues are in the drawer. DC made Jim Lee finish 6 issues before they even solicited! They knew not to trust his late ass! The first issue of DD:TARGET should have been released this month, with another issue soon to follow. Hopefully other new comic writers will have editors that plan ahead and keep thing on schedule.

Dave Phelps

02-13-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Steve Austin:

Face it, while the idea of getting people outside of comics into comics sounds like a great idea, they add a fresh perspective,

Cause, y'know, Hollywood is SUCH the beacon of originality... :-) Still, I disagree that outside writers inherently have any "fresher" ideas than anyone currently in the industry. Heck, I love Geoff Johns' work, but it's very much in the vein of 80s Marvel comics.

and create scripts that are easily translated into screen plays

Oh, they'll be changed anyway... :-) And for that matter, they SHOULD be. Despite some similarities, movies and comics are two very different things. Trying to have one act like the other just weakens it.

the talent opted places comics low on their list of priorities, and who can blame them.

4 figure comic book gig vs 6 figure movie gig

Naturally, but that's where "professionalism" comes into play... :-/

while I agree that comic book writers are good at writing comic book stories, that's about all they are good at.

Hard to say how good anyone would be at anything if they haven't done it. :-) But hey, when I'm reading a comic, I really don't care how good they are at writing novels as long as the comic is good (just as when I pick up a novel, I don't judge it based on how well they would write a comic).

Because most of the talent in comics nowadays grew up with them, they have fallen into the nitch of writing comic book style stories and don't really venture outside of the norm.

Given that they mentioned in the press release that many of the prospective writers had "grown up on comics," they might have the same problem. :-)

And when they do venture outside of the norm, like From Hell and Road to Perdition they get optioned, because they are good stories... granted do you ever hear the words "oscar", "Tom Hanks" and "comic book" mentioned in the same sentence?

That's because, to the outside world, comics = "superheroes" and/or "kids stuff." Anyway, the Spider-Man movie took Amazing Fantasy #15, ASM #40 and ASM #121-122, mixed and matched, and turned it into a movie. The Daredevil movie appears to be a condensed version of DD #164 and 168-181. All of those were written by "comic book writers."

I don't know if getting credible writers into comics is as good idea as getting comic writers to write credible stories.

What's a "credible" story? If we're talking about an action/adventure genre (or any other genre), then there's going to be some predictable elements involved, just due to the nature of the beast. It's what writers DO with the cliched bits that make for interesting stories.

Dave

BaaadTrip

02-13-2003, 05:44 PM

Hollywood writers...?

Hey, it worked for the WWE. Right?

Oh, guess not. Nevermind. :confused:

Nifty Boy

02-13-2003, 05:45 PM

I'd just like to point out that Marvel is one of the few major publishers that still accepts submissions from joe schmoe like you and me. plus:

a)I really don't think that because someone who doesn't write comics automatically has a fresh perspective. If anything I think you'd probably see a different perspective from someone who's been reading comics forever and wants to break the mold in order to stand out before you saw one from an established author.

b)How can you say that comic book writers are only good at writing comic books? Thats pretty insulting coming from someone who obviously doesn't know the first thing about writing comics. I don't see your name on the cover of Spider-man.

MaxPower

02-13-2003, 06:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by IanZL:
Sounds like a good idea. Get some names on some books that more people will recognize, not a bad idea. And seeing them going ot theatre people, that could be very interesting.

However, I was reading Stan Lee's biography and he said that there was a guy who worked for one of Martin Goodman's (Martin Goodman was the publisher of Marvel) "real" magazines. Anyway this guy came to Stan one day asking for a gig so he could earn a few extra bucks. Stan said sure and threw him an assignment. After a bit of time that guy came back to Stan and said "Stan, i can't do this, I just can't figure out how to make this work. I can't think of a good story". Stan of course said it was no problem and they parted amicably. After a while that guy ended up quiting the magazine business and went and wrote the GODFATHER. I assume you people see the moral here.

Dealings with Kevin Smith involved a mistake, get over it you little pricks, its not the end of the world.<hr /></blockquote>Now remember, as a small postscript to Stan's anecdote: Mario Puzo, who wrote the Godfather, later wrote the Superman movie. :)

Kerouac

02-13-2003, 07:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'd just like to point out that Marvel is one of the few major publishers that still accepts submissions from joe schmoe like you and me. <hr /></blockquote>??? I was under the impression that Marvel did NOT take submissions. Or, at the very least, unsolicited ones, which is what I think of when I think of submissions from "Joe Schmoe."

Matt

QCCBob

02-13-2003, 07:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Wullie:
The guy's post was rabidly anti-Marvel<hr /></blockquote>Who, ME? :p
You know, if the whole getting outside writers thing actually worked at Marvel, I'd be tickled. Really, I sell the books for a living. Let's look at their track record and then see if there aren't grounds for my statement that have nothing to do with being 'anti-Marvel' and actually being anti-repeating past mistakes.

Nah, waste of time, zombies don't rationalize, they just cry a lot. I said it, explained it, and if you aren't bright enough to follow the logic, it really isn't my problem.

You aren't a Canadian, are you? It seems I have this same problem with a lot of them...

QCCBob

02-13-2003, 07:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kerouac:
I was under the impression that Marvel did NOT take submissions. Or, at the very least, unsolicited ones, which is what I think of when I think of submissions from "Joe Schmoe."

Matt<hr /></blockquote>Yes, they do. It's one of the few good things they do, although I'm sure it's simply motivated by the fact that they can pay rookies less money and help out their bottom line that way.

Rabidly anti-Marvel, HAH! See, I said they did a good thing! :D

Hdefined

02-13-2003, 07:42 PM

They don't need editors to grab new talent, they need editors who will put more of an emphasis on COMMITTMENT and TIMELINESS. What good is a hot writer if they don't get around to producing anything?

Scott Wherle

02-13-2003, 10:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nifty Boy:
I'd just like to point out that Marvel is one of the few major publishers that still accepts submissions from joe schmoe like you and me.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm, I seem to remember a press release stating that quite a while back, but I don't recall seeing any "Joe Schmoe's" names on the cover of a Marvel book recently. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The only writer I can think of off the top of my head is Zeb Wells, but I also read that he was asked to submit stories by a Marvel editor based on his winning of Wizard's video contest. Though, it was a good find, because his Peter Parker Spider-Man stuff has been a joy to read.

comicsareliterature

02-13-2003, 10:57 PM

Hello.

Since Canadians are the only ones able to show QCCBOB how to think intelligently... :p

Hey, Bob, Marvel has 3 "film" writers in the stable, so to speak.

Mr. Zimmerman.
Mr. Smith.
Mr. Straszynski.

Zimmerman is not the best writer around, but does produce (unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your stance). Smith is a good writer, but is undeniably part-time. Straszynski is consistently on-time and writes great stories. It seems that this shows "film" writers are not all the horrible part-time flops that QCCBOB wants to paint them as. One of them has Amazing Spiderman in the top 10 on a regular (monthly) basis. That means that 33% of the "film" writers that Marvel "recruited" hit the top 10 consistently. I think that more than favourably compares with regular "comic" writers.

Actually, if you look at the track record of "comic" writers who regularly score a top 10 hit compared with the number of "comic" writers that exist, then Marvel is using a pretty good plan because the "comic" writers consistently in the top 10 are far less than 33% when you compare the top "comic" writers to the total number of "comic" writers out there.

Of course, QCCBOB is oh-so right to stand on his soap box and complain, again, about a Marvel initiative to try and improve it's stable of talent and reach a broader audience. If QCCBOB had his druthers, Marvel would be bankrupt again by following the same old practices that landed them in bankruptcy not so long ago... :rolleyes:

Taylor Porter

02-13-2003, 10:59 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
 Hey, Bob, Marvel has 3 "film" writers in the stable, so to speak.

Mr. Zimmerman.
Mr. Smith.
Mr. Straszynski.
<hr /></blockquote>Didn't Geoff Johns come from Hollywood?

DCD

02-13-2003, 11:13 PM

First, congrats to Ms Focarile. I hope it all works out for you and Marvel.

My question is if it's Teresa's job to bring in the talent, who's job is it to make sure they produce? This is the person who's gonna find more gray hairs on their head every morning. :D

DCD

02-13-2003, 11:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nifty Boy:
...I really don't think that because someone who doesn't write comics automatically has a fresh perspective...<hr /></blockquote>Good point! But, they probably will have a different perspective. And I believe a different perspective can be a good thing... or, as in Mario Puzo's case, not too good!

Raphael

02-14-2003, 12:04 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
Hello.

Zimmerman is not the best writer around, but does produce (unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your stance). Smith is a good writer, but is undeniably part-time. Straszynski is consistently on-time and writes great stories. It seems that this shows "film" writers are not all the horrible part-time flops that QCCBOB wants to paint them as. One of them has Amazing Spiderman in the top 10 on a regular (monthly) basis. That means that 33% of the "film" writers that Marvel "recruited" hit the top 10 consistently. I think that more than favourably compares with regular "comic" writers.
<hr /></blockquote>[/QUOTE]Straszynski is consistently on-time [/QUOTE]

You must be talking about another J. Michael Straszynski. Amazing Spider-Man is four months behind Peter Parker and both books began at the same time. Midnight Nation did not come out monthly either. And Rising Stars is also behind schedule, by many months.

Zimmerman is very late with Ultimate Adventures. (And why take on another book [Rawhide Kid] when you're already late on another book?)

Kevin Smith? Well, nuff said.

I hope you're not teaching math to those kids.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
If QCCBOB had his druthers, Marvel would be bankrupt again by following the same old practices that landed them in bankruptcy not so long ago... <hr /></blockquote>And like him, I'd be cheering, too. (But not for another bankruptcy.) It's just that the sooner a new captain and first mate board the good ship MARVEL, the better.

rtype

02-14-2003, 12:30 AM

What I don't get is this... Let's say you've got someone like Kevin Smith who undeniably can sell a lot of books whether you like his writing or not... but you can't be sure when he can finish. Why not just not announce, market or solicit his book until the complete mini-series is done? Is Marvel so strapped for cash that they can't afford to do that?

Kerouac

02-14-2003, 12:41 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What I don't get is this... Let's say you've got someone like Kevin Smith who undeniably can sell a lot of books whether you like his writing or not... but you can't be sure when he can finish. Why not just not announce, market or solicit his book until the complete mini-series is done? <hr /></blockquote>Yep, that sure is a good question. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

I have no answer for you whatsoever. I've wondered the same thing myself, particularly in light of the fact that I have people coming into my store that think I'm a liar because I tell them that Spider-Man/Black Cat #4 still hasn't shipped and that the only DD/Bullseye issue to ship was #1 (they think I sold out of the book and am covering up for not pulling their copy).

To prove that I'm not "rabidly anti-Marvel," I had this same question in regards to Dark Knight Strikes Again, particularly in light of the fact that I seem to recall hearing DC say that they WERE going to solicit the book only when it was ready to ship on time.

I spent about four years out of the loop as far as the comics industry is concerned and came back in early 2000. It's nice to see that nothing ever changes, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Matt

DCD

02-14-2003, 12:41 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rtype:
What I don't get is this... Let's say you've got someone like Kevin Smith who undeniably can sell a lot of books whether you like his writing or not... but you can't be sure when he can finish. Why not just not announce, market or solicit his book until the complete mini-series is done? Is Marvel so strapped for cash that they can't afford to do that?<hr /></blockquote>Well said!

amorphis

02-14-2003, 01:54 AM

Another thing I've been wondering concerning late artists--How the hell do they pay their bills? Frank Quitely averages about 4 books a year. Unless he's got a rich wife, or is getting 3 or 4 hundred bucks a page, How does he support himself? That reminds me--Does anyone really believe his name is Frank Quitely, because Quite Frankly, I don't.

Patrick Sauriol

02-14-2003, 02:58 AM

Hi there everyone. First time poster, long time lurker. I've been reading the discussion and wanted to throw in my 2 cents just for the fun of it, and maybe to offer my take on what my experiences have been trying to break in as a would-be Marvel comic book writer.

To give you an idea of what my past writing experience has been, I've been submitting pitches to various comic book companies for the past 12 years. As most of the pros will tell you, the best way to get your first work published is by self-publishing it. To that end me and a partner self-published our own anthology comic book back in the mid-90s. Along with recruiting some pros (Mike Dringenberg, William Gibson) and up-and-coming talent to showcase their work, I was able to publish two of my own original stories. We got out six issues before the marketplace killed us. Again, it was the mid-90s so it was a rough market. But a couple of years later I was asked by a friend to write a sci-fi series for Caliber Comics called "Technopolis", which was a lot of fun.

When things got really bad for the industry (around '97 or so), I gave up submitting pitches and going to cons to meet n' greet the editors. But in a strange twist of fate, the Internet started taking off and the movie website that I created (Corona's Coming Attractions) brought me to the attention of Doug Goldstein at Wizard. I was able to get a couple of writing assigments previewing upcoming movies, and about six months later I was asked if I wouldn't mind taking over Wizard's monthly TV/movie write-up.

The only reason I'm providing this backstory is to give you an idea that I have some familiarity with the comic book business and a smattering of contacts so I can tell you this: trying to find a writing gig for comics is perhaps one of the most difficult jobs I've ever faced. Because of my contacts running Coming Attractions, it was easier to pitch to the producer of THE FLASH movie than being able to pitch to a DC Comics editor. I think a lot of that is due to the extremely rough time the industry has faced these past 10 years; there are pros who were/are fighting tooth and nail to earn a paycheck and pay mortgages and have enough to send their kids to college, all the while the marketshare of readers has been collapsing.

For every two or three positive conversation that I've had with an editor in regards to pitching, there's been one instance where I've felt belittled, lied to or outright insulted by another editor. On one occasion I remember actually being laughed at by one well-known editor for trying to break in as a new comics writer. On another occasion I had a different editor actually ignore me and walk right by, even though not an hour before the same guy told me to show up to the booth and pitch to him at that exact time. He was going to lunch just as I showed up.

While I've had my share of shitty stories (and which writer hasn't?), I can honestly sympathize with the lot the editors are in. It's a helluva lot easier to look at an artist and judge if they've got the skills to turn pro, but it demands more time and energy to see if an amateur writer has what it takes to write Wolverine, Green Lantern, Grendel or whatever that title is. A few years ago Diana Shultz, the senior editor at Dark Horse, gave me some honest advice. She had assessed a proposal I had submitted for a "Grendel Tales" mini-series and she had liked it enough to tell me the God's honest truth: that Dark Horse couldn't afford to take a six-issue chance on an unknown writer. It stung like hell but at least it was the truth.

When I read today's press announcement about Marvel looking to the worlds of film, TV and prose to find their next great comic book writers, I can't help but think of what Diana told me. I think on the whole Marvel's done some great things in the past 2 years, and they've tried new and controversial approaches with the mutant universe, with the X-Men, with their basic superhero line-ups. But what it all comes down to is that Marvel, like any other publisher, needs to sell books, and let's face facts: if there were a new "Man-Thing" series solicited in Previews, the interest level would be a lot higher if M. Night Shyamalan's name was listed as the writer instead of it being Patrick Sauriol. As depressing as that cold fact can be to all the up-and-coming writers out there who have the next great "Dark Phoenix" or "Born Again" storylines socked away in their brains, screaming to be let out into the world, it remains a fact. Bendis started writing for Marvel *after* he did his own stuff, which attracted the attention of Hollywood and McFarlane. Geoff Johns, as cool as a guy as friends say he is, was lucky enough to be working in the offices of Donner on the Warner Bros. lot. Gail Simone, god bless and protect her typing fingers forever, got noticed from her online column. I can't think of one recent writer who's broken in from pitching at a con or through the slush pile. For 99% of aspiring writers out there who can't afford to self-publish, work in Hollywood or don't have some other leg up except that they can tell a story, it simply isn't good enough to get them the break they need these days.

Sure, it's good for the industry that comics try and reach out to hook the interest of the mainstream audience, but I'm also starting to wonder if the doors of opportunity are swinging shut once and for all for the next Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison or Mark Waid. If Jim Shooter were a 13-year-old kid today, and if he had the idea for the next great Legion of Superheroes story, he wouldn't stand a chance of selling it. DC no longer accepts unsolicited pitches.

Slangword

02-14-2003, 05:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scorpysue:
Another thing I've been wondering concerning late artists--How the hell do they pay their bills? Frank Quitely averages about 4 books a year. Unless he's got a rich wife, or is getting 3 or 4 hundred bucks a page, How does he support himself? That reminds me--Does anyone really believe his name is Frank Quitely, because Quite Frankly, I don't.<hr /></blockquote>"Frank Quitely" is indeed a pseudonym. I think his real name is Vince something.

--Scott

Big Wullie

02-14-2003, 08:38 AM

Canadian, you say? Nope, I'm not. Perhaps the fact you have problems with them, however, speaks more about you than your ignorance does. The manner of your post was, indeed, snidely anti-marvel, don't try bullshitting your way around it. Your tone is no different than dozens of others who vomit the same invective as soon as Marvel news is published. I don't like for one minute that Smith, Quitely, Hitch, et al can't deliver the goods on time. They produce some of my favourite comics, so I'm naturally peeved. Is it Q & J's faults for not cracking down? I'm no fly on the wall at Marvel, so I don't have any idea. All I know is that it's annoying. However, it doesn't make any sense to react biliously to every piece of news Marvel puts out. And I'm generalizing here, "bob". I'm just putting you in with a bad lot because you've compartmentalized yourself with your impotent rage. As far as your logic goes, I assume you're speaking from the retailer perspective. Well, there are retailers and there are retailers ...

You have a standout day, old buddy.

MattBrady

02-14-2003, 08:58 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Patrick Sauriol:
but I'm also starting to wonder if the doors of opportunity are swinging shut once and for all for the next Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison or Mark Waid.<hr /></blockquote>Kinda tricky to compare these three, as all three were more than just "fans" when they began writing for mainstream publishers. Gaiman has a journalism background with a book credit or two, Morrison had numerous comic credits in the UK, and Waid was an editor at DC.

Even by today's tighter standards, people with the respective backgrounds of Gaiman and Morrison would probably be able to get in (Andy Diggle, for example...), while former editors usually have good networks of contacts.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Patrick Sauriol:
If Jim Shooter were a 13-year-old kid today, and if he had the idea for the next great Legion of Superheroes story, he wouldn't stand a chance of selling it. DC no longer accepts unsolicited pitches.<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps a more apt comparision, if only for DC. But again, as above, many, if not all of the creators coming in to Marvel and DC have other writing credits prior to comics, either in other media or smaller press titles/projects.

I can't really think of (aside from talent searches) that last time a "pure" fan got a pitch accepted, developed and published. Probably the only one that comes to mind is Haven, but I'm sure if the writers had prior credits before pitching.

MattB

StevenG

02-14-2003, 11:20 AM

Elayne Riggs

02-14-2003, 01:36 PM

Christ on a stick with a side of butter, I can't believe you guys sometimes. I should have known better than to believe this move would elicit guarded excitement and praise rather than automatic condemnation before Teresa even settles in. No wonder so many pros look at these boards and think the posters are a bunch of whiners who hate comics.

If y'all aren't prepared to say it, I am. This idea of bringing in new blood, particularly well-known writers from other media, is a good thing for comics. The topic of "what happens after they're hired, they need to keep on top of deadlines" is a valid concern, but it's also a whole 'nother ball of wax and entirely beside the point of soliciting new talent.

Oh, and I am having a major crush on Patrick Sauriol.

- Elayne

Patrick Sauriol

02-14-2003, 03:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
[QUOTE]Kinda tricky to compare these three [Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison or Mark Waid], as all three were more than just "fans" when they began writing for mainstream publishers. Gaiman has a journalism background with a book credit or two, Morrison had numerous comic credits in the UK, and Waid was an editor at DC.

Even by today's tighter standards, people with the respective backgrounds of Gaiman and Morrison would probably be able to get in (Andy Diggle, for example...), while former editors usually have good networks of contacts.

<hr /></blockquote>You're right Matt, those three did have former writing experience they could point to, but as far as I know all Gaiman had was his previous journalism experience (and speaking as a fan of the 80s, an excellent biography of Duran Duran it was.) I'm not Neil so I'm only working off of the articles that I've read about the start of his DC career but the story I've heard is that Karen Berger flew to England for one of her talent finding trips in the late 80s. Gaiman came in on Friday, pitched a Black Orchid idea, she liked it and told him to write it up, and then Neil surprised her by having it done *and* having Dave McKean doing some concept artwork for the pitch *by Sunday*. The lesson I learned is that if you ever want to impress an editor, turn it around fast (and it doesn't hurt if you know Dave McKean!)

Having a previous published writing background does help but I also believe it shouldn't stand in the way if you've got the talent and the skills to be a pro. I can't tell you how many times I've heard amazing ideas for revamps of comic book series or characters being pitched by the person in front of me, standing in another pitch lineup at San Diego, but knowing they'll never get anywhere because the market is too soft to support unknown writers from breaking in. How many of the next generation's great comic writers have given up and walked away because it's just too damn hard?

Again, don't get me wrong because I would like to see a comic written by J.K. Rowling, Michael Chabon or some other celeb outside of comics. But I also believe that new talent needs to be cultivated by the majors because as cool as a J.K. Rowling comic could be, we know she isn't going to take over writing the monthly "Dr. Strange" book. What I think Marvel and DC should do is introduce a title in their ranks that's geared solely towards introducing new writers and artists and letting them prove they've got the magic by taking old, forgotten or outdated characters and making them shine. I'm imagining a book like the early-90s "Marvel Comics Presents" except instead of having Barry Windsor-Smith do "Weapon X" in it, select your top 10 amateur writers and artists, let them develop their stories and then publish them. If they're good the word will get out, especially amongst the online community. Hell, it could even be marketed in a magazine-like format and sold to newsstands. Growing up in the 70s I know that a lot of kids had their first exposure to comics by picking up those oversized Star Wars, Kiss and movie-related adaptations sold in 7-11s and bookstores. Hell, maybe you launch the new MCP with another "U-Decide" contest and whichever writer/artist/new concept is voted the fans favorite gets a chance at a full-fledged mini-series!

I know, I'm dreaming, and a project like this is a $100,000 risk for a company. Nevertheless, I just see so much potential out there being wasted, so many great artists and writers who are working two jobs to pay for their student loans or struggling to pay bills and they spend what's left saving for the annual pilgrimage to San Diego or buy stamps and photocopies to send off samples of their work. Give the next generation of unknowns a real chance at having their work published by a major comic book publisher and see what sprouts from those seeds.

Andre Williams

02-14-2003, 04:19 PM

Hello, everyone here today. My name is you guess it. This news is very interesting, because I am aspiring to write for Marvel or almost any Comic book Company for that matter. Now, on reading this info, I figure if it was hard to break into comics for regulars Joes before, how much harder will it be now? Now that there are some already sucessful people in the other entertainment biz trekking their way over here yonder to place this place call Marvel comics. I'm wondering do I have to write a successfull movie or published a sci-fi novel to even get considered. If a person have a story worth telling like the one I have, that has a great chance to become a number one selling comic book on the market today, would Marvel overlook me for some professional Joe who gained fame from their work elsewhere, outside the Marvel or DC comics world? Just recently I called Marvel and gave them my name and PH number to give this particular great artist who draws a Marvel book on the racks now. If this artist would to call me and he agrees to work with me I'm very positive that my creative owned project would be a top seller! I'm looking to make that happen.

QCCBob

02-14-2003, 10:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
Since Canadians are the only ones able to show QCCBOB how to think intelligently... :p <hr /></blockquote>If only in finding new and creative ways to try to explain simple common sense concepts...

Since others have pointed out your inability to get the facts right as is fairly usual when all you want to do is try to prove me wrong and fail to actually think about what is posted, I'll let those pass.

You 'misunderstand' and you 'misinterpret' quite a bit, so, in an attempt to make this as simple as possible, here's the problem...

Getting writers who do not know HOW to write for comic books would be fine IF Marvel had an editorial staff who knew how to produce good comic books on a regular, consistent basis to be able to teach them. That's the problem.

Oh, where's Ultimate Adventures #3? Where's the rest of Rising Stars? Where's the hinted at Dr. Strange mini? Don't even get me started on Kevin Smith... You have to be insane not to see where this stuff is a problem and that Marvel is simply incapable of fixing it. These guys don't care about their comic work and there isn't anyone at Marvel who is going to do anything about it and I fear this is going to get much worse.

QCCBob

02-14-2003, 10:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kerouac:
To prove that I'm not "rabidly anti-Marvel," I had this same question in regards to Dark Knight Strikes Again, particularly in light of the fact that I seem to recall hearing DC say that they WERE going to solicit the book only when it was ready to ship on time.<hr /></blockquote>And for those who don't know the retail side very well, DC made EVERY issue of Dark Knight Strikes Again returnable due to the lateness of #3. They did the same thing with Batman/Deathblow. A responsible publisher makes a mistake and tries to make it right without insults and lawsuits.

QCCBob

02-14-2003, 10:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
If y'all aren't prepared to say it, I am. This idea of bringing in new blood, particularly well-known writers from other media, is a good thing for comics. The topic of "what happens after they're hired, they need to keep on top of deadlines" is a valid concern, but it's also a whole 'nother ball of wax and entirely beside the point of soliciting new talent.<hr /></blockquote>But you nailed the problem. New talent isn't a bad thing, not having anyone there who is able to handle that new talent is a huge problem.

Maybe if they hired a guy to recruit new inkers to replace all the established, experienced ones, you'd have a slightly different view...

comicsareliterature

02-15-2003, 09:21 PM

Hello.

Bob, your little crony is unable to prove much.
Straszynski's work on Rising Stars and Midnight Nation has nothing to do with his work for Marvel. They are his personal projects that he does/did when he can/could (respectively). While his Spidey work has suffered from a couple of delays, that is not the exception to comics from any publisher. A few delays during the course of a 2 year period is not considered a horribly inconsistent work effort in comics. Of course, I imagine you and the ultra bright in math Raphael can look at the numbers that Amazing consistently produces and see where it is a great thing that this previous "film" writer IS good for comics, no? Honestly, Bob, wouldn't you like more successes like Straszynski in comics, or do you think Spidey would be better off without him?

By the way, Geoff Johns AND Jeph Loebs also came to comics from other media (Loebs states this in the recent Wizard interview). I think they are good examples of consistent and excellent writers in the comics field at the moment. They probably fit in even YOUR definition of writers who know HOW to write for comics.

So, looking at the numbers, again:

Successful and consistent writers of comics from "film" media:

Jeph Loebs
Goeff Johns
Mike Straszynski

Late, but consistently successful when he produces:

Kevin Smith

Less than successful, but usually on-time:

Mr. Zimmerman.

Again, the numbers still favour this move by Marvel. Not only are 3 of the 5 guys listed quite consistent for Marvel, but are also proven sales magnets for Marvel comics (as well as other publishers' books). 1 of the 5 is a consistent sales success, but completely falls under your "part-time" category. 1 of the 5 we can call a flop.

So, Bob, it seems that, if you look at the numbers of consistent and excellent writers from "film" who have made the jump to comics, the vast majority are doing quite well. Therefore, it seems that this is a good thing for Marvel to do. Unless you are QCCBOB and Raphael because you want to see Marvel fail as soon as possible so that you can say "I told you so" about the Q and J show.

Now, the only qualifier I will make in regards to the above numbers is that I am not sure how many other "film" writers have already made the jump to comics. So, if anyone has any other names to add to the list, please do. Unless 50 other names of unsuccessful writers is added, though, then my previous point stands. Marvel is demonstrating that writers from other media DO sell good comics more consistently than not, thereby making the move to add Teresa Focarile to the team (in regards to recruiting new talent from other media) a good one.

Raphael

02-16-2003, 01:40 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
 Straszynski is consistently on-time and writes great stories. <hr /></blockquote>[QB]

Pay attention, okay, because the previous sentence that YOU wrote is what I responded to.
Now, though, you're adding all kinds of weak-ass qualifiers that weren't there before and still have no bearing on what I said. Go look up the word "consistent". All three titles, and their publishing histories, are a matter of irrefutable fact. I hope you're not teaching English to those kids.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[QB]
Straszynski's work on Rising Stars and Midnight Nation has nothing to do with his work for Marvel. They are his personal projects that he does/did when he can/could (respectively).
<hr /></blockquote>[QB]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I wonder if Image agrees with you. "Sure, JMS, of course you can hand in your scripts whenever you want to. We're just the publisher and this can be your personal project. And of course we'll be happy to pay the late fees to Diamond. Would you like your massage now or after your tea?" Right. And I suppose that Dogma had nothing to do with Kevin Smith's work for Marvel, either. Geezuz!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[QB]
Unless you are QCCBOB and Raphael because you want to see Marvel fail as soon as possible so that you can say "I told you so" about the Q and J show. <hr /></blockquote>[QB]

Marvel this, Marvel that. You looking for a job? Do us all a favour and stop putting words in other people's mouths. I think you have enough trouble with your own.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[QB]
"little crony"
"the ultra bright in math"
<hr /></blockquote>Try again, you sycophantic, fatuous dolt.

________________________________________ __________
"Of course, you know, this means war!" -- Bugs Bunny

comicsareliterature

02-16-2003, 12:59 PM

Hello.

LOL. I am so sorry I hurt your feelings, Raphael... :( Oh, please don't go to war with me... :rolleyes: Of course, had you avoided the snide commentary in the first place...

In the world of comics, 20 issues over 2 years is considered consistent. The fact that Amazing Spiderman is always in the top sales group is further evidence of the book's consistency. I added the qualifiers to help you understand that consistency in the world of comics is somewhat different than in other areas. If we were using linguistic terms, the use of the word consistent in this manner would have been a colloquialism (I assume a linguistic genius like you can figure out that word, right??)in reference to the comics Industry. So, yes, Mr. Straszynski's work for Marvel, which is what I was referring to when Bob and I were first discussing this, has been consistent by comic standards. Whether Top Cow agrees with me or not is immaterial to the point. I was clearly, and still am, discussing Mr. Straszynski's, and others', work for Marvel. Are you following clearly this time, or should I email you a nice cut-out that you can colour in?? You should also note that Mr. Straszynski's relationship with Top Cow in regards to Midnight Nation and Rising Stars was/is different from his relationship with Marvel. In all honesty, YES, Mr. Straszynski's contract with Top Cow does allow him to hand the work in when he decides to.

By the way, I notice no attempt on your part to deal with the real issue at hand. Why is that? Too many names of big time "film" writers who came in and made the transition to comics successfully taken the wind out of any argument you can have? Hmmmm...maybe you are a math whiz, and figured out 2 + 2 = 4. Let me help you, though. Marvel hired a talent scout to look into bringing good writers from other literary media because they have experienced a lot of success with writers coming over from "film" in the past and present (1 out of 3 over the last 2 years). So, the creation of Ms. Focarile's position should be seen as a good thing. Bob immediately declaimed it for poor reasons, and I demonstrated why his reasons were poor. I found out later that there were even more people from outside media who were successful than I had known (bringing the total to 3 successful and consistent out of 5), and added them to the list further demonstrating why Marvel is smart to do this. Now, if you can contribute something to this conversation that is remotely intelligent, feel free to do so. Otherwise, why waste time?

Lol...nope, I am not looking for a job with Marvel as I love what I do, but I am sure you can get one at Bob's store... :p

Hope you enjoyed the new attempt, as per your request... :)

comicsareliterature

02-16-2003, 01:17 PM

Hello.

Bob, wasn't the Dr. Strange Mini put on the backburner so that Mr. Straszynski could do the new Supreme Powers ongoing with Gary Frank? Wouldn't you prefer a monthly by Straszynski as opposed to a mini? I know I would...

Now, I hope that I have shown you that 3 out of 5 is not a bad number in regards to writers who have come from the "film" medium to write comics. 3 of the 5 are consistent for Marvel in terms of output. 4 out of 5 are consistent in terms of sales success. Imagine if 3 out of 5 comic guys were capable of putting out consistently great books! I think the whole Industry would be rolling along quite beautifully, no?

Oh, and didn't a small no name who wrote some Vertigo book...I think Gaiman was his name...come from another literary media?? I love it...

Michael P

02-16-2003, 02:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
Christ on a stick with a side of butter, I can't believe you guys sometimes. I should have known better than to believe this move would elicit guarded excitement and praise rather than automatic condemnation before Teresa even settles in. No wonder so many pros look at these boards and think the posters are a bunch of whiners who hate comics.

If y'all aren't prepared to say it, I am. This idea of bringing in new blood, particularly well-known writers from other media, is a good thing for comics. The topic of "what happens after they're hired, they need to keep on top of deadlines" is a valid concern, but it's also a whole 'nother ball of wax and entirely beside the point of soliciting new talent.

Oh, and I am having a major crush on Patrick Sauriol.

- Elayne<hr /></blockquote>Well said, Elayne. Hey, everyone (and particularly you, QCCBob), let's wait for Theresa to actually hire someone before we criticize her hiring policies.

QCCBob

02-16-2003, 07:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Michael P:
Hey, everyone (and particularly you, QCCBob), let's wait for Theresa to actually hire someone before we criticize her hiring policies.<hr /></blockquote>Well, maybe you could find anywhere where I posted anything negative toward anything she's done??? I never said a bad word toward her at all. She hasn't done anything yet.

Now, as to Marvel, who has amply proven that they can't handle the new talent they already have, yup, I'll blast that until they prove me wrong.

QCCBob

02-16-2003, 08:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Raphael:
Try again, you sycophantic, fatuous dolt. <hr /></blockquote>Don't bother trying to use facts with CAL. It's a waste of time. See, CAL can't add. One mistake plus one mistake plus a bunch of insults plus one lawsuit plus one incorrect copyright notice plus one more lawsuit plus a boo boo like raising the price on a book after it's solicited with a different page count to boot equals one LITTLE mistake. When you bear in mind that he considers breaching the Terms of Sale Contract as an error in judgement, you begin to see the problem. In his mind, Marvel gets a clean slate after every 'mistake'. It's unfair to actually hold them accountable for past actions or to use their track record as a tool for predicting their actions/motivations.

He's just an anti-troll of sorts preaching mindless positivity toward Marvel because their right to exist supercedes anyone else's right to exist and anything they do, they do for a good reason, no matter how dumb, pointless, or many times proven to fail it may be.

wraith

02-16-2003, 08:33 PM

Look, lets be honest for a moment here people. The whole "lets hire new writers from other media outlets" (screen writers,play writers,and novelist) is nothing more then marvel trying to exploit/cash in on what they beleave is the only way to sale comics. They feel that if they get a well known bigshot from hollywood (who, to be honest, are the types of creators they're realy looking for) to write their books and hype them up to no end, that tey will sell a hundred thousand copies of that creators comic. Now don't ge me wrong, I'm all for hiring writers from oter forms of media to write comics, but I feel tat those writers should be hired based on their ability to write GOOD COMICS on a TIMELY basis. Also, if marvel was truely interested in having great writers from other medias write their books, then they would'nt have kicked robert weinberg off of cable.

I should also point out, that kevin smith and JMS (who's work on amazing spider-man I happen to enjoy) success in the comic industry,is due more to their celebrity status and cult following among comic fans of their tv and movie work, then the actual quality of their comic work. Hell, no one gave a damn/thought much about JMS comic book writing when he was writing the crappy new teen titans spotlight ongong series for DC in the mid 80's. Which is funny, since he was already an established and successful hollywood writer and producer at that time (he was the producer/writer of the very cool real ghostbusters cartoon) he wrote teen titans spotlight.

QCCBob

02-16-2003, 09:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wraith:
They feel that if they get a well known bigshot from hollywood (who, to be honest, are the types of creators they're realy looking for) to write their books and hype them up to no end, that tey will sell a hundred thousand copies of that creators comic.<hr /></blockquote>Your heart is in the right place, but I think you are a little wrong. They don't care about actually selling the comics, they just want the press to get their name out. That's all they care about is making it seem like they are popular to the 'real' world, so they can license products and make movies. Comic sales apparently don't mean a lot to them or else Marville and anything crapped out by Zimmerman would never see the light of day. Did you know that the actual copyright holder for Spider-Man and the rest is NOT Marvel Comics? It's Marvel Characters Inc., Marvel Comics is just a brand name. The actual company is Marvel Enterprises, comics don't mean much I fear.

QCCBob

02-16-2003, 09:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
Honestly, Bob, wouldn't you like more successes like Straszynski in comics, or do you think Spidey would be better off without him?
<hr /></blockquote>Hey, it's a direct question! It would be impolite not to answer it, so...

If you define 'successes' as being hugely self-important, unable to accept the slightest criticism, being unable/unwilling to produce contracted material on a consistent (if not timely) basis no matter who his employer may be, and adding some inane mystical crapola to getting bitten by a radioactive spider with some of the worst soap opera scripting outside of daytime TV, then, NO, I don't want more like him.

As to Amazing, as a reader as opposed to a retailer, bring back the clones, they made more sense than the drivel in the book now. The JMS who became popular with Top Cow was one of the top ten writers in this biz. The JMS who apparently sleepwalks through 'Rising Stars' now, assuming it's not ghosted, and works on Amazing whose next 'original' project is to recycle Gruenwald's excellent 'Squadron Supreme' with dirty words and more graphic violence sucks IMHO.

comicsareliterature

02-17-2003, 12:11 AM

Hello.

To QCCBOB: Ouch, I guess you don't like Straszynski? lol. Well, I have to admit that his Amazing is the first I have bought in over 3 years. I think the mysticism, while somewhat jarring for we older readers, is an interesting angle. Heck, you are willing to accept a man becoming a superhero by a spider bite, but will get completely freaked out by the same character getting a little mysticism included in his background? Tough crowd...

Well, now that you answered as a collector/reader, how about we try the same question that sparked this answer but with you replying as a retailer. Your personal opinion about Spidey was nice, but not relevant to the original discussion. You DO remember the original discussion, right? I know when you are unable to counter my arguments you usually retreat into your usual tomfoolery, but try, just try, to deal with the topic at hand. Keep in mind that 3 of the 5 "film" related writers who have crossed over into comics over the last couple of years have proven themselves to be consistent for Marvel in both sales, and work. Try sticking to the argument, Bob.

wraith

02-17-2003, 01:32 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QCCBob:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wraith:
They feel that if they get a well known bigshot from hollywood (who, to be honest, are the types of creators they're realy looking for) to write their books and hype them up to no end, that tey will sell a hundred thousand copies of that creators comic.<hr /></blockquote>Your heart is in the right place, but I think you are a little wrong. They don't care about actually selling the comics, they just want the press to get their name out. That's all they care about is making it seem like they are popular to the 'real' world, so they can license products and make movies. Comic sales apparently don't mean a lot to them or else Marville and anything crapped out by Zimmerman would never see the light of day. Did you know that the actual copyright holder for Spider-Man and the rest is NOT Marvel Comics? It's Marvel Characters Inc., Marvel Comics is just a brand name. The actual company is Marvel Enterprises, comics don't mean much I fear.<hr /></blockquote>Good point. I should also point out, that the added publicity would make quemas look good in the eyes of avi arad and the rest of the top suits at marvel (at least temporaily). Also, am I te only one who thinks that this latest stunt, as well as the sudden and large release of the tsunami books, is an act of desperation on quemas's part. Maybe joe and bill's jobs are on the line.

wraith

02-17-2003, 01:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QCCBob:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
Honestly, Bob, wouldn't you like more successes like Straszynski in comics, or do you think Spidey would be better off without him?
<hr /></blockquote>Hey, it's a direct question! It would be impolite not to answer it, so...

If you define 'successes' as being hugely self-important, unable to accept the slightest criticism, being unable/unwilling to produce contracted material on a consistent (if not timely) basis no matter who his employer may be, and adding some inane mystical crapola to getting bitten by a radioactive spider with some of the worst soap opera scripting outside of daytime TV, then, NO, I don't want more like him.

As to Amazing, as a reader as opposed to a retailer, bring back the clones, they made more sense than the drivel in the book now. The JMS who became popular with Top Cow was one of the top ten writers in this biz. The JMS who apparently sleepwalks through 'Rising Stars' now, assuming it's not ghosted, and works on Amazing whose next 'original' project is to recycle Gruenwald's excellent 'Squadron Supreme' with dirty words and more graphic violence sucks IMHO.<hr /></blockquote>Speaking of JMS,rising stars,and mark gruenwald. Am I the only one who see's the similarities between rising stars and marvel's new universe concept, specificly gruenwald's DP7?

Raphael

02-17-2003, 01:51 AM

I'm beginning to see what QCCBOB keeps referring to. Your tunnel vision is something to behold. You ignore facts and you ignore common sense. You just dig in your intransigent heels and dig yourself even deeper into a hole of apologism for Marvel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
In the world of comics, 20 issues over 2 years is considered consistent. <hr /></blockquote>

No. In the world of monthly comics, 20 issues over 2 years is considered to be 4 months behind schedule. No matter how you slice it, that means that the writer, no matter who it is, is not "consistently on time".

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
The fact that Amazing Spiderman is always in the top sales group is... <hr /></blockquote>

... irrelevant to the phrase "consistently on time". You do realize that if Ultimates #7 has preorders of 100,000, but comes out 3 months late, while Mudman has preorders of 50,000 and comes out on time for 3 months in a row, that Mudman (which wouldn't be in the top 10) has better actual sales and is making more money for its publisher? You do realize that, don't you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I added the qualifiers to help you understand that consistency in the world of comics is somewhat different than in other areas. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, damn, boy! I guess I'll just throw this little ol' dictionary away! From now on, we'll all just ask you what all these pesky words mean. Gawrsh! Life sure is gonna be easy from now on, cuz you can just have these little ol' discussions with yourself, accordin' to your own little rules and definitions! Thankee so much, Mr. Cal.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
So, yes, Mr. Straszynski's work for Marvel, which is what I was referring to when Bob and I were first discussing this, has been consistent by comic standards. <hr /></blockquote>

Only in your world and only according to you... which does not make it so.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Whether Top Cow agrees with me or not is immaterial to the point. I was clearly, and still am, discussing Mr. Straszynski's, and others', work for Marvel. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, by all means, keep ignoring the oh-so-immaterial fact that if someone works for Company A, but also works for Company B and Company C, then his work performance at Company A is NOT affected by his work at B and C. Yeah, keep telling yourself that it's immaterial to the point. (And Kevin Smith's tardiness with Daredevil Target has NOTHING to do with his work in Hollywood. Daredevil Target is just a personal project for him and that's okay with Marvel and Marvel's stockholders and Marvel's creditors.)
Right.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
You should also note that Mr. Straszynski's relationship with Top Cow in regards to Midnight Nation and Rising Stars was/is different from his relationship with Marvel. In all honesty, YES, Mr. Straszynski's contract with Top Cow does allow him to hand the work in when he decides to.
<hr /></blockquote>

Now that's amazing! I mean, really effin' amazing! And you know this for a fact? I think you should give this scoop to Newsarama and Splash and CBG and TCJ because I'm sure that every comic book fan would like to know more. Stop the presses! Cuz cal says it's so.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Now, if you can contribute something to this conversation that is remotely intelligent, feel free to do so. Otherwise, why waste time? <hr /></blockquote>

Unlike you, of course, and your pearls of wisdom.
But you're absolutely right. I defer to your infinite wisdom, oh keeper of the faith. Keep digging that hole, y'hear.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Lol...nope, I am not looking for a job with Marvel as I love what I do, but I am sure you can get one at Bob's store...
<hr /></blockquote>I don't know Bob, and I already have a job. (Boy, wouldn't it be something if I happened to already do freelance work with your favorite publisher? That would certainly put a whole new spin on things, wouldn't it? Maybe you should work for me? On second thought... nah.)

comicsareliterature

02-17-2003, 11:29 AM

Hello.

Raphael, there are accepted norms in any Industry. For the comic Industry, 10 issues in a year is an acceptable level of consistency, and is even in various creators' contracts. Of course, an "insider" would know that...

Hmmm...first you claim that the sales consistency is irrelevant, then you give your slanted view of the situation. Let's use one of your numbers and Mr. Straszynski's average output. If Amazing preorders 90 000 and comes out 10 times a year, and Mudman preorders 50 000 and comes out 12 times a year, I think a math whiz like you should be able to figure out which one benefits the publisher the most, no? lol.

No, no, no, don't throw out the dictionary! First, you need it. Second, it is amusing to imagine you reading my posts with one beside you, all the while wondering about my linguistic abilities... :)

Now, if you want to ask real Industry insiders, many will tell you (as have told me... :) ) that 10 comics in a year is a consistent output. Everything is relative, Raphael. In comics, 10 issues in a 12 issue year is considered consistent. Is it 12 issues in 12 months? No. That does not make it inconsistent. It really depends on the contract that was signed with the publisher and what is expected by both parties who signed the contract.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes, by all means, keep ignoring the oh-so-immaterial fact that if someone works for Company A, but also works for Company B and Company C, then his work performance at Company A is NOT affected by his work at B and C. Yeah, keep telling yourself that it's immaterial to the point. (And Kevin Smith's tardiness with Daredevil Target has NOTHING to do with his work in Hollywood. Daredevil Target is just a personal project for him and that's okay with Marvel and Marvel's stockholders and Marvel's creditors.)Right. <hr /></blockquote>Sigh, you really are somewhat clueless here, aren't you? The issue was not whether or not Mr. Straszynski's work for Top Cow was consistent, it was a question dealing with his Marvel work. If someone doesn't do appropriate work at Company A, that does not necessarily mean he/she will not do appropriate work for Company B or C. Each company a person works with has a different dynamic. Mr. Straszynski has put out Amazing Spiderman consistently over the last 2 years for Marvel, even though he has been quite inconsistent with his Top Cow work. So, based on his Marvel performance, Marvel can feel good about the amount of issues he has done for them, and about his ability to keep a schedule. When you add the increased sales his run has generated...well, do the math, whiz... :) Your point about Kevin Smith was never argued. Kevin Smith is consistently inconsistent in terms of producing his work in a timely manner. That is why he was not among the top 3 in the 5 "film" writers who have converted to comics in terms of doing his work in an appropriate manner.

As far as Mr. Straszynski's contract with Top Cow, I believe he has said on a few occasions that he has the leeway to hand the work in when he desires and is able. Actually, when he came onto Amazing he stated that other comic work might slow down because he wanted to keep Amazing on track and had other commitments to deal with.

Ah...finally you say something intelligent:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I defer to your infinite wisdom <hr /></blockquote>If you DO work for ANY publisher, then maybe you should ask other creators about whether or not 10 of 12 issues each year is considered to be a consistent output in comics today? Then you should also probably get your resume ready so that you can find work at Bob's store (just in case) ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Need I point out that anyone can pretend to work for Marvel in an effort to add credibility to a failing argument? I can also point out that you keep sidestepping the original issue that Bob brought up.

Neither you nor Bob have proven that "film" related writers who have crossed over to comics are not just as good as, or even better (statistically speaking), than guys who have always been comic writers. Neither of you have been able to discredit the fact that 3 out of 5 recent "film" writers who crossed over have been extremely successful (sales AND output). You are both good at obfuscating the discussion with silliness and rhetoric, but have difficulty maintaining your end of the debate. Please, I offer you the chance to try again... :)

Elayne Riggs

02-17-2003, 12:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Patrick Sauriol:
Having a previous published writing background does help but I also believe it shouldn't stand in the way if you've got the talent and the skills to be a pro. I can't tell you how many times I've heard amazing ideas for revamps of comic book series or characters being pitched by the person in front of me, standing in another pitch lineup at San Diego, but knowing they'll never get anywhere because the market is too soft to support unknown writers from breaking in. How many of the next generation's great comic writers have given up and walked away because it's just too damn hard?<hr /></blockquote>Well come on, Patrick, you ought to know there's a world of difference between ideas and execution. I've been involved in a number of amateur-writer mailing lists and such, and ideas really are a dime a dozen, and just about everyone can type words onto a page, but it is hard and it does take work to actually take those ideas and that typing and combine it all into a readable story.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Again, don't get me wrong because I would like to see a comic written by J.K. Rowling, Michael Chabon or some other celeb outside of comics. But I also believe that new talent needs to be cultivated by the majors...<hr /></blockquote>And I think you'll agree with me that this isn't an either-or thing, that hiring someone to recruit professional writers from outside of comics in no way precludes cultivating new talent from other venues - in fact, we've seen much more of the latter than the former of late, what with Marvel paying loads of attention to manga artists and folks with good self-publishing track records.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What I think Marvel and DC should do is introduce a title in their ranks that's geared solely towards introducing new writers and artists and letting them prove they've got the magic by taking old, forgotten or outdated characters and making them shine.<hr /></blockquote>Oh sweetie, they've tried, but those titles just don't sell. How is X-Men Unlimited doing sales-wise? Because that's the latest incarnation of this idea that I'm seeing.

If the goal is to sell books, the means to that end is going to be trying to figure out what will accomplish those sales. Famous writer names are likelier to get there than previous unknown quantities, both on the basis of name recognition and professional track records of telling stories that people want to read.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just see so much potential out there being wasted, so many great artists and writers who are working two jobs to pay for their student loans or struggling to pay bills and they spend what's left saving for the annual pilgrimage to San Diego or buy stamps and photocopies to send off samples of their work.<hr /></blockquote>Too bad they haven't yet discovered the Internet. Seriously, building up an online resume is one of the best ways to get noticed nowadays. And by the way, trust me on this, the sample-sending doesn't stop once you're an established pro.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

02-17-2003, 12:59 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Andre Williams:
This news is very interesting, because I am aspiring to write for Marvel or almost any Comic book Company for that matter. Now, on reading this info, I figure if it was hard to break into comics for regulars Joes before, how much harder will it be now?<hr /></blockquote>It's immensely hard now, but not because of pro writers from other fields being recruited. It's hard because, with product not selling, there's not enough work to go around for all the established pros who need it. That's your real competition, people who've been writing good stories for a long time and are still vital and need the work.

Now, consider: If recruiting good professional writing talent from other media will help sell more comics, and Marvel believes it will, then that will mean more people buying books, which will lead to an expansion of the medium which will lead to more work available for everyone. This is what I mean by "this is a good thing for comics."

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

02-17-2003, 01:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QCCBob:
Getting writers who do not know HOW to write for comic books would be fine IF...<hr /></blockquote>False premise to begin with, Bob. It's not a given that just because you write professionally in a different medium you don't know how to write for comics. It's certainly a different discipline, but it's not insurmountable. Not everyone's Mario Puzo. :)

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

02-17-2003, 01:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QCCBob:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
If y'all aren't prepared to say it, I am. This idea of bringing in new blood, particularly well-known writers from other media, is a good thing for comics. The topic of "what happens after they're hired, they need to keep on top of deadlines" is a valid concern, but it's also a whole 'nother ball of wax and entirely beside the point of soliciting new talent.<hr /></blockquote>But you nailed the problem. New talent isn't a bad thing, not having anyone there who is able to handle that new talent is a huge problem.

Maybe if they hired a guy to recruit new inkers to replace all the established, experienced ones, you'd have a slightly different view...<hr /></blockquote>Bob, this isn't a replacement! This is in addition to what they're doing already! Nobody was let go so that Teresa could be hired. I'm afraid you're miring yourself here in bad analogies. In any case, the side issue of "are these new people going to crowd out the old ones" wasn't even implicit in my post to which you were responding; that post was talking about another wholly unrelated side issue, that of deadlines.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

02-17-2003, 01:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wraith:
Now don't ge me wrong, I'm all for hiring writers from oter forms of media to write comics, but I feel that those writers should be hired based on their ability to write GOOD COMICS...<hr /></blockquote>I see nothing in Teresa's hiring to indicate that Marvel feels otherwise.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

02-17-2003, 01:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Raphael:
Originally posted by Comics Are Literature:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />In the world of comics, 20 issues over 2 years is considered consistent. <hr /></blockquote>No. In the world of monthly comics, 20 issues over 2 years is considered to be 4 months behind schedule. No matter how you slice it, that means that the writer, no matter who it is, is not "consistently on time". <hr /></blockquote>

Um, actually, CAL's right, I know of some contracts that are based on doing 10 issues per year; so yes, some do consider that number to be consistent and timely and regular.

- Elayne

QCCBob

02-17-2003, 07:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
False premise to begin with, Bob. It's not a given that just because you write professionally in a different medium you don't know how to write for comics. It's certainly a different discipline, but it's not insurmountable.<hr /></blockquote>Hmm, guess I'll beg to disagree, although I will point out I never claimed it to an absolute as you did in 'quoting' me. Zimmerman, for example, may be able to get consistent work in the TV field, but his comics are just bad. My point is a good writer/storyteller in one field does not always transfer easily to another. Look at the first couple of Kevin Smith's DD which were painfully over dialogued. This is a cooperative medium and many writers are not used to working in a team with an artist. Some can make the transition easily, some can't. Remember Sam Hamm's Batman?

QCCBob

02-17-2003, 07:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
I'm afraid you're miring yourself here in bad analogies. In any case, the side issue of "are these new people going to crowd out the old ones" wasn't even implicit in my post to which you were responding; that post was talking about another wholly unrelated side issue, that of deadlines.

- Elayne<hr /></blockquote>No, Elayne, you misunderstood me. Marvel is looking for outside writers which would be brought in to replace existing writers and block these young hopefuls that you can't relate to. I was responding to the first part of your post about all the negativity. By making a parallel to your talented hubby, I thought it would clarify the point.

I have no problem with the actual hire and hope that the lady does a great job. I just fear what's going to happen once these new writers start producing books. I don't need another Punisher issue with a rookie who has to apologize to the whole wide world because he wrote it over a weekend as a favor or another big shot who does comics as his last priority in his spare time as long as a producing gig doesn't come along.

QCCBob

02-17-2003, 07:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
Well, now that you answered as a collector/reader, how about we try the same question that sparked this answer but with you replying as a retailer.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, gee, I forgot that you ignore everything else I post. Sales are dropping on Amazing both in press runs and at my store. I didn't think the retailer part needed to be re-stated. There are four regular customers that have told me already that they are giving #50 one last shot to make them not have to quit.

comicsareliterature

02-18-2003, 01:04 AM

Hello.

To Elayne Riggs: Thank you for an insider's voice in regards to the reality of what is considered consistent in the Comics Industry... :)

Good luck trying to get Bob to see what you are saying in the rest of your statement.

To QCCBOB: Actually, Bob, I responded at length to your previous posts. You really need to try reading the replies people make to you rather than base your arguments on what you assume they will write.

wraith

02-18-2003, 01:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wraith:
Now don't ge me wrong, I'm all for hiring writers from oter forms of media to write comics, but I feel that those writers should be hired based on their ability to write GOOD COMICS...<hr /></blockquote>I see nothing in Teresa's hiring to indicate that Marvel feels otherwise.

- Elayne<hr /></blockquote>Just because she did'nt say so or give any kind of indication that marvel would be hiring writers from other forms of entertainment based more on their celebrity status, then their ability to actualy write good comics, does'nt mean it is'nt true or won't be the case sometime down the line. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure her intentions are noble, but that does'nt mean that bill and joe share those same noble intentions. It's a safe bet, that if quemas had to choose between a great iron man script writen by fabian nieceiza or a terrible iron man script writen by steven spielberg, they would pick spielberg's script in a heartbeat.

Raphael

02-18-2003, 01:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:

I know of some contracts that are based on doing 10 issues per year; so yes, some do consider that number to be consistent and timely and regular.

- Elayne<hr /></blockquote>Well, if you say it happens, Elayne, then I believe it to be so. In this case, however, I'm speaking directly about JMS and Amazing Spider-Man, which is a monthly title and is solicited to be monthly. But it doesn't come out monthly. Hence, it's not consistently on time.

Raphael

02-18-2003, 01:58 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:

In comics, 10 issues in a 12 issue year is considered consistent. Is it 12 issues in 12 months? No. That does not make it inconsistent. <hr /></blockquote>

Sigh. It doesn't make it "consistently on time", though, either. That's all I was addressing.

You know what? Never mind. I give up, CAL. If you have a student with a 88% attendance record and you want to write that he's "consistently on time" on his report card, then go ahead. It'll be okay because... his name has a vowel in it or maybe it'll be Tuesday or maybe the wind will be from the west that day. Whatever. I'm sure that he and his parents will thank you for your steadfast adherence to logic.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
If you DO work for ANY publisher, then maybe you should ask other creators about whether or not 10 of 12 issues each year is considered to be a consistent output in comics today? <hr /></blockquote>Ask any publisher (other than Marvel) and see if they think that a monthly comic should come out 12 times a year, on time, or just 10. And maybe, just maybe, if they expect their creators to do the job they're supposed to do, "consistently on time", or not.

Anyway... adios, CAL, and, by the way, the sky is blue on this world, no matter how much you may argue otherwise.

BOB, he's all yours. And I feel your pain.

comicsareliterature

02-18-2003, 10:58 AM

Hello.

To Raphael: ROTFLMAO!!!! Hey, Mr. "Insider at my favourite publisher" can you not graciously accept being shown some reality without pouting???

Ok, I know that was juvenile. Sorry, but you really annoyed me with your snide remarks about what you hope I am not teaching my kids. Now, all I was trying to show you was that in comics a 10 issue production out of 12 possible issues is considered in this particular Industry to be consistent output. Would you or I be able to get away with it in our jobs? Probably not, which is why I used the colloquialism analogy. I hope you get what I was saying.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If you have a student with a 88% attendance record and you want to write that he's "consistently on time" on his report card, then go ahead. <hr /></blockquote>Actually, it is quite possible for my student to have an 88% attendance record and still be consistently on time (you do know that they are 2 different things, right?). Keep in mind, that you can be in school on-time everyday that you are there (meaning consistently on-time), but miss 12% of your school days (which is pretty good attendance). So, yes, if a student was on-time consistently, but was only present 88% of the time, I would happily put "consistently on-time". You might want to double check your example. I guess it is a good thing that I am the teacher rather than you... :)

Oh, and after looking outside I will happily concur that the sky is blue... :) See? You aren't always wrong.

I imagine that ANY company would be happy to have Mr. Strascynski selling issues of a comic for them in the course of a year as opposed to not selling any comics for them. I mean, that could be why Top Cow signed him to do Midnight Nation and Rising Stars, no?

You may now bow out graciously and enjoy leaving me to Bob's tender mercies... :) Thanks for the laughs.

Elayne Riggs

02-18-2003, 03:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QCCBob:
My point is a good writer/storyteller in one field does not always transfer easily to another.<hr /></blockquote>Ah, thanks for clarifying this. I thought your point was that a good storyteller in one field does not ever transfer easily to another. :)

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

02-18-2003, 03:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QCCBob:
No, Elayne, you misunderstood me. Marvel is looking for outside writers which would be brought in to replace existing writers and block these young hopefuls that you can't relate to.<hr /></blockquote>No, they aren't. They're not blocking anyone, they're not replacing anyone, because this position didn't exist before. And just because I'm an old hopeful doesn't mean I can't relate to young hopefuls. Erm, except I don't understand all their wacky slang. :)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have no problem with the actual hire and hope that the lady does a great job. I just fear what's going to happen once these new writers start producing books.<hr /></blockquote>Presumably the stories will sell; at least that's what Marvel's hoping. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't need another Punisher issue with a rookie who has to apologize to the whole wide world because he wrote it over a weekend as a favor or another big shot who does comics as his last priority in his spare time as long as a producing gig doesn't come along.<hr /></blockquote>As opposed to an established writer who devotes less than week to a book or does it in his/her spare time to supplement his/her full-time job? (Those two examples probably comprise most writers currently working professionally in comics.) I think it's going to come down to the individual, Bob.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

02-18-2003, 03:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wraith:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wraith:
Now don't ge me wrong, I'm all for hiring writers from oter forms of media to write comics, but I feel that those writers should be hired based on their ability to write GOOD COMICS...<hr /></blockquote>I see nothing in Teresa's hiring to indicate that Marvel feels otherwise.<hr /></blockquote>Just because she did'nt say so or give any kind of indication that marvel would be hiring writers from other forms of entertainment based more on their celebrity status, then their ability to actualy write good comics, does'nt mean it is'nt true or won't be the case sometime down the line.<hr /></blockquote>Wow! And I thought today was my day to be all bitchy and negative on the comics boards! I bow to your superior sense of innate pessimism despite all evidence to the contrary, Wraith. :)

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

02-18-2003, 03:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Raphael:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
I know of some contracts that are based on doing 10 issues per year; so yes, some do consider that number to be consistent and timely and regular.<hr /></blockquote>Well, if you say it happens, Elayne, then I believe it to be so. In this case, however, I'm speaking directly about JMS and Amazing Spider-Man, which is a monthly title and is solicited to be monthly. But it doesn't come out monthly. Hence, it's not consistently on time.<hr /></blockquote>My observation wasn't meant to illustrate a specific example, or explain why books are late. It was just to state a fact, that in today's world 10 issues per year is considered good enough to be "monthly." Of course, it's also been my understanding that this has applied more to artists than to writers.

- Elayne

QCCBob

02-18-2003, 03:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
To QCCBOB: Actually, Bob, I responded at length to your previous posts. You really need to try reading the replies people make to you rather than base your arguments on what you assume they will write.<hr /></blockquote>Facsinating blind spot there, when you ask a question that had been covered at length previously, I made the mistake of thinking you meant me personally, not professionally. Logic dictates that my professional opinion on most of the current, print run dropping titles at Marvel is well documented. I mentioned the part about my customers to jog your seemingly failing memory. The only assumption I made was that you had enough sense not to be asking me something that we'd covered before.

QCCBob

02-18-2003, 03:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QCCBob:
No, Elayne, you misunderstood me. Marvel is looking for outside writers which would be brought in to replace existing writers and block these young hopefuls that you can't relate to.<hr /></blockquote>No, they aren't. They're not blocking anyone, they're not replacing anyone, because this position didn't exist before. And just because I'm an old hopeful doesn't mean I can't relate to young hopefuls. Erm, except I don't understand all their wacky slang. :)
<hr /></blockquote>Ok, I must be letting this sinus infection get to me worse than I thought. Let's try again...

My point about inkers being replaced was to explain your apparent misunderstanding of why so many people reacted negatively as evidenced by this quote of yours
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Christ on a stick with a side of butter, I can't believe you guys sometimes. I should have known better than to believe this move would elicit guarded excitement and praise rather than automatic condemnation before Teresa even settles in. No wonder so many pros look at these boards and think the posters are a bunch of whiners who hate comics.
<hr /></blockquote>Many of these 'hopefuls' look at this as a door slamming in their face. My objections, not to the actual hire, are from an entirely different angle, but I just wanted to clarify to you where they are coming from.

If you were trying to break in as a comic writer without having tons of screenwriting credits, would this look very promising for you? I doubt it. That's all I was getting at.

QCCBob

02-18-2003, 04:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
As opposed to an established writer who devotes less than week to a book or does it in his/her spare time to supplement his/her full-time job? (Those two examples probably comprise most writers currently working professionally in comics.) I think it's going to come down to the individual, Bob.

- Elayne<hr /></blockquote>Indeed, but the most celebrated examples so far are well in that mold. JMS who stated plainly that his comics work is his last priority. Kevin 'MIA' Smith needs no further discussion. Is Ultimate Adventures late due to Zimmerman personally, the artist, or an editorial decision that it's better to rush out Rawhide Kid than to continue a title that was billed as crossing over with a miniseries that will be over before we re-order the tie in?

Bear in mind, I don't blame the writers (or artists like Hitch, Quitely, Joe Mad, & Campbell) as much as I do the blatantly inept editorial staffs that put them in a position to screw us (retailers and fans) over again and again.

wraith

02-19-2003, 12:18 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wraith:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wraith:
Now don't ge me wrong, I'm all for hiring writers from oter forms of media to write comics, but I feel that those writers should be hired based on their ability to write GOOD COMICS...<hr /></blockquote>I see nothing in Teresa's hiring to indicate that Marvel feels otherwise.<hr /></blockquote>Just because she did'nt say so or give any kind of indication that marvel would be hiring writers from other forms of entertainment based more on their celebrity status, then their ability to actualy write good comics, does'nt mean it is'nt true or won't be the case sometime down the line.<hr /></blockquote>Wow! And I thought today was my day to be all bitchy and negative on the comics boards! I bow to your superior sense of innate pessimism despite all evidence to the contrary, Wraith. :)

- Elayne<hr /></blockquote>Hey, what can I say, I'm just naturaly pessimistic. :) The thing is my "pessimistic sense" is usualy right. Especialy when it comes to predicting events and actions, as well as the inevitable outcome and consequences of those very events and actions, in the comic book industry.

comicsareliterature

02-19-2003, 03:50 PM

Hello.

To QCCBOB:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Logic dictates that my professional opinion on most of the current, print run dropping titles at Marvel is well documented. I mentioned the part about my customers to jog your seemingly failing memory. The only assumption I made was that you had enough sense not to be asking me something that we'd covered before. <hr /></blockquote>Hmmmm...logic dictates that most retailers have been very happy with JMS and the sales success Spidey has had under him. In case you forgot, Bob, here is a sample of what Spiderman sales were like pre-JMS:

Amazing Spiderman #29 -- 45 436

Here are some sales figures POST-JMS:

Amazing Spiderman #30 -- 71 393
Amazing Spiderman #36 -- 86 456
Amazing Spiderman #41 -- 92 896
Amazing Spiderman #42 -- 96 537
Amazing Spiderman #45 -- 98 817
Amazing Spiderman #49 -- 90 032
Amazing Spiderman #50 -- 100 439

You know, Bob, I guess the 4 guys you might lose after #50 will constitute enough of a loss in sales to totally discount all of the increased sales JMS did bring in. Heck, why not just ask Marvel to get the guy who has comic writing experience and was writing Spiderman when it was selling in the 40 000 range to take over from that horrible Mr. Straszynski who merely (consistently? :) )keeps Spiderman sales in the 70 000 to 100 000 range. Lol. Yup, you totally proved your point this time, Bob... :)

So, how, again, is it that you see writers converted from other media into comic writers as a bad thing?

Marvel has Mr. Johns, Mr. Loebs, and Mr. Straszynski, all successfully writing and selling Marvel comics as examples of why getting talent from other media to write for comics is a good move, whiloe only having Kevin Smith and Ron Zimmerman as poor examples. QCCBOB, though, wants Marvel to forget about all of the successful sales they have gotten based on individuals who came to them via film simply because, according to Bob, JMS is a poor example of the sales Marvel wants. Lol. This is why I love arguing with you, Bob, you make it soooooo easy... :)

wraith

02-19-2003, 06:03 PM

Hi CAL

It should be noted, that while ASM #50 sales saw an inreas to 100,000 copies, the sales increase is due more to the fact that ASM #50 is an aniversary issue (not to mention, it's the issue we will finaly see the whole peter and mary jane marriage/divorce plot resolved),then to the actual quality of the book.

comicsareliterature

02-19-2003, 10:20 PM

Hello.

To wraith: Hey, bub... :) I am not going to disagree with what you said because it is true! At the same time, though, the numbers I quoted still prove my point with regards to my discussion with QCCBOB. JMS has brought between 30 000 and 55 000 extra sales per month during his tenure compared to the tenure of the previous writer. Further to my point, JMS is the kind of talent that Bob hopes Marvel doesn't recruit, whereas the writer who had been killing Amazing before JMS falls into Bob's category of a comic writer that Marvel should keep onboard. I am simply trying to show Bob where he is a little off in his thinking on this one. Of course he will cling to the decrease of almost 10 000 copies in sales between Amazing # 44 (I believe) and #49 (we will ignore #50 for the reasons you quoted)as reasons for canning JMS, all the while forgetting that the sales of Amazing before JMS were over 45 000 copies less than they currently are! Don't worry, though, wraith, I am sure QCCBOB will come back and tell us all how I misinterpreted what he said, once again. He doesn't seem to realize that everything he writes is in print... :p (Come on, Bob, that was a gimme... :) )

Thanks for the commentary... :)

QCCBob

02-19-2003, 10:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
[QB]Here are some sales figures POST-JMS:

Amazing Spiderman #45 -- 98 817
Amazing Spiderman #49 -- 90 032
Amazing Spiderman #50 -- 100 439<hr /></blockquote>You really can't grasp abstract thinking and logic, can you? You post the drop from #45 to #49 and totally ignore it's existence. So, I guess that drop was due to a mistake in calculation? Boy, you do know how to prove a point about sales with a anniversary issue handy, though. Gotta give you credit there, CAL, no one would raise the order on an anniversary issue unless it was blowing the doors off!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

comicsareliterature

02-19-2003, 10:51 PM

LOL. Bob, go read the post just above yours...

comicsareliterature

02-19-2003, 10:57 PM

You see, wraith? I told you he would ignore everything that hurts his argument and focus on something that still hurts his overall argument. Lol. Go on, Bob, keep deluding yourself that Straszynski's run is worse than the previous run in terms of sales...LOL.

QCCBob

02-19-2003, 10:59 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
[QB]So, how, again, is it that you see writers converted from other media into comic writers as a bad thing?<hr /></blockquote>I never said that, not once. Try actually reading a post now and again, CAL.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Getting writers who do not know HOW to write for comic books would be fine IF Marvel had an editorial staff who knew how to produce good comic books on a regular, consistent basis to be able to teach them. That's the problem.<hr /></blockquote>You brought up the side issues. You think JMS is great, fine. I say his Top Cow stuff, pre-Marvel, was top notch. Once he learned the Marvel way, all of his work quality has dropped. You say Johns is great. I say he's the guy writing the best consistent books at DC right now. His Marvel stuff is slow and not even in the ball park next to JSA, Flash, and Hawkman. What's the difference? DC has editors and writers write comic books, Marvel has traffic directors/spell checkers and writers write trade paperbacks. Shall I continue or can even you begin to see what I am saying?

Just for the slow ones in the crowd, I don't care who they get to write comics as long as they get people who CAN write good, timely, and consistent comics. Writers with no experience in the field need to learn how to work on comics and there is only one Editor at Marvel that I have any faith in at all. (That's Tom Brevoort, by the way, and even he's seeming to have interesting problems, if you go by Mike Grell's account.)

QCCBob

02-19-2003, 11:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
Go on, Bob, keep deluding yourself that Straszynski's run is worse than the previous run in terms of sales...LOL.<hr /></blockquote>One more time, CAL. Try reading a post. I NEVER said that. I said it's been dropping and you posted numbers that showed it dropping until #50. The delusions around here all yours.

comicsareliterature

02-20-2003, 02:10 PM

Hello.

To QCCBOB: Lol...this is why I love debates with you, Bob. You are totally amusing. Read your own posts to see the tone in them, Bob. I am not the only one who took exception to what you were trying to get across, at first. I think I finally figured out why you post the way you do. You like to avoid making direct statements so that you can always come back later and claim you were misinterpreted. Beautiful, in a high school debate sense, futile at higher levels of education. I think I am starting to see why it amuses me sooo much to debate things with you...very reminiscent of my work (which I love). :)

Out of curiosity, Bob, how much DO you know about Marvel Editorial techniques? I mean, you harp on them so much, and compare them so unfavourably to DC Editorial techniques, so I have to wonder where you get your inside view of the situation. Especailly when you consider that the majority of Marvel titles outsell the majority of DC titels. Lol. I think we are going off topic again, but I enjoy having you amuse me... :)

QCCBob

02-20-2003, 07:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
You like to avoid making direct statements so that you can always come back later and claim you were misinterpreted.
SNIP
Out of curiosity, Bob, how much DO you know about Marvel Editorial techniques? <hr /></blockquote>And you switch subjects like mad and avoid virtually any direct discussion of the original point, preferring to bring up side issues. It would help if you'd quit imagining/inventing my 'tone' and just read the post. I made a very direct statement (and re-posted it) and you still act like I didn't make a direct statement.

Amuse yourself. I made the point that certain writers are like night and day when you compare their DC work to their Marvel work or Top Cow pre-Marvel to post-Marvel. That goes to editorial. Figuring that out would require you to actually read my post, but the odds of that are pretty slim.

comicsareliterature

02-21-2003, 11:00 AM

Hello.

To QCCBOB:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Amuse yourself. I made the point that certain writers are like night and day when you compare their DC work to their Marvel work or Top Cow pre-Marvel to post-Marvel. That goes to editorial. Figuring that out would require you to actually read my post, but the odds of that are pretty slim. <hr /></blockquote>Hey, you finally complimented Marvel!!! You are right, the work JMS does for Marvel being quite consistent DOES go to editorial. Wow, you just totally contradicted your previous statement that Marvel Editorial does not know how to handle the non-comic writing talent it recruits in a single sentence (well, 2 sentences, actually...lol). I guess you can learn. As far as your opinion about Geoff Johns and his DC vs Marvel work goes, it is just that, an opinion. Nice, but everybody has one (and almost 15 000 more people feel that the Avengers by Johns is better reading than JSA by Johns, if you go by the sales figures). It is not a fact that can support your argument in any manner. Neither can your opinion that Spiderman is worse now than it was during the Clone saga. Again, it is just an opinion. Are you not the one who always wants to stay with the facts?

Try again, Bub... :)

comicsareliterature

02-21-2003, 11:30 AM

Hello.

To QCCBOB: Since you seem to have forgotten your original point, let me remind you:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The problem with Marvel ain't gonna get solved by bringing in more people who don't know what they are doing, Mr. J and Joe Q have that spot sewed up tight. They need someone who knows how to do good comic books on time. <hr /></blockquote>So, again, my point is that 3 of the 5 guys that came from the film media DO know how to do good comics on time. I have never ignored this important point you made way back in your first post, Bob, I have addressed it throughout our discussion. Now, do you want to look back, do some reading, and try again?

JMS, G. Johns, and J. Loebs ARE good writers who consistently produce well written, high selling books for Marvel. Actually, their Marvel books usually outsell their work for other publishers (except when you add Jim Lee to the mix... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Kevin Smith is always consistent about being late (obviously NOT a good thing by any standards), but still writes relatively good comics that always sell well. Zimmerman...ugh, even I find it hard to be positive on this one...sigh. However, 3 of 5 consistent AND top selling creators from the film media is partially why Marvel is looking in that direction for more talent. Quite understandable, no?

QCCBob

02-21-2003, 07:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
JMS, G. Johns, and J. Loebs ARE good writers who consistently produce well written, high selling books for Marvel.<hr /></blockquote>As usual, your perception/imagination bears no resemblance to the facts.

JMS on time?
#44 scheduled ship date 8/14, shipped 8/28.
#45 scheduled ship date 9/11, shipped 9/25
#46 scheduled ship date 10/9, shipped 11/6 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
#47 scheduled ship date 11/13, shipped 11/20
#48 scheduled ship date 12/11, shipped 12/226
#49 scheduled ship date 1/15, shipped 1/22
#50 scheduled ship date 2/19, shipped 2/26

Sorry, CAL. He hasn't had an issue ship on time in the last SEVEN. The closest he came is a week late, three times.

Loeb's great, but where's Spider-Man Blue? Is it his fault or Tim Sale? Maybe proper editorial oversight would fix that little problem?

And if memory serves, the only one of the guys you keep listing that actually broke in at Marvel was Kevin Smith, the worst offender of the bunch.

Thank God Johns signed an exclusive with DC before he could pick up bad habits like JMS!!!!

QCCBob

02-21-2003, 09:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
Hello.

To QCCBOB: Since you seem to have forgotten your original point, let me remind you:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The problem with Marvel ain't gonna get solved by bringing in more people who don't know what they are doing, Mr. J and Joe Q have that spot sewed up tight. They need someone who knows how to do good comic books on time. <hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>Wait a minute, I think I figured it out. You misread my meaning. The phrase 'more people' was not meant in reference to all writers from outside comics. It was meant directly as a slam on Joe and Mr. J meaning that rookies with no experience and no proper guidance would be as lost at writing comics as Joe and Mr J are at running a comic company.

Maybe there's a Canadian to English translator or a program that can diagram sentences for you, CAL. :p

comicsareliterature

02-22-2003, 06:32 PM

Hello.

To QCCBOB: Hi, Bob... :) Hmmmm...I thought that JMS had produced 21 issues in 24 months. Is that not true? If it is, does that not mean that he is on-time, relatively speaking? Also, are the delays due to his writing not being done on-time, or some other reason? Let me know. Clearly, I was discussing the on-time issue in terms of the amount of issues produced over the number of months that JMS has worked on Spiderman. Out of curiosity, if a comic is monthly, and it comes out monthly, but at different times of the month than originally solicited, is it not still monthly? If it is, does that not mean it is on-time? Yeesh, methinks we need to define exactly what we mean by on-time...<headache approaching>. If we want to use the solicitation dates as the sole reference for timeliness, then I will have to defer part of the argument to you since JMS' run has not consistently followed the solicitation dates. If we want to use number of issues produced each year versus number of months in each year, then I will hold my ground. I was arguing more from a fan perspective in terms of getting issues per year, rather than dealing with solicitation dates. Sorry for the confusion.

I never claimed that Johns, Loebs, and JMS broke in with Marvel. I simply listed them as great writers who consistently sell comics and produce them on-time. The fact that JMS has produced 21 issues in 24 months seemed to confirm that he is relatively on-time. I somehow imagine that you (and I) wish Ultimates were that regular.

Ah, the disingenous obfuscations continue:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Wait a minute, I think I figured it out. You misread my meaning. The phrase 'more people' was not meant in reference to all writers from outside comics. It was meant directly as a slam on Joe and Mr. J meaning that rookies with no experience and no proper guidance would be as lost at writing comics as Joe and Mr J are at running a comic company.

Maybe there's a Canadian to English translator or a program that can diagram sentences for you, CAL. <hr /></blockquote>First, you tell me to stop interpreting your words, then you expect me to infer meanings not present in the post. Bob, I clearly read your meaning based on what you said in the TWO paragraphs from your first post. Show me where in that post we can find this new meaning you want to attribute to it, please. "More people who don't know what they are doing", based on how you wrote it, rather than on how you currently want to explain it, directly relates to the people who have come into comics previously and their "poor" performance (that being YOUR opinion). Believe me, Bob, I know how to read, I just wish you knew how to write. Maybe there is a place you can go to where you can learn to put arguments into proper sequences, Bob. You know, like high school or something??? :p :p

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Look at the track record so far. You can basically have a part time job that you can do whenever you feel like it as long as you can get Marvel a little press. Do the first issue like DD the Target and never worry about finishing the series or get a producing gig on Showtime and screw over two comic companies, retailers, and fans. Gee, thanks! We need more writers like Zimmerman and the part-timers who are just here until they have something better to do like we need a hole in the head. Now, if she can get someone like Brad Meltzer who comes in and does the job he's supposed to, I'm all for it. Sadly, I doubt that's what is going to happen.

The problem with Marvel ain't gonna get solved by bringing in more people who don't know what they are doing, Mr. J and Joe Q have that spot sewed up tight. They need someone who knows how to do good comic books on time. Isn't the problem pretty obvious when they hire a talent scout/casting director type as an 'editor'? <hr /></blockquote>Actually, Bob, I think you need to qualify what you consider a rookie writer in light of your last post's attempt to clarify things. Wouldn't ALL writers who are new to comics be rookies in terms of writing comics? Is that what you meant? Hmmm...could you mean rookie writers to the entire writing field? You know, you have totally ruined your first post with that last one, Bob. Please, try to get the whole argument written in one cohesive manner. Start from the beginning, please. WHY do you object to the hiring of Ms. Focarile? Please, post clearly!

QCCBob

02-22-2003, 08:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
If it is, does that not mean that he is on-time, relatively speaking? <hr /></blockquote>BWAH HA HA! OK, CAL, he's 'relatively' on time. I guess dropping a month isn't really late as long as the next issue only misses by a week. You give your students a lot of chances for extra credit, don't you?

OK, let's see if we can simplify the whole situation to a simple statement or two...

The issue I brought up is that getting rookie, i.e. never having worked in the comic book field before, writers without having someone who knows how to write comics to teach them is a problem.

Also, there has been a continuous problem with certain 'part time' writers getting their books done and, coincidentally, most of those writers work in other fields as their full time or priority jobs.

My concern is that getting more writers who don't know how to produce good comics on time for the sake of publicity is very likely not a good thing.

Is that simple enough, CAL?

P.S. If you look at the original post that you quoted above closely, you will see that I separated the part about specific offenders by starting a new paragraph before I blasted your heroes. Many times, a new paragraph is used to indicate a switch in the subject.

P.P.S. Shockingly enough, once again you missed my point about the writers and where they broke in. The point is the ones who are on time or 'relatively' on time started someplace other than Marvel. The one who is the worst at producing timely work is the one who started doing non-creator owned stuff with Marvel. It was meant to imply that Kevin Smith got bad habits from Marvel as opposed to the others who started elsewhere.