GOOD OR BAD? FRANK TIERI TALKS JUGGERNAUT [Archive]

View Full Version : GOOD OR BAD? FRANK TIERI TALKS JUGGERNAUT

MattBrady

10-20-2006, 01:12 PM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/NEWXCAL013_cov_col.jpg" border="0" align="right">The Juggernaut, previously one of the most formidable bad guys in the Marvel Universe, has been a whiny bitch for years.

There. We said it.

And while we only said it, New Excalibur writer Frank Tieri is looking to do something about it in the upcoming three part arc (beginning with November’s #13), “Unredeemed.”

We spoke with Tieri about the character, his bitchiness, and some of the possible upcoming changes…

Newsarama: First off, why the Juggernaut? What's the attraction for the character with you? Sell me - if he's not been portrayed as one-dimensional, he's got this weird, don't ask, please God, I don't want to know, relationship with Black Tom Cassidy. What makes you look at a character like that and think, "Yeah - that one's for me!"?

Frank Tieri: I like villains. I like tough guy characters. And this is a villain tough guy character, so you figure it out.

Or should I say, used to be a villain tough guy character. Now? Hell, he isn’t a villain and he’s sure not as tough anymore. In fact, because of this, a vile, disgusting word has entered the comic book lexicon. It is a word I have vowed to completely and utterly destroy by the time my run is over.

That word is Huggernaut.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/NXCal13_01.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/01_t.jpg" border="0" align="left"></a>Look, whether or not I turn Cain back into a villain again by the time this thing is all done with—which a lot of people think I am—one thing is certain… after Unredeemed, you’ll never be able to refer to Cain Marko as the Huggernaut ever again. And that’s a promise.

NRAMA: So what about Black Tom? Will he be appearing in your arc? It’s pretty much the law if you’re going to do a Juggernaut storyline, you know…

FT: So don’t be so surprised when he pops up in issue 13 then, wise guy.

Now, getting to what you implied earlier about Cain and Tom’s relationship… ya know, I never really did get that. Why is it that two guys can’t be close in popular entertainment without somebody assuming everything’s gone all “Brokeback”? Can’t two guys just be pals anymore? And it’s not just here, we see questions raised about other famous duos all the time: The Lone Ranger and Tonto. Butch and Sundance. Batman and Robin. Sam and Frodo.

…

Ok, scratch that last one. Even I thought we were about to see some Hobbit on Hobbit action on Mount Doom for a minute there…

Look, I’ve always seen most of those characters as being more than best friends-- they’re like brothers. And that’s how I see Tom and Cain being and that’s how they’re portrayed here. Somebody once said “A friend helps you move furniture. A best friend helps you move a body.” That’s Tom and Cain to a t. As we’ll see in this arc, Tom knows where all of Cain’s bodies are buried—and that’s mainly because chances are he helped Cain move quite a few of them himself.

So folks, I’d focus my gay-dar elsewhere, if I were you. Like on Ice Man, for instance. I mean, even friggin’ Family Guy figured that one out, for crissakes.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/NXCal13_02_3.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/02-03_t.jpg" border="0" align="right"></a>NRAMA: Alright, alright…consider me chastised. So - catching up with where Cain is at the start of your arc...he's still on the side of the angels?

FT: He is. And I really believe that’s where he genuinely wants to be right now. But that’s the thing with life though, isn’t it? Just because we want something doesn’t mean we get it.

And that’s sort of what bugs me about Cain’s whole “transformation”—and it’s something that I address in this arc. Cain was welcomed to the “side of angels” as you put it, a bit too easily, for my taste. So Cain’s all sorry now and all is forgiven? Um… hello? Cain’s actually killed people, folks—and in the real world that means you can stick your “sorry” up your ass because you’re gonna end up rotting in jail, not running around in England making goo goo eyes at Dazzler. I mean, you don’t see them letting Charles Manson out on good behavior and having him join the Green Berets because he happens to be good with a knife, do you?

NRAMA: Power-wise, he's not where he used to be, right?

FT: Not even close. The Juggernaut was one of those villains that could go head to head with the likes of Thor and the Hulk. He was the guy when you saw his name in the solicits of your favorite book, you knew your favorite hero was going to catch a beating worthy of a red headed step child.

But now? Well, all you have to do is take a look at the fine Jim Califiore artwork we’ve provided to see he gets his big helmeted ass handed to him by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays of bad guys, the Wrecking Crew.

At this rate, a bitch slapping from Batroc should arrive any day now…

NRAMA: And lay him out, cold. Speaking of the Wrecking Crew, how do they see Cain now that he’s switched sides?

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/NXCal13_08.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/08_t.jpg" border="0" align="left"></a>FT: You know, this is really something that I wanted to touch on in this story—how the “villain community” views all these characters that have switched sides over the years. And the Wrecking Crew, who really are representative of the “working class” of bad guys, is the perfect group of guys to take their temperature on this subject.

Cutting to the chase, they see Cain and others like him as sell outs. And they intend to make an example out of him.

NRAMA: What's responsible for his loss of power?

FT: Cyttorak, plain and simple. He ain’t too keen on Cain putting on a white hat these days, ya know?

I mean, I think people forget sometimes that Cyttorak is a demonic being. And as such, if you’re going to be his agent on Earth, you better believe you’re going to have to do some truly awful things to keep that position—and the power that comes with it. We’re going to explore how awful some of those things have been—and would Cain be willing to do them again to regain the power he’s lost?

Whatever the answers to those questions are, I will say this will all lead Cain back to the Temple of Cyttorak—where the Juggernaut was born—and a confrontation with Cyttorak himself… amongst others. And you know where Cain goes, the rest of Excalibur won’t be too far behind.

NRAMA: So I guess Cain’s loss of power doesn’t sit too well with him. Your story is called "Unredeemed" after all...

FT: How would it sit with you? Let’s say you could lift 250 pounds in the gym. And then one day, you can only lift 100 or even 50? Wouldn’t that affect you? Wouldn’t that affect your confidence, affect how you carry yourself, how you deal with others and with situations—in other words, wouldn’t that affect who you are?

One of the themes of my run here has been addiction. Wisdom’s cigarettes, the Black Knight’s sword, etc—and now Cain’s power. And for those of you who don’t think power can be addicting, ask Barry Bonds or Raphael Palmero or any of these countless of other athletes who risk their health, careers, legacies, etc just so they can get that extra rush when they hit a baseball farther than anybody else.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/NXCal13_21.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Excalibur/Juggernaut/21_t.jpg" border="0" align="right"></a>Now, let’s put it in the context of being the Juggernaut… how much of a rush do you get from lifting a mountain? Or smashing a building? Or punching out Colossus?

And now ask yourself—how far would you go to get that feeling back? How far will Cain go?

NRAMA: Ok, so obviously, Cain's tempted here to go back...but aren’t there temptations from the other side as well? After all, a life with heroes means not being on the run 24/7; not having to fight all the time...

FT: Well, that’s really what Cain has to weigh here—the power he had or the life he has now. Cain likes where he is now, and I think that all things being equal, he’d stay exactly where he is. But the question he comes to ask himself is… is it all worth it? It’s where the title of the storyline—Unredeemed -- comes into play. Here he is, doing the “right thing” in trying to be a hero and he’s losing the means for him to be a hero anyway—so what is he really accomplishing here? This all brings us to the biggest question of the whole arc-- can someone like Cain ever truly redeem himself for the things he’s done? Can nothing he do ever be enough? Or will he forever be unredeemed?

NRAMA: I know you’ve hinted that you’re going to reveal some fairly big things about Cain Marko’s past and that of the Juggernaut mythos itself. So tease away, my good man...tease away.

FT: Ok, in no particular order, consider yourself teased:

--We’ve always been under the assumption that Cain Marko was the first, original, Juggernaut. We’ll learn that’s not necessarily the case. (I’ve always found it strange that Cytorrak—a centuries old being—would wait until the Korean War to get himself an agent on Earth, don’t you?)

-- We’ll learn what one actually must do to become the Juggernaut. (And believe me, it’s a Hell of a lot more difficult than just touching the gem)

-- We’ll learn why exactly, out of all the X-Men’s enemies, Onslaught chose the Juggernaut to go after first. And if you think it’s just because Xavier didn’t like his step brother, you’re dead wrong

-- And finally, we’ll learn some of the things Cain’s done as the Juggernaut. And believe me folks, it ain’t pretty

Bevbos

10-20-2006, 01:23 PM

Jeez. This may get me to pick up New Excalibur. Who woulda thunk it?

Don't fail me, Tieri!!!

sol

10-20-2006, 01:28 PM

Not a big Excalibur fan, but....I am a big fan of the classic, 'only show up once a year to kick somebody's candy-ass' Juggernaut. Bring it on, Frank.

HeX111

10-20-2006, 01:33 PM

REALLY happy that I've been reading this... Tieri has been a breath of fresh air... and I'm REALLY starting to dig his X-Men related work... his work on New Excalibur has been just plain awesome...

BriGuy

10-20-2006, 01:33 PM

I'm sold. Sounds and looks great!

Razak

10-20-2006, 01:41 PM

Out of sight! I'll be the first to admit, I actually like Cain as a reformed villain walking the side o' the angels. What I haven't liked, however, has been his depowering, and have been wishing he would get back to his post-Onslaught strength levels.
Ok, in no particular order, consider yourself teased:

--We’ve always been under the assumption that Cain Marko was the first, original, Juggernaut. We’ll learn that’s not necessarily the case. (I’ve always found it strange that Cytorrak—a centuries old being—would wait until the Korean War to get himself an agent on Earth, don’t you?)

-- We’ll learn what one actually must do to become the Juggernaut. (And believe me, it’s a Hell of a lot more difficult than just touching the gem)
I wonder if Frank will touch on any of the other Exemplars or the Wager of the Octessence.

Johnny Triangles

10-20-2006, 01:43 PM

Just curious, HAS Juggernaut really killed anyone?

bossofbam

10-20-2006, 01:44 PM

I hope Cain sticks on the side of the angels. I've always been a Juggy fan, and loved it when he finally joined the X-Men. Yes, he was a criminal, but he was never evil. Just pissed off and making really poor choices. I actually think it'd be cool if he finally got together with his dream girl Dazzler (since the Longshot romance seems to have been forgotton).

RoiVampire

10-20-2006, 01:44 PM

SOLD mother effing SOLD

holy lord i love me some juggernaut

tfitz

10-20-2006, 01:47 PM

Great article! I stopped collecting Excalibur after about 5 issues, but this arc I will def. be picking up.

Mr Wesley

10-20-2006, 01:56 PM

If nothing else, I can always count on Tieri to give a great interview.

...now if only we could get him out of the X-House.

Michael Hawk

10-20-2006, 01:57 PM

I'm both worried and excited about this. I really like Juggernaut as a hero but, like Tieri said, he's been pussified so I'm hoping that Tieri will make him a bad ass again but still a hero. Also, I want to see Juggie fight some non-X-Men-related characters. It would be hillarious to me to see him go through Spidey's villains the same way a bowling ball goes through pins.

Jack Burton

10-20-2006, 02:00 PM

Just curious, HAS Juggernaut really killed anyone?

I imagine being a merc with a penchant for destroying buildings/neighborhoods he must have.

TCJohnson

10-20-2006, 02:10 PM

One of the things that I liked about Juggernaught when he was a bad guy is that he was not completely evil. He was a school yard bully with increadible powers and severe anger management problems, not a psychotic who liked killing people. I remember Juggernaught in Claremont's X-Men. Even then he went goo goo eyed over Dazzler, and another time he realized what he was doing was putting kids in danger and backed off a bit.

Ye Olde Iowa

10-20-2006, 02:14 PM

Having Juggernaut as a mainstay hero is one of the reasons I haven't picked up Excalibur. He just screams "villain" and I can't take him seriously as a hero. Also, I hate Dazzler. That alone will keep me away from a book that was actually one of my favorites when I first started reading comics (does anyone remember the Excalibur vs. X-Men one-shot? That was awesome).

You know what will bring me back for an arc or so?

A story premise like this. Bravo Tieri! Bring on the destruction, I say.

urbnswshbklr

10-20-2006, 02:17 PM

i have picked up this recent run of excalibuer, if anything for the art, though im not really fond of the turn to califore's art, too angular for me...

but this really has me sticking to it, at least through this story arc...

and if juggy returns to his former power level, we better get a "Don't you know who i am? out of it....

Mr Wesley

10-20-2006, 02:19 PM

I imagine being a merc with a penchant for destroying buildings/neighborhoods he must have.Yeah, but with Marvel going on record saying that the rampaging Hulk has never killed anybody, you never can tell.

Ragnarokker

10-20-2006, 02:20 PM

BamaRainbow

10-20-2006, 02:26 PM

I imagine being a merc with a penchant for destroying buildings/neighborhoods he must have.

But, but, but.....do you mean that all those buildings have actually had people in them that we didn't see or that the heroes weren't able to rescue? ;)

Sorry for the bit of sarcasm, but it just seemed warranted. I mean, why is it that when the "good guys" knock down buildings (even accidentally) they always seem to be completely empty but if a "bad guy" knocks down a building there's always at least one "innocent bystander" (and/or bystander's helpless pet) trapped in the building?

Kolimar

10-20-2006, 02:26 PM

Frank Tieri: I like villains. I like tough guy characters. And this is a villain tough guy character, so you figure it out.

Or should I say, used to be a villain tough guy character. Now? Hell, he isn’t a villain and he’s sure not as tough anymore. In fact, because of this, a vile, disgusting word has entered the comic book lexicon. It is a word I have vowed to completely and utterly destroy by the time my run is over.

That word is Huggernaut.

Heh :D <w>

Kolimar

10-20-2006, 02:32 PM

Now, getting to what you implied earlier about Cain and Tom’s relationship… ya know, I never really did get that. Why is it that two guys can’t be close in popular entertainment without somebody assuming everything’s gone all “Brokeback”? Can’t two guys just be pals anymore?

Agreed.

And it’s not just here, we see questions raised about other famous duos all the time: The Lone Ranger and Tonto. Butch and Sundance. Batman and Robin. Sam and Frodo.

…

Ok, scratch that last one. Even I thought we were about to see some Hobbit on Hobbit action on Mount Doom for a minute there…

*snort* :p :D

DLTActor130

10-20-2006, 02:35 PM

Helsturm

10-20-2006, 02:37 PM

It's about time.

Xeero

10-20-2006, 02:42 PM

Eh, I guess I'll give it a try.

Justin M. Campbell

10-20-2006, 02:48 PM

Juggy good

http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/5d/images.art.com/images/-/The-Man-Show---Juggies--C10113593.jpeg

Juggy Good INDEED

Kolimar

10-20-2006, 02:54 PM

FT: Not even close. The Juggernaut was one of those villains that could go head to head with the likes of Thor and the Hulk. He was the guy when you saw his name in the solicits of your favorite book, you knew your favorite hero was going to catch a beating worthy of a red headed step child.

But now? Well, all you have to do is take a look at the fine Jim Califiore artwork we’ve provided to see he gets his big helmeted ass handed to him by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays of bad guys, the Wrecking Crew.

At this rate, a bitch slapping from Batroc should arrive any day now…

HAH!!! :p :D

ElijahSnowFan

10-20-2006, 02:59 PM

holy crap, i never thought i'd say this in my life:

Excalibur's going on the pull list.

mac b

10-20-2006, 03:00 PM

The wrecker... out of jail again. Any explanation for that?

Bleh

10-20-2006, 03:04 PM

Also, I want to see Juggie fight some non-X-Men-related characters. It would be hillarious to me to see him go through Spidey's villains the same way a bowling ball goes through pins.

The Main Marvel universe can make do with all it has. For the past 3 years 90% of the attention has been on it...

It's also using similar techniques that the X-titles originally used to gain popularity.

Maybe it's just me... but the last thing I want (in a time the MMU is getting alot of focus) is the New Avengers picking off good X-Men characters.

I am MODOK

10-20-2006, 03:09 PM

I've really been enjoying Tieri's New Excalibur work so far...

Kolimar

10-20-2006, 03:22 PM

I wonder if Frank will touch on any of the other Exemplars or the Wager of the Octessence.

Good question.

kitty_tc

10-20-2006, 03:29 PM

I wonder if Frank will touch on any of the other Exemplars or the Wager of the Octessence.

Does that mean by extension he'll touch on Balzaac?

(eww *chuckles* sorry, couldn't resist)

JadeFontaine

10-20-2006, 03:37 PM

I totally agree with Frank here. I remember when I it took Spider-Man and X-Force to take down Juggernaut. And! I remember when Wolverine basically fed Colossus to Juggernaut to get his ass kicked. Now... pfft. Juggernaut is a big sissy. I mean I am really in favor of the bad guy becoming a good guy. And I like the idea of Juggernaut being a good guy. But, if it is a choice between the Juggernaut being tough and bad, or a sissy and good... well then bad is best.

I liked they way they handled most of Juggy's transformation to good guy but in the world of comics it was still too fast. I loved his attitude and how he did many things begrudgingly. (i.e. sees and knocked into orbit but sticks his arm out to stop him - he isn't gentle and doesn't even think to try and be - his comment about the save? - "What?!? I saved him didn't I - din't let him go splat." - something close to that anyway) That I would like to see back - give him his edge back. Let him do good things while his methods are still questionable. Let him stop a villain by throwing another villain at the first one taking them both out. Sure there are broken bones but fight is brought to and quick stop. :)

Bird Flu Man

10-20-2006, 03:39 PM

Really looking forward to this. Cytorrak (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/cyttor.htm) has always been a favorite of mine. Hopefully we'll also get a glimpse of Xorak the Outcast (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/xorakcrimsoncosmos.htm) or Juggernaut's alienated brethren the Exemplars (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/exemplar.htm).

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/cyttor2.jpg

BubbaKanoosh

10-20-2006, 03:41 PM

Bad Juggernaut > Good Juggernaut

please make him a villain. please please please.

Kolimar

10-20-2006, 03:50 PM

If nothing else, I can always count on Tieri to give a great interview.

Yep. :D

...now if only we could get him out of the X-House.

He's done Iron Man, Hercules, and Underworld. That said, I agree he's a very good writer and he should get more chances outside the "X-Box". *groan* :p :D

Mellotron

10-20-2006, 03:51 PM

I actually liked how he became a good guy. I can understand it too. His relationship with Xavier helps him out in that area and what happened to him with Onslaught. His relationship with Sammy was actually kind of cool. Most badasses still have a soft side so why not.

My hopes? He gets his power back, stays a good guy, but still has to do some gruesome stuff for Cyttorak to be happy. Basically, he starts offing the villains and when Captain Britain yells at him he just goes, "What? Fights over." Something we've seen before slightly. Oh, and he gets together with TJ, basically his new soft spot. That would make my year.

Mick

10-20-2006, 04:10 PM

holy crap, i never thought i'd say this in my life:

Excalibur's going on the pull list.

And on mine too. Maybe. Perhaps I'll get the trade. If the reviews are good.

immortus

10-20-2006, 04:13 PM

Yeah, but with Marvel going on record saying that the rampaging Hulk has never killed anybody, you never can tell.

Hulk has killed people. It's a major plot point in Illuminati.

Tazwert

10-20-2006, 04:16 PM

I hope I get a Huggernaut for Christmas.

Maybe a Tickle Me Huggernaut.

:D

shifty

10-20-2006, 04:27 PM

Wait, Black Knight has been appearing regularly in Excalibur? Does he kick ass, take names and brood like the good ol' (Harras) days?

And a villainous Juggernaut is always better than a weak-ass bitch Juggernaut.

Ann Nichols

10-20-2006, 04:34 PM

Personally, I prefer the Juggernaut as a good guy. His acceptance at the Institute wasn't quite as difficult to believe as the acceptance of Mystique. After all, Charles wanted to be on good terms with his older stepbrother and the Institute belongs to Charles.

By the way, isn't Cain in violation of his parole by working in England instead of Rogue's team? (On the other hand, the US of A is probably just as happy having Cain across the pond. He's their headache, not ours! )

TheLizard207

10-20-2006, 04:40 PM

count me in starting #13 then

Liliaeth

10-20-2006, 05:05 PM

I always thought they handled the reformation of the Juggernaut in a slightly unrealistic manner. It happened a little too quickly for my taste.

I thought that it was somewhat similar to the reformation of Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The villain was temporarily in need of assistance from his enemies, and in the process discovered through his love for one of said enemies he could be capable of extraordinary things. I always thought the most telling point of Spike's transformation was at the beginning of season six when he was protecting Dawn. Buffy was gone. Spike had no reason to continue fighting the good fight, but for some reason something had changed within him. He was never TRULY redeemed, though, even by the time he popped up in Angel. He was still fighting the evil in him even after he earned a soul.

Wow. Geek out moment.

Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that it's about time that someone explored Juggernaut in this manner. When Sammy died I understood his motivations. He was still reeling from the loss, and he got caught up in the wave of acceptance thrown his way. Now that the loss of Sammy has worn off I think it'll be interesting to see how he reacts to Tom (his best friend that's basically responsible for Cain's turn as a good guy).

I'm really excited about this arc. I think that it's great that they've tried to give Juggernaut his own identity.

Actually the mistake you're making about Spike, is that his redemption didn't start in s4, it started in s2, Becoming. And even before that.

It started when Spike chose to save Drusilla from Buffy, instead of killing a bunch of kids. When he put love ahead of evil. The second he did that, he set his first step on the way to redemption.

It's one of the reasons I find Angel's redemption so unbelievable. I mean, the guy, gets a soul, sits on his ass and does nothing for a hundred years and all of a sudden we're supposed to believe he's a good guy just cause he got the hots for a 15 year old girl?

ZEBULON

10-20-2006, 05:08 PM

Marvel: putting the character back in comics.

Mithel

10-20-2006, 06:22 PM

The only thing that could make this arc better is if it were titled, "Die, Huggernaut, Die!"

And no, that's not German.

leafinsectma

10-20-2006, 06:53 PM

Damn you Tieri! Why do you always have to give such entertaining and enticing interviews? Now I gotta pick this up like the rest of your stuff :p

Its kinda nice to see some villains become heroes (I imagine some people would get sick of villainy after a while and would wan to be praised and popular and stuff) but if Juggy isn't one of the most powerful guys in the MU then he's not Juggy. Whether hero or villain, he should be a force to be reckoned with and its good to see that being exlored.

Also looking forward to the reasoning behind the whole Onslaught thing :)

ghostly1

10-20-2006, 06:56 PM

Just curious, HAS Juggernaut really killed anyone?

I vaguely recall Chuck Austen insisting that he didn't. I'm not 100% sure if he put it into an issue (the one where She-Hulk represents him would be the obvious choice) or just mentioned it in an interview, though.

Of course, even if it is canon, nothing's stopping Marvel from retconning it (or reretconning it). It is a bit unbelievable that he never did. On the other hand, I want him to be a hero because he's far more interesting that way than as a villain.

So, is the Excavator in this version of the Wrecking Crew? He should be! Scrilla fo 'rilla!

New Way

10-20-2006, 07:14 PM

Juggernaut is a villian in my mind and always will be:mad:

He was way better as kick but and take names villian then as a sissy boy hero.

Cain Marko

10-20-2006, 09:09 PM

Just curious, HAS Juggernaut really killed anyone?

Yes. He's killed masses of people and was completely remorseless about it. It's been said few in the universe would be capable of orchestrating the kind of wholesale slaughter he does.

Bullet_Train

10-20-2006, 09:10 PM

Well, first, Juggernaut already fought and beat the hell out of Cyttorak himself in Mexico. And second, while yes, Sammy's death did keep him on the straight and narrow, it was Black Tom that killed Sammy. So I dont think it should be Black Tom who persuades him, plant a seed, yes, but I dont think the man who killed a friend of his can have that much sway over him still. As well, I agree that Cain should get powered up again and still stay good, I like the idea of him as a hero. He explained the reason he was an asshole was jealousy. He was jealous of Charles and he took the power of Cyttorak to be more powerful than Charles. So he's a bad guy, but I dont consider him evil, he may have done evil things as a result of being an ass, but so did Rouge, and Wolverine.

Jeremy Williams

10-20-2006, 09:11 PM

Like the rest of what was said, let me say: Finally!

Marvel should put better writers on their top villains and show why they are the best scariest villains in comics. Not the wusses we've seen with all this becoming hero crap. They need someone that will do what Geoff Johns did the Flash Rogues Gallery.

Not only Juggernaut should become a badass villain again, but make him important in the scheme of things. As dangerous as Dr. Doom. He shouldn't just be just a bully too, he should be a force of nature like Hulk. Meaning when he does something, it's a threat for mankind and everybody is talking about it. It's like a somebody is throwing a nuclear bomb somewhere and all World leaders are having an emergency meeting.

InDaMix

10-20-2006, 09:12 PM

Who has he killed? Did it happen off panel? Never seen that Juggie get all gansta and actually kill somebody. I seen him try sure, but not actually kill.

DrBat

10-20-2006, 09:19 PM

While I think he should be more edgier, Tieri is making it look like he's going to make Juggernaut worse than he is.

Cain Marko

10-20-2006, 09:42 PM

As well, I agree that Cain should get powered up again and still stay good, I like the idea of him as a hero. He explained the reason he was an asshole was jealousy. He was jealous of Charles and he took the power of Cyttorak to be more powerful than Charles.

The jealousy over Xavier thing has been pretty much nonexistent for over 30 years now. And as flashbacks have shown, Cain was a bad seed before he ever even met Xavier. None of Cain's actions have anything to do with jealousy except for his trying to kill Xavier. Which he hasn't done since the 70s if not earlier. He does what he does because he's just a nasty SOB.

Who has he killed? Did it happen off panel? Never seen that Juggie get all gansta and actually kill somebody. I seen him try sure, but not actually kill.

He's killed alot on panel and I'm sure many more off-panel. This is a guy who used toss buses full of people into walls like it was a water balloon. For that matter he'd publically committed a murderous rampage right in front of TV news cameras shortly before he joined the X-Men. Then apparently went to sleep one day and woke up as a cute and cuddly hero as though nothing ever happened.

kurupted

10-20-2006, 10:02 PM

im sold, i just hope he doesn't revert back to superpowered bad guy who'll appear in an issue and beat the crap out of your heroes. its great he's being brought back to his old status but id personally like to see more depth with him

redskindavyd

10-21-2006, 01:40 AM

Out of sight! I'll be the first to admit, I actually like Cain as a reformed villain walking the side o' the angels. What I haven't liked, however, has been his depowering, and have been wishing he would get back to his post-Onslaught strength levels.
I wonder if Frank will touch on any of the other Exemplars or the Wager of the Octessence.

Agreed, not too fond of his being depowered, but I like the "good" Juggernaut.

khuxford

10-21-2006, 03:49 AM

Jeez. This may get me to pick up New Excalibur. Who woulda thunk it?

Don't fail me, Tieri!!!

You and me both. Juggernaut's been one of the few Marvel villains that instantly draws my attention...

Don Mega

10-21-2006, 06:44 AM

Oh damn! I got to buy this.

Never thought I´d buy New Excalibur!

JRCarter

10-21-2006, 11:27 AM

So, is the Excavator in this version of the Wrecking Crew? He should be! Scrilla fo 'rilla!

I think getting beat down by the Wrecking Crew would be bad enough without some skinny little punk with a shovel...

As for Juggernaut, I don't think I wanna see him back as a villain. I think he'd work best as an anti-hero.

Wellness

10-21-2006, 12:13 PM

Villian, although he shouldn't be used for at least a year so when he does come back it will be old fashion beat down on whoever he is facing. Hell, it would be great to see him powered up and go against a mystical opponent like Ghost Rider or Dr. Strange.

Doc Rebel

10-21-2006, 02:32 PM

Juggernaut has always been one of my topfavorite ultra-strong bad guys, just a notch below Abomination!
And the Wrecking Crew is my #1 villain-team! Indeed their workingclass mentality, their down-to-earth-ness, they are what they are and don't try to be something else. I'm also hoping for the right writer who sees their potential and bring them more into the spotlights! Their uniqueness lies in the fact that they share a single-super power divided by four, and how they use that makes them interesting (if used right): Bulldozer is sort of a 'Juggernaut-lite' :) in the sense that he becomes fairly unstoppable when he starts to move; Piledriver who has almost all his super-strength concentrated in his ams & fists, I want to see him perpetually hammering his opponents down, no other tactics just piledriving; Thunderball who can mentally control his ironball & chain, he is a frustrated genius who failed as a scientist, wants all the power of the W.C. for himself, but in the end always loses to the Wrecker; The Wrecker, he has the power and that makes him the boss, and he likes that, the charactertraits of the W.C. I mentioned personify in him, I also like it that something as plain as a crowbar is a magical weapon!

shifty

10-21-2006, 06:13 PM

So, is the Excavator in this version of the Wrecking Crew? He should be! Scrilla fo 'rilla!

Haha. BKV is a freaking genius.

Alextron

10-21-2006, 07:21 PM

Juggernaut's should be a villian to me, not without his likable qualities, but still a villian. Did he ever get back at Xavier for that 'Onslaught' thing I wonder?

"Heeeere's Juggy!":cool:

JacktheKnife

10-21-2006, 08:26 PM

It's kinda funny in a sad way. But I had forgotten how bad ass Juggernaut used to be. There was a time when he'd show up and I was all like, "Oh ____. It's the Juggernaut! He's going to tear ____ up!" But in the many years since that time he really has become just a big ol' Huggernaut. Awww ain't he cute. Like I said. Funny, but sad.

CDM

10-21-2006, 09:25 PM

Yep. :D
He's done Iron Man, Hercules, and Underworld. That said, I agree he's a very good writer and he should get more chances outside the "X-Box". *groan* :p :D

HE'S OURS, DAMMIT, HE'S OURS!

Seriously, keep him on Exaclibur (give Claremont another book as consolation) or defy expectation and make him Whedon's successor.

CharleyX

10-21-2006, 09:38 PM

panjisudoyo

10-21-2006, 11:19 PM

As long as he doesn't meet Kitty Pride one day and say "I'm The Juggernaut, bi*#h!!" then i suppose all will be well...

Cain Marko

10-21-2006, 11:56 PM

I don't think Juggernaut's reformation was really that quick. It started when he destroyed the avatar of Cytorrak after Onslaught and then there was another arc with him in the Oktid dimension where Charles had to enter his mind and hash out some issues, and then it was another few years before he ended up at the mansion,

None of which had anything to do with reformation. After destroying the Cyttorak avatar he went on a crime spree immediately and he and Charles didn't hash out anything that I can recall. And he didn't fight Cyttorak out of heroism, he fought Cyttorak because Cyttorak was trying to kill him.And he fought Cyttorak's spell in 8th Day because it was trying to turn him into a mindless zombie. There was nothing reformative about it.

and there was that great Unlimited story where Scott tested him in the Danger Room before allowing him to teach gym (under supervision!), plus the whole development of the Squidboy thing, which went hand-in-hand with a trial and the eventual tragedy of Sammy's death and the ramification shown when he was an X-Baby.

But with the exception of Squidboy these all occur after he'd already reformed and started running missions with the team. He shows up in UXM #411. #416 is his reformation issue, and after this he's out on missions and accepted as a hero. He's heroically risking his life by just #420 and paling around with his new X-chums in #421. So we're talking a very short time for a very suspect reformation. Especially considering Cain wasn't even in some of the issues in-between.

And let's not forget that even as far back as X-Men 183 he was not portrayed as evil, in fact after beating the crap out of Colossus in a bar fight, he tossed the bartender a wad of cash to pay for the mess. Then the Dazzler thing as was mentioned above. He was never shown as a guy who would beat anyone to death (which he clearly could have done), except for Charles, and frankly, he had reasons to want that, however wrong it was.

Well except for the time when he would have beaten the Hulk to death if Red Skull didn't call him off of the Hulk's body. And the time he was about to beat Dr.Strange to death with a stone. And the time he beat Venom nearly to death and only stopped because it appeared Venom had died, which gave Cain a good laugh. And there's the time he readied to beat Thor to death after knocking Thor unconscious. And there's the occasion when he brought down one of the World Trade Center towers on top of X-Force and Spider-Man in an attempt to kill them, with the expressed intent of digging through the rubble and rending their corpses apart when he found them. Just to name a few.

Not to mention all the people he's outright murdered...

DrBat

10-22-2006, 08:21 PM

If I recall, he originally joined the X-Men as part of a plan with Black Tom to betray them (as revealed in Austen's last arc), but as time grew on and he befriended Sammy and the others, he decided to really be a member.

Cain Marko; Juggernaut's no saint, but you're acting like he's some evil psychopath. Also, if I recall his redemption started in the X-Men Forever miniseries.
From UncannyXmen.Net: "After a while there, he was visited by Prosh for a mission of great importance that may have a deep impact on the future of humanity. With each of the chosen five characters representing something, the Juggernaut was supposed to represent "humanity’s jealousy and insecurity the human race feels towards mutants." Prosh sent their minds back through time (ending up in their past bodies), to gather clues about an imminent danger but, in most stops, Cain found himself stuck in some form or the other. Either he was buried beneath tons of rubble, held in prison, or in some other intimidating position and Cain realized that his entire life had been a waste. (see http://x-men.pl/summaries/x-men_forever/graf/xmf004a.jpg for an example). After time-travelers returned from their journey, it was discovered that Prosh himself was the threat that he had warned them about, having been programmed by the Celestials to attack humanity. After the group successfully fought him off, they parted ways, each having to think a lot about themselves. Not much later, the Juggernaut accepted an offer from the Commission on Superhuman Activity to become their headhunter and, in exchange, was pardoned from his past crimes

Cain Marko

10-22-2006, 08:51 PM

Cain Marko; Juggernaut's no saint, but you're acting like he's some evil psychopath.

He's an evil something.

Also, if I recall his redemption started in the X-Men Forever miniseries.

Recall that that was a ruse Cain devised to get inside the government to further his criminal activities. He never reformed, it was an act. As was shown in his very next appearence.

DrBat

10-22-2006, 09:14 PM

No, his next appearance (in the Cyclops mini) just ignored it. It didn't retcon it (and if it did, it would have completely contradicted all of his thoughts that we saw in the mini).

Cain Marko

10-22-2006, 09:22 PM

No, his next appearance (in the Cyclops mini) just ignored it. It didn't retcon it (and if it did, it would have completely contradicted all of his thoughts that we saw in the mini).

<a href=http://www.geocities.com/cain_marko_ny/faq.html#XMF>Click</a>.

jaredgood1

10-22-2006, 11:30 PM

Sounds good. Plus, it will help fill the hole in my pull-list now that Nextwave is going bye-bye.

Johnny Triangles

10-23-2006, 12:13 AM

He's killed alot on panel and I'm sure many more off-panel. This is a guy who used toss buses full of people into walls like it was a water balloon. For that matter he'd publically committed a murderous rampage right in front of TV news cameras shortly before he joined the X-Men. Then apparently went to sleep one day and woke up as a cute and cuddly hero as though nothing ever happened.

I believe you about Juggernaut being a killer, but you still haven't given specific examples. Who are the people he killed on-panel? Which issues? I've seen him try to kill people a lot and always get thwarted. Saw him come close with Madame Web too. I remember he took down the Twin Towers once. Were they occupied? (I honestly can;t remember if they were evacuated or not)

DrBat

10-23-2006, 07:46 AM

<a href=http://www.geocities.com/cain_marko_ny/faq.html#XMF>Click</a>.

To accept what he said to Cyclops as truth would mean his entire appearance in XMF would be contradicted (we SAW what he was thinking there; his thought-bubbles, ect). It's more easier to believe he just threw away his parole when Black Tom needed his help. That doesn't change the fact that he started to reform because he realized he had been wasting his life.

Also; he wasn't accepted wholeheartedly on the team. Some were willing to give him a chance (this being a group of people who forgave both Magneto and Rogue), others like Iceman and Cyclops didn't trust him.

Concerning his WTC incident; only the top floors were destroyed, and no one was killed.

BurgundyTears

10-23-2006, 11:38 AM

I agree with Tieri that 'sorry' just isn't anywhere good enough when your past crimes are too great. Attempts to justify a former sadisticic serial-torturer and brainwasher like the White Queen, a thrill-killing assassin like Mystique or a mass-murdering terrorist like Magneto, without any punishment whatsoever never sat at all right with me.

That said, I hope Tieri mentions the Exemplars. I rather liked their appearance in the Busiek/Perez Avengers.

Also, the Wrecking Crew were originally supposed to be damn tough. Iron Fist & Captain America together didn't stand a chance against them without using the Avengers mansion version of the danger room at Thor level defense settings. It's first through unattentive later writers, wishing to show their pet characters in a flattering light, that they've started to be played as chumps.

DrBat

10-23-2006, 02:24 PM

Concerning Magneto and Mystique; one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. They're oppressed minorities fighting back against an oppressive majority.

Furthermore; Mystique isn't really 'redeemed' right now. It seems like she's working with the X-Men because she wants to be close with Rogue again, but it's not like she's acting repentant for her crimes. And in Magneto's case, it took a long time for a lot of the X-Men to win his trust. Cyclops and the other original X-Men never ever really forgave him.

I don't know the details of Emma's redemption, but I'm guessing most of her children being brutally murdered caused her to rethink things a bit? :confused:
===========
I guess Xavier just believes more in forgiveness and rehabilitation over punishment? Is that really a bad thing?

Cain Marko

10-23-2006, 04:12 PM

World Famous,

He killed a bunch of people in Thor #17 for one.

To accept what he said to Cyclops as truth would mean his entire appearance in XMF would be contradicted

As it should be. The XMF appearence was totally whacked from the beginning. It was almost like they were using the life of Juggernaut from the Fox Kids cartoon instead of from the comics. Awful.

Concerning his WTC incident; only the top floors were destroyed, and no one was killed.

What? He toppled the entire building then laughed as the whole thing fell on them. X-Force surviving wasn't his intention.

DrBat

10-23-2006, 05:01 PM

As it should be. The XMF appearence was totally whacked from the beginning. It was almost like they were using the life of Juggernaut from the Fox Kids cartoon instead of from the comics. Awful.

Right, because apparently the only correct portrayal of Juggernaut is the irredeemable sociopath?

If you're going to disregard XMF, then I'm going to disregard all those crappy 90s stuff (Liefeld's X-Force, ect) you're citing.

Cain Marko

10-23-2006, 11:48 PM

Right, because apparently the only correct portrayal of Juggernaut is the irredeemable sociopath?

Because the XMF appearence was a distorted mess with mispresented events and a completely misguided premise. But that's a whole other thread.

Johnny Triangles

10-24-2006, 12:33 AM

World Famous,

He killed a bunch of people in Thor #17 for one.

Thanks. I never read that issue.

virginsinner

10-24-2006, 06:26 AM

"Now, getting to what you implied earlier about Cain and Tom’s relationship… ya know, I never really did get that. Why is it that two guys can’t be close in popular entertainment without somebody assuming everything’s gone all “Brokeback”? Can’t two guys just be pals anymore?"

RIIIIIGHT. There's nothing gay about a man-tree who likes playing with wood, and a guy dressed up like a giant metal vibrator.

DrBat

10-24-2006, 07:27 AM

Because the XMF appearence was a distorted mess with mispresented events and a completely misguided premise. But that's a whole other thread.

It's canon that Juggernaut started to change when he realized he had been wasting his life, whether you like it or not. A passing reference isn't enough to retcon an entire miniseries, especially when it's more likely he was just lying to Cyclops.

Furthermore, it seems like all your evidence of Juggernaut being an evil sociopath is from crappy 90s stories (Liefeld's X-Force, ect).

And concerning Thor...
http://www.leaderslair.com/lightningcrashes/thor2-017.html
I don't see him killing anyone. I see the Exemplars (sp?) drawing him towards them, and he destroyed some property that was in his way while he was being pulled in their direction. Some people were put in danger, but he didn't intentionally try hurting them, and nobody ended up dying.

Cain Marko

10-24-2006, 11:13 AM

And concerning Thor...
http://www.leaderslair.com/lightning...thor2-017.html
I don't see him killing anyone. I see the Exemplars (sp?) drawing him towards them, and he destroyed some property that was in his way while he was being pulled in their direction. Some people were put in danger, but he didn't intentionally try hurting them, and nobody ended up dying.

So the Juggernaut accidentally smashed all those vehicles with people in them, picked them up by mistake, then inadvertantly hurled them into buildings? And the captions that say the Juggernaut is killing people in large amounts, do you feel they're lying too as you for some odd reason feel Cain was when he revealed XMF was an act?

BurgundyTears

10-24-2006, 01:16 PM

Concerning Magneto and Mystique; one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. They're oppressed minorities fighting back against an oppressive majority.No, to partially quote Grant Morrisson, they're daft old terrorists with antiquated ideas of violence and coercion to impose their will on others and gladly justifying any cruelties and extremes with no bad conscience if a lot of decent people get hurt in the process. A freedom fighter is simply out to restore democracy from a tyrant while choosing very specific targets and doesn’t believe in the ‘ends justify the means’ adage, while a terrorist (or oppressive regime) doesn't care if a lot more innocents than guilty parties get caught in the crossfire.

It's also morally reprehensible to justify slaughter of a much larger group of people by electing yourself a 'champion' of a far smaller assemblage, when all individuals in either have equal right to thrive and exist. Not to mention that when superhuman powers are in the equation it's not the larger party which runs the greatest risk of running wild, drunk on power, and becoming an oppressor.

Mystique has an established history of either working as an assassin/mercenary/spy for hire, joining terrorist organisations like Hydra or delighting in ultra violence as a KGB spy for kicks. She’s gleefully chopped down friends of her enemies in the guise of loved ones, gladly tried to murder even idealistic saints like Colossus in excruciatingly painful manners, killed innocents and assumed their identities to commit atrocities soiling their memory etc. Regarding her commitment to a rebel cause that's very dubious at best, seeing that her first appearances was as a conscience-free mercenary freelancer, that she quickly began working for the government through Freedom Force when she became concerned with being placed at too high personal risk. Later revelations of her history also established that she had joined a lot of different shady organisations and causes just to pass time over her century-long existence.

She seems to do whatever the hell she wants as long as it's personally beneficial or creates some level of temporary amusement and considers herself above and irreproachable by the rest of humanity to the point that, when the High Evolutionary took away her power, she went insane from having to deign to answer for her crimes like everyone else. As seen in her dialogue with Forge in her own series the whole 'They're oppressing me or someone else so that justifies any horrific action on my part' is just a convenient excuse to justify her supremacist terrorist libertarian ideals.

Magneto at the very least is sincere in his commitment to his cause. He truly believes in what he's doing. However he started out as a frothing would-be supremacist genocidal tyrant seeing himself as a member of the mutant 'master race' justified in ruling or wiping out everyone else. Later on he was fleshed out through introducing doubts in his methods and a background in the Auschwitz concentration camp. Thus trying to 'justify' adopting a similar ideology to that of the nazis later in life as an equivalent response and 'excusing' his past crimes by stating: 'Hey Alpha the Ultimate Mutant made him physically younger, so even though all his memories are intact, being blessed with 40 extra years of life exempts him from being reproached for any committed murders'. However in the end arc of Claremont's stint on the book it was established that his sudden 180 degree personality turnaround was a result of brainwashing from Moira MacTaggart during his stint as a child in her care.

Following up on this he enjoyed several returns to his core social-Darwinian supremacist genocidal lunatic personality, which we all love to hate, during the Nicieza/Lobdell, Alan Davis and Grant Morrisson eras. Claremont then made a very lame and illogical attempt to say that it wasn't really him during the Morrisson run. However since Magneto’s personality had been exactly the same (a mass-murdering power-boost addict) in most of his appearances since the early 90's this was a completely pointless retcon since the rest of them are still canon.
Furthermore; Mystique isn't really 'redeemed' right now. It seems like she's working with the X-Men because she wants to be close with Rogue again, but it's not like she's acting repentant for her crimes.Most writers seem extremely reluctant of ever referring to them since it would put her outside an romanticised image of a free-spirit, mature woman, multi-appearance sex-goddess who is a law unto her own, unbound and uncatchable by the restrictions of any society and able experience anything through becoming anyone she wishes. If they want that they could always bring back Copycat instead. She's the morally grey mutant shapeshiftress, Mystique is the really evil one (with one or two lighter spots) and Meggan is the pure and saintly one.
And in Magneto's case, it took a long time for a lot of the X-Men to win his trust. Cyclops and the other original X-Men never ever really forgave him.Yeah, but the tone of the storylines was to justify his philosophy and actions. Even Claremont himself seems to have occasionally doubt this notion in recent years by mentioning that we wouldn’t be so forgiving towards African warlords.
I don't know the details of Emma's redemption, but I'm guessing most of her children being brutally murdered caused her to rethink things a bit?Joss Whedon may be working on addressing that by implying that her deathlike coma split her better and nastier traits into two different bodies. However she used to be a sadistic, Machiavellian power-monger whose main functions in the Hellfire Club were torture and brainwashing which she seemed to take great delight in, developing new weapons for their army, as well as extending their power base through indoctrinating mutant youths.
I guess Xavier just believes more in forgiveness and rehabilitation over punishment? Is that really a bad thing?If it means saying: 'Feel free to murder, torture, abuse or tyrannise anyone you feel like. I'll forgive you anyway and never mind the pain of your victims. You can do it all over again later on and I'll forgive you yet again', to the point of letting child-eating serial killers like Sabretooth off the hook, instead of focusing that compassion towards their potential victims. Then yes it an extremely bad thing.

I'm all for (if possible) forgiving, attempting to rehabilitate and redeem lost, confused, anguished people lashing out in desperation with no real idea of what they're doing, or giving treatment to the mentally ill. I'm not, however, remotely willing to submit to complete lassies-faire morality and say that people in full control and awareness of their actions shouldn't be held accountable or that innocents shouldn't be protected from further acts of mass-slaughter on their part.

As for the Juggernaut, I don't remember him usually being played as much more than a dumb brute enjoying a good scrap back in his villain days. I have to admit that a cruel, torturing mass-murderer seems even more out of character than his rather sympathetic Austen & Claremont portrayals. His redemption seemed to start back in his post-Onslaught fight with Cyttorrak and continued in Busiek’s ‘Eight Day’ explanation of why Cyttorrak choose a champion, when Juggernaut took a crucial stand against the extermination of humanity. He was at least more sympathetic than before in ‘X-Men Forever’ and his more ambivalent tendencies were eventually picked up on by Austen and later Claremont, so the change didn’t exactly come out of the blue. However I haven't read all of his appearances so if someone can enlighten me I'm willing to listen.

Also I’m not sure if Cyttorrak ever was established as a demonic being, rather than just being an extraspatial magic entity in the same way as the Vishanti or much of Doctor Strange’s other supporting cast.

In any case why is it that any time some character is shown to have some conscience, compassion, doubt and humanity they have to be called ‘whiny bitches’? Do people have to be callous, conscience-free, merciless psychopaths, too one-track egoistic to ever doubt anything, for most people to sympathise with them nowadays? The current Juggernaut seems to have a similar disposition to that of the Thing. While this doesn't really make sense and I think he was one of Marvel's best villains (Hulk has to have at least someone near his own level to slug it out with), but a rather pointless hero. However, I don't see why that type of far more sympathetic personality in itself is worthy of more derision than the kind of bullying, mercenary bastard he used to be portrayed as (Giving rise to the scornful 'Huggernaut' designation… Though I haven’t heard it before Tieri mentioned it)?

DrBat

10-24-2006, 06:50 PM

No, to partially quote Grant Morrisson, they're daft old terrorists with antiquated ideas of violence and coercion to impose their will on others and gladly justifying any cruelties and extremes with no bad conscience if a lot of decent people get hurt in the process. A freedom fighter is simply out to restore democracy from a tyrant while choosing very specific targets and doesn’t believe in the ‘ends justify the means’ adage, while a terrorist (or oppressive regime) doesn't care if a lot more innocents than guilty parties get caught in the crossfire.
Freedom fighter- One engaged in armed rebellion or resistance against an oppressive government. Terrorism- the unlawful use or threat of violence especially against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion. One person's terrorist could easily be another person's freedom fighter.

And it was Grant Morrison who had the genocidal Cassandra Nova redeem herself and lead the X-Men in the future.

It's also morally reprehensible to justify slaughter of a much larger group of people by electing yourself a 'champion' of a far smaller assemblage, when all individuals in either have equal right to thrive and exist. Not to mention that when superhuman powers are in the equation it's not the larger party which runs the greatest risk of running wild, drunk on power, and becoming an oppressor.
Really? Because outside of alternate realities, I've only seen humans oppress mutants, and not the latter. http://uncannyxmen.net/images/spotlight/mystique43.jpg

Anyway, I've discussed the Mystique thing with you over at Carey's topic to death,and there's nothing much to say I haven't already said.

Magneto at the very least is sincere in his commitment to his cause. He truly believes in what he's doing. However he started out as a frothing would-be supremacist genocidal tyrant seeing himself as a member of the mutant 'master race' justified in ruling or wiping out everyone else.
Like most of Lee's run, Magneto was flat and poorly written. One of the reasons why X-Men was originally such a big flop, not becoming the success it is today until Claremont arrived. Furthermore, characters like Invisible Woman and Jean Grey were originally docile females who served mainly as damsels in distress. Should their characters be regressed to their original incarnations as well?

Later on he was fleshed out through introducing doubts in his methods and a background in the Auschwitz concentration camp. Thus trying to 'justify' adopting a similar ideology to that of the nazis later in life as an equivalent response and 'excusing' his past crimes by stating: 'Hey Alpha the Ultimate Mutant made him physically younger, so even though all his memories are intact, being blessed with 40 extra years of life exempts him from being reproached for any committed murders'.
Claremont fleshed out Magneto's character history, making him more well-rounded, giving hima background and a motivation for his actions. Prior to Claremont, Magneto was a cardboard-cutout of a character.

However in the end arc of Claremont's stint on the book it was established that his sudden 180 degree personality turnaround was a result of brainwashing from Moira MacTaggart during his stint as a child in her care.
1) Magneto was not brainwashed. See http://www.alara.net/xbooks/brainwash.html
A small detail from the essay: "When Magneto was re-aged by Davan Shakari, he was immediately just as delusional and crazed as before, doing such things as torturing the X-Men (who weren't there, and most of them weren't even the same X-Men as then) to pay Charles Xavier back for having been present when Magneto's own creation Mutant Alpha turned on him and made him an infant. I mean, there is no logic in this chain. Magneto slowly started reality-checking his beliefs after this event. He was not instantly transformed into a happy believer of Xavier's Way-- it took the impetus of Kitty Pryde's death, months later, to even shake his worldview. So in what sense, exactly, can we believe he was brainwashed?" Also, as it's stated, Magneto's change was a slow, gradual one (unlike his poorly written regression into villainy). It wasn't like one day he said, "I'm good now!"

Following up on this he enjoyed several returns to his core social-Darwinian supremacist genocidal lunatic personality, which we all love to hate, during the Nicieza/Lobdell, Alan Davis and Grant Morrisson eras.
Ah yes, after the writer who revitalized the X-Titles left, and they entered a slump they're still recovering from, in which Marvel had Magneto's character regressed due to their beliefs he was more profitable that way.

Though it should be noted that during this period, Magneto took over a wartorn country that had enslaved mutants and made it a utopia.

Claremont then made a very lame and illogical attempt to say that it wasn't really him during the Morrisson run. However since Magneto’s personality had been exactly the same (a mass-murdering power-boost addict) in most of his appearances since the early 90's this was a completely pointless retcon since the rest of them are still canon.
Magneto never went as far as he did in Morrison's run (crematoriums and the like). Also, it's been stated that it was Marvel who had Planet X retconned, because they didn't want Magneto being a "mass-murderer of New Yorkers". I'm assuming they let Claremont take the assignment because he was the only one who could write him properly. And Claremont had more intended for Magneto's behavior before it got sidetracked by House of M. A poster on Comixfan named Luke Heller posted this a while back; "I just got back from this past weekend's Wizard World LA (WWLA) Comic Convention. Aaron Lopresti was there and I chatted with him briefly about what he and CC had planned for Excalibur before HoM train-wrecked those ideas. He related that he knew Claremont had plans on turning Magneto back to a "bad guy." I asked him if this was Marvel's idea or Claremont's. He stated it was definitely CC's and Marvel did not influence him at all in that decision. He and CC were moving along the lines that Magneto's magnetic powers were causing negative effects on his physical brain. There was no mind-control being done by Charlie Xavier as has been hinted at and wildly speculated by many."

Most writers seem extremely reluctant of ever referring to them since it would put her outside an romanticised image of a free-spirit, mature woman, multi-appearance sex-goddess who is a law unto her own, unbound and uncatchable by the restrictions of any society and able experience anything through becoming anyone she wishes. If they want that they could always bring back Copycat instead. She's the morally grey mutant shapeshiftress, Mystique is the really evil one (with one or two lighter spots) and Meggan is the pure and saintly one.
What are you talking about? Her relationship with Rogue has been one of the key parts in both Milligan and Carey's run. (http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NJF17art/X-MenAnnualcover.jpg real evil person, btw)

Joss Whedon may be working on addressing that by implying that her deathlike coma split her better and nastier traits into two different bodies. However she used to be a sadistic, Machiavellian power-monger whose main functions in the Hellfire Club were torture and brainwashing which she seemed to take great delight in, developing new weapons for their army, as well as extending their power base through indoctrinating mutant youths.
No, she actually did care for the Hellions, believe it or not.

If it means saying: 'Feel free to murder, torture, abuse or tyrannise anyone you feel like. I'll forgive you anyway and never mind the pain of your victims. You can do it all over again later on and I'll forgive you yet again', to the point of letting child-eating serial killers like Sabretooth off the hook, instead of focusing that compassion towards their potential victims. Then yes it an extremely bad thing.

I'm all for (if possible) forgiving, attempting to rehabilitate and redeem lost, confused, anguished people lashing out in desperation with no real idea of what they're doing, or giving treatment to the mentally ill. I'm not, however, remotely willing to submit to complete lassies-faire morality and say that people in full control and awareness of their actions shouldn't be held accountable or that innocents shouldn't be protected from further acts of mass-slaughter on their part.
To quote Xavier circa X-Men #150: "The X-Men believe today's battle was a draw. They are wrong. They achived a great seminal victory, not by physically defeating Magneto-- which we have done so often in the past and which has resolved absolutely nothing (emphasis mine)-- but by changing Magneto's perceptions of who and what he is. He fled, because he came face to face with himself, and could not stand the sight."

If you don't want to believe in stuff like redemption, then look at it through a pragmatic view point, 'converting' your enemies does a lot more in the long run than simply throwing them in prison, where they'll escape by the end of the month.

DrBat

10-25-2006, 09:48 AM

So the Juggernaut accidentally smashed all those vehicles with people in them, picked them up by mistake, then inadvertantly hurled them into buildings? And the captions that say the Juggernaut is killing people in large amounts, do you feel they're lying too as you for some odd reason feel Cain was when he revealed XMF was an act?

If he was lying, why would it be in his thought bubbles?

And I'm going to be credulous until I see the page in question (concerning Thor), because I don't see why they'd start making Juggernaut a mass-murderer in a crossover in which he was the main character and was starting to be made sympathetic.

Cain Marko

10-25-2006, 01:33 PM

They didn't -start- making the Juggernaut a mass-murderer. The Juggernaut has always had a near total disregard for human life. Unless they hold some personal interest to him a person was worth less to him than a warm beer. And I fail to see anything "sympathetic" in 8th Day. He didn't fight the Exemplars because he was suddenly struck by heroism, he fought them because they were trying to enslave and kill him along with everyone else on the planet. It says(again) in 8th Day that Cain Marko has always been a creature of pure malice even without the Cyttorak power. That's why he's such a good fit for it.

And if you'd read that page I showed you then you'd see a scan of the Juggernaut killing people en masse. That should help with your credulousness. Him killing is not something new. Grabbing passing vehicles full of people and throwing them like dodgeballs is like a pet move of his. Cain Marko, whether you will acknowledge it or not, was a textbook sociopath. Being a sociopath doesn't mean he's drooling-out-the-mouth crazy, which Cain was not. And it doesn't mean he doesn't have a range of different emotions and moods, which like any other human Cain does. But it does mean he can and has committed the most terrible of acts without a drop of remorse or a moment's pause. He's a rampant killer. He's a strongarm robber. He's a terrorist. He's nearly everything in the criminal psychology book. If you're just going to not acknowledge these things when examples are cited to you then there's no point in showing you.

DrBat

10-25-2006, 06:02 PM

Sociopaths are people who are incapable of most human emotion, including forming emotional attachments to people. That doesn't apply to Juggernaut, who has shown in the past that he's cared for people (even before his redemption arc).

And while Juggernaut is no saint, I don't think he's as horrible a person as you continue to make him out to be. He was a bully and a brute, but not some evil psychopath.

Cain Marko

10-25-2006, 06:45 PM

There is no concrete set of things sociopaths can and cannot do. Only generalities. But the 3 biggest markers for a sociopath are 1)lack of a moral compass or random morality, 2)anti-social behavior, and 3)disregard for the consequences of their actions on other people. All 3 of which Cain Marko has in spades. If you don't consider someone who kills innocent people a bad person, that's fine. But someone who does such things(along with terrorism, robbery, vandalism, assault, etc...) is more than just a bully. Being able to walk into a city and collapse a building with everyone in it without thinking twice is a sociopathic act. The repeated murder of people who've never done anything to you without remorse is a sociopathic act. And by most societal standards is generally considered a very bad thing. Not something to be shrugged off.

DrBat

10-25-2006, 07:50 PM

One of the defining features of sociopaths are their inability to understand human emotion, or to care/love for anyone. Juggernaut's friendship with Black Tom, including how he desperately tried getting Tom medical help, alone disproves this. Doing bad things doesn't make someone a sociopath.

Furthermore, his redemption didn't just simply 'shrug off' what he had done (though I think you are overstating his crimes). Did you read X-Men Unlimited #4, for starters?

Terram

10-25-2006, 09:59 PM

It's hard to 'overstate' knocking down the WTC in terms of crimes..

Cain Marko

10-25-2006, 11:16 PM

Furthermore, his redemption didn't just simply 'shrug off' what he had done (though I think you are overstating his crimes).

I'm stating crimes the Juggernaut has actually committed. It would be difficult for you to say whether the'yre shrugging off what the Juggernaut has done or not considering you are apparently unaware of the magnitude of his villainy. You have yet to even acknowledge that the Juggernaut was a murderer. Even after being shown.

DrBat

10-26-2006, 07:29 AM

It's hard to 'overstate' knocking down the WTC in terms of crimes..

It was established in the issues in question that no one was harmed or killed. If you want to argue that it's poor writing (either that Juggernaut would knock it down, or that no one would be harmed), blame Liefeld.

I'm glad everyone is using a crappy 90s Liefeld crossover as a defining moment for the Juggernaut's character. :)

DrBat

10-26-2006, 07:38 AM

I'm stating crimes the Juggernaut has actually committed. It would be difficult for you to say whether the'yre shrugging off what the Juggernaut has done or not considering you are apparently unaware of the magnitude of his villainy. You have yet to even acknowledge that the Juggernaut was a murderer. Even after being shown.

It was dealt with. Read the summary of XMU #4. http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=2058

Cain Marko

10-26-2006, 11:13 AM

It was dealt with. Read the summary of XMU #4. http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=2058

If it was dealt with then why were you unaware of it? And why is there no mention whatsoever of it in the summary? All it shows is a danger room simulation of people with residual injuries and the like. But Cain didn't just unintentionally put a few people in the hospital, he intentionally put lots of them in the morgue. Was that in the simulation? I'm guessing no. Point blank, do you recognize that the Juggernaut was a mass murderer?

DrBat

10-26-2006, 01:37 PM

I don't know; it seems a lot of the posters here seem credulous of the idea of Juggernaut having killed people, let alone being a mass-murderer. You seem to be building him up as some pure evil sociopath, when most people here view him more as a bully or a brute.

He isn't that smart; when he throws a car at a superhero, his main concern is defeating the superhero, and he probably isn't thinking if someone's inside. Even if innocent people have died as a result of his actions, it's not like he goes out of his way to kill them; he's not some sadist who tortures kittens for amusement. Again, he's no saint but you're making him sound like someone like Carnage.

Cain Marko

10-26-2006, 02:13 PM

I don't know; it seems a lot of the posters here seem credulous of the idea of Juggernaut having killed people, let alone being a mass-murderer.

I don't see it. Some may not have been aware that he was one until now, but I don't see anyone else still thinking he wasn't. Hard to argue when it's shown right in the books.

He isn't that smart; when he throws a car at a superhero, his main concern is defeating the superhero, and he probably isn't thinking if someone's inside.

Not that that would make killing a mass of people any less sociopathic...

But what about the times he's smashing them for the sole purpose of killing the innocents themselves? Such as when he razes cities? And by the way, he wasn't attacking Thor when he was killing those people. He was just attacking the people. That was the only reason Thor showed up to begin with.

Even if innocent people have died as a result of his actions, it's not like he goes out of his way to kill them

Except of course for when he does.

he's not some sadist who tortures kittens for amusement. Again, he's no saint but you're making him sound like someone like Carnage.

He is what he is. There's a huge functional difference between being a sociopath like the Juggernaut and being a raving psychotic like Carnage. You don't have to kill 20 people everyday and bathe in their blood to be considered a mass murderer. All it takes is to kill numerous people. Which the Juggernaut has.

DrBat

10-26-2006, 08:27 PM

Juggernaut was being drawn to the Exemplars because of the Eighth Day and wasn't in full control of himself (it was also apparently affecting his mind; "Graah! Yer making my head hurt!"). He wasn't out killing people for fun like you imply.

Cain Marko

10-26-2006, 10:03 PM

I didn't imply anything. I said plainly that he's a mass murderer, which he is. He's responsible for everything he did there. But if trying to use the Exemplars as an excuse, then why did he do the same thing in UXM #361 before the Exemplars even existed? Or any of the other issues he's done it before that? The list goes on, but at this point I don't think it'll do any good. If you can attempt to justify acts like this (http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing/killer.jpg) with reasoning like the Juggernaut "probably isn't thinking if someone's inside" in order to avoid admitting that the man's a killer, then there's nowhere else to go with it really.

Terram

10-26-2006, 10:10 PM

I'm glad everyone is using a crappy 90s Liefeld crossover as a defining moment for the Juggernaut's character. :)
This from a guy who's argument is centered around a redemption written by Chuck Austen. You know what they say about glass houses and throwing stones, right?

acts like this (http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing/killer.jpg)
Well played!

Cain Marko

10-26-2006, 11:03 PM

This from a guy who's argument is centered around a redemption written by Chuck Austen.

A jailable offense in some states.

DrBat

10-27-2006, 07:50 AM

While most of Chuck Austen's run was bad, his Juggernaut arc wasn't. I've seen several posters who've stated that was one of the only good things in his run.

One review: "The Juggernaut's subplot has, in fairness, been one of the stronger aspects of Austen's run._ Largely that's because he's kept it fairly simple, with none of the strange and dementedly elaborate schemes that have plagued other plotlines."

A poster here: "The only good thing Austen did was make Juggy a good guy."

Another: "I like what he did with Juggernaught, and Northstar, but hated everything else."

Another:"Austen did some horrible things [She-Britain and the Draco come to mind?] but also did some good [like Juggernaut joining the X-Men, bringing back Havok]."

Another:"there are very few things i give austen credit for. juggernaut is one. the character had grown too dull over the years, and his redemption was a nice twist."

Another:"It is also good to see Juggernaut isn't a bad guy again. I was afraid that after he came out of Xorn's head that the reset button would be hit and he would be a one-dimensional nut job. If Austen did anything right with his run on X-men, it was Juggernaut."

Of all the negative comments I've seen about Austen's work, most have stated that Juggernaut was the only good thing he did.

As for that image; is he going around killing people for fun like you say, or is he throwing a bus at Thor in the heat of battle and not thinking of the consequences (ala XMU #4)? And Thor stopped the bus, so no one died that time.

&themonkey

10-27-2006, 09:50 AM

Just because he's putting people in dangerous situations doesn't mean that he wants to kill them. In Cable/Deadpool the Silver Surfer vaporized the US Navy so that Cable would be forced to save them, even though he would never actually kill someone. Still, I fully believe Juggernaut has killed people because he's clearly been a unrepenitant psycho. He scared Prof. X so much that he left him trapped under a mountain.

BTW The only thing I liked about Austen's run was the Juggernaut arc.

Cain Marko

10-27-2006, 12:08 PM

As for that image; is he going around killing people for fun like you say,

Like -you- say, actually. You added in the "killing people for fun" bit on your own so that you could then say he's not killing people for fun there. Which no one said he was to begin with. I guess it was to try distract from the real point of that image, which is that the Juggernaut had almost zero regard for human life. An evil and undeniable attribute of his that you want to deny. Namely because it cripples the argument that Cain Marko was never that bad before getting Austenized. Clearly he was. Which makes his gallavanting around like a hero now implausible(at best). The point of the upcoming arc.

or is he throwing a bus at Thor in the heat of battle and not thinking of the consequences? .

But he can't be doing that, because such unredeemable inconsideration for the consequences to others (http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe04.html) would make him a sociopath. And he wasn't a sociopath (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sociopath), right?

Anyway, since you don't appear to be taking any kind of honest view I'll stop here. You're brushing off unambiguous capital crimes as mild personality quirks. And arguing that men who repeatedly murder innocent people aren't murderers. I'll just have to disagree.

DrBat

10-27-2006, 01:20 PM

Like -you- say, actually. You added in the "killing people for fun" bit on your own so that you could then say he's not killing people for fun there. Which no one said he was to begin with. I guess it was to try distract from the real point of that image, which is that the Juggernaut had almost zero regard for human life. An evil and undeniable attribute of his that you want to deny. Namely because it cripples the argument that Cain Marko was never that bad before getting Austenized. Clearly he was. Which makes his gallavanting around like a hero now implausible(at best). The point of the upcoming arc.
No. YOU said, "But what about the times he's smashing them for the sole purpose of killing the innocents themselves? Such as when he razes cities? And by the way, he wasn't attacking Thor when he was killing those people. He was just attacking the people." He has never killed people for the sole purpose of killing people (which would imply he does it for fun). In that battle, he threw a car at Thor to defeat him. It's not like he went around harming people for the sake of it.

But he can't be doing that, because such unredeemable inconsideration for the consequences to others (http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe04.html) would make him a sociopath. And he wasn't a sociopath (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sociopath), right?

Anyway, since you don't appear to be taking any kind of honest view I'll stop here. You're brushing off unambiguous capital crimes as mild personality quirks. And arguing that men who repeatedly murder innocent people aren't murderers. I'll just have to disagree.
You really need to look up more on antisocial personality disorder. People afflicted with it lack the ability to love or care for anyone; they can only experience "a limited range of human emotions." If Juggernaut was a sociopath, he would be unable to care for anyone. It was established in his early appearances that he cares deeply for Black Tom, from when he jumped in raging waters to save him in X-Men #103, or when he desperately tried getting him medical attention when Tom was afflicted with that wood-disease. A sociopath would not do any of that. A sociopath is incapable of love. A sociopath would have abandoned Tom when he was dying.

Cain Marko

10-27-2006, 02:19 PM

No. YOU said, "But what about the times he's smashing them for the sole purpose of killing the innocents themselves? Such as when he razes cities? And by the way, he wasn't attacking Thor when he was killing those people. He was just attacking the people."

Yes I did. But without going back into it, that's an earlier post not in relation to the image you're trying to link it to. The last image was to illustrate Cain's disregard for human life. And while I'm sure you somehow interpret "Juggernaut! Thy UTTER DISREGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE would give e'en a maddened rock troll pause!" to mean something other than Juggernaut has a disregard for human life, that was the only point that image in particular was to show.

DrBat

10-27-2006, 05:12 PM

Juggernaut has never been known for his high intelligence.

Again; he's not thinking of the consequences. He's in the heat of battle, and he throws a car at his enemy to defeat him. Is he wrong in doing that? Yes. Does that make him a massmurdering sociopath? No. Is he attempting to harm innocent people for the sake of it? No, the fact that innocent people are inside probably didn't even cross his mind; he just wanted to hurl something heavy at his opponent. Stupidity does not equal evil.

His actions are certainly not laudable, but it doesn't make him a massmurdering sociopath who kills people for the sake of it.

Terram

10-27-2006, 06:43 PM

Juggernaut has never been known for his high intelligence.

Again; he's not thinking of the consequences. He's in the heat of battle, and he throws a bus packed full of innocent people at his enemy to defeat him. Is he wrong in doing that? Yes. Does that make him a massmurdering sociopath? That's probably the definition of massmurdering sociopath.

Terram

10-27-2006, 06:57 PM

You really need to look up more on antisocial personality disorder. No he doesn't. He's going by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the national standard text of psychological diagnosis, and their strict criteria of someone with antisocial personality disorder. Three out of seven criteria are required to be diagnosed as antisocial disordered. In one panel alone, Juggs confirmed six out of those seven. Even under the most forgiving, murder-coddling DrBat "re-envisionment" of the scenario.

You are pulling your definitions out with no source. Whatever the disorder you're describing, it's something of your own invention, and definitely not antisocial personality disorder.

It's you who seriously needs to study up on the topic.

DrBat

10-27-2006, 08:31 PM

So you believe that sociopaths are capable of loving or caring for someone, as Juggernaut has shown in the past (even before his redemption)?

Have you ever considered the possibility that due to his low intelligence, he just didn't think of the people inside? Does stupidity equal evil now?

BTW, I was judging my information from Martha Stout, who was trained at the famous McLean Psychiatric Hospital and is a practicing psychologist and a clinical instructor in the department of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. (Though I thought it was common knowledge that sociopaths are incapable of love or real emotion).

Terram

10-27-2006, 10:05 PM

So you believe that sociopaths are capable of loving or caring for someone, as Juggernaut has shown in the past (even before his redemption)? Easily. And it's not a "belief", it's the strict interpretation of the national psychological standard of sociopath/"antisocial personality disorder" criteria. Please read over this (http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe04.html) again, and note how that "never loves anyone ever" is not on the list of seven requirements of which only three need to be met. And it certainly does not negate other sociopathic behavior, as you are under the idea it does.
Have you ever considered the possibility that due to his low intelligence, he just didn't think of the people inside? Does stupidity equal evil now? No, then he's just a stupid sociopath. And I mean really stupid in order to meet this ridiculous proposition. That Juggernaut is suffering from such mental disabilities that he cannot tell if there are people in a car or not. He might be a meathead, and wear a special helmet, but he's not the level of mentally retarded that it would take to not be aware that people may be in those metal box-things that whizz by. This is because stupid people go without "accidently" committing murder, robbery and destruction on a daily basis; they do not display a "reckless disregard for safety of self or others" like a sociopath (it's that list again!) .

BTW, I was judging my information from Martha Stout, who was trained at the famous McLean Psychiatric Hospital and is a practicing psychologist and a clinical instructor in the department of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. (Though I thought it was common knowledge that sociopaths are incapable of love or real emotion).
Quick review of Martha Stout's book on sociopathy from Bookslut:

That really seems to be the gist of sociopathy... the total lack of remorse or regard for other people. The DSM-IV criteria -- the gold standard for diagnosing mental disorders -- Dr. Stout says, lists seven characteristics: failure to conform to social norms, being deceitful and manipulating, being impulsive, being irritable or aggressive, being unconcerned about the safety of the self or anybody else, being consistently irresponsible, and being unconcerned and unremorseful for hurting or stealing. To be a sociopath, you need to have at least three of the symptoms (and not just because you're in a bad mood. If you're not a sociopath, you'll probably regret it later). In case you missed the posted list again. I underlined all six traits that using human beings as projectiles entails for you.

So even your source agrees with Cain Marko: Juggs is a sociopath.

Edit:

While most of Chuck Austen's run was bad, his Juggernaut arc wasn't. I've seen several posters who've stated that was one of the only good things in his run.
Several posters?! Get the man a trophy!

DrBat

10-27-2006, 11:04 PM

The general consensus that I've seen is that most people liked his characterization of Juggernaut, even if they didn't like the rest of his run.

Concerning Stout; um, no. "What is a sociopath? According to Stout, it is a person with no (or very low) emotional responses. In simple terms, they don't feel guilt or love or duty or shame the way we do. This doesn't, of course, make them criminal per se, but it does open up some interesting possibilities, doesn't it? They are inclined to be opportunistic and manipulative, but not pariahs. Far from it — sociopaths may be quite successful in worldly terms, if not in personal or emotional terms. But they leave a trail of hurt or cheated people in their wake." A title of one of her articles; The ice people: living among us are people with no conscience, no emotions and no conception of love. Welcome to the chilling world of the sociopath.

http://uncannyxmen.net/images/spotlight/juggernaut10.jpg
http://uncannyxmen.net/images/spotlight/dazzler38.jpg

Does this look like a sociopath to you? (and concerning the bit w/Dazzler; he didn't do that to her. she was fighting him when she overtaxed her limits and passed out, and he thought she was dead)

Terram

10-27-2006, 11:39 PM

Concerning Stout; um, no. Um, yes. Her qualifiers for sociopathy are centered on the DSM-IV standard, which would trump her alarmist opinion regardless in terms of credibility. And yes, he looks like quite the sociopath there: Criminal activity, aggressive and violent, poor planning, lack of empathy, lack of friends, tendency to shift responsibility.

DrBat

10-28-2006, 08:19 AM

He has been shown to have cared for people. He has been shown to show remorse or regret.

Even if what he has done was wrong, it does not make the idea of him trying to reform impossible.