How would YOU have done Civil War?

[nolanjwerner]

With all of the criticism of it out there, my question is how you would have done it better.

You need to start with the Stanford incident.
And public sentiment building towards the passage of the SHRA in to law.
And Captain America leads the faction against it and Iron Man leads the faction for it.

Past that, you're free to do what you want.

[1603]

I'd even out the law and the actions of both sides to make them equally offensive. That way, fans would have really been forced to choose a side like they were supposed to be, rather than guided to which side to choose like they were.

[nolanjwerner]

I'd even out the law and the actions of both sides to make them equally offensive. That way, fans would have really been forced to choose a side like they were supposed to be, rather than guided to which side to choose like they were.



One other thing I forgot.

Lets try to be specific.

[ednorris]

I'd even out the law and the actions of both sides to make them equally offensive. That way, fans would have really been forced to choose a side like they were supposed to be, rather than guided to which side to choose like they were.

The story still has 3 ISSUES left, who is too say that it won't turn into a more pro-reg side book from this point on. The reason why everything seems so anti-reg is because of the tie-ins that every clammers over. But take into account that Millar pitched this and didn't really have time to talk to all the other writers about doing it his way, then Marvel decided to make a HUGE thing about it and almost every book has become a tie-in. So while its suppose to a morally book, most writers are writing things just to spice up their actual book they are working on like in Wolverine where thigns seem like a conspiracy theory, but that really isn't the story at all. I think Mark Millar is going a decent job of keeping both sides equals in the main Civil War mini. Yea, Tony and Reed cloned a friend, but Cap threw the first punch, then he is bitchin at everyone after the fight not ever caring about Bill's death. The registration bill passed as a law, and now Tony, Reed, and company are the only people on the ight side of it. Just let the book play out, then we can have 8000+ threads discussing the ramifications, the execution, the out of line characters, everything.

[1603]

The story still has 3 ISSUES left, who is too say that it won't turn into a more pro-reg side book from this point on. The reason why everything seems so anti-reg is because of the tie-ins that every clammers over. .

I haven't read a single tie in. So I'm getting my opinion solely from the Civil War issues themselves. And so far, yes, the anti side are clearly a-holes too, no debating that, but the pro side is being made to look far worse.

And for Nolan, I don't think I really need to elaborate on the examples of the unfairness of the law to you, you say it all the time. And the things the pro side have done that make them look like the bad guys are pretty clear, I don't really think I need to pick apart issues to evidence it all.

[nolanjwerner]

I haven't read a single tie in. So I'm getting my opinion solely from the Civil War issues themselves. And so far, yes, the anti side are clearly a-holes too, no debating that, but the pro side is being made to look far worse.

And for Nolan, I don't think I really need to elaborate on the examples of the unfairness of the law to you, you say it all the time. And the things the pro side have done that make them look like the bad guys are pretty clear, I don't really think I need to pick apart issues to evidence it all.


If people were offering alternative scenarios, I wanted to ask them about specific things. Thats all I was saying.

If I were writing the book, I'd just throw out the silly idea that the pro reg side has a legitimate argument. Any legitimate argument they had was nullified by their Gestapo tactics and the fact that they were supporting a law that was a blatant violation of human rights. Honestly, I'd have done 52 weekly issues and let the thing play out over a year. And show that people who fought for alternative, fairer, laws were silenced.

Because my issue is less about the idea and more about the fact that the law itself was inherently a violation of human rights.

[1603]

If I were writing the book, I'd just throw out the silly idea that the pro reg side has a legitimate argument. Any legitimate argument they had was nullified by their Gestapo tactics and the fact that they were supporting a law that was a blatant violation of human rights. Honestly, I'd have done 52 weekly issues and let the thing play out over a year. And show that people who fought for alternative, fairer, laws were silenced.

Ha, if I wrote the book, I'd show that the pro side was the only legitamte argument. It would be only registering and training the heroes, and there's absolutely no way to argue against that, unless one favors pure anarchy.

[1603]

Anyway, they couldn't make either side 100% morally right, or they'd not even have an issue to fight over, so I don't blame them for that, but it should be a much harder choice forced on us, and the heroes, the two sides should be much closer.

[ednorris]

Yea, I'm rollin' on no tie-ins either besides Cap because I normally get the book. But I have read here on Newsarama about al the other books, since every day there are like 10 new threads about Civil War. And I do agreed you 1603 to some degree. The pro-side is not looking so good from a comic readers perspective, but in the actual Marvel U where this story is taking place, they are doing the right thing, no matter what means they have to do it.

[1603]

Yea, I'm rollin' on no tie-ins either besides Cap because I normally get the book. But I have read here on Newsarama about al the other books, since every day there are like 10 new threads about Civil War. And I do agreed you 1603 to some degree. The pro-side is not looking so good from a comic readers perspective, but in the actual Marvel U where this story is taking place, they are doing the right thing, no matter what means they have to do it.

yeah agreed. They just shouldn't be so quick to do some of the things they are, adn writing them as such makes them completely impossible to sympathize with for most people.

[1603]

yeah I spent way too much money on the crisis tie ins, and don't read any of the civil war tie in books anyway.

[gypsynuke]

If people were offering alternative scenarios, I wanted to ask them about specific things. Thats all I was saying.

If I were writing the book, I'd just throw out the silly idea that the pro reg side has a legitimate argument. Any legitimate argument they had was nullified by their Gestapo tactics and the fact that they were supporting a law that was a blatant violation of human rights. Honestly, I'd have done 52 weekly issues and let the thing play out over a year. And show that people who fought for alternative, fairer, laws were silenced.

Because my issue is less about the idea and more about the fact that the law itself was inherently a violation of human rights.
How does it violate any human rights? I think the argument that law enforcement requires registration and vigilantism is illegal pretty well covers that this isn't a matter of civil liberties.

[ednorris]

haha we could turn this in a crisis thread, but yea I only got omac, because it seemed like the most essential of the 4 tie-ins. And turning this back to CW, it is hard to sympathize with them, you are right about that, and that is why I hope the next 3 issues help readers do that. Mark Millar is a great writer, I'm sure he will cover both sides of the story, and I am sure he had that planned when he pitched it. I trust that man's story telling 100 percent after reading Ultimates, Red Son, his Ultimate Fantastic Four run, and anything else.

[1603]

How does it violate any human rights? I think the argument that law enforcement requires registration and vigilantism is illegal pretty well covers that this isn't a matter of civil liberties.

Those certainly aren't. But he argues on behalf of mutants, and he also thinks things that "draft" poeple are illegal.

[James Asia]

Honestly, I'm really loving Civil War, so there are only a few changes I would make:
1) I'd make Tony and Reed a bit less shady. For the most part, Millar hasn't made Cap "right" and them "wrong", but the cloning thing, the clone getting outta control, Goliath dying, have been changing that a bit.
2) the Superhero Registration Act shouldn't require anyone to work for SHIELD/the government or face imprisonment. Superpowered folks who don't want to leave the country OR work for the gov't should be allowed to just register their name/powers and be able to live like civilians, with good samaritan laws applied to them (IE, if they see a Doombot about to blow up a civilian, they can beat up the doombot without fear of gov't reprisals.)

[1603]

haha we could turn this in a crisis thread, but yea I only got omac, because it seemed like the most essential of the 4 tie-ins. And turning this back to CW, it is hard to sympathize with them, you are right about that, and that is why I hope the next 3 issues help readers do that. Mark Millar is a great writer, I'm sure he will cover both sides of the story, and I am sure he had that planned when he pitched it. I trust that man's story telling 100 percent after reading Ultimates, Red Son, his Ultimate Fantastic Four run, and anything else.

yeah, I really don't know how he'll represent from this point on. Looks like they're getting worse though, not better! And crisis, i liked what i bought, but it was just too much money to spend! when I saw that this had something like 86 tie ins, I said no way am I buying those! I did actually try Frontlines #1, but if you think the main story is biased, that thing can almost kill you! :D

[TheLizard207]

While I dont think its perfectly executed, I like it damn well as is.

I would of made the CW Iron Man arc sooner, and Made the NA pro reg one & dones sooner.

[1603]

Honestly, I'm really loving Civil War, so there are only a few changes I would make:
1) I'd make Tony and Reed a bit less shady. For the most part, Millar hasn't made Cap "right" and them "wrong", but the cloning thing, the clone getting outta control, Goliath dying, have been changing that a bit.
2) the Superhero Registration Act shouldn't require anyone to work for SHIELD/the government or face imprisonment. Superpowered folks who don't want to leave the country OR work for the gov't should be allowed to just register their name/powers and be able to live like civilians, with good samaritan laws applied to them (IE, if they see a Doombot about to blow up a civilian, they can beat up the doombot without fear of gov't reprisals.)

Those sum up pretty much exactly how I feel.

[Bearpod91]

SHIELD's behind everything

When cap and Iron Man find out they team up back together to stop SHIELD and then all happily ever after with the destruction of SHIELD.

I still think this is possible to happen.

[nolanjwerner]

Ha, if I wrote the book, I'd show that the pro side was the only legitamte argument. It would be only registering and training the heroes, and there's absolutely no way to argue against that, unless one favors pure anarchy.


How does it violate any human rights? I think the argument that law enforcement requires registration and vigilantism is illegal pretty well covers that this isn't a matter of civil liberties.


The law requires registration based on primarily genetic criteria. Its a Super Nuremberg Law (I just love adding Super before things).


I'd have done 52 weekly issues to counter 52. Just me writing it. Then the tie ins could get in on a much tighter schedule.

I would have started with the Stanford incident. Then have the public outcry.

Then two pieces of legislation get proposed. one is just for superheroes and actually gives them autonomy and the other one is the SHRA that gets passed. We deal with a few issues of protests for that. ANd we have the pro reg side lining up their guns to go after people as soon as it passes.

Then we show things snowball as something that once could have been useful became a draconian measure.

And the pro reg side has to resort to the gestapo style tactics that they're using.

Id also put a scene in where the pro reg superteam has to let a politically connected criminal go even though they actually caught him committing a crime. I'd go with child molestation but they'd probably make me do murder for the sake of decorum.

And at the end, it goes that the leaders get off scot free but they throw a few small fish to people (rather like abu ghraib). And the law is overturned on a technicality after everyone sees how bad it is from media coverage. But the distrust is still there, rather like the aftermath of mccarthyism.

[1603]

The law requires registration based on primarily genetic criteria. Its a Super Nuremberg Law (I just love adding Super before things).


.

Not really. There are only 198 mutants now. I'm sure there are far more other heroes (and villains) than that.

Anyway, as I said, if it were only about registering powers and being trained to use them if one is opting to, there's really nothing wrong with that.

[nolanjwerner]

Not really. There are only 198 mutants now. I'm sure there are far more other heroes (and villains) than that.

Anyway, as I said, if it were only about registering powers and being trained to use them if one is opting to, there's really nothing wrong with that.



Actually, if you look at the 198 thread, there were closer to like ten thousand (down from like 10-20 million or so).

Except that this isn't what the law does at all. Thats only a small aspect of it. That would be like saying that Plessy v. Ferguson was okay because it only dealt with interstate transportation (or intrastate, I don't remember which) without looking at the larger social implications.

[1603]

hey on that genetic notion, aren't the mutants technically another species? Been wondering about this. I don't read a lot of x-men, but the term homo superior implies that they are, because they're not homo sapiens. Any thoughts?

[nolanjwerner]

hey on that genetic notion, aren't the mutants technically another species? Been wondering about this. I don't read a lot of x-men, but the term homo superior implies that they are, because they're not homo sapiens. Any thoughts?



Biologically, speciation would be dependant on being able to cross breed.

As long as they are capable of breeding with normal humans and producing offspring that aren't sterile, they are technically the same species.

[1603]

Actually, if you look at the 198 thread, there were closer to like ten thousand (down from like 10-20 million or so).

Except that this isn't what the law does at all. Thats only a small aspect of it. That would be like saying that Plessy v. Ferguson was okay because it only dealt with interstate transportation (or intrastate, I don't remember which) without looking at the larger social implications.

Dude, we're saying how we'd CHANGE it to be. I said, "If... the law were that way!

And, what's up with the mutant thing, I thought the whole point of the 198 was that there are only 198?

[1603]

Biologically, speciation would be dependant on being able to cross breed.

As long as they are capable of breeding with normal humans and producing offspring that aren't sterile, they are technically the same species.

But I thought in Marvel science that is actually their nomenclature, or whatever the hell that's called.

[nolanjwerner]

Dude, we're saying how we'd CHANGE it to be. I said, "If... the law were that way!

And, what's up with the mutant thing, I thought the whole point of the 198 was that there are only 198?


Actually, 198 were either the number at Xavier's school or the number the government knows of (I've seen people mention both).

So would you ahve changed the wording of the law or its effects? Or just focused on a different aspect?

[nolanjwerner]

But I thought in Marvel science that is actually their nomenclature, or whatever the hell that's called.



I always thought it was a slang term to show off prestige or something.

[1603]

Actually, 198 were either the number at Xavier's school or the number the government knows of (I've seen people mention both).

So would you ahve changed the wording of the law or its effects? Or just focused on a different aspect?

I'm pretty sure even Joe said there's only close to 198 at least, right?

The law, yes, I would make everyone determined to be in possession of any super power (which would have to be defined by law as well) to be made to register their power with the govt, which obviously implies they register their name as well. Govt training porgrams would be available for all of them, if they chose to pursue them.

Now, if any of these people decided to go out and act as super heroes, they'd have to be legally registered, and have had the training. If they didn't, it would be akin to using a deadly unregistered weapon.

[1603]

I always thought it was a slang term to show off prestige or something.

That's what I'm wondering, but I thought it was their actual term, I'd like a big X fan to be able to weigh in. It's probably been used both ways by various writers.

[nolanjwerner]

I'm pretty sure even Joe said there's only close to 198 at least, right?

The law, yes, I would make everyone determined to be in possession of any super power (which would have to be defined by law as well) to be made to register their power with the govt, which obviously implies they register their name as well. Govt training porgrams would be available for all of them, if they chose to pursue them.

Now, if any of these people decided to go out and act as super heroes, they'd have to be legally registered, and have had the training. If they didn't, it would be akin to using a deadly unregistered weapon.



HOw would that work in your story?

In mine, I'd basically have the schools set up like the Battle School from Ender's Game or the FF8 Gardens. No real focus on academics.

Although mine would be focused more on the radical side winning out and the anti reg heroes being forced in to rebellion.

[1603]

HOw would that work in your story?

What do you mean? How would I write the story around that?

Yeah, as I was mentioning above, there does have to be some controversy on both sides of it, otherwise there's no war. So, to enable that, I would play up the secret identity angle as well, that heroes feel threatened by that.

[nolanjwerner]

That's what I'm wondering, but I thought it was their actual term, I'd like a big X fan to be able to weigh in. It's probably been used both ways by various writers.




I thought it was homo sapiens sapiens and homo sapiens superior technically.

Biologically, I don't think that there are any differences in terms of being able to breed together (though I think in the future there might be). And that would be a damn cool story. Deal with the X-Men having to deal with the implications that more fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborting.

[1603]

Although mine would be focused more on the radical side winning out and the anti reg heroes being forced in to rebellion.

Agree there, that's probably how it'll go too. I'm sorry, I've never read what you were mentioning above.

[nolanjwerner]

What do you mean? How would I write the story around that?

Yeah, as I was mentioning above, there does have to be some controversy on both sides of it, otherwise there's no war. So, to enable that, I would play up the secret identity angle as well, that heroes feel threatened by that.



Except that most of the superheroes have like 20 people that know their secret identity. HOw would you deal with that?

[nolanjwerner]

Agree there, that's probably how it'll go too. I'm sorry, I've never read what you were mentioning above.



I definatley would have shown the more moderate pro reg side. And then have them lose out. And they either have to join with the really radical side or become criminals.

[1603]

I thought it was homo sapiens sapiens and homo sapiens superior technically.

Biologically, I don't think that there are any differences in terms of being able to breed together (though I think in the future there might be). And that would be a damn cool story. Deal with the X-Men having to deal with the implications that more fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborting.

Yeah, they def can breed together. Still, I thought they were technically the "new" species. Imagine the law then, if they weren't even technically human!

[1603]

I definatley would have shown the more moderate pro reg side. And then have them lose out. And they either have to join with the really radical side or become criminals.

:confused: You mean the anti side where I highlighted?

[nolanjwerner]

:confused: You mean the anti side where I highlighted?


No, I meant the moderate pro reg elements. The ones who want a registration bill but aren't necessarily happy with the one that got signed in to law.

Like one that affected superheroes more then superhumans. Or who didn't think that it offered sufficient safeguards against being a superdraft, etc.

[nolanjwerner]

Yeah, they def can breed together. Still, I thought they were technically the "new" species. Imagine the law then, if they weren't even technically human!



If they can breed together then they are still relatively closely related.

Although there's such variance among mutants that I think there could be individuals that wouldn't be the same species. But I don't think large scale speciation has occured yet.

[1603]

Except that most of the superheroes have like 20 people that know their secret identity. HOw would you deal with that?

Yeah that is a bit of a tough one. I think it could have started small that way and just had the fighting escalate through an accident on one side killing someone on the other-that way both sides would be truly innocent of it, and yet the fighting would still get out of control. As it was, it seemed that things didn't escalate like that, they escalated by actions each side committed on purpose.

[nolanjwerner]

Yeah that is a bit of a tough one. I think it could have started small that way and just had the fighting escalate through an accident on one side killing someone on the other-that way both sides would be truly innocent of it, and yet the fighting would still get out of control. As it was, it seemed that things didn't escalate like that, they escalated by actions each side committed on purpose.



Honestly, I think a great way to do that would be to have had one of the heroes who got registered get killed in a home burglary or something not even vaguely related to it.

Then everyone gets hysterical. And there are conspiracy theories about or the government can't protect people.

[1603]

Honestly, I think a great way to do that would be to have had one of the heroes who got registered get killed in a home burglary or something not even vaguely related to it.

Then everyone gets hysterical. And there are conspiracy theories about or the government can't protect people.

Yes, exactly. And each side would not see it for what it was, they would just overreact and we'd have liftoff!

[1603]

If they can breed together then they are still relatively closely related.

Although there's such variance among mutants that I think there could be individuals that wouldn't be the same species. But I don't think large scale speciation has occured yet.

Well, I don't know this at all- but could the different types of early humans breed together?
Not sure of the terms, but I think cro-magnon man was different species than one of the others, or whatever the order of them were-but my point is, I think they might have cross-bred.

[nolanjwerner]

Yes, exactly. And each side would not see it for what it was, they would just overreact and we'd have liftoff!


Or a car accident. Or something completley unrelated.

However, I think theres a risk that this could seem cheap to the readers. or it could take them out of the story if you gave them knowledge the other characters didn't have.

So I'm not sure how to deal with that.

But that would probably be a better idea.

I'd say for mine, issue 1 is the Stanford incident.

Issues 2 to 4/6ish are debate over the law. And the moderate elements get pushed out and a harsher bill gets passed.

By 10/12ish the fighting starts.

[Spider Symbiote]

Wasn't this thread meant to be about how you (the poster) would have done Civil War...?

All I see so far is the same old debate that's been raging here for the last several months...

[nolanjwerner]

Well, I don't know this at all- but could the different types of early humans breed together?
Not sure of the terms, but I think cro-magnon man was different species than one of the others, or whatever the order of them were-but my point is, I think they might have cross-bred.



Honestly, I'd probably go with yes. However, I think the answer is that no one really knows. I think the further back in time and place you went, the more likely it would be that one could not interbreed.

However, if one rejected the theory of evolution, then a creationist answer would probably have a better chance for no. Especially if one rejected the idea of incest and put in the idea of multiple creations.

[nolanjwerner]

Wasn't this thread meant to be about how you (the poster) would have done Civil War...?

All I see so far is the same old debate that's been raging here for the last several months...



Well how would you have approached it?

I'm actually trying to do more story oriented questions.

[1603]

I think we're saying how we'd change it.

[nolanjwerner]

I think we're saying how we'd change it.



I was focusing on the similar events but showing that they could have been avoided. Which is something that I think CW didn't really even mention at all.

Im not sure how politically expedient my version would be. I mean we're in "support the troops" land here.

[Cryptic]

NSHR Act would actually make sense as a law (and seem like one, even with all the "pork" that unfortunately happens when any law is passed in this country) instead of what Marvel did, which was just the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded room:


Would have set up a new national organization that can dedicate all its resources to working with heroes instead of diverting an organization with an international purview. The new org would be crafted to be prominent in the Marvel Universe, with heroes assigned coordinators or handlers that can become supporting cast.
New organization would arrest villains subdued by registered heroes. Those with criminal records would have to secure a pardon if they wanted to become registered, so there wouldn't be any hiring of supervillains to chase down one's friends.
Occassional lifesaving acts by superpowered individuals would be covered by the Good Samaritan Act... the NSHR only covers those that make a "career" of superheroing.
The NSHR's enforcing organization would actually work to protect secret identities and assist registered heroes in doing so.
The NSHR's first director would be someone that has both the trust of the people and the heroes to ease its transition.
Would have provisions so that the new org can vouch for a hero's identity in private so that his testimony can be admitted in court or entered into a legislative record. Technically, criminals would still have the right to be faced with their accuser... but that accuser can be entered into the public record as Spider-Man, not Peter Parker (for example) to protect the heroes and citizens connected to them.
Would have provisions that cover damages incurred by the hero acting as a licensed or registered "contracting agent" of the new org.
Would explicitly state that a roll of registered heroes cannot be used as a tool for a military draft, and that the new org is not obligated to share a heroes identity or their files on a hero with anyone outside of their government department, the Department of Justice. The Defense Department, and any other governmental department, must coordinate with the new org if they want to request a hero's services.
Would give registered heroes limited authority to coordinate local law enforcement to enact evacuations, clear an area, searches, effect rescues, and other such activity as a Federal agent until such a time as their government coordinator can show up to assist.
Monitoring coordinators assigned to a hero or heroes would dispatch containment teams to arrest the hero's opponent and try to contain any hazardous situations.


...among other things.

Joe Q said that going into the details of the actual law would be boring. Well, that's exactly why so many storylines at Marvel ring hollow these last several years, JQ, you're treating your audience as though they're all stupid and can't even handle small doses of plot points and complications. So you've got yourself saying, basically, "Let's make a series about heroes fighting heroes over a law, but not go into details over the law because our readers can't handle that."

You don't have to devote whole issues to this or have "Civil War: the C-SPAN issue" to get all of the above out. A lot of it could be worked into passing dialog and arguments, in commentary made by narrative characters like reporters (that often show up in these types of series, and so forth.

Instead of trying to squeeze in six to seven years of criticism and debate over terrorism and government into a seven-issue miniseries, make it reflect more the debate over whether or not to go to war in Iraq that should have happened before we went to war, for example. A much more concise, but no less serious, parallel to model things after... without turning anyone into Joseph McCarthy, or Josef Mengele, or throwing people into interdimensional gulags for life without trial.

In keeping with that, there is deception and betrayal... some heroes lie to other heroes or misrepresent themselves or their intentions. Distrust is sown for the Marvel Universe that would pervade for many years to come and affect teams, partnerships, friendships, etc... but without going to the "how are they going to come back from that?" extremes of the current Civil War.

So why would there be conflict if the law was better? I'd make the "Civil War" happen before the NHSR is actually passed... there are disagreements on some proposals for the bill, people are paranoid about it as its being proposed, and as happens in comic books people overreact and fight each other... even as they try to pull strings and influence people to push or nix the act before it gets passed, or try to work in their own pet causes and provisions. There would be plenty of fighting, but this Civil War would be a lot more "civil."

For instance, the worst I'd have Tony Stark do is have him believe that it's a foregone conclusion that the NSHRA is going to pass, and he tries to work to get contracts for his corporation behind the scenes to provide tech for the organization that will enact it. He'd come to blows with his friends because while they're concerned about the upcoming law, it looks like he's looking to make a profit from it while at the same time he's telling his friends he's against it... and since we're talking about a superhuman regulation and enforcement government org, that would include things like power-inhibiting restraints, perhaps specific restraining devices for certain types of powers (that make people who have similar powers very nervous and possibly come to blows with Stark) and so forth... that some people would fight violently to keep out of certain hands (for instance, X-Men who went through the worst of Genosha, Days of Future Past or the MRA.)

Little divisions and disputes like this would fill the series and every corner of the Marvel Universe until everyone is distrustful of or fighting with someone. But the heroes and everyone else involved wouldn't be so stupid as to form what basically amounts to two opposing armies and clash... because it should be obvious that doing that is as potentially dangerous as what happened in Stamford. It would be more of a "cold" civil war that sets a foundation for a changing Marvel Universe, instead of trying to appeal to fanboyish "VS." scenarios where they just beat each other up and trample all over their principles to provide an excuse to beat each other up.

Keeping the tone manageable also means you can create lasting changes instead of what they're actually doing in Civil War, where the tone and pacing makes these over-the-top characterizations and actions necessary... and also makes it necessary to retcon or gloss over them almost immediately after because you've gone too far in hyping your series.

There will always be those paranoid types that are going to go against it no matter what... and they will be a problem before and after the passing. The X-Men, with their experiences over the Mutant Registration Act, would not just sit back for five issues or more and see what happens, declare neutrality, etc. Because of their experiences, they are among those paranoid types mentioned above.

Ultimately, Civil War would be something that heroes can walk away from and still be heroes to everyone... although there would be repurcussions, distrust, animosity and hurt feelings that persist between them. It wouldn't be so extreme that you have to sweep it under the rug and retcon a year later.

There would be lasting changes. When I look at a fight scene from Might Avengers that takes place after Civil War, it looks just as destructive, dangerous, and unrestrained as superhero fights in New York before the act... so what the hell were they fighting over? How much property has been destroyed and how many people are endangered during Civil War, and in fighting it? It doesn't look like any special precautions are taken, no procedures, no attempts to call authorities to evacuate an area during a fight, no attempt to divert the fight to unpopulated areas... so what the hell is the pro side accomplishing? With the way it's actually presented in the comics, nothing changes.

Eventually, in the end, the heroes would come together... their efforts to influence or stop the bill turning it into something reasonable, something that actually helps rather than hinders superheroes, and gives them legal rights and recognition they didn't have before.

So, they could have had a new government organization for the setting and a whole slew of potential characters to introduce across the MU, new plot complications for heroes but also new plot contrivances for them to move things along, some edgy disputes that shake up team lineups and relationships, a few fights here and there... or you could have Clor, Negative Zone gulags, McCarthyism-supporting heroes, heroes spying on the private lives of their assistants and then charging in to attack them in the presence of their families (even though you're supposed to be doing all this to protect civilians) and everything else that is going on in Civil War that will generate lots of hype short term, but probably just present the illusion of change when it's all done and turn a lot of people off to your properties, such as Iron Man and Fantastic Four. Am I missing something?

[rabbitman]

can we please let the series finish before threads like this spawn!!!

[nolanjwerner]

Cryptic, your law was the one I meant by the moderate law. And I would show how that gets phased out by politics and the law that gets passed is a harmful one.

[johnnyrocket]

2) the Superhero Registration Act shouldn't require anyone to work for SHIELD/the government or face imprisonment. Superpowered folks who don't want to leave the country OR work for the gov't should be allowed to just register their name/powers and be able to live like civilians, with good samaritan laws applied to them (IE, if they see a Doombot about to blow up a civilian, they can beat up the doombot without fear of gov't reprisals.)[/QUOTE]


This is a pretty dead on assessment. However, I'll play along with your question based on what we currently know about the series and assuming Hate Monger or something isn't going to show up to explain hinky character behavior in the last three issues. Let me say up front that I also think the Pro side has a valid point but the execution of it is way off the mark.

Specific shifts in story:

1. Not bill it as an even philisophical fight when it's not being written that way. Remember, Cap's acting the way he's acting because SHIELD attacked him BEFORE the act was even passed. Just the first of many red flags to come from the 'above the law' tactics that have been used to defend a new law.

2. Peter's ID. Instead, have him register, and then have the Reg list compromised and Peter scrambling to protect his name from getting into the hands of enemies. Classic Spiderman back fire and angst is served with out Peter giving up his only sanctuary (secret ID) to the national press on his own. Yeah, yeah, 'what great stories you can tell' for about 18 months and then what? The core of the character has been more irreversibly altered than when he got married. Marvel will regret this.

3. When Thor appears its the REAL Thor. ..And he sides with Captain America turning the tide of the war as a matter of honor without resorting to the gratuitous death of a minor hero to further show how out of control.. or the gratuitous use of a 'Clor' because the writer just 'had to have Thor in there somewhere.'

4. Peter still switches sides when he realizes the government can't protect his family.


Lastly a comment:

Ya know A LOT of these same themes were covered ten years ago in Kingdom Come when younger heroes became irresponsible while older, respected heroes clashed on how to deal with it. You had fears and actions in the name of security. You had a mass population killing as a result of overzealous heroes, you had 'hero hunts,' you had a super gulag for non cooperative heroes, you had a classic philisophical arguement between the two great icons of the DC Universe. It's all there. So you see, this can be done making each side seem fair, balanced, and have a valid point...

[nolanjwerner]

Actually, I thought KC was biased in favour of the establishment.

[johnnyrocket]

NSHR Act would actually make sense as a law (and seem like one, even with all the "pork" that unfortunately happens when any law is passed in this country) instead of what Marvel did, which was just the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded room:


Would have set up a new national organization that can dedicate all its resources to working with heroes instead of diverting an organization with an international purview. The new org would be crafted to be prominent in the Marvel Universe, with heroes assigned coordinators or handlers that can become supporting cast.
New organization would arrest villains subdued by registered heroes. Those with criminal records would have to secure a pardon if they wanted to become registered, so there wouldn't be any hiring of supervillains to chase down one's friends.
Occassional lifesaving acts by superpowered individuals would be covered by the Good Samaritan Act... the NSHR only covers those that make a "career" of superheroing.
The NSHR's enforcing organization would actually work to protect secret identities and assist registered heroes in doing so.
The NSHR's first director would be someone that has both the trust of the people and the heroes to ease its transition.
Would have provisions so that the new org can vouch for a hero's identity in private so that his testimony can be admitted in court or entered into a legislative record. Technically, criminals would still have the right to be faced with their accuser... but that accuser can be entered into the public record as Spider-Man, not Peter Parker (for example) to protect the heroes and citizens connected to them.
Would have provisions that cover damages incurred by the hero acting as a licensed or registered "contracting agent" of the new org.
Would explicitly state that a roll of registered heroes cannot be used as a tool for a military draft, and that the new org is not obligated to share a heroes identity or their files on a hero with anyone outside of their government department, the Department of Justice. The Defense Department, and any other governmental department, must coordinate with the new org if they want to request a hero's services.
Would give registered heroes limited authority to coordinate local law enforcement to enact evacuations, clear an area, searches, effect rescues, and other such activity as a Federal agent until such a time as their government coordinator can show up to assist.
Monitoring coordinators assigned to a hero or heroes would dispatch containment teams to arrest the hero's opponent and try to contain any hazardous situations.


...among other things.

Joe Q said that going into the details of the actual law would be boring. Well, that's exactly why so many storylines at Marvel ring hollow these last several years, JQ, you're treating your audience as though they're all stupid and can't even handle small doses of plot points and complications. So you've got yourself saying, basically, "Let's make a series about heroes fighting heroes over a law, but not go into details over the law because our readers can't handle that."

You don't have to devote whole issues to this or have "Civil War: the C-SPAN issue" to get all of the above out. A lot of it could be worked into passing dialog and arguments, in commentary made by narrative characters like reporters (that often show up in these types of series, and so forth.

Instead of trying to squeeze in six to seven years of criticism and debate over terrorism and government into a seven-issue miniseries, make it reflect more the debate over whether or not to go to war in Iraq that should have happened before we went to war, for example. A much more concise, but no less serious, parallel to model things after... without turning anyone into Joseph McCarthy, or Josef Mengele, or throwing people into interdimensional gulags for life without trial.

In keeping with that, there is deception and betrayal... some heroes lie to other heroes or misrepresent themselves or their intentions. Distrust is sown for the Marvel Universe that would pervade for many years to come and affect teams, partnerships, friendships, etc... but without going to the "how are they going to come back from that?" extremes of the current Civil War.

So why would there be conflict if the law was better? I'd make the "Civil War" happen before the NHSR is actually passed... there are disagreements on some proposals for the bill, people are paranoid about it as its being proposed, and as happens in comic books people overreact and fight each other... even as they try to pull strings and influence people to push or nix the act before it gets passed, or try to work in their own pet causes and provisions. There would be plenty of fighting, but this Civil War would be a lot more "civil."

For instance, the worst I'd have Tony Stark do is have him believe that it's a foregone conclusion that the NSHRA is going to pass, and he tries to work to get contracts for his corporation behind the scenes to provide tech for the organization that will enact it. He'd come to blows with his friends because while they're concerned about the upcoming law, it looks like he's looking to make a profit from it while at the same time he's telling his friends he's against it... and since we're talking about a superhuman regulation and enforcement government org, that would include things like power-inhibiting restraints, perhaps specific restraining devices for certain types of powers (that make people who have similar powers very nervous and possibly come to blows with Stark) and so forth... that some people would fight violently to keep out of certain hands (for instance, X-Men who went through the worst of Genosha, Days of Future Past or the MRA.)

Little divisions and disputes like this would fill the series and every corner of the Marvel Universe until everyone is distrustful of or fighting with someone. But the heroes and everyone else involved wouldn't be so stupid as to form what basically amounts to two opposing armies and clash... because it should be obvious that doing that is as potentially dangerous as what happened in Stamford. It would be more of a "cold" civil war that sets a foundation for a changing Marvel Universe, instead of trying to appeal to fanboyish "VS." scenarios where they just beat each other up and trample all over their principles to provide an excuse to beat each other up.

Keeping the tone manageable also means you can create lasting changes instead of what they're actually doing in Civil War, where the tone and pacing makes these over-the-top characterizations and actions necessary... and also makes it necessary to retcon or gloss over them almost immediately after because you've gone too far in hyping your series.

There will always be those paranoid types that are going to go against it no matter what... and they will be a problem before and after the passing. The X-Men, with their experiences over the Mutant Registration Act, would not just sit back for five issues or more and see what happens, declare neutrality, etc. Because of their experiences, they are among those paranoid types mentioned above.

Ultimately, Civil War would be something that heroes can walk away from and still be heroes to everyone... although there would be repurcussions, distrust, animosity and hurt feelings that persist between them. It wouldn't be so extreme that you have to sweep it under the rug and retcon a year later.

There would be lasting changes. When I look at a fight scene from Might Avengers that takes place after Civil War, it looks just as destructive, dangerous, and unrestrained as superhero fights in New York before the act... so what the hell were they fighting over? How much property has been destroyed and how many people are endangered during Civil War, and in fighting it? It doesn't look like any special precautions are taken, no procedures, no attempts to call authorities to evacuate an area during a fight, no attempt to divert the fight to unpopulated areas... so what the hell is the pro side accomplishing? With the way it's actually presented in the comics, nothing changes.

Eventually, in the end, the heroes would come together... their efforts to influence or stop the bill turning it into something reasonable, something that actually helps rather than hinders superheroes, and gives them legal rights and recognition they didn't have before.

So, they could have had a new government organization for the setting and a whole slew of potential characters to introduce across the MU, new plot complications for heroes but also new plot contrivances for them to move things along, some edgy disputes that shake up team lineups and relationships, a few fights here and there... or you could have Clor, Negative Zone gulags, McCarthyism-supporting heroes, heroes spying on the private lives of their assistants and then charging in to attack them in the presence of their families (even though you're supposed to be doing all this to protect civilians) and everything else that is going on in Civil War that will generate lots of hype short term, but probably just present the illusion of change when it's all done and turn a lot of people off to your properties, such as Iron Man and Fantastic Four. Am I missing something?

Dear Marvel, hire this guy.

[nolanjwerner]

Dear Marvel, hire this guy.


Ha.

Actually his approach to CW works pretty well. Although I would be concerned that he takes a side by not taking a side on an issue like this. I think hed give a good proposal.


Although I like mine, where more time is taken and the pro retg side is shown to gradually radicalize and they turn to gestapo tactics not as a necessity but because they were enforcing a law that needed it.

[LucasSiegel]

It's only 4 issues out of 7 done! that's just over half way! We can't do it differently until we know how it's done. sheesh.

[1603]

Ha.

Actually his approach to CW works pretty well. Although I would be concerned that he takes a side by not taking a side on an issue like this. I think hed give a good proposal.


Although I like mine, where more time is taken and the pro retg side is shown to gradually radicalize and they turn to gestapo tactics not as a necessity but because they were enforcing a law that needed it.

Why not the anti side?

[1603]

It's only 4 issues out of 7 done! that's just over half way! We can't do it differently until we know how it's done. sheesh.

Why, four issues worth of it are in the books. We know what has happened at this point, and what we would have changed.

[MotleyDrue07]

I woulda made marvel team up the best book on the stands with all the hero fights that would be in there. Thats what i wanted til it got cancelled. :(

[RedRonin]

Well first off, I would have the Young Avengers cause the explosion. That would give a reason for Captain America and Iron Man to be at the front of this argument. There would actually be a connection between them and Stamford.

Secondly, no one aligns themselves with SHIELD. I feel that was one of the biggest mistakes that easily vilified the Pro-Reg side.

Thirdly, and this is really important, state EXACTLY what registering means and who it applies too. None of this drafting superheroes nonsense. I would make it to incorporate viglantism too. Make superheroing a job. Put an age limit on it. Make them more like super-cops. But I would still have the aspect of anyone with powers registering as well.

So if the law passed, those that were Pro-Reg would register while Cap and his group would go underground to hide from SHIELD. Iron Man and his side would not hunt down the Anti-Reg people, but they they would still try to find Cap and his group to try and show them why they feel they should register and vice versa.

Then SHIELD might show up cause they followed Tony and co. This could lead to one of those wacky misunderstanding fights, where Captain America thinks Iron Man lead them there. And the only one who come off looking like a-holes are SHIELD and they're headed up by Hill and she's always been a bit bitch so it's in character.

[nolanjwerner]

Why not the anti side?



Because I would start with the event and then show how it went from there. The fighting wouldn't even really begin until issue 12-15 or so.

Because I think that the anti reg side people were forced in to this to defend their rights as human beings. And thats where they are coming from. With the first law (the moderate one) there would have been some complaining but no real outright rebellion (especially since there would be significant questions as to whether it could even pass). And then a harsher one gets introduced by a mutant phobic representative trying to get some kudos with the right. And then more protests start.

[Cryptic]

Well first off, I would have the Young Avengers cause the explosion. That would give a reason for Captain America and Iron Man to be at the front of this argument. There would actually be a connection between them and Stamford.

Secondly, no one aligns themselves with SHIELD. I feel that was one of the biggest mistakes that easily vilified the Pro-Reg side.

Thirdly, and this is really important, state EXACTLY what registering means and who it applies too. None of this drafting superheroes nonsense. I would make it to incorporate viglantism too. Make superheroing a job. Put an age limit on it. Make them more like super-cops. But I would still have the aspect of anyone with powers registering as well.

So if the law passed, those that were Pro-Reg would register while Cap and his group would go underground to hide from SHIELD. Iron Man and his side would not hunt down the Anti-Reg people, but they they would still try to find Cap and his group to try and show them why they feel they should register and vice versa.

Then SHIELD might show up cause they followed Tony and co. This could lead to one of those wacky misunderstanding fights, where Captain America thinks Iron Man lead them there. And the only one who come off looking like a-holes are SHIELD and they're headed up by Hill and she's always been a bit bitch so it's in character.

Exactly the kind of "moderate" response that would probably actually draw me back into the comics shops instead of waiting for trades and getting spoiled by internet spoilers, reviews, and page scans.

Wanted to add some specifics to what I was saying:

The NSHR's first director would be someone that has both the trust of the people and the heroes to ease its transition.

My choice for that man would be Sam Wilson, the Falcon. Former social worker and hero that has worked with government liasons in the past as an Avenger. The proposal of the registration act would turn Sam into a vocal activist, actively lobbying and campaigning Washington to make a reasonable registration act that protects rights and helps heroes do their jobs. He'd have heroes on both sides of the debate trying to bend his ear and influence him, and it would put a strain on his relationships (ie, Cap.) Not so much because they betray each other a la Cap and Tony, but because of Cap's aversion to heroes getting involved in politics. Sam would be getting po'd at all the heroes trying to influence him, as he was always C-list to them until he became the prominent activist on this. As a public figure, he would become the superhuman Dr. Martin Luther King, in a sense, and politicians would tap him as the new regulating organization's director to try to ease concerns over the bill.

As things heat up, perhaps some questionable second or third tier character (like a Magneto type, maybe Mystique) would think that because Sam is human he doesn't understand what is at stake, and kidnaps him as his popularity as a social movement leader is growing, for the purpose of mutating him into something not human. He's recovering when the bill is passed, and much of what's in it is thanks to his activist leadership, when he's shocked to learn that he's been provisionally picked to head up the new effort. He sees this whole movement grow up around him because he's trying to do the right thing, then gets yanked off the field, and when he comes back he has this thrust on him. Could even base a new series out of it, with him trying to lead this new organization and deal with what's been done to him.

Would have set up a new national organization that can dedicate all its resources to working with heroes instead of diverting an organization with an international purview. The new org would be crafted to be prominent in the Marvel Universe, with heroes assigned coordinators or handlers that can become supporting cast.

The heroes and their government-assigned agency coordinators are only "human," and so there will be some awkward or even adversarial relationships that would be able to play out throughout Marvel. After CW when I would have the act pass (in the last issue), heroes in their own books would try to ditch their handlers or sneak around on them, argue with them... but everyone gets a new supporting cast member in one way or another to shake things up. Val Cooper would get assigned to the X-Men group as a special coordinating assistant to Sam Wilson on mutant affairs... get rid of the Sentinels camped out on the lawn, but now they have a nosy, interfering government administrator with a shaky X-Men history practically living in the mansion with them. To keep Spider-Man light, and since he's got enough problems that he hasn't even begun to address, he might have a hero-worshipping amatuer assigned to him... a government agent "Jimmy Olsen" in a sense, but one that is compromised between doing his duty and kissing his favorite hero's ass. Peter's annoyed, but Aunt May simply adores the bumbling, fawning kid and they argue when Pete seems like he's being mean to him.

New organization would arrest villains subdued by registered heroes. Those with criminal records would have to secure a pardon if they wanted to become registered, so there wouldn't be any hiring of supervillains to chase down one's friends.

This would have the added effect, when the law is passed at the end of the series, of forcing many heroes with legal problems to try to get that official pardon so they can go on being heroes... with some of them ignoring the law entirely and that playing out in their own series instead of a universe-wide mutual smackdown in the mini.

Dear Marvel, hire this guy.

Thanks. I thought this would go over like a fart in church, honestly. I somehow doubt I'd have much of a career in comics, though.

[ghostly1]

All of this is off the top of my head, not terribly organized, but some general ideas.

I'd even up the sides a little. I'd leave the law a little unreasonable at least to start with, to allow more conflict about it (everyone with powers _would_ have to register... and instead of being virtually ignored, this would be one of the key parts of the disagreement). By the time the whole thing shakes out, you'd only have to register if you actively fight crime with your abilities, or if you commit them.

Because the pro side, save for the 'register people based on factors they can't control' aspect, which I think is morally wrong, is actually a more reasonable outlook, I'd probably make registered users being used more as a tool of the government. Not in 'the government so eeevil!' ways, but like another poster said, have them forced to let up on a particular villain because of political considerations, or forced to go after a villain on foreign soil in a diplomatically sticky situation, as pretext for getting into the country. Not to mention things like being 'volunteered' to subject themselves to scans and all sorts of tests to help the government replicate or enhance their powers.

There would be no organized 'hero hunt'. This, IMHO, is the stupidest aspect of the series, hunting down unregistered heroes and locking them up. If the pro-reg side hunted villains half as hard as they're hunting heroes in CW (and treated them anything like they treat unregistered heroes), there'd be no debate - they'd be so few villains left for the unregistered heroes to actually do any 'heroing'. Registered heroes are theoretically required by law to arrest any unregistered superhero they see who've taken vigilante action, but only if they can do so without danger, but pursuing violent criminals is always a higher priority. The punishment for violating the law wouldn't be severe, except for the fact that their secret identity would be revealed to the world and a matter of public record (which many of the anti-reg heroes would be opposed to).

I think I'd actually have a anti-reg hero kill a pro-reg one, but in a very debatable way, where it could be argued that it was an unforseeable accident, or was self-defense against overwhelmingly brutal force on the dead pro-regger's side. This would be the big flashpoint, where the pro-reg heroes actively go on the hunt for this hero, considering him a criminal and anybody who supports him guilty of aiding and abbetting him, while the anti-reggers want to protect him because they know he's a good guy. And of course, there's still people like mutants who are fighting for the principle of the thing (since it's mutant registration, and I don't care if there are only 198 mutants and they government knows about most of them anyway - that makes it _worse_, not better). The anti-regger 'murderer' might actually wind up being killed in retaliation by someone particularly close to the pro-reg victim.

The debate would also be a lot more fierce in the public mind, too - the act wouldn't be overwhelmingly passed, the citizenry would be divided on it, spurred on by incidents where an unregistered hero didn't get involved when supercriminals attacked because it would be illegal.

Spidey wouldn't announce his identity publicly, but would register, and all the 'secret' superhero identities would become stolen and public, and villains would beging targetting them in their secret IDs to wipe them out - this is where the anti-reggers start coming into their own - they're unregistered, so they're the only ones safe.

[Dalarsco]

I like how it's going ofr the most part. I would only make one subtle change. Reed shouldn't be so extreme on his support ofr the SHRA. He should support it in light of Stamford, but have serious doubts about it like Peter.

[P.D.H]

I'd start it out so biased that the Pro-Side consisted of George Bush, Maria Hill and Hitler. Their policies are every bit as OTT, unreasonable and draconian as we would expect them to be. All the heroes would start off Anti-Reg. Every attempt to legislate them would fail utterly and immediately. This would be consistent with the Marvel U up to this point.

The government resorts to it's tried and tested standby - send the Sentinels in - only this time they target everything super. You know Cap isn't gonna put up with any of that. So the Sentinels would be destroyed easily.

The government now have nothing.

They're powerless.

They're irrelevant.

The public are scared out of their fragile conservative minds. Gods are walking among them unchecked, blasting the hell out of eachother.

They are not safe.

No-one can protect them.

Now, the superheroes never actually seize control. They just got landed with it by default. But no-one can deny that this is a pretty scary situation to be in. This takes place over issues 1 and 2, bolstered by Frontline (1-4?) which mostly deals with reporters wetting themselves. In Frontline 4 JJJ tries his best to bring the superheroes down. He uses every trick in his sleazy little book - I mean he goes Spider Jerusalem on their ass. Eventually, he finds out Spider-Man's ID and blackmails him with it. Nice situation playing on their shared history.

Issue 3 is solely from the position of the general public. Jubilee to be precise, who is in a position to see things from both sides. She watches Spider-Man unmask on TV to show that he is above JJJ's blackmail attempts. She watches the public go f-cking nuts. Now the Superheroes aren't even afraid of being exposed! They're totally above the law. This throws a much more disturbing spin on the unmasking situation. Jubilee decides that it's wrong and joins a gang of people who want to do something about it. The Punisher is among them so you can guess how this turns out.

Big fight. Massive casualties. Thor (the real one) has (accidentally?) murdered Jubilee! (She'll be brought back in a few years with powers, don't worry).

NOW the sides split up. In Issue 4 (exactly half way through). The X-Men are actually involved and - irony of ironies - they are on the Pro-Reg side! Avenging Jubilee's death. Both sides have a legitimate reason to fight.

And I think this is where we came in.

[nolanjwerner]

Okay, new idea for it.

I start off every issue with something I picked up from the Osamu Tezuka Astro Boy collections. I start by discussing the issue and pointing out that I'm the most important part of it.

[Calax]

If I were to pull it off I'd AT THE VERY LEAST give the Pro reg a good poster boy that they can show off and say "It works!"

Probably Sentry given he's got more power than writers know what to do with, He's a bit schizo, and he's photogenic. The first adds go on tv to get this to work and you get a flood of people registering to try to be like him, meanwhile others are cynical and say he'd just a floozy. But at least we'd get a grasp on sentry outside his own minis and on what his powers are (I've seen them described four different ways... so far) and he'd start to come to grips with who and what he is.

[Prometheus3]

If I were writing Civil War I would not have Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Hank Pym building a prison to put heroes in the Negative Zone. If I were going to involve Thor at all, I would have the real Thor intervene in Issue #3 and kick everyone's ass. I definitely would not have the Pro-Registration side enlist the help of super-villains to fight Captain America's forces but instead would have the cover of Civil War #5 lead to a huge amount of villains attacking Spider-Man and him getting help at the last minute from Iron Man's forces. Last of all I would not have the Pro-Registration side cloning Thor or any other super-heroes.

I wouldn't have Civil War Frontline be so biased and I would take out the annoying tasteless real world comparisons at the end of every issue.

[nolanjwerner]

If I were writing Civil War I would not have Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Hank Pym building a prison to put heroes in the Negative Zone. If I were going to involve Thor at all, I would have the real Thor intervene in Issue #3 and kick everyone's ass. I definitely would not have the Pro-Registration side enlist the help of super-villains to fight Captain America's forces but instead would have the cover of Civil War #5 lead to a huge amount of villains attacking Spider-Man and him getting help at the last minute from Iron Man's forces. Last of all I would not have the Pro-Registration side cloning Thor or any other super-heroes.

I wouldn't have Civil War Frontline be so biased and I would take out the annoying tasteless real world comparisons at the end of every issue.


Actually, it would make more sense for the anti reg side to enlist a few supervillians to help them.

But Id leave the pro reg side to recruit cleanskins.

[AlejandroR3]

NSHR Act would actually make sense as a law (and seem like one, even with all the "pork" that unfortunately happens when any law is passed in this country) instead of what Marvel did, which was just the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded room:


Would have set up a new national organization that can dedicate all its resources to working with heroes instead of diverting an organization with an international purview. The new org would be crafted to be prominent in the Marvel Universe, with heroes assigned coordinators or handlers that can become supporting cast.
New organization would arrest villains subdued by registered heroes. Those with criminal records would have to secure a pardon if they wanted to become registered, so there wouldn't be any hiring of supervillains to chase down one's friends.
Occassional lifesaving acts by superpowered individuals would be covered by the Good Samaritan Act... the NSHR only covers those that make a "career" of superheroing.
The NSHR's enforcing organization would actually work to protect secret identities and assist registered heroes in doing so.
The NSHR's first director would be someone that has both the trust of the people and the heroes to ease its transition.
Would have provisions so that the new org can vouch for a hero's identity in private so that his testimony can be admitted in court or entered into a legislative record. Technically, criminals would still have the right to be faced with their accuser... but that accuser can be entered into the public record as Spider-Man, not Peter Parker (for example) to protect the heroes and citizens connected to them.
Would have provisions that cover damages incurred by the hero acting as a licensed or registered "contracting agent" of the new org.
Would explicitly state that a roll of registered heroes cannot be used as a tool for a military draft, and that the new org is not obligated to share a heroes identity or their files on a hero with anyone outside of their government department, the Department of Justice. The Defense Department, and any other governmental department, must coordinate with the new org if they want to request a hero's services.
Would give registered heroes limited authority to coordinate local law enforcement to enact evacuations, clear an area, searches, effect rescues, and other such activity as a Federal agent until such a time as their government coordinator can show up to assist.
Monitoring coordinators assigned to a hero or heroes would dispatch containment teams to arrest the hero's opponent and try to contain any hazardous situations.


...among other things.

Joe Q said that going into the details of the actual law would be boring. Well, that's exactly why so many storylines at Marvel ring hollow these last several years, JQ, you're treating your audience as though they're all stupid and can't even handle small doses of plot points and complications. So you've got yourself saying, basically, "Let's make a series about heroes fighting heroes over a law, but not go into details over the law because our readers can't handle that."

You don't have to devote whole issues to this or have "Civil War: the C-SPAN issue" to get all of the above out. A lot of it could be worked into passing dialog and arguments, in commentary made by narrative characters like reporters (that often show up in these types of series, and so forth.

Instead of trying to squeeze in six to seven years of criticism and debate over terrorism and government into a seven-issue miniseries, make it reflect more the debate over whether or not to go to war in Iraq that should have happened before we went to war, for example. A much more concise, but no less serious, parallel to model things after... without turning anyone into Joseph McCarthy, or Josef Mengele, or throwing people into interdimensional gulags for life without trial.

In keeping with that, there is deception and betrayal... some heroes lie to other heroes or misrepresent themselves or their intentions. Distrust is sown for the Marvel Universe that would pervade for many years to come and affect teams, partnerships, friendships, etc... but without going to the "how are they going to come back from that?" extremes of the current Civil War.

So why would there be conflict if the law was better? I'd make the "Civil War" happen before the NHSR is actually passed... there are disagreements on some proposals for the bill, people are paranoid about it as its being proposed, and as happens in comic books people overreact and fight each other... even as they try to pull strings and influence people to push or nix the act before it gets passed, or try to work in their own pet causes and provisions. There would be plenty of fighting, but this Civil War would be a lot more "civil."

For instance, the worst I'd have Tony Stark do is have him believe that it's a foregone conclusion that the NSHRA is going to pass, and he tries to work to get contracts for his corporation behind the scenes to provide tech for the organization that will enact it. He'd come to blows with his friends because while they're concerned about the upcoming law, it looks like he's looking to make a profit from it while at the same time he's telling his friends he's against it... and since we're talking about a superhuman regulation and enforcement government org, that would include things like power-inhibiting restraints, perhaps specific restraining devices for certain types of powers (that make people who have similar powers very nervous and possibly come to blows with Stark) and so forth... that some people would fight violently to keep out of certain hands (for instance, X-Men who went through the worst of Genosha, Days of Future Past or the MRA.)

Little divisions and disputes like this would fill the series and every corner of the Marvel Universe until everyone is distrustful of or fighting with someone. But the heroes and everyone else involved wouldn't be so stupid as to form what basically amounts to two opposing armies and clash... because it should be obvious that doing that is as potentially dangerous as what happened in Stamford. It would be more of a "cold" civil war that sets a foundation for a changing Marvel Universe, instead of trying to appeal to fanboyish "VS." scenarios where they just beat each other up and trample all over their principles to provide an excuse to beat each other up.

Keeping the tone manageable also means you can create lasting changes instead of what they're actually doing in Civil War, where the tone and pacing makes these over-the-top characterizations and actions necessary... and also makes it necessary to retcon or gloss over them almost immediately after because you've gone too far in hyping your series.

There will always be those paranoid types that are going to go against it no matter what... and they will be a problem before and after the passing. The X-Men, with their experiences over the Mutant Registration Act, would not just sit back for five issues or more and see what happens, declare neutrality, etc. Because of their experiences, they are among those paranoid types mentioned above.

Ultimately, Civil War would be something that heroes can walk away from and still be heroes to everyone... although there would be repurcussions, distrust, animosity and hurt feelings that persist between them. It wouldn't be so extreme that you have to sweep it under the rug and retcon a year later.

There would be lasting changes. When I look at a fight scene from Might Avengers that takes place after Civil War, it looks just as destructive, dangerous, and unrestrained as superhero fights in New York before the act... so what the hell were they fighting over? How much property has been destroyed and how many people are endangered during Civil War, and in fighting it? It doesn't look like any special precautions are taken, no procedures, no attempts to call authorities to evacuate an area during a fight, no attempt to divert the fight to unpopulated areas... so what the hell is the pro side accomplishing? With the way it's actually presented in the comics, nothing changes.

Eventually, in the end, the heroes would come together... their efforts to influence or stop the bill turning it into something reasonable, something that actually helps rather than hinders superheroes, and gives them legal rights and recognition they didn't have before.

So, they could have had a new government organization for the setting and a whole slew of potential characters to introduce across the MU, new plot complications for heroes but also new plot contrivances for them to move things along, some edgy disputes that shake up team lineups and relationships, a few fights here and there... or you could have Clor, Negative Zone gulags, McCarthyism-supporting heroes, heroes spying on the private lives of their assistants and then charging in to attack them in the presence of their families (even though you're supposed to be doing all this to protect civilians) and everything else that is going on in Civil War that will generate lots of hype short term, but probably just present the illusion of change when it's all done and turn a lot of people off to your properties, such as Iron Man and Fantastic Four. Am I missing something?

Sir, frankly I wish I had a genie in a lamp so I could wish you wrote this story and not Mark Millar.

Brilliant Post.

[nolanjwerner]

Alright, so heres my idea.

Marvel's Answer to 52. 52 issues weekly for a whole year. And if its late its not because I was writing it.

After the first issue, we do an Osamu Tezuka Astro Boy style opening where I (well a guy who looks kind of like me but is better looking) chat with the characters about various things related to the story. Because thats an awesome idea and it puts me, the writer, front and center.

We start off with the Stanford incident.

Then we have a few issues showing mounting anti super sentiment. And the behind the scenes politicking. The more moderate SHRA is squahed and the harsh one is passed in to law.

Then all hell breaks loose.

And at the end, the leaders of the thing, like the leaders of most great in justices, get off scot free. They throw a few small fish to justice but the rift in the super community can never be healed.

[Thunderstorm]

With all of the criticism of it out there, my question is how you would have done it better.

You need to start with the Stanford incident.
And public sentiment building towards the passage of the SHRA in to law.
And Captain America leads the faction against it and Iron Man leads the faction for it.

Past that, you're free to do what you want.

There's the Stanford incident, and the negative public reaction. Iron Man decides to support the Registration Act, but Captain America makes a 2 panel speech to the press about how ridiculous this is in light of how many times these people have saved the whole planet, and the issue ends with everyone going back to their normal lives.

[nolanjwerner]

There's the Stanford incident, and the negative public reaction. Iron Man decides to support the Registration Act, but Captain America makes a 2 panel speech to the press about how ridiculous this is in light of how many times these people have saved the whole planet, and the issue ends with everyone going back to their normal lives.


So Civil Subplot? LOL

I really think Marvel blew it by marketing this as a conflict between two equal sides. In mine, the pro reg side are clearly in the wrong but I also show that it could have been avoided if political expediency and bigotry hadn't taken over and radicalized the thing.

[MoneyMelon]

I would have shown the Pro-Registration side in a more sympathetic light. I think it would have made for a more intersting story if you didn't have a clear good guy and bad guy.

Instead, they compare the Pro-Registration side to nazis in Frontline :rolleyes:

*sigh*

I had much higher expectations than this.

[nolanjwerner]

I would have shown the Pro-Registration side in a more sympathetic light. I think it would have made for a more intersting story if you didn't have a clear good guy and bad guy.

Instead, they compare the Pro-Registration side to nazis in Frontline :rolleyes:

*sigh*

I had much higher expectations than this.



HOw do you show them in a more symmpathetic light?

Its easy to say you would, harder to say how.

My scenario paints most of the pro reg element in a more sympathetic light and shows them as pawns of the powerful leaders who had no care about public safety and a real concern for their own political careers.

[NeoSamurai]

After the Stanford Incident and the funeral where Stark is confronted, I'd have Tony ask his friends how they feel about what happened. Most of the superheroes there would support the act on teh grounds of "with great power comes Great Responsibility" with Peter making the surprising support for Stark. The rationale for this is explored more so in AMS rather than him being persuaded, he feels confident in his surrogate father (Tony) showing that this is a sign of his own personal maturity. However, the notion of him going public (versus government registration) is something that would be discussed later with his family.

Backlash happens against the heroes. Storm gets beaten up in intensive care. A lot of B-listers suffer big time.

Stark begins to rally support for his SHRA while Cap publically confronts him and argues against it.The issue ends with Stark being tasked by the government to hunt down Speedball who has somehow survived.

The next issue begins with an all out and out brawl as Speedball creates more collateral damage while avoiding Stark's team of "deputies" trying to capture the kid. Cap gets involved and defends Speedball arguing with Stark about whether hunting down heroes whenever they make a mistake is a good idea. Stark argues about the need for training and responsibility. Cap points out the carnage that they caused trying to get Speedball instead of just trying to catch him. Stark argues: "If he didn't do anything wrong, why is he running?" Speedball argues: "It wasn't me--it was Nuke. I screwed up, but I did not kill those people." Stark asks Cap to let him take Speedball in because his actions broke the law. Cap argues "Who made you the judge of that?" Stark replies that he has been invested with the power of the US government--the same people who pays for Cap's bills. Cap--at a loss for words--lets Speedball get taken in promising to get Jen Walters to represent him.

Cap reflects on what Stark told him and quits from SHIELD.

Peter comes to Stark to let him know that he wants to do something more than just behind the scenes and mask--he's talked it over with his family and they agree that Peter should go public--not because of the fame, but because of what it can mean for people everywhere. It would inspire younger heroes to register and accept responsibility for their actions--the heroes would realize that they need to be more careful in what they do and that it isn't all fun and games. Conversations come up about Peter's losses, MJ's troubles with villains that know Peter's ID, and they all realize that it would be for the best.

Stark holds a press conference where Peter reveals his ID. The Young Avengers watch what's going on TV as SHIELD plans a tactical strike to take them down.

...and that's how I'd do the first two issues and some of the crossover...

I might do some of the others later...

[BubbaKanoosh]

I'll have to think on this..
but for one, less minis/tie in issues.......

[StevieCool]

To the people who think this shouldn't be a thread - What's wrong with writing a "what if"?

#0 issue - legal rules of the act, with art examples

Changes
* Instead of the New Warriors, have the Avengers there WITH them. It's easy to kick the smallest kid down. Let's put someone who was trying to do the right thing for the right reasons and muck up that grey area a little.

* Instead of Cage getting attacked in his own home, maybe only go after people in masks in a fight, not just "known powerhouses that are watching TV". If you stay out of it, you won't get into it.

* Instead of Super Hero Guantanamo, use a Forge Neutralizer solution. Don't deny any rights, just take away the ability to cause mass destruction.

* Less idiot savants acting like infallible gods. While I agreed with training, the aloof god-among-man-can't-be-wrong attitudes of Pro-Reg makes me hope Hulk comes back and shoves Mr. Fantastic into Iron Man, then squeezes both out like toothpaste. Slowly.

* More people just leaving the country. I would LOVE to see a mass exodus, people setting up shop in other countries, getting recruited, etc. Especially Latveria. South of the Border Avengers has a nice ring to it/

* Public revelation of Hulk, those who shot him off planet in issue 1. Make people conflicted on both sides in addition to Registration.

* Removal of using villains for Pro-Reg. I mean, come on. Is hero training just a two hour course on CD? Can we make pro-reg more evil? I half expect CW #5 to see Stark eating Cage's baby for dinner.

* Instead of Reed's Mcarthyism uncle being deceased, have him be alive and confront Reed.

Just my thoughts...

[MoneyMelon]

HOw do you show them in a more symmpathetic light?

Its easy to say you would, harder to say how.

My scenario paints most of the pro reg element in a more sympathetic light and shows them as pawns of the powerful leaders who had no care about public safety and a real concern for their own political careers.
I would focus more on why one would support the Registration Act. Like maybe showing some examples of the widespread property damage when superheroes have a "misunderstanding" with one another. Then showing what that has cost people.

Or maybe examples of heroes taking things too far. Perhaps killing a suspect or beating someone up who happens to be innocent.

Maybe giving a few examples of young, untrained heroes' actions costing innocent people.

There are a number of ways it could have been done.

[JadeFontaine]

1) The Pro Reg side would be having a harder time of things as debates and arguments over what constitutes the Reg Act is hammered out. Thus making bringing people in, determining what they are being arrested for and or what law they broke very difficult.

2) The Anti side would be showing a stronger case of why they are anti rather than acting on assumptions. (i.e. The don't believe anyone should have to register until a complete and final version of the Reg Act is spelled out.

3) Tony and the Pro side should be developing training 'schools' doing PR to the public and working that angle rather than prisons and threatening friends.

4) Show factions (and only factions) of each side trying to get their own agendas passed or incorporated into the Reg Act. (i.e. Damage Control, SHIELD, Government officials and even groups like The Hand and Hydra) and how each side reacts to each issue.

5) Show how both sides are wrong about certain ideals they are holding to and show what happens when extremists act on those ideals to the exclusion of everything else. Show how the reaction or reactions cause additional hinderances to achieving something worth while and aceptable to each side.

6) Show both Tony and Cap trying to keep their respective sides peaceful and respectful of the opposite side, maybe losing control at different points and times and how they have to rally and re-exert their leadership. This would be met with varying levels of success and failure for each. (i.e. Tony not having the presidents ear or having as much say with SHIELD as he does in the current storyline. Show Tony getting doublecrossed in politics and what is being enforced and how. Have Cap trying to deal with characters like Punisher or breakaway factions who just want to thumb their noses at the law. those who take on a bit of a mob like mentality and feed off the negative attitudes of those around them.)

7) NO CLONE NONSENSE - by either side ofr any reason - not necessary in any way shape or form.

8) Throw a mini bomb into the story by having an off-shoot of the REG Act be that any super criminals caught by an unregistered hero makes the arrest invalid as they were not apprehended by an acknowledged law enforcement 'person/agency' and many criminals go free as a result.

9) Have a court case or two come up regarding responsibility and negligence issues. In one a hero is found guilty of negligence and faces fines and compensation to victims of the fight he/she was in because the villain got away and cannot be found. Show public support for a different hero regardless of damage caused to property etc. Just because the hero showed up and was willing to stand in a villains way from terrorising a neighbourhood or something. (i.e. something the police etc. don't normally show up for or legally can't do anything about unless the criminal is caught in the act etc.).

10) Have the final outcome be a Registration requirement only for those who want to actively participate in vigilantism/hero work. Registrant has a choice of where to train or what group they want to be affiliated (i.e. SHIELD and be more involved in international/government situations requiring a more military like training and reserve/special forces enlistment with SHIELD. The X-Mansion is a training 'school' for mutants or any hero who wants to deal in mutant affairs. The Avengers open a training facility that deals with local to within country type regular superhero work - ala Cage, Daredevil or even Spiderman. FF would train for the intergalactic dimension issues.