View Full Version : DIAMOND'S 2002 RANKINGS
MattBrady
02-06-2003, 03:37 PM
<img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/ultiamtes1.jpg" width="175" height="263" align="right">Diamond has released its 2002 market share and top seller reports for all products invoiced between January and December 2002. There were few surprises, if you keep track of the month-to-month – it was mostly Marvel’s year, with DC and Dreamwave making strong showings with Dark Knight Strikes Again and Transformers respectively.
Again, as with all figures and rankings released by Diamond, the numbers only reflect orders placed by retailers with Diamond accounts, and not books sold, or a global view of the comic and graphic novel market.
Overall, in both dollar and unit share, Marvel was the #1 publisher in 2002 in regards to product ordered through Diamond. The top five publishers for 2002 were:
Publisher, Dollar Share, Unit Share
Marvel 33.61%, 40.52%
DC 28.35%, 29.44%
Image 6.83%, 6.80%
Dark Horse 6.52%, 4.62%
CrossGen 3.21%, 3.21%
The numbers for both unit and dollar share are actual sales, that is, both the dollar and unit shares reflect both initial orders as well as reorders placed within calendar year 2002. Unit share is a measure of the quantity of comic product ordered through Diamond, while dollar share is a measure of value of product moved, that is, the percentage each publisher makes up of dollars generated by comic sales through Diamond in 2002.
Industry followers won’t see much to raise eyebrows about in the top five publishers, aside from the discrepancy between Marvel and the other publishers in unit share, despite the fact that DC publishes more books than Marvel.
The reasons for the 11 point difference in unit share and only five point difference in dollar share will be explained below, but it largely attributed to The Dark Knight Strikes Again, each issue of which carried a $7.95 price tag.
Other items of note on the dollar/unit share for publishers were the relatively small unit and dollar share Tokyopop has through Diamond, 0.62% and 1.33%, respectively, placing it ninth on the list of publishers, behind Viz.
For the full list of publishers in 2002, click <a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Top1002002.htm" target="_blank"> here</a>.
2002 was an atypical (or perhaps the first of what will now be seen as typical) year in regards of the Top 100 comics sold, as both Marvel and DC published promotional issues (Batman: The Ten-Cent Adventure and Fantastic Four #60), and DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, and Image produced comics for Free Comic Book Day.
Given the one-time nature of such items, Diamond did not rank them among the rest of the Top 100 for the year, but did list them in quantity rank (but again, did not list numbers). All of the below promotional books ranked higher in quantity than the #1 selling book for the year, which is hardly a surprise, given the multiple hundreds of thousands the promotional and FCBD titles were reportedly ordered.
The promotional books ranked (in terms of quantity) as follows:
1) Batman: The 10-Cent Adventure
2) FCBD Ultimate Spider-Man #1
3) Fantastic Four #60
4) FCBD Star Wars Tales: Jedi’s Weapon
5) FCBD Justice League Adventures #1
In terms of quantity, the FCBD Tomb Raider produced by Image fell between #10 and #11 for 2002, and Gen13 #0 fell between #25 and #26.
In regards to regular comic products for 2002, the Top 10 in terms of quantity was:
1) Ultimates #1
2) Dark Knight Strikes Again #2
3) Transformers G1 #2
4) Origin #4
5) Transformers G1 #1
6) Origin #5
7) Origin #6
8) Batman #608
9) Dark Knight Strikes Again #3
10) Transformers G1 #3
The Top 10 in terms of retail (dollar) rank was:
1) Dark Knight Strikes Again #2 ($7.95)
2) Dark Knight Strikes Again #3 ($7.95)
3) Origin #4 ($3.50)
4) Origin #5 ($3.50)
5) Origin #6 ($3.50)
6) Masters of the Universe #1 ($5.95)
7) Transformers G1 #2 ($2.95)
8) Transformers G1 #1 ($2.95)
9) Transformers G1 #3 ($2.95)
10) A Moment of Silence ($3.00)
Again, the dollar ranking is a function of both quantity and cover price, a high quantity ordered combined with a high cover price would place product at #1 on both charts, while a higher cover price combined with a solid position on the unit ranking (such as Dark Knight Strikes Again) place it at the top of the dollar rank, that is, Dark Knight Strikes Again #2 was the #1 item that brought in the most money to Diamond in 2002.
Conversely, a high quantity ordered combined with a low cover price will place a book lower on the dollar rank. For example, while Ultimates #1 was #1 in terms of quantity shipped, it was #19 in dollar rank, a function of its $2.25 cover price.
Other items of note in the ranking:
Marvel:
- Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do #1 ranked at #14 in quantity for the year.
- Ultimate War #1 came in at #16 for the year.
- Captain America #1 was #41 in quantity for the year.
- All issues of Ultimates, New X-Men, and Ultimate X-Men for 2002 were in the Top 100.
- Amazing Spider-Man was the first regular Spider-Man title to rank, with #40 coming in at #44. The first issue of Ultimate Spider-Man to show up was issue #25 at #55.
- Along with Captain America #1, Daredevil: Target #1 was the only non-Ultimate, non-Spider, non-X book to enter the Top 100, at #59 in terms of quantity.
DC:
- Batman #608-#610 (the first three issues of the Jim Lee/Jeph Loeb run were the only issues of the publishers’ regular series to make the Top 100 books in terms of quantity for the year.
- Thundercats: Reclaiming Thundera #1 ranked at #28 in terms of quantity, while Thundercats #0 ranked at #70.
Image:
- Battle of the Planets #1 ranked at #24 in terms of quantity.
The total tally for the Top 100 in terms of quantity from the top five publishers, counting comics for sale (not promotional items)
Marvel: 80
DC: 8
Image: 2
Dark Horse: 0
CrossGen: 0
Dreamwave: 10
According to <a href="http://www.icv2.com" target="_blank"> ICV2’s</a> estimates, the #100-ranked title (by quantity), Ultimate X-Men #26, which shipped in December had around 87,893 copies ordered by retailers, while the #1-ranked book, Ultimates #1 had roughly 149,289 copies ordered. Roughly, according to Diamond’s chart and ICV2.com’s estimates, comics not making the Top 100 list had less than 87,893 copies ordered of each issue for the calendar year, 2002.
For the full list of Top 100 Comics for 2002, click <a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Top1002002.htm" target="_blank"> here</a>.
Additionally, Diamond released a listing of the Top 100 graphic novels of 2002, both in quantity and dollar ranks. The Top 10 graphic novels shipped via Diamond in regards to quantity were:
1) September 11th Volume 2 (DC)
2) September 11th Volume 1 (Dark Horse)
3) JLA: Secret Origins
4) Bluntman & Chronic (Image)
5) Ultimate Spider-Man Volume 1
6) JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice
7) Star Wars: Jango Fett
8) League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Book One
9) Lone Wolf & Cub Volume 17
10) Star Wars: Zam Wesell
In regards to retail (dollar) rank:
1) Origin Hardcover
2) JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice
3) September 11th Volume 2
4) September 11th Volume 1
5) Marvel Encyclopedia
6) Ultimate Spider-Man HC
7) Bluntman & Chronic
8) Ultimate Spider-Man Volume 1 TPB
9) Akira Volume 6
10) League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Book One
For the list of Top 100 graphic novels of 2002, click <a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Top1002002.htm" target="_blank"> here</a>.
Of note is the strong showing of graphic novels containing original material, as well as the first signs of manga in each Top 10 list from Dark Horse, rather than Tokyopop. Additionally, Dark Horse’s Star Wars trades had a strong showing throughout the Top 100 graphic novel list, along with Lone Wolf and Cub.
Other OGNs in terms of quantity:
9-11 Emergency Relief (Alternative Comics) - #19
Delicate Creatures (Image) - #21
Witchblade Obakemono (Image) - #32
Star Wars: Episode II: Attack of the Clones (Dark Horse) - #34
Harlequin Valentine (Dark Horse) - #43
Wonder Woman: The Hiketeia (DC) - #45
Green Lantern: Last Will and Testament of Hal Jordan (DC) - #53
Murder Mysteries (Dark Horse) - #54
Reveal Volume 1 (Dark Horse) - #75
Captain America: Red, White & Blue (Marvel) - #76
Tellos: Sons and Moons (Image) - #83
King David (DC) - #85
Happy Endings (Dark Horse) - #90
Catwoman: Selina’s Big Score (DC) - #98
Diamond’s list for 2002 also demonstrates the evergreen nature of trades, as Watchmen, Transmetropolitan, The Authority, Kingdom Come, Preacher, and early Lone Wolf and Cub volumes made the list.
Also of note is the first appearance of an independent publisher on the list, with Slave Labor’s Johnny Homicidal Maniac Directors Cut ranked at #60. The first volumes of CrossGen’s Forge and Edge (which bowed in April) also made the list, at #74 and #87, respectively.
Breaking down the list by publisher shows a slightly different makeup than the Top 100 comics:
Marvel: 30
DC: 30
Image: 9
Dark Horse: 25
CrossGen: 2
Wizard: 1
Alternative: 1
Dreamwave: 1
Slave Labor: 1
Again, an interesting note is the absolute absence of Tokyopop and Viz on the list, as the two companies have very strong showings in bookstores.
According to ICV2.com’s estimates, the #100 ranked trade, Universe X Volume 2 had roughly 3,493 copies ordered, while the #1 ranked trade, September 11th Volume 2 had roughly 8,377 copies ordered. However, given that trades are re-orderable and are on Diamond's Star System, intial orders are a inaccurate means of guesstimating quantity.
Perhaps a better estimator would be JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice which was released in November, and, according to ICV2, saw an estimated 16,000 copies ordered. Given it's late-year release, Virtue and Vice could have only had one month's worth of re-orders to increase its numbers, but for a very rough estimator, 16,000 is a good value for the #6 ranking on the list. That is, anything above #6 in Diamond's quantity ranking most likely had more than 16,000 copies ordered in total.
Similarly, another good index title would be JLA: Secret Origins, which also had a November release, and had an estimated 31,695 copies ordered, and ranked at #3 on Diamond's Top 100 in terms of quantity. So, roughly again, between position #6 and position #3, there appears to be a 16,000 copy difference.
Additionally, according to ICV2, initial orders for September 11th Volume 2 were around 8,000 copies, yet it ranked at #1 in terms of quantity for the year, meaning that reorder activity on the title was somewhere over 24,000 copies (which would be needed to place it ahead of JLA: Secret Origins at #3).
For the full list of Top 100 Graphic Novels for 2002, click <a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Top1002002.htm" target="_blank"> here</a>.
JK Parkin
02-06-2003, 04:13 PM
Wow, with the exception of Ultimates and Batman #608, the top ten is made up of some really crappy comic books.
Starsky_Hutch76
02-06-2003, 04:15 PM
It's hard not to look at the big numbers of the Dark Knight Strikes Again and not get angry. Never has something failed so miserably to live up to the hype. IMHO, it even beat out Star Wars: The Phantom Menace in that regard. In 25 years as a comic fan, it was the worst thing I've ever had the misfortune to read.
Jake Ivers
02-06-2003, 04:34 PM
WOW...that was one long "ultimate" list on comics sold in 2002. I "ultimately" wonder how the list will look an "ultimate" year from now? Some really great "ultimate" stuff was on that list.
These "ultimate" companies sure put out some great "ultimate" stuff in 2002. Well maybe that "ultimate" Batman DK2 was a bit of an "ultimate" let down story wise. But "ultimately" DC got what it wanted..."ultimate" dollars. I guess it's no "ultimate" surprise that Marvel was the "ultimate" number one publisher. A big "ultimate" thanks to "ultimate" Newsarama for giving us such an "ultimate" story.
I got to go. Time to "ultimately" feed the "ultimate" sheep.
:D
Dang...I was hoping that didn't sound like an "ultimate" waste of my time.
biglou
02-06-2003, 04:57 PM
I loved DK2 --
To each his own --
Super Skrull
02-06-2003, 05:26 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by biglou:
<strong>I loved DK2 --
To each his own --</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That makes two of us!
Starsky_Hutch76
02-06-2003, 05:38 PM
Yep. THat makes two of you. The rest of the readers are all ready to burn Frank Miller in Effigy.
.... Effigy, Mississippi, that is. Where the authorites aren't likely to find the body. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Just kidding. It was pretty bad though. One big stinking, day-glo turd. It boggles my mind that anyone liked it. If it had been John Doe on the cover instead of Frank Miller, would you still have thought it was good?
toolverine
02-06-2003, 05:40 PM
You can have my copies of DK2 :rolleyes: :mad:
Jake Ivers
02-06-2003, 05:52 PM
DK2 was like the Caddyshack 2 of comic books.
Caleb Gerard
02-06-2003, 05:54 PM
Okay, so let me do my own little ranking:
Of top 10 comics in quantity I purchased 4 of 10 and only liked 1.
Of top 10 comics in sales I purchased 2 and liked 0.
Of top 10 GNs in quantity I purchased 5 and liked 3.
Of top 10 GNs in sales I purchased 3 and liked 2 of those.
Of top 10 OGNs I purchased 2 and liked 1 of those.
I'd have to say that on the whole my biggest regret was not picking up more OGNs since they are the future of the market. My next biggest regret was buying DK2 when I could have used the funds on OGNs.
Caleb
blankpoint
02-06-2003, 06:11 PM
As a longtime Batman and Miller fan, and as creator of this ---> <a href="http://members.tripod.com/kc_darkknight" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/kc_darkknight</a> <--- website, I thought that DK2 was amazing. It's great, and especially found it fitting to see how Origin and DK2 divided fans in my store. Origin is a pot of mush, a disgusting, bloated cow of a comic which will soon be forgotten and DK2 was one of the only projects of the year which was not disappointing.
Mostly, these top 100 lists show comic readers' bad taste. Amazing Spider-Man and such may be good ten-minute reads, good passing entertainment, but they are really not close to the best the comic industry is putting out right now.
Marvel has *two* good comics - The Ultimates, and X-Statix... sometimes New X-Men as well. That's it.
William Coate
02-06-2003, 06:40 PM
It's amazing how people are very divided on DK2. I liked part of it but overall was quite dissappointed. I honestly got more out of Origin. But to me the best book out there is Powers. The current arc in not its best but it is a better read then anything on the top ten excluding Ultimates.
At this point it would seem that DK2 was a faliure in terms of it being a sequel that did not live up to the hype but sold well enough as sequels do.
Some things are better left alone.
William Coate
JeffTheBeefy
02-06-2003, 07:00 PM
DK2 was ok, definatly something that was better if read all at once.
On the other hand, Origin was the biggest steaming pile of crap I have ever seen...
Beefy out.....
JeffTheBeefy
02-06-2003, 07:03 PM
Oh, and there is NOTHING good about New X-Men. The craptastic art alone is enough to make me puke...
DrDoom
02-06-2003, 07:07 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JK Phoenix:
<strong>Wow, with the exception of Ultimates and Batman #608, the top ten is made up of some really crappy comic books.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i have just bought the TPB :) sheesh
DrewDewce
02-06-2003, 08:31 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by William Coate:
<strong>I honestly got more out of Origin. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I got more out of Origin . . . when I sold them to some moron on ebay!
I enjoyed DK2, but Origin just left me with a sense of getting ripped off. THIS was the origin they didn't want Hollywood to be able to tell?? Fanboy, Please!
BlakSun
02-06-2003, 08:32 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by blankpoint:
<strong>
Marvel has *two* good comics - The Ultimates, and X-Statix... sometimes New X-Men as well. That's it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow. :rolleyes:
I think that some would beg to differ with you on that. Black Panther? Daredevil? Alias?
COREMARK
02-06-2003, 08:58 PM
I loved DK2, and I also enjoyed Origin it wasn't perfect but I enjoyed it.
pifpog
02-06-2003, 09:17 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong>It's hard not to look at the big numbers of the Dark Knight Strikes Again and not get angry. Never has something failed so miserably to live up to the hype. IMHO, it even beat out Star Wars: The Phantom Menace in that regard. In 25 years as a comic fan, it was the worst thing I've ever had the misfortune to read.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It wasn't the worst thing I've read in 30 years of reading (remember the New Universe line?), but it certainly represented the biggest fall from the expectations/hype to the reality. I didn't mind Origins as much because, well, I didn't expect very much. But Miller... well, it was just sad that this may be how he is best remembered to a generation of readers.
Dan Feeser
02-06-2003, 10:02 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MattBrady:
<strong>- Along with Captain America #1, Daredevil: Target #1 was the only non-Ultimate, non-Spider, non-X book to enter the Top 100, at #59 in terms of quantity.
...
The total tally for the Top 100 in terms of quantity from the top five publishers, counting comics for sale (not promotional items)
Marvel: 80</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doesn't anyone see this as odd or at least a sign of why readership isn't expaning? 80 books in the Top 100, but only 2 non-ultimate, non-X or non Spider-Man. How is readership going to expand if readers options aren't?
dogisred
02-06-2003, 10:16 PM
I would have liked to have seen some more diversity in the top books, but I understand that you hit when the iron is hot and ultimate books were hot this year. I doubt that the same books will be on the top in 2003, I mean some will, but not all of them. Everything changes. I can't wait for some more changes to come...
blankpoint
02-07-2003, 12:35 AM
****I think that some would beg to differ with you on that. Black Panther? Daredevil? Alias?****
I consider Black Panther to be a solid superhero title, but I wouldn't consider it really special.
Daredevil and Alias, first of all, both have wonderful art, no question there... and especially great covers (though the Daredevil logo should long ago have been replaced with something more serious... maybe kinda like his chest logo or something.) I have a little problem with Bendis though. Sure, he writes great dialogue, but his plots just aren't that original. They also drag on to the extent that even if one reads a full storyline at once, the pacing is still off. Ultimate Spider-Man is better in terms of pacing, but even worse in terms of plot.
Mr. Special ED
02-07-2003, 01:52 AM
I'm not gonna comment on these numbers since the only people who should really care about these are the bean counters...
But MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE was 6 GOD DAMN DOLLARS!!! You have GOT to be f**king kidding me.
Tokyo Drifter
02-07-2003, 02:45 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DrewDewce:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by William Coate:
<strong>I honestly got more out of Origin. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I got more out of Origin . . . when I sold them to some moron on ebay!
I enjoyed DK2, but Origin just left me with a sense of getting ripped off. THIS was the origin they didn't want Hollywood to be able to tell?? Fanboy, Please!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL, Me too. For providing me with some much needed cash Origin can't be faulted.
Thought as a story it was sub-Mills & Boon dreck, terrible dialogue, cliched and uninvolving characters, nonsensical and frustrating plot.
The only way Hollywood would touch this is as a TV movie of the week.
William Coate
02-07-2003, 04:19 AM
Sorry to say but DK2 was much more a rip off than Origin. At eight dollars an issue it was an unfortunate ludicrous waste of my time. I never said Origin was great but there was a story to it that had much more sense on ONE page than 75% of the CRAP that DK2 turned out to be.
All in all both books were essentially missed opportunities. We all know this because we wouldn't be arguing this FACT if it wasn't.
William Coate
danzo
02-07-2003, 05:42 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JeffTheBeefy:
<strong>Oh, and there is NOTHING good about New X-Men. The craptastic art alone is enough to make me puke...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ok, that i have to reply to. while the rotating artist thing is annoying as hell, New X-Men has consistently featured excellent work by it's many artists, calling it "craptastic" is just juvenile and insulting. you don't like it, fine. but why be so crass and deficate on the creators like that? can't wait to observe your next artistic masterpiece, any info on when it's due?
I have to agree, the art on New X Men is top class. The writing is also very, very good! Its no surprise that this has featured in the top 100!
DK2 was good, but was a let down to many because Miller is usually better than that.
JimHughs4
02-07-2003, 09:42 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Andy:
<strong>DK2 was good, but was a let down to many because Miller is usually better than that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Strangely enough, I've enjoyed DK2 much more after repeated readings... It does have a lot of levels to it. After I bought the issues, I would have said it was a waste of money. Now, with a little perspective on it, I think it was one of the more original works of the last five years. Oh well, my own opinion...JH
dogisred
02-07-2003, 09:59 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Andy:
<strong>I have to agree, the art on New X Men is top class. The writing is also very, very good! Its no surprise that this has featured in the top 100!
DK2 was good, but was a let down to many because Miller is usually better than that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will agree that the regular artists on New X-Men have been nice (Frank Quitely and Ethan Van Sciver) but when Igor Kordey had to fill in...and it has been posted on these pages before that he was asked because he worked fast...and fill in on short notice, the artwork suffered. Not that Kordey isn't a fine artist, but when he filled in it was on short notice and the work suffered.
As for why it's on the top 100, well, there are a lot of X-Men fans out there that are keeping their collections going and not reading them. The comic shop I frequent has many of these collectors. For a while I was one of these. I knew that the comic would come around eventually, and I knew I could wait it out. I bought them, bagged them, put them away unread. I hated it, but I did it. Morrison's tales have been intriguing to say the least, and I haven't always liked them, but they are better than what preceeded.
As for DK2...I didn't read any of them until all three were released. It always makes it easier to follow in that fashion. Many friends were irritated by the extended time it took to come out. I think that hurt it because people would forget what had happened in the previous issue...and then the continuity isn't there. I've read it several times since...I like it. Origin, on the other ahnd I'll only read twice...and I probably won't read it again for a very long time. I kept thinking...THIS IS THE STORY THEY DIDN'T WANT TOLD...NO WONDER!!
Mark Dominy
02-07-2003, 10:32 AM
To the people who didn't like DK2:
You missed the point of it all - it was SUPPOSED to be a bad comic. It was a parody of bad comics, and Miller did an excellent job of putting everything that can be bad with comics into it. For example:
1. The story was so disjointed and the plot was so spotty that it made no sense in places.
2. The hyper-stylized drawing actually pulled the reader out of the story.
3. The computer coloring was so jarring that it looked like it was done by an un-experienced newcomer and not a sesoned pro.
4. Too many double and single spash pages.
5. Too many guest appearances that add nothing to the story.
6. The 3rd issue was really late.
7. Combine that with a hefty price-tag and you get a superb parody of everything that can be done wrong with a comic book.
Shame on you for not getting that!
MattBrady
02-07-2003, 10:36 AM
to pull things back from the postively absorbing discussion of the merits of DK2 vs. NXM, I updated the article with a better epxlanation of estiamted GN numbers.
corrected version...
According to ICV2.com’s estimates, the #100 ranked trade, Universe X Volume 2 had roughly 3,493 copies ordered, while the #1 ranked trade, September 11th Volume 2 had roughly 8,377 copies ordered. However, given that trades are re-orderable and are on Diamond's Star System, intial orders are a inaccurate means of guesstimating quantity.
Perhaps a better estimator would be JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice which was released in November, and, according to ICV2, saw an estimated 16,000 copies ordered. Given it's late-year release, Virtue and Vice could have only had one month's worth of re-orders to increase its numbers, but for a very rough estimator, 16,000 is a good value for the #6 ranking on the list. That is, anything above #6 in Diamond's quantity ranking most likely had more than 16,000 copies ordered in total.
Similarly, another good index title would be JLA: Secret Origins, which also had a November release, and had an estimated 31,695 copies ordered, and ranked at #3 on Diamond's Top 100 in terms of quantity. So, roughly again, between position #6 and position #3, there appears to be a 16,000 copy difference.
Additionally, according to ICV2, initial orders for September 11th Volume 2 were around 8,000 copies, yet it ranked at #1 in terms of quantity for the year, meaning that reorder activity on the title was somewhere over 24,000 copies (which would be needed to place it ahead of JLA: Secret Origins at #3).
MattB
Tank Abbot
02-07-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by danzo:
"ok, that i have to reply to. while the rotating artist thing is annoying as hell, New X-Men has consistently featured excellent work by it's many artists, calling it "craptastic" is just juvenile and insulting. you don't like it, fine. but why be so crass and deficate on the creators like that? can't wait to observe your next artistic masterpiece, any info on when it's due?"
Frank Quitely's, or however you spell his name, work is down right ugly, and anyone can call it whatever they want, and they don't have to answer to anyone else's sense of maturity. Craptastic...I think it's hilarious.
Caleb Gerard
02-07-2003, 11:27 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mark Dominy:
<strong>Miller did an excellent job of putting everything that can be bad with comics into it. For example:
1. The story was so disjointed and the plot was so spotty that it made no sense in places.
2. The hyper-stylized drawing actually pulled the reader out of the story.
3. The computer coloring was so jarring that it looked like it was done by an un-experienced newcomer and not a sesoned pro.
4. Too many double and single spash pages.
5. Too many guest appearances that add nothing to the story.
6. The 3rd issue was really late.
7. Combine that with a hefty price-tag and you get a superb parody of everything that can be done wrong with a comic book.
Shame on you for not getting that!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">8. Enough T&A to make all the one-handed readers happy.
CJG, Managing Editor
JeffTheBeefy
02-07-2003, 11:50 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by danzo:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JeffTheBeefy:
<strong>Oh, and there is NOTHING good about New X-Men. The craptastic art alone is enough to make me puke...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ok, that i have to reply to. while the rotating artist thing is annoying as hell, New X-Men has consistently featured excellent work by it's many artists, calling it "craptastic" is just juvenile and insulting. you don't like it, fine. but why be so crass and deficate on the creators like that? can't wait to observe your next artistic masterpiece, any info on when it's due?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll tell ya why I can say what I said. Because I live in America and I can say whatever the fuck I want. If I want to say I hate the art on the New X-Men (which I do), I can. If I think it's craptastic and want to voice my opinion, I can. It's just my opinion, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. You want to censor what I say? Go to Cuba or North Korea, you can do all the censoring you want there. Otherwise I'll keep throwing out my opinions where they are not wanted!
BEEFY OUT!
BoyWonder
02-07-2003, 12:13 PM
DK2 was a very very big disappointment in both story and artwork. I don't get the 'deliberately bad' angle. Batman has been made a joke of plenty of times on TV and film: Batman & Robin alone sends a shiver down my spine. I agree that if Frank Miller's name wasn't on the cover a lot more people would have hated it.
I think that Amazing Spiderman is a fine book as is Black Panther. (I never miss an opportunity to big up BP!)
I don't know how far marvel will go with the ultimate line, I can see it fading away in a few years having completely failed in it's original task, which was to lure in new readers to a less complicated Marvel Universe. The same people who buy the regular comics buy the ultimate comics. I don't see anyone new coming from anywhere, just the same old people.
leez34
02-07-2003, 12:29 PM
No one cares, but my two cents:
DK2: Worst comic I've ever read in my life, and DK1 is the best.
Origin: Damn fine comic that I'm proud to own. Oh yeah, and I can tell what happened in it.
gOgIver
02-07-2003, 01:35 PM
Does anyone know how many copies of Stray Bullets were sold? (Average per issue) I always thought that if an indy book sold between 2,000 and 5,000 copies it was a smash hit. But that was when I thought X-Men was still selling 400,000 copies per issue. Are Ultimate X-Men and New X-Men really selling less than 100,000 copies per issue?
JeffTheBeefy
02-07-2003, 02:35 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by leez34:
<strong>Origin: Damn fine comic that I'm proud to own. Oh yeah, and I can tell what happened in it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only thing I liked about Origin was how much I was able to sell the set for on E-Bay. Same for Transformers G1.
John is Harter
02-07-2003, 03:28 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BoyWonder:
<strong>I don't know how far marvel will go with the ultimate line, I can see it fading away in a few years having completely failed in it's original task, which was to lure in new readers to a less complicated Marvel Universe. The same people who buy the regular comics buy the ultimate comics. I don't see anyone new coming from anywhere, just the same old people.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have to disagree with this. At the comic store where I work there are very many people who only read the Ultimate line. When I ask them why they read Ultimate Spider-Man and not Amazing, they say that Ultimate is their version of Spider-Man. i assume that is what Marvel was tring to do with the Ultimate line and their sucess is shown in the sales numbers.
mr mainstream
02-07-2003, 03:28 PM
I read Origin on Marvel.com. I'm sooo glad I didn't buy it.
DK2 was an OK Batman story. But a terrible follow up to Return of the Dark Knight.
Every six months or so, I get out my battered, old curled up Graphic Novel of RotDK, and enjoy it more and more as the years go by.
DK2 has been tucked safely into the comic box....never to see the light of day again !
JeffTheBeefy
02-07-2003, 03:45 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by John is Harter:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BoyWonder:
<strong>I don't know how far marvel will go with the ultimate line, I can see it fading away in a few years having completely failed in it's original task, which was to lure in new readers to a less complicated Marvel Universe. The same people who buy the regular comics buy the ultimate comics. I don't see anyone new coming from anywhere, just the same old people.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have to disagree with this. At the comic store where I work there are very many people who only read the Ultimate line. When I ask them why they read Ultimate Spider-Man and not Amazing, they say that Ultimate is their version of Spider-Man. i assume that is what Marvel was tring to do with the Ultimate line and their sucess is shown in the sales numbers.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What, no mention of Chain Gang War :D ???
John is Harter
02-07-2003, 04:06 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JeffTheBeefy:
[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What, no mention of Chain Gang War :D ???[/QB][/QUOTE]
No, but if Dc released it I bet it would make the list of top 25 TPB's. Even if I had to order all of the copies for my store. :cool:
JeffTheBeefy
02-07-2003, 04:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by John is Harter:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JeffTheBeefy:
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What, no mention of Chain Gang War :D ???[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, but if Dc released it I bet it would make the list of top 25 TPB's. Even if I had to order all of the copies for my store. :cool: </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dude, I know your store. You have room for maybe 3 copies :p
ComicBook Conventions.com
02-07-2003, 04:49 PM
I enjoyed DK2 for the most part, just because it's based on the pre-Crisis DC universe. I miss the days of Barry, Hal, Hawkman as a Thanagarian, etc.
Brian
<a href="http://www.comicbookconventions.com/conventionawards/index.htm" target="_blank">Vote for your favorites in the Convention Awards at Comic Book Conventions.com!</a>
Caleb Gerard
02-07-2003, 05:12 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JeffTheBeefy:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by John is Harter:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by BoyWonder:
[qb]I don't know how far marvel will go with the ultimate line, I can see it fading away in a few years having completely failed in it's original task, which was to lure in new readers to a less complicated Marvel Universe. The same people who buy the regular comics buy the ultimate comics. I don't see anyone new coming from anywhere, just the same old people.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have to disagree with this. At the comic store where I work there are very many people who only read the Ultimate line. When I ask them why they read Ultimate Spider-Man and not Amazing, they say that Ultimate is their version of Spider-Man. i assume that is what Marvel was tring to do with the Ultimate line and their sucess is shown in the sales numbers.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ultimate revived my interest in Spider-Man, in fact I don't buy any other version no matter what they hype might say... this title has been consistent and for the most part timely (or has it ever been late?)
I'd say the biggest problem that Marvel has to face is drawing readers from the Ultimate Universe at the cost of readers of the MU versions. Despite strong showings by writers and artists I have recently contemplated dropping Avengers and both X-Men books but continuing on Ultimates and Ultimate X-Men.
Economics being what they are I'm feeling the wind of oversaturation again and this disturbs me greatly...
Caleb Gerard, <a href="http://www.comicworldnews.com" target="_blank">www.comicworldnews.com</a>
Lord Shockwave
02-07-2003, 09:23 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JK Phoenix:
<strong>Wow, with the exception of Ultimates and Batman #608, the top ten is made up of some really crappy comic books.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, the Transformers titles were pretty good too.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by blankpoint:
<strong>****I think that some would beg to differ with you on that. Black Panther? Daredevil? Alias?****
I consider Black Panther to be a solid superhero title, but I wouldn't consider it really special.
Daredevil and Alias, first of all, both have wonderful art, no question there... and especially great covers (though the Daredevil logo should long ago have been replaced with something more serious... maybe kinda like his chest logo or something.) I have a little problem with Bendis though. Sure, he writes great dialogue, but his plots just aren't that original. They also drag on to the extent that even if one reads a full storyline at once, the pacing is still off. Ultimate Spider-Man is better in terms of pacing, but even worse in terms of plot.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow, see now this is why they are called opinions...
There is EVERY question in my mind that the art on alias is the butt-ugliest worst artwork I've had the misfortune to want to gouge my eyes out while looking at...
Shame too, because I liked the first issue of Alias.
All the great artists in the world who can't keep to a schedule and the one artist I would gladly pay money to stay off of a title (if I could afford it!) and he won't go away!!!!! sigh
Ok, well Om has his Copiel and I still hate Gaydo's art, life goes on...
William Coate
02-08-2003, 04:35 AM
JeffTheBeefy why is it you need to steal someone's joke to make your point. It's no wonder you enjoyed DK2 more. You like repeats of material with less originality.
Get over it. Some people actually understood Origin compared to DK2. It is amazing that this is some kind of problem for you.
I think it's quite amazing that you need to steal someone's eBay joke and think that it is that funny to repeat it. You must have lost some brain cells some where. Is that why DK2 is so close to your heart? It had all the BAMF SMACK BUMP for you to enjoy.
It's all starting to make sense!
William Coate
dr.no
02-08-2003, 10:37 AM
Isn't there anyone who really understood DK2?
It was just a good comic. Nothing more, nothing less and gave absolutely more value for the money than the highly overrated Origin.
Starsky_Hutch76
02-08-2003, 10:12 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dr.no:
<strong>Isn't there anyone who really understood DK2?
It was just a good comic. Nothing more, nothing less and gave absolutely more value for the money than the highly overrated Origin.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What's to understand. A bad book is a bad book whether you're Frank Miller or Ron Zimmerman. I certainly didn't get any value out of it and since I didn't get Origin, I don't have another bad book to compare it to.
I'd say the word "craptastic" really applies to this series.
William Coate
02-09-2003, 01:22 AM
You said it Starsky!
WC
JeffTheBeefy
02-09-2003, 01:55 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dr.no:
<strong>Isn't there anyone who really understood DK2?
It was just a good comic. Nothing more, nothing less and gave absolutely more value for the money than the highly overrated Origin.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What's to understand. A bad book is a bad book whether you're Frank Miller or Ron Zimmerman. I certainly didn't get any value out of it and since I didn't get Origin, I don't have another bad book to compare it to.
I'd say the word "craptastic" really applies to this series.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh my god, you used someone else's joke! You evil person!!
:D Just kidding...
JeffTheBeefy
02-09-2003, 02:01 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by William Coate:
<strong>JeffTheBeefy why is it you need to steal someone's joke to make your point. It's no wonder you enjoyed DK2 more. You like repeats of material with less originality.
Get over it. Some people actually understood Origin compared to DK2. It is amazing that this is some kind of problem for you.
I think it's quite amazing that you need to steal someone's eBay joke and think that it is that funny to repeat it. You must have lost some brain cells some where. Is that why DK2 is so close to your heart? It had all the BAMF SMACK BUMP for you to enjoy.
It's all starting to make sense!
William Coate</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, didn't steal anyone's joke...just stated a fact. Sold my Origin set and Transformers 1-3 on Ebay for 10 times what I paid for it. Maybe you're mad because you are the sucker who bought them? Whatever.
I actually understood both Origin and DK2 (though that one took a bit longer). Just didn't like Origin, my opinion. I don't expect others to share my opinion, but to say someone's opinion is wrong...that's just stupid.
Seems like you are the one who needs to get over it...
dogisred
02-09-2003, 06:49 PM
I think part of the problem with both DK2 and Origin is the price we had to pay. $24 for DK2 (rounding up) and $24 for Origin. Both limited series...that's a buttload of money for a story that was years in the making. The big difference is this: Miller didn't really want to do DK2, ever...but the years wore on and eventually he decided to do it, to the delight of many millions of readers who looked forward to it. That's the problem...we were looking so forward to it that it could never have lived up to our expectations (though it could have been better). Origin was also a story that was hung like a carrot in front of comic readers for years. No matter how hungry we are...no matter how long we've chased that carrot, it won't taste as good as we imagined it would. I liked Origin's beginnings, but it later turned into "Luck of Roaring Camp" without the humor. Either way, I paid $48 for two stories that didn't live up to their potential, or my expectations. That's the bottom line for me.
dogisred
02-09-2003, 07:07 PM
Oops, forgot to say...
This thread has been more about the books we didn't like in 2002, why not discuss books that were worth the cover price.
I've enjoyed JSA all year...I've had a renewed interest in Thor...Hawkman has been an interesting read so far...Poison Elves has always made me smile while I'm reading (Get Well Drew!)...Fables has been a very pleasant surprise...Amazing Spider-Man has been nice...and finally I've really liked reading Captain Marvel and Supergirl (Get Well Peter :D , oh that's right...you're not sick...well, you don't have a virus :D ).
William Coate
02-10-2003, 02:55 PM
Beefywhatever my point is we got your point! You don't need to rub it in. Some people liked Origin. Plain and simple and for you to state that it was a waste of money is only your opinion. Some people may share this opinion, so, life goes on! Nothing you do or say is going to change what the story meant for others. So, yeah, get over it.
WC
JeffTheBeefy
02-11-2003, 12:02 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by William Coate:
<strong>Beefywhatever my point is we got your point! You don't need to rub it in. Some people liked Origin. Plain and simple and for you to state that it was a waste of money is only your opinion. Some people may share this opinion, so, life goes on! Nothing you do or say is going to change what the story meant for others. So, yeah, get over it.
WC</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dude, you really need to go back and re-read our whole little debate here. You are the one who jumped down my throat for stating my opinion, not the other way around. What people like is up to them, as long as their buying something I'm happy :cool:
benlantern
02-11-2003, 12:46 PM
DK2 was good. NOt for the same reason DK1 was good though. THe reason everyone looks back so fondly on DK 1 was becasue of how dark and violent it was. It made Batman cool and it ushered in a whole slew of dark "action" comics. Miller came back and said, "Ah you all liked what I did then? Well how about if we do this?" and people hated it. For whatever reason they couldn't stand a Batman comic that didn't have Batman as a grizzled shadowy creature. I applaud him for trying something new. He could have easily done the same thing a second time but he did something new and different just like in DK1.
William Coate
02-13-2003, 04:42 PM
Beefywhatever I did look over the argument and it would seem that the only point that most people had is how much money they earned off of Origin. We all got issues but it would seem no one ever gave any particular considerations or analysis worthy of any particular argument.
"I liked DK2, I made money on Origin..." Isn't really a comprehensive anaylsis of the differences between these books. So to say I "jumped down your throat" isn't quite accurate. I was simply pointed out how ludricuous your whole point of view is. You didn't like Origin. So what!. There are plenty of people who did like it, understood it as a complete story about the discovery of powers and the relationships that represent that individual and how those relationships continue to effect that individual today.
That's all I am trying to point out.
William Coate
JeffTheBeefy
02-13-2003, 05:33 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by William Coate:
<strong>Beefywhatever I did look over the argument and it would seem that the only point that most people had is how much money they earned off of Origin. We all got issues but it would seem no one ever gave any particular considerations or analysis worthy of any particular argument.
"I liked DK2, I made money on Origin..." Isn't really a comprehensive anaylsis of the differences between these books. So to say I "jumped down your throat" isn't quite accurate. I was simply pointed out how ludricuous your whole point of view is. You didn't like Origin. So what!. There are plenty of people who did like it, understood it as a complete story about the discovery of powers and the relationships that represent that individual and how those relationships continue to effect that individual today.
That's all I am trying to point out.
William Coate</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And there are those of us who saw Origin as a over-hyped, boring, bloated mess, but that is just my opinion. You have your own opinion, and that's cool. But to say someone's opinion is "ludricuous" is just plain goofy...
My point all along is that different people have different opinions. To take someone to task for liking one book over another makes no sense at all.
William Coate
02-14-2003, 04:51 AM
That's all fine and dandy but to make fun of someone because he liked something you didn't is quite ludricous all in itself.
WC
JeffTheBeefy
02-14-2003, 12:13 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by William Coate:
<strong>That's all fine and dandy but to make fun of someone because he liked something you didn't is quite ludricous all in itself.
WC</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I quite agree. So I guess you won't be doing this anymore? Apology accepted.
MattBrady
02-18-2003, 12:06 PM
Posts deleted. William and Jeff, if you want to get into a name-calling pissing match, take it to e-mail, or do it somewhere else.
MattB
JeffTheBeefy
02-18-2003, 06:03 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MattBrady:
<strong>Posts deleted. William and Jeff, if you want to get into a name-calling pissing match, take it to e-mail, or do it somewhere else.
MattB</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Awwwww....ok
William Coate
02-19-2003, 01:51 PM
You live for stuff like this don'tcha? Luckily I missed the part that Mr. Brady deleted that was so offensive. Anyhow I will respect his wishes and leave the silliness to you.
WC
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