Detective Comics or Batman?

[Proud Texan]

Which one of the two Batman Flagship titles are you enjoying more? We're a few months into both, so you should be able to pick one of the other.

Please note that I left off the namby-pamby, indecisive "Oh...I'm liking them both" option. Pick one, you pansies!!! :p

Oh, and I didn't put a "neither" option for you nattering nabobs of negatism, either! Just do the American thing and Don't Vote! ;)

[chap22]

i'm really liking Grant's Batman. but i'm absolutely LOVING Dini's 'Tec.

[aeast317]

detective.

[nolanjwerner]

You should have done:

1. Detective Comics by a mile. Batman sucks.
2. Both good but Detective Comics is a lot better.
3. Both good but Detective Comics is a little better.
4. Both good but Batman is a little better.
5. Both good but Batman is a lot better.
6. Batman by a mile. Detective Comics sucks.

[SouthtownKid]

It's real close, but I'm liking Batman a bit more.

[Proud Texan]

i'm really liking Grant's Batman. but i'm absolutely LOVING Dini's 'Tec.

I disagree with the former, but totally agree with the latter! ;)

[Bane122]

What? No "Legends of the dark Knight (Featuring Mila Jovovich) is bestest" option?

[BatWolverine]

DETECTIVE :D

[BatWolverine]

What? No "Legends of the dark Knight (Featuring Mila Jovovich) is bestest" option?
LotDK isn't the *flagship* title. In fact, the 'Batman' title also shows up because of having the character's name.

The DETECTIVE rules all.

[chap22]

I disagree with the former, but totally agree with the latter! ;)
i see Grant's as just goofy fun. it's kinda like cotton candy...light and sweet, it'll make you sick if you get too much of it, but it won't stay with you long at all. i'm looking at it as a probably short run that will have probably zero lasting repercussions after it's over, but should be a fun ride while it's here.

[BatWolverine]

i see Grant's as just goofy fun. it's kinda like cotton candy...light and sweet, it'll make you sick if you get too much of it, but it won't stay with you long at all. i'm looking at it as a probably short run that will have probably zero lasting repercussions after it's over, but should be a fun ride while it's here.
As long as the 'zero lasting repercussions' clause takes effect...ASAP.

[mrorangesoda]

I would say that you should have waited until we had three issues from each, but nevertheless.

I'm voting Batman, mostly because I was a little let down with this last issue of Detective. It had some good character moments, but felt really short (probably due to too many plant attack pages). Also, the "detective" work seemed off this time, Batman didn't really put a whole lot together, he just found a disc. The promise of the next issue of Morrison's Batman edges Detective out for the best initial issues.

[MoneyMelon]

Detective is a MUCH better book, but that's not to say I'm not enjoying Batman.

[God-Man]

Detective, by far.

[God-Man]

I'm voting Batman, mostly because I was a little let down with this last issue of Detective. It had some good character moments, but felt really short (probably due to too many plant attack pages). Also, the "detective" work seemed off this time, Batman didn't really put a whole lot together, he just found a disc. The promise of the next issue of Morrison's Batman edges Detective out for the best initial issues.

I completelty agree about the latest issue of Detective, but I feel that Dini's first 2 issues were much better than Morrison's 1st 2 issues of Batman. Even if the next issue of Batman was amazing, that would make 1 great issue of Batman compared to 2 decent issues. On the other hand, Dini has had 2 great issues and 1 decent issue.

[nolanjwerner]

Its kind of unfair to ask this before Morrison's first arc is over.

[MatthewSmith]

i'm really liking Grant's Batman. but i'm absolutely LOVING Dini's 'Tec.

That's what I say too.

[chap22]

Its kind of unfair to ask this before Morrison's first arc is over.
no it's not. and saying that is basically the Morrisonites's backhanded way of admitting and apologizing for this runnot being up to usual "Morrison standards". some people feel differently about Grant than others. for those of us who don't drink the Kool-Aid, we can take or leave him based on how the work actually is from moment to moment, and not fawn and genuflect and say "oh it's MORRISON; by the time it's over this will be the best Batman story, maybe the best comic story, EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR." and i actually admit the man is good, and y'know what? it may end up being the best Batman story ever. but i so far SERIOUSLY doubt it. so far i see a fun two issues, with lots of minor dialogue problems, and little meat to the fairly basic central plot.

i don't need to see the whole arc to know which run i'm enjoying more NOW. and i don't imagine anybody else here does either.

[nolanjwerner]

no it's not. and saying that is basically the Morrisonites's backhanded way of admitting and apologizing for this runnot being up to usual "Morrison standards". some people feel differently about Grant than others. for those of us who don't drink the Kool-Aid, we can take or leave him based on how the work actually is from moment to moment, and not fawn and genuflect and say "oh it's MORRISON; by the time it's over this will be the best Batman story, maybe the best comic story, EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR." and i actually admit the man is good, and y'know what? it may end up being the best Batman story ever. but i so far SERIOUSLY doubt it. so far i see a fun two issues, with lots of minor dialogue problems, and little meat to the fairly basic central plot.

i don't need to see the whole arc to know which run i'm enjoying more NOW. and i don't imagine anybody else here does either.



Except that this is an unfair question since its really a situation he couldn't win considering he's up against a series of stand alone issues.

Honestly, I think morrison's stuff has been weak so far. If he doesn't impress me by the end of the arc, I'm going for trades (or at the very least reading before buying). DC actually does a decent job of getting Morrison stuff out in trades.

And BTW, I thought the whole metatextual commentary on there was mostly total BS too. But i'm growing quite cynical of postmodernism in general.

While I think that, ultimately, Morrison may prove to have the better Batman run, right now Dini is light years ahead.

[Michael Hawk]

Detective Comics. Batman was good 9still dropped it though) but wasn't good enough to continue (and having Talia and a Bat/ Talia kid in it does nothing for me). Detective is probably my favorite book right now from DC (too bad JH Willaims III can't come back).

[Michael Hawk]

Except that this is an unfair question since its really a situation he couldn't win considering he's up against a series of stand alone issues.
True but DC and Grant could've done stand alone issues if they wanted to (plus, with Grant's popularity, they could get Dini to stop and make him do a multiple-issue story).

[HartyPotter]

I haven't been wowed by either right now, but I generally seem to be liking Detective more. I sorta wish it had more Timm-like art to it though.

[nolanjwerner]

True but DC and Grant could've done stand alone issues if they wanted to (plus, with Grant's popularity, they could get Dini to stop and make him do a multiple-issue story).


I like both approaches.

I'm jsut saying its hard to compare three full stories to two parts of an incomplete story arc.

[DeadFett]

Detective has been awesome. Batman...meh.

[Bane122]

LotDK isn't the *flagship* title. In fact, the 'Batman' title also shows up because of having the character's name.

The DETECTIVE rules all.

But it's got Mila Jovovich...

...

Fine! I'll go with 'tec.

[TheLizard207]

Detective.

Not to say I don't look forward to Batman. But Detective has been aweome.

[The Shadow]

We're a few months into both, so you should be able to pick one of the other.
I disagree. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Dini's are all stand alone stories and Morrison is in the middle of his... so I don't know how good it is yet.

[The Shadow]

Its kind of unfair to ask this before Morrison's first arc is over.
Agreed.

That being said based on what's been released I went with Detective.

But that could change.

[carl kolchak]

i see Grant's as just goofy fun. it's kinda like cotton candy...light and sweet, it'll make you sick if you get too much of it, but it won't stay with you long at all. i'm looking at it as a probably short run that will have probably zero lasting repercussions after it's over, but should be a fun ride while it's here.

Good assessment. Morrison's run thus far has been enjoyable if you don't think about it. Dini's issues has required you to think along with them and that alone is a rare thing.

[sirbluenose]

Based on 3 completestories against 2 chapters of a four issue arc it is quite
an unfair question.

I clicked on my hometown boy but..........

Which is better so far..........Detective
Which do I look forward to more......Batman

cliffhangers always do that to me.

[nolanjwerner]

Agreed.

That being said based on what's been released I went with Detective.

But that could change.


It like saying would I read read 10 pages from the middle fo a great novel without context or a complete 10 page short story.

Its hardly a fair question by any stretch f the imagination.

[jedifish]

You should have done:

1. Detective Comics by a mile. Batman sucks.
2. Both good but Detective Comics is a lot better.
3. Both good but Detective Comics is a little better.
4. Both good but Batman is a little better.
5. Both good but Batman is a lot better.
6. Batman by a mile. Detective Comics sucks.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Excelsior!]

Detective Comics - Batman (the character) hasn't been written this well in years, and the recent developments with the Riddler are fresh, new, and yet at the same time logical and not glaringly incongruous with the inherent nature of the character. That's how to keep the books interesting (Judd Winick and Devin Grayson, please take note...)! Also, the one-shot approach is something I wholeheartedly approve of, so in short, this book's been doing a lot of things that I reckon really good comics should. Let's hope Dini gets more DC work soon - I'd love to see him tackle some underused, obscure characters and breathe new life into them. :)

As for Batman, I'm getting the same impression that I always do with Morrison - that he's going to put his stamp on the book in some (most likely controversial) way, thus turning it into 'Grant Morrison's Batman', complete with new mannerisms (does anyone else give Bats that daft 'hhh' thing?), m.o., and whatnot. I don't enjoy vanity projects, and this doesn't look as if it's going to change my mind any time soon, IMO.

[Sparro]

I voted for Detective because Dini is presenting a classic Batman without coming off as a nostalgia trip. Batman has also been excellent. Both titles have been of such high quality that I am getting the floppies instead of waiting for the trade which I do for everything else I like.

[nolanjwerner]

Detective Comics - Batman (the character) hasn't been written this well in years, and the recent developments with the Riddler are fresh, new, and yet at the same time logical and not glaringly incongruous with the inherent nature of the character. That's how to keep the books interesting (Judd Winick and Devin Grayson, please take note...)! Also, the one-shot approach is something I wholeheartedly approve of, so in short, this book's been doing a lot of things that I reckon really good comics should. Let's hope Dini gets more DC work soon - I'd love to see him tackle some underused, obscure characters and breathe new life into them. :)

As for Batman, I'm getting the same impression that I always do with Morrison - that he's going to put his stamp on the book in some (most likely controversial) way, thus turning it into 'Grant Morrison's Batman', complete with new mannerisms (does anyone else give Bats that daft 'hhh' thing?), m.o., and whatnot. I don't enjoy vanity projects, and this doesn't look as if it's going to change my mind any time soon, IMO.



So its automatically a vanity project if a writer puts their own stamp on a character?

Why not just start a bonfire for comics, you'll kill the industry slower.

[chap22]

So its automatically a vanity project if a writer puts their own stamp on a character?

Why not just start a bonfire for comics, you'll kill the industry slower.
man, i'm shocked. it took nolan a good 30-45 minutes longer to post this than i expected...:p

[nolanjwerner]

man, i'm shocked. it took nolan a good 30-45 minutes longer to post this than i expected...:p

I was in class.

Notice what I said before about how I like Dini more right now though. Honestly Grant isn't doing it for me with this.

[Punchy]

Batman.

Detective has been dull, I don't understand the appeal.

[mauer]

i'm really liking Grant's Batman. but i'm absolutely LOVING Dini's 'Tec.
Me too! I hadn't planned on picking up Detective, but got the first issue on a whim and I'm so glad I did.

[Redeem]

Right Now, Batman... I'm really liking Batman and Son!

[EmeraldGuy32]

Even with only two issues out, Morrison's Batman blows Dini's out of the Batcave.

[Johnny Smith]

Batman.

Detective has been dull, I don't understand the appeal.

Old School! :D

[Johnny Smith]

Too bad this poll doesn't have the option to pick both :(

[d0dg3r]

Which am I currently enjoying more? Liked the last issue of Batman better than the current issue of Detective. Not that it sucked rocks but a few things about it took a little shine off Dini's star for the moment.

[Sunless]

Detective.

Morrison sucks.

[Excelsior!]

So its automatically a vanity project if a writer puts their own stamp on a character?

Why not just start a bonfire for comics, you'll kill the industry slower.

If by 'putting their own stamp on a character' you mean 'making a deep, indelible mark on the very essence of the character that only serves to muddy the waters, hamper the long-term appeal of the character, and can only be removed with a COIE-style reboot, all of which is likely to further alienate all but the established, institutionalised fans', then yeah, I guess so... ;)

I'll say it again, with a little more 'oomph!' this time: when both Dini and Morrison are dead and buried, Batman will still be around. That is, if the current comics establishment doesn't render him totally unreadable first.

[Habitual]

I want to say Detective and if you'd asked me a few weeks ago that definitely would've been the answer, but, Dini has kept most of the scripts short and tight, almost too short.

Going to mull this over a little more and post later.

Hab

[nolanjwerner]

If by 'putting their own stamp on a character' you mean 'making a deep, indelible mark on the very essence of the character that only serves to muddy the waters, hamper the long-term appeal of the character, and can only be removed with a COIE-style reboot, all of which is likely to further alienate all but the established, institutionalised fans', then yeah, I guess so... ;)

I'll say it again, with a little more 'oomph!' this time: when both Dini and Morrison are dead and buried, Batman will still be around. That is, if the current comics establishment doesn't render him totally unreadable first.



Its that kind of attitude that is at the heart of why comics in America aren't in the literary mainstream.

Thanks for proving my point about fanboy anti intellectualism.

[chap22]

Its that kind of attitude that is at the heart of why comics in America aren't in the literary mainstream.

Thanks for proving my point about fanboy anti intellectualism.

i tell ya, you can practically set your watch by it...:D

[Excelsior!]

Its that kind of attitude that is at the heart of why comics in America aren't in the literary mainstream.

Thanks for proving my point about fanboy anti intellectualism.

Anti-pseudointellectualism, and it's that kind of attitude, where straight-forward, unpretentious storytelling is considered 'low-brow', that alienated a lot of readers twenty-odd years ago, and is continuing to do so.

Also, if you'd bothered to read my post without your usual blinkers and hadn't already leapt on the defensive, you'd have also read the bit where I included anally-retentive fanboy-pandering like 'Infinite Crisis' as well. It's not just the likes of Morrison that tick me off, it's the bulk of the comic industry, where a huge percentage of the books are nigh-on unreadable due to being so goddamn insular (almost by design!!! :eek: ), and yet the bods in charge bemoan the fact that the audience has been consistently dwindling since the eighties, and there's no influx of new readers.

Anti-intellectualism? Not if you mean the dictionary definition, no, but certainly if you include the connotations that you're apparently making. Anti-institionalisation? Damn right I am. And if that means ignoring the current comics readership and focussing on the wider consumers by providing accessible comics with a long-term future and little in the way of 'clutter', then so be it.

It was that kind of attitude that made comics mainstream back in their heyday, all those years ago. Not the attitude that panders to the fandom's version of the Literati.

[Excelsior!]

i tell ya, you can practically set your watch by it...:D

Hell, I've developed a 'Nolan-sense', where my head starts buzzing as soon as he replies to any of my posts. ;)

[IceGambit]

Its kind of unfair to ask this before Morrison's first arc is over.

Well, the issues can be judged by the art as the very least, and the scripts, even if the plot isn't done. I think a comic book should be entertaining in every issue, not judged in arcs. Let's judge the arcs later, when we can compare Dini's run to Morrison's run. This week's Uncanny is a good example of a big arc having a very entertaining issue by itself, whereas Bru's other three issues were veeeeerrrry slow and did not impress by themselves.

[BillReed]

As of the first two issues, Detective. But from skimming the new 'Tec, I am disappointed. We'll see in a second.

[nolanjwerner]

i tell ya, you can practically set your watch by it...:D



No, you can set your day of the week by when I accuse someone of anti-intellectualism.

[nolanjwerner]

Anti-pseudointellectualism, and it's that kind of attitude, where straight-forward, unpretentious storytelling is considered 'low-brow', that alienated a lot of readers twenty-odd years ago, and is continuing to do so.

Also, if you'd bothered to read my post without your usual blinkers and hadn't already leapt on the defensive, you'd have also read the bit where I included anally-retentive fanboy-pandering like 'Infinite Crisis' as well. It's not just the likes of Morrison that tick me off, it's the bulk of the comic industry, where a huge percentage of the books are nigh-on unreadable due to being so goddamn insular (almost by design!!! :eek: ), and yet the bods in charge bemoan the fact that the audience has been consistently dwindling since the eighties, and there's no influx of new readers.

Anti-intellectualism? Not if you mean the dictionary definition, no, but certainly if you include the connotations that you're apparently making. Anti-institionalisation? Damn right I am. And if that means ignoring the current comics readership and focussing on the wider consumers by providing accessible comics with a long-term future and little in the way of 'clutter', then so be it.

It was that kind of attitude that made comics mainstream back in their heyday, all those years ago. Not the attitude that panders to the fandom's version of the Literati.



You want to know how to get new readers in comic stores?

Put out intelligent projects aimed at adults and get people to follow creators.

Its worked for books and films.

Cut out the continuity and focus on collected editions instead of individual issues.

[nolanjwerner]

Well, the issues can be judged by the art as the very least, and the scripts, even if the plot isn't done. I think a comic book should be entertaining in every issue, not judged in arcs. Let's judge the arcs later, when we can compare Dini's run to Morrison's run. This week's Uncanny is a good example of a big arc having a very entertaining issue by itself, whereas Bru's other three issues were veeeeerrrry slow and did not impress by themselves.



Its ridiculous to judge a story arc based on individual components.

I have a background in literature and its really hard to judge a book based on chapters. Its easier to judge a play based on acts though.

[IceGambit]

Its ridiculous to judge a story arc based on individual components.

Well, we just differ on what comics should offer. You said above that they should focus on collected editions, but I like to read a monthly story (not necessarily one that concludes, but has redeeming qualitities on its own, like this recent Uncanny issue I mentioned). I say that the stronger book is the one that offers more month-to-month quality. Precious few arcs could equal Detective in month-to-month comparisons, but they are out there. Unfortunately, most writers today are writing for the trades even though the issues come out every month. Trades offer neither the thrill of collecting or the slim possibility of future value increase. Bendis' Daredevil run may have been good but it took forever to tell a story. The same story could've been told in half the time. I feel that way about most comics today.

[nolanjwerner]

Well, we just differ on what comics should offer. You said above that they should focus on collected editions, but I like to read a monthly story (not necessarily one that concludes, but has redeeming qualitities on its own, like this recent Uncanny issue I mentioned). I say that the stronger book is the one that offers more month-to-month quality. Precious few arcs could equal Detective in month-to-month comparisons, but they are out there. Unfortunately, most writers today are writing for the trades even though the issues come out every month. Trades offer neither the thrill of collecting or the slim possibility of future value increase. Bendis' Daredevil run may have been good but it took forever to tell a story. The same story could've been told in half the time. I feel that way about most comics today.


First point, honestly, comics would be SOOOO much better off if the collecterism disappeared.




My issue with single issues is less aesthetic and more practical. A 3 dollar single issue isn't economically competitive with a 10 dollar manga collection, a 15-20 dollar DVD or CD or an 8-10 dollar paperback novel. A trade paperback is.

If monthly serialized comics were economically competitive then I could care less. But I think its pretty clear from both the reaction in and outside the comic reading community that this is not the case.

And the best thing you can throw out is blaming the writers and wanting to force them to write the way you want it to be done.

I've said a number of times that I think that the monthly serialized comic is going to be phased out over the next 10-15 years. Now where it goes from there is up for debate. Honestly, it could go a lot of ways. Maybe we keep the same format and publish it less regularly (which I think is a terrible idea), we could go the Japanese anthology/collected route (which I really like) or the European graphic novel route (well the Franco-Belgian model). Both of those ar eplaces where comics are accepted in the mainstream.

But something needs to change. The worst thing we can do is not be able to evolve.

[deganawida]

Its ridiculous to judge a story arc based on individual components.

I have a background in literature and its really hard to judge a book based on chapters. Its easier to judge a play based on acts though.

It's ridiculous to compare comics to literature in general, as most literature doesn't have at least 50% of its storytelling done through visual representation. It is far more appropriate to compare comics to plays, as both entail writing and visual representation (i.e. actors, costumes, set pieces, and so on).

[nolanjwerner]

It's ridiculous to compare comics to literature in general, as most literature doesn't have at least 50% of its storytelling done through visual representation. It is far more appropriate to compare comics to plays, as both entail writing and visual representation (i.e. actors, costumes, set pieces, and so on).


Actually, most plays are less visual.

Film and comics are probably the best comparisons.

But there are many people who include plays in "literature" (which seems to be this broad nebulous category of really good stuff and, honestly, all the people i've asked don't do much to refute this) and some would include films as well.

[Action Ace]

I am enjoying Detective more, but I really like the writing on both.

[Excelsior!]

You want to know how to get new readers in comic stores?

Put out intelligent projects aimed at adults and get people to follow creators.

Its worked for books and films.

Cut out the continuity and focus on collected editions instead of individual issues.

Arthouse stuff, indie stuff, etc.? Sure. Mainstream, general-public stuff? Nope.

Look at it this way - Jazz and Classical Music are both artforms that have, frankly, seen better days. Jazz history, in particular, mirrors comics history to an uncanny degree, give or take 10 years. Both forms peaked, both artistically and commercially, when the focus was on making the music as great as it could possibly be, and then getting it out to as many potential listeners as possible. Similarly, both began the decline that continues to this day when they started catering to the critics and the academic niche market as 'high art', while a bland, watered down, 'populist' strain was offered to the masses (I'm generalising here - guys like Dexter Gordon never stopped turning out top-notch stuff).

I reckon the same has happened with comics - sure, people blame the '90s speculators, but much of the blame has to be pointed at the Direct Market and the 'Comics aren't for kids anymore!' wave of the mid-/late-'80s. What you're suggesting essentially feeds that mentality, whereas I'm proposing the return to single issue stories sold in newsstands to the regular consumer, truly accessible to all ages. Hell, it already exists over here with comics like The Beano - when I was a kid around a decade ago, everyone was reading it.

As for continuity, it's simply quality control, no more, no less. Ignore it, and you render other stories inconsenquential and worthless, not to mention confusing people with a ton of contradictions. However, base entire stories around piddling details, and your enter 'anally-retentive fanboy-pandering' territory, which is equally bad. The key with comics is accessibility - remember that every issue could be someone's first, while at the same time it could also be someone's 1000th. Mark Gruenwald and Stan Lee both understood this - Gru was a big one for not liking 'insular' storytelling, while Stan nailed it in one soundbyte: "Give 'em what they want. Just not what they think they want."

[Young Vision]

Batman by an inch, but both are just scrumtrulecent.

[nolanjwerner]

Arthouse stuff, indie stuff, etc.? Sure. Mainstream, general-public stuff? Nope.

Except that the mainstream is actually hurting the indie stuff to a substantial degree.

More then most media that i've looked at. Even substantially more then film (where its probably teh closest).

If we even went to 50 percent superheroes we'd be so much better off.

I think Morrison said something to the degree of: There's something wrong with the comic industry if people are seeing superhero movies in droves, something else I don't remember adn eating sugary superhero cereal and comic sales aren't substantially going up.

And honestly, that goes to a lot of differnet things but the big ones for me are: a monopoly of one genre (and I really can't see any arguments against that), a retail network that doesn't work, lack of marketing (which says a lot when Spider Man 2 does almost a billion dollars in business) and inacessible content (which is similar to but slightly differnet from my first post--read continuity and uneconomical format here).

If you look at the popular comics in basically any other country (native ones, not american imports), superheroes are generally a fairly minor genre.





Look at it this way - Jazz and Classical Music are both artforms that have, frankly, seen better days. Jazz history, in particular, mirrors comics history to an uncanny degree, give or take 10 years. Both forms peaked, both artistically and commercially, when the focus was on making the music as great as it could possibly be, and then getting it out to as many potential listeners as possible. Similarly, both began the decline that continues to this day when they started catering to the critics and the academic niche market as 'high art', while a bland, watered down, 'populist' strain was offered to the masses (I'm generalising here - guys like Dexter Gordon never stopped turning out top-notch stuff).


First of all, my familiarity with both musical genres goes as far as what i've heard on NPR so i can't really comment on that. Mostly what I read was that both industries got in to trouble because they failed to actively attract new listeners.

But I do disagree with you on "making the product as great as it could possibly be." Frankly the product was never very good then (for comics, no idea about jazz) but it was aimed at kids. The product is a lot better now but its not aimed at kids. The best way to market the stuff is to go after adults and show that tehy weren't the comics your parents grew up with.

Manga already has the younger kids, its pointless to go after them. But if you hook adult readers not only will the acceptance of comics as an art form grow (because adults are the ones who set the definitions of art more often then not) but the sales will go up (although going after anyone is better then what comics are doing now).








I reckon the same has happened with comics - sure, people blame the '90s speculators, but much of the blame has to be pointed at the Direct Market and the 'Comics aren't for kids anymore!' wave of the mid-/late-'80s. What you're suggesting essentially feeds that mentality, whereas I'm proposing the return to single issue stories sold in newsstands to the regular consumer, truly accessible to all ages. Hell, it already exists over here with comics like The Beano - when I was a kid around a decade ago, everyone was reading it.


It wasn't the comics arne't for kids boom, it was the speculation boom of people who aw them as investments and not art. Those are the people who damn near killed the whole art form.

And yeah, I am feeding that mentality. But thats because people who don't read "comics" would read Maus, Watchmen and Sandman. So it shows me that something is being done right.





As for continuity, it's simply quality control, no more, no less. Ignore it, and you render other stories inconsenquential and worthless, not to mention confusing people with a ton of contradictions. However, base entire stories around piddling details, and your enter 'anally-retentive fanboy-pandering' territory, which is equally bad. The key with comics is accessibility - remember that every issue could be someone's first, while at the same time it could also be someone's 1000th. Mark Gruenwald and Stan Lee both understood this - Gru was a big one for not liking 'insular' storytelling, while Stan nailed it in one soundbyte: "Give 'em what they want. Just not what they think they want."


No, quality control is quality control.

Continuity, regardless of what it was originally intended for, has become something far different. As long as one of the primary fan impulses (if not the primary fan impulse) is to judge a work based on how it fits in with "continuity," the entire creative medium is doomed (considering that Marvel and DC make up probably more then half of the non-manga market).

I disagree with Stan Lee there. Thats entirely pandering. I agree that the key is acessibility but the things that the fans want are inaccessible works. How do you give the fans what they want when what they want isn't good for the medium or the industry?

[Groovie Mann]

'tec. batmans good too. and all star batman is always a hoot.

[Tobias]

Just read the latest Detective. I'm going with that. As much as I loved Morrison's issues, Dini's just amazing.

[SouthtownKid]

I disagree with Stan Lee there. Thats entirely pandering. I agree that the key is acessibility but the things that the fans want are inaccessible works. How do you give the fans what they want when what they want isn't good for the medium or the industry?That's not what Stan Lee meant at all. He was talking about things fans thought they wanted, but if they ever got them, they wouldn't end up liking it. And he didn't come up with the idea...it's an axiom used in all forms of entertainment.

This example is pretty old by now, but if you've ever seen the old TV show 'Moonlighing,' every episode was about whether Bruce Willis and Cybil Shepard's characters were going to get together. Fans wanted them to -- or at least they thought they did. Pretty much as soon as it happened, the whole show completely tanked. Because what the fans really enjoyed was the sexual tension between the two characters, the anticipation. Giving the fans what they thought they wanted removed what they actually liked about the show.

That's the kind of thing Stan Lee was talking about.

edit: by the way... I completely agree with you on continuity.

[The Shadow]

My issue with single issues is less aesthetic and more practical. A 3 dollar single issue isn't economically competitive with a 10 dollar manga collection, a 15-20 dollar DVD or CD or an 8-10 dollar paperback novel. A trade paperback is.

If monthly serialized comics were economically competitive then I could care less. But I think its pretty clear from both the reaction in and outside the comic reading community that this is not the case.
But Marvel and DC are getting the best of both worlds now... they get my "I love the monthlies" money and your "I only buy trades" money.

As a business would YOU stop a revenue stream??? Why eliminate one? Especially, as you point out, trades might be more economically advantageous but there are people like me that don't mind spending the $3.00? The companies make more off of me than you. Why would they phase my buying habits out???

Comics have been around 70 years and will be around long after we're gone. If you've studied history you know that radio was the death knell of the newspaper... TV was going to kill them both... but the papers and TV and radio all found a niche and all three are still around... despite the onslaught of the internet!

Are you old enough to remember when computers were going to make offices paper free? the opposite happened and we use more paper now than before!

[Drcharles]

Detective comic for me, I prefer the art of Don Kramer this month and hopefully in the next coming mths to the Kuberts.

Oh, how could I forget

Simone Bianchis' Mega glorious cvrs........
does any one know when these cvrs by Bianchi will stop, now that hes gone over to Marvel..............

[Excelsior!]

If we even went to 50 percent superheroes we'd be so much better off.

I agree - during the heyday of comics you had action, romance, war, crime, horror, etc. comics. Bloody Wertham ruined that back then, but it'd go a long way in restoring comics in the public consciousness if the medium was broader in scope.

Mostly what I read was that both industries got in to trouble because they failed to actively attract new listeners.

Speaking as someone who knows about this well, especially in the case of Jazz, the problem was the creators getting out of touch with the audience, and taking the easy route of serving just the fans. Just like speciality stores and the Direct Market - there's a place for them, but it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of the industry.

But I do disagree with you on "making the product as great as it could possibly be." Frankly the product was never very good then (for comics, no idea about jazz) but it was aimed at kids. The product is a lot better now but its not aimed at kids. The best way to market the stuff is to go after adults and show that they weren't the comics your parents grew up with.

Sorry - totally disagree with this in every way, shape and form.

Manga already has the younger kids, its pointless to go after them. But if you hook adult readers not only will the acceptance of comics as an art form grow (because adults are the ones who set the definitions of art more often then not) but the sales will go up (although going after anyone is better then what comics are doing now).

And yeah, I am feeding that mentality. But thats because people who don't read "comics" would read Maus, Watchmen and Sandman. So it shows me that something is being done right.

Those are still pretty 'niche-market' to most people - in this country at least, the odds are that more people, of any age, have bought/still buy reprints of Marvel and DC comics - from newsagents, no less - than have heard of Sandman, Maus or Watchmen, or buy Manga of any kind.

[nolanjwerner]

Detective comic for me, I prefer the art of Don Kramer this month and hopefully in the next coming mths to the Kuberts.

Oh, how could I forget

Simone Bianchis' Mega glorious cvrs........
does any one know when these cvrs by Bianchi will stop, now that hes gone over to Marvel..............


Bianchi's covers are amazing.

IIRC, his contract lets him to one cover a month for DC.



What is it when Dini gets Williams and Kramer (who I seriously think is one of the most underrated artists in American comics) and Morrison gets Kubert?

[Kenro]

That's like asking me which is my favorite type of cheesecake. It's all good. They both offer something good yet different to the table. I'm going to go with grant -just barely tho'. I'm more curious about where his story is going.

[The 'Nam]

Morrison ftw!

[carl kolchak]

You want to know how to get new readers in comic stores?

Put out intelligent projects aimed at adults and get people to follow creators.

Its worked for books and films.

Cut out the continuity and focus on collected editions instead of individual issues.

I would love for that to be the case, but people don't really follow creators in regards to film. Frankly, outside of books or music or painting. I can't think of popular creator driven fields. One can argue that plays have become more mushy commercially minded. Less O'Neill, more Webber.

We don't live in a world where Cronenberg or Lynch or Zhang Yimou makes the top box office film. The top box office film is the new Pirates movie. The influence is in the tools that get stolen from creator's art (Like the techinques in Crouching Tiger that then got used in more commercial ventures).

Comics, like film, is still presided over by suits in a board room. There may be films by Anderson or Soderbergh or comics by Moore or Gaiman. But they still have to go through the hands of the Harvey Weinstiens or Quesadas or Didios. Again, I wish that Alan Moore had a say on how comics should be created, but his stuff is still never gonna top an X-book.

[canugrok]

You should have done:

1. Detective Comics by a mile. Batman sucks.
2. Both good but Detective Comics is a lot better.
3. Both good but Detective Comics is a little better.
4. Both good but Batman is a little better.
5. Both good but Batman is a lot better.
6. Batman by a mile. Detective Comics sucks.

I'm going with #3....not weinering out...love both takes...

still a good time to be a Batman fan with these two titles, and hoping that Brave & Bold will be just as much fun.

[KyleCowstar]

Detective sadly. Batman should be better though.

[NielsBohr]

After last ish, Batman. I abso-effin'-lutely loved it.

[T-Rex]

What a tough call, both books are so freaking hott at the moment. This question might be better to ask when both books are at least 5 issues deep. Grants Batman is building up steam and Dini is working magic with these 1 issue stories that look like they'll all be fitting into one larger story as time progresses.

No answer from me, i'm taking the diplomatic approach on this one.

[Grassy]

Gah! It is a tough choice right now. I picked Detective, but after I get the next Batman I might change my mind. I love how both are including Bruce on a regular basis.

[shady878]

Batman has been slowly growing on me.

I havent read detective.

[Dr. Crane]

Surprised to see Detective beating Batman in this poll. I follow both titles... (I voted for Batman by the way).

Morrison's fresh and fun approach (without it being goofy) on Batman has been great! Love Kubert's art and it has me waiting eagerly for each issue.:cool:

Great seeing Paul Dini writing Detective - and the one-shot stories are nice for a change. Just too bad Dini won't be hanging around for long.:(