Identity Crisis---Heartbreaking?

[samuraipcats]

So, I finally got around to picking up the hardcover of Identity Crisis today. I had heard that a lot of people hated the characterizations and stuff like that, and so far I think it's a case of, even if the story isn't the greatest or most thoroughly thought out, it's still written amazingly. In fact, despite knowing what happens throughout it, it still got to me when they killed Sue, and it really got to me just before Jack Drake died. Like...those pages where he's just talking to Tim were the most emotionally involved I think I've ever been in any comic or book.

I honestly don't know why I'm posting this...maybe I'll keep you updated though as I read more.

[TheTourist]

It's not bad up until the very end, when it gets terrible. In fact, the ending is SO bad that it pretty much ruins the entire story.

[gwangung]

Not a fan of the book....there were far too many moments that took me out of the book and made me go, "WTF???? Now THAT was stoopid...."

[mechagrifter]

are we starting another identity thread? oh man.... i hear the haters coming..

[toede]

I loved Identity Crisis.

It was all good. Could have used more Spiderman though. and Wolverine.

[samuraipcats]

It's not bad up until the very end, when it gets terrible. In fact, the ending is SO bad that it pretty much ruins the entire story.


Eh...the ending really wasn't THAT bad when I read it...I mean, people can do some pretty ____ed up things for attention :\

[TheTourist]

Eh...the ending really wasn't THAT bad when I read it...I mean, people can do some pretty ____ed up things for attention :\

That wasn't the part that sucked. What sucked was that the killer just happened to have brought along a flamethrower to her little prank. The writer was obviously just making up the story as he went along with little or no forethought, which is always a bad idea but it's especially careless when you're writing a mystery.

[BillReed]

Heartbreakingly shi<mf>tty, yes.

[samuraipcats]

Heartbreakingly shi<mf>tty, yes.


But, to be fair, you do have a Snakes on a Plane reference under you're avatar...

[alexeiluthor]

the story's so-so. The selling point of it all, for me anyway, was the entirety of issue 5. Bought the TPB last week, and the result is the same: I still cry when Jack Drake dies.

damn youse, Brad Meltzer:)

[Neuromancer]

Well, as I have said earlier, my take on IC isn't that it stinks, just that it was INCREDIBLY overrated, at least on the story end. Rags, however, hit the ball out of the park on art!

[gwangung]

Rags, however, hit the ball out of the park on art!

Aint gonna argue with that....

[Xaraan]

I LOVED Identity Crisis.

Cried during the funeral when Ralph lost it and when Robin was trying to get back to his dad - That one really got to me (Dad/Son thing I guess).

Only comic that has ever made me cry.

[BillReed]

But, to be fair, you do have a Snakes on a Plane reference under you're avatar...

Your point?

[SouthtownKid]

I thought the giant plot hole was heartbreaking, because I had been digging it up until the explanation. Beautiful art, though.

[MoneyMelon]

I thought all the characterizations were good, but I didn't really care for the story. The rape scene was a little too heavy for me. Plus the mystery flame thrower thing was kind of retarded.

[GraniteCity]

it still got to me when they killed Sue, and it really got to me just before Jack Drake died.Look, I respect that you should read the story and form your own opinion. If you decide you really enjoyed it, that's fine. But let me put it out there, killing established characters for the shock value and a cheap tug on the audience's emotions is the easiest thing in the world to do. How often do the promos announce "In this milestone issue an X-Man/Titan/Avenger/Legionaire/Girl Scout/Yankee/Monkeyboy Dies!"? In the comics industry (and much of TV), it's become one tired, worn out cliche. It requires no understanding of the characters because it's always sad, for the readers and the characters, when someone dies (unless the DOA is a total butt wipe.)

Any fool can pull off writing that junk. It takes much more ability and integrity to understand the emotional core of a character, come up with a coherent plot that intergrates the characters effectively, and provide a credible resolution that makes a valid conclusion about the nature of the characters. In my opinion, Identity Crisis didn't do that at all. Meltzer was allowed to completely warp most of the characters to provide generic fuel for his contrived, manipulative story. Not impressed at all.

[chap22]

Look, I respect that you should read the story and form your own opinion. If you decide you really enjoyed it, that's fine. But let me put it out there, killing established characters for the shock value and a cheap tug on the audience's emotions is the easiest thing in the world to do. How often do the promos announce "In this milestone issue an X-Man/Titan/Avenger/Legionaire/Girl Scout/Yankee/Monkeyboy Dies!"? In the comics industry (and much of TV), it's become one tired, worn out cliche. It requires no understanding of the characters because it's always sad, for the readers and the characters, when someone dies (unless the DOA is a total butt wipe.)

Any fool can pull off writing that junk. It takes much more ability and integrity to understand the emotional core of a character, come up with a coherent plot that intergrates the characters effectively, and provide a credible resolution that makes a valid conclusion about the nature of the characters. In my opinion, Identity Crisis didn't do that at all. Meltzer was allowed to completely warp most of the characters to provide generic fuel for his contrived, manipulative story. Not impressed at all.


and you are entitled to say that all you want. and as far as plot holes and shock tactics go, you're absolutely right. IdC certainly had those in alarmingly unnecessary and hackish proportion. but i for one, thought Meltzer absolutely NAILED "the emotional core" of Green Arrow, Ralph, Batman, Flash, Ray Palmer, and most everybody else he focused on. did he put them in a situation i loathed? yes. did he craft an incredibly poor "mystery"? again, admittedly yes. but truthfully he told us from the beginning that this was an emotional character piece much more than it was a murder mystery; that just happened to be there too. slam him all you want to for poor decisions, etc., but whether or not he got most of these characters and their voices is not even in question to me.

[Johnny Triangles]

But, to be fair, you do have a Snakes on a Plane reference under you're avatar...

The difference is that Snakes on a Plane is bad on purpose.

The Jack Drake part was awful. That cliched speech where Jack Drake out of the blue tells Tim how proud he is of him and how he loves him was such a cheesy action movie cliche, it screamed "He's gonna dieeeee!!!! Don't leave, this is a goodbye speech!!!!" I read that scene and it was so pathetically obvious that it was blatantly heavyhanded and transparent audience manipulation to make Jack Drake's death powerful, but what was more shocking to me was that people on the internet actually found it sincere. Everything leading up to that issue, Jack Drake hated Tim being Robin. Then he gets proud of him and gives him a tearjerker speech? It's like Meltzer has a cliche handbook. Wife dies right after hero gives a speech about how much he loves her? Check. Dies on their anniversary? Check. Pregnancy test lying totally unburned and readable right next to her body, even though the house and Sue herself are charbroiled? Ho-kay. The only cliche missing was Clark telling Ralph "Dammit Dibny, you're too damn personally involved in this murder. Let it go. YOU'RE OFF THE CASE." Then Ralph could have slammed his badge I mean JLA Membership card on the table and said "I'M OFF THE FORCE" Meltzer forgot another corny action cliche, he could have had Sue say she was 3 days from retirement before she got murdered too. I really think Identity Crisis was Meltzer's tryout for a Michael Bay cop flick.

[Johnny Triangles]

and you are entitled to say that all you want. and as far as plot holes and shock tactics go, you're absolutely right. IdC certainly had those in alarmingly unnecessary and hackish proportion. but i for one, thought Meltzer absolutely NAILED "the emotional core" of Green Arrow, Ralph, Batman, Flash, Ray Palmer, and most everybody else he focused on. did he put them in a situation i loathed? yes. did he craft an incredibly poor "mystery"? again, admittedly yes. but truthfully he told us from the beginning that this was an emotional character piece much more than it was a murder mystery; that just happened to be there too. slam him all you want to for poor decisions, etc., but whether or not he got most of these characters and their voices is not even in question to me.

I thought all the emotion was heavy-handed, ham-fisted and insincere. To his credit, he was better in that department in JLA #0. It still wasn't totally sincere, still about as subtle as a jackhammer, but I did find it semi-believable this time.

[The Shadow]

Identity Crisis---Heartbreaking?
Yes... yes it is.

It's heartbreaking that I spent my hard earned money on it. It's heartbreaking that I read the whole thing. It's heartbreaking that I haven't sent mine back to DC. It's heartbreaking that people still seem to like it. It's heartbreaking that it was the basis for everything that's happened in the DCU since.

Yes... it's quite heartbreaking.

[chap22]

I thought all the emotion was heavy-handed, ham-fisted and insincere. To his credit, he was better in that department in JLA #0. It still wasn't totally sincere, still about as subtle as a jackhammer, but I did find it semi-believable this time.
that's because you're a butch, supertough, emo-hating man's man.:rolleyes:

:p

sometimes in real life JT emotion actually hits you pretty hard. have a loving wife taken from you unexpectedly or a father killed while you're on your way to see him. that bites just a little.

the situations were ham-fisted and heavy handed, sure; but i thought the emotion of the characters in response to those situations was all too real. but hey, what can i say? i'm obviously not as tough as you...;) :cool: hell you probably didn't cry at Old Yeller either, did you?

[artguy]

listen to Brad Meltzer's podcast on dc's website and you'll see his logic behind it all.....it is truly, to me, up there with dkr and watchmen :eek: sacrelige!

[Johnny Triangles]

that's because you're a butch, supertough, emo-hating man's man.:rolleyes:

:p

sometimes in real life JT emotion actually hits you pretty hard. have a loving wife taken from you unexpectedly or a father killed while you're on your way to see him. that bites just a little.

the situations were ham-fisted and heavy handed, sure; but i thought the emotion of the characters in response to those situations was all too real. but hey, what can i say? i'm obviously not as tough as you...;) :cool: hell you probably didn't cry at Old Yeller either, did you?


It's not about toughness. ASM #400 with Aunt May's death was heartbreaking with lots of wussy crying, but I bought the emotion and it felt sincere. Dude, I even teared up at Walk The Line when Johnny Cash proposes to June Carter. It's not that I hate men crying or anything like that, it's about what I felt was bad writing. I never felt like these people really cared about each other, every moment was crafted so artificially that it felt downright manipulative (like Jack Drake giving Tim his blessing out of nowhere and giving a poignant speech just to make his death more tragic or the pregnancy test by Sue's body). It's not men crying I dislike, it's cheesy movie cliches out of A Man Apart of Stallone 80s cop flicks that made the emotions ring false to me. Another reason I guess it felt so false to me was that so much time is spent in the DCU having heroes bicker and be at each others' throats and not get along, from the time of Morrison's JLA we've grown accustomed to thinking of these guys as big loosely-affiliated egos that just work together out of necessity, that when Meltzer is trying to suddenly tell us that they're such a tight-knit loving family it feels like it's his inner fanboy talking and not actually the past few years of actual DC stories. Throw in all the fawning hero worship of Superman and Batman in the middle of the mourning ("what a tragedy...oh there's Superman, he's soOooOOOo wonderful, how wonderful he is...where was I? Oh yes, what a tragedy...") and the dialogue and reactions just come off even more inauthentic

[artguy]

this has been a very emotional day on rama

[chap22]

It's not about toughness. ASM #400 with Aunt May's death was heartbreaking with lots of wussy crying, but I bought the emotion and it felt sincere. Dude, I even teared up at Walk The Line when Johnny Cash proposes to June Carter. It's not that I hate men crying or anything like that, it's about what I felt was bad writing. I never felt like these people really cared about each other, every moment was crafted so artificially that it felt downright manipulative (like Jack Drake giving Tim his blessing out of nowhere and giving a poignant speech just to make his death more tragic or the pregnancy test by Sue's body). It's not men crying I dislike, it's cheesy movie cliches out of A Man Apart of Stallone 80s cop flicks that made the emotions ring false to me. Another reason I guess it felt so false to me was that so much time is spent in the DCU having heroes bicker and be at each others' throats and not get along, from the time of Morrison's JLA we've grown accustomed to thinking of these guys as big loosely-affiliated egos that just work together out of necessity, that when Meltzer is trying to suddenly tell us that they're such a tight-knit loving family it feels like it's his inner fanboy talking and not actually the past few years of actual DC stories. Throw in all the fawning hero worship of Superman and Batman in the middle of the mourning ("what a tragedy...oh there's Superman, he's soOooOOOo wonderful, how wonderful he is...where was I? Oh yes, what a tragedy...") and the dialogue and reactions just come off even more inauthentic
was Ollie's anger inauthentic? how about Bruce hugging Tim when he knew no words would help the boy? or Bruce visiting his parents' grave at the end? were those inauthentic? out-of-character? never seen before in DC history?

again i think you're making your argument based on the badly-overwrought "emotion" of the cliched situations. Jack's speech, the pregnancy test -- i agree. HORRIBLE overplaying of the conventional cliches. but the reactions of the folks left behind after those deaths, that was real. the deaths in IdC weren't what got me; it was Ollie and Ralph's reactions at the funeral, and the hug for Tim, and the short fuses, and the worry. i'm arguing that stuff is what Meltzer got right, and what, as i understand, he was really trying to do anyway, is show what's at the emotional core of these characters. how they react in situations like this is what shows their central core. i thought THAT'S the stuff he nailed. that's all i'm saying.

[Johnny Triangles]

was Ollie's anger inauthentic? how about Bruce hugging Tim when he knew no words would help the boy? or Bruce visiting his parents' grave at the end? were those inauthentic? out-of-character? never seen before in DC history?

again i think you're making your argument based on the badly-overwrought "emotion" of the cliched situations. Jack's speech, the pregnancy test -- i agree. HORRIBLE overplaying of the conventional cliches. but the reactions of the folks left behind after those deaths, that was real. the deaths in IdC weren't what got me; it was Ollie and Ralph's reactions at the funeral, and the hug for Tim, and the short fuses, and the worry. i'm arguing that stuff is what Meltzer got right, and what, as i understand, he was really trying to do anyway, is show what's at the emotional core of these characters. how they react in situations like this is what shows their central core. i thought THAT'S the stuff he nailed. that's all i'm saying.


You may very well be right. I think that maybe the parts I thought were cliched and cheesy like Jack's speech and Sue's pregnancy test and the anniversary (or was it a birthday, I forget) sucked me out of the story emotionally so much that I let it color my perception of all the other emotional scenes. Bruce's hug of Tim in "Face the Face" for some reason didn't come off as forced as his hug of Tim in Identity Crisis, so it may be that the bad parts of Identity Crisis just colored how I read the rest of the book.

[Supreme Convoy]

Yeah, Jack Drake's to me the most. I think it was because I was following the Robin book at the time and I got caught up in the father & son moments. Identity Crisis shook up that relationship obviously.