WW: CHICAGO: BENDIS ON THE RETURN OF HAWKEYE [Archive]

MattBrady

08-04-2006, 09:54 AM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/WW_Chicago_06/Marvel/ScarletWitch-new_t.jpg" border="0" align="right">The teasing is over. Done.

With New Avengers #26 Hawkeye is back.

And he’s got company.

“It’s a story called ‘The Ballad of Clint Barton and Wanda Maximoff,’” New Avengers writer Brian Bendis told Newsarama.

“It’s not only the return of Hawkeye, it’s the return of the Scarlet Witch. It’s them coming face to face after the events of House of M. It’s where they’ve been since House of M, when they found his costume,” Bendis continued. “This issue connects a couple of moments in House of M #8 – we see a little hint of Wanda at the end, and we see the costume on the wall in Avengers Mansion. We see how that costume got there, and we see what Hawekeye’s been doing, and how he basically can’t get on with his life until he confronts Wanda. So he’s looking for her, and he finds her. So it’s what they’ve been doing, and what the future has in store.”

Click <a href=http://www.newsarama.com/WW_Chicago_06/Marvel/NA_26.html>here</a> for this full WizardWorld story...

<blockquote>Newsarama's WizardWorld: Chicago '06 coverage is sponsored by ValiantFans.com, home to the fans of the VALIANT Universe.</blockquote><center><a href="http://www.valiantFans.com" TARGET="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/WW_Chicago_06/sponsor/valiantfans.gif" hspace="0" vspace="0" border=0></A></center>

Kryptons_Sun

08-04-2006, 04:22 PM

This is the second time I've seen it sort of inconspiculously mentioned that Damon Lindelof is behind the horrible lateness of Ultimate Hulk vs Wolverine. With him and Heinberg it should really put notice to the comic book companies to NOT HIRE FREAKIN' TV WRITERS!!!

Rod Odom

08-04-2006, 04:26 PM

The Scarlet Witch's face is off. It's someone else's face.

Johnny Smith

08-04-2006, 04:27 PM

"Leneil's first issue…the biggest question people have had about Ronin is how she's been shown as a guy, but is a hot girl - all of that will be answered. All of that was planned from the beginning.

Planned from the beginning?!? :p :p :p Pffft, what nonsense.

If Bendis can convince fandom of that statement, I'll believe he could sell refrigerators to Eskimos :rolleyes:

Rawkingbird

08-04-2006, 04:30 PM

"a period of time"?

Nine months, perhaps?

/baseless speculation.

BanMan

08-04-2006, 04:31 PM

If Bendis can convince fandom of that statement, I'll believe he could sell refrigerators to Eskimos :rolleyes:

You mean they don't need refrigerators? :confused: :p

Anyone think Iron Fist joins the New Avengers? I mean who else could it be?

Livewire2nd

08-04-2006, 04:31 PM

Timberoo

08-04-2006, 04:32 PM

Hawkeye & Scarlet Witch - I smell romance in the air.

kalorama

08-04-2006, 04:32 PM

Kryptons_Sun

08-04-2006, 04:32 PM

The Scarlet Witch's face is off. It's someone else's face.
John Travolta's?

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 04:34 PM

I LOVED the Motteditor comment!
"Although, not everyone's going to like it. I would love if everyone did. Motteditor - I'm telling you right now if you're reading this - you're not going to like it. I didn't write it to piss you off, but it just might happen that way. But you never know, and you might like it."
Great stuff!

Sounds intriguing... I'm in!

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 04:37 PM

Yeah. File that one away next to "Jessica Jones wasn't originally planned be Jessica Drew."
... what?

Bendis has stated repeatedly that he wanted to use Drew but Marvel said no (at the time it was "Who the hell is this Bendis guy?)"... so he created Jones who was originally just a rip off of Drew. Private Investigator, former hero, etc.

It's no big secret... unless you missed the memo. You did get the memo... right??? :p

strathcona

08-04-2006, 04:38 PM

Johnny Smith

08-04-2006, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by BMB
"Although, not everyone's going to like it. I would love if everyone did. Motteditor - I'm telling you right now if you're reading this - you're not going to like it. I didn't write it to piss you off, but it just might happen that way. But you never know, and you might like it."

Wow, Motteditor made the Marvel talking points for WizardWorld Chicago :rolleyes:

First the Joe Fridays, now the Bendis interview ...

benbacca37

08-04-2006, 04:39 PM

The Scarlet Witch's face is off. It's someone else's face.

Sorry but something (or things) keep distracting from her face.

Beheader

08-04-2006, 04:41 PM

So does this mean the girl in Young Avengers has to change her name again?

Johnny Smith

08-04-2006, 04:42 PM

The Scarlet Witch's face is off. It's someone else's face.

Greg Land's :p

kalorama

08-04-2006, 04:42 PM

Johnny Smith

08-04-2006, 04:44 PM

So does this mean the girl in Young Avengers has to change her name again?

Watch her end up being the love child of Clint and Wanda, magically aged to teendom by Wanda's hex power ... :p

Titan Slade

08-04-2006, 04:50 PM

I am a huge fan of Leinil Yu's art, but Bendis saying he draws as fast as Bagly, is just a little crazy. If Leinil draws 100 consecutive issues of Avengers without a fill in artist, I will suck Bendis ***k on video tape, and post it on youtube.

seanmac81

08-04-2006, 04:50 PM

Is this the 'Clint is returning' news we've been hearing about? I want to see him in a regular book, not just one issue by a writer who doesn't get him (not that I'll be seeing him in this issue anyway, I don't buy Bendis books).

The more Marvel news I read from Wizard World, the unhappier I am becoming.
I think this is just the "reintroducing Clint" issue. According to All the Rage over @ silverbulletcomics.com there was a column that said Hawkeye was going ot be featured heavily in a new team book that was not the Avengers and therefore not written by Bendis. So I think you're covered.

Davy

08-04-2006, 04:54 PM

I really love the above artwork, but given what has come before, I can't shake the feeling that this Scarlet Witch fan should just skip this one.

davy

Southwell

08-04-2006, 04:56 PM

Bring on 26!!!!!

About time we had us some hawkeye action..also would like him to be pissed at Wanda and stuff for causing his death and all...

he needs to lead an Avengers team ;)

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 04:58 PM

Y'know, if you're going to attempt to ridicule someone with sarcasm (to say nothing of silly emoticons) it's always a good idea to make sure you've got (A) your facts straight and (B) the high ground before you jump up and do the "gotcha" dance.
*cough*assclown*cough*

Seriously... get a sense of humour.
And there was absolutely NO "gotcha" dancing involved.

Because the blowback (to say nothing of the public embarrassment) when you turn out to be wrong can sting like a son of a bitch:
Blowback? Embarassment? Stinging? Cummon... we're on a public forum. You really think I care what you think of me? I went with the urban legend which, until this post, I thought was true. I had never heard ANY other tale from the start of Alias in 2001 until August 4, 2006. If I were the ONLY one out of that loop I might be slightly reddened in the face but I have a feeling there are plenty of people that thought this.

So, you're proven your geek knowledge is vaster than mine. Congratulations.
I bow to your dorkishness.

Here comes one of those rolleye things... wait for it... ready?

:rolleyes:

kalorama

08-04-2006, 05:02 PM

If I were the ONLY one out of that loop I might be slightly reddened in the face but I have a feeling there are plenty of people that thought this.

But those "other people" didn't go out of their way to make a point of putting their ignorance on display in a juvenile attempt to prove someone wrong over a minor side point that really didn't even bear comment upon (to say nothing of acting like an arrogant jackass in doing so). That honor was all yours, dickweed.

Kryptons_Sun

08-04-2006, 05:02 PM

... what?

Bendis has stated repeatedly that he wanted to use Drew but Marvel said no (at the time it was "Who the hell is this Bendis guy?)"... so he created Jones who was originally just a rip off of Drew. Private Investigator, former hero, etc.

It's no big secret... unless you missed the memo. You did get the memo... right??? :p

Here's your frickin memo, genius.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/07/27/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-61/

" You may have heard that ‘Alias was originally going to star Jessica Drew, Marvel Comics’ original Spider-Woman. You would have heard wrong, though.

[Bendis:] ‘Nope. This is an urban myth that I believe I will never live down. I was at one time toying with doing Jessica Drew because she has the best hair of any superhero in comics, but this book is entirely different than what that idea was to be.

This character is totally different in every way but sexual gender. And there’s that Jessica name that’s not going to help me convince anyone.

Any writer can tell you that the development process can be a sparkling and surprising one. You start in one place and end up in an entirely different one. I was also toying with a pornographic version of Dial H for Hero, doesn’t mean that this is that book either.’"

EDIT: Kalorama beat me to it. Congrats.

AdamYJ

08-04-2006, 05:03 PM

Hmm, I'm kind of betwixt and between on this one. As much as I like Clint and Wanda, I was hoping that Clint would stay away so Kate Bishop could keep being Hawkeye. Also, I was hoping Wanda would stay missing until the Young Avengers could go find her. YA has become my fave Marvel title, so I'm just hoping its interests are protected. Oh well, maybe Clint won't go back to being Hawkeye. He did "hang up his costume" after all.

It's too bad motteditor isn't going to like this, though.

kalorama

08-04-2006, 05:06 PM

So, you're proven your geek knowledge is vaster than mine.

No, I've just proven the difference between not speaking unless you actually know what you're talking about and keeping your mouth shut when you don't. It's a simple lesson, hard learned.

ManifestFury

08-04-2006, 05:07 PM

"Although, not everyone's going to like it. I would love if everyone did. Motteditor - I'm telling you right now if you're reading this - you're not going to like it. I didn't write it to piss you off, but it just might happen that way. But you never know, and you might like it."

Well then Bendis... here's hoping that I like it. Personally, I side with Mott about Hawkeye... and I think that you've needlessly heaped on Hawkeye has been... well, Needless.

Don't F*** up Hawkeye, Bendis. I've been a fan of yours since Powers started... but if you F*** up my boy Hawkeye... well, I'm gone.

I'm hanging with you Mott... let's see what Bendis does...

-MF

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:10 PM

But those "other people" didn't go out of their way to make a point of putting their vast ignorance on display in a juvenile attempt to prove someone wrong over a minor side point that really didn't even bear comment upon. That honor was all yours, dickweed.
No because there were only a few responses before mine... maybe no one else gave a crap you didn't know whereas I was trying to take the time (and put it in a humourous way... hence the memo comment).

Vast ignorance? Because I missed some interview stating the opposite? (Here's another rolleye thing) :rolleyes:

You must be a blast at parties. Life of the party and all. Your Klingon friends must revel in your opulent knowledge of all things dork.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:11 PM

Here's your frickin memo, genius.
No one has a sense of humour.

Apparently I was the only one not away of this being debunked.

Kryptons_Sun

08-04-2006, 05:12 PM

Man you're a hypocrite, The Shadow. And an ignorant douche bag. Good for you.

kalorama

08-04-2006, 05:13 PM

No because there were only a few responses before mine... maybe no one else gave a crap you didn't know whereas I was trying to take the time (and put it in a humourous way... hence the memo comment).

Oh, so by being an arrogant jerk (to say nothing of conspicuously wrong) you were actually doing me a favor?

Well there's only one response to such ridiculous, self-serving spin: :rolleyes:

And because it's Friday and I'm in a good mood, I won't even make fun of your incorrect usage of the word "opulent."

kalorama

08-04-2006, 05:14 PM

Man you're a hypocrite, The Shadow. And an ignorant douche bag. Good for you.

Hey, what did douchebags ever do to you to deserve such an insult?

Kryptons_Sun

08-04-2006, 05:14 PM

No one has a sense of humour.

Oh, I have a sense of humor. I find it very funny that, much like Mr. Earle in Batman Begins, you look like an idiot.

avengingtitan

08-04-2006, 05:17 PM

Motteditor,

OWENED!!!!!!

I was thinking the same thing.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:17 PM

Man you're a hypocrite, The Shadow. And an ignorant douche bag. Good for you.
Hypocrite?

How so? Are you talking about Wisdon's pot post?

And ignorant? Yeah... in many ways.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:19 PM

Well there's only one response to such ridiculous, self-serving spin: :rolleyes:
Thanks!

Regardless of what you THOUGHT the intention was, it was intended to be lighthearted.

And because it's Friday and I'm in a good mood, I won't even make fun of your incorrect usage of the word "opulent."
Opulent means wealth... as you "wealth of knowledge"

kalorama

08-04-2006, 05:19 PM

Motteditor,

OWENED!!!!!!

Who's Owen?

NightRiver

08-04-2006, 05:20 PM

Alex Maleev's art is awesome, but I would have loved it if Jae Lee did the art. His Scarlet Witch in the Young Avengers special was the best rendition of Wanda ever!

Blind Assassin

08-04-2006, 05:21 PM

Wow.

I am definately looking forward to this.

Bendis/Maleeve wowed me on DD.

I have read Maleev since single issues of 'the crow: dead time' and I have watched his art evolve over that time.

Nice to see it change and grow, and with Bendis writing, it's just icing on the cake.

Congrats, gang.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:21 PM

Alex Maleev's art is awesome, but I would have loved it if Jae Lee did the art. His Scarlet Witch in the Young Avengers special was the best rendition of Wanda ever!
Better than Perez's?

kalorama

08-04-2006, 05:22 PM

Opulent means wealth... as you "you have a wealth of knowledge"

I know what opulent means.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:22 PM

Hey, what did douchebags ever do to you to deserve such an insult?
Clever? Nope.

Witty? Nadda.

Overly original? Not even close.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:23 PM

I know what opulent means.
Maybe it was the context I used it in that threw you then.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:25 PM

Anyway... I'm not going to derail anymore.

Lets just talk about comics and not the meaning of opulent, attempts at humour or rolleyes.

Deal?

kalorama

08-04-2006, 05:26 PM

Maybe it was the context I used it in that threw you then.

Here you go again.

In standard usage opulent is used to descibe a quality of a physical thing. (jewels, furs, etc.) and means luxuriant. It only refers to "wealth" with regards to monetary value or affluence. It's not used to describe a quantity of something, esp. a nonphysical thing such as knowledge.

Anyway... I'm not going to derail anymore.

Considering the results so far, that would probably be a good idea for you.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:32 PM

It's not used to describe a quantity of something, esp. a nonphysical thing such as knowledge.
Taken from my (admittedly old... 1977) Dictionary: adj : rich and/or superior in quantity of knowledge or wealth; "a princely sum"; "vast knowledge"

So... if I used it wrong it was the dictionary's fault... not mine.

Meteoro7

08-04-2006, 05:33 PM

Hawkeye is back! What a surprise!

How long did he stay dead, anyway?

Bah. Even though I like him, it really takes away the drama when they can't keep their dead dead not even for a year.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:33 PM

Considering the results so far, that would probably be a good idea for you.
:rolleyes:

Must... stay on... topic...

So... you gonna get the comic?

kalorama

08-04-2006, 05:35 PM

Clever? Nope.

Witty? Nadda.

Overly original? Not even close.

This from the guy who quotes lines from a Batman move. Yes, originality and wit is clearly your area of expertise.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:36 PM

How long did he stay dead, anyway?

Bah. Even though I like him, it really takes away the drama when they can't keep their dead dead not even for a year.
He was dead (not counting the alternate world of the House of M) 2 years.

He did appear alive in She-Hulk recently but that was because he was brought forward in time from before he died, and returned before She-Hulk could warn him of his impending death. IIRC he was also shown in one of the recent Exiles issues too.

deldredz

08-04-2006, 05:36 PM

Post-Civil War Marvel is going to be so redonk. good.

Hurnslice

08-04-2006, 05:38 PM

I think the picture of the Scarlet Witch has opulance.

Just when I think I might drop the book, something comes along that makes me feel I should really pick it up.

And I will.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 05:38 PM

This from the guy who quotes lines from a Batman move. Yes, originality and wit is clearly your area of expertise.
When did I do that???

Do you mean this: Oh, I have a sense of humor. I find it very funny that, much like Mr. Earle in Batman Begins, you look like an idiot.
Cause if you did you are making fun of the wrong guy.

Bevbos

08-04-2006, 05:40 PM

What's wrong with you people?

Chill out!

Davy

08-04-2006, 05:43 PM

Clearly someone hasn't taken his meds today.

Davy

Gladiator X

08-04-2006, 05:43 PM

Man,if we end up having Clint and Wanda together as a couple then all of the AD,HoM, and everything else will be worth it to me.
I have always thought that these two should have been together since I started reading the Avengers back in the 70's.
Either way this story sounds really cool and I can't wait to tell my 16 year old daughter the news.Scarlet Witch is her favorite character and The Avengers is her favorite book so this should make her very happy.

:D

protege

08-04-2006, 05:44 PM

Wait- hawkeye's died- twice? It almost sounds like Wanda's torturing him, somehow. This sounds like a fill in issue, but i may have to checkk it out....

Radiate

08-04-2006, 05:45 PM

Hmmm read the whole Shadow Vs. Krypton Son and Kalorama thread lol, and gotta say a few things:

a) i thought what the Shadow said was true too. Always thought Bendis intended to use Jess Drew for Alias, but couldn't so created a new character. Now, i'm reading these other comic book myths lol.

and b) i thought it was clear he was just joking around with his sarcasm.

That's it. Back on topic:D

Hawkeye back? Hmm...i reckon he'll just be called Clint from now on, and won't be Hawkeye for a long time.

RADIATE!

IronWolf

08-04-2006, 05:55 PM

That Cover looks great.

Kryptons_Sun

08-04-2006, 05:56 PM

When did I do that???

Do you mean this:
Cause if you did you are making fun of the wrong guy.
No, he was making fun of you.

Kryptons_Sun

08-04-2006, 05:58 PM

Wait- hawkeye's died- twice? It almost sounds like Wanda's torturing him, somehow. This sounds like a fill in issue, but i may have to checkk it out.... I haven't followed the character for long, but I think it means the time in Avengers Disassembled, followed by in House of M when she made him de-exist again.

Bleh

08-04-2006, 06:03 PM

Well... when/if Lorna comes back from space, I hope Hawkeye tells the X-Men about Wanda and I hope Lorna finds out about HoM.

Wanda depowered innocent Lorna on purpose. Why? Because she's Magneto's daughter. Dr. Strange would of saved Lorna... but Wanda made sure she'd become human only because of who her father is. She was depowered just to give Magneto no hope. I'm hoping for revenge.

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 06:03 PM

Hmmm read the whole Shadow Vs. Krypton Son and Kalorama thread lol, and gotta say a few things:

a) i thought what the Shadow said was true too. Always thought Bendis intended to use Jess Drew for Alias, but couldn't so created a new character. Now, i'm reading these other comic book myths lol.

and b) i thought it was clear he was just joking around with his sarcasm.
THANK YOU!

And I'm skimming those other myths as well.

Hawkeye back? Hmm...i reckon he'll just be called Clint from now on, and won't be Hawkeye for a long time.
Why do you say that?

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 06:05 PM

No, he was making fun of you.
No... he was making fun of the guy who quoted Batman

This from the guy who quotes lines from a Batman move. Yes, originality and wit is clearly your area of expertise.
... but you didn't quote a Batman movie either... just mentioned a character... so maybe kalorama isn't making fun of anyone... :confused: but he sure seemed to be trying... ;)

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 06:06 PM

I hope Hawkeye tells the X-Men about Wanda and I hope Lorna finds out about HoM.
Which X-Men know about HoM? Everyone Layla Miller told remembers it right? Was Lorna in on any of those conversations?

Kryptons_Sun

08-04-2006, 06:07 PM

No... he was making fun of the guy who quoted Batman

... but you didn't quote a Batman movie either... just mentioned a character... so maybe kalorama isn't making fun of anyone... :confused: but he sure seemed to be trying... ;) I mentioned a character that you don't seem to know you made reference to.

motteditor

08-04-2006, 06:29 PM

"Although, not everyone's going to like it. I would love if everyone did. Motteditor - I'm telling you right now if you're reading this - you're not going to like it. I didn't write it to piss you off, but it just might happen that way. But you never know, and you might like it."

Thanks for the warning. : )

So issue #27 is all the mystery in finding out what's happened with Ronan during Civil War, and what's happened in Japan since we left that story.

Hasn't he been fighting the Annihilation wave? Or is that really Echo in a man suit too?

Leneil's first issue…the biggest question people have had about Ronin is how she's been shown as a guy, but is a hot girl - all of that will be answered. All of that was planned from the beginning.

Right. Because he was supposed to be Daredevil...

Bleh

08-04-2006, 06:31 PM

Which X-Men know about HoM? Everyone Layla Miller told remembers it right? Was Lorna in on any of those conversations?

Emma, Cyclops, Kitty and Wolverine remember.

avengingtitan

08-04-2006, 06:33 PM

Hasn't he been fighting the Annihilation wave? Or is that really Echo in a man suit too?
.
Ronan was in Annihilation. RONIN is the Mansuited Echo.

Ronan is a Kree judge, jury, executioner

Ronin is Echo a deaf, genius.

motteditor

08-04-2006, 06:37 PM

Motteditor,
OWENED!!!!!!

Owened? It that a reference to one of my best friend's son's name? Most people misspell it pwned. : )

Wow, Motteditor made the Marvel talking points for WizardWorld Chicago
First the Joe Fridays, now the Bendis interview ...

They love me at Marvel. Which is ironic, since they didn't even know my screen name when I was a happy little fanboy. Squeaky wheel and all that. They should bring me to the next Con, have me and Bendis get in a bow-and-arrow shooting match. Whoever's got the best aim lives to go to the next Con.

Ronan was in Annihilation. RONIN is the Mansuited Echo.
Ronan is a Kree judge, jury, executioner
Ronin is Echo a deaf, genius.

That was the point of my joke. Bendis wrote Ronan (on first reference). Went back to Ronin later on.

Memento Mori

08-04-2006, 06:41 PM

Just an fyi if you read further in the comments section of those Urban Legends... Someone did a find a link to a previous interview of Bendis with this quote: Originally, "Alias" was going to star Jessica Drew, but it became something else entirely. from http://http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=5711 .

So in the end it just depends on when you consider the idea actually became Alias... Anyway.. no winners or losers in that little argument.

Edit: Attribute the link to 'clevernamehere' from cbr

Radiate

08-04-2006, 07:01 PM

THANK YOU!

And I'm skimming those other myths as well.

Why do you say that?

Weeell, you know. Since we've already got a new Hawkeye in YA and that Clint doesn't seem to be appearing in anything else other than this planned NA issue, i think Clint's gonna retire for a while.

RADIATE!

JoeMaggio

08-04-2006, 07:27 PM

Here's my thoughts:

We haven't seen Wanda lately because she went into hiding for a while after the breast enhancement surgery. That way it won't seem so noticeable when her friends see her for the first time. I can see Frank Cho drawing the scene where Clint confronts Wanda for the first time and gets an eyeful of that rack... perfect spot for a classic Cho eye-bulging "Great googaly moogaly."

Maybe Hawkeye will go retro and start calling himself "White Goliath."

Why is it that everyone at Marvel feels they need to tell me how much I'm going to like Yu's new art style? I really liked what I saw when he first started with Marvel and I sure don't like what I'm seeing now. I guess they can't say "If you thought Yu's are was great before, you'll be tremendously disappointed with his new style." At least it's not more of that crap from Humberto Ramos.

AdamYJ

08-04-2006, 07:44 PM

Weeell, you know. Since we've already got a new Hawkeye in YA and that Clint doesn't seem to be appearing in anything else other than this planned NA issue, i think Clint's gonna retire for a while.

RADIATE!

Clint should mentor Kate. Kate's mother is dead and her father is more interested in his money than his family. The Avengers have accepted them, but we don't know if they'll actually train them. She could use a mentor in her life. You might think it's a strange role for ol' Brer Hawkeye, but if this guy can whip the Thunderbolts into shape he can handle one teenager.

I actually had this idea a while back for Kate being mentored by Clint without her knowing it was him. Clint would be kind of disguised (a beard, some different clothes, etc) and calling himself Trick Shot (after his old, rat-bastard of a mentor). They'd meet at this archery field and Clint would give her advice while they worked on her archery. Advice on all sorts of stuff, not just her archery. Stuff like: being a hero, dealing with the sad events of her past, living up to the name of one of her heroes, etc. I know you guys probably think it's a dumb idea, but it sounded cool in my head.

motteditor

08-04-2006, 07:58 PM

Could be a neat idea, Adam. Certainly better than some I've heard for the character. : )

The Shadow

08-04-2006, 08:10 PM

I mentioned a character that you don't seem to know you made reference to.
I have no idea who you guys are talking about!

I've only seen Batman Begins once and that was in the theatre.

RedRonin

08-04-2006, 08:16 PM

motteditor Vs. Bendis in a archery contest? It must be done.

Am I the only one who thinks the Thing joins the New Avengers?

JLAJRC

08-04-2006, 08:30 PM

Clint should mentor Kate. Kate's mother is dead and her father is more interested in his money than his family. The Avengers have accepted them, but we don't know if they'll actually train them. She could use a mentor in her life. You might think it's a strange role for ol' Brer Hawkeye, but if this guy can whip the Thunderbolts into shape he can handle one teenager.

I actually had this idea a while back for Kate being mentored by Clint without her knowing it was him. Clint would be kind of disguised (a beard, some different clothes, etc) and calling himself Trick Shot (after his old, rat-bastard of a mentor). They'd meet at this archery field and Clint would give her advice while they worked on her archery. Advice on all sorts of stuff, not just her archery. Stuff like: being a hero, dealing with the sad events of her past, living up to the name of one of her heroes, etc. I know you guys probably think it's a dumb idea, but it sounded cool in my head.

I like this idea. I wouldn't mind throwing Wanda in also to have a Clint/Wanda/Vision triangle. Add in their kids and it'd be a fun dysfunctional family.

Rhyo

08-04-2006, 08:41 PM

Even though I've dropped New Avengers and don't plan on reading Mighty Avengers, I'll read this issue, as these are two of my favorite characters.

In the interview, though, Bendis says: "All will be answered." - I am, among other things, a former English lit major and book editor. I read a ton of stuff of varying complexity and consider myself able to follow pretty much any plot. But I have NEVER read a Bendis issue where "all was explained."

AdamYJ

08-04-2006, 09:09 PM

Could be a neat idea, Adam. Certainly better than some I've heard for the character. : )

He likes it! Hey Mikey! (the Life cereal reference seemed appropriate).

I wanted to think of a way for Clint to have a presence without having him jump back into the saddle again and yanking the Hawkeye name away from Kate. I mean, we went through twelve issues before getting to call her Hawkeye. They built up to this over time. More than a year actually, considering lateness for Young Avengers. They didn't even do a quick switch like the Asgardian/Wiccan thing. We had to go through more than twelve months of asking "What the hell do we call her?" to each other. So, taking the name would be mean. That settled the idea that Kate=Hawkeye. So, Clint had to be someone else. Trick Shot seemed appropriate. From there, building him up as the mysterious mentor made sense. Kate's situation and Clint's history of trying to shape up super-teams (Great Lakes Avengers and Thunderbolts for example) lended themselves to it.

I might have to write this as a fanfiction. The idea is already out in the ether of the internet, might as well put words to page.

astronato

08-04-2006, 10:29 PM

Alex Maleev and Leneil Yu are great and I'm looking forward to the return of Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch. I can't wait.

I hope it's Doctor Strange on the Avengers.

Love that image of Scarlet Witch.

omacv4

08-04-2006, 10:29 PM

i think owned is misspelled.

i'm pretty new to these forums. who's motteditor? why does bendis think he won't be happy with the story?

lastly, hawkeye's back!!!!! yes. this ranks right up there with the new moon knight ongoing and iron fist's new series. i just hope bendis doesn't kill him. again. although, i don't think that he would after being killed and resurrected twice. then again. . .

there was another poster but i don't remember who said it, but, i like humberto's art.

Doombug

08-04-2006, 10:58 PM

Bendis you lying son of a....

You said you weren't touching on Hawkeyes return. You said someone else was writing it. I read the words in at least 5 different occasions. # of which were here. The other two in Wizard.

I get that you supposedly like the character. But you know what? The real fans of the character are tired of you being up on him. We want our fun loving/smart ass back.

We want the guy that wouldn't be dumb enough to get his quiver blown off.

Seriously, I actually trusted your word on this. You lied.

Congradulations. I'll give the first issue of Mighty Avengers a shot. But after issue 26 of New Avengers. Its officially off my pull list.

....so tired of all this crap. :mad:

motteditor

08-04-2006, 11:00 PM

i'm pretty new to these forums. who's motteditor? why does bendis think he won't be happy with the story?

Just some shmuck with a big mouth ... er, big typing fingers and too much free time on his hands.

I've been a bit ... critical, to say the least, about Bendis' handling of the Avengers to date.

Doombug

08-04-2006, 11:07 PM

Doombug

08-04-2006, 11:18 PM

Terram

08-04-2006, 11:22 PM

In other words. Hi, I've been told I can do whatever the hell I want with two of the most faithful Avengers team members of all time. I already screwed them up, so lets do it some more!

I can't wait.

Anyways, "We see how that costume got there, and we see what Hawekeye's been doing, and how he basically can't get on with his life until he confronts Wanda. So he's looking for her, and he finds her. So it's what they've been doing, and what the future has in store.", For a while, I had a whole fanfic burning in the back of my head on that veryquestion. I'm quite happy Bendis is going to answer the same question.

omacv4

08-04-2006, 11:23 PM

Just some shmuck with a big mouth ... er, big typing fingers and too much free time on his hands.

I've been a bit ... critical, to say the least, about Bendis' handling of the Avengers to date.

cool. thanks. i haven't been that happy with new avengers lately, and i really wasn't happy with hawkeye's death in disassembled. hopefully, bendis will finally do right by him in #26.

mrorangesoda

08-04-2006, 11:23 PM

Am I the only one who thinks the Thing joins the New Avengers?

Yes, the Thing will be busy in his relaunched ongoing "Thing in Paris" by Dan Slott after JMS's FF break-up arc ends.

Is anyone else changing their tune about New Avengers. I first picked it up in the shop and paged through one of the Spider-Woman arc issues, and it very much felt like "6 issue storyarc of talking" Bendis who I'm not a fan of. I picked up the issue last week where he had one issue to tell a story, and it had an actual story arc that didn't make me scream of feel cheated. It was good, very good. This is the Bendis I really enjoy reading. Last years USM annual- fantastic, I loved it. I then tried to pick up the regular series, but got bored of watching Silver Sable track Peter for three issues. I think that Bendis's writing shines through with length limitations, so all of these one shot New Avengers stories have me interested in the title for the first time.

ManifestFury

08-05-2006, 12:34 AM

Doombug

08-05-2006, 01:01 AM

I need something positive to say:

I really like that cover. :)

Doombug

08-05-2006, 01:03 AM

I can't wait.

Anyways, "We see how that costume got there, and we see what Hawekeye's been doing, and how he basically can't get on with his life until he confronts Wanda. So he's looking for her, and he finds her. So it's what they've been doing, and what the future has in store.", For a while, I had a whole fanfic burning in the back of my head on that veryquestion. I'm quite happy Bendis is going to answer the same question.
*Bites his tongue, which is now bleeding*

But, he's the reason Clint dissapeared in the first place!

Heh, I'm curious though, what was your fanfic? I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours first. :)

Terram

08-05-2006, 01:56 AM

*Bites his tongue, which is now bleeding*

But, he's the reason Clint dissapeared in the first place!

Heh, I'm curious though, what was your fanfic? I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours first. :)
Synopsis? Okay. It's a bit existentialist, but that's going to happen when your enemy is effectively God in a scarlet bodice.

Oh, mine was in short Clint, after being brought back in House of M, had some serious problems. Not so much coming to terms with being killed and brought back twice by a close friend, but rather the question of if he has free will now, or is he still bent to Wanda's will without him even knowing it? He can't live the rest of his life without knowing, so he drapes himself in a dull purple cloak (the 'subtle approach') and starts searching the foresty, slightly-magical land of Marvel Eastern Europe for Wanda. Just a 'hunch'. We're treated to

Stopping by in a poor village, bandits ride in on motorbikes and on jeeps, the self-proclaimed 'Sons of Slorenia'. Refugees turned bandits of that nearby nation that Ultron annihilated, wearing old Ultron-exoskeletons and wielding jury-rigged robotic weapons made from the thousands upon thousands of Ultron husks left behind after the Avengers were done. Hawkeye, of course, starts fighting them by himself. We're treated to a few flashbacks to the old old Avenger days when Hawkeye and the Maximoffs were still just training and getting to know each other. I like the quote "Well, you see back then, I was still used to carney girls."

And they aren't very pleased either once they recognize their adversary as a member of the group that spawned Ultron itself into being. The war between them escalates, until the Sons hear of an Avenger in a peaceful hamlet not too far away and go out armed for bear. Wrong Avenger. The majority of the whole clan don't manage to get 10 feet away before Wanda simply wills them from existence. Last page of the penultimate issue is Clint saying "Hello.".

Hawkeye goes and calmly has a seat while Wanda serves him dinner in a log cabin. He knows there's something odd about his reactions to all this, and unsure of what he's thinking are truly his thoughts. As they talk, it slowly dons on Clint that Wanda (stable, but still not all there) wanted him here, so she can attempt to make amends. To say she's sorry. And then the true horror sets in, that none of this dangerous trek to the middle of Nowhere, Wundagore Mountain was any of his decision whatsoever. And then he...

Well, I couldn't think of a good ending, y'see. Killing him wouldn't be an option, because she'd just bring him back. Killing her in cold-blood is simply impossible to do, and against Clint's character. Hawkeye somehow managing to get his free will back at this point just struck me as unbelievable. And the ending of him being mindwiped, or accepting slavery, is a bit too depressing for what I was going for.

And that's why I never really finished it.

samnoir

08-05-2006, 02:53 AM

I'm guessing the new Avengers will be Cap's team... Cage, Falcon, Hercules, Cloak and Dagger, plus Wolverine and how could they break Spidey from his new comedic pairing with Cage?

Mighty Avengers... Ms Marvel, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

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Doombug

08-05-2006, 03:05 AM

Synopsis? Okay. It's a bit existentialist, but that's going to happen when your enemy is effectively God in a scarlet bodice.

Oh, mine was in short Clint, after being brought back in House of M, had some serious problems. Not so much coming to terms with being killed and brought back twice by a close friend, but rather the question of if he has free will now, or is he still bent to Wanda's will without him even knowing it? He can't live the rest of his life without knowing, so he drapes himself in a dull purple cloak (the 'subtle approach') and starts searching the foresty, slightly-magical land of Marvel Eastern Europe for Wanda. Just a 'hunch'. We're treated to

Stopping by in a poor village, bandits ride in on motorbikes and on jeeps, the self-proclaimed 'Sons of Slorenia'. Refugees turned bandits of that nearby nation that Ultron annihilated, wearing old Ultron-exoskeletons and wielding jury-rigged robotic weapons made from the thousands upon thousands of Ultron husks left behind after the Avengers were done. Hawkeye, of course, starts fighting them by himself. We're treated to a few flashbacks to the old old Avenger days when Hawkeye and the Maximoffs were still just training and getting to know each other. I like the quote "Well, you see back then, I was still used to carney girls."

And they aren't very pleased either once they recognize their adversary as a member of the group that spawned Ultron itself into being. The war between them escalates, until the Sons hear of an Avenger in a peaceful hamlet not too far away and go out armed for bear. Wrong Avenger. The majority of the whole clan don't manage to get 10 feet away before Wanda simply wills them from existence. Last page of the penultimate issue is Clint saying "Hello.".

Hawkeye goes and calmly has a seat while Wanda serves him dinner in a log cabin. He knows there's something odd about his reactions to all this, and unsure of what he's thinking are truly his thoughts. As they talk, it slowly dons on Clint that Wanda (stable, but still not all there) wanted him here, so she can attempt to make amends. To say she's sorry. And then the true horror sets in, that none of this dangerous trek to the middle of Nowhere, Wundagore Mountain was any of his decision whatsoever. And then he...

Well, I couldn't think of a good ending, y'see. Killing him wouldn't be an option, because she'd just bring him back. Killing her in cold-blood is simply impossible to do, and against Clint's character. Hawkeye somehow managing to get his free will back at this point just struck me as unbelievable. And the ending of him being mindwiped, or accepting slavery, is a bit too depressing for what I was going for.

And that's why I never really finished it.

Ok, I officially loved you. Mine was more of a retcon. It involved Clint being able to get his Quiver off in mid air and landing in a kree hangar bay. obvioulsy causing him to have to escape from that ship.

But he does so and gets back to Earth, Wanda creating a construct of him during House of M. He returns to earth and has been training in a small cabin, waiting for the proper moment to return.

Meh, yours was more fleshed out. :)

beta-ray

08-05-2006, 06:31 AM

Better than Perez's?

I know people will probably hate me for this... but I never really cared for Perez's Witch. It was competent no doubt, but never woeed me.

*shrug*

beta-ray

08-05-2006, 06:33 AM

BruceWayneJr

08-05-2006, 06:34 AM

motteditor, I envy the fact that you're directly recognized for your criticism. Keep it up; at least they're listening to you.

As for Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch, who gives a ____? Let me know when a new writer gets ahold of 'em.

SuperginraiX

08-05-2006, 06:38 AM

I'm guessing the new Avengers will be Cap's team... Cage, Falcon, Hercules, Cloak and Dagger, plus Wolverine and how could they break Spidey from his new comedic pairing with Cage?

Mighty Avengers... Ms Marvel, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

I think you're right, New Avengers is Cap's team. Cage is sure fire, but if it's out of the country, then I don't think Spidey will be on it.

Thing, however... ;)

Oh, and as far as Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch go, at least one of them isn't getting out alive. I like Clint, but... well we'll see. :(

Love New Avengers. Disassembled was rocky, but I enjoyed it as well. Maybe I'm easy to please.

OcCaM

08-05-2006, 09:28 AM

Just some shmuck with a big mouth ... er, big typing fingers and too much free time on his hands.

I've been a bit ... critical, to say the least, about Bendis' handling of the Avengers to date.

Which a lot of us agree with!

Clearly despite some people's misconceptions, if ANYONE has been owned it's Bendis and the other boys at Marvel who even feel the need to address one little nobody of a fanboy's complaints so publically. Not particularly professional and seems more of the same immature stuff I expect from Bendis and Quesada.

Clearly, Bendis' ego can't handle a little opposition to his writing.

Far as I'm concerned,

Bendis is...

OWNED!

Great job Mott! Keep it up!

(Shame though that Bendis is such a hack writer, he has nice ideas, they are just badly written with poor execution and horrible dialogue and such terrible mis-characterizations. I always see stuff in his writing that COULD be good, but always disappoint. Maybe someone else could do the writing and he could just provide ideas? I mean in that one NEw Avengers arc he has Matt Murdock, a lawyer no less, talking like a complete idiot. He obviously has NO clue how a lawyer would talk.)

Oh and I wanted Hawkeye's return, but, NOT LIKE THIS, NOT LIKE THIS!!!! :D

ManifestFury

08-05-2006, 10:48 AM

In terms of story, the thing that I always thought should happen was simple...

Scarlet witch should bring back Hawkeye AND Mockingbird...

I thought that she should have realized her horrific errors with Hawkeye, and decided to make up to him the only way she could... bring someone he loved more than life back with him... also, she was more than indirectly involved with Mock's death... Mock got nailed in the back Mephisto's fireball to save Witchie...

And imagine Hawkeye's opinion on Witchie? Well, she killed me TWICE but she brought me back twice and gave me Mock... what do I do now?

See, THAT would be a good reason for him to hang up the suit and quiver... to start a family live Mock had wanted...

And IMAGINE what Kate Bishop would say when Hawk & Mock BOTH showed up and asked for their stuff back... that would be AMAZING...

-MF

motteditor

08-05-2006, 11:45 AM

I know people will probably hate me for this... but I never really cared for Perez's Witch. It was competent no doubt, but never woeed me.

I think everything Perez does is more than competent, but in some ways I agree with you. Her face was always a bit too long for me under Perez, and while I liked the Romani-theme, it also did seem to jar a bit with what we'd seen before. Truthfully, I think my favorite look was during the Crossing. The story sucked, but I absolutely loved those costume revamps, especially Wanda and Pietro's. Hawkeye's wasn't bad either.

Clearly despite some people's misconceptions, if ANYONE has been owned it's Bendis and the other boys at Marvel who even feel the need to address one little nobody of a fanboy's complaints so publically. Not particularly professional and seems more of the same immature stuff I expect from Bendis and Quesada.

I didn't think it was at all unprofessional. He's having fun, and it made me smile. Plus, he knows there are critics (and while he used my "name," he clearly knows there are other people who agree with me) and I think it's OK to recognize that not everyone likes what he's doing. It's probably better, actually, than thinking it's perfect.

What amuses me more is that Bendis can handle it so well while other posters here can't. I've lost track of how many people I ended up putting on my ignore list because they have to attack me for my criticisms of the book (even though discussing comics is why we're on this board).

h and I wanted Hawkeye's return, but, NOT LIKE THIS, NOT LIKE THIS!!!!

Dammit, how did I miss this line?

MF, that's a story I like. I still think the better story is Hawkeye didn't die once. The first blast -- with magic AND teleporters -- just sent him somewhere. The second one wasn't really ever Hawkeye to start with. In fact, this just doesn't make any sense to me. Wanda has the ability to create and destroy life at will? If so, why wouldn't she just bring everyone back -- Captain Marvel, her mother, little Anya, Banshee, etc. etc. What's to keep some future writer from just saying Hawkeye's been a figment of her imagination since the start? Like I said, having him really die (twice) does absolutely nothing but hurt the character.

ManifestFury

08-05-2006, 11:51 AM

MF, that's a story I like. I still think the better story is Hawkeye didn't die once. The first blast -- with magic AND teleporters -- just sent him somewhere. The second one wasn't really ever Hawkeye to start with. In fact, this just doesn't make any sense to me. Wanda has the ability to create and destroy life at will? If so, why wouldn't she just bring everyone back -- Captain Marvel, her mother, little Anya, Banshee, etc. etc. What's to keep some future writer from just saying Hawkeye's been a figment of her imagination since the start? Like I said, having him really die (twice) does absolutely nothing but hurt the character.

Glad you like my idea. I agree with you that he being teleported is a better idea. I hung my hat on that one for awhile, hoping that Wanda was just doing it for effect and not because she was a murdeous psycho...

BUT... Bendis seems to want to go with Wanda being crazy and Hawkeye being pissed at dying twice...

If he's gonna do that, the LEAST he could do is something different and use it as a a way to move Hawkeye into a somewhat positive position in his life. Mockingbird returning would do just that!

MF

JoeMaggio

08-05-2006, 01:02 PM

I know people will probably hate me for this... but I never really cared for Perez's Witch. It was competent no doubt, but never woeed me.

I'm a big Perez fan, but I never liked his "gypsy" Scarlet Witch from the 1990's. I do think his late 70's rendition was some of the best Avengers art ever, including the Scarlet Witch.

Metalmachine

08-05-2006, 02:32 PM

avengingtitan

08-05-2006, 02:44 PM

Orlando

08-05-2006, 03:09 PM

Just one thing to say...Bendis sucks!!!! One of the posters earlier called him a hack writer... and i couldn't agree with it more.

The guy turned the once Mighty Avengers into another "X-book".

Jeez, have some originality, will you?

I just don't get how people actually read this guy's stuff!

I'll be honest: although I absolutely agree that everyone's entitled to their opinion, and that's what makes some forums so nice to hang around, stuff like this is absolutely ridiculous. He just goes and attacks the guy.

Oh, and I'm really happy Motteditor took it as just a guy having fun, and being honest. Good for you. Now that's a guy who knows how to be fair, even though I don't agree with what he says about Bendis titles (from what I've seen).

Now, although I enjoy NA, I don't think Bendis is really putting his best effort here. It's been really unfocused stuff so far. Disassembled is making me change my opinion, and the stuff that's coming up sounds sweet too. Especially this issue. I love Alex Maleev

Jon Yeager

08-05-2006, 03:34 PM

Thanks for the warning. : )
Right. Because he was supposed to be Daredevil...

I can't believe Marvel is continuing to deny this fact. It's so embarrassing for them to continue to insinuate that they wanted it to be Echo all along.

When Daredevil was revealed as Iron First, the writer (is it Bru?) went out of his way to say that THIS TIME, they really did plan for it to be IF from beginning to end, unlike those times when writers do a bait n' switch halfway through when half the world can see who they have served up coming from miles away. He added that fans always feel cheated when that happens, and honestly, I really felt like he was talking very specifically about Ronin, and the gigantic embarrassment that switch continues to be to this day.

Marvel are very, very stubborn people. Like when people cried fowl over Clint's death in the wake of the new Thunderbolts book that suffered without him. Rather than admit they might have picked the wrong guy to kill, Marvel brings him back only to kill him again in the same issue. Take THAT, internet geeks!

Ditto the Ronin reveal. "Oh, you knew it was Murdock, eh? Well not only will it NOT turn out to be Murdock, but we're going to shove this ridiculous ability-limiting man-suit idea so far down your throats, you'll regret predicting ANYTHING!"

"No one will predict anything ever again! Let this be a lesson to you!"

Jon

PowerBum

08-05-2006, 09:37 PM

Oh and I wanted Hawkeye's return, but, NOT LIKE THIS, NOT LIKE THIS!!!! Ha! And also, I completely agree.

I think the biggest issue with Marvel today is that they're only hearing half of what their fans are telling them.

Yes, we were upset that Hawkeye died, but we were even more upset at HOW he died and the way he's been handled since that death (by Bendis, in particular). So they'll bring him back, but in the hands of the same writer that handled his death, shall we say, questionably.

Yes, we want another Avengers book, because many of us don't care for the way New Avengers is written. So they give us that book, but not really THAT BOOK because it's written by the same author of NA who's not exactly known for his range.

I like Bendis. I liked Powers, Sam & Twitch, and USM. But why give him complete control over a franchise whose fans have been completely polarized by his writing?

Desides

08-06-2006, 01:10 AM

But why give him complete control over a franchise whose fans have been completely polarized by his writing?

Because the only people who have been polarized are those who are nostalgic for the old '70s and '80s Avengers.

Take one look at the sales charts and you'll see New Avengers up there near the top. You don't consistently make it into the top 5 or 6 monthly comic book sales if your product polarizes a large amount of people.

Leave it to the internet to artificially inflate minority criticism...

Evan Waters

08-06-2006, 01:30 AM

Because the only people who have been polarized are those who are nostalgic for the old '70s and '80s Avengers.

Take one look at the sales charts and you'll see New Avengers up there near the top. You don't consistently make it into the top 5 or 6 monthly comic book sales if your product polarizes a large amount of people.

I have one thing to say to that: ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN.

Desides

08-06-2006, 12:01 PM

I have one thing to say to that: ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN.

What about it? It's another case of the internet not liking it and the general comic-buying public enjoying it.

Terram

08-06-2006, 06:57 PM

Ditto the Ronin reveal. "Oh, you knew it was Murdock, eh? Well not only will it NOT turn out to be Murdock, but we're going to shove this ridiculous ability-limiting man-suit idea so far down your throats, you'll regret predicting ANYTHING!" No, Ronin was intended to be Iron Fist. Look at his costume man, it's just a revamp.

Xomrub

08-06-2006, 07:17 PM

New artwork by ALex is fine, but judging from the cover....Why on earth is everyone copying Bill Sienkiewicz? Wanda in a Gustav Klimt style is exactly what Bill would have done. Maleev is copying Bill, David Mack is a cheap copy of Bill, Quesada does it sometimes, heck, even Dave Mc Kean does it.

Just get the real one, or find your own style, Maleev.

Terram

08-06-2006, 07:59 PM

Somehow I doubt Sienkiewicz invented the "Gustav Klint" style.

khuxford

08-06-2006, 08:58 PM

No, Ronin was intended to be Iron Fist. Look at his costume man, it's just a revamp.

Ummm...if Ronin's costume was just an Iron Fist revamp, that kind of screams that they wanted you to THINK it was Iron Fist. Not much mystery to it if they give you a big ol' honking clue like that, no? :p

Terram

08-06-2006, 09:00 PM

Ummm...if Ronin's costume was just an Iron Fist revamp, that kind of screams that they wanted you to THINK it was Iron Fist. Not much mystery to it if they give you a big ol' honking clue like that, no? :p Yet everyone thought it was Daredevil, and some raise a stink that it wasn't Daredevil because apparently all the evidence pointed to him.

ME5

08-06-2006, 09:25 PM

Hello.

To Jon Yeager: One bit of evidence, not speculation, innuendo, hints, or insinuation. I simply ask you to provide one piece of evidence, actual proof, that shows Marvel lied about Ronin being DD as opposed to Echo. What's that? Have none? I thought so. So, unless you cann prove what you keep saying, stop lying about Marvel's reveal and making false accusations about who was supposed to be Ronin. Unless you have some actual proof to the contrary.

By the way, I hate Echo as Ronin. I wish it had been Taskmaster.

Be Well...:)

khuxford

08-06-2006, 10:23 PM

Yet everyone thought it was Daredevil, and some raise a stink that it wasn't Daredevil because apparently all the evidence pointed to him.

Sorry...but no where near everyone thought it was Daredevil. Especially since Daredevil telling them he had someone in mind would be pretty convoluted. :p

The Shadow

08-06-2006, 10:37 PM

And the dumbest post in this thread goes to... Metalmachine!

Just one thing to say...Bendis sucks!!!! One of the posters earlier called him a hack writer... and i couldn't agree with it more.
Based on what? Who's he comparable to? Don't hack writers usually have no resume to speak of? Yet Bendis has Powers, Ultimate Spider-Man, (the awesome) Alias, Jinx, (the best) Daredevil (run since Miller)... those aren't written by some hack. Just because YOU dislike what he's done with the Avengers (he just turned it into Marvel's best selling monthly is all... not bad for a hack) doesn't mean he sucks.

The guy turned the once Mighty Avengers into another "X-book".
Really? How long have you been reading comics? And compare some story lines the "hack" copied in his turning NA into an X book.

Jeez, have some originality, will you?
:rolleyes: Well, his roster features only two Avengers... everyone else is a first timer. That's new unto itself.

I just don't get how people actually read this guy's stuff!
Do you read it? If you don't how do you know it's bad???

TF_Loki

08-07-2006, 03:38 AM

I can't believe Marvel is continuing to deny this fact. It's so embarrassing for them to continue to insinuate that they wanted it to be Echo all along.

Ditto the Ronin reveal. "Oh, you knew it was Murdock, eh? Well not only will it NOT turn out to be Murdock, but we're going to shove this ridiculous ability-limiting man-suit idea so far down your throats, you'll regret predicting ANYTHING!"

Regardless of whether or not it was supposed to be anyone else, Ronin IS echo now. So they might as well do something with the character after pushing it for so long.

When Daredevil was revealed as Iron First, the writer (is it Bru?) went out of his way to say that THIS TIME, they really did plan for it to be IF from beginning to end, unlike those times when writers do a bait n' switch halfway through when half the world can see who they have served up coming from miles away. He added that fans always feel cheated when that happens, and honestly, I really felt like he was talking very specifically about Ronin, and the gigantic embarrassment that switch continues to be to this day.

Bru could be lying. It could have been bait n' switch there too after all that CW : DC nonsense.

paulski

08-07-2006, 07:03 AM

This sure has been one car wreck of a thread, huh? I should turn away, but I just can't help looking! :p

And if nothing else, it's finally convinced me to put another joker on my Ignore list. I figure I've given him more than enough chances but he still comes up with the same old crap.

And Mott, I'm obviously NOT talking about you - you know me better than that. ;)

Terram

08-07-2006, 07:11 AM

Wanda has the ability to create and destroy life at will? If so, why wouldn't she just bring everyone back -- Captain Marvel, her mother, little Anya, Banshee, etc. etc. She did that already, it was in a cool mini you'll no doubt love called House of M, and before that when she had imaginary twins. Problems sadly arose as a result of both those things. Keep in mind though that she never met her mother or Anya.

What's to keep some future writer from just saying Hawkeye's been a figment of her imagination since the start? Like I said, having him really die (twice) does absolutely nothing but hurt the character. I'd say Flex Mentallo didn't hurt for a similar revelation.

kitty_tc

08-07-2006, 07:57 AM

Really, the anti-Bendis whining is getting a bit old. Much of it has a very shrill, against for the sake of being against feel to it. I see many of the same talking points repeated over and over with no variation and no examples or evidence to back them up, as if some people are merely repeating things they've heard in order to fit in with a certain "cool" clique. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've seen that dynamic on a discussion board.

Honestly, can someone please explain to me the appeal of Hawkeye? I've been a dedicated Marvel fan since the mid-80's and I can't recall ever talking to anyone who actually liked him before. He's always been on my "must cut" list for the Avengers, and I was pleased with Bendis for getting rid of him.

Seriously, I'm expected to believe that a team with a Norse God, an ultra robot armor guy, a female Hulk, and a living legend from WWII / symbol of America had a special niche for a guy who's only ability is to shoot arrows with boxing gloves on the ends of them? C'mon. It's like trying to believe that a guy who talks to fish belongs on a team with Superman.

You might as well whine for the return of Dr. Druid.

And Wanda... where to start with her? This is a woman who not only had sex with a robot, she MARRIED him and proceeded to HAVE his BABIES. Who then turned out to be FIGMENTS of her IMAGINATION combined with chunks of a DEMON from HELL. Think about that one for a while and come back to me when your brain stops bleeding.

And remember, that was long, long before Bendis ever got a hold of her. How can he "ruin" what was already an amazingly stupid mess? What would you do as a writer if you were handed a character with that backstory? I'm amazed that Bendis even found a way to work with it at all, let alone get it to make anything resembling sense.

I'm not saying I agree with everything Bendis has ever done, or even that he's done a majority of things the way I would do them. But I do find his stories enjoyable, by and large, and find enough in them that I like to outweigh what I don't. I'm one person, and I don't expect someone else's vision to conform exactly to mine. I'm not writing the book, they are, and I'll judge their work on it's own merits rather than holding it up against my own ideas to see if they match. I'm not egocentric enough for that approach.

And I also know that if I were writing the book, I'd stay true to my vision for it and tell the stories I want to tell. I'd accept constructive criticism and gladly implement suggestions I felt were good, but in the end I'd still put forth my ideas, my way, and hope people like them as much as I do. Really, what else can you do? Writing by focus group is like politics by polls, it's soulless, directioness, inconsistent and incoherent. Give me an actual vision any day.

AdamYJ

08-07-2006, 09:28 AM

The Shadow

08-07-2006, 04:07 PM

Also, we Avengers fans kind of isolate what happened to Scarlet Witch as the work of Byrne and try to ignore and get past it.
Ummm ... what Avengers fans and since when?

Sure Byrne has his moments... but his West Coast run is among the best on the title and even in the entire run of the Avengers.

Sure the guy has issues with his mouth... but overall his comic stuff is fantastic.

AdamYJ

08-07-2006, 06:24 PM

Ummm ... what Avengers fans and since when?

Sure Byrne has his moments... but his West Coast run is among the best on the title and even in the entire run of the Avengers.

Sure the guy has issues with his mouth... but overall his comic stuff is fantastic.

Okay, maybe I'm a bit off in saying "Avengers fans" in general, but until now no one has disagreed with me that the Scarlet Witch was not ruined.

Anyway, Byrne has a tendency of making characters go back to the way he thinks they should be, rather than going in the direction they were headed. He didn't like the idea of Scarlet Witch and Vision being married, so he decided to "fix" it. He rendered the kids nonexistent and had Vision reconstructed with no emotions in order to split them up. At least, that's what I heard.

Desides

08-07-2006, 06:51 PM

kitty_tc, that is perhaps the best post I have ever read on these forums, and I'm saddened as hell to say it.

Amoebas

08-07-2006, 07:03 PM

Okay, maybe I'm a bit off in saying "Avengers fans" in general, but until now no one has disagreed with me that the Scarlet Witch was not ruined.

Anyway, Byrne has a tendency of making characters go back to the way he thinks they should be, rather than going in the direction they were headed. He didn't like the idea of Scarlet Witch and Vision being married, so he decided to "fix" it. He rendered the kids nonexistent and had Vision reconstructed with no emotions in order to split them up. At least, that's what I heard.If Byrne does anything he tries to take the character back to (not what he thinks) but to where he thinks the characters creator had them.

And I completely disagree that Wanda was ruined prior to Bendis.

Yeah - she had a weird history, but no weirder than most any super-hero (Spidey indirectly caused his Uncle's death, he watched his best friends dad kill his girlfriend, he thought he was a clone, he's seen his Aunt die a couple times over, he gets his eyeball eaten and dies, his kid is more missing than Wanda's, etc etc etc).

She's had her problems and she worked to get over them (just like all the other heroes). In one of last 'real' appearances she, at great cost to herself, stopped the Red Skull's plague all by herself. That's the act of a "heroic" character in my book - not a "ruined" one.

kitty_tc

08-07-2006, 07:19 PM

Ok, I can see the attitude thing for Hawkeye. Personally I always found him annoying, but I can see how others might find it appealing instead.

However, I still can't buy that it's enough to qualify him for the greatest team on Earth. It strikes me as a workable concept for a street level hero like Daredevil who faces primarily armed but normal criminals and takes them down in his brash and cocky style despite the danger from their bullets (which -can- kill him and thus give credible narrative danger). In fact in that context I might even read and enjoy the character, given the right creative team.

But I just can't see him standing next to the likes of Thor, Iron Man, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel, and Captain America without thinking of that old Sesame Street song "one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong...". And yeah, I know, I just got that stuck in your head. You're welcome.:D

Thing is, I've been gamemastering the Marvel Super Heroes RPG for 20 years now, so I think in those terms, not merely who is "cool" but also who is usable and useful in a story on a strategic and tactical level. And I know that if I hand out character sheets for an Avengers adventure, the guy who gets stuck with Hawkeye is gonna be p!ssed. Why wouldn't he be? What can he really do that the others can't do a hundred times better? How can he keep the others from stealing his thunder at every turn, and how can I give him something unique and special to do so he's not just standing there looking and feeling as useless as he truly is? And if I can think of something -this- time that doesn't come across as too contrived and artificial, what do I do the next time, and the time after that?

If you can think of something, you're a better storyteller than I am, because I couldn't find a way to make it work. I found it easier and vastly more effective to save the low-power guys for challenges that are scaled better to them. I also tend to construct teams based on power roles and what they can bring to the table. Feral, brick, blaster, speedster, ninja, etc, all have things they can bring to the board that they can do better than the others, and even if they're not the most powerful they still have their specialties that give them something useful to do in a wide variety of situations. Hawkeye, on the other hand, just doesn't have anything worth contributing on a team on the Avengers' scale. I'm sorry, he just doesn't.

To take another example, imagine the Punisher on the Avengers, just for a minute. Nobody can credibly argue that ol' Frank is not cool as all hell, and a very worthy character. But what could he do next to Iron Man and Ms Marvel? There's nothing that he can shoot and blow up that they can't shoot and blow up faster and bigger. There'd be nothing for him to do and no reason for the readers to believe he belongs there. And to keep him there beyond all suspension of disbelief is an insult to the readers -and- the character.

One more thing... cooler than Thor? THOR? I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that. Have you been reading a really pathetic writing job on him or something? You obviously have a very different conception of the character than I do. Then again, I'm a Norse mythology buff, to a degree at least, and I also had the good fortune to get into the character in the mid-80's when he was really being written well, and that conception of the character has stuck with me ever since.

Honestly, you know what Thor is at his core? He's Conan with the power of a god.

If it gets any cooler than that, someone let me know. But I'm not counting on it.

Amoebas

08-07-2006, 07:40 PM

To take another example, imagine the Punisher on the Avengers, just for a minute. Nobody can credibly argue that ol' Frank is not cool as all hell, and a very worthy character. .
"Worthy"? He's a seriel killer.

One more thing... cooler than Thor? THOR? I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that. Have you been reading a really pathetic writing job on him or something? You obviously have a very different conception of the character than I do. Then again, I'm a Norse mythology buff, to a degree at least, and I also had the good fortune to get into the character in the mid-80's when he was really being written well, and that conception of the character has stuck with me ever since.

If it gets any cooler than that, someone let me know. But I'm not counting on it.
Hawkeye is cooler than Thor tho. Sure he's not as powerful, but since when does being powerful make you cool? Myself I'd rather see a lesser hero struggle to excel than an all powerful god swoop in and end the fight in 5 seconds.

Bre'r Hawkeye for me!

AdamYJ

08-07-2006, 07:59 PM

Ok, I can see the attitude thing for Hawkeye. Personally I always found him annoying, but I can see how others might find it appealing instead.

I understand. I find Green Arrow annoying, yet for some reason I like Hawkeye a lot. They're both brash bowmen, but Clint just comes across as a lot more likeable. You never can tell with these things.

Anyway, comics are not like the RPGs. The one thing Clint always added best was the personality component. His early clashes with Captain America are well-remembered for adding conflict to the "Cap's Kooky Quartet" era. Also, Hawkeye also has a sense of being the underdog to him. It's fun to watch a guy with pretty much no powers charge into a battle that's challenging the likes of Iron Man and still manage to pull out a victory.

One more thing... cooler than Thor? THOR? I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that. Have you been reading a really pathetic writing job on him or something? You obviously have a very different conception of the character than I do. Then again, I'm a Norse mythology buff, to a degree at least, and I also had the good fortune to get into the character in the mid-80's when he was really being written well, and that conception of the character has stuck with me ever since.

Honestly, you know what Thor is at his core? He's Conan with the power of a god.

If it gets any cooler than that, someone let me know. But I'm not counting on it.

It's the "power of a god" part that I don't like. Or rather, the part about him being a god himself.

You see, when I think of mythology and heroes, I don't think of the gods themselves. I think of mortals, who may or may not have a semi-divine power, struggling against the power of an unjust and vengeful god or against monsters or other evil men. You see, I prefer the "Greek" model. Like Odysseus sailing for home at risk of the angry Poseidon. Like Hercules using his gods given strength to fight monsters sent by Hera. Or how about Sigurd of the Volsungs from Norse mythology. Or maybe Ireland's Cu Chullain or Finn mac Cumhail. Now, I'm not saying that Thor's not a decent guy or anything. But, once your hero is a god, what do you do with him? I prefer Hercules, who is generally still thought of as half-mortal and is also less stiff and high-and-mighty than Thor.

It's just my opinion I know, but I couldn't even get into Simonson's Thor stories.

kitty_tc

08-07-2006, 08:04 PM

"Worthy"? He's a seriel killer.

Hawkeye is cooler than Thor tho. Sure he's not as powerful, but since when does being powerful make you cool? Myself I'd rather see a lesser hero struggle to excel than an all powerful god swoop in and end the fight in 5 seconds.

Bre'r Hawkeye for me!

Punisher a serial killer? Sure, but by that logic so are cops and soldiers. You're not impugning the heroism of our police and military, are you? Say it ain't so.

And you skipped the kicker line from my post, "Conan with the power of a god". Or what, are you going to try to sell me that Conan isn't cool? Sorry, not buying.

And you're just not getting the scale thing, it seems. Thor could not and should not "end the fight in 5 seconds" if they're fighting an an enemy of the power level they often do, like Thanos or Ultron or any of the other threats that menace the entire planet.

And yes, that is accurate, they -are- a world team and they -do- face threats against the entire planet. That's what they do. It takes a lot of power to threaten the entire globe, and a lot of power to defend it. Hawkeye just isn't in that league. What's he going to do to Thanos, or Ultron, or even a rampaging savage Hulk? What's he going to do that Iron Man can't do better, faster, and bigger? What can a trick arrow do that a repulsor blast cannot?

There's a difference between being an underdog and being completely and totally out of your depth. On the global scale the Avengers play on, Hawkeye's A game is still minor league material.

AdamYJ

08-07-2006, 08:21 PM

Punisher a serial killer? Sure, but by that logic so are cops and soldiers. You're not impugning the heroism of our police and military, are you? Say it ain't so.

Last I checked, most police officers rarely use their guns over the course of their careers. Punisher goes around shooting criminals because he thinks they deserve to die. He doesn't act to keep the peace, he just kills. As for the military, that's another issue I'd rather not go into.

There's a difference between being an underdog and being completely and totally out of your depth. On the global scale the Avengers play on, Hawkeye's A game is still minor league material.

Eh, you don't know what you're talking about. Hawkeye's proved he can stand among Earth's Mightiest through sheer courage and cleverness. He's shown it time and again. There's nothing that can convince me that Hawkeye is not as worthy an Avenger as any "big gun".

Amoebas

08-07-2006, 08:52 PM

What's he going to do to Thanos, or Ultron, or even a rampaging savage Hulk? What's he going to do that Iron Man can't do better, faster, and bigger? What can a trick arrow do that a repulsor blast cannot?

There's a difference between being an underdog and being completely and totally out of your depth. On the global scale the Avengers play on, Hawkeye's A game is still minor league material.
Hawkeye dealt the decisive winning blow against Ultron once.
Hawkeye took on a rampaging She-Hulk (not Hulk level but still pretty impressive)
Hawkeye single handedly defeated the Grandmaster.

Not bad for a minor leaguer.

motteditor

08-07-2006, 09:01 PM

Honestly, can someone please explain to me the appeal of Hawkeye? I've been a dedicated Marvel fan since the mid-80's and I can't recall ever talking to anyone who actually liked him before. He's always been on my "must cut" list for the Avengers, and I was pleased with Bendis for getting rid of him.

And Wanda... where to start with her? This is a woman who not only had sex with a robot, she MARRIED him and proceeded to HAVE his BABIES. Who then turned out to be FIGMENTS of her IMAGINATION combined with chunks of a DEMON from HELL. Think about that one for a while and come back to me when your brain stops bleeding.

And remember, that was long, long before Bendis ever got a hold of her. How can he "ruin" what was already an amazingly stupid mess? What would you do as a writer if you were handed a character with that backstory? I'm amazed that Bendis even found a way to work with it at all, let alone get it to make anything resembling sense.

The problem is you're coming at these characters from Bendis' point of view. Let's say you were a comics writer. If you didn't like them, you probably shouldn't sign up to write the Avengers. Instead focus on characters you do like -- to continue this example and based on your later posts, it would probably make sense for you to go for a Thor solo title.

But to get down to specifics -- Hawkeye is in many ways the heart and soul of the Avengers, right there with Captain America. It's his brashness, his belief that despite not having a single super power that he may be all that stands between the earth and destruction, that defines the team. This is a group that never gave up (before Bendis, of course) and just kept fighting. You say he can't stand up to the big guys, tell that to the Collector. (And for what it's worth, he had far more arrows than boxing gloves; he had tons of tricks up his sleeve.)

As far as your gaming analogy, it again depends where you're coming from. If you're a power gamer, of course you're going to want Thor or Iron Man. If you're a role-player, though, you'd be crazy not to want to play with Hawkeye. The man is personality. I'd pick him any day of the week over any of the Big Three and twice on Sundays.

As for Wanda, you're again missing the point. It's Bendis' contention that she had sex with a toaster (as expressed by Spider-Man). If you read the story, the entire point was that Vision was more than the sum of his parts (much like the Avengers), and that under his robotic (synthezoid) exterior, there really was a man. The children were part of that magic, that their love was so strong that it overcame their mortal limitations. And again, to me, if a writer can't understand that -- and really think Vision is nothing more than an animated dildo -- he/she shouldn't be writing the Avengers. That's not meant to be a put-down, but rather that they're not simpatico with the title and should try their hand at a different book.

As far as Byrne, I completely disagree that he ruined Wanda. He put her through the ringer -- effectively killing her husband (and sort of reanimating him as a zombie) and children -- and wrote her having a mental breakdown. When he didn't finish his story, the following writer (Roy Thomas) added to that by having her being manipulated by Immortus and eventually realizing that and helping the Avengers save the day and her.

She didn't cold-bloodedly turn on them and hatch a plot to murder as many as she could. There was nothing in what Byrne wrote that wasn't resolved without her continuing on as a hero. Bendis on the other hand wrote a story that will likely be retconned to having her be controlled, but which leaves her a weaker character in the end, and one that can never be looked at as a real heroine and a cornerstone of the Avengers again. Much like what Shooter did to Hank Pym still tarnishes the character in many minds today, Wanda will never be able to move past what happened in Dismembered. Just like far too many writers get Hank Pym and think they need to rehash his relationship with Jan, every future writer on the Avengers after they force Wanda back to being "good" is going to have her have a mental breakdown and be the crazy, untrustworthy Avenger. And, all the other Avengers have to be shown to be stupid to have those stories work, because there's no way in hell a single one of them should ever be willing to work closely with her again, because you don't know if one random wrong phrase could trigger a memory she's known about forever and cause her to go all homicidal again.

Punisher a serial killer? Sure, but by that logic so are cops and soldiers.

No. Punisher doesn't arrest criminals and bring them in for a trial. He just kills them. That's not what cops do. And soldiers are a completely different thing. No way Punisher should be an Avenger, though honestly there's no reason he couldn't be anymore. There's no rule against killing, so why not invite him on?

motteditor

08-07-2006, 09:12 PM

Hawkeye took on a rampaging She-Hulk (not Hulk level but still pretty impressive)

Hawkeye also got her back into being She-Hulk when she was seemingly stuck in her Jen Walters form, simply through his "powers" of being incredibly aggravating. That was more than Tony was able to do with all his science or Thor with his divinity.

vanhelsin

08-07-2006, 11:11 PM

Hawkeye also got her back into being She-Hulk when she was seemingly stuck in her Jen Walters form, simply through his "powers" of being incredibly aggravating. That was more than Tony was able to do with all his science or Thor with his divinity.

All Hawkeye did was piss Jen off when Radioactive Man goofed with her gamma levels when she fought Egghead's Masters of Evil. That's not an achievement for Hawkeye, since he ticked off Cap and who knows else on how many occasions. As for Jen, that was the first time she had been in her human form since choosing to remain the She-Hulk at the end of Savage She-Hulk #25. I'd imagine it was like having ice cold water poured over you, the shock of being a mere mortal once again.

motteditor

08-08-2006, 01:38 AM

All Hawkeye did was piss Jen off when Radioactive Man goofed with her gamma levels when she fought Egghead's Masters of Evil. That's not an achievement for Hawkeye, since he ticked off Cap and who knows else on how many occasions. As for Jen, that was the first time she had been in her human form since choosing to remain the She-Hulk at the end of Savage She-Hulk #25. I'd imagine it was like having ice cold water poured over you, the shock of being a mere mortal once again.

Right. And it was Hawkeye who came up with the way of getting her to change back (he was getting under her skin for a very specific reason, after all). You really think Cap or Tony would have thought of something that simplistic to get one of the Avengers back into action -- or even could be enough of a jerk to manage it, for that matter.

That's part of Hawkeye's appeal. He finds ways to get things done.

kitty_tc

08-08-2006, 08:33 AM

I'm "looking at things from Bendis' point of view", hmm? Interesting that, as I've felt this way about those characters long before he ever wrote an Avengers book. Have you considered it possible that if two entirely different people look at the same set of data independantly of one another and draw the same conclusions, there might be something there that they're seeing?

As for things Hawkeye has "done", I say so? It's fiction, the writers can and do fudge for characters. It happens all the time. For every example of Hawkeye having "done" something, I can point you to a movie where a guy killed a hundred or more armed men all while dodging thousands of bullets and accomplishing strings of improbable feats with perfect precision and not a single thing gone wrong. It's still poor writing, whether it's Hawkeye beating She-Hulk or Rambo killing hundreds of Soviet soldiers with nothing more than his trusty survival knife.

Fact is, the RPG doesn't lie. The rules are a level playing field and the dice favor no one, and when the storyteller fudges for a character everyone -knows- it. And I can tell you from experience, Hawkeye can't compete on the playing field the Avengers are on, not without fudging things in his favor. This isn't conjecture, this is experimental data drawn from the fairest simulation we have available to us. The numbers simply do not crunch in his favor.

You know what I find interesting? The people for Hawkeye because of his "personality" are saying combat ability doesn't matter, and his attitude makes him better for "roleplayers" over "powergamers". These are the same people who criticize Bendis for emphasizing dialogue and character interaction over action and battle.

Personally I find both to be important, because as much as I love dialogue and character interaction (and I love it a -lot-, let me tell you), at the end of the day these are -heroic- characters and thus are by definition dynamic. They're defined by what they do, not just who they are. To be a crimefighter, you must fight crime. To be a heroic savior, you must save people and things. It is here where Hawkeye's abilities fail to be the equal of his bravado and determination.

Bravado and determination are wonderful things, and they define a hero as much as their powers if not more so. Bravado and determination is why the chinese guy at Tiananmen Square who stood in front of the tanks is a hero. His lack of offensive and defensive capability, however, is why he sadly didn't win that fight.

Hawkeye, in anything resembling a fair and unbiased scenerio with all gloves off, would sadly and inevitably end up the same way. A martyr, a symbol, a testament to courage against all odds, but ultimately no more able to twist the laws of physics in his favor to pull out the impossible victory. He's only human, after all, and humans don't win fights against tanks. Worse still for poor Hawkeye, some of the enemies the Avengers face make a tank look like a teddybear.

Then again, he makes arrows with boxing gloves on the end of them actually fly, so who knows maybe he really can bend the laws of physics after all? Gods know they don't do that in the real world.

Oh, wait, that's just bad writing too. Never mind.

motteditor

08-08-2006, 11:26 AM

Fact is, the RPG doesn't lie. The rules are a level playing field and the dice favor no one, and when the storyteller fudges for a character everyone -knows- it. And I can tell you from experience, Hawkeye can't compete on the playing field the Avengers are on, not without fudging things in his favor. This isn't conjecture, this is experimental data drawn from the fairest simulation we have available to us. The numbers simply do not crunch in his favor.

But comics aren't an RPG -- they're fiction. They don't have to play by numbers and ranking and dice rolls, but rather by how the author writes the characters. If I were to stat out Harry Potter, for example, Hermione's smarter than Harry or Ron, but that doesn't mean she's going to solve every problem. Harry's the hero.

Also, I've found superhero RPGs (Champions, the old Marvel game) tend to focus far more on combat (though that may be my experience and others may have found differently). But again, the comics don't do that. To look at D&D, a fighter is probably going to beat a thief in one-on-one combat every time. But go into a dungeon where you've got a bunch of traps and suddenly the thief is the better character. Hawkeye does certain things better than Thor or Cap or Iron Man. Not everything, but certain things.

Just seems to me you're too focused on stating him and then focusing on the fact that he's a regular human. There's more to him than that. And clearly he's never been killed by an enemy, even if you think he should have been. It wasn't until Bendis decided he'd kill himself that he had anything worse than a broken limb.

Here's a good example -- his classic fight with USAgent in Avengers West. Hawkeye was clearly overmatched physically, but he didn't give up. He got his ass kicked. I'd argue he won the fight, though, by showing his tenacity and showing Walker what he was made of. Sounds to me like you'd say he lost simply because he took a beating.

Then again, he makes arrows with boxing gloves on the end of them actually fly, so who knows maybe he really can bend the laws of physics after all? Gods know they don't do that in the real world.

You make it sound like Hawkeye's got on trick arrow and that's all he uses. You know he's used a wide variety. I certainly don't remember the last time he used a boxing glove arrow.

kitty_tc

08-08-2006, 12:33 PM

But comics aren't an RPG -- they're fiction. They don't have to play by numbers and ranking and dice rolls, but rather by how the author writes the characters.

Just seems to me you're too focused on stating him and then focusing on the fact that he's a regular human. There's more to him than that. And clearly he's never been killed by an enemy, even if you think he should have been. It wasn't until Bendis decided he'd kill himself that he had anything worse than a broken limb.

Hawkeye's survival is a clear example of a character shield in action. Most of his successes are attributable to the same. Can you honestly argue otherwise?

Here's a good example -- his classic fight with USAgent in Avengers West. Hawkeye was clearly overmatched physically, but he didn't give up. He got his ass kicked. I'd argue he won the fight, though, by showing his tenacity and showing Walker what he was made of. Sounds to me like you'd say he lost simply because he took a beating.

Umm, not trying to come across too snarky here, but last I checked getting beaten down in a fight is pretty much the standard definition of losing. Saying he won because he kept coming back for more punishment in the face of futility is a hell of a spin job, and may even have some truth on a strategic rather than tactical level, but in practical terms yes Hawkeye lost that fight. There's no real way of getting around that.

You make it sound like Hawkeye's got one trick arrow and that's all he uses. You know he's used a wide variety. I certainly don't remember the last time he used a boxing glove arrow.

I like using the example of the boxing glove arrow because I find it an amusing image, and it serves as effective shorthand for what I feel is the inherent ridiculousness of the character concept.

Really, if you were presented with the opportunity to gain superpowers of your choice, exactly how high would "has a bow and arrows" rank on your list? Can you honestly tell me it wouldn't rate somewhere on the end of the scale with "breathes water and talks to fish"? Be honest.

tunabeard

08-08-2006, 12:53 PM

Though it would make sense in the eyes of many fans, the issue isn't about Hawkeye hunting down the woman who killed him, brought him back to life, and then, well…killed him again. It's a bit more psychological, as Hawkeye tries to come to grips with his death, life, death, and life again.

"No one's come back from the dead, having been murdered not once, but twice, by someone who was a friend that they loved, and had a romantic inkling towards when they first met - and then come back to deal with that," Bendis said. </A></center>

I thought he died once during "Disassembled"??? how many times did he actually die?

tunabeard

08-08-2006, 12:55 PM

Though it would make sense in the eyes of many fans, the issue isn't about Hawkeye hunting down the woman who killed him, brought him back to life, and then, well…killed him again. It's a bit more psychological, as Hawkeye tries to come to grips with his death, life, death, and life again.

"No one's come back from the dead, having been murdered not once, but twice, by someone who was a friend that they loved, and had a romantic inkling towards when they first met - and then come back to deal with that," Bendis said.

Just how many times did Hawkeye die? I thought he was killed during "Diassembled"...

AdamYJ

08-08-2006, 01:08 PM

I like using the example of the boxing glove arrow because I find it an amusing image, and it serves as effective shorthand for what I feel is the inherent ridiculousness of the character concept.

The boxing glove arrow is much more Green Arrow's thing than Clint's.

Really, if you were presented with the opportunity to gain superpowers of your choice, exactly how high would "has a bow and arrows" rank on your list? Can you honestly tell me it wouldn't rate somewhere on the end of the scale with "breathes water and talks to fish"? Be honest.

I think being an archer would be pretty cool. Then again, I'm a bit of a fantasy geek, so I like the idea of being a "ranger". Of course, being a knight like ol' Dane Whitman would be pretty cool too. I suppose the option of being a wizard would also be present, but magic is also a little complicated and hard to define. Better to be an actual fighter.

Anyway, I'm surprised there's all this talk about Hawkeye fitting in with the Avengers and yet Captain America is accepted. People forget that Cap does not really have any true powers, he's just at the peak level of human conditioning. Also, shooting arrows should probably be more effective than throwing a shield like a discuss. He's only a little bit better than Hawkeye defensively and at close range, but is worse than Hawkeye at long range. Yet, he's accepted as fitting into the Avengers simply because he's Captain America.

motteditor

08-08-2006, 02:11 PM

Hawkeye's survival is a clear example of a character shield in action. Most of his successes are attributable to the same. Can you honestly argue otherwise?

Not quite sure what you mean by character shield. You mean that he's not killed simply because the writer chooses not to? If so, I'd argue that holds true for almost every single character in the MU. Do you really think you couldn't write a scene to kill Captain America in half a minute? Or Wanda, or Vision or Iron Man (hell, Bendis did write that when Namor pulled him underwater and pulled his helmet off).

Umm, not trying to come across too snarky here, but last I checked getting beaten down in a fight is pretty much the standard definition of losing. Saying he won because he kept coming back for more punishment in the face of futility is a hell of a spin job, and may even have some truth on a strategic rather than tactical level, but in practical terms yes Hawkeye lost that fight. There's no real way of getting around that.

But I really think you're missing the point of the character (and that scene). Yes, he lost the fight. But in the process he began gaining USAgent's respect and friendship. This isn't D&D where you either have a party victory, flee the scene or a TPK. There's a story going on and it comes down to more than can character A defeat character B because he's got a 17 strength and +5 to hit as opposed to a 12 strength and +1 to hit.

It takes all of 30 seconds to find a way for Clint to be more useful than your "heavy hitters." If the Avengers are fighting a bunch of fliers with an EMP, Hawkeye's fine. Iron Man's screwed, though. Wonder Man can't get to them because his jetpacks are gone (well, I guess now that he's ionic, he could). She-Hulk's a bit impotent. Quicksilver's useless. And Wanda's probably trying to kill the rest of the Avengers, so she's no good. Hawkeye, on the other hand, is fine. He's also able to improvise his equipment (or pick it up in any Wal-Mart), while if Cap loses his shield, he's FUBAR.

The boxing glove arrow is much more Green Arrow's thing than Clint's.

Thanks. I really was struggling to remember if Hawkeye used this trick, when I thought it was more Ollie's thing.

Anyway, I'm surprised there's all this talk about Hawkeye fitting in with the Avengers and yet Captain America is accepted. People forget that Cap does not really have any true powers, he's just at the peak level of human conditioning. Also, shooting arrows should probably be more effective than throwing a shield like a discuss. He's only a little bit better than Hawkeye defensively and at close range, but is worse than Hawkeye at long range. Yet, he's accepted as fitting into the Avengers simply because he's Captain America.

Another good point.