NEW JOE FRIDAYS: WEEK 08

[MattBrady]

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays08.html"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/WW_Chicago_06/Marvel/ScarletWitch-new_t.jpg" Border="0" align=right></a><I>Joe Quesada is off to <b>WizardWorld: Chicago</b> and spends part of his 7 & 1/2-hour flight delay (no lie) answering 20 Reader Questions before this weekend’s convention news-fest. The return of this lady to your right and Marvel Boy? Wolverine Meets “Die Hard”? More on <b>Mighty Avengers</b>? These are just some of this week’s topics.

Oh, and that plane never did take off. Looks like Joe’s in for early morning flight…</I>

<b>Reader Question: “HankChinaski” - With the new <I>Dr. Strange</I> comic out soon there is a question as to how it will fit with J Michael Straczynski re-imagining of Strange that came out a few years ago...will that still be the origin or are you dumping Straczynski's Marvel Knights book?

JQ</B>: HankChinaski, we're not dumping anything. As you know, Marvel Knights is an imprint in which we will be doing more and more stories like JMS' Doc Strange...

Click <a href=http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays08.html>here</a> for the full Q&A...

[Joxer487]

Ape Beast all the way!

[Wellness]

I almost don't want them to get to Wanda after what happened to Xorn.

New Avengers should really be building their own subplots and stories rather than just tackling all the Marvel retcon stuff. And it sounds like all the bitchin over Wolverine has earned the epilogue a rewrite to explain Logan's survival.

[Cyko]

>RQ: “Corey291: - The Beast is just about my favorite Marvel character. Are there any plans to change Dr. McCoy back to his blue ape form?

JQ: That's a great question Corey291! At recent X-Men panels I've asked for a show of hands as to people's favorite versions of the beast. I have to honest, I'm an old school, flesh and blood, Hank McCoy fan myself. So, while there are no current plans to have the Beast revert in any way, what do you folks here on Newsarama think, what's your favorite version? <

<img src="http://ffmedia.ign.com/x-men/multimedia/feature/beast.jpg" WIDTH=193 HEIGHT=210>

Gotta be the "ape" Beast.

[Jef]

Cat Beast forever!!!

[silverbolt]

RQ: “czhorse” - Magneto is one of the few characters whose origins are tied to historical events. Since we're now going on 70 years since the Holocaust, it is increasingly difficult to think of Erik as both a Holocaust survivor and an able-bodied, physically capable character. Has there ever been any thought given to either changing his origins (though its hard to imagine an equally effective alternative) or tweaking his powers to explain his longevity?

JQ: Hey, czhorse, for a question such as this, I like to go to our resident expert on all things X-Men, X-Men Senior Editor, Mike Marts.

Mike Marts: Okay, czhorse, ready for this? What few people know is that once upon a time, Magneto genetically engineered a being called Alpha the Ultimate Mutant, who eventually fought against his creator and turned him into a baby. Charles Xavier’s colleague Moira MacTaggert cared for the infant Magneto for a while, until the Shi’Ar agent Eric the Red transformed Magneto back into an adult, but as a younger man than he was before. Thus the reason why Magneto appears younger than he actually is!

"what few people know"? dude, not for nothing, but this was explained - a second time - during XMEN # 1 AND 2 which sold HOW MANY MULTIPLE MILLION copies? this poster may not have known, but certainly why would a senior editor think that "few people" would know?

Better question is if he did live through the holocaust and still was Xaviers friend in "post college" years, how is _Xavier_ still holding up? Maybe getting some Shi'Ar poonanni keeps you young and fit.

[swol]

Ape Beast please.

[Ben543250]

Cat Beast is purrrrrrrfect!

[Ben543250]

RQ: “czhorse” - Magneto is one of the few characters whose origins are tied to historical events. Since we're now going on 70 years since the Holocaust, it is increasingly difficult to think of Erik as both a Holocaust survivor and an able-bodied, physically capable character. Has there ever been any thought given to either changing his origins (though its hard to imagine an equally effective alternative) or tweaking his powers to explain his longevity?

JQ: Hey, czhorse, for a question such as this, I like to go to our resident expert on all things X-Men, X-Men Senior Editor, Mike Marts.

Mike Marts: Okay, czhorse, ready for this? What few people know is that once upon a time, Magneto genetically engineered a being called Alpha the Ultimate Mutant, who eventually fought against his creator and turned him into a baby. Charles Xavier’s colleague Moira MacTaggert cared for the infant Magneto for a while, until the Shi’Ar agent Eric the Red transformed Magneto back into an adult, but as a younger man than he was before. Thus the reason why Magneto appears younger than he actually is!

"what few people know"? dude, not for nothing, but this was explained - a second time - during XMEN # 1 AND 2 which sold HOW MANY MULTIPLE MILLION copies? this poster may not have known, but certainly why would a senior editor think that "few people" would know?

They should put your post in the dictionary next to the word "nitpick." Christ.

[Ace]

Better question is if he did live through the holocaust and still was Xaviers friend in "post college" years, how is _Xavier_ still holding up? Maybe getting some Shi'Ar poonanni keeps you young and fit.

Actually, that's not too far off.

Cloned body after the brood got 'im way back when.

[Varrus]

>RQ: “Corey291: - The Beast is just about my favorite Marvel character. Are there any plans to change Dr. McCoy back to his blue ape form?

JQ: That's a great question Corey291! At recent X-Men panels I've asked for a show of hands as to people's favorite versions of the beast. I have to honest, I'm an old school, flesh and blood, Hank McCoy fan myself. So, while there are no current plans to have the Beast revert in any way, what do you folks here on Newsarama think, what's your favorite version? <

<img src="http://ffmedia.ign.com/x-men/multimedia/feature/beast.jpg" WIDTH=193 HEIGHT=210>

Gotta be the "ape" Beast.
I concur! I don't like his new "cat" form at all...

[silverbolt]

Actually, that's not too far off.

Cloned body after the brood got 'im way back when.

ooh....good one.

[Spaz_Monkey]

Do yourselves a favor - Don't GIS "the beast" without Safe Search. It's disturbing. :eek:

That said........
http://www.alchemycomics.com/Merchant2/marvelmasterpieces95/marvelmasterpieces95c8.jpg

[silverbolt]

They should put your post in the dictionary next to the word "nitpick." Christ.

nitpick how? simply answering the question would have been ok because a reminder to someone who either doenst know something or had forgotten is ok...but for a senior editor to say "what few people know" about a plotline in possibly the highest selling book comic history is kinda moronic.
yeah, i actually read my comics sue me.

[bluebird]

"While we could launch a second Avengers title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis..."


Yeah. I can't think of anyone. Sure, maybe Alan Moore or Grant Morrison, maybe Frank Miller. Or even Geoff Johns, at this point. But they're not currently working for Marvel? If that's the case, I can't think of anyone at all. Except Mark Millar. Or Brian K. Vaughn. Or Neil freaking' Gaiman!

It's the characters, not the writer! Do one issue with a guest writer and test that theory. You'll see.

And Cat beast 4-Ever. I agree with Morrison--why should Beast look like a blue Wolverine?

[PaxHouse]

Sooooooooo.......A Marvel/Michael Turner Project and the next wave of YOUNG GUNS, hmmmmmm...?!?:eek:

Can't wait to hear more on them soon.....;) :cool:

PS.......Loved the 'Ape' Beast better than 'Cat' Beast anyway.....;) :D

[ParisCub]

Cat Beast!

Or Human Beast!

[FallenFate]

"While we could launch a second Avengers title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis..."


Yeah. I can't think of anyone. Sure, maybe Alan Moore or Grant Morrison, maybe Frank Miller. Or even Geoff Johns, at this point. But they're not currently working for Marvel? If that's the case, I can't think of anyone at all. Except Mark Millar. Or Brian K. Vaughn. Or Neil freaking' Gaiman!

It's the characters, not the writer! Do one issue with a guest writer and test that theory. You'll see.

And Cat beast 4-Ever. I agree with Morrison--why should Beast look like a blue Wolverine?

Actually, the Beast had his look first...so wouldn't Wolverine look like a flesh-colored Beast? I love the old loveable blue hairball....one of the best character designs and his first appearances after the change were some of the best written stories ion Marvel history. I can't stand the way the cat beast looks...it plays too much off the "beauty and the Beast" look of Ron Perelman from the old tv show.

[bluebird]

"Mike Marts: Okay, czhorse, ready for this? What few people know is that once upon a time, Magneto genetically engineered a being called Alpha the Ultimate Mutant, who eventually fought against his creator and turned him into a baby. Charles Xavier’s colleague Moira MacTaggert cared for the infant Magneto for a while, until the Shi’Ar agent Eric the Red transformed Magneto back into an adult, but as a younger man than he was before. Thus the reason why Magneto appears younger than he actually is!"


Yeah, a friend just stumble across this in an Essentials volume. Oh, how we laughed at the stupidity of it. I was actually surprised to see it metnioned in a flashback of those best-selling Jim Lee books. The whole story was about how pissed Magneto was about having been turned into a baby, and how we wasn't sure if Moira had messed with his mind to make him act like a good guy instead of a bad guy.

Oh, how I laughed all over again.


And I say again: Cat beast! But make your artists study Frank Quitely's drawings long and hard, as some people draw him more like a muppet beast or a teddy bear beast. But, aw, why bother? Re-evolve him or de-evolve him back to an ape beast. Hell, you made Magneto a baby, why can't Beast slide up and down the evolutionary ladder? You've undone everything cool in Grant Morrison's X-Men run so far except making Emma a good guy and Beast a Cat--Go on, make him into hairy WOlverine and have Emma rejoin the Hellfire Club. Oh, wait...

[havokX24]

Viva Ape Beast, cat beast looks like a splicing of dna from chewbacca, the big animal from the never-ending story, and clifford the big red dog (and a cat),

I cannot wait for the second avengers book! NAysayers be DAMNED!

[motteditor]

JQ: Damn you Marvel solicits!!!!

Heh. For some reason, this really made me laugh.

Oooh, I got another question answered. Still, I think it's short-sighted. I have to wonder how many people who are reading the book are actually Avengers fans and how many of them are going to stop reading when Spider-Man, Wolverine and Bendis eventually leave the title. And just to clarify again, I don't like Bendis' writing. The man himself made a very good impression on me the one time we met.

TB: Because nobody was satisfied with that offhanded non-explanation, and it didn’t make a heck of a lot of sense by itself even as a throwaway. Why would Wanda have done that?

Hey, it's like they just summed up everything done with Wanda the last three years.

JQ: (Scarlet Witch in) New Avengers #26

Dammit.

[bluebird]

Actually, the Beast had his look first...so wouldn't Wolverine look like a flesh-colored Beast? I love the old loveable blue hairball....one of the best character designs and his first appearances after the change were some of the best written stories ion Marvel history. I can't stand the way the cat beast looks...it plays too much off the "beauty and the Beast" look of Ron Perelman from the old tv show.


Wow, I didn't know that. Man, then Beast should demand Wolverine get a damn haircut! I guess it's a matter of Wolverine being the more popular character, and people knowhing who he is before the know who Beast is, and thus assume it's Logan's look.

Now, what about The Owl...?

Oh, and speaking of who originated what look, Cat Beast is based on Jean Cocteau's influential French film, La Belle et la Bete, which both the Disney movie and the Ron Perelman TV show looked to for visual inspiration.

I think Cat Beast made more sense in the context of Morrison's run, where mutations were happening faster and faster, pre-existing mutants were experiencing secondary mutations, and mankind was on it's way out the door. In the new context, where mutants are an endangered species, it makes less sense.

[DBHughes]

Why is Brevoort cranky? The man probably has the most cushy job in the industry; or, at least, I assume that's the case since Tom spends most of his time on the internet taking on all comers (from Newsarama Blog posts to hunting down stray comments by Bob Layton). Yeah...Civil War has kept Brevoort *real* busy. :rolleyes:

[Layters]

What is the point of these q and a's if the answer to everything is no comment.

From the sound of things the news this weekend isnt going to be up to much either. Seems like its just another chance for a Marketing Push for talent whose projects will be secret.I dont see the point.

[khuxford]

Ape Beast all the way!

I'd take Ape Beast and Human Beast again...or a completely new iteration. I like playing havoc with his life. :)

[ejulp]

cat beast
for lots of reasons,
one being it represents this great fear this great mind
has of losing control to his nature, that angle, explored
with an ape look, wouldn't be that intimidating

as for xorn
i liked the half a$$ed excuse in house of m
it kept the end of morrison's run
and house of m made Xorn a re-usable charactor from Austen's arc
(and for marvel retconning mags so he wouldn't look like a mass murderer,
it wasn't neccassry, it was the Kick drug, Sublime in him, that caused him to do it)

i really liked the anti-machismo, peaceful quality of xorn, not usually found
in xmen comics (or super hero comics, especially his stilted dialogue),
i thought he added a lot to the group dynamic

so yeah,
not a big fan of the collective arc :)

[AngryAmerican66]

JQ: Motteditor, I get it, you don't like Bendis, that's cool, you've made it pretty clear across the 'net that you feel that way. That said, New Avengers under Bendis is arguably the best selling comic in the entire industry. So, while fandom is divided on almost every single thing done by every single publisher, judging by the popularity of New Avengers, they're not really all that divided on this issue. And yes, while we could launch a second Avengers title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis and Frank Cho.

Thanks for once again locking out the old school Avengers fans, and giving us more decompressed, out of character crap by Bendis.

[khuxford]

Heh. For some reason, this really made me laugh.

Oooh, I got another question answered. Still, I think it's short-sighted. I have to wonder how many people who are reading the book are actually Avengers fans and how many of them are going to stop reading when Spider-Man, Wolverine and Bendis eventually leave the title. And just to clarify again, I don't like Bendis' writing. The man himself made a very good impression on me the one time we met.

Hey, it's like they just summed up everything done with Wanda the last three years.

Dammit.

No offense, Mott...I like you and can see why you're upset...but I don't think that a business cares how many are really Avengers fans than fans of what characters they put in the book...as long as it sells...

[Gladiator X]

>RQ: “Corey291: - The Beast is just about my favorite Marvel character. Are there any plans to change Dr. McCoy back to his blue ape form?

JQ: That's a great question Corey291! At recent X-Men panels I've asked for a show of hands as to people's favorite versions of the beast. I have to honest, I'm an old school, flesh and blood, Hank McCoy fan myself. So, while there are no current plans to have the Beast revert in any way, what do you folks here on Newsarama think, what's your favorite version? <

<img src="http://ffmedia.ign.com/x-men/multimedia/feature/beast.jpg" WIDTH=193 HEIGHT=210>

Gotta be the "ape" Beast.


Verily!"Ape" Beast all the way!

[Ace]

I really think people worry too much about time passing in comics.

I'd much rather Tony Stark have the 60s origin and time just passing differently in the MU. I'd also much rather have Reed and Ben both fight in WW II.

Part of the wonder (hey, remember when the MU had wonder) of the Marvel Universe is that time works somewhat differently. That's part of the fun of it all.

If I want reality, I'll go outside, without a comic book.

[phnxcmx]

More than anything, I'm tired of him looking like a slob. Bring back the real "ape" Beast as he was drawn for decades, before Rob Liefeld gave him sideburns (in an X-Factor fill-in) and Jim Lee (no offense to Mr Lee) gave him Wolverine's hair.

No sideburns, no messy hair!

People complained that the ape Beast looks too much like Wolverine but that's because those two changes added even more of Wolverine's characteristics. The sideburns make no sense and never did. When he gained the fur, he was COVERED with it (unlike X3's skin-faced monkey man). He shouldn't be any hairier on the side of his face than he is on the bridge of his nose!

As for the hair, check out the cover to Avengers #200 or the headshot in the corner box from that same time period and get a look at a Hank McCoy who looked like he cared about his appearance! A Beast that looked like a hero didn't seem out of place standing next to Captain America!

[S-Prime]

"While we could launch a second Avengers title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis..."


Yeah. I can't think of anyone. Sure, maybe Alan Moore or Grant Morrison, maybe Frank Miller. Or even Geoff Johns, at this point. But they're not currently working for Marvel? If that's the case, I can't think of anyone at all. Except Mark Millar. Or Brian K. Vaughn. Or Neil freaking' Gaiman!

It's the characters, not the writer! Do one issue with a guest writer and test that theory. You'll see.

And Cat beast 4-Ever. I agree with Morrison--why should Beast look like a blue Wolverine?

Actually, Wolverine looks like Beast, seeing as blue Beast came about two years before Wolverine was created.


EDIT: FallenFate beat me to it.

[caleb]

I'd take Ape Beast and Human Beast again...or a completely new iteration. I like playing havoc with his life. :)


Yeah man, I'm all for Parameci-Beast.

No, Cat Beast. Cat Beast, dammit! CAAAAAAAAATTTTTT!!!!!!! BEEEEEEEEAAASSSSTTTTT!!!!! (Volume counts in a poll, right?)

[Bird Flu Man]

RQ: “motteditor” - As a longtime fan of the Avengers -- and a fairly vocal opponent of Bendis' version of the series -- why should I have any reason to look forward to Mighty Avengers? Obviously New Avengers is selling well, but just as obviously there's a segment of the audience that doesn't like it -- why not launch the new book with someone who's not as polarizing?

JQ: Motteditor, I get it, you don't like Bendis, that's cool, you've made it pretty clear across the 'net that you feel that way. That said, New Avengers under Bendis is arguably the best selling comic in the entire industry. So, while fandom is divided on almost every single thing done by every single publisher, judging by the popularity of New Avengers, they're not really all that divided on this issue. And yes, while we could launch a second Avengers title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis and Frank Cho.


Yeah, that's pretty much the same answer Tom Brevoort gave when someone asked him a similar question on his marvel.com blog.

I've made it no secret that I haven't been a fan of Bendis' direction on New Avengers, primarily because I view him as a writer best suited for small-scale, personal, street-level stories who's really out of his element when it comes to big events and sci-fi superhero concepts. And I'm not a total Bendis-hater -- I can't stand his “Who’s on First?”-style dialogue 95 percent of the time, but the man can tell a decent story when it comes to low-key, personal tales grounded in real-world situations (I'll throw the latest Luke Cage issue of New Avengers out there as an example). The Avengers, on the other hand, is traditionally a title all about grandiose, Earth-threatening events and sci-fi superhero concepts. I'm not saying that it's not possible for a writer to be versatile, adopt different styles, and work within different genres (look at the incomparable Ed Brubaker doing a mutant space opera, for instance) -- but, unlike Brubaker, Bendis has yet to prove his versatility to me. I like Harry Connick, Jr. and I like rap music, but I wouldn’t like to hear a Harry Connick, Jr. rap album.

When I heard there were going to be two Avengers teams coming out of Civil War, I thought, "Great, this will be the perfect opportunity for Marvel to appease disenfranchised old school Avengers fans with over-the-top, fast-paced, sci-fi superhero theatrics while allowing Bendis to continue the decompressed, real-world-grounded, street-level, espionage angle he's been working with over on New Avengers." I thought Mighty Avengers could truly become Marvel’s answer to the JLA with super-powered heroes facing cosmic threats while Bendis’ New Avengers could become something akin to Chuck Dixon’s “Marvel Knights,” with grounded, street-level heroes investigating secret conspiracies and fighting ninjas

Then I heard the decision to have Bendis write both titles . . . opportunity lost, I’m afraid.

I can't argue with the sales success of New Avengers. But I can and do totally disagree with the theory that it's Bendis' name alone that places the New Avengers at the top of the charts each month. Under that theory, Spider Woman: Origins #4 would have also been in the top ten rather than at #55 for the month of March. Does Powers even make the Top 100? I think it's more accurate to say that New Avengers' success is most attributable to the decision to make Wolverine and Spider-Man part of the team (thus hooking the large fan bases of those two popular characters) in addition to the insane amount of publicity it gets in popular magazines like Wizard. Plus, it's not as if the Avengers title was selling that poorly prior to Bendis' arrival -- it wasn't often top ten, but it wasn't that far behind. I'm not saying that Bendis' name recognition doesn't get any mileage, but his name alone doesn't get New Avengers into the top ten every month. He's not King Midas and his sales on other titles prove that not everything he touches turns to gold. Thus, I think a Mighty Avengers written by someone like Kurt Busiek, Greg Pak, Dan Slott, Robert Kirkman, or Fabian Nicieza would have done just as well sales-wise as one written by Bendis. And I think we could have been anticipating much higher quality Avengers stories had there been a second writer chosen for the second title.

But, the release of Mighty Avengers is still months away, so Bendis could still drastically improve his game and prove me wrong . . . but I’m not betting on it.

[BillReed]

Wolf Beast. No. Wait. Mongoose Beast. No. Koala Beast.

Barring that, Cat Beast.

[20yrslater]

First choice: human (with blue hair?)
second choice: ape

[randomengine]

Ape Beast please.

I'm here, I'm here.

[johnny.blaze]

Abe Beast. Cat Beast is a pu$$y :p

[Severance]

Totally agree with "Bird Flu Man" - missed opportunity I'm afraid, but hoping to be proved wrong.

[caleb]

What are your powers Bird Flu Man? Can you give the bird flu to human beings, or just birds?

[IronWolf]

[QUOTE=motteditor] I have to wonder how many people who are reading the book are actually Avengers fans and how many of them are going to stop reading when Spider-Man, Wolverine and Bendis eventually leave the title. .[QUOTE]


Well i must say i am some who never read avengers before Spider-man Wolverine and Bendis and after reading it i was hooked to the "Old" style and "Old" teams. Now i love Avengers and am looking foward to Mighty Avengers alot.

[tralfaz]

As you may or may not know, JMS' Doc was actually a screenplay he had written for a Doc Strange movie that we repurposed and turned into a comic book.
its a good thing they didnt make it into a movie cause it sucked

[khuxford]

Abe Beast. Cat Beast is a pu$$y :p

Abe Beast? Does he have a beard and where a stove pipe hat? Or does he observe the sabbath? :p

[Justice Daye]

cat beast
for lots of reasons,
one being it represents this great fear this great mind
has of losing control to his nature, that angle, explored
with an ape look, wouldn't be that intimidating

Hank had already questioned his animal nature (I'd even go so far as to say he and Ben Grimm had the same problem, yet there was little need to turn Ben's limbs into boulders so that he can newly angst about a problem he'd angsted about before). I don't get how the looks are any different really. The cat-look was just a new reason to make him angst. There was nothing unique about the look as he could've been turned into anything and still had the same angst, IMO. The cat look seems arbitrary and pointless now that he no longer angsts about his animal nature. To maintain seems to only maintain GM's story and little else currently. The ape look was his defining look as well as unique at the time. The only real similarity to Logan is the hair. I say give him some kind of mane and call it a day.

Then I heard the decision to have Bendis write both titles . . . opportunity lost, I’m afraid.

Well, according to some, ...spoilers











Hawkeye will be leading a team that won't be Bendis written...maybe the New Alpha Flight or Champions.

[Ogre U AHole]

I was having the same thought as Justice above. Go back to slightly more ape-ish face and body but avoid the wingtip hair and perhaps keep the cat eyes or something. But really, avoid the wing-tip hair.

Echoing disappointment about Mighty Avengers and feelings of missed opprotunity.

[Arsenal3]

Great post, Bird Flu Man. It sums up my feelings almost to the letter.

"Who's-On-First" dialogue. HA! You nailed it!

Also, I'm a fan of old-school Beast. I hate when people call him "Ape Beast," but that's the one I like.

Anybody remember an old humor strip, probably from Marvel Age, called "Thor Gets a Haircut?" He goes into a barber shop, ends up with the Wolverine haircut, and freaks out. Then, it shows the rest of the people in the shop, and it includes Beast, Space Phantom, Wolverine, Starfox, The Owl, Quicksilver, etc. They're all like, "looks good to me."

[Bird Flu Man]

What are your powers Bird Flu Man? Can you give the bird flu to human beings, or just birds?

I can transfer the bird flu to human beings only through sexual intercourse while I can transfer it to birds via either saliva or sexual intercourse, but that's probably more than you wanted to know . . .

[pez dispenser]

Thanks for once again locking out the old school Avengers fans, and giving us more decompressed, out of character crap by Bendis.

Speak for yourself. I've been reading and enjoying the Avengers since the late 70's.
I'm enjoying Bendis' run.
I'm sure I'm not the only "old school" fan who is, either.

[funjoe]

Speak for yourself. I've been reading and enjoying the Avengers since the late 70's.
I'm enjoying Bendis' run.
I'm sure I'm not the only "old school" fan who is, either.

You're not, I loved the Avengers since the Perez run in the 70s, and I am very much enjoying the New Avengers with Bendis as well. At the same time, I must say I was hoping a second Avengers title would have a different writer on it, just for a change of pace if nothing else. Are there any other examples of multiple books about the same character(s) written by the same writer?

[Rubber Sled]

BRING BACK THE PEREZ BEAST!!!

[ejulp]

[QUOTE=Justice Daye]The cat look seems arbitrary and pointless now that he no longer angsts about his animal nature. To maintain seems to only maintain GM's story and little else currently.. .

cats seem more ferocious and primal to me, so, to me the new look worked, the new dimension made him more likable, whereas an ape seems smarter, and more able to act domesticated...but i will agree, few artists "got" the look like Quitely. But if he's ape(looking) again, IF they can do something new with the look, not really the end of the world, is it? :)

[JohnnyZemo]

Ape Beast (as drawn by Perez) all the way!!!!

[johnny99]

Cat Beast!

Or Human Beast!

Here here. Give me the Beast's current incarnation any day of the week. The "ape-like" beast, with his Wolverine-esque hair style, isn't nearly as distinct as his new form.

Furthermore, why must Joe Q. ret-con every little bit of progress that any Marvel character (especially any X-character) has experienced?

[Uncle Jawa]

Beast w/his original look, minus any fur, please :)

[caleb]

I can transfer the bird flu to human beings only through sexual intercourse while I can transfer it to birds via either saliva or sexual intercourse, but that's probably more than you wanted to know . . .

Oh. Um. Hm. Well, uh, good luck getting your own comic book then. Oh look, there's SARS Man, I'm gonna go say hi...

[Bird Flu Man]

Hawkeye will be leading a team that won't be Bendis written...maybe the New Alpha Flight or Champions.

True enough, but when I heard that my first thought was that he'd be placed on the Thunderbolts to keep an eye on Zemo's new super-villain militia -- perhaps undercover in his guise as the Golden Archer (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/goldenarcher.htm).

[Bird Flu Man]

Oh. Um. Hm. Well, uh, good luck getting your own comic book then.


Thanks! My agent tells me that Chuck Austen has expressed interest . . .

[Kel Nuttall]

I guess I cast my vote for what people are calling "APE BEAST" even though he looked nothing like an ape to me. CLASSIC BLUE is what I call that version. ;)

So, CLASSIC BLUE or even way old scool HUMAN BEAST without any fur. But for God sakes, do away with that RIDICULOUS cat-thing pretending to be the Beast.

If you are keeping that lame cat version, for the luve'o Mike please set a standard for the look. It's distracting how his appearance completely changes from title to title or even issue to issue. Really, with the way every artist seems to draw him their own way it would be nothing at all to "reveal" that he's been in this constant state of flux and ....GASP... Look! It's finally over and he's been left in the CLASSIC BLUE form!!

[protege]

Hmmm... i have to wonder if he really believes that Mighty Avengers will sell BETTER with bendis at the helm, as opposed to a more traditional writer. and i wonder if we're going to get a THOR-style crossover event before getting a regular series?

[protege]

True enough, but when I heard that my first thought was that he'd be placed on the Thunderbolts to keep an eye on Zemo's new super-villain militia -- perhaps undercover in his guise as the Golden Archer (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/goldenarcher.htm).
it would make more sense for him to be on the Squadron sinister team...

[rwsmith]

Ape-beast, but without the Wolverine hair. Either long and in a pony-tail (like it was in Ultimate X-men), or shorter and more like a crew-cut.

[protege]

Heh. For some reason, this really made me laugh.

Oooh, I got another question answered. Still, I think it's short-sighted. I have to wonder how many people who are reading the book are actually Avengers fans and how many of them are going to stop reading when Spider-Man, Wolverine and Bendis eventually leave the title. And just to clarify again, I don't like Bendis' writing. The man himself made a very good impression on me the one time we met.



Hey, it's like they just summed up everything done with Wanda the last three years.



Dammit.
Well, that depends on who's on the team to replace them.

[nietoperz]

MY goodness, Quesada comes a cross as more smug every week. Motteditor, I get it, you don't like Bendis, that's cool, you've made it pretty clear across the 'net that you feel that way. That said, New Avengers under Bendis is arguably the best selling comic in the entire industry. So, while fandom is divided on almost every single thing done by every single publisher, judging by the popularity of New Avengers, they're not really all that divided on this issue. And yes, while we could launch a second Avengers title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis and Frank Cho.


Not really all that divided? :rolleyes:

[protege]

He's only looking at sales figures- people are buying the book for whatever reason, and that's the bottom line with him. i doubt he pays much attention to the screaming fanboys.

[silverbolt]

So, CLASSIC BLUE or even way old scool HUMAN BEAST without any fur. But for God sakes, do away with that RIDICULOUS cat-thing pretending to be the Beast.



as much as people luv grant morrison, this made no sense. as a human, Hank had a
slight hunch , overlarged arms and hands and feet, and agility. so when he took the potion, it made him beast-like or apelike if you want to go that route, it added to his appearance in a way that could logically happen, in a weird marvel-universe sense. But a secondary mutation from that, turning into a cat makes is plain 'huh?". where the feline-ness come from? if anything his secondary would have made him LOSE the blue fur look because he wasnt born with it in the first place.

[Gladiator X]

Speak for yourself. I've been reading and enjoying the Avengers since the late 70's.
I'm enjoying Bendis' run.
I'm sure I'm not the only "old school" fan who is, either.


Yeah.There's plenty of "old school" Avengers fans still reading and enjoying the book.I've been here since ish #128 and I'm diggin' the Avengers-verse as much as ever.

[jaredgood1]

Anyone else think Wolvie might be taking MGH or Kick? That would explain his semi-recent increase in power level.

[EdKaye]

I hope Joe Q wasn't serious in his comments about Comics only being delivered in Digital format. I dread the day this happens, I hate to read stuff off the computer screen, and if I want to read in bed the computer doesn't fit in that comfortably :D

But seriously, I hope that when the time comes companies like Marvel remember all of the Local Comic Shops that have supported them over the years, through the thick and thin. Without LCS comics wouldn't be where they are today, they could not sell in the bulk they currently do if our only source was the racks in bookstores and news agents. Hell, I think our local book store is still selling Green Lantern #7.

I bid you good day sir!

[Saint Zero]

Wahoo! I got a question answered. Now if I only knew if it did any good. :confused:

I prefer either the human Hank, or the Pre-Wolved Blue Fuzzball.

[Bird Flu Man]

But a secondary mutation from that, turning into a cat makes is plain 'huh?". where the feline-ness come from?

I think it came from visual renditions of the "Beauty and the Beast" folktale in popular culture. Morrison and/or Quitely probably associated "Beast" with "Beauty and the Beast" and then based the new look off either the Disney movie or the live-action television series.

I don't think much thought was put into any sort of in-story, pseudo-scientific logic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Beastball.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Hamilton-perlman-BandB.jpg

[Mundungus]

Well, I'm all for cat beast, but the whole topic has gotten pretty old.

I'm much more looking forward to this Wolverine x-mas special with Rob Williams and Laurence Campbell. BRING IT ON!

[Anarky76]

I vote Ape Beast definitely.

[silverbolt]

Well, I'm all for cat beast, but the whole topic has gotten pretty old.

I'm much more looking forward to this Wolverine x-mas special with Rob Williams and Laurence Campbell. BRING IT ON!

i cant help thinking of Bruce Willis with Adamantium claws saying Yippie-Kay-Yay, sorry.

[silverbolt]

I think it came from visual renditions of the "Beauty and the Beast" folktale in popular culture. Morrison and/or Quitely probably associated "Beast" with "Beauty and the Beast" and then based the new look off either the Disney movie or the live-action television series.

I don't think much thought was put into any sort of in-story, pseudo-scientific logic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Beastball.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Hamilton-perlman-BandB.jpg

so they had no clue as to what the actual character was about? yup, sounds about right!!

[Zhen Dil Oloth]

Ape Beast (as drawn by Perez) all the way!!!!

Agreed 1000%.

[Terram]

Not really all that divided?
Not really all that divided.

[Justice Daye]

cats seem more ferocious and primal to me, so, to me the new look worked, the new dimension made him more likable, whereas an ape seems smarter, and more able to act domesticated...but i will agree, few artists "got" the look like Quitely. But if he's ape(looking) again, IF they can do something new with the look, not really the end of the world, is it? :)

I certainly agree with you there. But, if no one's going to use the look in the context in which it was created (eg, follow-up on the thread's of Hank's feelings of losing his humanity and go somewhere with it), it's useless...and as you said, no seems capable of getting the look just right (though I prefer Van Sciver's Beast over Quietly's).

[Michael Heide]

Oooh, I got another question answered. Still, I think it's short-sighted. I have to wonder how many people who are reading the book are actually Avengers fans and how many of them are going to stop reading when Spider-Man, Wolverine and Bendis eventually leave the title. And just to clarify again, I don't like Bendis' writing. The man himself made a very good impression on me the one time we met.
If you're an editor, would you rather:
a) use a writer that actually sells the Avengers

or

b) appeal to a small crowd of old-school fans, lose all other readers and probably your job, only to let your successor undo your changes to get readers?

I'll take option a). At least I get to keep a bit of influence that way.

Oh, and Cat Beast please. Or something new. Everything else would be a step back, and we've got DC for that.

[Southwell]

The day comics are all digital is the day i stop collecting comics.

[Bird Flu Man]

If you're an editor, would you rather:
a) use a writer that actually sells the Avengers

or

b) appeal to a small crowd of old-school fans, lose all other readers and probably your job, only to let your successor undo your changes to get readers?


Those choices have no basis in reality whatsoever.

[Radiate]

Would've loved to see what ideas he would've had if he had control over the DC properties. Can't believe he answered my question as well. Made my day:D

RADIATE!

[Jef]

[QUOTE=Justice Daye]The cat look seems arbitrary and pointless now that he no longer angsts about his animal nature.

How do you figure? Beast's angst over his animal nature and his continued de-evolution is a central aspect of Astonishing X-Men.

[Jef]

The day comics are all digital is the day i stop collecting comics.

Nice tautology. That is, how could you collect an artifact if there are no artifacts to collect? So, would you still, you know, READ them?

[Dark Beast]

I'll echo Brian Bendis, Frank Cho, Frank Tieri, Chris Claremont, and most of Marvel's Bullpen of writers and artists when I say that it's time to bring back the iconic 'Apeman Beast' as was made such by George Perez. The cat devolution was the worst thing to ever happen to the character since he turned into a pure lab monkey thanks to the Legacy Virus plotline in the 90's. You lost almost any positive upbeat elements of the character, and devolved him into a depressed sadsack pathetic individual. There was no rational explaination for it, and it certainly doesn't fit even the character or his mutation.

Thankfully most artists have already ditched the funky cat legs, now it's time to get rid of the rest of the horrible abomination. Most fans seem to agree with those who want the Classic Apeman back as well. At almost every Comic Con they ask those in attendance which Beast they want, and the Apeman always gets the most applause. Even my own poll over on CBR indicates that more people want to see the classic 'Apeman Beast' back. It's about time to see Hank back being what made him such a great character again. And he can't be that while he's chained to a litter box and looking like a Thundercat. :)

Which form would you prefer to see Beast in?

Human -- 15 -- 8.38%
Apeman -- 114 -- 63.69%
Feline -- 50 27.93%

Voters: 179. This poll is closed

[Dark Beast]

How do you figure? Beast's angst over his animal nature and his continued de-evolution is a central aspect of Astonishing X-Men.
I wouldn't exactly call it a central aspect. And you can have the 'feral' elements of the character, without all the other horrid characterization and without the absurd look.

[Gladiator X]

The day comics are all digital is the day i stop collecting comics.


You and me both.

[bossofbam]

I hope Joe Q wasn't serious in his comments about Comics only being delivered in Digital format. I dread the day this happens, I hate to read stuff off the computer screen, and if I want to read in bed the computer doesn't fit in that comfortably :D


That, and I don't want the computer on my lap while I'm on the can :D

oh yeah, and here's another vote for classic blue aka ape

[IronWolf]

Cat Beast.

[motteditor]

If you're an editor, would you rather:
a) use a writer that actually sells the Avengers
or
b) appeal to a small crowd of old-school fans, lose all other readers and probably your job, only to let your successor undo your changes to get readers?

As someone else noted, the example isn't accurate.

Second of all, I think it behooves them also to take the long view. Are they creating Avengers fans or just having more people buy Bendis/Spider-Man/Wolverine who will drop the books the moment one, two or three of those aren't involved? And if the latter are they now dooming multiple books to cancellation at that moment or are they hoping alienated Avengers fans like me will come back, which is far from guaranteed.

Also, as someone else noted, it's not like people are breaking down the doors to buy Spider-Woman. I suspect a Whedon/Cassaday Mighty Avengers would sell well, or some other hot writer/Cho. To say Bendis/Cho is the only combination that could sell this book means they have no faith in their characters to be popular, a notion I disagree with.

[SmileOnADog]

Cat Beast forever!!!

I like ape beast but Cat Beast. Cat Beast!!!!

[HeroesMask]

I prefer the human Beast but I would surely settle for the Ape Beast. I've been an X-Men collector for more than 20 years and the whole secondary mutation concept was awful. The cat Beast looks terrible. And Emma's diamond form nonsense also bugs me. A powerful telepath should have been good enough.

[funjoe]

As someone else noted, the example isn't accurate.

Second of all, I think it behooves them also to take the long view. Are they creating Avengers fans or just having more people buy Bendis/Spider-Man/Wolverine who will drop the books the moment one, two or three of those aren't involved? And if the latter are they now dooming multiple books to cancellation at that moment or are they hoping alienated Avengers fans like me will come back, which is far from guaranteed.

Also, as someone else noted, it's not like people are breaking down the doors to buy Spider-Woman. I suspect a Whedon/Cassaday Mighty Avengers would sell well, or some other hot writer/Cho. To say Bendis/Cho is the only combination that could sell this book means they have no faith in their characters to be popular, a notion I disagree with.

Sure, and Alan Moore writing the Avengers with Jim Lee pencilling would be incredible, why not just get them? Oh that's right - they can't. Obviously Joe Q was referring to creative teams that are a) available and b) want the title. The writers mentioned in prior posts (Whedon, Millar, Gaiman) obviously have no interest in writing a second Avengers book or else they would be doing so.

If Bendis is selling over 200K copies of Avengers each month, and he wants to write a second Avengers book, why on earth would Marvel not let him do so? It would be moronic from a business/financial standpoint not to. The fact people are actually taking issue with that comment from Joe is amazing. He could say "we print our comics on paper" and there would be at least 4 people in these forums who would disagree with him.

[Dark Beast]

I prefer the human Beast but I would surely settle for the Ape Beast. I've been an X-Men collector for more than 20 years and the whole secondary mutation concept was awful. The cat Beast looks terrible. And Emma's diamond form nonsense also bugs me. A powerful telepath should have been good enough.
At least they retconned Emma's 'Diamond Form' secondary mutation so that it at least made some sense. Having Cassandra Nova be behind the alteration makes a lot more sense than just a sudden alteration of Emma's mutant gene that miraculously happens to be able to save her from death.

[Doc Rebel]

The apish Beast I've always liked best, it gives him an unique look! The feline version isn't, there're more than enough catpeople! The cat-Beast looks clumsy and is way too serious, his humor made him stand out between all the other serious science guys! I must say I like human-Beast too, but I prefer to see that Hank in flashback stories, I still miss John Byrne's X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS!

[Dark Beast]

The apish Beast I've always liked best, it gives him an unique look! The feline version isn't, there're more than enough catpeople! The cat-Beast looks clumsy and is way too serious, his humor made him stand out between all the other serious science guys! I must say I like human-Beast too, but I prefer to see that Hank in flashback stories, I still miss John Byrne's X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS!
Just remember, Human Beast will be seen in X-Men: First Class. ;)

Speaking of that... I really miss the original five back together again. Bobby and Hank are such good friends but they haven't been in the same book/on the same team for years now. Not to mention Warren hasn't been seen with any of them outside the occassional cameo. Plus Bobby helps Hank not be too overly serious, which is what Hank needs right now as well. Not to mention the 05 team is so much like a family, that hopefully the next time Jean comes back and the rosters are shuffled again... we'll get them in the same book again.

[Doowhaadiddy]

Actually, the Beast had his look first...so wouldn't Wolverine look like a flesh-colored Beast? I love the old loveable blue hairball....one of the best character designs and his first appearances after the change were some of the best written stories ion Marvel history. I can't stand the way the cat beast looks...it plays too much off the "beauty and the Beast" look of Ron Perelman from the old tv show.

Agreed! You are so right. And when did Grant Morrison say that Beast shouldn't look like a blue Wolverine? If he did, then should he noyt have gotten his X-Men history right before taking up the commissionon New X-Men? (which was great by the way)

[Dark Beast]

Agreed! You are so right. And when did Grant Morrison say that Beast shouldn't look like a blue Wolverine? If he did, then should he noyt have gotten his X-Men history right before taking up the commissionon New X-Men? (which was great by the way)
Well, if you read his run than it was clear he didn't have his X-Men history right. ;)

[motteditor]

Sure, and Alan Moore writing the Avengers with Jim Lee pencilling would be incredible, why not just get them? Oh that's right - they can't. Obviously Joe Q was referring to creative teams that are a) available and b) want the title. The writers mentioned in prior posts (Whedon, Millar, Gaiman) obviously have no interest in writing a second Avengers book or else they would be doing so.

I didn't mention Moore or Lee, did I. We have no idea if Whedon, Millar or Gaiman have interest in writing the title. My point is Marvel has other creators who can sell big numbers and may expand the fanbase beyond Bendis' fans. And I thought he was doing 100,000-something, not 200,000...

[caleb]

Agreed! You are so right. And when did Grant Morrison say that Beast shouldn't look like a blue Wolverine? If he did, then should he noyt have gotten his X-Men history right before taking up the commissionon New X-Men? (which was great by the way)

The same place he said it's stupid that Wolverine has a hat shaped like his hair. A newsarama.com interview.

[funjoe]

I didn't mention Moore or Lee, did I. We have no idea if Whedon, Millar or Gaiman have interest in writing the title. My point is Marvel has other creators who can sell big numbers and may expand the fanbase beyond Bendis' fans. And I thought he was doing 100,000-something, not 200,000...

Who besides Bendis do you think is currently available to write for Marvel, wants to write the Avengers, and can move 100,000+ copies a month (you're right, it's closer to 100K)? We can assume with reasonable probablility that Whedon doesn't have the time nor desire to write Avengers. Millar is leaving Ultimates and has said he's taking a break now to work on his creator owned titles (once his current Marvel series are completed), and I think we all know a main Avengers title is way down the list of things Gaiman wants to do (I would imagine it's not even on his list). Brubaker and Slott are great, but neither have shown an ability to move that many copies, Slott has trouble maintaining a monthly schedule on the titles he currently has, and Brubaker already has a full slate. loeb is writing Ultimates 3.
So given all that, who realistically would you suggest could write a second Avengers title and come close to what Bendis is doing now, sales-wise?

[Terram]

Oh yeah, and wing-tipped ape-beast is so craptacular, I hope we never get him back.

[ME5]

Hello.

To Bird Man Flu: I agree, Wolverine and Spiderman help NA sales stay above the 120 000 unit range. However, you are incorrect in assuming that the Avengers sold anywhere close to current levels prior to Bendis/Finch and the new line-up. Avengers prior to Bendis were languishing in the 50 000-60 000 sales unit range. Bendis and NA have not sold 1 issue less than 121 000 units, more than double previous sales levels of Avengers just before Bendis and the new line-up. People were getting tired, and wanted a change. Not all, since 50-60 000 were still buying the book. However, I know that more than double that number have been buying the book for 2 years, now. I also know that I, an Avengers fan of 30 years with issues in NM as early as #38 (I love Hercules,,,:)), am completely enjoying the NA...and will definitely look into the MA. So, no, not all true oldtime Avengers fans are turned off by NA and Bendis. Some of us are quite enjoying our Avengers, thank you very much.

Be Well...:)

[Terram]

Yeah, this "divide" is like The Continental US vs. Puerto Rico

[ME5]

Hello.

Oh, yeah...Ape Beast all the way. Morrison didn't understand the look of the character at all, and the cat look was one of the worst designs ever allowed by Marvel. I hope it gets retconned away like it deserves to be. Cat Beast...Feh!

Be Well...:)

[DeCrecenzo]

[QUOTE=Cyko]>RQ: “Corey291: - The Beast is just about my favorite Marvel character. Are there any plans to change Dr. McCoy back to his blue ape form?

JQ: That's a great question Corey291! At recent X-Men panels I've asked for a show of hands as to people's favorite versions of the beast. I have to honest, I'm an old school, flesh and blood, Hank McCoy fan myself. So, while there are no current plans to have the Beast revert in any way, what do you folks here on Newsarama think, what's your favorite version? <



Blue "ape" Beast
with a flesh and blood beast a close second.

[motteditor]

Who besides Bendis do you think is currently available to write for Marvel, wants to write the Avengers, and can move 100,000+ copies a month (you're right, it's closer to 100K)? We can assume with reasonable probablility that Whedon doesn't have the time nor desire to write Avengers. Millar is leaving Ultimates and has said he's taking a break now to work on his creator owned titles (once his current Marvel series are completed), and I think we all know a main Avengers title is way down the list of things Gaiman wants to do (I would imagine it's not even on his list). Brubaker and Slott are great, but neither have shown an ability to move that many copies, Slott has trouble maintaining a monthly schedule on the titles he currently has, and Brubaker already has a full slate. loeb is writing Ultimates 3.
So given all that, who realistically would you suggest could write a second Avengers title and come close to what Bendis is doing now, sales-wise?

Didn't realize Millar was taking a sort of leave of absence. Also, while I know Whedon's leaving Astonishing, I wouldn't be surprised if he picks up another titles. I agree Gaiman's probably not interested.

Considering Bru's just had another book announced, he's not a likely choice, though he might have been one of the names I listed (again, I don't pay that much attention to sales, but I assume his Uncanny is near 100,000. How do his DD numbers stack up with Bendis'?).

I suppose the main other person I'd consider would be JMS, though I'm a bit hesitant as I've read lots of criticism of his work (I don't read Spidey or FF, so I've had little experience with his Marvel work, though I liked B5 and Rising Stars). Other person I might consider is Vaughan. Hard to know what numbers he'd do with a more mainstream title with a stronger promotional push. After all, he does seem to have launched Marvel's first brand-new concept in ages with Runaways, which really is impressive. (I'd also mention YA, but it is based on another product, even if it's mostly new. Heinberg would be another option if he knew what a deadline was.)

Avengers prior to Bendis were languishing in the 50 000-60 000 sales unit range.

Yeah, but I'd argue it wasn't very good at the time either. Busiek had a great start, but unfortunately it got a bit bogged down in the Kang War. Then Johns' run is easily the worst thing I've read by him (culminating in that godawful fanfic-quality smut issue; hard to believe he's the same guy who really helped get me into DC). And then you had Austen, and that was just utter drek.

[Sesshomaru]

The day comics are all digital is the day i stop collecting comics.
Well i already collect digital comics asides from the books i buy ... and it irks me quite a lot that i gotta really on illegal mean to get those in a decent way , even thought i'm a legit customers .
I buy most of the stuff i dl , but i also love the idea of accessing huge collection with simple clicks and a decent storage mean .. and i have no qualms reading over a screen , nor trouble reading over my bed (Laptops and Tablet pc power!!) .
There is so far no real reason for the digital comics market to be so inexisting right now , beyond .. well greedy people...

All the media companies wants and would love to sell you any kind of digital content , but only at their terms (read with their own crappy and hard to deal with formats and players) , even when the universal means are widely used and more efficient (mp3... cbr and cbz files for comics , or even rar , pdf and zips) .
Finally the TV and music consortium are slowly getting more understanding .. but the comic world is light years further ...
To many fears of piracy that onyl further alienates potential customers , and actually drive them away to the alternative : piracy ....
What kind of nutjob believe that anyone wants to read a comics through some kind of flash and accessible online only , comic reader ?
Who would get a digital comics that cant be archived on dvds or any other storage , without many hassle ?

Its easy to claims that 30 years in the future everything will be digital , when it could have been already , at least paritally , and when the poeple supposedly studying the matter are doing an half assed job , and toying and expermenting around with already doomed to failure , digital comics experiences .

I can understand plenty people already disliking the idea of digital comics .. so its time to start luring people in with the only actual advantage of digital comics : the possibility to easily store a legaly obtained comics collection , sparing you the hassle of physical space , and/or as back up for paper collections .


Originally Posted by nietoperz
Not really all that divided?

How could it be that divided or divided at all ... when so far every of the most vocal anti new avengers people , are still buying the book and contributing to its wealth ?
Where are the flocks of old time fan leaving the book ? There are always once everywhile and pages claiming "i'm not buying the book" .. but how much do they actually weight opposed to the old fans liking NA , the new fans loving NA , the ones hating the book and still buying it every month so they could swear how awful it is...

So yeah kinda USA vs puerto rico so far :p

[Alextron]

How does the beast talk with that snout? That's impossible. He's the BEast not the family dog!

[khuxford]

Oh. Um. Hm. Well, uh, good luck getting your own comic book then. Oh look, there's SARS Man, I'm gonna go say hi...

LOL...now that is comedy :)

[Rubber Sled]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroesMask
"I prefer the human Beast but I would surely settle for the Ape Beast. I've been an X-Men collector for more than 20 years and the whole secondary mutation concept was awful. The cat Beast looks terrible. And Emma's diamond form nonsense also bugs me. A powerful telepath should have been good enough."



Everytime I hear the phrase "secondary mutation," I feel like cracking the internet in half...

[Wellness]

I prefer Cat-Beast.

But the thing I never really got about the Ape-Cat arguement is the 'Ape' form basically looks like a half arsed cat in most of his best renditions or a hlaf arsed blue Wolverine in another.

Seriously I could see people loving a human Beast, but the blue 'Ape' form is weak to me.

[funjoe]

[QUOTE=motteditor]Didn't realize Millar was taking a sort of leave of absence. Also, while I know Whedon's leaving Astonishing, I wouldn't be surprised if he picks up another titles. I agree Gaiman's probably not interested.

Considering Bru's just had another book announced, he's not a likely choice, though he might have been one of the names I listed (again, I don't pay that much attention to sales, but I assume his Uncanny is near 100,000. How do his DD numbers stack up with Bendis'?).

I suppose the main other person I'd consider would be JMS, though I'm a bit hesitant as I've read lots of criticism of his work (I don't read Spidey or FF, so I've had little experience with his Marvel work, though I liked B5 and Rising Stars). Other person I might consider is Vaughan. Hard to know what numbers he'd do with a more mainstream title with a stronger promotional push. After all, he does seem to have launched Marvel's first brand-new concept in ages with Runaways, which really is impressive. (I'd also mention YA, but it is based on another product, even if it's mostly new. Heinberg would be another option if he knew what a deadline was.)QUOTE]
Whedon's going to be too busy with his Buffy comic and the WW movie to do anything else for Marvel in the near future, I think. I absolutely would not want JMS to write the Avengers based on his recent non-Supreme Power books. BKV would be interesting, but he said in the interview Bendis conducted on the wizardworld.com site that he is not interested on working with company owned characters for a while (Runaways excepted). Anyway, like I said before I'm enjoying Bendis' current Avengers run but would still like to see someone else do a second book just so there is a different voice/style, but from Joe Q's standpoint if Bendis wants to do the second book he'd be a fool to say no.

Yeah, but I'd argue it wasn't very good at the time either. Busiek had a great start, but unfortunately it got a bit bogged down in the Kang War. Then Johns' run is easily the worst thing I've read by him (culminating in that godawful fanfic-quality smut issue; hard to believe he's the same guy who really helped get me into DC). And then you had Austen, and that was just utter drek.[/

Really? I lost interest in Busiek's run once he brought in Triathalon and Justice, but I thought Johns' Red Zone arc (and to a lesser extent Search for SHe-Hulk) was really well done. Did you not like anything Johns did with the team?

[Reebok]

Blue ape Beast all the way! That's right. I'm all about the old school. We want the blue fur-ball ape back. And while you're at it, bring back the original X-men/X-Factor team. Their chemestry was way too good to have let that gone by the way side. And what else....hmmmm...oh yeah, I want to see Walt Simonson do Thor again! Best Thor and Beta Ray Bill renditions, ever! Did I mention I want blue ape Beast?

[motteditor]

Really? I lost interest in Busiek's run once he brought in Triathalon and Justice

He brought in Justice in the first issue, didn't he? : )
It's funny; everyone seems to hate Triathlon, but I didn't mind him. If I were going to pick a nit with one of Busiek's new characters in his run, it'd be Silverclaw. To me, she's exactly the kind of character that kind of watered the Avengers down. The young hero angle just never worked for me in that title: Living Lightning, Deathcry, Silverclaw, Rage (though I loved him in the Warriors). The bitter hero didn't bother me, though I could see some complaining it was kind of a rehash of the Falcon story years and years earlier.

but I thought Johns' Red Zone arc (and to a lesser extent Search for SHe-Hulk) was really well done. Did you not like anything Johns did with the team?

It wasn't so much that I disliked it as I just thought it was very forgettable. I really have to struggle to remember all the details of those stories and I probably couldn't name his entire lineup -- I know he used Ant-Man and Jack of Hearts but the rest of the specifics? Just didn't stick with me. And that Hank Pym/Wasp scene was just really unnecessary, I thought.

In comparison, I was buying I think only one DC title when I first read JSA (Legion, though maybe I'd started getting Birds of Prey by then) and I just absolutely loved it. I ended up buying all the trades and I've read them a ton of times. I don't know why, but I just felt like it had a completely different tone and worked so much better.

[BOP Fan]

You're not, I loved the Avengers since the Perez run in the 70s, and I am very much enjoying the New Avengers with Bendis as well. At the same time, I must say I was hoping a second Avengers title would have a different writer on it, just for a change of pace if nothing else. Are there any other examples of multiple books about the same character(s) written by the same writer?


I believe they tried it with Howard Mackie on Spider-Man during the great reboot of 1999. It didn't work very well.


Best wishes,

Scott

[JohnLynch]

Quote:
Everytime I hear the phrase "secondary mutation," I feel like cracking the internet in half...Secondary mutation? What the ____ are they? Mutants or pokemon?

[Terram]

The first Secondary Mutation was of course, Jean Grey and her access to the Phoenix Force.

This is actually Beast's Trinary Mutation, the second being Human Beast to Ape Beast.

[JohnLynch]

Are there any other examples of multiple books about the same character(s) written by the same writer?For a long while Chris Claremont wrote New Mutants and Uncanny X-Men at the same time, although at one point he was writing Wolverine, Uncanny X-Men and Excalibur simultaneously.

[beta-ray]

MY goodness, Quesada comes a cross as more smug every week. /B]

Not really all that divided? :rolleyes:

Nah it's just you.

[beta-ray]

Oh, and I vote, damn fithy ape!!! :D

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/97452433904.33.gif

(maybe even his gray form)

[Dark Beast]

Oh, and I vote, damn fithy ape!!! :D

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/97452433904.33.gif

(maybe even his gray form)
Nah, leave gray for Dark Beast. Keeps him somewhat distinct. :)

[WTF?]

Blue "ape" Beast
with a flesh and blood beast a close second.

I prefer flesh and blood Beast, particularly when he was in X-Factor, he was really cool back then, knew how to have fun. His friendship with Iceman was very entertaining back then too.
I think having him human but allowing him to tranform into Beast at will is the way to go. Transforming his state of mind after changing could spice things up too, smart to primal.
Make it so.

[anya]

I vote ape Beast, but they can change his 'Wolverine' hair, because it does look silly, even on Wovlerine.

Did anyone else think Wanda looked like a pink Playboy bunny in that picture? I know that's her 'traditional' outfit, but still...

[Sesshomaru]

He brought in Justice in the first issue, didn't he? : )
It's funny; everyone seems to hate Triathlon, but I didn't mind him. If I were going to pick a nit with one of Busiek's new characters in his run, it'd be Silverclaw. To me, she's exactly the kind of character that kind of watered the Avengers down. The young hero angle just never worked for me in that title: Living Lightning, Deathcry, Silverclaw, Rage (though I loved him in the Warriors). The bitter hero didn't bother me, though I could see some complaining it was kind of a rehash of the Falcon story years and years earlier.


Well in my case , i equally hate Triathlon , Silverclaw and Justice , so his ideas were kinda doomed with me . I also didnt think much of his plots and use of foes like Le Fey , and the whole Church thing . I found those quite boring , and it often sounded to me , as if he was trying too hard to recapture the older avengers feel . Sure it had gone away a bit , with all those crossovers in the late 90s , but i never really missed , it wasnt so long ago , and i didnt see Busiek's point into trying to do the same stuff again , when i could just read the older issues .
His only stuff i loved on that run was the Kang arc

now Johns run , i found awesome , and was quite angry to see him go and get replaced by austen .Its also no secret that i found Disassembled enjoyable despite some really annoying flaws , and that i love New Avengers so far .

[Jon Yeager]

Why is Brevoort cranky? The man probably has the most cushy job in the industry; or, at least, I assume that's the case since Tom spends most of his time on the internet taking on all comers (from Newsarama Blog posts to hunting down stray comments by Bob Layton). Yeah...Civil War has kept Brevoort *real* busy. :rolleyes:

Brevoort has always been a tough guy when it comes to industry-biased moderated message boards. Over on rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe (RACMU), where no such protection exists, Brevoort was told exactly what people thought of Avengers Disassembled, and it wasn't pretty... and he hasn't shown his face there since.

Let's just say Tom picks his arenas very carefully. Newsarama's a great site, but I can't even make a joke about Quesada's infatuation with all things Hollywood without Matt slapping my wrist.

So yeah, guys like Brevoort LOVE taking on all comers in places like THIS.

Jon

[Dark Beast]

I prefer flesh and blood Beast, particularly when he was in X-Factor, he was really cool back then, knew how to have fun. His friendship with Iceman was very entertaining back then too.
I think having him human but allowing him to tranform into Beast at will is the way to go. Transforming his state of mind after changing could spice things up too, smart to primal.
Make it so.
No, no more 'Were/Shifter' characters. Part of the whole aspect of Beast that works is that he's a beastial animal man, but yet is this incredibly verbose, charming, romantic, and well-spoken intelligent human being. If he can change between human and animal at will, then you steal part of what makes him interesting. The whole dichotomy between the man and beast.

[SmileOnADog]

No, no more 'Were/Shifter' characters. Part of the whole aspect of Beast that works is that he's a beastial animal man, but yet is this incredibly verbose, charming, romantic, and well-spoken intelligent human being. If he can change between human and animal at will, then you steal part of what makes him interesting. The whole dichotomy between the man and beast.

Well said. I loved that most about Hank as well. Something that came out quite well in X-Men 3. (The main problem with Beast is that his classic blue look is similar to Nightcrawler and with a hair-do that is similar to Wolverine. I liked the cat-beast look for that reason, it made him different.) I'll love the character in any form- human with big hands and feet, ape or cat. Just don't change the dichotomy.

[ProNamor]

I myself prefer Cat-Beast over ape-beast. Especially when drawn by Cassaday. The whole danger arc portrayed him well...like when he made the perfect question (cutting off Cyclops at the same time) it was a cool small detail that showed that he is the smartest of the X-Men. And I loved the moment in when he says "Mine".

[Zeitgeist]

Cat Beast is thest Best thing to Ever happen to the character

[Zeitgeist]

Why is Brevoort cranky? The man probably has the most cushy job in the industry; or, at least, I assume that's the case since Tom spends most of his time on the internet taking on all comers (from Newsarama Blog posts to hunting down stray comments by Bob Layton). Yeah...Civil War has kept Brevoort *real* busy. :rolleyes:

I assume you have some kind of evidence for that, or are you just making stuff up to troll?

[Goodhomerjay]

How long will it take before we see Elektra again? Will she appear during the Civil War event, or shortly after it? Thanks...

Plus another vote for ape-Beast!

[ME5]

Hello.

To motteditor and Sesshomaru: You guys really don't like Justice as an Avenger? Please, say it ain't so! I thought he was a perfect young Cap or Cyclops (or even Nightwing) type of character who would be able to grow into a role as a great leader. I always wanted to see him graduate from the New Warriors to the Avengers, and looked forward (still hoping) to seeing him one day lead the Avengers. I hope for the same thing with Dick and the JLA, too, to be honest. I really like Justice's character and powers, and love his relationship with Firestar. I have to disagree with you guys 100%, and say I LOVE JUSTICE as an AVENGER!!!!! Disagree, and we go to war :mad: :mad: :mad: lol.

Be Well...:)

[WTF?]

If he can change between human and animal at will, then you steal part of what makes him interesting. The whole dichotomy between the man and beast.

I disagree, I don't think it would diminish the character in any way, in fact it would make him more interesting for a time. He wasn't always covered in blue fur and giving him a choice for a while could allow the character to grow. In case you can't tell, I've never been a fan of the hanging upside down reading books, quoting peotry, stuck in the lab all day Beast. Boring. He used to be a lot more adventurous and fun.

[motteditor]

To motteditor and Sesshomaru: You guys really don't like Justice as an Avenger? Please, say it ain't so! I thought he was a perfect young Cap or Cyclops (or even Nightwing) type of character who would be able to grow into a role as a great leader. I always wanted to see him graduate from the New Warriors to the Avengers, and looked forward (still hoping) to seeing him one day lead the Avengers. I hope for the same thing with Dick and the JLA, too, to be honest. I really like Justice's character and powers, and love his relationship with Firestar. I have to disagree with you guys 100%, and say I LOVE JUSTICE as an AVENGER!!!!!

I had no problems with Justice as an Avenger. I know some Warriors fans were angry that Busiek had him looking like a bit of a putz but I thought it worked the way it was handled (unlike, say, when they tried the same basic story when they stuck Cannonball in the X-Men).

That said, I don't think he had the same Avengers feel as the big guns and he would have had to continue to show up in the title in various roles over the years for that to really happen, I think. Maybe if more had been made of his role as a spy in the Triune Understanding? I guess I'd have to say that I thought Firestar worked a bit better in the book, if only because her story was a bit more positive as she came to love being on the team and improved herself, instead of having to get back to what he once was.

You know they broke up, right? Personally, I'm just hoping they're in something (the New Warriors revamp I'm expecting?) after Civil War so we can continue to see their characters grow and react to their breakup and what happened to their team (both the Warriors and the Avengers, for that matter).

[Alan Coil]

Hey, Joe, where's the next issue of Daredevil Father?

[paulski]

RQ: “motteditor” - As a longtime fan of the Avengers -- and a fairly vocal opponent of Bendis' version of the series -- why should I have any reason to look forward to Mighty Avengers? Obviously New Avengers is selling well, but just as obviously there's a segment of the audience that doesn't like it -- why not launch the new book with someone who's not as polarizing?

JQ: Motteditor, I get it, you don't like Bendis, that's cool, you've made it pretty clear across the 'net that you feel that way. That said, New Avengers under Bendis is arguably the best selling comic in the entire industry. So, while fandom is divided on almost every single thing done by every single publisher, judging by the popularity of New Avengers, they're not really all that divided on this issue. And yes, while we could launch a second Avengers title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis and Frank Cho.
Un. Believable.

He just doesn't get it, does he? That there are actually comic readers on the planet who would pick up an Avengers book if it wasn't written by Bendis. Or more importantly, wouldn't pick it up unless it wasn't written by him.

[JohnLynch]

That there are actually comic readers on the planet who would pick up an Avengers book if it wasn't written by Bendis. Or more importantly, wouldn't pick it up unless it wasn't written by him.Yes and as this poll (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?p=2309804) and New Avengers' sales indicate, they're in the minority. Why should Marvel cater to a minority when they can use those same resources to cater to a majority?

[Terram]

Oh, Quesada gets it.

[johnny99]

RQ: “czhorse” - Magneto is one of the few characters whose origins are tied to historical events. Since we're now going on 70 years since the Holocaust, it is increasingly difficult to think of Erik as both a Holocaust survivor and an able-bodied, physically capable character. Has there ever been any thought given to either changing his origins (though its hard to imagine an equally effective alternative) or tweaking his powers to explain his longevity?

JQ: Hey, czhorse, for a question such as this, I like to go to our resident expert on all things X-Men, X-Men Senior Editor, Mike Marts.

Mike Marts: Okay, czhorse, ready for this? What few people know is that once upon a time, Magneto genetically engineered a being called Alpha the Ultimate Mutant, who eventually fought against his creator and turned him into a baby. Charles Xavier’s colleague Moira MacTaggert cared for the infant Magneto for a while, until the Shi’Ar agent Eric the Red transformed Magneto back into an adult, but as a younger man than he was before. Thus the reason why Magneto appears younger than he actually is!

"what few people know"? dude, not for nothing, but this was explained - a second time - during XMEN # 1 AND 2 which sold HOW MANY MULTIPLE MILLION copies? this poster may not have known, but certainly why would a senior editor think that "few people" would know?

Better question is if he did live through the holocaust and still was Xaviers friend in "post college" years, how is _Xavier_ still holding up? Maybe getting some Shi'Ar poonanni keeps you young and fit.


My apologies if someone else already pointed this out, but Xavier received a younger, fitter clone body after the X-Men's first encounter with the brood (during Paul Smith's run as X-artist supreme). Thus, he also has a viable excuse for appearing as young as he does.

[motteditor]

Yes and as this poll (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?p=2309804) and New Avengers' sales indicate, they're in the minority. Why should Marvel cater to a minority when they can use those same resources to cater to a majority?

Because that poll is hardly scientific.

And it comes down to long-term thinking. Why should Marvel think any of these readers will stick with the book when Bendis, Wolverine and Spider-Man leave the title. By double-dipping, you just have two titles that are going to tank when the writer leaves. Having someone else do it would bring on different fans (or older fans who won't read Bendis' butchering of the team).

Maybe it wouldn't sell as well, but I'd say that just proves my point. These people who are picking up Bendis' book aren't Avengers fans. If Marvel can't parlay Bendis' unarguable sales success into making a spinoff title also successful even if he's not writing it, they're failing miserably.

[JohnLynch]

Because that poll is hardly scientific.Which is why I'm not using it alone. If you've got some equal or better indicator(s) to disprove my point I'd be happy to see them.

Why should Marvel think any of these readers will stick with the book when Bendis, Wolverine and Spider-Man leave the title.Why would they think the readers would leave? They may or may not leave. It can only be known when it happens.

By double-dipping, you just have two titles that are going to tank when the writer leaves.Why would both fail when the writer leaves? It's quite possible (perhaps even likely) that they'll bring in someone who has a style similar to Bendis'.

These people who are picking up Bendis' book aren't Avengers fans.Incorrect. There are Avengers fans who do pick up NA here at newsarama alone.

If Marvel can't parlay Bendis' unarguable sales success into making a spinoff title also successful even if he's not writing it, they're failing miserably.That assumes a desire to do so at this time. It's quite possible that no-one has suggested any Avengers spin-offs that were of a high enough quality until Bendis proposed Mighty Avengers.

This is much like complaining about Claremont's run on X-Men. At one point he was the only writer writing X-books (when Uncanny X-Men and New Mutants were the only X-books being published). One could argue with as much validity that when Claremont left the X-books they would fail. However that clearly did not happen. This doesn't mean that Avengers will be popular when Bendis leaves. All it means is that you cannot claim (with any credibility) its popularity will drop when he leaves.

[Terram]

Incorrect. There are Avengers fans who do pick up NA here at newsarama alone.
Indeed, over half of the New Avengers readers of Newsarama are holdovers the previous Avengers.

And wait, did I just hear that the only way of preventing sales from tanking after Bendis stops writing the Avengers... is by having Bendis stop writing the Avengers??

[paulski]

Yes and as this poll (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?p=2309804) and New Avengers' sales indicate, they're in the minority. Why should Marvel cater to a minority when they can use those same resources to cater to a majority?
Oh, absolutely they're in the minority. I agree. But I'll bet there's a fair chunk of NA readers (that are old Avengers buyers) who are sick to death of what's gone on in the title so far. I know I am - given the toys he had to play with, it's been a huge disappointment. But I'm too stubborn to drop it due to my fondness for how the book used to be in the good old days (and in the hope it might get better). I'd say if the art hadn't been so good (for the most part), I'd have dumped it by now.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating that the new Mighty Avengers book is written in 'ye olde style' like some are. I just want a different writer on it. I don't like what Bendis has done with NA and can't see how it'll be any different with MA.

[JohnLynch]

But I'll bet there's a fair chunk of NA readers (that are old Avengers buyers) who are sick to death of what's gone on in the title so far. I know I am - given the toys he had to play with, it's been a huge disappointment. But I'm too stubborn to drop it due to my fondness for how the book used to be in the good old days (and in the hope it might get better).Marvel has no motivation to cater to people such as yourself while you continue to pay for New Avengers.

[ME5]

Hello.

To motteditor: I hate to do this, but I have to take you to task for your contention that people buying NA aren't Avengers fans. I have collected, enjoyed, discussed, and debated the Avengers since 1976! I am a huge Avengers fans, have loved many of their different incarnations, and read the book without presuming to tell others that what they are reading isn't the 'real" Avengers just because Dr. Druid is in the line-up.

This group of Avengers DOES follow in the tradition of the Avengers. It has something old (IM and Cap), something familiar but relatively new (Wolverine, Cage, Spiderman), something completely new (Ronin and Sentry), and a hothead to argue with Cap (Wolverine). This IS the Avengers, and the line-up can match up with most others that have TRADITIONALLY existed. Don't forget the "Mighty Avengers" once consisted of Wanda, Cap, Quicksilver, and Hawkeye. Yeah, that was the "mightiest" team on earth...:rolleyes: Heck, there have been plenty of times where the X-Men were actually the Mightiest team on earth.

Bendis has made some errors, but not as many as you claim. He is not the best, nor the worst Avengers writer. If you don't like him on Avengers, great, good for you, thanks for sharing. We all get it. However, stop insulting those of us who ARE Avengers fans who DO like NA. It is getting annoying.

Be Well...:)

[motteditor]

To motteditor: I hate to do this, but I have to take you to task for your contention that people buying NA aren't Avengers fans. I have collected, enjoyed, discussed, and debated the Avengers since 1976! I am a huge Avengers fans, have loved many of their different incarnations, and read the book without presuming to tell others that what they are reading isn't the 'real" Avengers just because Dr. Druid is in the line-up.


Sorry, you misunderstood me. I'm saying many of the new readers -- the ones bumping this series into the top 5 -- likely aren't Avengers readers. They're following Bendis, Spider-Man and Wolverine. Obviously some Avengers readers continued to pick up the title.

This group of Avengers DOES follow in the tradition of the Avengers. It has something old (IM and Cap), something familiar but relatively new (Wolverine, Cage, Spiderman), something completely new (Ronin and Sentry), and a hothead to argue with Cap (Wolverine). This IS the Avengers, and the line-up can match up with most others that have TRADITIONALLY existed. Don't forget the "Mighty Avengers" once consisted of Wanda, Cap, Quicksilver, and Hawkeye. Yeah, that was the "mightiest" team on earth...:rolleyes: Heck, there have been plenty of times where the X-Men were actually the Mightiest team on earth.


And as we discussed before, I disagree. The Avengers were adamantly opposed to killing, to the point the group had a schism over "killing" an AI. This group has people brought on to kill. And while you may not consider Wolverine a killer, per se, there's no doubt he was brought on to kill, per Bendis' dialogue.

As for "mightiest," that's not the point. The Avengers weren't the JLA, with the most powerful heroes on Earth. They were more than the sum of their parts -- united to fight the threat that no single hero could stand against. That's why Hawkeye, while nowhere near as powerful as a ton of Marvel characters (though neither were Beast, Mockingbird, Tigra, Black Widow, Black Panther...), was an essential Avenger. On his own, he probably would have trouble with many of the threats the Avengers defeated. But united with his teammates, he was able to help defeat them.

[ME5]

Hello.

To motteditor:

1--Misunderstanding clarified...:)

2--Actually, you HAVE argued that this batch of Avengers is not qualified because it isn't "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", which is why I tried to show you where you were wrong with that point in this and other threads.

Too many people who should never have been Avengers were brought onto the team by writers. Characters like Rage (who was a great New Warrior, but lousy Avenger), Living Lightning, Deathcry were far from Earth's Mightiest Heroes and din't really fit with the tone. The book shouldn't really be about training new heroes; these are supposed to be Earth's best, united to stop the threat no single hero can stand against

You see, this quote is why I brought up the fact that the Avengers is NOT always about the best or mightiest heroes. There have been more teams where the Avengers were far from the mightiest heroes, than the other way around. Nice to see that you now agree with my previous point...:D

3--Wolverine was brought onto the team because he COULD kill IF necessary in a situation where the other Avengers might be unable or unwilling to do so. This is a different era than when you and I first started reading Avengers, and there are different realities that the heroes must face. The team OBVIOUSLY and DEMONSTRABLY did NOT bring Wolverine on board to kill pell mell because Cap stops him from (allegedly) killing the female SHIELD agent in issue #6. If Cap and the Avengers were suddenly all for killing, then Cap would NOT have exposed himself in combat by using his shield to stop Wolverine. You are taking one simplistic aspect of Wolverine and using it to paint the entire current NA team as killers or harborers of killers, and it is so out of line as to be ignorant. You obviously don't know a whole lot about Wolverine as a character (and admitted as much in previous posts) but still make the fact that he is some kind of killer central to your theme in calling this team of Avengers "killers". It is a straw man argument, holds no weight, and does not in and of itself disqualify this team from being regarded as Avengers. He was brought on as a contingency, not as a loaded gun aimed at everyone. Go back and read the Galactic Storm saga and see how many times the Avengers compromised their charter in regards to not killing sentients. If it is absolutely necessary, the Avengers HAVE done things in the past contrary to their charter. Just having Wolverine on the team is not contrary to the charter because he is an acknowledged hero who has saved the world as often as any other hero ever to be on the Avengers...if not more often than most of them, in actuality!

Be Well...:)

[paulski]

Marvel has no motivation to cater to people such as yourself while you continue to pay for New Avengers.
Unfortunately, you are most likely correct. :(

[motteditor]

2--Actually, you HAVE argued that this batch of Avengers is not qualified because it isn't "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", which is why I tried to show you where you were wrong with that point in this and other threads.

You see, this quote is why I brought up the fact that the Avengers is NOT always about the best or mightiest heroes. There have been more teams where the Avengers were far from the mightiest heroes, than the other way around. Nice to see that you now agree with my previous point...:D


Nowhere in that quote did I say anything about power levels. I said (though admittedly not clearly) that I didn't think they fit the tone of the book. It wasn't that they were too powerful (when you could argue that any of them, maybe except Deathcry, have more raw power than Clint), but rather they weren't the type of heroes who belonged.

Rage is one of my favorite characters. I think he was fantastic in New Warriors and I love his big issues and little moments in that series. He was a godawful Avenger during one of the book's most fallow periods. It's not a matter of being a good character or not, but rather fitting with the tone.

As for a redo of our Wolverine discussion, I'll take a closer look and respond when I have a bit more time.

[JohnLynch]

The Avengers were adamantly opposed to killingBut not always, as shown by Captain America wanting to kill someone in Avengers v1 #10. So clearly it was an ideal that grew up over time.

[Arsenal3]

But not always, as shown by Captain America wanting to kill someone in Avengers v1 #10. So clearly it was an ideal that grew up over time.

Yes, that's very true. But that was shortly after Cap woke from suspended animation, prior to which he'd been fighting as a soldier in WWII. Since then, it's been clearly established that Cap -- and the Avengers -- weigh heavily on the side of not killing.

I can't remember the exact issue, but it was during Mark Gruenwald's marathon run on Captain America. Cap ended up in a situation where he had no choice but to kill someone to save a life. The guilt, remorse, and regret that Cap felt -- even when he had no other choice -- was a recurring theme in the book for quite a while afterward.

Operation Galactic Storm was another story where the issue came up. Part of the team decided that there was no other course of action but to kill the Supreme Intelligence. It created a huge rift, and I believe resulted in Captain America quitting the team for a time.

Hawkeye and Mockingbird almost split over the murder issue. And she didn't actually kill anyone... she just didn't save someone when she had the chance.

Mott could probably rattle off half a dozen more stories from 1965 to present that clearly show the "Avengers don't kill" side, but I think you get the point.

That being said, I think that Wolverine being added to the team was not purely because he would kill people. Cap and Wolverine have worked together enough over the years, and know each other well enough. Wolverine is usually portrayed as someone who will kill if he has to, but doesn't use killing as the first and only option.

I think that Iron Man sees the Avengers code against killing like the U.S. Government's stance on torture. Officially, it's banned. Still, a lot of people believe that it's still acceptible under extreme circumstances, or as a last-resort. That it's a grey area in certain circumstances, and that the team needs a member who's willing to operate in those grey areas.

When Wanda (in continuity and logic-defying manner) went crazy and caused the whole Marvel Universe to Jump the Shark, none of the Avengers would've been able to pull the trigger if it came down to it. Captain America, Hawkeye, Wasp... even Iron Man, wouldn't have had the heart to kill a friend, even to save the world.

I think that's what Iron Man was getting at when he convinced Cap that the team needed someone like Wolverine. Someone who'd "go there." Someone to make the tough call and do the dirty work, allowing the rest to take the moral high ground.

I don't agree with it, and think it's out of character. I still disagree with Wolverine being an Avenger. But I think I understand the case that Bendis was trying to make to get Wolverine on the team.

[JohnLynch]

Since then, it's been clearly established that Cap -- and the Avengers -- weigh heavily on the side of not killing.Until he changed his mind again at the beginning of Captain America v5. And Iron Man also had to kill at the beginning of Iron Man v4 (although he didn't want to).

The point to this is that the Avengers haven't always considered killing the greatest evil that no hero does. And in more recent time between Avengers Disassembled and New Avengers Iron Man and Captain America actually killed people. They may not like it, but in recent times (outside of Bendis' work) they've deliberately done so. So it doesn't seem completely out of character that they would say today "y'know, perhaps we need someone who can do it for us, when we can't bring ourselves to."

[paulski]

I can't remember the exact issue, but it was during Mark Gruenwald's marathon run on Captain America. Cap ended up in a situation where he had no choice but to kill someone to save a life. The guilt, remorse, and regret that Cap felt -- even when he had no other choice -- was a recurring theme in the book for quite a while afterward.
Cap #321. Damn me and my memory for 80's Marvel comics... ;)

[Arsenal3]

Until he changed his mind again at the beginning of Captain America v5. And Iron Man also had to kill at the beginning of Iron Man v4 (although he didn't want to).

The point to this is that the Avengers haven't always considered killing the greatest evil that no hero does. And in more recent time between Avengers Disassembled and New Avengers Iron Man and Captain America actually killed people. They may not like it, but in recent times (outside of Bendis' work) they've deliberately done so. So it doesn't seem completely out of character that they would say today "y'know, perhaps we need someone who can do it for us, when we can't bring ourselves to."

You know, I think that's where the core of the debate lies. Starting with Disassembled, most of the Avengers started acting in ways that seem wildly out of character. Personally, I have a hard time saying, "well, Cap did it last month in his own series, so I guess that's how it's always been with him."

I've always felt that the Avengers answered to a higher heroic ideal. That's one of the reasons I latched on to the Avengers characters rather than Wolverine, or Spawn, or the Punisher. Yes, they were conflicted. Yes, they faced moral dilemmas. But ultimately, they always ended up finding a better way. Over the last few years, it seems that Marvel has decided to take the core values of their mainstay characters, and throw them out the window.

[JohnLynch]

Personally, I have a hard time saying, "well, Cap did it last month in his own series, so I guess that's how it's always been with him."Lucky for you, no-one's said that.