Didio's NIGHTWING comments.....the change? [Archive]

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lewzzer1

06-03-2006, 05:15 PM

to recap: It was again explained that Nightwing was originally intended to die in Infinite Crisis, and that you can see the arc that was supposed to end with his death in the series. After long discussions, the death edict was reversed, but the decision was made that, if they're keeping him, he would have to be changed. The next arc of the ongoing series will further explain the changes, it was said.

After he lived thru IC, I thought it was just a big tease that they were going to kill him, didnt actually think he was planned to die. It would be nice if they released un-used scripts or some altnerate scene/endings ideas. Someone should have asked why they decided to let him live! So to keep him, he has to be changed. Changed? let the discussion of these "changes" begin...

I'll start...He can be changed by putting a new writer on his book. next...

theblindparrot

06-03-2006, 05:17 PM

They should have killed him with the marriage proposal to Oracle left hanging.

God-Man

06-03-2006, 05:18 PM

He can be changed by being turned into a villian

biffordmichael

06-03-2006, 05:20 PM

to recap: It was again explained that Nightwing was originally intended to die in Infinite Crisis, and that you can see the arc that was supposed to end with his death in the series. After long discussions, the death edict was reversed, but the decision was made that, if they're keeping him, he would have to be changed. The next arc of the ongoing series will further explain the changes, it was said.

I was certain that it was Dick headed for Conner's spot on the ground for the longest time and that Superboy lawsuit was the reason things changed at the last minute...

Currently still pissed off that Superboy is out of the picture and currently hating the current Nightwing series more than I hated the Devon Grayson run...

Biff

Cyphon

06-03-2006, 05:54 PM

sd2416

06-03-2006, 05:57 PM

where was this originally stated that Dick was supposed to die? I missed this.
I would have liked to have known how and seen the repercussions with Batman.

Punchy

06-03-2006, 06:01 PM

So, it looks IC wasn't fully planned out like they said it was.

brownhornet

06-03-2006, 06:03 PM

where was this originally stated that Dick was supposed to die? I missed this.
I would have liked to have known how and seen the repercussions with Batman.

Agreed it would have made Batman an even darker knight J.T. then D.G. it would suck to be the bat.

I like NW a little bit more then Con (well before this crappy run), but better Con then NW you all know that Con is coming back!

biffordmichael

06-03-2006, 06:22 PM

I wonder if the generally accepted crapiness of Nightwing with Bruce Jones is the result of trying to slap something together quickly when they decided that Nightwing wouldn't be killed. Cuz that would explain a lot of things about it.

Agreed, I wonder if the plan was to put Jason Todd in the Nightwing costume to keep the character alive and this two Nightwings bit is the end result of combining that idea with keeping Dick alive?

That also would explain the only lame part of 52 which for me is the Cult Of Superboy bits. If Conner was suppossed to live that plot would have been thrown together quickly as it seems was the Bruce Jones Nightwing debacle.

Biff

Regulator

06-03-2006, 07:32 PM

So, it looks IC wasn't fully planned out like they said it was.

Because they're not allowed to change one component of it?

ElijahSnowFan

06-03-2006, 07:37 PM

...about stopping reading comics if DC had killed Dick Grayson, but i will say this:

if they had killed him, i can honestly say that no character i've seen killed in 25 years of reading would have had worse treatment, with regard to history, competence and simply sub-standard tales for the previous few years prior to his death.

killing Dick Grayson then or now -- it's almost too easy. the character's been so poorly written over the last four years, i don't even know that you could write a death scene that resonates, because he's been so incompetent that it wouldn't even be a surprise that he's dead.

would that make my rage, as a longtime fan of the character, any less? nah, i'd be REALLY, REALLY MAD.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

but i also know this: killing off Dick Grayson in order to tell more stories about Jason Todd would not only have made me nauseous, i would've been praying for the day Superboy Prime escaped so he could reboot the universe and make sure Grayson was resurrected.

because maybe if DC stopped trying to shove Jason Todd down everybody's throats and devoted some energy into making Dick Grayson competent, then maybe they'd have a character who wouldn't be worth killing.

MadDog1981

06-03-2006, 07:47 PM

I have an honest question for you guys. Why does DC hate Dick Grayson? I've never seen a character constantly crapped on like he's been.

Ben Strasser

06-03-2006, 07:52 PM

Robin/Tim Drake is the only safe member of the bat family. I'm guessing they want to keep that name alive, because of its higher mainstream profile. Other than him though, it doesn't pay to be Batgirl, Nightwing or any other supporting hero in the Bat titles.

Clem

06-03-2006, 07:55 PM

Everything about Infinite Crisis 7 made it look like he DID die. He dived infront of Alex Luthor's blast aimed at Batman, then we get a big panel of Dick being hit in a purple ray, then him lying motionless on the floor with characters rushing to his side.

If it wasnt for that one panel at the end on the boat, we'd have thought he was dead.

There was also that panel in the first week of 52 where he turned up at the memorial when he was supposed to be on a boat with Bruce sailing round the world. And DC said we were SUPPOSED to notice.

Plus we get Geoff Johns saying he'd love to write Nightwing.

Heres hoping for a relaunched Nightwing ongoing with Geoff writing.

ElijahSnowFan

06-03-2006, 07:58 PM

I have an honest question for you guys. Why does DC hate Dick Grayson? I've never seen a character constantly crapped on like he's been.

...and i swear, i can never come up with an answer that makes any sense.

the second generation heroes -- the Roy Harpers, Donna Troys, Garth (Aqualad), Dick Graysons -- i swear, those characters NEVER get any long-term respect.

the only reason Wally West was allowed to stay Flash, in my opinion, is because Barry Allen was so freaking dead, it would've been almost impossible to resurrect him and move Wally aside -- Wally HAD to become competent, because there wasn't another male speedster in that age range who had any history whatsover who could've become the Flash.

i understand that Batman's going to always be Bruce Wayne (and i'm in favor of that, BTW), but does that automatically mean that Dick Grayson can't carve his own competent niche in the DC Universe? or Roy Harper?

i swear, i just don't get it, either.

JacktheKnife

06-03-2006, 08:01 PM

Reading his book now.

As much as I love Nightwing. I kinda wish they had just killed him in IC. At least then they couldn't screw him up anymore.

MadDog1981

06-03-2006, 08:30 PM

I don't think he should be Batman either. He's developed his own identity. But why is he treated like a loser over and over again? He's one of the longest standing characters in the DCU and he trained under freaking Batman since he was a kid. It's just insane to me that they wanted to kill him so they could replace him with a character that the fans hated so much that they voted to kill him. Why isn't he on the JLA but instead hanging out with a C level team? Why are people who looked up to him and were led by him on the Titans going to get a shot in the big leagues before him.

On the same note what's the sudden obsession with Jason Todd?

Skyrider

06-03-2006, 08:42 PM

Did I miss something here?

So, it looks IC wasn't fully planned out like they said it was.

Considering how Nightwing OYL started in March and IC ended in May, I have no clue how you can come to that conclusion. Obviously it would have had to be planned out or else there would not have even been a OYL Nightwing book at all. Also, everything didio has said points to DC having a very clear idea of where they want Dick Grayson to go OYL.

All Didio said was that at one point in time, Nightwing was supposed to die at the end of IC. We do not know when this point was, or in what stage of planning this was on the map. At one point, Kal-L wasn't even going to be in the story. The entire storyline of Infinitie Crisis grew and changed as it was being put together. I don't see this as "proof" that IC wasn't "fully planned out like they said it was".

PablotheHam

06-03-2006, 10:23 PM

Dick has always played lieutenant to Bruce's general somewhat, so I'd imagine this is the thing DC is trying to move away from. With two Nightwings already and potentially another appearing soon if you put faith in cover art, its possible that Nightwing might turn into a team book, with Dick taking the general rank. It could be cool if it were done right, but I'm fairly certain that most fans wouldn't give it a chance.

Unlike most, I'm still fairly interested in where this is going, so I hope it will go well.

Skyrider

06-03-2006, 10:25 PM

V0id Indigo

06-03-2006, 10:27 PM

I think this first arc is supposed to be about what Nightwing is to Dick. A sort of "identity" tale. How well it's being executed however is much debated.

but the fact is the sales have gone UP and staying stable..despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth

Eison

06-04-2006, 02:27 AM

I said in another thread that at this point it might have been better if they did kill him, and I say that as a lifelong fan of Dick Grayson. But I never thought it was a case of him OR Conner, I think they just pulled Wing back but that SB was going to bite it no matter what.

As far as changes go, I'd love to see him return to sort of a mix between Spiderman and Batman that he was for me for so many years. But I am not sure DC wants that.

RaoulDuke

06-04-2006, 02:36 AM

I was certain that it was Dick headed for Conner's spot on the ground for the longest time and that Superboy lawsuit was the reason things changed at the last minute...

Currently still pissed off that Superboy is out of the picture and currently hating the current Nightwing series more than I hated the Devin Grayson run...

Biff

Whoa....big call Biff.

Inanimate

06-04-2006, 03:08 AM

Yeah I think it was a originally planned as a twofer big death ending, I'd see the reason we have all the art/dialogue that appears to have him Dying is because that it was decided to be easier to keep the work laid and nudge the moment back rather then completely rework the ending,

I'm kinda torn about this, on hand Nightwings own book is a mess, the Todd/Dick playoff is awefully and it seems obvious that he can't be in all the places he appears atm. But I'm pretty happy with him in Outsiders and as long as that bit comes out as the status quo then I'll be happy. Imho they need to cut Dick's book, lock him firmly into outsiders and make that his core role so that he can be 100% dedicated to it. Another year of Dick as the competant successful team leader he should be and everyone will want him in the JLA.

MichaelH

06-04-2006, 08:34 AM

Did I miss something here?

Considering how Nightwing OYL started in March and IC ended in May, I have no clue how you can come to that conclusion. Obviously it would have had to be planned out or else there would not have even been a OYL Nightwing book at all. Also, everything didio has said points to DC having a very clear idea of where they want Dick Grayson to go OYL.

All Didio said was that at one point in time, Nightwing was supposed to die at the end of IC. We do not know when this point was, or in what stage of planning this was on the map. At one point, Kal-L wasn't even going to be in the story. The entire storyline of Infinitie Crisis grew and changed as it was being put together. I don't see this as "proof" that IC wasn't "fully planned out like they said it was".

I think there wasn't a last minute change, too. As you pointed out, it would have been almost impossible to make such a drastic change simply due to the first Nightwing OYL issue being solicited after IC 2 (or maybe 3) was released. Also other reports from the Philly panel make it clearer, that Nighwing dying was an earlier discussion.

From silverbulletcomicbooks.com:

Didio then confessed he felt Nightwing should have died during Infinite Crisis, an idea Geoff Johns vehemently opposed.
Both Johns and DiDio insisted that their intentions about Infinite Crisis did not change at all during the production of the series (e.g. Superboy Prime was never intended to join the Legion of Super-Heroes; the multiverse was never intended to return permanently, Infinite Crisis was never intended to reboot continuity)

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/114929644565707.htm

Louis Lane

06-04-2006, 11:14 AM

I would have thought that Dick Grayson is too much a part of established continuity to kill. But then again, they killed the Golden Age Superman...

LL

MichaelH

06-04-2006, 11:21 AM

I would have thought that Dick Grayson is too much a part of established continuity to kill. But then again, they killed the Golden Age Superman...

LL

They killed Barry Allen, the original Supergirl and Superboy. Being a part of established continuity doesn't make characters (other than Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman) safe. And those are the deaths that actually matter and resonate with fans.

earth420

06-04-2006, 03:22 PM

I wonder if they were also planning to kill Cassie in the early stages as well. It would make more sense in regards to IC #7's ending. If WonderGirl, SuperBoy, and NightWing had all died, I can see that being reason enough for the Trinity to take a year off.

JacktheKnife

06-04-2006, 03:25 PM

They killed Barry Allen, the original Supergirl and Superboy. Being a part of established continuity doesn't make characters (other than Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman) safe. And those are the deaths that actually matter and resonate with fans.
Well to be fair. They killed the original Supergirl, and then quickly erased her from ever having exsisted and now, many years later, we see Kara back.

Barry they killed, yes, but they quickly replaced him with his sidekick.

Superboy it remains to be seen. It's too early to stay if he's actually going to stay dead for any length of time.

Inanimate

06-04-2006, 04:06 PM

I think there wasn't a last minute change, too. As you pointed out, it would have been almost impossible to make such a drastic change simply due to the first Nightwing OYL issue being solicited after IC 2 (or maybe 3) was released. Also other reports from the Philly panel make it clearer, that Nighwing dying was an earlier discussion.

From silverbulletcomicbooks.com:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/114929644565707.htm

Excellent Damage on the JSA

MichaelH

06-04-2006, 06:21 PM

Well to be fair. They killed the original Supergirl, and then quickly erased her from ever having exsisted and now, many years later, we see Kara back.

Barry they killed, yes, but they quickly replaced him with his sidekick.

Superboy it remains to be seen. It's too early to stay if he's actually going to stay dead for any length of time.

True, but my point was that no character outside of the big three is safe. They can be killed and be replaced with new versions.