J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI’s WORDS, WORDS, WORDS (One) [Archive]

DBHughes

03-06-2006, 03:21 PM

The largest problem I see with this initial advice is the main problem in the writing industry. Companies and editors are not looking for good ideas and good stories; these gatekeepers are looking out for themselves.

A case in point is the example of the 1980's Twilight Zone revival.

When I was working on The New Twilight Zone, circa 1988, we put out an open call for scripts from anybody, agented or otherwise. We received just over 3,000 submissions. Every one of them was read by our in-house reader, who I understand is still recovering. Of those 3,000 scripts, we found only one that was suitably professional in appearance and storytelling techniques to buy. I think that figure speaks volumes about what’s out there.

Basically what the above says is that no one was looking for a good narrative, story or idea; the team was instead looking for professional appearance and storytelling techniques (whatever that means). No one on the Twilight Zone wanted to actually apply work and, God forbid, edit a script; they could not even stomach taking a co-writer credit to make sure the best story was told. Instead, the Twilight Zone team scoured for any reason they could find to reject the script. After all, why help make the best product when instead a substandard script could be written to ensure all of the salary would go to a "professional".

As for the one script chosen? It would be interesting to know the surrounding details. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing in the column that says the one script chosen was actually ever used.

In the case of the Twilight Zone (and most any other property), the consumer is not seeking out the writer; the consumer is seeking out a story. Did any of us schedule our days to catch just the JMS written episodes of He-man? How many became enthralled with Babylon 5 because JMS was attached?

What JMS says is true about name recognition, but JMS has skipped far ahead in the career path in order to reinforce the smoke screen. Until the mid-point of Babylon 5, no consumer even knew who JMS was; yet JMS had plenty of work. Was JMS writing low-rent crap in the meantime? No. JMS was writing He-man. JMS was writing Twilight Zone. JMS was writing properties that did not require a name attached; and that's why most new writers seek out a company like Marvel.

A Spider-man story is either a good story or not; and many even only buy because it says "Spider-man" on the cover. The name of the writer is of little consequence. Is Spider-man really selling so much more under JMS's pen? No, the sales are about the same as they've been since the mid 90's. What about X-men? Large sales explosions there? Not really. You could literally hire a chimpanzee to write most of these titles, and there would be little fluctuation in sales. Just look at Chuck Austen.

The Spider-men and X-men of the world are just like the Twilight Zones and He-men. Established writers mean nothing except to the production team. Who is the production team? Other writers and professionals who firstly do not want to lose their present job and secondly do not want to squeeze themselves out of future jobs by allowing too many people to get "in". It is no coincidence that the same production names continually pop up in disposable media like television, comics, etc. These people were not handed down by God as the handful of people in the entire world who can do the job. The people in power want to stay in power; and that means keeping others out as much as possible.

All of this is about competition. If it were not about competition, then people like JMS could lift their little pinky to help a writer correct mistakes in an otherwise great Twilight Zone story. It doesn't happen. Instead, JMS only takes on a "protege" who was most probably an old assistant; another example of those who were already "in".

Ah; and what about my favorite excuses I often hear? "Why should the editor trust you with *anything*, you nobody?!" "It's common sense the editor wouldn't want you; you'll dillute and damage the trademark!" It's funny; I thought the editor wasn't supposed to trust any writer; the editor is allegedly meant to shape a writer's work into the best story it can be through listening to the pitch to either accept or deny, reading the story and then making notes and actual corrections. I see no element of that process which requires trust; but that again assumes the jobs work by their definition.

Case in point? Drax the Destroyer. Name attached? Keith Giffen. Editor's role? "I want a copy of Lilo and Stitch! Go with it!" Sales? In the toilet. Reaction? Quesada rewards Giffen and the editor four new mini-series to reshape more characters in their style.

Now *that's* trust; a moronic trust.

Funkytable

03-06-2006, 03:22 PM

Hey JMS,

I’ve been a fan of your work in comics for awhile now. I'm looking forward to future entries.

I've been thinking about what you briefly discussed in this article, learning the rules of writing. When I was a kid I would daydream about grand universes for characters I thought were fun, I even wrote a few stories in my 7th grade English class for a very encouraging teacher. Most of those dreams of being a writer died around 9th grade and didn't come back until I finished college (almost two years ago).

I tried to do some prewriting for a story for the Christian Market, but I just couldn’t get past the set up for the universe. I realized that even though I had some neat ideas for a universe filled with allegory, I couldn’t write dialog or map out a basic plot. I needed to learn the rules of writing before pursuing it any further. So summer of last year I bought a book on writing that’s collected dust on my shelf ever since, mainly due to laziness.

New years rolled around and I realized I hadn't pursued my fantasy of writing even a little bit since I bought that book. My new goal is to finish the book by the end of the month.

Interesting that when I am on the verge of pursuing my dream of writing fiction, a column like this emerges by one of my favorite authors. I am looking forward to your future entries.

p.s.

Will we ever see the twins again?

Will we ever see Peter teach again?

Any chance we can see some shorter storylines in both FF and Amazing in the coming months?

I’m looking forward to the upcoming Spidey issues. I loved “The Other” and enjoyed #529 as well (The MJ’s arm bit made me laugh out loud, I’ve never seen anything like that in a comic book before). I hope you stay on Amazing for a long time.

Dragonbat

03-06-2006, 03:25 PM

Loved the article! I think I really did need to hear that there IS no competition. The only problem is that if one wishes to write about existing comic characters, one is fairly limited as to where one can be gainfully employed.

Go to the DC site, and there's info on how to pitch your artwork. Writing... sadly, they either don't mention, or take a few extra words to say: don't bother.

I don't mind, really. For now, I'm working with fanfiction. People seem to like it, and I seem to be attracting the mature feedbackers... which tells me that I might have some potential.

I will be gleaning subsequent columns for any advice or encouragement in the field, though.

Dragonbat aka Esther-Channah aka estherdragonbat

midnighter03

03-06-2006, 03:27 PM

I read this man's stuff with great fervor. Book of Lost Souls, to me, is what it seems like Sandman was to folks 10 - 15 years ago (I like Sandman, don't get me wrong, but I wasn't there as it was being written). JMS' POV is very unique but at the same time very accessible (and yes you are selling a POV but if no one understands it or can access it, you can't be that successful, can you?). Still, to me, JMS writes better than Bendis (and I like him a lot too) and Millar (ditto), but in some way I cannot pinpoint. JMS' pacing seems much more patient than Bendis or Millar; Loeb has the same patience to a degree I think (maybe its an age thing?).

This also could not have come at a better time. I was feeling superbly bummed out after the NYCC and was feeling like comics were turning into something I should enjoy as a memory, not as an active pursuit.

In any event, I believe you (and agree) that you are selling your own unique POV. BUT, I also feel like I am constantly told to write what you know (at least when you "start out" which to me would last until maybe 5 minutes before I die). I can't seem to shake that feeling that what I know or have to share isn't something the world wants to see. Do you ever feel that way? And how does writing what you know graduate into writing for a genre like sci-fi, where we can't really *know* what it is like to live on a space ship or on another planet.

03-06-2006, 03:34 PM

...Well, all I can say about JMS' new collumn is...Y$@GDF

<center>
*chipity**TwIpPleTy*BLEEP!!!*
"The Wisdom of the Flow of the River from the Creator must be Wrapped around each of the Rocks in the Stream as the Flow sees fit. The Rocks have no vote."
BEEplty*ChirP!*
</center>

..and that's pretty much my take on the whole mess. Of course, if Matty censors this post because I said all those nasty, hateful things about Warren and Jimmy and The Q, those are the risks we have to take, eh?

AndrewHickey

03-06-2006, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Basically what the above says is that no one was looking for a good narrative, story or idea; the team was instead looking for professional appearance and storytelling techniques (whatever that means).

No - what that means is that when faced with 3000 scripts (or more than ten per work day for a year) , the first thing you do is look and see who could be bothered to make the effort.

No one on the Twilight Zone wanted to actually apply work and, God forbid, edit a script; they could not even stomach taking a co-writer credit to make sure the best story was told. Instead, the Twilight Zone team scoured for any reason they could find to reject the script. After all, why help make the best product when instead a substandard script could be written to ensure all of the salary would go to a "professional".

Yes, I'm sure they did look for any reason to reject a script. If you have 3000 scripts and only 20 (say) slots in your TV show, then you have to have *some* weeding mechanism.
In this case, the chances are they threw out anything that didn't meet their formatting requirements - handwritten, or typed on both sides of the paper or whatever - because anyone who can't be bothered to put the effort in to make their script fit the requirements is almost certainly not willing to put the effort in to make the script any good. They will also have thrown out anything with obvious spelling or grammatical errors that made it impossible to read, or anything obviously written by someone who didn't understand the show's concept and so forth. Then they will have thrown out those scripts that were simply not very good - badly-paced, cliched or what have you.
This makes sense. The job of a writer is to *communicate*, not to create work for a reader. It is not their job to take some half-baked idea scrawled on the back of a napkin and turn it into a workable script - someone wanting to write for TV should be able to, y'know, actually write a whole script.
When you apply for a job, do you send in a typed, well-formatted CV that you've spell-checked and maybe had some other people read over, that shows you've read the job advert, or do you just send in something hand-written with coffee-stains on it and spelling errors everywhere and that says nothing about why you should be taken on for the job?
If you would expect the latter to be thrown out when applying for a job with half-a-dozen applicants, earning minimum wage (which it would be), why would you expect lower standards for a job with thousands of applicants earning very large sums?
If you can't be bothered to make the effort, why should they?

In the case of the Twilight Zone (and most any other property), the consumer is not seeking out the writer; the consumer is seeking out a story. Did any of us schedule our days to catch just the JMS written episodes of He-man? How many became enthralled with Babylon 5 because JMS was attached?

Pretty much everyone who watched it, I assume, given that he wrote pretty much all of it and came up with the idea...

Michael P

03-06-2006, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
The largest problem I see with this initial advice is the main problem in the writing industry. Companies and editors are not looking for good ideas and good stories; these gatekeepers are looking out for themselves.

A case in point is the example of the 1980's Twilight Zone revival.

Basically what the above says is that no one was looking for a good narrative, story or idea; the team was instead looking for professional appearance and storytelling techniques (whatever that means). No one on the Twilight Zone wanted to actually apply work and, God forbid, edit a script; they could not even stomach taking a co-writer credit to make sure the best story was told. Instead, the Twilight Zone team scoured for any reason they could find to reject the script. After all, why help make the best product when instead a substandard script could be written to ensure all of the salary would go to a "professional".
Admit it: You were one of the other 2,999, weren't you?

All joking aside, you seem to think that good presentation and good narrative are separate things. As both an editor and a published writer, allow me and my friend Jimmy to disabuse you of that notion.

This, by the way, is Jimmy:

http://home.c2i.net/john_reitan/diddley.jpg

Jimmy, you want to start us off?

*WHAM*

Thanks, Jimmy. Now, I didn't help JMS judge that contest, but I can guess that when he says that those 2,999 entries lacked professional appearance and storytelling techniques, what he means is that they were poorly spelled and grammared, unintelligibly formatted, had no sense of structure, began or ended weakly, and just in general looked like they'd been dashed out overnight. (And JMS is more than welcome to come in here and prove me wrong or right. But, as the man said, that's the way to bet.) And there were 3,000 of these things. And in addition to judging them, writing polite but honest rejection letters to the 2,999 whose work was not sufficient and an acceptance letter to the one who was, they also had to work on the script being shot next week, the rewrites for the script being shot this week, the rewrites for the script that was shot *last* week, and springboards/outlines/drafts for pretty much the rest of the season. And you think they were honor-bound to drop all that just because of an idea that *might* show promise?

Jimmy, I need you again.

*WHAM*

Unpleasant truth of writing: Your idea doesn't mean dick if you don't have the wherewithal to execute it to the point that someone else is willing to spend their time looking at it. It is not an editor's job to take you by the hand and lead you from concept to publishability. It is not an editor's job to teach you how to write. It is an editor's job to find material that is already publishable, improve it, and publish it. End of story.

You've got an idea? Join the rest of the human race. You want to write it, get paid for it, get the world to give a damn about it? Do the hard work yourself. I did. JMS did. Anyone you've ever heard of did.

If, on the other hand, you'd rather bitch about the world owing you a living, well, you've certainly proven it takes no hard work whatsoever to accomplish that.

hebitudinous

03-06-2006, 03:48 PM

Thank you.

Reading through all of the comments so far, I suppose there are a few lessons to be accepted or ignored.

First, there's something to be said for trying to help someone without expecting anything in return. Think of it as karma; someone, somewhere just might get something from it. And just because DC or Marvel don't put out "Help Wanted" signs doesn't make them all heartless bastards -- it just means no one's going to give you a step-by-step guide to succeeding.

Second, it's all about you. It's about how much YOU are willing to do to advance your craft and be the best damn writer/artist/colorist/whatever floats your boat. As these boards show, there are ALWAYS going to be people who will say the darndest things. If you're going to succeed you'll need to develop a thick skin; which is all about understanding who you really are.

And lastly, learn to fail fast. Nothing will get you to success faster than learning to make mistakes, and perhaps more importantly, learning to get the spiritual strength to learn from those mistakes. Every day gives you an opportunity to make more mistakes. It's what successful people do.

jamdav86

03-06-2006, 03:58 PM

Wow, I'm going to look forward to this every week.

Michael P

03-06-2006, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by jamdav86
Wow, I'm going to look forward to this every week. The column, or the comments? 'Cause one's great advice, and the other's great comedy.

DBHughes

03-06-2006, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Michael P
Admit it: You were one of the other 2,999, weren't you?

Oh Yippee! The usual smart-ass brigade comes to the fore. I am not impressed.

Here's a common sense response. If you are pouring through scripts looking for grammatical mistakes and formatting issues, then you are not "reading" scripts. As any simpleton knows, reading entails actually digesting a sentence or set of sentences so that you can recognize some semblance of what it said. If all one can say is "Johnny spelled it "tomayto" and forgot to double indent", then you didn't read anything.

That's where the core issue reveals itself. While people such as Michael P love to lord it over others that they are an "editor" and have been "pubilshed", they lack the inherent ability to say what they mean. Why? Because they're playing a disingenuous shell game.

Even a special education student can explain what "reading" means; so the only conclusion here is that we have a group of people who use the word "reading" improperly in order to give a false impression. Nothing is "read"; even most pitch sentences are not glanced upon; it instead comes down to whether or not the script is single spaced versus double spaced. That says nothing about the product being presented; it's just a very convenient excuse.

And people wonder how something like "Saving Private Ryan" could float around Hollywood for 12 years before anyone cared...

And by the way, I enter these discussions just for the fun of it; I like pulling back the curtain to look at the "great" and "powerful" Oz. By your own admission, you guys can't and won't help me with anything in this area; all you do is preach "Do it yourself." I needed *you* to tell me that? Jesus. The low opinion you snobs have of the world is insanely amusing.

jamdav86

03-06-2006, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Michael P
The column, or the comments? 'Cause one's great advice, and the other's great comedy.

The column certainly, but Jimmy deserves a big shout out.

Put him in your sig and share him with the world!

At least, the world within the confines of the Newsarama message board.

Which isn't really the world, is it?

I'll shut up now.

BUY SHE-HULK!

I should get paid for that.

gabesummers

03-06-2006, 04:10 PM

did some say macrame'????!!!!!!!!!

oh darn it i got thingies for key chains and everyyyyytttthhiiinnggg. :(

AndrewHickey

03-06-2006, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes

Even a special education student can explain what "reading" means; so the only conclusion here is that we have a group of people who use the word "reading" improperly in order to give a false impression. Nothing is "read"; even most pitch sentences are not glanced upon; it instead comes down to whether or not the script is single spaced versus double spaced. That says nothing about the product being presented; it's just a very convenient excuse.

What it says is whether the person sending in the script has gone to the basic trouble of checking what the submission guidelines are. If you're too lazy to do that, you're too lazy to bother writing a decent script. And someone who really does want to get published but honestly doesn't know these rules will pick them up very quickly from rejection slips and send their work in formatted *correctly*.

A script sent in to an editor is a job application for a job where the number of applicants is several orders of magnitude greater than the number of open positions. It is physically *impossible* for editors to read every script they get, and while it's possible that those criteria might mean missing the occasional masterpiece, the chances are that *AT LEAST* 2,990 of those 2,999 were truly terrible.

(Just so you know, I've never been published, have submitted to a variety of publishers, and am basing my guess at the quality on the sample scripts I see on various mailing lists I'm on for aspiring writers - and these are the people who care about the craft enough to *want* to learn...)

krort6462

03-06-2006, 04:16 PM

Great article, without a doubt. Very helpful, very informative. Great idea, Newsarama.

And a huge thank you to JMS for taking the time to write it.
C

zhstar

03-06-2006, 04:21 PM

Fantastic column JMS! I hope to see more of these.

Comics for sale (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Star-Comics-Collectibles)

TCJohnson

03-06-2006, 04:25 PM

Lots of people want to be professional writers. The one part of that people seem to forget is the word PROFESSIONAL.

You are not just trying to sell your story to an editor, you are trying to sell yourself as a source of good stories. If you don't hand in stories on time, then you are not being professional. If you are not giving your writing a good presentation you are not being professional. It would be like me coming to an interview in jeans and sneakers. Doesn't matter how good I am at my job, it is giving the interviewer a bad impression right off the start.

If you don't take the time to make sure your script is in the correct format, then why should the editors take the time to read it? 3,000 scripts, you jnow how much time that must take to read through all that? Of course they are going to be looking for reasons to shorten the pile.

If you don't care enough about your story to take the time to make sure it is properly formatted, why should the editors care?

You have to be professional.

Spider Symbiote

03-06-2006, 04:27 PM

Wow. And to think I very nearly skipped this article.

Well, Joe, I would like to say a big thank you for answering this question (and thanks to MattB too). I hadn't forgotten my asking this, and I confess to being a tad disappointed that it wasn't asked on Joe Fridays over the weekend - at least until I read this column at least!

And, this is the paragraph that spoke to me more than any other - a pearl of wisdom that I hope will stay with me in the months and years to come:

Your only real competition...is with yourself, with your fears, your insecurities, your determination to learn what needs to be learned; your willingness to apply ass to chair and fingers to keyboard and Get It Done instead of Talking About It. Too many beginning writers leave their stories forever unfinished because as long as the work is incomplete...it can’t be judged. Write. Finish it. Write the next thing. Rinse, repeat. Learn as much as you can. Write as much as you can. Because the more you write, the better you will write. It’s no different than any other muscle. Exercise it, and it becomes stronger.

I understand far, far more now than I did half an hour ago. I'm not quite sure how I can properly reply to it, but I think it can be summed up with a heart-felt and humble: Thank you. :cool:

And Joe... the proof-reading bit. Ya thunk I realy need ti?

And guys... Sins Past. Can we please get over it?

krort6462

03-06-2006, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Spider Symbiote
Wow. And to think I very nearly skipped this article.

Well, Joe, I would like to say a big thank you for answering this question (and thanks to MattB too). I hadn't forgotten my asking this, and I confess to being a tad disappointed that it wasn't asked on Joe Fridays over the weekend - at least until I read this column at least!

And, this is the paragraph that spoke to me more than any other - a pearl of wisdom that I hope will stay with me in the months and years to come:

Your only real competition...is with yourself, with your fears, your insecurities, your determination to learn what needs to be learned; your willingness to apply ass to chair and fingers to keyboard and Get It Done instead of Talking About It. Too many beginning writers leave their stories forever unfinished because as long as the work is incomplete...it can’t be judged. Write. Finish it. Write the next thing. Rinse, repeat. Learn as much as you can. Write as much as you can. Because the more you write, the better you will write. It’s no different than any other muscle. Exercise it, and it becomes stronger.

I understand far, far more now than I did half an hour ago. I'm not quite sure how I can properly reply to it, but I think it can be summed up with a heart-felt and humble: Thank you. :cool:

And Joe... the proof-reading bit. Ya thunk I realy need ti?

And guys... Sins Past. Can we please get over it?

The man who got the ball rolling: Mr. Symbiote. Thanks for being the impetus...sort of...behind this new column. You have to feel good about this kind of reaction. I know you're not the only one interested in the subject, but you are the only one who was called out. Keep the faith, and good luck to you in the future.
C

jamdav86

03-06-2006, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Spider Symbiote
And Joe... the proof-reading bit. Ya thunk I realy need ti?

:D HA HA HA HA!

You know, I laugh, but I'm not known by JMS. Ah well, I've never read anything of his anyway.

skaly

03-06-2006, 04:57 PM

JMS is an excellent writer. "Sins Past" had its flaws, but the writing wasn't one of them. I think what people really hate about that story is the idea of it. I believe that ideas are neither good nor bad, but depend on the execution. Or rather, I did believe it until I read that storyline. In comics, some things are sacred. And JMS seems to enjoy writing stories that alter our perception of what is "sacred" to us. I think, if we take a step back and examine what's going on, we can learn a lot about ourselves and our relationship to these stories.

Still, even though these kinds of stories don't always satisfy, I respect JMS for making the attempt to tell such stories, and for doing an excellent job writing them, even if the idea itself meant that most of the fans would not accept it. I'd rather the writers risk attempting something new and fail than retread what has come before. (Of course, I'm rather partial to traditional superheroics as well. There is a time for tradition, and a time for invention.)

Moonbeam

03-06-2006, 04:58 PM

I have close to zero interest in writing comics, but this column was awesome!!

Looking forward to more!! :D

DBHughes

03-06-2006, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
It is physically *impossible* for editors to read every script they get

Why would anyone put themselves in a position where they faced an impossible task? If these people hold grammar and format to such a high standard, then why do they not require each applicant first take a pre-formatted English test? Through that method, it would be much easier to more fairly and consistently evaluate an applicant by those standards and would even be much more legally prudent given that stories would only be submitted by those "few" applicants who first sufficiently met these asinine grammar excuses.

But hey; guess none of the "professionals" are smart enough to think about that.

and these are the people who care about the craft enough to *want* to learn...)

And you assume based on my comments here that I do not want to learn. I have studied; I have read; I have talked with "names". I have also submitted; I've been told on each occasion that the work is great and often even told that it is hard to believe the work has not yet been published. Then each starts coming up with some flimsy excuse most submitters probably never hear. My favorite so far has been the Marvel e-mail that gushed about how good the work was only to close with "We are not accepting new characters at this time". Mind you, I had already stated I would sign any legal document put before me to give up all rights in any way, shape or form. Hell, I didn't even care about being paid for it.

So what's the lesson there? "Don't create new characters"? I have been given no lesson to learn. The only thing I have been often told is that no matter how good you are, the only thing anyone can do is self-publish. Hey, that's great; bankruptcy is fun. That's the only standard left - put your entire life on the line. You must sacrifice yourself on the altar of their egos, and just maybe they'll come pick you out of the Red Cross Shelter William Messner-Loebs is sitting in.

So what is there to learn? What do I lose by shoving this stuff in the face of JMS or anyone like him? The answer to both is nothing. If I make it on my own to the degree any of them will care, then I will not need them any longer; they will need me. Yeah; that works. No wonder Marvel Publishing's operating costs are so out of control.

Space Canuck

03-06-2006, 05:12 PM

Thanks J, I look forward to more.

Space Canuck

Spider Symbiote

03-06-2006, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by krort6462
The man who got the ball rolling: Mr. Symbiote. Thanks for being the impetus...sort of...behind this new column. You have to feel good about this kind of reaction. I know you're not the only one interested in the subject, but you are the only one who was called out. Keep the faith, and good luck to you in the future.
C

I feel very good about the reaction, to be quite honest.

You have no idea how surprised I was when I began reading through the article and saw my question. It felt very surreal.

>Sym basks in his glory<

>... and remembers that it's getting late over here in Jolly Ol' England and needs to go to bed soon otherwise he'll be like the walking dead at work tomorrow... <

AlexLothos

03-06-2006, 05:22 PM

After having a very tough day with a lot of changes good and bad, this is what I needed before I head off to the day job.

JMS, you are awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!

/fanboy

Okay, back to work I go. I can't wait to see more of these columns!

VaderTime

03-06-2006, 06:29 PM

Blast-Off

03-06-2006, 06:33 PM

I thought this column was great and much needed. You don't see many columns or even single articles about the art of writing for comics. I am definitely excited for the future of this column. Though not much of a writer myself I'm sure there are many out there that are looking for just this sort of thing. Also, I would suggest "Story" by Robert Mckee one of the best books on writinf I have ever read.

RedRonin

03-06-2006, 07:04 PM

I want to thank JMS for taking the time to write this (and furure) articles. It was helpfull, really cool, and most of all fun.

And great pic of JMS.:D That much better then the little picture they always ran in Wizard, where he looks very pissed off.

:p

Raven117

03-06-2006, 07:09 PM

JMS is a good guy, I met him last summer at a convention in Toronto. He always seems pissed off, but for some people, that is their game face. It keeps away the cowards, trust me.

CrankyViking

03-06-2006, 07:19 PM

Sorry, just had to chime in. I'm masochistic that way...

Originally posted by DBHughes
Why would anyone put themselves in a position where they faced an impossible task? If these people hold grammar and format to such a high standard, then why do they not require each applicant first take a pre-formatted English test? Through that method, it would be much easier to more fairly and consistently evaluate an applicant by those standards and would even be much more legally prudent given that stories would only be submitted by those "few" applicants who first sufficiently met these asinine grammar excuses.

But hey; guess none of the "professionals" are smart enough to think about that.

Not a bad idea, but wouldn't it be better to play by their rules, since you're looking to join their game? A newcomer to the industry, with no known reputation, would probably move faster through the ranks as a team player rather than a maverick.

Originally posted by DBHughes
And you assume based on my comments here that I do not want to learn. I have studied; I have read; I have talked with "names". I have also submitted; I've been told on each occasion that the work is great and often even told that it is hard to believe the work has not yet been published. Then each starts coming up with some flimsy excuse most submitters probably never hear. My favorite so far has been the Marvel e-mail that gushed about how good the work was only to close with "We are not accepting new characters at this time". Mind you, I had already stated I would sign any legal document put before me to give up all rights in any way, shape or form. Hell, I didn't even care about being paid for it.

However, you're asking the company to publish an unknown quantity with no assurances of success. That's assuming a whole lot of risk, whatever their (or your) opinions of your ideas. What if the book tanks? While your character(s) may have some actual merit, expecting a publisher to take chances on an untested product on the strengths of an unknown creator is unrealistic, to say the least.

I've a character that I'd love to see in print, and I'm aware that the most likely method of that happening is currently self-publishing. However, were I to start out by writing existing characters for another company, thereby proving my worth to them, then I might get them to look at my character proposal. Publishers want to take as little a risk as possible. Just ask Peter David about Fallen Angel sometime. Your plight is neither unique or unheard of in that regard.

Originally posted by DBHughes
So what's the lesson there? "Don't create new characters"? I have been given no lesson to learn. The only thing I have been often told is that no matter how good you are, the only thing anyone can do is self-publish. Hey, that's great; bankruptcy is fun. That's the only standard left - put your entire life on the line. You must sacrifice yourself on the altar of their egos, and just maybe they'll come pick you out of the Red Cross Shelter William Messner-Loebs is sitting in.

Neal Gaiman's first writing assignment for DC was Black Orchid. Not an original creation. JMS has, to date, not produced any original title characters, only his take on existing characters. While he may yet do so, Marvel is under NO obligation to publish a page of it. Though they're a lot more likely to accept his ideas given his track record.

As for self-publishing, that's NOT the only option. Have you looked into Image's submission guidelines? They're a lot more relaxed than either of the Big Two, and you get to keep the rights to your characters.

Originally posted by DBHughes
So what is there to learn? What do I lose by shoving this stuff in the face of JMS or anyone like him? The answer to both is nothing. If I make it on my own to the degree any of them will care, then I will not need them any longer; they will need me. Yeah; that works. No wonder Marvel Publishing's operating costs are so out of control.

The only thing I see, from what I'm reading here, that you need to learn is that no one has the "right" to a chance. Editors don't owe you the chance to prove yourself, and you're not helping your cause by annoying people within the industry. That will only earn you a rep as an irritant and make it even more difficult to work for the big companies, whatever measure of success you do manage to attain.

Then again, this is only advice. Take it as you will.

Kevin Street

03-06-2006, 07:20 PM

Interesting column. Thank you for taking the time to write it, JMS. I'm really looking forward to future installments.

But I hope people remember that you're talking about writing in general and not just comics. No one should try to make their first publication something in the comic book field. It's just not open to newcomers.

Nonfiction magazine articles, local newspapers and short story fiction magazines are a lot more welcoming for someone who's just starting out. They have editors you can pester with unsolicited submissions, and they don't mind as much if you keep pestering them after they reject the first couple dozen attempts...

Not From Around

03-06-2006, 07:23 PM

Marvel and DC have talent practically breaking down the door to get in. They have writers who have made their names (and lots of money) in TV and fiction who want to write their comics just for the fun of it. They have people who have proven their talent through small publishers and self-publishing, and have demonstrated some degree of industry savvy by learning who to approach and how. And of course there are still lots of active established pros. Why, given all this, should they go to a lot of trouble accepting unsolicited material from people they've never heard of? Let alone go to the trouble of taking a rough new talent and carefully helping to teach that person how to write?

Nobody really owes an unknown new writer anything. The writer must find ways to bring the work politely to a potential publisher's attention--and make sure that writing is something good enough to make the publisher want more. If it doesn't work--well, there's no sense being bitter about it. If the act of writing itself isn't satisfying, then maybe writing isn't really what one needs to be doing.

HankPym

03-06-2006, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by CrankyViking
JMS has, to date, not produced any original title characters, only his take on existing characters. Not quite true. There was last year's Dream Police one-shot, as well as The Book of Lost Souls, both of which were published under Marvel's Icon imprint.

Aside from that, I agree with your post completely.

Kevin Street

03-06-2006, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Not From Around
Marvel and DC have talent practically breaking down the door to get in. They have writers who have made their names (and lots of money) in TV and fiction who want to write their comics just for the fun of it. They have people who have proven their talent through small publishers and self-publishing, and have demonstrated some degree of industry savvy by learning who to approach and how. And of course there are still lots of active established pros. Why, given all this, should they go to a lot of trouble accepting unsolicited material from people they've never heard of? Let alone go to the trouble of taking a rough new talent and carefully helping to teach that person how to write?

Because new writers have to come from somewhere, and depending exclusively upon talented professionals from other fields to keep coming into comics isn't...well, it's not healthy. Right now the comic book field is very lucky because there are so many professionals in the movie, TV and book fields that grew up reading comics that want to get in on the fun. DC and Marvel are reaping a harvest that was sowed decades ago, but there's no system in place to cultivate new talent within the industry. And that's a shame. What will happen if the trends change and some other medium begins to draw writers away from comics?

Now, I'm not saying that the companies "owe" writers anything or that they need to teach people how to write - that would be stupid. But there really should be some kind of policy at the big companies to review unsolicited submissions, because that would help the industry grow. Look at the fiction magazines. They go through hundreds of spec stories a month, and the writers they discover in the slush pile later go on to enrich and renew the publishing industry. If comics had that same kind of entry point, they wouldn't be so dependent upon writers from other fields.

TCJohnson

03-06-2006, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by CrankyViking
Neal Gaiman's first writing assignment for DC was Black Orchid.

ANd his second assignment for DC was to recreate the Wesley Dodds Sandman for the '80s. Not an original creation either.

Michael P

03-06-2006, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by RedRonin
I want to thank JMS for taking the time to write this (and furure) articles. It was helpfull, really cool, and most of all fun.

And great pic of JMS.:D That much better then the little picture they always ran in Wizard, where he looks very pissed off.

:p Remember the one of Alan Moore they ran for years, the one that looked like it should have "Abandon Hope, All Ye WHo Enter Here" as a caption?

mister_costa

03-06-2006, 08:30 PM

He-Man was awesome. It inspired me to be a writer. Here is some of it.

http://www.highlander-community.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=0008 72

Whipsnakes

03-06-2006, 08:37 PM

JMS has, to date, not produced any original title characters, only his take on existing characters.

Are you kidding?
His Icon work, Rising Stars, and Midnight Nation were created by him. Not to mention the 2 television shows he created.

CrankyViking

03-06-2006, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by Whipsnakes
JMS has, to date, not produced any original title characters, only his take on existing characters.

Are you kidding?
His Icon work, Rising Stars, and Midnight Nation were created by him. Not to mention the 2 television shows he created.

My bad, thanks for catching that. I meant specifically "for Marvel."

Tommy Marx

03-06-2006, 08:52 PM

I think this was easily the best column I've ever read on a comic book site. Thank you, Mr. Straczynski, for such a wonderful and honest piece!

Bill Myers

03-06-2006, 08:52 PM

JMS, thank you for putting things in proper perspective. I've gotten the ass-to-the-chair and fingers-to-the-keyboard down pat for the first time in my life but was still struggling with that voice inside that said, "I couldn't possibly be good enough, so why try?" Of course, the answer is simple: because if you have talent, make a serious effort and are smart about it, you have the same shot that any successful writer had when they were breaking in. And the only way to know if you have the requisite talent to be a writer is to write and put your work out there to be judged.

I appreciate a writer of your caliber being willing to share his insights. I have to admit I've never been able to view the entirety of Babylon 5, but I've seen a good chunk of it and it was one of the most captivating creations I've ever seen on television. So, yeah, when someone like you has some advice, I stand up and take notice. (And yes, I really need to purchase the B5 DVDs and watch the show from start to finish.)

I recently realized that the urge to write (and draw) was pre-programmed into my neural wiring. So I've decided to stop fighting that programming and do what I'm driven to do. I may or may not succeed as a comics creator, but I'm going to have fun trying -- even if I'll be "trying" for the rest of my life.

I am working on my own comic and intend to self-publish it. JMS, you've inspired me to take a huge risk. I've made the script for the first issue available on my Web site, which is accessible via the link in my sig. I'd like to ask anyone interested to stop by my site, read the script and post any critique you see fit in my blog.

I know the sig is there for all to see but, hey, when I read posts in a hurry sometimes I skip the sigs.

Anyway, I hope this act of self-promotion on my part doesn't violate Newsarama policy (I couldn't find anything forbidding it in the rules and policies section, but ultimately it's Matt Brady's call, not mine) or even good posting etiquette. If it does, I apologize profusely for my transgression.

JMS, again, thanks for the inspiring column. I look forward to future installments. And if I post in those threads, I'll skip any further self-promotion. I can probably only get away with a stunt like this once, assuming I can get away with it at all.

2000 Flushes

03-06-2006, 10:16 PM

One subject I hope is eventually addressed here is how much a young writer can expect to make.

Two reasons:

1. Most people trying to break in probably first will land a gig with a small publisher. Maybe a four-page short story happens to interest one company. Maybe an eight-page story. Maybe a whole issue's script. Who knows? Someone someday is bound to get lucky. That person needs some idea, from an unbiased professional, how much he or she should charge. I'm sure today's company's aren't out to rip-off aspiring professionals, but it wouldn't hurt to be armed with enough knowledge so you don't sell yourself short.

2. Maybe an honest discussion on this will help weed out some of the money-hungry wannabes that JMS mentions.

2k

khuxford

03-06-2006, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Eric Palicki
Thanks, JMS.

And Matt B.

The community of aspiring comics writers, serious or otherwise, really needed something like this. Hell, I really needed something like this...

You're gentlemen and scholars.

Now, I wonder whether JMS's future suggestions will include cold-calling Harlan Ellison for advice...

-EAP

LOL...I liked it, too. I think Marvel is being pretty good to the fans here.

bassfan

03-06-2006, 10:36 PM

I really enjoyed it. I totally agree with what he said, most of the times we never even write. We just talk about how great our stories could be, but never get to write them or finish them.

Like everything else, it takes hard work and dedication. I thing most anybody could write one good story, what´s really hard is to keep yourself vital and fresh in the medium.

Anyway, also the money factor and writing out of love and passion I think it applies to any form or shape of art. Of course, who doesn´t like money, or needs it to pay the bills? But still to be able to work with the characters that you love and care about, it´s a reward in itself.

Thanks JMS, once again you´ve proven to be a great inspiration to us all.

thesporq

03-06-2006, 11:04 PM

I think all this discussion about honing one's craft, being professional and reliable is a good thing, but it's only half the story.

Once you become a Name[artist or writer], you can chuck all that stuff out the window. Even better, if you come into comics via TV or Film, you can do just about anything you want.

But maybe that's the ultimate payoff. If you can have a three-year gap between issues and actually turn it into a punchline, you're golden. If you can go months between issues and still have the fanboys coming back for more, well done.

xpositive

03-06-2006, 11:32 PM

JMS is a god. Not THE god, that is William Shatner. I love his Spider-Man stuff. Gwen needed to be knocked off her pedastool, and personally I think she's a stronger character because of it. More importantly, amazing Spider-Man has become a readable title again. I fear that he will soon loose patience with Marvel and go to the dark side (DC of course). Marvel needs him. DC is doing just fine without him. If he wrote Civil War, I'd be all over that.

If anyone wants more JMS writing advice, read Midnight Nation. It is one of his finer stories and offers a nice little inspirational story (I found it inspirational) in the back about his own personal experiences.

JMS rules dammit. He's no Shatner though...

bassfan

03-06-2006, 11:39 PM

JMS rules dammit. He's no Shatner though... [/B][/QUOTE]

But he still rules.

MistaT73

03-07-2006, 12:38 AM

Great idea for a column. I've wanted something like this for a while now. Look forward to reading it and getting some great advice from a great writer.

gvalley

03-07-2006, 12:42 AM

Hallelujah.

The Shadow

03-07-2006, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by DBHughes
No wonder Marvel Publishing's operating costs are so out of control. Question... how do you know Marvel's publishing costs are so out of control?

DC charges the same for comics... Image and Dark Horse even more.

Blast-Off

03-07-2006, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by xpositive

If anyone wants more JMS writing advice, read Midnight Nation. It is one of his finer stories and offers a nice little inspirational story (I found it inspirational) in the back about his own personal experiences.

JMS rules dammit. He's no Shatner though...

I also thought Midnight Nation was outstanding. It was a neat idea and executed wonderfully. I also found a bit of inspiration in his afterword.

Yami Ash

03-07-2006, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by DBHughes
And you assume based on my comments here that I do not want to learn. I have studied; I have read; I have talked with "names". I have also submitted; I've been told on each occasion that the work is great and often even told that it is hard to believe the work has not yet been published. Then each starts coming up with some flimsy excuse most submitters probably never hear. My favorite so far has been the Marvel e-mail that gushed about how good the work was only to close with "We are not accepting new characters at this time". Mind you, I had already stated I would sign any legal document put before me to give up all rights in any way, shape or form. Hell, I didn't even care about being paid for it.

So what's the lesson there? "Don't create new characters"? I have been given no lesson to learn. The only thing I have been often told is that no matter how good you are, the only thing anyone can do is self-publish. Hey, that's great; bankruptcy is fun. That's the only standard left - put your entire life on the line. You must sacrifice yourself on the altar of their egos, and just maybe they'll come pick you out of the Red Cross Shelter William Messner-Loebs is sitting in.

So what is there to learn? What do I lose by shoving this stuff in the face of JMS or anyone like him? The answer to both is nothing. If I make it on my own to the degree any of them will care, then I will not need them any longer; they will need me. Yeah; that works. No wonder Marvel Publishing's operating costs are so out of control.

I think there is a very important lesson to learn here: Know your customer. It doesn't matter how good your story was, it wasn't what they were looking for.

To use a metaphor, if you make the world's best eye shadow, you still won't sell it to most of the guys out there. So what should you do? find a customer who does like your product. In the case of your original character, you should be looking at one of the smaller companies who ARE looking for new characters.

But, anyways, a writer is trying to sell his story. For another metaphor, maybe you knit a sweater with only one arm, but you knit really well. Sure, you show promise as a knitter, but the sweater is still a crappy product that no one will buy.

In short, grammar and spelling and format really do matter.

straczynski

03-07-2006, 02:32 AM

Let me be real clear about something here that has gotten distorted, to some degree accidentally and in other cases to create a straw man argument.

When I talked about "professional presentation" and storytelling, I wasn't talking about grammar, or spelling, or puncutation. I was talking about writing something that resembled a script by what is commonly understood to BE a script.

By that I mean...many of the 3,000 scripts that were submitted (at the TZ and elsewhere) were written in nearly-illegible handwriting, on lined paper, and read like this

The man sees her. Hello. They talk. He says he wants "her out." They RUN to the door, "What do you mean?"

THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say something is not put together professionally.

There is a fomat and a structure to script writing that, I'm sorry, is fairly immutable. It has to be learned. Script writing IS structure. It's the HOW you tell a story. Ideas are a dime a dozen. Give 10 different writers the same idea and you'll get 14 hugely different stories. Execution (as opposed to assassination) is everything.

If I say, "Listen, I'm holding a contest for the best haiku," and you send in something written in iambic pentameter, it's going to fall by the wayside. Not to say it isn't *good* iambic pentameter, or blank verse, it could be great. But it isn't what was requested.

In the olympics, they judge on creativity and technical elements. This is no different (just a lot less jumping and throwing things). There are rules. You can like it or not, but the rules are the rules. And rules are there to show that someone took the time to learn them, but also because the rules make things more interesting. What's a football game without rules? Just a bunch of guys running around on the field aimlessly, and we have more than enough of that with our elected officials.

But this was never about grammar or punctuation, that's just silly, and it's not what I said. Which is not to say they are not important, they are, but they're not deal-breakers coming out of the envelope. So I hope this clarifies the point a bit.

jms

Gonzogoose

03-07-2006, 03:22 AM

Mr. Straczynski, thank you for this column. It really helped and motivated myself and a few other aspiring writer friends. The one line that has stuck with us, as with most everyone else who has posted here is "There is no competition."

Such a simple statement and a simple idea, but so very true and enlightening.

I'm not a fan of your Spider-Man, nor was I into Babylon 5, but I very much enjoy Supreme Power, which I tell everyone was one of the best comics on the shelf. And I have read your scriptwriting book several times.

I can't wait to read your next installment, and I hope someday you can call me colleague.

Thanks.

bomaya

03-07-2006, 05:12 AM

I've been a fan of JMS for many years now and as always his words inspire me. If anyone hasn't already read his Complete Guide to Script-writing, they should. It's a fascinating insight into the mind of a truly great writer.

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by DBHughes
So what is there to learn? What do I lose by shoving this stuff in the face of JMS or anyone like him? The answer to both is nothing. If I make it on my own to the degree any of them will care, then I will not need them any longer; they will need me. Yeah; that works. No wonder Marvel Publishing's operating costs are so out of control.

I'm probably crazy for throwing myself into the line of fire here. But DBHughes, I know a little of what you're going through. Over a decade ago I wrote a spec script for Star Trek: The Next Generation. I studied screenwriting in college, so I knew script format cold. I also asked for ST:TNG's submission guidelines and followed them. I even read articles about submitting to agents and did my best to put together a nice package.

I still remember one of the "no interest" letters I received. It was the nice cover letter I'd spent so much time writing, sent back to me with the words "no interest" scrawled on it in handwriting.

Man, I was pissed.

Later, I read an article in Hollywood Scriptwriter about an agent who had clients who had written for the Star Trek franchise. So I sent her a cover letter and she asked to see the script. She told me she liked it and wanted to submit it to Paramount. She said if they liked it, she and I could talk terms. I thought that was more than fair.

Then time passed. A lot. My calls weren't being returned. Finally, I found out Paramount never bit on my script, and the agent I had worked with had switched her focus to novels. She told me she couldn't help me with any scripts, but, hey, if I wrote a novel, let her know.

Man, I was double-pissed.

Didn't do much writing for a long, long time.

But I realized anger and bitterness get you nowhere.

Again: anger and bitterness get you nowhere.

Can't break into Marvel? There's always alternatives. I've chosen to go the self-publishing route. I understand that's how Brian Bendis broke into the industry.

I need to write. I have to write. So even if the only audience I can find for my stuff is a small group of family and friends, I'm going to keep doing this.

DBHughes, I know I'm risking that I'll catch hell for what I'm going to say next. But, if you need to write, then you need to learn to deal with rejection and with running into brick walls and with an industry that seems like it couldn't care less about you; and you need to learn to do it without descending into bitterness. And if you don't need to write badly enough that you can put up with the frustrations, better to walk away than to attempt to kick over the all the chairs in the room.

AndrewHickey

03-07-2006, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Why would anyone put themselves in a position where they faced an impossible task? If these people hold grammar and format to such a high standard, then why do they not require each applicant first take a pre-formatted English test? Through that method, it would be much easier to more fairly and consistently evaluate an applicant by those standards and would even be much more legally prudent given that stories would only be submitted by those "few" applicants who first sufficiently met these asinine grammar excuses.

But hey; guess none of the "professionals" are smart enough to think about that.

*sigh* Because that would take longer, require even more work, possibly put off *good* writers, and not put off the worst of the bunch who shotgun scripts out without paying any attention to whether they're wanted.

And you assume based on my comments here that I do not want to learn.

No, I make no such assumption about you. I'm talking about generalities - until this post I had no idea if you'd ever tried getting into writing at all, and that didn't affect my point...

I have studied; I have read; I have talked with "names". I have also submitted; I've been told on each occasion that the work is great and often even told that it is hard to believe the work has not yet been published.

Good for you. Keep at it.

Then each starts coming up with some flimsy excuse most submitters probably never hear. My favorite so far has been the Marvel e-mail that gushed about how good the work was only to close with "We are not accepting new characters at this time". Mind you, I had already stated I would sign any legal document put before me to give up all rights in any way, shape or form. Hell, I didn't even care about being paid for it.

So what's the lesson there? "Don't create new characters"? I have been given no lesson to learn.

The lesson there is to research your market in advance. I have no interest in writing for Marvel , but I did read their writers' guidelines back when they were looking at unsolicited submissions, and they stated very clearly that they weren't interested in new characters, but only in new ideas for their existing characters.
Look at what's *ACTUALLY* happened here. Marvel - the single biggest comic company in the world, one that currently doesn't take unsolicited writing submissions, and which doesn't even guarantee *solicited* submissions a reply unless they're interested - read your submission, liked it, and emailed back to tell you why they wouldn't take it on (a reason that you could have discovered *before* submitting).
Now, there are two ways to take this. One is to do as you've done, and get a massive chip on your shoulder about how there's a tiny clique trying to keep you out of comic writing. The other is to learn the lesson. If you really want to write for Marvel, only submit story ideas for Marvel characters. If a company was hiring computer programmers, and you were a plumber, would you complain that they wouldn't give you a job? You may be the best plumber in the world, but they don't want a plumber. Your story may be the best story ever written, but it's not got Spiderman or Wolverine in it. Either submit your story somewhere else or rewrite it so it can feature Marvel characters.

The only thing I have been often told is that no matter how good you are, the only thing anyone can do is self-publish. Hey, that's great; bankruptcy is fun. That's the only standard left - put your entire life on the line.

There's so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to begin. Off the top of my head Drawn & Quarterly, Fantagraphics, Dark Horse, Image, 2000AD and Avatar (as well as companies like Platinum which haven't published yet) are all reading unsolicited submissions. Any one of those will publish you if you've got something worth publishing that fits in their line.
Secondly, traditional self-publishing is not *THAT* expensive. It costs a few thousand US dollars to put out a couple of issues. Yes, that's a lot of money, but it's an amount most people on this board could find if they took a second job, took out a bank loan, or borrowed off friends (I probably couldn't, myself, afford it, but it's hardly the most expensive venture ever). And there are organisations like the Xeric foundation that will help you (if you live in North America). If you're really interested in that, get hold of a copy of The Cerebus Guide To Self-Publishing - Dave Sim managed to self-publish 300 issues of Cerebus and pretty much invent the trade paperback reprint market, so he knows what he's talking about.
Third, there are plenty of ways to get your work out there that cost *NO MONEY AT ALL*. Do it as a webcomic on a free site like comicgenesis.com . Every time you get 20 pages done stick it on a print-on-demand site like lulu.com . Voila! Your own comic, with a readership (if you're any good or know how to network) and no upfront cost to you *WHATSOEVER*.
Marvel and DC cannot stop you making comics, and if they don't want to publish you, that's their decision. You're not owed your own Marvel title. If you're actually interested in making comics as an artform, and don't just want to be 'famous' among fellow comic fans for writing Infinite Houses Of 52 Illuminati, then you'll do it...

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by DBHughes
So what is there to learn? What do I lose by shoving this stuff in the face of JMS or anyone like him?

One last bit of unsolicted advice. You actually risk losing quite a lot by shoving your anger in people's faces. Because your big break may be out there, waiting for you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not even a year from now. But it may be out there. But you won't find it by throwing tantrums.

I read about one successful writer (wish I could remember who it was!) who wallpapered an entire room with rejection letters he or she had received. But he or she kept at it and now they're in the business.

That could be you. Don't get in your own way like this. You're not hurting me, you're not hurting JMS, you're not hurting anyone but yourself. Just because your big break isn't readily apparent right now doesn't mean it isn't out there somewhere.

Lose the anger. Lose the bitterness. Just keep looking for your big break.

(Oh, and Andrew Hickey's right. Self-publishing's cheap these days. Hell, I'm living from paycheck to paycheck right now and have a massive load of debt hanging over me, but even I can afford it!)

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 10:32 AM

All of these issues are completely beside the point. If you live in Canada and you can't afford to go to any of the conventions in the United States, you have no chance to talk to any editors or writers to get your career started. And since Marvel and DC don't take any submissions, you can't mail them anything.

I'm not interested in going through all the trouble of self-publishing when I'm only concerned with writing Marvel characters. There's no place for you if you're like me and you are specifically interested in writing stories set in the Marvel Universe and involving their characters. I wouldn't be passionate about something I create to publish myself so it would be a waste of money. I'd rather use it to pay my expenses.

And forget about the convention every summer in Toronto, where I live. They only have segments for looking at artwork from people that want to be comic book illustrators. Marvel and DC don't bother with setting something up like this for writers. I guess they don't think there's any practical way to provide the longer time it would take to look at scripts. (They could make a rule that you have to write a script for one issue of a Marvel or DC comic, but you only show one or two pages of script and then the editor judges from there if they want to see the rest. This way the editors can decide who is worth spending more time with.)

Everything JMS wrote about is great, but it just isn't getting to the concrete, practical details of the obstacles involved. Why doesn't he comment on the policy of the company he works for that doesn't accept unsolicited submissions? Not every writer out there is at this beginning stage as far as their writing abilites or self-esteem go. For some, it might be these fundamental practical problems that get in the way.

It's extremely annoying to be closed off from being able to make submissions without that irritating condition that you have something published elsewhere first because of the thousands who aren't good enough, talented enough, smart enough, or dedicated enough to be publishable. Especially when you're not one of them.

AndrewHickey

03-07-2006, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Marvologist

I'm not interested in going through all the trouble of self-publishing when I'm only concerned with writing Marvel characters. There's no place for you if you're like me and you are specifically interested in writing stories set in the Marvel Universe and involving their characters. I wouldn't be passionate about something I create to publish myself so it would be a waste of money. I'd rather use it to pay my expenses.

If you're *ONLY* interested in writing those characters, chances are you've not actually got anything to say. If you've not got anything to say, why should they pay you to say it?
If you *have* got something to say, but for some reason it requires those characters, just do versions with the names filed off like Alan Moore's 1963 and Supreme stories. God knows enough 'original' characters are really just Spiderman anyway.

It's extremely annoying to be closed off from being able to make submissions without that irritating condition that you have something published elsewhere first because of the thousands who aren't good enough, talented enough, smart enough, or dedicated enough to be publishable. Especially when you're not one of them.

How do you know you're not one of them? You almost certainly are just by the law of averages, and if you can't come up with a single *original* idea of your own that's worth pursuing, that makes it all the more likely. You do not have a God-given right to write for Marvel comics.

BlakSun

03-07-2006, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Marvologist
It's extremely annoying to be closed off from being able to make submissions without that irritating condition that you have something published elsewhere...especially when you're not one of them.

you're kidding right? :rolleyes:

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 11:40 AM

If you *have* got something to say, but for some reason it requires those characters, just do versions with the names filed off like Alan Moore's 1963 and Supreme stories. God knows enough 'original' characters are really just Spiderman anyway.

I thought about that, but then it would just be called derivative or a cheesy rip off. But the bigger problem with that is, if I did a story with an analogue to something in Marvel, then that story would basically be done and I wouldn't be able to tell that story with the real character it was based on. John Byrne had this concern with the Challengers of the Unknown, when he felt that he had already done all the possible stories he could do with them in the Fantastic Four, so he didn't think he could write them. That's the kind of thing I want to avoid.

How do you know you're not one of them? You almost certainly are just by the law of averages ...

Answering that would essentially come down to having to prove it by demonstrating it with some actual writing, which I can't really do here. I don't expect anyone to take me at my word, I was just making the statement for myself to say how I felt in the situation I was describing. I wasn't trying to convince anyone I'm an exception.

... if you can't come up with a single *original* idea of your own that's worth pursuing, that makes it all the more likely. You do not have a God-given right to write for Marvel comics.

It's not coming up with original ideas that's the issue here, it's the fact that I want to apply them to the Marvel Universe. As you suggested, I could use my ideas in a variation on the Marvel world the way Busiek did with some aspects of Astro City, for example. I don't even need to necessarily do that. I could also write a science fiction novel or comic to deal with the plots and themes I want to depict without creating direct analogues. I could create my own fictional landscape involving general science fiction concepts, and not explicitly try to mimic anyone's characters or continuity. It's something I intend to do in a novel form anyway, I'm just saying there are certain stories I'd rather save for Marvel.

It was a bit misleading when I said I didn't want to create an original comic book to self-publish. I wasn't trying to imply that I didn't have ideas of my own, I was saying that I resented that we have to self-publish, even if you just want to deal directly with Marvel's fictional world itself.

I think there's a confusion here between my original ideas themselves (or unique variation on ideas), and the pre-existing characters and world I want to use. One part of the equation is original, one part is not. That's the important distinction.

As far as feeling that I have a God-given right to write for Marvel, I actually was feeling that way and didn't ever consciously recognize it until you said that. I think that if you have an extraordinary talent and imagination, and I'm talking about anyone who has does, you do have a God-given right. Or at least the opportunity to prove it. I know it may sound arrogant, but that's how I feel about it.

Nat Gertler

03-07-2006, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Marvologist
Everything JMS wrote about is great, but it just isn't getting to the concrete, practical details of the obstacles involved. Why doesn't he comment on the policy of the company he works for that doesn't accept unsolicited submissions? Not every writer out there is at this beginning stage as far as their writing abilites or self-esteem go. For some, it might be these fundamental practical problems that get in the way.In this case, the "practical" problems are of your own manufacturing. I understand your goal is to write Marvel characters, but the comics companies aren't in business to serve the needs of would-be writers. It's not incumbent on Marvel to open its doors to you; it's on you to make Marvel want your work. And how do you do that? By doing work that they will see.

For a good example, take a look at Robert Kirkman. He started off with his own self-published book (Battle Pope), followed that up with doing an original not-unMarvelesque superhero book (Invincible) and a zombie book (The Walking Dead). He's moved that into writing regularly in the Marvel universe, including writing zombies in the Marvel U and even having his own character step into the Marvel U. To get what we want, we often have to do things we don't want.

(Having said that, I would caution against pinning one's dreams on writing a certain set of characters or working for a certain company. Folks who take that route tend to wind up disappointed and feeling ill used even when they achieve their original goal. Seeking to be a writer gives you more flexibility and opportunity than seeking to be a comic book writer, and moreso if you limit yourself to a fraction of the comics field.)

The Shadow

03-07-2006, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Marvologist
All of these issues are completely beside the point. If you live in Canada and you can't afford to go to any of the conventions in the United States, you have no chance to talk to any editors or writers to get your career started. And since Marvel and DC don't take any submissions, you can't mail them anything. Yeah that's a fairly good point actually... I wonder if JMS or JoeQ have any suggestions.

Originally posted by Marvologist
And forget about the convention every summer in Toronto, where I live. Are you talking about the SFX con? I went to that 3 years in a row and had a BLAST!! I wasn't submitting anything... just getting autographs, comics and some cool pictures.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 11:47 AM

No, I wasn't. What do you mean? (Not a sarcastic question. I always feel like everything can come off that way because of all the trolls who write in that way on message forums.) Call me blind to my own arrogance, if that's what it sounds like.

AndrewHickey

03-07-2006, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Marvologist
I could create my own fictional landscape involving general science fiction concepts, and not explicitly try to mimic anyone's characters or continuity. It's something I intend to do in a novel form anyway, I'm just saying there are certain stories I'd rather save for Marvel.

So do that first. Write your novel and, if it's good enough, Marvel will be begging *you* to write for *them*...

As far as feeling that I have a God-given right to write for Marvel, I actually was feeling that way and didn't ever consciously recognize it until you said that. I think that if you have an extraordinary talent and imagination, and I'm talking about anyone who has does, you do have a God-given right. Or at least the opportunity to prove it. I know it may sound arrogant, but that's how I feel about it.

So take the opportunities that *are* there. There is a very clear, simple path to go from where you are to 'writer for Marvel'. What you're saying is that it's OK for everyone else who wants to do that to have to walk down that path, but not you, because you're special. Well, ____ that. You have to *prove* you're special by actually *doing something*. Otherwise, you're just the same as every other loser posting on these boards (and I emphatically include myself in that).
Breaking into comics isn't impossible, it's just hard. And if you don't want to do some hard work, that's no-one's fault but your own.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 11:54 AM

I guess you're right. But I don't think the system should work that way. It's fine if you want to create your own characters and do your own stories by self-publishing them or working with a small company, but I don't like this process by which you have no choice but to do this even if you are only interested in Marvel's or DC's superheroes.

Nat Gertler

03-07-2006, 12:02 PM

Kevin Street

03-07-2006, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
...Off the top of my head Drawn & Quarterly, Fantagraphics, Dark Horse, Image, 2000AD and Avatar (as well as companies like Platinum which haven't published yet) are all reading unsolicited submissions. Any one of those will publish you if you've got something worth publishing that fits in their line.

Please, be careful when you make statements like this, because a lot of aspiring writers might read the talkback and get false hope. So far as I know, Dark Horse no longer reads unsolicited submissions, Image, Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly only look at submissions with art attached, and Platinum has yet to publish anything, so something dodgy may be going on there.

According to their websites Avatar and 2000AD are willing to look at submissions, but you have to read the relevant sections on their websites carefully before sending anything because each has specific requirements. The market for spec scripts (and new writers) in the comic book field is very, very small, so it's probably best to not hope for much when you submit. Breaking into comics is kind of like winning the lottery, imo. If you're looking to make a career for yourself as a professional writer, it's better to try to try other types of writing that are more friendly to newbies and not put too much hope on the comic thing. It might be fun to take a chance with a couple of submissions, but a chance is all it will be.

AndrewHickey

03-07-2006, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Marvologist
I guess you're right. But I don't think the system should work that way. It's fine if you want to create your own characters and do your own stories by self-publishing them or working with a small company, but I don't like this process by which you have no choice but to do this even if you are only interested in Marvel's or DC's superheroes.

And I don't like that my band have to play tiny pub venues for years when all I really want to do is duet with Paul McCartney. You know what? I *can't even find his phone number out*! I think it's terrible when talented people such as myself, with rare, special, unique talents are prevented from duetting with Paul McCartney when that's all they really want to do.
Again, I wanted to star in Stephen Spielberg's latest film. Could I? No! He didn't even have the decency to email me to arrange an audition time, fly to England and come to my house to see my audition! It seems that if you want to star in a Spielberg film you must have 'acting experience' (whatever *that* means) and you must be able to actually travel to LA for an audition! Great talents like myself are being kept down by The Man and I, for one, will not stand for it any more!

AndrewHickey

03-07-2006, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Street
Please, be careful when you make statements like this, because a lot of aspiring writers might read the talkback and get false hope. So far as I know, Dark Horse no longer reads unsolicited submissions, Image, Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly only look at submissions with art attached, and Platinum has yet to publish anything, so something dodgy may be going on there.

My apologies - last time I looked at Dark Horse's site (several months back) they *were* accepting unsolicited submissions. And I probably should have made it plainer that the other three you mention want an artist attached (I did say that Platinum haven't published yet).
I was talking specifically about alternatives to self-publishing, and obviously if one is going to self-publish a comic (or do a webcomic as I also suggested) then one needs art as well as words. But I agree my wording can be misinterpreted.

CrankyViking

03-07-2006, 12:18 PM

Man, all the vehemence on this board is just begging for Harlan Ellison to toss in his hat at this point.

JMS, you've got him on speed dial, don't you?

Just a sidebar, but I wonder how some editors must feel, dealing almost on a daily basis with those people who insist that they are the next big thing, and how it would be a horrible mistake to not look at his/her work. I imagine it must get depressing/annoying after a while.

Well, I've decided that I'm going the self-publishing route. Comixpress.net has a fairly good deal going on printing, and I'm going to try and knock out a book by the San Diego Con. Granted, I have a full-time job, so my spare time is somewhat limited. If I can pull it off, though, I'll post on these boards, and those who are interested and will be at the con I shall set up a time and place where you can check it out.

It's finally time for me to step up to the plate. Or, as Conan put it, "enough talk!"

AndrewHickey

03-07-2006, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by CrankyViking

Well, I've decided that I'm going the self-publishing route. Comixpress.net has a fairly good deal going on printing, and I'm going to try and knock out a book by the San Diego Con. Granted, I have a full-time job, so my spare time is somewhat limited. If I can pull it off, though, I'll post on these boards, and those who are interested and will be at the con I shall set up a time and place where you can check it out.

It's finally time for me to step up to the plate. Or, as Conan put it, "enough talk!"

Good for you!
I'm slowly but surely getting my graphic novel/webcomic thing done myself in the VERY little time I have off work (today I'm off ill, hence the constant comments here), and it's good to know that eventually I will have something I can show and tell people "This is all my work. Those pictures, the words, the lettering, I did all that. "
Won't make any money out of it, but I'll have created a piece of art I can be proud of (same as when I self-released several albums) and that feeling's at least as good as being the new writer for Fin Fang Foom or whatever...

BlakSun

03-07-2006, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Marvologist
No, I wasn't. What do you mean? (Not a sarcastic question. I always feel like everything can come off that way because of all the trolls who write in that way on message forums.) Call me blind to my own arrogance, if that's what it sounds like.

I see... :confused:

For you, and other "writers" out there with your mentality, I wish you well.

If you're not willing to slog it out and pay your dues in the biz, there's nothing more I can say.

TCJohnson

03-07-2006, 12:29 PM

And forget about the convention every summer in Toronto, where I live. They only have segments for looking at artwork from people that want to be comic book illustrators. Marvel and DC don't bother with setting something up like this for writers. I guess they don't think there's any practical way to provide the longer time it would take to look at scripts.

I just want to point out the reason why they don't do this.

Let's say you show them a writer a script to get his input. Now, 10 years down the line this writer might be trying to come up with his own idea for a script. Now enough time has passed that he doesn't remember your script from the convention, but your idea sticks in his subconscious and years later he writes a story based on this idea. The writer or editor (and most editors are writers at one point or another) is not intentionally plagerizing you. It is all done subconsciously, nothing malicious is intended. But if you can prove that you showed this writer your script at a convention and there is enough in common with your current story, you can sue that writer.

One of my favorite writers, Terry Pratchett, created a world called the Discworld for his novels. He NEVER reads Discworld fanfiction for this purpose. He gives his fans permission to write fanfiction as long as they don't make money off of it, but he will never read it. Yet several years ago he wrote a novel where the core idea was very close to a piece of fanfiction that somebody wrote. The writer of the fan fiction tried to sue Terry Pratchett for stealing his idea. The lawsuit failed because the fanfic writer could not prove that Terry Pratchett read the fanfic.

Berke Breathed did a Bloom County comic strip that was extremely close to a Doonesbury comic strip published before Breathed created Bloom County. Breathed, who is a huge fan of Doonesbury, did not intentionally copy that strip. But he admits to reading it and loving it...and years later he forgot the source material and copied the strip thinking it was his own original idea. In this case Breathed publically apologized and there was not enough money involved to make a lawsuit worth it.

Finally there is something about a writer submitting a series pilot to Paramont, and a year later Paramont created Deep Space 9 which was very close to the series pilot done by the poor, not very wise writer whose name completely slips my mind but that is ok cause this writer probably died a lonely, well-deserved alcoholic death. (I am kidding!!!!!! I loved Babylon 5!!!)

Anyway, it is situations like this that prevent writers and editors looking at unsolicited scripts, they are protecting themselves from lawsuits. ANd I can't really blame them.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 12:37 PM

I understand, but I thought that's what those legal forms are for, the ones Marvel now uses if they agree to read a script from someone who has sent a query letter. I don't remember what they're called. It's a legal document that prevents you from suing anyone for the very reasons you state.

I wish they would just use those at the conventions.

TCJohnson

03-07-2006, 12:49 PM

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Marvologist
I understand, but I thought that's what those legal forms are for, the ones Marvel now uses if they agree to read a script from someone who has sent a query letter. I don't remember what they're called. It's a legal document that prevents you from suing anyone for the very reasons you state.

I wish they would just use those at the conventions.

Marvologist, you and I are in a similar position. When I recently looked at the submissions guidelines set forth by Marvel, I was dismayed to learn that they now only want to look at material from already-published writers.

I know other people have tried to explain why, and I can see that these aren't explanations you're prepared to accept. So here's another way of putting it, from one "wanna-be" to another: it is how it is, and you don't have to like it.

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong.

As far as your remarks about "resenting" having to go to the "trouble" of self-publishing, I can only reply that any creative endeavor entails a lot of "trouble" on the part of a creator. It's how things are. You may as well resent the rain, my friend.

There are always alternatives. All of the "reasons" you've come up with for not exploring those alternatives are merely excuses. If you want to write, if you want to create, you'll find a way.

Making excuses about why you can't write is a poor substitute for sitting down and doing it. If you truly want to write, stop making excuses and do it. If you look deep down into your soul and can't find the will to do that, stop pretending you want to be a writer and walk away from it. Find something else that's fulfilling and commit to that.

Honestly, it's that simple.

Your fellow wanna-be,
Bill M.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 01:03 PM

I don't agree at all with this system of paying your dues. I agree that you should have to work hard and be willing to do everything that's necessary to prove yourself and get whatever position you deserve in the business, I just don't think you should have to follow this specific path of self-publishing. Ideally, Marvel and DC should provide a more direct approach to working with writers. That's all I'm saying. Ideally. Don't read into my statements more than it is actually implying. I can see how my messages might have sounded, to some people, as though I was saying I should just be able to walk right into Marvel and do whatever I want, but I never directly stated such a thing, so you shouldn't assume that was my intention.

I was saying that potential writers should have the chance to prove, one way or another, whether or not they deserve to write for Marvel or DC without going about it in an indirect path. Ideally. I realized Nat Gertler is right, Marvel and DC should not be obligated to do this. They don't owe anybody this right. I'm just saying I think they should. If they don't want to for whatever reason, then fine.

Why the heck is it okay for Marvel, and DC at conventions, to accept unsolicited artwork, DIRECTLY from the artist, without the artist spending time and money going through the process of self-publishing, or having to do anything else that they must state in a query letter before being given permission to send their work as is the procedure for writers, but if a writer wants the same thing, that's called not wanting to pay your dues and slog it out. Or it's ridiculed by people like Andrew Hickey. What the hell is the difference? Apart from the time it takes to look at artwork versus a writing sample? Marvel used to just look at one-page plot synopses anyway. And I'm just saying they should look at a few pages of script instead. I'm not suggesting an editor has to go through the time-consuming procedure of reading full scripts from thousands of people. An artist can send several pages of illustrations, and even though you can see the overall quality and impact of an image immediately, you can still spend some more time analyzing it further to look at all the technical merits of the artwork. So it seems roughly, if not exactly, equivalent to me.

It just doesn't make any sense to me. As an artist you can go directly to Marvel if you want, but as a writer you have to "pay your dues".

Not From Around

03-07-2006, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Street
Now, I'm not saying that the companies "owe" writers anything or that they need to teach people how to write - that would be stupid. But there really should be some kind of policy at the big companies to review unsolicited submissions, because that would help the industry grow. Look at the fiction magazines. They go through hundreds of spec stories a month, and the writers they discover in the slush pile later go on to enrich and renew the publishing industry. If comics had that same kind of entry point, they wouldn't be so dependent upon writers from other fields.

It WOULD be the decent thing to do. But given how many self-publishers and small-pressers there are out there, the Big Two may be pretty confident of continuing to have a talent pool to draw upon with no undue talent-nurturing effort on their part. They probably see themselves as being at the top of a Darwinian chain, with the fittest surviving the small press struggle to arrive at the ultimate development--good Batman and X-Men writers. That may be hubris on their part, but dominating your field for many years will do that to you.

Actually the Big Two's Big Question is not how will they find talent so much as what will they do with it. For the most part the answer is to keep the talent going back to the superhero properties wells that they drilled many years ago. If and when those wells finally go dry and Marvel and DC wear out their welcome and collapse, that will be the main reason why. It will not be a failure to find talent, but a failure to make the best possible use of it.

TCJohnson

03-07-2006, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Marvologist
And I'm just saying they should look at a few pages of script instead.

I am told I have a great writing style. Mood, theme, dialogue, description...I am told I am really good at all of that. I am absolutely terrible at plot structure, however. And pacing, I have yet to get the hang of pacing. I just don't get pacing yet.

If I were to show editors just a few pages of script, I am pretty sure I can impress them with my dialogue. They would not be able to identify my problems with plotting and pacing from a few pages, however.

I know when Dwayne McDuffie used to run....damn, can't remember the name of his company. But when he was hiring new artists, he would give them a four page script and tell them to illustrate the script. Based on what he got back he could tell if people had what it took to be a comic book artist.

That is an easy mechinism to judge art. There is not an easy way to judge writing. You can't say, Here is a plot, script it. One of the things that writers are judged on are their own ideas. And those ideas can be too easily stolen, as I am sure JMS can testify to.

Jason A. Quest

03-07-2006, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by hgpc
Being a comic writer isn't wanting to write for DC or Marvel.Amen! Like the cliche says, a writer writes.

I can certainly understand the desire to write Super-Spider or the X-Bats; I'd like a crack at them myself. But someone who really wants to write comics really oughta have more ideas in their head than just what to do with those characters, and oughta be willing - nay, eager - to get them out through whatever venues they can. JMS and the other non-comics writers who are "poaching" the DC/Marvel turf are prime examples of that. Even the ones who say they've always wanted to write so-and-so also spent a lot of time writing a lot of other stuff.

Jason A. Quest

03-07-2006, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
If you are pouring through scripts looking for grammatical mistakes and formatting issues, then you are not "reading" scripts. And if you think that JMS said that's what they did, then you're not reading. At least not very well. He said "we found only one that was suitably professional in appearance and storytelling techniques to buy". If you think they wasted time proofreading them, you're insane.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 01:47 PM

These things you're saying are not a direct analogy.
I'm not asking Joe Quesada to come to my home and read my writing in the living room. He doesn't have to email me. You can mail a script to any editor, it doesn't have to be the top guy in charge, but you can't mail your audition. So the two situations are not equivalent. That's where your anaology breaks down. It's a lot simpler with writing than with acting. Or maybe even music, I don't know.

Marvel and DC were able to look at submissions in the past. What's the big deal about that? They just don't choose to do it now. At least on an unsolicited basis. But if Marvel accepts a query letter from you for whatever reason, you can just put your script in the mail and that's it. It doesn't require anything dramatic.

But your general idea is that pursuing any artistic endeavour is difficult, and that's fine. I know, there are obstacles. But I just don't think it has to be as problematic as it is where writing for comics is concerned. That's all I'm saying.

With some of the things you've said, including the Paul McCartney thing, you seem to have gotten the impression that I should just get something special that no one else should, and that I should just be put at the top without doing anything to prove I deserve it. If you reread my first reply to you, you'll see that I said that I think ANYONE with the skill deserves the chance at getting a top spot, not just me. So don't skip over things I've said in order to give me your sarcastic nastiness.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 01:51 PM

Okay, good point.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 01:57 PM

But someone who really wants to write comics really oughta have more ideas in their head than just what to do with those characters

According to you and hgpc. I understand what you're saying, but I don't see why that has to necessarily be the case. Why should that rule be set for everyone? This is just your opinion that is also shared by others. But is this unquestionably true in principle? Why does there have to be a rule like this?

BlakSun

03-07-2006, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Marvologist
I don't agree at all with this system of paying your dues....
It just doesn't make any sense to me.

good luck

Not From Around

03-07-2006, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Bill Myers
But I realized anger and bitterness get you nowhere.

Again: anger and bitterness get you nowhere.

Can't break into Marvel? There's always alternatives. I've chosen to go the self-publishing route. I understand that's how Brian Bendis broke into the industry.

I need to write. I have to write. So even if the only audience I can find for my stuff is a small group of family and friends, I'm going to keep doing this.

That's the spirit! Being able to create is its own reward. If you've got family and friends who like what you do, you've already got a lot.

I took you up on the constructive criticism challenge. Check your blog. I hope it helps, and I hope others will also offer their 2-cents' worth.

Wormwood

03-07-2006, 02:03 PM

Marvelogist: A shot at the top spot needs to be earned. You don't get to pitch for the Yankees right off the street. Good writing earns attention, period. If your writing desires are so narrow of focus that ONLY licensed characters are something you can write, you may want to step back and think about what you're writing.

I mean, the point of the article isn't that the door to the master bedroom is locked. It's that it isn't the same door as the front door. And that there is no secret passage to get inside.

Wormwood

03-07-2006, 02:08 PM

DBHughes:

I'm curious, have you ever been in a situation where you've had to read Open Submissions? A theatre company I worked with held an open call for scripts for a festival, and we got over a hundred. And EASILY 75% of them were downright unreadable. I'm not talking about "oh the grammar and spelling aren't perfect", I mean the writing was just bad. Unpenetrable. Tree spirits cried for the paper wasted on these. If you have ever done that, you would not be so quick to judge.

BlakSun

03-07-2006, 02:09 PM

Blast-Off

03-07-2006, 02:27 PM

I'll throw in my two cents on the topic of work and paying dues. When I was in high school I decided I really wanted to be an actor. I went to the University of Utah's actor's training program for 4 long years. I then moved out L.A. to try and make it big. I auditioned constantly and also tried to get representation. I worked at this for 3 years before it was no longer financially possible for me to be out there. Other than a line in Pleasantville that got cut and a couple plays and background T.V. spots I had nothing to show for my time out in California. I tried though. I played by the rules of Hollywood, so I feel no shame in not succeeding. That's just how it happens. I never got to audition for any big movies because I hadn't had any experience and that is ok with me. Maybe I could have made it if I could have stayed out there longer, who knows? The point I guess I'm trying to make is that you can't use living in Canada or submission guidelines as valid excuses for not being able to make it in writing. I traveled thousands of miles and faced almost constant rejection for 3 years. Maybe I wasn't good enough but at least I tried instead of moaning about how hard it is to break in to the business. So, there you go.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 02:29 PM

I'm not focusing on Marvel anyway. I want to write for them, but I'm concentrating on other things. I wouldn't give up writing just because of Marvel, I was just saying that I, personally, am not interested in writing other comics, and having to do that to get into Marvel. I'd rather write novels and short stories for other markets.

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Marvologist
I'm not focusing on Marvel anyway. I want to write for them, but I'm concentrating on other things. I wouldn't give up writing just because of Marvel, I was just saying that I, personally, am not interested in writing other comics, and having to do that to get into Marvel. I'd rather write novels and short stories for other markets.

I hope you don't mind if I make a suggestion, then: focus on writing novels and short stories for other markets, and don't waste one iota of time -- not one second -- complaining about Marvel's submissions policies. Because life's too short and if you really want to write, you need to devote every shred of time and drop of energy you can to doing it.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 02:37 PM

quote:Originally posted by Marvologist
I don't agree at all with this system of paying your dues....
It just doesn't make any sense to me.

good luck

I realize you think that my last sentence is essentially tied to the first statement, but that is still blatantly taking the full explanation of what I meant out of context. TCJohnson is the only one that addressed my point about the difference between artists and writers.

Nat Gertler

03-07-2006, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Street
and Platinum has yet to publish anything, so something dodgy may be going on there.However, relevant to those wanting to write: they have indeed paid writers, and I've yet to hear from anyone who has done work for them who has not gotten the agreed payment.

--Nat (writer, The Proxy (http://platinumstudios.com/titles/proxy.php), Platinum Studios)

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Not From Around
That's the spirit! Being able to create is its own reward. If you've got family and friends who like what you do, you've already got a lot.

I took you up on the constructive criticism challenge. Check your blog. I hope it helps, and I hope others will also offer their 2-cents' worth.

Thank you. You've really made my day! :)

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 02:49 PM

Marvelogist: A shot at the top spot needs to be earned. You don't get to pitch for the Yankees right off the street.

Fine, but that still doesn't address the comparison I made between the way it works for writers and artists who can directly submit to Marvel's office. To paraphrase, artists CAN get a CHANCE to pitch for the Yankees right off the street. So that shows that it is possible for things to work that way, IN COMICS. I know there are some big differences in evaluating an artist's work over a writer's, along with legal implications that are different. I just don't understand if that really has to be the end of that possibility. I don't know if there is a way around the inherent problems with writers submissions or not. I just don't feel any effort is put into dealing with that.

This is not sports we're talking here. It's not exactly the same. You can't just make a simplistic comparison like that between industries and assume the procedures for getting in are all exactly the same.

I think my concern deserves a little more consideration than to just be shut down by one brief little comparison to the way it works in sports.

Marvologist

03-07-2006, 02:52 PM

You're right. I'm done.

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Blast-Off
Maybe I wasn't good enough but at least I tried instead of moaning about how hard it is to break in to the business. So, there you go.

Hold your head up high. I mean really high. It's infinitely better to have tried and failed than never to have tried.

You have my sincerest admiration, for whatever that's worth.

NinjaCell

03-07-2006, 03:21 PM

Wow. Thanks.

TCJohnson

03-07-2006, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Blast-Off
Maybe I wasn't good enough but at least I tried instead of moaning about how hard it is to break in to the business. So, there you go.

Are you still trying, with local theater and all?

Blast-Off

03-07-2006, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Bill Myers
Hold your head up high. I mean really high. It's infinitely better to have tried and failed than never to have tried.

You have my sincerest admiration, for whatever that's worth.

Well, thanks for the kind words. I just hope others see that you really have to put yourself out there if you even want to have a small chance of making it.

Blast-Off

03-07-2006, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by TCJohnson
Are you still trying, with local theater and all?

I had for awhile. Now I live in Denver and the theater community isn't quite as thriving as I'd like.

Spaz_Monkey

03-07-2006, 03:31 PM

For everyone who wants to write, may I suggest National Novel Writing Month (http://www.nanowrimo.org). 30 Days, the month of November, to write 50,000 words. Even if you don't complete the book, you'll know if writing is in your future, or if plumbing is the way to go.

And no, it doesn't need to be a novel. Write that comic, TV Show or movie script you've got in your head. Go for it! Don't let the man hold you down. If you careate something you're proud of, and other people (not just mom) think it's a good story, pitch it to Image. If anyone would be willing to take a chance on an unknown creator, it would be them.

Not From Around

03-07-2006, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Blast-Off
I'll throw in my two cents on the topic of work and paying dues. When I was in high school I decided I really wanted to be an actor. I went to the University of Utah's actor's training program for 4 long years. I then moved out L.A. to try and make it big. I auditioned constantly and also tried to get representation. I worked at this for 3 years before it was no longer financially possible for me to be out there. Other than a line in Pleasantville that got cut and a couple plays and background T.V. spots I had nothing to show for my time out in California. I tried though. I played by the rules of Hollywood, so I feel no shame in not succeeding. That's just how it happens. I never got to audition for any big movies because I hadn't had any experience and that is ok with me. Maybe I could have made it if I could have stayed out there longer, who knows? The point I guess I'm trying to make is that you can't use living in Canada or submission guidelines as valid excuses for not being able to make it in writing. I traveled thousands of miles and faced almost constant rejection for 3 years. Maybe I wasn't good enough but at least I tried instead of moaning about how hard it is to break in to the business. So, there you go.

You did better than I did. I spent six years paying my dues in graduate school trying to earn a PhD in history. I learned an awful lot and had a few rewarding experiences teaching. But in the long run my dissertation was not accepted. I also realized that the overcrowded college job market would almost certainly never have a place for me anyway (There are people with PhDs who can't get permanent teaching jobs at two-year colleges!). At least actors and writers are told ahead of time that they're taking a gamble in a hugely overcrowded field. I was not told that the field I was entering was such a field so that I could make an informed choice.

I was very bitter for a long time about all the effort and sacrifice I had put into that failed career for nothing. Now that my second career has at long last worked out (that took several years of dues paying as well--little did I know when I started working in the library to make ends meet as a grad student that I'd end up doing it for a living!) I've been able to let that go. It makes life a lot better. And even at the worst times, I always had a goal beyond the struggling career--to live the life God wanted me to live and follow God's direction. That's a goal one can pursue no matter what happens to job, career, or whatever.

TCJohnson

03-07-2006, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Blast-Off
I had for awhile. Now I live in Denver and the theater community isn't quite as thriving as I'd like.

Ok. As somebody who used to work in film, I got respect for going as far as you did. I just hope you still have outlets to express your acting talents.

DBHughes

03-07-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by straczynski
By that I mean...many of the 3,000 scripts that were submitted (at the TZ and elsewhere) were written in nearly-illegible handwriting, on lined paper, and read like this

The man sees her. Hello. They talk. He says he wants "her out." They RUN to the door, "What do you mean?"

THAT'S what I'm talking about when I say something is not put together professionally.

I see that more "experts" have now jumped in to claim I wasn't "reading" your initial column, so let's cover that first. When I originally responded to the "suitably professional in appearance and storytelling techniques" statement, I said the following:

Basically what the above says is that no one was looking for a good narrative, story or idea; the team was instead looking for professional appearance and storytelling techniques (whatever that means).

Other "experts" turned it into a grammar issue, and I saw no reason to protest that conclusion. After all, I have repeatedly heard from people in JMS's position that scripts are rejected for poor grammar, a misspelled word or a lack of an indention.

The "arm-chair professional" can take this for what you want; but those of us who do not worship JMS look at words and actions like normal people would. JMS says they opened submissions and received 3,000 entries. Then JMS used the "1" acceptable as an example of "what's out there". I do not believe it takes a stretch to conclude JMS was talking about writing talent when he referenced "what's out there".

Addressing JMS from here on out, I would cite that there are elements you skip over in that "1 in 3000" conclusion"; and you skew the results in kind. How was this open submission process advertised? Was a notice placed in locations where writers would look? Was it a note in small print in the closing credits of the broadcast episode? Or is it fact that there was no advertisement at all? Was the "open submissions" policy just deciding to look at scripts which were coming in anyway?

No matter what is true, the point is that you get what you seek. If it was not advertised properly, then of course you will get very few stories from actual writers who want to tell a story; most of your submissions would be from Twilight Zone fans who just want to say they wrote a Twilight Zone story. If you have no realistic qualification process (other than "you have to be published to get published"); then of course you are going to get many, many bad submissions to shore up your own strawman argument that there is very little in the public pool of writers worth finding.

There are many ways to go about things without an elitist mentality; but none of them are observed in the field of writing. Instead, we hear "it's always been done this way, so play ball." Under that mentality, we would still have slavery, debtor's prisons and the "scarlet letter" 'cuz don'cha know, we done it that der way long as I 'kin recollect.

Now, I could go into more ideas of how to make it a better process; but it's going to be a waste of time. Each idea always receives the response that I am unfairly excluding people. Yes, I am. I try to design a system to save people like JMS the trouble of excluding them later so that real writers can get the proper attention; I try to cut through the excuses and examples professionals hide behind. However, the "professional" drum beat is always that "We have to exclude people at a glance to be able to get through these things, but we also have to be fair and not exclude people from submitting!" What? It's talking out of both sides of your mouth; and it is exactly what is wrong. The people in power do not want to accept truly new writers, and they will contradict themselves over and over again in the mad dash to find any excuse to back that up. You have to be "in the club" first; and the only way to get in the club is to be in the club.

In any case, I will close with this; I planted a little bait of my own. The "new" character excuse Marvel used? It was a new character in the tradition of Friendly Neighbor Spider-man #5; Busiek's break-through "Marvels" and Millar's upcoming "1985." The new character was simply a new perspective; it was a throw-away character in order to service a single story meant to spin a different view on some beliefs that a popular, long standing Marvel character can at times be a little weepy and soft. The story was meant to show that being weepy and soft is often a sign of much more strength than aggression provides. Ironic, no?

In any case, want to read the story I'm mentioned? Here it is. After many previous rejections of stories and scripts, what was I told on this specific script again? Personal e-mail from the editor the day the below script was received via overnight Fed Ex. The editor loved it, but couldn't accept due to the "new character". You say I should have nicely asked if I could rework the script or pitch further ideas and scripts? I did; no response.

And no, I have no desire to use the below story outside of Marvel; and it's already theirs anyway because of the signed legal form.

http://www.geocities.com/androsss_2000/Unlimited_X.doc

The entire thing was designed to get positive press attention to a title that sells hardly nothing anyway. Of course, that is when Unlimited was supposedly the venue for new talent. I guess C.B. Cebulski now qualifies as "new" along with people who have written novels, long running columns, etc.

I expect no fair review of my script here (most of you just want to prove some "point" to justify your own career); but hopefully it at least shows I am not one of the 2,999 garden variety idiots JMS would have you believe are out there in ratio 2,999 to 1. Hell, the Marvel submission of which I am most proud is not even the script linked above. The submission to Marvel I am proud of had a full art team attached and was essentially a comic book submitted (the first line of the submission letter saying that we were not package deal; Marvel could pick and choose who they wanted to keep from the team if they wanted anyone at all). Do you know what I was told by Marvel and even several arm chair "experts" while I was nice as could be? I was told they thought the submission was great, but I did too much work in putting it together. I was rejected for DOING TOO MUCH WORK. Gee whiz, sorry I threatened the lazy assholes by showing what someone could do if they cared about more than money or their name in lights.

The bottom line? JMS is not giving a picture of reality here; and I expect him and others to come back with many more justifications for how what every professional did in this scenario was right. There is no reward for persistence. There is no reward for talent. You can not even just pay your part to publish something or work without pay; you have to bite off every expense and relevant job role (accountant, print setter, etc.) just to be a writer. The process is 100% luck; and the odds are better that you would win the lottery 26 times in a row. Outside of being filthy, stinking rich or selling your soul as you kiss someone's ass raw, your only option is to risk the well being of your life on one gamble that a professional will one day accidentally pick up your self-published book and be tricked into thinking you're already "in the club" because the book was published. It's lunacy.

I don't want to be rich; I don't want my name in lights; I just want to tell some god-damned stories without having to worry about protecting legal rights when one of the no-talent assholes in this thread use "cut and paste" on their word processor to turn a quick dime. Doesn't happen you say? HA!

I would give up all of it just for that actual legal protection on even one issue. At least my name would be there as writer for that one issue; and I could keep from eating out of a garbage can in the process. Even that minimalist approach is too much to ask. In fact, professionals most often say in response that my "total sacrifice" offer will never be accepted because they're trying to "help me". Bull. ____. It's still a rejection with no published work.

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
The process is 100% luck; and the odds are better that you would win the lottery 26 times in a row. Outside of being filthy, stinking rich or selling your soul as you kiss someone's ass raw, your only option is to risk the well being of your life on one gamble that a professional will one day accidentally pick up your self-published book and be tricked into thinking you're already "in the club" because the book was published. It's lunacy.

I'm afraid you're wrong. I know people employed in the entertainment industry, and it's not 100% luck. A lot of it is persistence. If you keep playing the odds, eventually your number comes up. But sometimes it takes years. Lots of years.

Ironically, people like you who respond to adversity with resentment and unproductive tantrums make room for those who stay the course despite the challenges they face.

I am a wanna-be, like you. I know the frustrations you're feeling. But your tantrums are doing nothing more than establishing a horrible reputation for yourself. Were I an editor reading this thread, I wouldn't go anywhere near you having read what you've written.

So you got a positive comment from a Marvel editor? More than I've ever gotten! How do you know that isn't a glimmer of hope that someday, somewhere, there isn't a big break for you?

You don't know.

I mean it.

You. Don't. Know.

But I can guarantee you if you keep throwing tantrums, you will deny yourself the chance to ever find that break. Meaning your big break will go to someone else.

Originally posted by DBHughes
I don't want to be rich; I don't want my name in lights; I just want to tell some god-damned stories without having to worry about protecting legal rights when one of the no-talent assholes in this thread use "cut and paste" on their word processor to turn a quick dime. Doesn't happen you say? HA!.

Dunno if I'm one of the @$$holes you're referring to, but frankly, your tirades are beginning to sound like a sour grapes defense in reaction to the hurt of rejection.

It's your life, DBHughes. You can spend it consumed with anger if you wish. I just don't see the point.

Me, I may spend the rest of my life being a "wanna-be." But I'm having a lot of fun just trying to break in. The attempt itself is worth it.

Or to put it another way, the journey's more important than the destination.

mpg

03-07-2006, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Wormwood
Marvelogist: A shot at the top spot needs to be earned. You don't get to pitch for the Yankees right off the street. Good writing earns attention, period. If your writing desires are so narrow of focus that ONLY licensed characters are something you can write, you may want to step back and think about what you're writing.

I mean, the point of the article isn't that the door to the master bedroom is locked. It's that it isn't the same door as the front door. And that there is no secret passage to get inside.

I feel like this sports analogy is spot on.

Baseball has no shortage of position players, but really really has a need for pitching

Basketball has plenty of guards and forwards, but really really has a need for centers.

Comic book companies have no shortage of writers, and has more of need for artists.

DBHughes

03-07-2006, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Bill Myers
So you got a positive comment from a Marvel editor? More than I've ever gotten! How do you know that isn't a glimmer of hope that someday, somewhere, there isn't a big break for you?

You don't know.

I mean it.

You. Don't. Know.

And you don't know if unicorns exist or not; devote your life to that cause. What in God's name else can I do? It's not like I sent one submission and had a hissy fit. It's not like I was always flat rejected. I'm just supposed to keep playing the role of a fool and wishing on something THEY CLEARLY DON'T WANT TO HAPPEN? Then you have JMS popping on to build up more hopes with fluffy ________ that isn't based in one shred of reality or rational thought. If JMS and the like don't want to actually help, then shut the hell up. Close open submissions to Marvel if all you will accept is people already published in some form (as has been shown clearly from before Epic, during Epic and after Epic). Why is there a tease? What sadisitic joy are these assholes getting out of it? They won't attempt to fix the system; they won't attempt to make it more plausible for people who can write; they like to watch people fall down. They like to say 2,999 people out of 3,000 are just above being mentally retarded. It's cruel.

No one like you wants to try change the system; they are scared out of their minds. They limp around at conventions treating these professionals like they were handed down; and the professionals sneer if you don't do it. Heaven forbid anyone get angry about something. In kind, JMS should shut his mouth about Babylon 5 being stolen by Star Trek producers. How professional is that little tyraid? Is Harlan Ellison a _____-cat? That man eats people for breakfast as he's proven time again with people like Gene Roddenberry, James Cameron,etc. From what I hear, Harlan is a great guy with friends; but I've never seen him characterized as kissing someone's ass.

Good for the gander, but not the goose. When people like JMS "make it", they become in-human in my opinion. They live in a dream world with no restrictions on themselves; the restriction is on everyone else.

But I can guarantee you if you keep throwing tantrums, you will deny yourself the chance to ever find that break. Meaning your big break will go to someone else.

Daniel Way (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=001701) can talk about ____ing everyone except your mother, and he gets half of Marvel's line handed to him with a big pay check attached; but somehow I'm doing something wrong.

Me, I may spend the rest of my life being a "wanna-be." But I'm having a lot of fun just trying to break in. The attempt itself is worth it.

Or to put it another way, the journey's more important than the destination.

And you will indeed spend the rest of your life a wannabe. Why? You have no fire; you have no real drive. You submit and say "Oh well". Maybe it'll work for you as one of the 20 people out of 8 billion; certainly the odds are there as proven by the man in 1964 who did indeed have monkeys inexplicably fly out of his butt one day.

Me? It cuts both ways. I don't care about the money; and it's been made clear I won't get the work no matter what I do. So why not give these people something to think about? Why not let them know that not everyone thinks they are a saint? You say they are not capable of considering the scenario because I said it in a "foul" way? I agree; they don't want to think about it because they're too busy cashing their checks.

Jason A. Quest

03-07-2006, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Marvologist
"But someone who really wants to write comics really oughta have more ideas in their head than just what to do with those characters"

According to you and hgpc. I understand what you're saying, but I don't see why that has to necessarily be the case. Why should that rule be set for everyone? This is just your opinion that is also shared by others. But is this unquestionably true in principle? Why does there have to be a rule like this? I'll be blunt here: Because an imagination that hasn't come up with anything but adventures for Spidey and Wolvie is a mighty shallow well to draw from. You'd be a one-trick pony, which gets tiresome to the audience pretty quickly.

Look, if someone a limited set of story ideas, there's no "rule" that says they shouldn't try to tell them. I have more respect for "one hit wonders" than for the folks who never put anything out. But I'm not going to go see a whole concert or buy a boxed set of CDs by the guys who recorded "The Safety Dance", you know?

mpg

03-07-2006, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Jason A. Quest
I'll be blunt here: Because an imagination that hasn't come up with anything but adventures for Spidey and Wolvie is a mighty shallow well to draw from. You'd be a one-trick pony, which gets tiresome to the audience pretty quickly.

Look, if someone a limited set of story ideas, there's no "rule" that says they shouldn't try to tell them. I have more respect for "one hit wonders" than for the folks who never put anything out. But I'm not going to go see a whole concert or buy a boxed set of CDs by the guys who recorded "The Safety Dance", you know?

but that was a really good song

and the video had a midget!

Jason A. Quest

03-07-2006, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
[lots of stuff deleted]When I said "writers write", I meant stories. Good luck with that.

DBHughes

03-07-2006, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Jason A. Quest
When I said "writers write", I meant stories. Good luck with that.

Right back at ya, luv.

Not From Around

03-07-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Spaz_Monkey
For everyone who wants to write, may I suggest National Novel Writing Month (http://www.nanowrimo.org). 30 Days, the month of November, to write 50,000 words. Even if you don't complete the book, you'll know if writing is in your future, or if plumbing is the way to go.

And no, it doesn't need to be a novel. Write that comic, TV Show or movie script you've got in your head. Go for it! Don't let the man hold you down. If you careate something you're proud of, and other people (not just mom) think it's a good story, pitch it to Image. If anyone would be willing to take a chance on an unknown creator, it would be them.

Now there's an idea! It will give you practice, and you can have fun doing it. I've written several novel-length stories over the years, and greatly enjoyed doing so (and entertained a few people along the way). I've also made little books out of stories I've written for my neices for Christmas. Stories make nice, unique, personalized gifts (for people who like to read, anyway).

jamdav86

03-07-2006, 04:55 PM

I read your story, completely, and, not being harsh, I totally agree with Marvel here.

What you've created as your 'reflective' character is actually a brand new superhero. She is so utterly powerful that noone but Professor X can go near her. If Marvel accepted this story and introduced this character into the MU, then the ripple effect would be enormous.

Marvel would be obliged to introduce this character in a big way. She comes into conflict with everyone she meets, and it needs to be reflected line-wide and in the main team books for the full effect, which Marvel rightly can't be bothered to do for one unknown.

My advice is to concentrate on stories that don't have such a ripple effect.

DBHughes

03-07-2006, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by jamdav86
I read your story, completely, and, not being harsh, I totally agree with Marvel here.

What you've created as your 'reflective' character is actually a brand new superhero. She is so utterly powerful that noone but Professor X can go near her. If Marvel accepted this story and introduced this character into the MU, then the ripple effect would be enormous.

Marvel would be obliged to introduce this character in a big way. She comes into conflict with everyone she meets, and it needs to be reflected line-wide and in the main team books for the full effect, which Marvel rightly can't be bothered to do for one unknown.

My advice is to concentrate on stories that don't have such a ripple effect.

I have no way to know what the editors' plans are (especially when they can't communicate beyond 'We can't accept new characters'). As it is, this script was submitted years before House of M occurred; so there is the built in resolution to this story "too big to tell". It's also just as easy to say dampners were applied to the girl at her request because she did not want to have powers; she was locked up against her will and sedated; etc. etc. etc. That's for "names" to decide if they want to play with it; and it could just as easily then be the "epic" apparently wanted in lieu of just a story.

Editors are in control of the books, but editors seem to be the only people not required to think. Editors will not even ask questions in my experience. The big example is this response. If the editor had said what you just did, then I could have responded with ways around it. Maybe they would not have liked the suggestions, but at least they would have sought real ideas on a script they claimed to love. I wasn't given that chance; I wasn't given any chance. I was patted on the head and sent on my way most likely because the editor didn't know how to reject this one; but the editor knew that all unpublished talent had to be rejected.

And for those who could claim it was my "attitude" that got me rejected then; clear out your tunnel vision. As I stated earlier, I was the nicest person one could be back then. Even now, I love trying to solve problems and re-work stories; but I, nor anyone else, can just shoot blind in the dark. I once had a script before the CEO of an independent entertainment company. He asked in a whiny tone, "Does it have to be a script? Why can't it be a book?" So I turned it into a preview of a book. The next response I get "Does it have to be a book? Why can't it be a script?" Despite continuing to be nice in follow ups, the guy finally just stopped talking about it. You can never hit the target they want if they refuse to show you the target; and that is always what happens in my experience.

With Marvel - "No new characters" What the hell did that mean in the context of that story? We can guess all we want, but we'll never know what it really meant; the editor didn't want anyone to know what it meant.

It all goes back to the truth I mentioned - why tease? I don't care if scripts are rejected; I didn't say word as I went through that period. But why the hell would they tease and then respond no further? Why would anyone claim that your fault was "doing too much work"?

If JMS wants to be guff about these issues, then that's where he needs to start talking. Get other Marvel editors in on it and let them explain themselves. No ________; no wishy-washy Clinton speak; let's put it on the table and once and for all answer this question of why they tease and insult unestablished talent instead of just closing open submissions? I feel certain JMS won't do that; the professionals have too much fun and ego-boosting at our expense.

Just like a slot machine, writing professionally is all luck. You make the decision of how many quarters you put in the slot to pull the lever; you make the decision on how soon (if ever) the machine will pay off; but it is all luck with no guarantees from strategy, talent, skill, thought, etc.

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
And you will indeed spend the rest of your life a wannabe. Why? You have no fire; you have no real drive. You submit and say "Oh well".

This probably isn't worth responding to, because you're obviously lashing out blindly in a rage. But you haven't read what I've written if you think I submit and say, "Oh well." Quite the opposite.

I've been rejected. My rejection story was actually worse than yours because, for weeks, the agent I referred to in my last post led me to believe I had found my big break. Then she switched to novels and couldn't care less about any other scripts I had written. That was devastating.

Yet here I am getting back on the horse, taking risks. Working my fingers to the bone in order to achieve the one dream that has consumed me since I was old enough to conceive of it: to be a professional comics creator.

That's drive. That's dedication.

Telling someone you don't know that they don't have drive may make you feel better in the short term, but in the long run will do nothing to improve your situation.

The reality is I have an infinitely better chance of making it than you do if we both continue on the courses we're on currently. Because I'm not wasting time lashing out at everyone else because I can't handle the hurt of rejection. I am directing all of my energies to continually trying and striving and getting better and trying and striving even more and I won't stop until I get what I want.

You're just lashing out in a blind, unthinking rage. Hoping that if you puff out your chest and make unfounded judgments about people whom you are in no position to judge, you'll feel better. Hoping that if you spew bile all over everyone in some way you'll make them pay for hurting you, and make yourself feel better for having your work rejected.

That's the difference between you and I right now. You get rejected and it hurts so bad that you have to spew venom all over the place. I get rejected and it fires me up to try again, because by God I know I have it in me to succeed. If one try wasn't good enough, I'll get better and try again.

The thing is, you don't have to continue like this. I know you don't want to admit it, but your insults towards me are obviously an attempt (a poor attempt, mind you) to cope with the hurt you're feeling.

Re-direct that energy towards your work and you've got a shot. Stay outrageously angry and bitter, and you've got next to none.

The choice is yours.

BlakSun

03-07-2006, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
I'm mad because Marvel didn't like my story and has no obligation to help me or tell me why.

sad.

ignore.

JCallan

03-07-2006, 06:47 PM

Thanks Joe.

Avid fan. Love the new column. Reminds me of your old Psycomic days.

I’ve been hoping for another column out of you for a while now, actually. Your essays are easily your most overlooked accomplishment. You clearly take so many cues from Harlan’s “Edge in my Voice,” series, there’s such strong voice in both your works. I always wished personal essay classes taught Harlan instead of E.B. White or Joan Didion. I think he’s probably the most interesting living essayist.

Your points on writing are well taken, and as those writers who’ve followed your career are well aware, you’ve said as much in many other places. I always took your comments about writing not being an ivory tower job as personal inspiration. And I thank you for that tremendously. (It was actually you that, at the age of 14, inspired me to be a writer from comments just like this on B5 boards – but that’s a very long story and I won’t get into it here.)

Oh, and Matt B. can thank you for finally getting me to sign up for a Newsarama account. I’d lurked on the boards for months, but when I heard you were going to be contributing, I knew I had to throw my hat in the ring!

Ps. Can everybody back the Hell off about the Gwen Stacey thing? It’s not like there wasn’t a story reason for doing it. I’m beginning to think Bendis orchestrated the whole thing in the hopes fans would stop emailing him about Hawkeye.

mpg

03-07-2006, 06:56 PM

Marvel didn't like my script

Waaaah!

chant

03-07-2006, 07:45 PM

Thanks to JMS' column, here's been a lot of discussion on this sensitive subject matter. A lot of people lurking out there in the shadows want to become professional comic book writers, and they have the battle scars of rejection to prove it.

I've got more than my share of them. I've been banging my head against the door for over a decade, on and off. For something that should be a little more easier than, say, writing a movie script and getting it produced or performing open heart surgery, becoming a professional published comic book writer doesn't seem to be that easy.

Wannabe writers have it rough. We can't show editors our portfolio and have them make a judgement about the level of our work in under a minute. On top of that we have the competition from established comic writers trying to land a job from a marketplace that had been shrinking for 10 years, and now we have the added competition of having established screenwriters, playwrights and prose authors landing writing jobs from the finite pool of books published every month. It's enough to make the struggling writer want to quit in frustration and walk away from it all.

I'm not here to bitch about that, nor would I advocate to *ANYONE* to give up their dreams. Crack open "Prayers to Broken Stones" by Dan Simmons and read Harlan Ellison's intro for inspiration; Ellison was instructing a writing course and came smack up against an older man who had written full novels that had never been published and who seemed to have not too much talent. After hearing Ellison's critique, the man said that it wouldn't affect him from writing more novels. THAT'S the kind of skin every writer needs to develop while at the same time being able to grow and expand your skill as a writer.

Now, that said, what I do find fault in today's comic book corporate culture is the need for some editors to lie. In everything that I have been taught to do as an aspiring writer the absolute bottom line is to give respect to the person whose time you're taking, asking to read your work or share 5 minutes of their time. I've gone to San Diego and done the walk, trying to steal 5 minutes of time from an editor to ask for advice, to cultivate a contact, and maybe one day they would ask me to submit my material for review.

I've gotten used to disappointment, of getting the standard rejection letters or even not hearing back from an editor. I'll spend thousands of dollars self-publishing my work, thousands more to fly to San Diego and then spend an hour or two standing in a line in the hope of showing it to an editor -- no problem, I know what my chances are. What I can't stomach is when an editor treats you with unprofessionalism, like you're a toad not worthy of a reply because you want to be a pro.

I once had an editor from DC ask for a proposal, give me his business card and tell me that he would get back to me. "If you don't hear from me, call me, leave messages, even fax me. Call me 10 times if you have to." He insisted this, not me.

After trying to reach him for several months, I never heard back from him.

The next year at San Diego I walked up to this gentlemen, who was answering questions at the DC booth specifically about submitting proposals. I lined up and I got the chance to ask him about the submission policy, and then asked him what I should do if I'm requested to submit. He started giving me the answer I got a year ago, and when he had finished I reminded him of what happened a year ago at this very same spot. After a moment of not knowing what to say he apologized and admitted that he didn't have enough time to look at the material that he had requested.

On a separate incident in 2000, I saw another DC editor receive a proposal from a writer. After the writer had left, the editor took five steps and dropped the writer's proposal in a trash can -- this right on the floor of the convention center. "Let's get out of here before that happens again," the editor said to his two pals. The worst of it was that I knew the writer, and I had to tell him what I saw. The guy walked over to the trash can and pulled his proposal right out from the can.

Not to knock on DC's parade, but I've had a similar experience happen to me with a well-known writer at Marvel. I'm taking the high road here and not mentioning names.

That said, there are decent people working in this biz who won't rip out your heart and stamp on it. People like Diana Shultz who, in the middle of the comic book recession, encouraged me to keep at it, that my stuff was good and that you have to believe that your break will come one day. For all the grief that Joe Quesada gets on here, I saw him stand in the middle of a hallway in San Diego two years ago and answer EVERY SINGLE QUESTION from an aspiring writer or artist. There had to be over 30 of us there, and I was one of them. He treated every single one of us with respect, didn't ________ what our chances were and when he looked at stuff, gave us encouragement. It might be a million to one shot getting a break at Marvel, but when the wannabes already have to deal with rejection and financial hardship to try and make their dreams happen, those 60 seconds we get with a pro that won't lie to us give us strength for the rest of the year.

My lucky break came not though comics, but through writing for the web. I was the first guy to start a movie news/gossip website, and from that it directly lead into me writing for Wizard (Doug Goldstein, you da man for giving me my break!) I'm able now to pay my bills, provide for my family and write because of a combination of luck, getting recognized and hard work. I've self-published my own work and I was also asked by an artist to write an indie comic book series, but even so I find it still incredibly, incredibly hard to "break" into mainstream comics. After 10 years of trying, and even being a so-called "successful" writer, I still haven't realized my dream of being a professional comic book writer. I don't want to do it just for cash; I want to write these books because I love doing it.

I know this is getting long but I just wanted to share my experiences because, as I point out, it's a lot more complicated trying to be a pro comic writer. There's just three more things I want to throw out there and I'm done.

First, if you want to write comics and you're finding it incredibly difficult to scale the mountain, don't be afraid to cry about it. The best advice I ever received was from a professional makeup artist, and during the early stages of his career he used to find it impossible to get a job at what he loved to do. DON'T PUT YOUR LIFE ON HOLD WAITING FOR YOUR BREAK. Go out with your friends, get married, have kids, go to a movie when you get a bad break, ENJOY LIFE. Pursue other financial successes related to writing...did you know that Neil Gaiman wrote one of those unauthorized bio books of Duran Duran in the 80s, you know, the ones that you seen teenage girls stuffing into their backpack? It made him some money, it may have even made a connection to him meeting with Karen Berger when she scouted for new talent in England. Your dream can happen at any time, not necessarily now or tomorrow, and it may not happen with Marvel or DC. It may happen as the result of you opening a door that you least expected.

Second, if you're that good, go scout out the indie publishers and develop your own comic book characters or ideas. At the very least, you will gain more contacts and more knowledge about comic publishing from behind the desk of the person you're trying to catch the attention of. At the very most, your comic becomes an indie sensation, you make millions of dollars from it and it frees you for life. Look at the creators of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, one of whom is married to a former Penthouse Pet for pete's sake! Don't seem them wanting to write Spidey, do you?

Third and final, a suggestion to Marvel and DC: why not consider doing a comic like Marvel Team-Up and give talented but unknown comic book writers and artists a break? Hand pick an editor that can work with people who are working at the professional level but who need a break. Have them pitch cool, out of the box ideas that would be idea for stand-alone stories, like the final day in the life of the planet that Galactus consumed before the Surfer found Earth, or a day in the life of Alfred (I'll bet that he's not just dressing Master Bruce's bruises and serving tea all day long.) This is precisely how a guy like Neil Gaiman broke into the biz -- he took 2 characters nobody cared about (Black Orchid and the concept of DC's Sandman) and look at what happened there. Gaiman thought outside of the box, and the result was worldwide recognition for DC...not to mention all the money that's still rolling in for Sandman TPBs. There's TONS of cool ideas that aren't being explored in the monthly superhero books because the writers of those books are already "in the forest", so to speak, and thus have a different perspective and outlook that the outsiders might have. I understand that it takes a financial risk to greenlight such a book, and the payoffs might not seem as rewarding on first glance, but I believe with the right marketing and approach it could work. Look at how much support you would get from the online comics medium, from sites like Newsarama, CBR, Pulse, Fanboy Radio, Fourth Rail, Scryptic and so on. I think it deserves a try.

Best of luck to all of those out there in the trenches. I'm there with you guys!

straczynski

03-07-2006, 07:58 PM

Before launching into what follows, let me make one thing clear. You have done very little here except to insult, deride, patronize, and offend me, the editorial staff at Marvel, the publishers of Marvel and most other comics companies, and most of the folk who chose to disagree with you. Then you turn around and ask for everyone ELSE to explain him- or herself to you, as though you are owed something by someone, that somehow by being as offensive and insulting as you are, you are somehow serving the cause of light.

You are serving no interest save your own personal pique. You have had some bad experiences, you have not had the reception you think you deserve, and so everybody else is just a whore or a liar or naive. No other purpose is served.

I'm not here to blow smoke up anybody's ass. I don't have the time, the patience, the inclination, and nothing is served by my doing so. I'm not being paid for this column, and the time spent writing both the column and this response is time taken away from pending deadlines. In short...I have far better things to do with my time. I'm here for one purpose and one purpose only: to try and give folks the information they need to move ahead as writers.

Because while there is always a measure of luck in these things, it is also true that, as the saying goes, "Chance favors the prepared mind." People need the information so that if and when that chance does come along, they can make the most of it.

Your experience and your oft-repeated position, notwithstanding, the simple and unchallenged truth is that new writers break into comics all the time. If they didn't, the field would have turned to dust years ago.

But there is a process to these things, and you can either bemoan the process and say it's unfair and hold your breath until you turn blue...or you can learn what that process is, and use it to your benefit and strength. You have to know and respect that process, and its underlying rules.

And rule number one is...it doesn't matter how deserving you may think you are, you don't get to cut to the head of the line.

To explain by way of proxy: every year, I get about a dozen emails from folks who say they've come up with a great idea for a new series, and how can they go about selling it?

To which I tell you...you can't. Again, ideas are a dime a dozen. The networks buy shows from people they know they can rely on. Meaning people who have paid their dues. You start as a freelance writer, work your way up to story editor, put in more time learning the process, become a producer, and then you're in a position where the networks will listen to you. You've earned a seat at the table.

Ditto in journalism. You start out writing brief articles for small papers or magazines, build up your portfolio, and gradually move on to bigger articles for larger papers and magazines.

You have to prove, over time, that you can Do It, consistently and reliably, in order to create a comfort factor in the people to whom you wish to sell, so that they begin to trust you with bigger and more substantial work.

In television and comics in particular, you have to demonstrate that you are able to work with the creations of other writers as kind of training wheels before they'll trust you to create your own characters.

So here you are. You created a super-hero. To which I say...as harsh as this may sound...but far, far less harsh than what you directed toward me...so what?

Anybody reading this who hasn't got an idea for a really cool super hero, raise your hands. No? Nobody?

You had an idea for a character. Good, bad or indifferent, point is you haven't shown you can deliver consistently, over time; haven't shown that you can work with the creations of other writers, in a universe made by diverse hands. You haven't proven anything...other than that you had an idea, and you feel entitled to a crack at the big leagues.

But you're not. Again, you don't get to cut to the head of the line just 'cause you think you deserve it. How do you get it the door at Marvel or DC? You do so by writing for some of the smaller companies, just as you do as a journalist or a TV writer or most other iterations of the writing profession. An issue here and there, a miniseries down the road, gathering trust and credentials the way that a sweater accumulates lint. Then you have enough to start doing the same for a major company, writing a fill-in here, a miniseries there, maybe you get on a regular monthly title...and then, only THEN are you in a position to say to your editor or publisher, "Listen, I had this idea for a really cool character we could fold into the Marvel universe. Let me send you something I've written to get the ball rolling."

That is how the process works. You can carry on cranky all you want, can bemoan the unfairness of a system that requries you to prove yourself before someone invests hundreds of thousands of dollars in creating, advertising and promoting a new comic...but that is the reality of it.

It's no different for any of us in the field. Alan Moore started out writing little bits for 2000AD and other, hand-made strips he put together. Neil did fill-ins here and there, and slowly built up a rep that let the forces at DC hand him an established character (which he then changed mightily) with Sandman. DC gave Alan Moore Swamp Thing, he didn't come in with his own new characters.

I started out in comics writing a couple of stand-alones for DC. Then a miniseries for Top Cow, a smaller company, which got me noticed over at Marvel. (The B5 stuff also didn't hurt, but I don't know if they would have thought of me for comics had I not already been doing the short stuff for other publishers...but even there, it's a matter of having proven myself in other areas first.)

Had I gone out there right from the git-go with new characters and tried to sell them before proving myself elsewhere, I'd STILL be out there trying to do it.

You wish to be an exception to that rule. I wish to be able to fly around the room on my own power. Neither of us is going to see those wishes granted.

So what're you gonna do? Sit there and sulk and keep insulting people because you don't want to deal with the reality you keep telling other people they should face? Or learn to work within the system that EXISTS while we await the revolution that will provide us with a new system (which will invariably be corrupted with time)?

Because right now, you seem to feel that you are not only above the process, but above the need to adhere to form, that somehow this should not be as important as what's in the script...but how can one tell what's in the script unless it's in a form that's recognizable and readable? Moreover, a comic script is written in a particular way not out of whim, but because it then has to go to artists and editors, who need to be able to address the creative issues panel-by-panel, caption-by-caption. The form exists because that's the template needed to shove the material into the machine.

When I first went to write animation, I searched high and low for a sample script, finally finding one over at Script City in Burbank, which became my template. I knew that it had to look correct, and be correct for use by the animators. It's not just a matter of wearing nice clothes to a job interview, but there's an element of that as well. You want to put your best foot forward, and show that you did your homework.

There is no higher compliment than that someone pays you money for what you have written. It is a reward that says "you did this right, you told a good story, that I feel I can take and use." Learning the language of the buyer -- animation script format, comics script format -- is part and parcel of that process.

Like it or not, unfair or not, it is immutable. Get over it, or walk away and stop standing in the doorway.

And while you're at it, get over the idea that the world is picking on you because they like it.

You say: They won't attempt to fix the system; they won't attempt to make it more plausible for people who can write; they like to watch people fall down.

Nonsense. They don't know who you are, and frankly, don't care. To suggest that editors are rejecting YOU because they ENJOY doing so is simply ridiculous.

You say: No one like you wants to try change the system

System ain't gonna change, sunshine. And to change something as massive as The System is a lot harder than learning what the system is, and working within it. You can say, "Well, until the system changes, it's unfair and I'm just gonna sit here and sulk," but let's be clear that that's your choice. That's you doing it to you, nobody else.

You yell at people here for pointing out that your messages are angry and insulting and offensive -- which, incidentally, they are and have been consistently -- and say that it shouldn't make a difference. Well, pal, it does. We are all responsible for our own behaviors, and the consequences of those behaviors.

You cite other writers whose behavior you think may be at odds with polite society -- characterizations which are biased and inaccurate and self-serving in my view, but leave that for another time -- and say in essence, well if THEY can behave that way, why can't I?

How about because they've proven that in addition to whatever volume they may bring to a discussion...they also bring talent, and much is tolerated if you can do that. As Woody Allen said of his character's brother who thought he was a chicken, they tolerated his behavior "because frankly, we need the eggs."

You've clucked and cawed, but thus far...no eggs. So the table is skewed. Deal with it.

You say: Then you have JMS popping on to build up more hopes with fluffy ________ that isn't based in one shred of reality or rational thought.

My comments here are based on 30 years of working in print, television, comics and fiction. You generalize from your particular point of referencd to suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a liar or irrational. My way has worked not just for me, but for the whole bunch of other writers who have been able to take what I've written about in my writing books and columns and actually break into one or another writing industry.

You say: If JMS and the like don't want to actually help, then shut the hell up.

So if my opinion of what "helping" consitutes does not match your own, I should simply shut up?

I *am* here to help. What are *you* here for? You seem to feel you're taking the high road in tilting at the System...but who are you serving? Who are you helping? Nobody. You're venting, which I suppose has its merits, but helping? No.

You say: When people like JMS "make it", they become in-human in my opinion. They live in a dream world with no restrictions on themselves; the restriction is on everyone else.

So I'm "inhuman." Nice. And please direct me to this strange world where I have no restrictions, because I have no idea where to locate it on a star-map. The only dream world I've seen belongs to somebody who seems to think that saying something makes it so....

You say, in response to another poster who says that the journey is more important than the destination: And you will indeed spend the rest of your life a wannabe. Why? You have no fire; you have no real drive.

You maintain that it's wrong for publishers to decide someone's career based on something that arrives in the mail...but here you have done just that, on a very personal and insulting fashion, to someone else. You've decided that this person is going nowhere based on...what? The fact that he disagrees with you?

Here's a flash for you: the person who's in it for the journey is a lot closer to arriving at the destination than somebody who's just in it for the end-result.

You say: So why not give these people something to think about? Why not let them know that not everyone thinks they are a saint?

Or, translated: my career isn't going where I want it to go, so I'm going to insult them and make it sound like I'm doing it on behalf of the Commonweal rather than out of my own anger and bile.

You say: You say they are not capable of considering the scenario because I said it in a "foul" way? I agree; they don't want to think about it because they're too busy cashing their checks.

My checks clearing the bank have nothing to do with you acting like a jerk. You seem to think that your proclamations somehow will have writers and editors cowering in terror. Sorry. We don't even know who you are. And with comments from you such as --

Editors are in control of the books, but editors seem to be the only people not required to think.

-- nobody has any real reason to care.

You say: Get other Marvel editors in on it and let them explain themselves.

But you don't acknowledge or accept the facts when you are presented with them. You don't want to hear the facts because they are inconvenient, because they don't line up with what you've convinced yourself hast to be the case. You want them to explain, ultimately, why they didn't recognize your genius.

Nobody owes you anything. The only thing that is given, freely, is information. Which one can use or ignore at their own peril. You have chosen to ignore it. Your choice, nobody else's, and nobody else needs to be dragged out to explain themselves to you.

It's you who has to prove you have merit. That's how the system works.

You say: let's put it on the table and once and for all answer this question of why they tease and insult unestablished talent instead of just closing open submissions? I feel certain JMS won't do that; the professionals have too much fun and ego-boosting at our expense.

Let's speak frankly here, shall we? Since you joined this discussion, you have insulted me, Marvel's editors and publishers, other posters who don't agree with you...you are projecting your own behavior onto others. It's your ego you are trying to boost, you who are plainly getting off on insulting other people.

I have taken the pains to respond at length to these points out of a sense of fairness. If you wish to continue to post in an adult fashion, to try and understand the system and the process and in so doing not only give yourself the tools you need, but also give them to others looking in on this discussion, then I'm happy to continue the dialogue.

But if you choose to continue behaving as you do...then I have better things to do and more receptive people with whom to do them.

The choice, as ever, is yours.

jms

MattBrady

03-07-2006, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Why not let them know that not everyone thinks they are a saint? You say they are not capable of considering the scenario because I said it in a "foul" way? This is the only warning you'll get: I understand that you are angry. However, calling others on this thread as well as JMS names will do aboslutely nothing for you, nor will trying to make some name for yourself by your bad behavior.

Stay and be civil, or leave.

MattB

Bill Myers

03-07-2006, 08:58 PM

What can I say? I'm tired and cranky and had a rough day at work. Nevertheless I should've known better than to mix it up with DBHughes.

Because there was no need to take the bait and defend my drive and dedication. I was right the first time: the journey is more important than the destination.

JMS, you've done more than provide information in this column. You've given my spirits a lift and reminded me that there's no reason to give up. Because everyone who's anyone in the business of writing started out as a "no one."

And yeah, you didn't have to write this column. But you did. Thanks and I look forward to future installments.

Wormwood

03-07-2006, 10:27 PM

Wow. And I was just going to say that story seemed like an uninspired entry of the basic "young mutant gains powers and Professor X shows up and tells them they're special" template. Of which, there have been dozens. Nothing particularly unique or interesting or worthy of skipping to the head of the line.

The Shadow

03-07-2006, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Daniel Way can talk about ____ing everyone except your mother, and he gets half of Marvel's line handed to him with a big pay check attached; but somehow I'm doing something wrong. Dude... you're starting to sound bitter.

As the saying goes.... "If you can't take the heat..."

chant

03-07-2006, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by The Shadow
Dude... you're starting to sound bitter.

As the saying goes.... "If you can't take the heat..."

I don't want to throw more gas on the already expanding fire, but speaking as a wannabe writer that has come up against unprofessionalism in the comic industry, it can be pretty hard to not want to throw massive boulders through windows.

I can't speak for DB Hughes personal experience, but no one, be they a professional or an aspiring writer, should be lied to or humiliated when they submit their work to a company. As I mentioned earlier, I have had three personal experiences where I received unbecoming treatment from so-called professional editors working for Marvel and DC. In every situation that came up, I gave these people nothing but professional courtesy and I expected it in return. Sometimes it was very hard for me to turn the other cheek and walk away from it. I can see how just one of these encounters can send away the next Jeph Loeb, Neil Gaiman or Brian Michael Bendis because some bozo just squashed the dreams of these guys/girls. You spend all that time cultivating your craft, maybe spending thousands of dollars going to cons and publishing your books, and the reception you get exceeds the horror of the standard rejection letter. Yeah, I can definitely see why some of these potential great writers give it up and go elsewhere, if not settle for a 9 to 5 job.

I've also spoken to editors and publishers and asked them, frankly, if it's worth the bother to try and break in when you're an unknown. More than a few of them commented that it's a difficult time to try and break in if you're a new writer, and it's been that way for more than a decade. At the end of the day it's Marvel and DC's dollars that they gamble on launching a new book, and on taking a chance on a new writer, so they should write the rules. However, if they don't want the masses coming to them and submitting proposals that don't stand a hope in hell, then shut the doors on the submission policy for once and all. These comic companies say that they strive for new creative voices. Yes, I know it's a risk to spend thousands of dollars on an unknown writer; I've done it for myself AND I've published stories from unknown writers before in an anthology book I co-edited. But if it's that freaking hard to break in -- and some of your staff seem to despise and look down on the pleebs throwing themselves at the submission doors of these companies -- then these companies shouldn't be asking for the next wunderstar writer.

I've talked with a lot of wannabe writers and artists, some of which have broken through, and they ALL have these horror stories to share. Some of them have worse stories to share including specific issues of racism and sexism that have been mentioned as to why they didn't get an assignment. I've also heard it speculated before that since the industry is so small, and everyone knows everyone else, no wannabe wants to rock the boat too much and make waves because they may get blacklisted from ever working in the industry.

At the end of the day the work should be judged on its merits alone, period, and if it's been asked by an editor, then there should be a chance that it will see the light of day for readers because it may just be the next "Swamp Thing", "Ultimates", "Planetary" or "Ghost World". Unfortunately, real life doesn't work that way -- and that's a hard, cold and stinky fact of life that shouldn't be, but there it is.

I like to think that at the end of the day, maybe by opening it up for discussion, some of this can be changed.

The Shadow

03-07-2006, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by straczynski
I searched high and low for a sample script, finally finding one over at Script City in Burbank, which became my template. Any chance at you posting a sample script here aspiring writers can use as a template??? :)

Kevin Street

03-07-2006, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
My apologies - last time I looked at Dark Horse's site (several months back) they *were* accepting unsolicited submissions. And I probably should have made it plainer that the other three you mention want an artist attached (I did say that Platinum haven't published yet).
I was talking specifically about alternatives to self-publishing, and obviously if one is going to self-publish a comic (or do a webcomic as I also suggested) then one needs art as well as words. But I agree my wording can be misinterpreted.

No problem. I apologize too, because you're certainly right that those places are alternatives to self publishing.

You're probably taking the hardest path of all by publishing your own book, and that deserves respect. I wish you the best of luck with your endeavors.

Originally posted by Not From Around
It WOULD be the decent thing to do. But given how many self-publishers and small-pressers there are out there, the Big Two may be pretty confident of continuing to have a talent pool to draw upon with no undue talent-nurturing effort on their part. They probably see themselves as being at the top of a Darwinian chain, with the fittest surviving the small press struggle to arrive at the ultimate development--good Batman and X-Men writers. That may be hubris on their part, but dominating your field for many years will do that to you.

Actually the Big Two's Big Question is not how will they find talent so much as what will they do with it. For the most part the answer is to keep the talent going back to the superhero properties wells that they drilled many years ago. If and when those wells finally go dry and Marvel and DC wear out their welcome and collapse, that will be the main reason why. It will not be a failure to find talent, but a failure to make the best possible use of it.

You make some very good points there.

Originally posted by Nat Gertler
However, relevant to those wanting to write: they have indeed paid writers, and I've yet to hear from anyone who has done work for them who has not gotten the agreed payment.

--Nat (writer, The Proxy (http://platinumstudios.com/titles/proxy.php), Platinum Studios)

Very good news! In that case, I retract my earlier remark and I look forward to reading your graphic novel, Nat. New comics and new markets are always welcome. :)

Nat Gertler

03-08-2006, 03:08 AM

JMS:

Good response, but I don't think you need to worry about this guy. It doesn't seem likely that he'll listen, so the real concern is that others will listen to him.

And when the topic is "how one succeeds in comics", I think the readers here will recognize who has actually walked that walk, and whose source of expertise is that he hasn't.

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by The Shadow
Any chance at you posting a sample script here aspiring writers can use as a template??? :)

I know this question was directed to JMS, but I wanted to let you know that the BBC offers templates for all kinds of manuscripts, free-of-charge. This includes screenplays, T.V. scripts, plays, novels and more. They're loaded with macros that can be run with special buttons that are built into the templates, so your formatting can be done automatically. You can find them here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/scriptsmart/downloads.shtml

They have U.S. versions of every template.

Microsoft also offers a screenplay template, but I believe the BBC templates to be far more full-featured and useful.

AndrewHickey

03-08-2006, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by Marvologist
Marvel and DC were able to look at submissions in the past. What's the big deal about that? They just don't choose to do it now. At least on an unsolicited basis. But if Marvel accepts a query letter from you for whatever reason, you can just put your script in the mail and that's it. It doesn't require anything dramatic.

That's their business. To be honest, I suspect it's because the fanbase (and therefore their expendable income) has dramatically shrunk over the last decade or so, while simultaneously the percentage of people reading comics who want that job has grown exponentially.

I would guess at least 90% of comics readers have at least the vague idea that it would be fun to write comics. And *everyone* thinks they can write. Only a small number of people in comparison want to be comic *artists*, because you actually have to have some demonstrable skill before you can delude yourself you're capable of that.

But your general idea is that pursuing any artistic endeavour is difficult, and that's fine. I know, there are obstacles. But I just don't think it has to be as problematic as it is where writing for comics is concerned. That's all I'm saying.

It's not difficult *at all* to write for comics. You could do that *NOW*. What is difficult is getting to write for two companies. Hardly the same thing.

With some of the things you've said, including the Paul McCartney thing, you seem to have gotten the impression that I should just get something special that no one else should, and that I should just be put at the top without doing anything to prove I deserve it. If you reread my first reply to you, you'll see that I said that I think ANYONE with the skill deserves the chance at getting a top spot, not just me. So don't skip over things I've said in order to give me your sarcastic nastiness.

Anyone with the skill DOES have the chance.
Put it this way - and using my Paul McCartney analogy again because despite what you say *it works* - Paul McCartney has done duets with several people. People like U2, Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Elvis Costello.
If he writes another song that he thinks should be a duet, do you think he will a) put out a general call to the entire world for demo tapes, listen to them all, and choose the singer; or b) choose some other very successful singer who he already admires, and ask them?
What you're doing is arguing that Paul McCartney should choose a), because there are many great singers who are only interested in singing on a Paul McCartney album, and don't want to go to all the trouble of having successful 30-year music careers to do so.
What Marvel and DC are saying is that they want *experienced* writers. Do you complain that other jobs want experience before you can get them? I know when I was looking into jobs the last time I was employed, I had some difficulty getting one. I wanted to be a computer programmer, but everywhere wanted either a degree in computer science or a couple of years' paid experience. I had neither.
At that point I could have said "the entire world is against me, and I'll never get anywhere, and I can never show my ability to anyone who matters". I didn't. I instead got a job at a very small company, paying below the market rate. This has given me enough experience that when I next look for a job, I will be able to get those jobs I was unable even to apply for at first.

The fact is, I'm not trying to be nasty to you. I'm trying to give you a wake-up call here. I'm trying to show you that you *do* have a chance to write those comics - exactly the same chance that anyone else with your abilities (or lack of them) has. But if you carry on taking the attitude you're taking now, you will *NEVER* do so.
You're after a job which *everyone* on these boards would like (even though I'm not a Marvel fan, if I was ever offered the writing gig on Spiderman or whatever, I'd jump at it). Marvel employ, let's say, 15 writers at any one time. Now assume that there are 3000 people who would like the job (actually, I'm betting it's ten or a hundred times that, but giving you the benefit of doubt).
That means you have, *at best* a 1 in 200 chance of doing that. Now you're saying that you think that one company, who have 200 applicants for every open slot, should treat every applicant equally *REGARDLESS OF EXPERIENCE OR QUALIFICATIONS*?
You can either complain that the world is unfair because you can't walk into your dream job, or you can get on with living in the real world and making it happen. With the attitude you're currently taking, you will NEVER write for Marvel, or for ANYONE. NEVER. And those of us who are trying to drill some sense into your head are not doing so to be nasty, but are trying to show you that making things deliberately difficult for yourself is a stupid thing to do.

AndrewHickey

03-08-2006, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Kevin Street
No problem. I apologize too, because you're certainly right that those places are alternatives to self publishing.

You're probably taking the hardest path of all by publishing your own book, and that deserves respect. I wish you the best of luck with your endeavors.

Absolutely no need to apologise. And thanks. The thing I'm doing probably won't be ready in full for a couple of years, because at the moment I'm working 12-hour days, and it can take me up to 70 hours to do a page (finding reference, scripting, drawing, lettering, resizing etc), and it's incredibly difficult, but it's fun, and that's what matters.

Jason A. Quest

03-08-2006, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Right back at ya, luv. You seem to have missed my point. You're going on and on and on here, wasting time with these bitch sessions that a real writer would find better things to spend it on. I haven't wasted a fraction of the time here that you have, because I've been busy working on a story.

Duca

03-08-2006, 10:42 AM

Guys--
I live in Italy, so the highest target an aspiring writer can aim at here are not the same that have been discussed here, but the example holds some significance.
Ten years ago I started self-publishing. Not on the rebound after rejection, but as my first chosen means of expression.
Five years ago Diseny noticed my writing. Three years ago I started writing regularly for them, and my portfolio of clients broadened. I moved to Milano, where 99,9% of the publishers are, and at the same time I stopped needing other odd jobs to sustain myself. Last year I started teaching script writing, which I see as a way of giving something back to the community, and especially to the next generation of writers, who I not for a second see as "the competition". It's been a steep uphill route, and it's still tough, but for a new set of reasons now that I have to juggle assignments. I am thankful for what I've had, and for what's going on. And especially because none of this was my "god's given right" to have. I must prove to myself everyday that I am the right person for every assignment I get.

Wouldn't want it any other way.
Does this make any sense?

michele.

DBHughes

03-08-2006, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by straczynski
I have taken the pains to respond at length to these points out of a sense of fairness. If you wish to continue to post in an adult fashion, to try and understand the system and the process and in so doing not only give yourself the tools you need, but also give them to others looking in on this discussion, then I'm happy to continue the dialogue.

But if you choose to continue behaving as you do...then I have better things to do and more receptive people with whom to do them.

The choice, as ever, is yours.

jms

Then we will take that approach and see what it yields. I do not ask any of the following questions to be rude; but they are not going to be easy questions. I cannot help that fact; the only alternative is to not ask the questions.

As you noted in your initial column, the 1980's Twilight Zone opened submissions and received approximately 3,000 submissions in kind. How was this open submission process advertised? Was a notice placed in locations where writers would look? Was it a note in small print in the closing credits of the broadcast episode? Was the "open submissions" policy just deciding to look at scripts which were coming in anyway?

The reason I ask such questions is really not even some challenge to potential use of skewed statistics (i.e. "you find what you look for"). I ask this question because I, at least, am having a hard time grasping this concept. In an age where the internet practically did not exist (the 1980's), 3,000 people were able to find the proper address to mail a submission; but in converse, apparently only 1 of these people was able to string a few sentences together into a coherent thought.

We hear this kind of example from every professional source; thousands of people have the intellect to get the script before the right person, but only 1 or 2 were able to convey a thought. Taking off your professional hat for a moment, how do you reconcile that paradox without insulting those who submitted? Again, I am not talking about a rejection; I am talking about use of these broad, sweeping examples to demonstrate "what's out there".

I would also ask this question. Do you believe that opening submissions creates no duty? We have seen in this thread repeatedly the belief that Marvel nor anyone else owes a response when they open submissions. Do you believe that is true?

From my own perspective, one of the oldest tenets of our society is that once you invite a stranger into your home or business, you have a duty to mitigate their harm during the course of the stranger accepting the offer. This has been codified in our common law; and even Marvel recognizes it with their open submissions. Marvel sends a form rejection letter. During Epic, it was even repeatedly mentioned by various Marvel editors that submitters were "owed" a response in a timely manner.

Form rejections are fine; they say in and of themselves that the story and/or script was not liked. I am not sure how anyone could misinterpret that. However, what about a personal e-mail that says the script was liked; and then any further polite communication is ignored? Personally, I liked the guy in this thread who stated that the story script I provided had been done a million times; that is something a person can work with and it took just as much time as saying "Great work!"

The point I have tried to make is that people create duties in every facet of life. I did not expect an e-mail (let alone e-mail response to several different submissions), but the editors took it on themselves to make that e-mail. However, I am apparently being told that after they took that step, they owed no duty to give even a one sentence statement of what a person could do to please them next time? At that point, they owed no duty to answer when it was politely asked what a person could do to please them next time?

How do you overcome the above scenario? How do you learn from it? I am not a perfect person; I have never claimed to be. I operate on examining what I did wrong and attempting to fix it to have a better chance next time. The truth is that all I have given is one example. In that one example, I set out to create no new character; I set out to tell a single story with a beginning, middle and end. I was then told I created a character and that was apparently the end of it; no chance to rectify it. So what? Well, that's actually the question. I do not see where the fabricated excuse was so fatal; I was not told any other path that would have more success. So, what?

I really do quite enjoy the challenge of making a story or script fit into whatever whim someone has. However, after a person has been told "Great work!" more than once, is the only advice you can give amount to "keep shooting in the dark"? How can anyone show they are a team player when the coach hides the rule book and won't tell you what he's looking for?

You also cited how one should not emulate the bad behaviour of other creators who have "made it"; but there must be something to it. Bendis calls the members of this board "_______s"; Daniel Way talks as already noted; Quesada accuses the competition of having an erectile disfunction while in the past giving like service to fans who do not agree with him. I have not researched yourself in great detail, but the little I know shows no lack of public restraint on your part against Warner executives, TNT executives, Star Trek producers, Sci-Fi Channel schedulers, etc. It really always seems to be someone else's fault that your project did not work out the way you wanted; should we ignore that? Is the truth that higher ups are above reproach? If so, why do you complain? I even seem to recall some mention that you only agreed to work at Marvel if no editor ever changed your words; if true, what faith is that showing?

Your initial column also mentioned courage. You may not have noticed this, but there is a large fear related to people such as yourself. "Careful what you say, you could be blacklisted for life!" Did you notice the response of Bill Myers after your response last night? To paraphrase, "I should've known better than say anything; my fault; love you, JMS." Mr. Myers did nothing wrong, but he still felt like he had to raise himself up in your eyes after you chimed in again. Why? Fear.

Knowing this fear is there, do you believe any kind of relationship or genuine conversation can be had with people who so openly fear you? Why does the area of professional writing equate respect with fear? Why is a written commodity judged first on whether or not the applicant showed enough fear? In the professional's quest to show how rare it is they were able to get work, they create this image that only perfect people can make it. I would state this even without knowing you or having read your work, but you are not perfect. No one is perfect.

Can you explain how so few make it through if the standard is not artificial perfection? No blanket statements or generalizations; explain what makes you so special as a writer that got you into the door. Proper form, structure and dialogue are picked up in any core college English class; it is not as rare as you would have us believe. If it was not completely "slot machine" luck, then what made you stand out as the 1 person worthy that year? Surely you can tell us.

Lastly, the above segues into many other shennanagins I have been told by professionals and "arm-chair professionals" alike. Should I be paying off the mail boy to slip the work to someone in an elevator? Should I be planning to move to Central Park while I stalk professionals in New York until they respond to a question? Should I be sending the work via singing telegram? None of these were my ideas; but I have been told that they occasionally work. This is where I find your initial column disingenuous; hard work and preparation are not in any way the key in reality. Those skills only keep you in the door *after* you get into the door; we don't need to know that. We need to know how to get into the door.

All of the above may be subjects for future columns and too lengthy for a response here; but I think I speak for most in saying that we are not looking for your opinion of us. We already know the low opinion every professional has of our skills sight unseen; we have heard it ad nauseum. I, at least, would be more interested in an examination of professionals who are already there. In many opinions, most professionals do not remember where they came from, they just adopt the same lines they were given when they were trying to get in. No thought is applied to make it better; nothing is done to give it more sense; we only hear that "It is as it was." Well, even writers once did not have unions; why don't we retroactively ignore that and every other change The System has had in church, state, human rights, technology, etc. One person standing up can initiate change; you should know that from Babylon 5 if nothing else.

Topics:

Why do open submission processes seem designed to fail? Why does no one attempt to correct that public perception in an effort of improved public relations? In the alternative, why are the open submissions not shut down if they can not be manned properly?

Why do professionals behave badly only to rail against anyone who gives as good as they get? Why do professionals not recognize people more often watch what you do instead of what you say?

Why do professionals cultivate a climate of fear?

What does it really take to get into the door when all you hear is "Great work!"? Keep in mind those who are not filthy rich and do not even have the financial capability to chase conventions.

Do with it what you will; I will interrupt the congregation no further.

DBHughes

03-08-2006, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Jason A. Quest
You seem to have missed my point. You're going on and on and on here, wasting time with these bitch sessions that a real writer would find better things to spend it on. I haven't wasted a fraction of the time here that you have, because I've been busy working on a story.

So you can only do one thing at a time and take no breaks? I type 130 words a minute and have the ability to speed read. Maybe you are assuming your capabilities are as good as they get?

This is recreation for me; a different kind of writing that pushes thought in different directions - a sounding board, if you will.

All stories do not consist of rainbows, bunnies and friends who never do you wrong; sometimes you need inspiration from advertisty. You gain from seeing how other people react. In the meantime, maybe you effect change; maybe you cause people to think. In the end, I've lost nothing. These people have noticed me; they have said the work was good; they just clearly don't know what to do with me. As someone under the impression this is a business with professionals trained to handle these situations, I wonder why these professionals do not act as they claim they will act when you do nearly everything right.

Again, I'm not being told I did something wrong in the story or the writing. I was and am at the point where supposedly they start cooperating; they signaled this of their own free will. They refuse to try no matter how nice a person is to them; so the question is why? It does not add up between what we are being told and how it is really handled. That's what should be explored here; it's irrelevant to hear how untalented most of us are or how most just want to do it for money, success, etc. I'm an exception because I could really care less about money, et. al.; but what other motivation would most people have for going through this?

Is writing supposed to be a religion? I think that is how it is most often portrayed by professionals.

MattBrady

03-08-2006, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Why do open submission processes seem designed to fail? Why does no one attempt to correct that public perception in an effort of improved public relations? In the alternative, why are the open submissions not shut down if they can not be manned properly?

Why do professionals behave badly only to rail against anyone who gives as good as they get? Why do professionals not recognize people more often watch what you do instead of what you say?

Why do professionals cultivate a climate of fear?

What does it really take to get into the door when all you hear is "Great work!"? Keep in mind those who are not filthy rich and do not even have the financial capability to chase conventions.

Do with it what you will; I will interrupt the congregation no further. DB, again, I echo what many here are saying - we can see that you're angry and frustrated. But in and of itself, anger will produce very little. As will the above loaded questions - as they're all coming from a specific point of view. The only one that's missing is "have you stopped beating your wife?"

I would respectfully ask that you stop making JMS the focal point of your anger, and stop insutling those who are coming at this with different viewpoints than yours. Again, we all see that you're angry, but lashing out at everyone is not doing you any favors, either personally, or speaking in terms of the larger board community.

As the responses to this thread can attest, the opportunities are there for those who are willing to do the work. Are they the opportunities you want at first? Maybe not. Can they lead you to where you want to go? More than likely.

MattB

mpg

03-08-2006, 12:23 PM

what bothers me most about this type of senario is the industry professional is more compelled to respond to the angry and the frustrated.

its human nature, squeaky wheels and all, but it is just a lousy precident that has been set long ago. I don't fault JMS for that at all (I can't say I would have done anything different), it just feels...lousy

he took the time to share his 30 plus years of experience with us, now he has to take additional time to defend it

that 's a fine how do you do

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Your initial column also mentioned courage. You may not have noticed this, but there is a large fear related to people such as yourself. "Careful what you say, you could be blacklisted for life!" Did you notice the response of Bill Myers after your response last night? To paraphrase, "I should've known better than say anything; my fault; love you, JMS." Mr. Myers did nothing wrong, but he still felt like he had to raise himself up in your eyes after you chimed in again. Why? Fear.

I understand the kind of anger that would lead you to incorrectly paraphrase what I said and do so willfully. I'd like to suggest, however, that it's a silly thing to do when the full text of what you are incorrectly paraphrasing is there for all to see.

I never apologized or said anything was "my fault." You're responsible for your behavior, not me. I was simply remarking that there was no valid reason for me to take your bait and defend my drive and determination. "I should've known better" referred to that, and that alone.

And yes, I did thank JMS. When someone does something for which you are appreciative, I believe a "thank you" is in order. I appreciated this column. Thusly, I thanked JMS. Purty simple.

I realize that you will find a way, any way, to twist what I or anyone else on this board will say in response to your screeds. I realize now it is impossible to get through to you because you will not allow it.

I know there's barely a chance in hell that that this idea will penetrate your brain but I'll try one more time: I've been where you've been, I understand the anger, and it's only hurting you.

Feel free to distort my words again if you must. I won't bother to respond to you again. I'll only say this: the more you lash out at me, the more I see the me that could have been, and it leaves me feeling all the stronger to know I took the better path. You're welcome to walk it too, if you ever decide to get over yourself. There's plenty of room. In fact, I think the amount of space on this road is solely limited by the number of people who desire to walk it.

Wormwood

03-08-2006, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Form rejections are fine; they say in and of themselves that the story and/or script was not liked. I am not sure how anyone could misinterpret that. However, what about a personal e-mail that says the script was liked; and then any further polite communication is ignored? Personally, I liked the guy in this thread who stated that the story script I provided had been done a million times; that is something a person can work with and it took just as much time as saying "Great work!"

The point I have tried to make is that people create duties in every facet of life. I did not expect an e-mail (let alone e-mail response to several different submissions), but the editors took it on themselves to make that e-mail. However, I am apparently being told that after they took that step, they owed no duty to give even a one sentence statement of what a person could do to please them next time? At that point, they owed no duty to answer when it was politely asked what a person could do to please them next time?

I would argue you were told what to do. You were told, "This is really good, but we don't want something with new characters." The implicit message in the email you got, to me would be, "Write something with all existing characters, and send it to us!" I'm curious why you didn't do that.

I mean, to continue with "front door" analogies, it's like you climbed up the fire escape and tried to get in to the window, and someone inside went, "Hey, man, the door's open, you know." And you got mad because he didn't unlock the window.

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by mpg
what bothers me most about this type of senario is the industry professional is more compelled to respond to the angry and the frustrated.

its human nature, squeaky wheels and all, but it is just a lousy precident that has been set long ago. I don't fault JMS for that at all (I can't say I would have done anything different), it just feels...lousy

he took the time to share his 30 plus years of experience with us, now he has to take additional time to defend it

that 's a fine how do you do

I won't speak for JMS or for anyone else but myself. But I see some value in DBHughes posts and in JMS' response.

First, JMS provided further useful information in his response to DBHughes. DBHughes will likely refuse to accept that information. But others can read and benefit from that same information.

Second, DBHughes serves as a perfect example of what happens when you descend into anger and bitterness. I declined to peruse DBHughes' script, as DB claims to be a lawyer and has repeatedly accused us of being potential thieves of his or her intellectual property. But if DBHughes has even a modicum of talent, it's a tragedy to throw that away by insulting industry professionals in a public forum. It's a true-life cautionary tale.

King Oneiros

03-08-2006, 12:51 PM

Great column! Looking forward to the next installment.
So where do you get your ideas?
I believe that is the most asked question to a writer but I think that what is most difficult to achieve is the “voice” of the character. Ideas are easy to find, but how to use them is not so easy.
Any thoughts?

The Shadow

03-08-2006, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Bill Myers
I know this question was directed to JMS, but I wanted to let you know that the BBC offers templates for all kinds of manuscripts, free-of-charge. This includes screenplays, T.V. scripts, plays, novels and more. They're loaded with macros that can be run with special buttons that are built into the templates, so your formatting can be done automatically. You can find them here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/scriptsmart/downloads.shtml

They have U.S. versions of every template.

Microsoft also offers a screenplay template, but I believe the BBC templates to be far more full-featured and useful. Thanks! Very cool of you to post that link! Gotta love the BBC!

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by The Shadow
Thanks! Very cool of you to post that link! Gotta love the BBC!

You're very welcome! Those templates ROCK. They do some (but not all) of the things pricey scriptwriting software packages do, but the stuff on the BBC is free!

Yeah. Gotta love the BBC.

I should add that the comic book script template available via the BBC uses something very similar to screenplay formatting. Most of the examples of comics scripts I've seen have been formatted a bit differently.

Steve Gerber came up with a comic script template that looks more like what I've seen in most submissions guidelines from U.S. comics publishing companies. I stopped using it because it required a little more work on the part of the user, and the comics script I've written is for my self-published creation, so I'm less worried about an editor looking at it and saying, "WTF?" Gerber's template also hadn't been updated in awhile and there were one or two minor conflicts with Word XP (but nothing that would prevent you from using the template).

Gerber's template may still be available online. If it is, and I can find it, I'll post a link here.

Kevin Street

03-08-2006, 01:14 PM

For some other sample scripts (including comic book ones), check out Scryptic Studios (http://www.scrypticstudios.com/linkdb/index.php?c=3).

TCJohnson

03-08-2006, 01:25 PM

I could also recommend the book: Panel One (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0971633800/sr=8-1/qid=1141842457/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0379725-0830228?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 01:37 PM

Here's the aforementioned link to Gerber's templates:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgerber/TEMPLATS.HTM

Fscript 95 works with Word XP (I've tried it) with only one or two minor glitches that amount to nothing more than small inconveniences. It lets you format scripts in a way that is similar to most of the formats I've seen in comics publishing companies submissions guidelines, and automates a lot of formatting tasks so you can spend more time writing.

UX-Gal

03-08-2006, 01:39 PM

Awesome column. Very encouraging... and entertaining! Looking forward to the next :)

DBHughes

03-08-2006, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by MattBrady
DB, again, I echo what many here are saying - we can see that you're angry and frustrated. But in and of itself, anger will produce very little. As will the above loaded questions - as they're all coming from a specific point of view. The only one that's missing is "have you stopped beating your wife?"

I thought that was one of the points in the column; writers give their own point of view. I do not see anyone holding JMS down to say only "Yes" or "No" as an answer. JMS can interpret the question any way he sees fit and give (or not give) his perspective. I am not going to be running up again afterward to attempt "twisting" things as I have now been accused of doing by others. Maybe you meant a warning of deleting my posts if I did that run up to do that afterward; and that would be fair. I did not see you say that, though. What I saw was essentially "Don't worry on this one, JMS; free pass. No one expects you to answer." Why don't we let JMS decide that without the nudge and the wink?

You've asked it of me, and I am making a good faith effort whether you believe it or not. I ask in return that you do not blow things out of proportion. Comparing those questions to the "beating your wife" paradox? Come on, Matt. You have to realize the question situations are in no way the same here. None of my questions could even be answered with a simple yes or no.

MattBrady

03-08-2006, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Comparing those questions to the "beating your wife" paradox? Come on, Matt. You have to realize the question situations are in no way the same here. None of my questions could even be answered with a simple yes or no. Neither could "have you stopped beating your wife?" If you answer "yes," then you <i>were</i> beating your wife, and have since stopped; iof you answer "no," you're still beating your wife. There's no way out.

While true, not answerable by a yes or no, "Why do professionals cultivate a climate of fear?" assumes that there is a "climate of fear" to begin with, something that is subjective. There's no way out of that question either. If they start with an "I don't think there is," then in the eyes of the questioner, they're denying the (albeit subjective) obvious.

All your questions were loaded in a similar fashion.

MattB

DBHughes

03-08-2006, 03:15 PM

That characterization too is completely subjective. There are many more options for answering than "I don't think there is..." or "I think there is..." I could list out a half dozen off the top of my head, but then I would be contaminating any potential answer (or non-answer) by "leading". As it is, the entire line of topics has been contaminated enough anyway because you had an itchy trigger finger.

If you don't want JMS to talk about the issues asked, just say it. If all that is acceptable is kisses and love, then trim it that way. There's no reason to go on this endless merry go around about what's loaded and what isn't. You're going to have your opinion; I'm going to have mine; JMS is going to have his. That's why this is called a discussion forum. That's why this column wasn't just linked as a static article.

The difference with you is a position of authority. You have the power to shut things down; so either shut it down or don't. You know when that is appropriate or not; and no one can argue with you even if you know it wasn't the right choice. However, you stepping in to guide the professional on how to answer is just as unhelpful and unproductive. I don't think anyone clicked on this thread to see Matt Brady debate with himself what the professional should or should not answer; we wanted to see if the professional would or would not answer and how that answer would be relayed. JMS shouldn't need coaching; if he thinks the question loaded, he can say that himself with better effect than a surrogate suggesting it. Of course, I fully expect JMS to jump on it now; and we'll just never know whether or not it was his real thought and opinion or just an easy way out taken from the coaching.

chant

03-08-2006, 03:26 PM

I think DBHughes has raised some interesting questions. I know that I've thought about some of them during my experiences submitting work or just even trying to get an audience with a comic book editor.

Re: Bill Myers' comment that he's been there and experienced the pain of trying to break in and that DB Hughes is an example of what happens when a potential pro writer descends into "anger and bitterness". As I mentioned earlier in a post, I can understand why people do get angry and resentful. Wannabes are working 9 to 5 jobs, they write when they get a chance, they have to market themselves, they must show professionalism and courtesy to the ones working the dream jobs as they solicit for advice, encouragement or friendship, and they must also deal with rejection. These are all part of the path any new writer takes when they embark on their career, paying your dues. However, again I would like to point out that unprofessionalism should not reign down upon any wannabe from a comic editor or publisher. That is my biggest complaint from my own experiences and the one that I feel should not be allowed. Doors should not be shut to someone not due to any lack of talent, but because the opportunity never existed in the first place even though submissions were encouraged by the publisher.

Imagine someone saving $5-20k to self-publish their comics after developing their story and/or drawing abilities. They publish the book, they solicit it, they fight the uphill battle of trying to snatch some of the spotlight away from the big players to land some readers. They fly to cons, meet with readers, and have a bad encounter with an editor which makes it appear that the rules you were taught to follow by the publisher in fact don't apply. After putting in hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars into your dream, the door appears to be shut forever to the aspiring creator. Like I said, it's easy to get bitter about it or, what I think is worse, just give up on it. How many great comic stories will we never get to read because some 25-year-old just gave up on trying to become the next Neil Gaiman because he/she felt that the game was somehow rigged?

I think that there are unwritten rules about how to make it in any creative industry and comic are no different than any others. Every creator who has broken in has a different story to tell, meaning that there is no one way that guarantees success. You can learn the craft of story structure, of formatting and listen to related stories about how other pros made it, and from all of that you start to build some ideas for your own position.

I do agree with Mr. Myers that, absolutely, walking away from trying to break in with nothing but feeling angry and frustrated is not the path you want to take. I find that it's OK to get mad, but you've got to learn how to either discard it, lessen its importance or channel it to positive end results, otherwise, it's of no value to the aspiring creator. That took me a lot of painful days and nights to finally realize, but when it happens, you're a better writer and person as a result of it.

I also think that it's great that a pro writer of jms caliber and DBHughes can exchange views from their sides of the same coin. From following the online community, jms has always been good in answering and mixing it up with the online crowd. Name one other creator of a popular sci-fi show where fans could geek out and ask questions to, like what a Vorlon encounter suit is made out of. I'm not blowing smoke up jms' ass, I don't need to and he doesn't need it from me, but it is great for all of us participating in this discussion that he's addressed some of the matters brought up in this conversation.

khuxford

03-08-2006, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
That characterization too is completely subjective. There are many more options for answering than "I don't think there is..." or "I think there is..." I could list out a half dozen off the top of my head, but then I would be contaminating any potential answer (or non-answer) by "leading". As it is, the entire line of topics has been contaminated enough anyway because you had an itchy trigger finger.

If you don't want JMS to talk about the issues asked, just say it. If all that is acceptable is kisses and love, then trim it that way. There's no reason to go on this endless merry go around about what's loaded and what isn't. You're going to have your opinion; I'm going to have mine; JMS is going to have his. That's why this is called a discussion forum. That's why this column wasn't just linked as a static article.

The difference with you is a position of authority. You have the power to shut things down; so either shut it down or don't. You know when that is appropriate or not; and no one can argue with you even if you know it wasn't the right choice. However, you stepping in to guide the professional on how to answer is just as unhelpful and unproductive. I don't think anyone clicked on this thread to see Matt Brady debate with himself what the professional should or should not answer; we wanted to see if the professional would or would not answer and how that answer would be relayed. JMS shouldn't need coaching; if he thinks the question loaded, he can say that himself with better effect than a surrogate suggesting it. Of course, I fully expect JMS to jump on it now; and we'll just never know whether or not it was his real thought and opinion or just an easy way out taken from the coaching.

You'd do better to learn the proper form and style...to learn the system of getting published...than arguing semantics with the host of this web-site and complaining about the attempt to educate by the guest columnist.

TCJohnson

03-08-2006, 03:49 PM

Nevermind.

I think the problem that Matt is having is not that there is a debate going on here, but that there are so many insults being thrown around within the debate.

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by chant
However, again I would like to point out that unprofessionalism should not reign down upon any wannabe from a comic editor or publisher. That is my biggest complaint from my own experiences and the one that I feel should not be allowed. Doors should not be shut to someone not due to any lack of talent, but because the opportunity never existed in the first place even though submissions were encouraged by the publisher.

People should not be mugged, either. People shouldn't have jerks for bosses. People shouldn't have rude neighbors. But they do.

I've been accused of doing the equivalent of devoting my life to searching for unicorns by someone who is demanding a perfect system. The idea of the perfect system is the real unicorn here.

Look, the nature of the world is such that there will always be not-so-nice people who, oddly enough, treat you not-so-nicely. You may as well rail at the rain. No system will ever be perfect. Ever.

Also, the nature of the entertainment industry is that there will always be a huge ratio of applicants to open slots. That's how it is.

The entertainment industry is not like the health care system. A lot of people, myself included, tend to think that good health care is not something that should be denied to someone. I do not believe in any such entitlement to participate in the entertainment industry. So let's say for the sake of argument (and it is only for the sake of argument because I don't believe this is a valid assertion) that the gatekeepers between us and the nice writing gigs are all heartless jerks.

So what?

So. What?

You want to spend time complaining about it, go right ahead. It'll getcha nowhere.

Anyway, to the relief of some (perhaps many) of you I'll make this my last word on the subject. I'm getting tired of arguing around in circles. I'm going to go work on drawing the first issue of my comic and writing the second issue. And maybe if there's time I'll even start another comic book project for self-publishing (although I may end up finding that that equates with suicide and have to stick with one project!).

You know what? Thus far, only one person has responded to my request to read and review my script online (thanks, Not From Around!).

Only. One.

And I am not complaining, I am not angry, I am not bitter. Quite the opposite, I am thrilled! "One" is a number to build on. I will keep at it, try harder, and be better with each successive story I write. I will turn that "one" into a much bigger number.

And I'll do it by earning it, not by crying out that the world owes me what I want.

JMS, look forward to future installments of your column, even as my knees knock in fear of you and my lips get chapped from kissing your (expletive deleted) in the vain hope that you notice me. Because it couldn't possibly be that I'm just being polite, now, can it? ;)

Not From Around

03-08-2006, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
In an age where the internet practically did not exist (the 1980's), 3,000 people were able to find the proper address to mail a submission; but in converse, apparently only 1 of these people was able to string a few sentences together into a coherent thought.

We hear this kind of example from every professional source; thousands of people have the intellect to get the script before the right person, but only 1 or 2 were able to convey a thought. Taking off your professional hat for a moment, how do you reconcile that paradox without insulting those who submitted?

There is a lot more to writing a story than "stringing a few sentences together into a coherent thought." To write a good story one has to understand how plot, setting, dialogue, characterization, and action work. Writing a script, which must serve to guide an artist, also takes a formal understanding of what a script should look like. There are a lot of people quite capable of writing a few coherent sentences who are nonetheless weak in one or more of these areas. Most people are; it takes a lot of work to learn the ins and outs of writing. I've written hundreds of thousands of words' worth of stories, and I still have areas much in need of improvement.

It is no insult to tell a person (either in so many words or by simply not accepting the submission) that he or she has not written a professional-quality story. That is a skill set that only a relatively few people have pushed to a high level of development.

MattBrady

03-08-2006, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
JMS shouldn't need coaching; if he thinks the question loaded, he can say that himself with better effect than a surrogate suggesting it. Of course, I fully expect JMS to jump on it now; and we'll just never know whether or not it was his real thought and opinion or just an easy way out taken from the coaching. Wow. Just...wow. Add me to the list of people wondering why you can't get a job writing fiction.

I'm done with this stuff. You've got all the doors blocked, questions answered, and ears muffled. Enjoy yourself. I'll only be back if trouble's reported.

MattB

Whipsnakes

03-08-2006, 04:54 PM

Best article I have ever seen here.

I sent the article to a friend and she replied

" What the freakin' fu**! That was insanely coincidental. You couldn't have sent that to me at a better time. I have been thinking about everything that he mentioned for days, weeks, years now - and he is dead on when it comes to the mind of a writer.

Write, don't talk."

She goes on and on about it, and how she printed it up and what not.

Now hurry up and finish up the MK version of Supreme Power.

Not From Around

03-08-2006, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by chant
How many great comic stories will we never get to read because some 25-year-old just gave up on trying to become the next Neil Gaiman because he/she felt that the game was somehow rigged?

That's an imponderable, like the poet's question of whether the village church yard contains: "Some mute, inglorious Milton...Some Cromwell innocent of his country's blood." It reminds me of the speculation that perhaps the world's greatest natural-born artist was a disadvantaged character who never had a chance and died on the street without ever having been able to give the world the great works he could have created.

There's this widespread romantic view of creativity as something mystical that is inherent to a person--that some people are natural-born creative geniuses. But really, being able to write or draw or play music is a matter of developing skills. Some individuals in some hard-to-define way are able to produce work that really speaks to others. But they do so after developing the skills. An artist or writer is only as good as what he or she actually does. Or to quote a line from the latest Batman movie: "It's not who you are, it's what you do."

chant

03-08-2006, 05:27 PM

Mr. Myers,

I know you said in your last post that you're last post was also your final word on this subject, but in case you change your mind I had to throw my comments out there for you to read.

Your opinion is that people that complain about the system of becoming a professional comic book writer (or artist, for that matter) won't get you anywhere. I contend that people who do complain, be it in anger or in the coherent structured form of debate, are exposing their thoughts on ways that the system can be changed for the better.

Yes, people have jerks for bosses, and rude neighbors and get mugged. Wannabe comic creators also run into unprofessionalism. If you're suggesting that speaking one's mind about unjust treatment is "complaining", then I'm happy to be labelled a complainer.

You might recall that about 150 years ago people with a different skin color complained about the way that they were being treated in America, and change came about. Of course, the comparison between slavery and breaking into the comics medium is as about as far as one can get, but remember that you started with the analogies and presented the idea that complaining gets you nowhere. A positive discussion shouldn't be lumped under the definition of "complaining"

To use another extreme example, one of which I'm aware to have happened: what should the wannabe comic creator do when they're told that it's pointless to try and submit for a certain book because, to paraphrase the editor, the creator physical traits doesn't fit a certain mindset that the editor believes the readers have about who works on a certain book? You don't think that sexism or racism exists in the comic book community? It does. I haven't encountered it because I'm a white, straight male and the majority of pros are the same as me, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened to people I know. Should the teenage girl that wants to write a certain book be told that since there's been no other female writers on said book, she should try working on something else? That stinks.

You may find strength in focusing your energies on your writing, but for guys like myself, I want a discussion to happen on some of the seedier things that happen to the wannabes trying to break in.

You say that it doesn't matter if the so-called gatekeepers of the comic industry are heartless jerks because, in the end, complaining about it gets you nowhere. I don't recall stating that all the gatekeepers are jerks; in fact, I made mention of two specific individuals that I felt were stellar examples of comic pros helping to nurture the wannabes out there. But let's use your thought experiment for a moment: suppose that they're all bigoted jerks filled with nepotism and cronyism. You still think that I want to talk about changing things for the better? You better believe it, because in the end, I might as well turn your question around on you and ask: so what? So what if you create your own comic books? You'll never have the financial reach of a major publisher. You'll never get to write new stories featuring characters that were around before you were born. And finally, you'll never make enough money from publishing your own work to do it as a steady paying gig.

That's what happens when you toss out "So what?" and reduce the discussion down to you're either a complainer or not.

There's lots to like about comics and the people that write, draw and publish them. Those of us that haven't had our big break don't know what the grass really looks like from their side; we don't know what it's like to be a pro who may have to wrestle with creative drought, a difference of creative opinion between yourself and the editor and so on. Look at what jms did by merely writing a column hoping to give some advice to aspiring creators, the poor bastard opened up Pandora's Box once again on Newsarama.

Finally, you mention that only one person requested to read your script. So far I have read DBHughes proposal for his X-Men Unlimited story (I generally liked it, especially the panel where Xavier loses it. Thought it was a good short story for the X-Universe with an interesting mutant power and problem associated with it.) I also did follow the link from your sig to your site, saw that your script is a PDF, filed away a mental note to d/l it and read it later when I have the time, and checked out your blog. There's not a lot in your blog which explains the idea behind your superhero and I wish there was more to it so I could check out the "appetizer" portion and then see if I wanted to order the "full meal." Just because you don't see people mentioning it to you on here doesn't mean that we're not looking at what you're doing.

Now if this wannabe has to portion out my time just to read a script from another wannabe, I can imagine what kind of time restrictions a comic book editor has. Just like everyone of us, some days they might not be into it as much as others. And again, my point of "complaining" is not about a lack of resources for said editor, but that our understanding of the submission process for wannabes may be out of touch with the reality of what actually goes on and that the cold hard truth behind breaking in may be actually a lot colder and harder than is generally believed to be.

Good luck with your endeavors, and write that kick ass book that you know you can create.

Originally posted by Bill Myers
People should not be mugged, either. People shouldn't have jerks for bosses. People shouldn't have rude neighbors. But they do.

I've been accused of doing the equivalent of devoting my life to searching for unicorns by someone who is demanding a perfect system. The idea of the perfect system is the real unicorn here.

Look, the nature of the world is such that there will always be not-so-nice people who, oddly enough, treat you not-so-nicely. You may as well rail at the rain. No system will ever be perfect. Ever.

Also, the nature of the entertainment industry is that there will always be a huge ratio of applicants to open slots. That's how it is.

The entertainment industry is not like the health care system. A lot of people, myself included, tend to think that good health care is not something that should be denied to someone. I do not believe in any such entitlement to participate in the entertainment industry. So let's say for the sake of argument (and it is only for the sake of argument because I don't believe this is a valid assertion) that the gatekeepers between us and the nice writing gigs are all heartless jerks.

So what?

So. What?

You want to spend time complaining about it, go right ahead. It'll getcha nowhere.

Anyway, to the relief of some (perhaps many) of you I'll make this my last word on the subject. I'm getting tired of arguing around in circles. I'm going to go work on drawing the first issue of my comic and writing the second issue. And maybe if there's time I'll even start another comic book project for self-publishing (although I may end up finding that that equates with suicide and have to stick with one project!).

You know what? Thus far, only one person has responded to my request to read and review my script online (thanks, Not From Around!).

Only. One.

And I am not complaining, I am not angry, I am not bitter. Quite the opposite, I am thrilled! "One" is a number to build on. I will keep at it, try harder, and be better with each successive story I write. I will turn that "one" into a much bigger number.

And I'll do it by earning it, not by crying out that the world owes me what I want.

JMS, look forward to future installments of your column, even as my knees knock in fear of you and my lips get chapped from kissing your (expletive deleted) in the vain hope that you notice me. Because it couldn't possibly be that I'm just being polite, now, can it? ;)

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 06:35 PM

I know I said my last words would be my last words. Maybe these'll be my last words for real, instead? Here goes:

Originally posted by chant
Mr. Myers,

Seriously? Please call me Bill. No need to stand on formality with me.

Originally posted by chant
I know you said in your last post that you're last post was also your final word on this subject, but in case you change your mind I had to throw my comments out there for you to read.

Your opinion is that people that complain about the system of becoming a professional comic book writer (or artist, for that matter) won't get you anywhere. I contend that people who do complain, be it in anger or in the coherent structured form of debate, are exposing their thoughts on ways that the system can be changed for the better.

Yes, people have jerks for bosses, and rude neighbors and get mugged. Wannabe comic creators also run into unprofessionalism. If you're suggesting that speaking one's mind about unjust treatment is "complaining", then I'm happy to be labelled a complainer.

You might recall that about 150 years ago people with a different skin color complained about the way that they were being treated in America, and change came about. Of course, the comparison between slavery and breaking into the comics medium is as about as far as one can get, but remember that you started with the analogies and presented the idea that complaining gets you nowhere. A positive discussion shouldn't be lumped under the definition of "complaining"

The problem with your analogy is that it fails on two fronts. First, I believe that receiving fair treatment regardless of skin color is a fundamental human right. Getting an editor/producer/whomever to read your story is not a fundamental human right. Conflating the two isn't just "extreme," it's entirely illogical. That's why I compared health care to employment in the entertainment industry in my earlier post: to illustrate the difference between something that I think is a human right (basic health care) and something that is not (getting a gig as a writer). If my earlier post didn't make that clear, I apologize.

Second, to say that civil rights activists "complained" in order to get things changed is a gross mischaracterization of the heroic struggle and sacrifice of those courageous people. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his followers exposed themselves to physical harm and even jeopardized their own lives in order to effect change. They literally bled and in some cases died in order to obtain something to which all human beings are inherently entitled: access to the same opportunities as whites. Not the same outcomes, mind you -- just the same opportunities to achieve those outcomes.

So if an oppressed minority could rise up and use non-violent resistance to force the white majority to give them something (or at least some of the things, as it seems the battle never truly ends) to which they were entitled by their Creator, I think those of us who want to write can put up with some hurt feelings in order to achieve something to which we are most definitely not entitled.

Originally posted by chant
To use another extreme example, one of which I'm aware to have happened: what should the wannabe comic creator do when they're told that it's pointless to try and submit for a certain book because, to paraphrase the editor, the creator physical traits doesn't fit a certain mindset that the editor believes the readers have about who works on a certain book? You don't think that sexism or racism exists in the comic book community? It does. I haven't encountered it because I'm a white, straight male and the majority of pros are the same as me, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened to people I know. Should the teenage girl that wants to write a certain book be told that since there's been no other female writers on said book, she should try working on something else? That stinks.

Yes, but now you're just throwing everything but the kitchen sink into the argument. We were discussing whether or not it's fair Marvel to close itself to submissions from non-published writers. As I pointed out above, that's an entirely different discussion from one about racism and sexism. Conflating the two does nothing to advance this discussion.

Originally posted by chant
You may find strength in focusing your energies on your writing, but for guys like myself, I want a discussion to happen on some of the seedier things that happen to the wannabes trying to break in.

The problem is that you're lumping callous indifference to newbies together with racism and sexism when talking about "seedier" things. And you know, anecdotes are of limited use when talking about these problems. Can you cite any data about the extent to which racism and sexism are holding back creators? Because the extent to which the problem exists will help determine the appropriate remedy. A few isolated incidents should be dealth with differently than an industry-wide pattern.

See the problem with just throwing "racism" and "sexism" and other "isms" into a discussion in order to save a losing argument? Unless you're armed with real knowledge, you're doing nothing more than using hyper-emotion as a smokescreen. And more than likely, you'll get called on it.

Originally posted by chant
You say that it doesn't matter if the so-called gatekeepers of the comic industry are heartless jerks because, in the end, complaining about it gets you nowhere. I don't recall stating that all the gatekeepers are jerks; in fact, I made mention of two specific individuals that I felt were stellar examples of comic pros helping to nurture the wannabes out there.

Yeah, I know. I was responding to DBHughes' rants at that point. Sorry I didn't make myself more clear.

Originally posted by chant
But let's use your thought experiment for a moment: suppose that they're all bigoted jerks filled with nepotism and cronyism. You still think that I want to talk about changing things for the better? You better believe it, because in the end, I might as well turn your question around on you and ask: so what? So what if you create your own comic books? You'll never have the financial reach of a major publisher. You'll never get to write new stories featuring characters that were around before you were born. And finally, you'll never make enough money from publishing your own work to do it as a steady paying gig.

Says who??? Dave Sim did it with "Cerebus." Jeff Smith did it with "Bone." Those are but two examples. There are other self-publishers whose books were picked up by other publishers, but with deals that gave the creators legal control over their works (the latter arrangement still presents the possibility of the loss of control over your work, such as if the publisher goes bankrupt and your work gets caught up in legal red tape, but that is a discussion I don't have time to engage in).

You're having a problem with gauging how you know what you know. In other words, assuming that if you're unaware of successful self-publishers, they don't exist. Just because you're unaware of something doesn't mean it's not out there.

Mind you, I know the odds are against me making a living at self-publishing. Doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth trying.

Originally posted by chant
That's what happens when you toss out "So what?" and reduce the discussion down to you're either a complainer or not.

I didn't "reduce" the discussion to that any more than I invented rain or the sky. That really is the issue. You and DBHughes can try to dress it up however you like, but when it comes to something to which you are not entitled, like a job as a writer, you can either complain or give up, or try to earn it. As JMS pointed out, you can try to change the system but when human beings are involved it inevitably becomes corrupted. And as a happy capitalist, I don't want to see the government pass "anti-not-nice-to-unpublished writers" laws.

Originally posted by chant
There's lots to like about comics and the people that write, draw and publish them. Those of us that haven't had our big break don't know what the grass really looks like from their side; we don't know what it's like to be a pro who may have to wrestle with creative drought, a difference of creative opinion between yourself and the editor and so on. Look at what jms did by merely writing a column hoping to give some advice to aspiring creators, the poor bastard opened up Pandora's Box once again on Newsarama..

Oh, DBHughes is gonna have a field day with this.

No. JMS did not, I repeat, not open up "Pandora's Box." He gave sound advice based on his experience. He is not responsible for what other people have posted in this thread. And I ask you to think about something: what makes you and DBHughes think that a lack of experience as a professional writer gives you a better perspective on the industry than someone like JMS who actually has the experience?

Originally posted by chant
Finally, you mention that only one person requested to read your script. So far I have read DBHughes proposal for his X-Men Unlimited story (I generally liked it, especially the panel where Xavier loses it. Thought it was a good short story for the X-Universe with an interesting mutant power and problem associated with it.) I also did follow the link from your sig to your site, saw that your script is a PDF, filed away a mental note to d/l it and read it later when I have the time, and checked out your blog. There's not a lot in your blog which explains the idea behind your superhero and I wish there was more to it so I could check out the "appetizer" portion and then see if I wanted to order the "full meal." Just because you don't see people mentioning it to you on here doesn't mean that we're not looking at what you're doing.

Aw, DBHughes is gonna have a field week with this one. My fault, seriously, for the way I wrote that portion of my last post. Yeah, I know, just because people aren't mentioning it or posting reviews in my blog doesn't mean they're not paying attention to my work. My point was that even if only one person thus far has shown any interest in even glancing at what I've done, it's a start.

And frankly, I am grateful for any interest shown by anyone. No one is obligated to read my comic. We all have other things to do, especially those of us who are wanna-be creators. Anyone who has checked out my script has my sincerest thanks. Anyone who then comes back for more will receive gratitude upon gratitude from me. Because right now, I'm no one.

And thank you for the suggestion about the teaser. I think I'll put one up tonight. It's a terrific idea and I very much appreciate you sharing it with me. While it's not up to me, I think people sharing advice and knowledge with each other is a far better use of this thread than complaining about "the system."

Originally posted by chant
Now if this wannabe has to portion out my time just to read a script from another wannabe, I can imagine what kind of time restrictions a comic book editor has. Just like everyone of us, some days they might not be into it as much as others. And again, my point of "complaining" is not about a lack of resources for said editor, but that our understanding of the submission process for wannabes may be out of touch with the reality of what actually goes on and that the cold hard truth behind breaking in may be actually a lot colder and harder than is generally believed to be.

I don't think JMS in any way attempted to varnish the truth (please pass the chapstick, DBHughes :rolleyes: ). He merely pointed out that every successful writer has faced the same cold hard truth behind breaking in and still made it into the business. So it's possible to do. I don't understand why so many people insist on trying to make a negative out of that.

Originally posted by chant
Good luck with your endeavors, and write that kick ass book that you know you can create.

Thank you for your encouragement. If I may suggest, anyone can get a Web site hosted cheaply these days. And if you're not interested in building your own Web site as I have, some Web hosts offer inexpensive tools you can use to build your site even if all you know how to do is use a keyboard and a mouse. It's a great way to showcase your work when you're starting out.

And I'm sorry if I seemed a bit rough on you. I hate to offend a potential reader! :eek: But I thought it would be better to be honest about my thoughts than try to please everyone in hopes of getting them all to come to my site.

If you do read the book, I'd be grateful for any comments you care to share. If you don't, I understand that and still wish you the best of luck with your endeavors.

OK, with that, I really, really, really haveta stop posting in this thread.

Edited to substitute the phrase "I ask you to think about something" for the phrase "I want you to think about something." Because the latter sounds like a demand and I have no place making such a demand.

AndrewHickey

03-08-2006, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Bill Myers

Anyway, to the relief of some (perhaps many) of you I'll make this my last word on the subject. I'm getting tired of arguing around in circles. I'm going to go work on drawing the first issue of my comic and writing the second issue. And maybe if there's time I'll even start another comic book project for self-publishing (although I may end up finding that that equates with suicide and have to stick with one project!).

You know what? Thus far, only one person has responded to my request to read and review my script online (thanks, Not From Around!).

Only. One.

I didn't actually see that request - what was the link? I'd be interested in reading it...

JLAJRC

03-08-2006, 07:05 PM

I got to admit I've been enjoying what's being said in the posts here. But I do hope that the general question of "How do you get your foot in the door?." This doesn't just go for publishing, but for practically any profession.

For example, I've read business books and textbooks that basically boil down to "Work Hard you'll get ahead." No guidelines to follow, no rules or principles to help, just a simple "Work hard." message. But then the question should become "What separates someone who works hard to pay the bills, take care of their family, etc. from someone like a Donald Trump, Bill Gates, or any other successful person." I know Trump worked hard to get where he is, but what separates him from from a poor, but hard-working person. That question is rarely answered.

If I wanted a Dr Phil-type "Work Hard" answer, I'd watch him. I feel there are tons of people who are motivated, willing to work hard, are good people, but they just don't know what the next step is. That's what needs answered more often.

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
I didn't actually see that request - what was the link? I'd be interested in reading it...

Aw, crap, I've been called out!

Seriously, the link is included below in my signature.

I've put your site on my favorites list. Haven't had the chance to do more than peruse it but it looks interesting. My sensibilities are very traditional. Yours appear to be more unconventional. Those unconventional sensibilities should make for an interesting read.

And I wish I wish I wish I'd never written that "Only. One." comment. I wasn't complaining, seriously. I was honestly trying to say that even if I got only one "hit" out of my request that people read and review my story, that in and of itself is reason to be thrilled. "One" is a number to build on. Actually, zilch is a number to build on, too, since you can't go any lower. But I prefer "one" to "none." :D

Bill Myers

03-08-2006, 07:39 PM

AndrewHickey

03-09-2006, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by Bill Myers
Aw, crap, I've been called out!

Seriously, the link is included below in my signature.

Sorry, I'm a moron - I have signature view turned off by default on these forums, and didn't think to look there.

I've put your site on my favorites list. Haven't had the chance to do more than peruse it but it looks interesting. My sensibilities are very traditional. Yours appear to be more unconventional. Those unconventional sensibilities should make for an interesting read.

Oh, I'm conventional enough most of the time, but the topic in question really demands a different approach. Unfortunately, it takes a *LONG* time to do - a single *PANEL* of that stuff can take 12 hours - which (coupled with intermittent net access, and things like getting married in January) is why it's not updated very much over the last year...it'll get done eventually, just slower than I'd like...

AricMitchell

03-09-2006, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by JLAJRC
I got to admit I've been enjoying what's being said in the posts here. But I do hope that the general question of "How do you get your foot in the door?." This doesn't just go for publishing, but for practically any profession.

For example, I've read business books and textbooks that basically boil down to "Work Hard you'll get ahead." No guidelines to follow, no rules or principles to help, just a simple "Work hard." message. But then the question should become "What separates someone who works hard to pay the bills, take care of their family, etc. from someone like a Donald Trump, Bill Gates, or any other successful person." I know Trump worked hard to get where he is, but what separates him from from a poor, but hard-working person. That question is rarely answered.

If I wanted a Dr Phil-type "Work Hard" answer, I'd watch him. I feel there are tons of people who are motivated, willing to work hard, are good people, but they just don't know what the next step is. That's what needs answered more often.

I've struggled with this myself, and I by no means feel I'm over that hump yet. But, it's important you don't gloss over the "work hard" message because it isn't what you want to hear. Because it is the most important thing to remember, and if you don't get it down first and foremost, you'll never have an opportunity no matter how much you know about submissions, or how many you send out.

I recently had the good fortune of being picked up by a publisher. Because I have a hang-up of discussing details before I have the book in my hand, I will not divulge any of the actual project. But I will say I'm working with professionals now. I've got a great editor and a wonderful collaborator, and the book should be out on the direct and mass markets by the end of the year.

I tell you this not to brag (what good would that do before it's gone to press?), but to bring up how I got this far. I loved the column and hang on JMS's words since RISING STARS (that's the book that brought me back from a 10-year hiatus from comics), but I feel it may be helpful to some of you to hear what it's taken of me to get to this point, since I started out on the project four years ago, and I am still struggling with a full-time job and a family. Like many of you, I felt the frustration of the closed submissions at DC and, at the time, Marvel. I got nowhere with Dark Horse either, and Image wanted art and story. After browsing more of the Independents (I got on comicbookresources.com and found links to all the smaller publishers and got busy), I found out most had a policy like Image. As a writer with no artistic abilities in the drawing sense, I begrudgingly headed my ass over to Digital Webbing and ComicBookClassifieds and started looking for a collaborator. I got many responses from artists equally desperate to break in. Most of them were either terrible or unreliable. Then, out of about two dozen, I finally got a response with some potential. So I checked out his site, contacted him with some pages of the script, he liked what he saw, and we've been together ever since.

We've both been through hell -- and TONS of rejections -- over the last four years, but we kept on trying. I, at one point, could see eye-to-eye with all DB's posts, and would have probably even chimed in with support had I been a big message board nut at the time. But my artist friend and I kept plugging along and didn't stop to rant at the world. Finally, we got some interest from a small anthology title, which has yet to see publication (and probably never will). We decided we were going to do it, when we found the web address of a new company, which looked to have some major potential. We sent them the materials and beat out over 100 other submissions. Now they're wanting to publish us as a graphic novel, and I'm excited. We've got the contracts signed, and we're conferencing at regular intervals to discuss all the details (story logic, art and script revisions, marketing, etc.). The compensation plan is more than fair, and our editor is a really hands-off kind of guy, but his insights have been very valuable in making the title more than it already was.

As for my personal life, I am married and work over 40 hours per week. When I get home at night, I slave on new projects and our existing one. I continue to add to the story in case of any planned follow-ups. I give days off to my wife, but most of the time, I'm working 3-5 hours per night, and on week-ends after my wife is in bed. And I'm constantly in contact with my artist (who is also my co-collaborator). I didn't do all of this alone, but I did have the fortitude to stick with it even at the bleakest moments. I had a collaborator I could trust, a supportive wife, and now, a great editor. And all this I've done from western Arkansas - nary a creative Mecca in sight. I feel I'm a talented writer because I know enough to go back after I've written something and judge it harshly. I take criticism well, and I understand writing without an audience in mind is just masturbation. Add to that the long hours and persistence I have given my dream, and I've accomplished far more, even at this point, than anyone would think possible given my geography. I think too many folks (not the previous poster or even DB) are looking for an easy answer. The fact there is not one serves to frustrate them more. But frustration is part of the process. It WILL rear its ugly head, and it's all about how you deal with it from there. That, I think, is what separates the winners from the losers. Remember, most overnight successes are years in the making. A cliche? Perhaps. But that doesn't stop it from being true.

Bill Myers

03-09-2006, 10:05 AM

Hell, I don't even know if anyone is still reading this thread! For all I know my blather killed it...

You know, when I build up a head of steam I can get rather preachy, I know. Don't get me wrong, I stand by what I said. I just don't like the way that I said it.

Now that I've had a chance to simmer down, though, I've been thinking (yes, I do that sometimes). I don't think complaining about the system (or just lashing out at everyone and anyone in sight like DBHughes) is productive. But that doesn't mean we all have to be meek little pussycats and just accept what fate hands us.

We can help each other. We did a little of that in this thread, like when I posted a link to the BBC's free script templates, and others followed with links to script samples and books and other goodies. Another great example was when Chant suggested an improvement to my Web site (a suggestion I adopted last night when I got home from work).

So I propose we continue to help each other. Here's my idea for anyone interested: I'd like to start a "hyperlink exchange." I have a Web site for my comic book and I'm going to create a page of links soon. If there are any aspiring writers/artists reading this thread who also have their own Web site (or dedicated space on a shared site, for that matter), I would be willing to post your link on my site if you would do the same for me.

Let's also give each other permission not to accept links to sites with content we find outrageously offensive. Neo-nazi propaganda, for example, doesn't work for me! Outside of that, however, I'll post your link even if your work isn't exactly my cup of tea. I've no interest in being an art critic. This is about mutual support.

You can contact me via my Web site, which you can access via the link in my signature. Please forgive me if my response is not speedy! I have a lot on my plate right now. But please trust me, I will act on any e-mails expressing interest in a hyperlink exchange.

Bill Myers

03-09-2006, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by AricMitchell
I've struggled with this myself, and I by no means feel I'm over that hump yet...

During the time that I was screwing around writing my last post, someone else joined the fray! Cool.

Thanks for sharing those valuable insights. You may not be "over the hump" but you're much further along than I. Good luck and I will try to keep an eye out for your book when it hits the stands.

OK, with that, no more posting in this thread for me. I've said more than my fair share. I don't care if someone posts with something like, "Your mother wears army boots, Myers!"

(Oh, and I hope someone else posts after this. I hate having mine be the last post in a thread. It's a weird, neurotic thing, I admit, but there you go.)

jamdav86

03-09-2006, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Bill Myers
(Oh, and I hope someone else posts after this. I hate having mine be the last post in a thread. It's a weird, neurotic thing, I admit, but there you go.)

Don't worry, I'm used to killing threads! :)

I'll check out your webcomic when I have time, but right now I have work to do.

Not From Around

03-09-2006, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by AricMitchell
And all this I've done from western Arkansas - nary a creative Mecca in sight.

I bet you can at least buy comics in western Arkansas. Here in southeastern Arkansas you can't even do that!

Seriously, I'm sure it has been a struggle. Arkansas is definitely not close to the centers of any form of publishing. I still prefer living here to living in Nashville and hearing ambulances, choppers, and gunshots all night long, though!

I don't suppose you've ever talked to Michael Tierney, have you? He owns the comics shops in Little Rock and has self-published before. Arkansas comics creators ought to stick together!

I'm glad you have a supportive collaborator and wife and wish you well in your upcoming launch.

AricMitchell

03-09-2006, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Not From Around
I bet you can at least buy comics in western Arkansas. Here in southeastern Arkansas you can't even do that!

Seriously, I'm sure it has been a struggle. Arkansas is definitely not close to the centers of any form of publishing. I still prefer living here to living in Nashville and hearing ambulances, choppers, and gunshots all night long, though!

I don't suppose you've ever talked to Michael Tierney, have you? He owns the comics shops in Little Rock and has self-published before. Arkansas comics creators ought to stick together!

I'm glad you have a supportive collaborator and wife and wish you well in your upcoming launch.

Thanks for the kind words. You really don't expect to find a fellow Arkansan on one of these boards. As for Michael, I don't know him personally, but my brother does. He used to do a lot of work in the Little Rock area. Michael's WILD STARS, while I'm not particularly fond of it (though I will admit I haven't read all of it either) was an inspiration. It was a large, ambitious project, and he stuck with it till it was finished. I plan on picking up the whole thing next time I'm there just to show my support, and to give it a second chance in the full context. After all, you're right. We really should stick together, as far removed from the rest of humanity as we are. Sometimes I feel like Kurt Russell in THE THING where I live. My publisher is even in a completely different part of the country, so I've gotta do everything by e-mail and chat. Thank God for the Internet. I don't know what people in our situation did before it came along.

Not From Around

03-09-2006, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by AricMitchell
Thanks for the kind words. You really don't expect to find a fellow Arkansan on one of these boards. As for Michael, I don't know him personally, but my brother does. He used to do a lot of work in the Little Rock area. Michael's WILD STARS, while I'm not particularly fond of it (though I will admit I haven't read all of it either) was an inspiration. It was a large, ambitious project, and he stuck with it till it was finished. I plan on picking up the whole thing next time I'm there just to show my support, and to give it a second chance in the full context. After all, you're right. We really should stick together, as far removed from the rest of humanity as we are. Sometimes I feel like Kurt Russell in THE THING where I live. My publisher is even in a completely different part of the country, so I've gotta do everything by e-mail and chat. Thank God for the Internet. I don't know what people in our situation did before it came along.

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm an Arkansas native. I spent some years in the big city, and it never really felt like home. While the place where we live now is many miles from where I grew up, it still feels like home in a way no other part of the country does. My brother in the army says that Arkansas natives in the service always recognize each other when they meet.

I had the good fortune in my pre-Internet youth to live near a college town and its libraries. Now I'm a long way from any colleges after working for one for a long time. You miss that sometimes, but living near rural roots is worth the tradeoff. And the Internet now means that it's less of a tradeoff in some ways than it once was.

I plan to pick up "Wild Stars" next time I'm in Little Rock myself. Again, good luck with your own venture.

some_bloke

03-09-2006, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Eric Palicki
You're gentlemen and scholars.

But are they acrobats?
:)

AricMitchell

03-09-2006, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Not From Around
Well, I don't know about you, but I'm an Arkansas native. I spent some years in the big city, and it never really felt like home. While the place where we live now is many miles from where I grew up, it still feels like home in a way no other part of the country does. My brother in the army says that Arkansas natives in the service always recognize each other when they meet.

I had the good fortune in my pre-Internet youth to live near a college town and its libraries. Now I'm a long way from any colleges after working for one for a long time. You miss that sometimes, but living near rural roots is worth the tradeoff. And the Internet now means that it's less of a tradeoff in some ways than it once was.

I plan to pick up "Wild Stars" next time I'm in Little Rock myself. Again, good luck with your own venture.

Many thanks. And good luck to you, too. I read somewhere you're a prose writer. I just got through with a six-month workfest on my first novel. I feel it's store ready now, but I'm not about to say it's in no need of repair. There's a topic for future columns -- tips and tricks to refine your manuscript in the final stages. Too many of us overlook it. I know this is the first time I really buckled down and said, "This mother's gonna be professional if it kills me."

One thing I do (and I think it's relevant to comics, too) is use my word processor to weed out adverbs. On my novel, I started from the first page twice and refined things (after extensive outlining and bulleting through the first draft). Then, when I felt it was as good as I could make it, I handed it over to a trusted family member, who wouldn't feed me what he thought I wanted to hear. After I got it back and made the changes, you'd think it would be ready. But I had read how evil adverbs are from more than one pro. So I did a search and find for "ly," and took out just about every one of the things. Two things I've noticed about calling attention to adverbs: 1) It's human nature to use them A LOT. I think this stems from an inherent insecurity we have about length of manuscript. 2) Once you notice them in the rewrite, your mind automatically thinks of other options, all of which usually sound better.

Listen to me. I'm using them now. Of course, I'm not doing this for publication ;).

But seriously, little tedious steps like that can really help a lot of us stand out more b/c the ones who want to "have written" aren't up for the challenge.

I look forward to seeing some of yours, Bill's, and everyone else's work on this board, who are truly in this because it's a passion and not a pipe dream.

straczynski

03-10-2006, 02:51 AM

I extended an offer to discuss things, and give answers, in an open and straight-forward way...and you came back with a set of interrogatories that swung from insulting to patronizing, loaded questions that had little to do with writing and everything to do with your pique. When the tenor of the questions becomes, "How come a no-talent shitheel like you is working and I'm not, and how come you think you're such a big deal," it becomes obvious that there is no conversation going on.

You don't want a conversation, you want a punching bag for your anger. Sorry, but I don't play that game.

There comes a point when one realizes that the other person is not listening, that nothing is getting through, that all the doors are closed, and this person is never going to change his mind, that he has made up his mind about how the universe works, is pissed off about it, and that is well and duly that.

This will be my last reply to you.

jms

Blast-Off

03-10-2006, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by straczynski
I extended an offer to discuss things, and give answers, in an open and straight-forward way...and you came back with a set of interrogatories that swung from insulting to patronizing, loaded questions that had little to do with writing and everything to do with your pique. When the tenor of the questions becomes, "How come a no-talent shitheel like you is working and I'm not, and how come you think you're such a big deal," it becomes obvious that there is no conversation going on.

You don't want a conversation, you want a punching bag for your anger. Sorry, but I don't play that game.

There comes a point when one realizes that the other person is not listening, that nothing is getting through, that all the doors are closed, and this person is never going to change his mind, that he has made up his mind about how the universe works, is pissed off about it, and that is well and duly that.

This will be my last reply to you.

jms

Thank you Mr. Straczynski(sp?). That should be all there is to it. By the by, regardless of what others here have said, I loved what you did with Gwen Stacy and what's going on with the FF right now. You write spidey exactly the way he should be and your Ben Grimm rivals Dan Slott's. You are one of the writers who brought me back into comics along with Jenkins, Vaughn, Bendis, Slott, Bedard and Kirkman. You are part of the new Golden Age of comics. Never forget that!

DBHughes

03-10-2006, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by straczynski
I extended an offer to discuss things, and give answers, in an open and straight-forward way...

But you couldn't even answer how those 3,000 submissions in the 80's were obtained. That's about as straight forward as it can get.

In any case, I said I would not come back to play the "loaded question" game; and I'm not. It just strikes me how much you sound like an old Southern woman who was told a truth she doesn't want to believe. You know what I'm talking about - "Why I neva!" and she storms off. Insulted; how very sorry we all are that you couldn't take it at any perceived degree.

None of this have ever been about just me; there are other people reading who want answers to the same questions whether they will admit it or not - whether they will ask them or not. Ever think about that? That question is rhetorical; so no worry about "loading". ;)

mpg

03-10-2006, 12:36 PM

Never been about you??

Come on, now. You made this ENTIRE THREAD all about you.

You are not representing all prospective writers. Don't kid yourself.

Not From Around

03-10-2006, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by AricMitchell
Many thanks. And good luck to you, too. I read somewhere you're a prose writer. I just got through with a six-month workfest on my first novel. I feel it's store ready now, but I'm not about to say it's in no need of repair. There's a topic for future columns -- tips and tricks to refine your manuscript in the final stages. Too many of us overlook it.

Tell me about it! I've got a big problem with needlessly complex sentences and the old passive voice trap.

It will be some time before I can even seriously think about making something publication-ready. I've got to give priority to finishing my masters' degree in library science for now. And then there's the job itself, of course! In the meantime I'll keep writing stories for my neices for practice. The oldest neice and my brother are my main fans.

Ravengregory

03-10-2006, 12:42 PM

as always....inspirational!

DBHughes

03-10-2006, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by mpg
Never been about you??

Come on, now. You made this ENTIRE THREAD all about you.

You are not representing all prospective writers. Don't kid yourself.

Where do these sweeping generalizations come from? I never said "None of this has been about me."; I said "None of this has been about *just* me." (stating I AM included). I never said "all writers want answers"; I said "other people reading who want answers". (which says just what it does - other people of unknown number).

That's the main problem I've seen from even JMS in this thread; reading comprehension of he and his supporters has been atrocious.

mpg

03-10-2006, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by DBHughes
Where do these sweeping generalizations come from? I never said "None of this has been about me."; I said "None of this has been about *just* me." (stating I AM included). I never said "all writers want answers"; I said "other people reading who want answers". (which says just what it does - other people of unknown number).

That's the main problem I've seen from even JMS in this thread; reading comprehension of he and his supporters has been atrocious.

So , we are to believe that you are asking these questions with others in mind...not just you?? You are so concerned with the poor rejected 3000 people, or the readers of newsarama??

talk about a sweeping generalization

Let people ask their own questions. They dont need your help. I dont think they want you speaking on their behalf.

another sweeping generalization, lumping me in as some supporter of JMS.

let me let you in on a little secret. you can disagree with someone without being a jerk. you don't have to belittle those who don't see things your way to make your points or express your views.

it isnt a mystery as to why you have been met with rejection. but, by all means, continue to show us why.

khuxford

03-10-2006, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by mpg
So , we are to believe that you are asking these questions with others in mind...not just you?? You are so concerned with the poor rejected 3000 people, or the readers of newsarama??

talk about a sweeping generalization

Let people ask their own questions. They dont need your help. I dont think they want you speaking on their behalf.

another sweeping generalization, lumping me in as some supporter of JMS.

let me let you in on a little secret. you can disagree with someone without being a jerk. you don't have to belittle those who don't see things your way to make your points or express your views.

it isnt a mystery as to why you have been met with rejection. but, by all means, continue to show us why.

MPG...thank you for sparing the rest of us the need to respond to him. :D

AricMitchell

03-10-2006, 02:06 PM

It's nice this thread has gotten so large. I just wish most of it were actually about writing and not anger on the part of some for lack of career development. As I said before, with hard work, persistency, and a willingness to press on through the heart of frustration, the things JMS wrote about in this column stand a much better chance of coming true than not abiding the advice. Again, I am from Arkansas and have zero industry contacts, yet I was able to land a publishing deal with a comics company because I didn't give up and I never stopped writing. Ridicule me if you want. I'm not saying it to brag. I'm saying it to show you that it doesn't matter where you're from or whom you know, so long as THE WORK COMES FIRST.

Change the system when you can (if you think you can), but don't think some jackass editor will read what you have to say as an unknown, take it to heart, and change his way of doing things. You can't affect the system till you're inside it. And to get inside, you have to play by some rules, like them or not.

But above all, you NEVER STOP WRITING no matter who says no, or how many times they say it.

Not From Around

03-10-2006, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by AricMitchell
Again, I am from Arkansas and have zero industry contacts, yet I was able to land a publishing deal with a comics company because I didn't give up and I never stopped writing.

I love Arkansas dearly, but it is about as far out of the loop in terms of the comics business as a place can be (except maybe Alaska, Hawaii, and some of the Plains states). If an Arkansan with no contacts can break in, ANYBODY with the necessary talent and skill stands a chance!

Bill Myers

03-10-2006, 04:32 PM

I know I promised to spare all of you from any more of my rants. It's time for me to acknowledge that Newsarama is like crack to me. Plus I'm on vacation this week and have more free time than usual.

Some of you have lamented the level of troll activity in this thread. What I find remarkable, however, is the number of good people I've encountered here. Between Newsarama and PeterDavid.net, I think I've run into three or four nice individuals for every troll I've stumbled over. This thread has been no exception. I've "met" some nice people, "bumped into" some others I already "knew," and have found the experience enjoyable and beneficial.

Aric (hope it's OK that I call you "Aric"), your editing practice of searching for and removing adverbs really piqued my interest. As you've all seen, I over-write and I know it. Sometimes it's what you don't say that counts.

I hope JMS will address things like story structure, style and other topics in subsequent columns. I realize JMS will only have room to scratch the surface of those topics. But, sometimes all one needs is a road-sign that says "knowledge this way." A diligent person can do the rest.

As for the trolls, I've tried to reason with one of 'em to no avail. My effort was sincere, although I suspected it would be doomed to failure. Let's try this -- ignore 'em. Crowd 'em out with posts that share real information, knowledge, experience and encouragement. Because I'm confident we have 'em outnumbered, folks.

ME5

03-10-2006, 06:09 PM

Hello.

To DBHughes: I have silently observed this thread for quite awhile, and feel that I must interject, for some strange reason. I will try to be brief (STOP groaning KHUXFORD! I CAN be brief...I think...;)), but succinct.

I can see why you are frustrated, to a certain degree, but you make a lot of assumptions without anything to back them up. This is where the problem with your argument stems from.

1--For example:

In an age where the internet practically did not exist (the 1980's), 3,000 people were able to find the proper address to mail a submission; but in converse, apparently only 1 of these people was able to string a few sentences together into a coherent thought.

We hear this kind of example from every professional source; thousands of people have the intellect to get the script before the right person, but only 1 or 2 were able to convey a thought. Taking off your professional hat for a moment, how do you reconcile that paradox without insulting those who submitted?

I hate to point it out to you, but knowing how to find a submissions address, tossing a bunch of words on a page, and being able to affix a stamp to the package does not mean you are a competent writer by any measure. Heck, I teach 12 year olds who can do all of that. I am not trying to belittle you or the people who made the submissions, but the reality is that "Yes, 3,000 people were able to find the proper address to mail a submission; but... apparently only 1 of these people was able to string a few sentences together into a coherent thought". It is not a paradox, it is obviously, in the case given, a reality. Also, keep in mind that a competent script is not necessarily going to get anyone hired, either. Why waste money, time, and energy on a "competent" script that needs an editor spending who knows how many hours fixing/adjusting it, when you can read through the scripts looking for the gems that exist that will require a minimal amount of editorial time. Even amazing scripts need editorial touch-ups, so why go through the expense and time necessary to turn something competent into something great when you can wait for something great? Heck, scripts are usually returned to the sender, when rejected, with some commentary, and the same writer can then redo the script and then submit it AGAIN. Mr. Straczynski gave you one anecdote without a ton of detail, and you went to town with it when you have no more than a cursory knowledge of what happened and what was submitted. You then defend this untenable position by stating there must have been some great scripts in the 3000 simply because people know how to toss words on a page and mail them somewhere?!?! Please, take a minute, rethink your position, and try to recognize WHY it is untenable based on the parameters we are discussing.

2--Rejections. When you have thousands of submissions, you don't have the time to send beautifully insightful commentary to every piece of rejected work. Do companies have an obligation to "mitigate the harm" their rejections can cause should not even be a question. How many companies do you apply to for work through the mail or internet and receive a personal "Hey, DBH, thanks for the application, but we are not hiring you because..." that is in-depth and insightful? Most companies either never tell you why you aren't hired, or also send a standard rejection letter unless you are in the office at the time. First, you need to understand that accepting job applications, which is what writing submissions for a Publishing Company are, does not presume "harm" should the individual not be hired;it is simply a job application! Yes, it goes into far more depth than a standard "fill in the blank form" with your personal information, but it is simply an application. As such, it can be rejected without any assumption or worry of "harm" for the applicant. Anyone who suffers "harm" from rejected writing submissions is probably too fragile for the crerative world and all of the accompanying criticism involved in such a public work in any case, no offence meant. Heck, look at the way many creators at this very news site are attacked, and tell me how someone with a fragile ego would survive reading all of the hateful/spiteful/simply nasty monologues people write on sites like this? If a private rejection form is harmful to someone, they better stay out of the writing business...

By the way, the answer to your questions:

The point I have tried to make is that people create duties in every facet of life. I did not expect an e-mail (let alone e-mail response to several different submissions), but the editors took it on themselves to make that e-mail. However, I am apparently being told that after they took that step, they owed no duty to give even a one sentence statement of what a person could do to please them next time? At that point, they owed no duty to answer when it was politely asked what a person could do to please them next time?

is an unfortunate, and resounding "Right!". In other words, the editors do NOT have ANY "duty" to say anything more than "Thanks, but it isn't what we want. Try again.". You are confusing "being nice and helpful" with "duty and obligation". Would it be nice if the editors gave every person who submitted something a detailed critique explaining what was wrong with the submission? Yes, it would. Are they under ANY obligation to do so? None what-so-ever. This is a business, DB, and the amount of time, energy, and money that would go into such a lengthy research process is prohibitive...especially when the gems are so far and few between.

3--The reason for an "unknown" avoiding the "bad behaviour" exhibited by people who have "made it" is simple:they are in a position to act that way because they have paid their dues and can get away with it due to the fact that they make someone a lot of money. A newcomer or someone who isn't even in the Industry trying to act in such a way will never get in because he/she hasn't done anything to earn any slack from th higher ups who can hire and fire at will. Right or wrong doesn't even enter the equation. Bendis can probably tell JQ to "F-Off" with far less risk than "Intern Z" for any number of reasons, but definitely not limited to the fact that Bendis makes Marvel a lot of money, has established his credentials as a creator at Marvel, is friends and has a working relationship with JQ, etc... This is also a simple reality that is exhibited in all walks of life. If you and your brother get into an argument and he tells you where to go, you are less likely to get into a physical confrontation with him than with some stranger on the street who does the same thing. So, again, JMS was simply trying to point out a simple preservation technique, not get into some philosophical debate about whether the reality is right or wrong.

4--Your assumption of fear belies the fact that some people may change their minds in front of a "star" due to respect, or an actual recognition that what that "star" said is correct. Mr. Myers may well have changed his mind out of fear, but he may also have honestly felt what JMS said was right. Your assumption of fear is then hard to disprove because it presumes something that is manipulative and hidden whether it is or not. That is why it is a loaded way of perceiving things. Once you presume fear is the sole motivating factor in anything, you remove all other possibilities becauser fear as a factor can not be erased in your own mind. Sometimes an honest apology is just that.

5--The main thing that makes ANY writer "special" enough to get through the door is always going to be based on a number of factors: timing, voice, topic, skill, perception. Someone will have to read your work, like it, see that it has its own distinct voice, and recognize it as something that can be exploited for purposes of publication in a money making manner. It also has to be able to stand on its own with a guiding editorial hand as opposed to an all-imposing corrective hand.

Holy Cow, so much for brief (STOP LAUGHING, KEV! I tried...:()!!! Lol. Well, I will stop here, and wait to hear from you. If you are interested, we can then tackle your other questions, or pursue the above.

Be Well...:)

khuxford

03-10-2006, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by ME5
Hello.

To DBHughes: I have silently observed this thread for quite awhile, and feel that I must interject, for some strange reason. I will try to be brief (STOP groaning KHUXFORD! I CAN be brief...I think...;)), but succinct.

I can see why you are frustrated, to a certain degree, but you make a lot of assumptions without anything to back them up. This is where the problem with your argument stems from.

1--For example:

I hate to point it out to you, but knowing how to find a submissions address, tossing a bunch of words on a page, and being able to affix a stamp to the package does not mean you are a competent writer by any measure. Heck, I teach 12 year olds who can do all of that. I am not trying to belittle you or the people who made the submissions, but the reality is that "Yes, 3,000 people were able to find the proper address to mail a submission; but... apparently only 1 of these people was able to string a few sentences together into a coherent thought". It is not a paradox, it is obviously, in the case given, a reality. Also, keep in mind that a competent script is not necessarily going to get anyone hired, either. Why waste money, time, and energy on a "competent" script that needs an editor spending who knows how many hours fixing/adjusting it, when you can read through the scripts looking for the gems that exist that will require a minimal amount of editorial time. Even amazing scripts need editorial touch-ups, so why go through the expense and time necessary to turn something competent into something great when you can wait for something great? Heck, scripts are usually returned to the sender, when rejected, with some commentary, and the same writer can then redo the script and then submit it AGAIN. Mr. Straczynski gave you one anecdote without a ton of detail, and you went to town with it when you have no more than a cursory knowledge of what happened and what was submitted. You then defend this untenable position by stating there must have been some great scripts in the 3000 simply because people know how to toss words on a page and mail them somewhere?!?! Please, take a minute, rethink your position, and try to recognize WHY it is untenable based on the parameters we are discussing.

2--Rejections. When you have thousands of submissions, you don't have the time to send beautifully insightful commentary to every piece of rejected work. Do companies have an obligation to "mitigate the harm" their rejections can cause should not even be a question. How many companies do you apply to for work through the mail or internet and receive a personal "Hey, DBH, thanks for the application, but we are not hiring you because..." that is in-depth and insightful? Most companies either never tell you why you aren't hired, or also send a standard rejection letter unless you are in the office at the time. First, you need to understand that accepting job applications, which is what writing submissions for a Publishing Company are, does not presume "harm" should the individual not be hired;it is simply a job application! Yes, it goes into far more depth than a standard "fill in the blank form" with your personal information, but it is simply an application. As such, it can be rejected without any assumption or worry of "harm" for the applicant. Anyone who suffers "harm" from rejected writing submissions is probably too fragile for the crerative world and all of the accompanying criticism involved in such a public work in any case, no offence meant. Heck, look at the way many creators at this very news site are attacked, and tell me how someone with a fragile ego would survive reading all of the hateful/spiteful/simply nasty monologues people write on sites like this? If a private rejection form is harmful to someone, they better stay out of the writing business...

By the way, the answer to your questions:

is an unfortunate, and resounding "Right!". In other words, the editors do NOT have ANY "duty" to say anything more than "Thanks, but it isn't what we want. Try again.". You are confusing "being nice and helpful" with "duty and obligation". Would it be nice if the editors gave every person who submitted something a detailed critique explaining what was wrong with the submission? Yes, it would. Are they under ANY obligation to do so? None what-so-ever. This is a business, DB, and the amount of time, energy, and money that would go into such a lengthy research process is prohibitive...especially when the gems are so far and few between.

3--The reason for an "unknown" avoiding the "bad behaviour" exhibited by people who have "made it" is simple:they are in a position to act that way because they have paid their dues and can get away with it due to the fact that they make someone a lot of money. A newcomer or someone who isn't even in the Industry trying to act in such a way will never get in because he/she hasn't done anything to earn any slack from th higher ups who can hire and fire at will. Right or wrong doesn't even enter the equation. Bendis can probably tell JQ to "F-Off" with far less risk than "Intern Z" for any number of reasons, but definitely not limited to the fact that Bendis makes Marvel a lot of money, has established his credentials as a creator at Marvel, is friends and has a working relationship with JQ, etc... This is also a simple reality that is exhibited in all walks of life. If you and your brother get into an argument and he tells you where to go, you are less likely to get into a physical confrontation with him than with some stranger on the street who does the same thing. So, again, JMS was simply trying to point out a simple preservation technique, not get into some philosophical debate about whether the reality is right or wrong.

4--Your assumption of fear belies the fact that some people may change their minds in front of a "star" due to respect, or an actual recognition that what that "star" said is correct. Mr. Myers may well have changed his mind out of fear, but he may also have honestly felt what JMS said was right. Your assumption of fear is then hard to disprove because it presumes something that is manipulative and hidden whether it is or not. That is why it is a loaded way of perceiving things. Once you presume fear is the sole motivating factor in anything, you remove all other possibilities becauser fear as a factor can not be erased in your own mind. Sometimes an honest apology is just that.

5--The main thing that makes ANY writer "special" enough to get through the door is always going to be based on a number of factors: timing, voice, topic, skill, perception. Someone will have to read your work, like it, see that it has its own distinct voice, and recognize it as something that can be exploited for purposes of publication in a money making manner. It also has to be able to stand on its own with a guiding editorial hand as opposed to an all-imposing corrective hand.

Holy Cow, so much for brief (STOP LAUGHING, KEV! I tried...:()!!! Lol. Well, I will stop here, and wait to hear from you. If you are interested, we can then tackle your other questions, or pursue the above.

Be Well...:)

If it gets through to him, you'll have no laughs at your expense coming from my direction. :)

EdwardP

03-10-2006, 09:03 PM

Wow! What a firestorm!

First off thanks to JMS for the essay. Inspiring.

I’m going to try not to go too long on this – just want to add my two cents on the subject.

I’m a writer who has written about eight screenplays (four of them suck) and with one option agreement with an established director.

It took me ten years of treating writing as a serious hobby (I did/do need to work) to finally get that agreement. Because of that option I am working on two writing projects (film) that may or may not lead to something concrete.

I have worked in the corporate world as a communicator (writing web content, press releases, etc.) and it looks like I will be returning to that reasonably well paid but sometimes mind numbing world again to pay the bills.

There are two rules that I have stumbled upon that have made my approach to the business of writing “easier:”

1. Focus on the actual writing itself.
2. Take the path of less resistance.

Number 1 is obvious – but we can all lost track of it in the pursuit of “breaking in.” I love to write and when I don’t – I at least like it. It is great to get paid to be a writer – even if (sigh) it is a mind numbing press release on earnings “co-written” by a team of lawyers.

Number 2 is hard to “see” when you are an aspiring writer. You are so eager to prove yourself, are so sure that if “they” just give you that chance to show your talent so you can have that glorious career.

Let us assume your work is “good.” A big assumption but why not make it? Here is the kicker…

….it doesn’t matter if the individual you are dealing with is NOT OPEN to it.

It is understandable that if you are in a situation where you have access to an editor or a movie producer that you feel that you have to go all out to impresses them. To somehow get them to be open about your work. But the truth is – you can’t force them to do anything.

Does it suck? Sure. Is it fair? I’m a coward – I’m not touching that debate.

But it is waste of time to try to get someone interested in something they’re not – to get nuts over an indifference that may have NOTHING to do with the quality of your work. (It may not be the right type of project for them or they’re really not interested in making the effort to really look at the work.) And it can drive you nuts trying to jump through hoops that may not exist.

But I have gained a pretty good feel for this sort of thing and I am a big fan of the soft sell. I introduce myself (i.e. cover letter), and then pitch or share material that is appropriate to their particular market (research helps). And if they want me to stay, they show it. (A good sign of this is when their actual actions match their words.) If they don’t, I thank them for their time and leave the room.

My optioned screenplay had about five spelling/grammar errors and a minor plot hole in it. A production company rep dismissed it and called me “unprofessional.” That same week the director who later on optioned my script…well I was out of earth’s orbit after he told me what he thought of my script and that he wanted to direct it.

Was the production rep an asshole looking for any reason to dismiss (not pass on) my efforts? I think so, yeah – but that may be my ego getting in the way. Does it matter if he was? Not really.

He wasn’t interested in the material. And I was professional enough not to take it too personally. (It is a cliché but you really need to build up a tough skin in this business).

I love comics. I would love to write a few. My personal experience is that comics are HARDER to break into than film. (I too have a few horror stories I could share, but that’s trivia.) Your personal mileage may vary.

Focus on the writing. Take the path of less resistance.

You are not a comic book writer or a film writer or a _____ writer.

You are a writer.

Yes, the finish line is important. But enjoy the actual writing itself, the journey.

Unless you’re really lucky – it’s going to take a while.

You might as while enjoy the trip.

Edward P

Bill Myers

03-10-2006, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by ME5
4--Your assumption of fear belies the fact that some people may change their minds in front of a "star" due to respect, or an actual recognition that what that "star" said is correct. Mr. Myers may well have changed his mind out of fear, but he may also have honestly felt what JMS said was right. Your assumption of fear is then hard to disprove because it presumes something that is manipulative and hidden whether it is or not. That is why it is a loaded way of perceiving things. Once you presume fear is the sole motivating factor in anything, you remove all other possibilities becauser fear as a factor can not be erased in your own mind. Sometimes an honest apology is just that.

To clarify, I never "changed my mind" about anything in this thread. To justify that conclusion, you'd have to cite a post where I asserted one thing, and another post where I reversed myself. You won't be able to find such an instance in this particular thread because it doesn't exist.

I also never apologized for anything. When I lamented that "I should have known better..." I was referring to the way I took DBHughes bait and defended my drive. Don't get me wrong, my drive and dedication are very defensible, but I have no need to justify myself to DBHughes. I never apologized, because I didn't do anything wrong. My response to DB, while spirited, was nevertheless within the bounds of civility, which is more than I can say for what he threw at me, JMS and anyone else who dared to disagree with him.

In that selfsame post, I then reiterated my belief that "the journey is more important than the destination." If I reiterate a belief I stated prior, that is not changing my mind. I do, in fact, change my mind when presented with evidence that casts my beliefs into doubt or an argument superior to mine. I've done it publicly in Newsarama. I'm simply pointing out, though, that that never happened in this thread.

Please don't rely on DB's characterizations of what I've written. Better by far to stick with the source material. I mean, it's all right here.

Finally, I'd like to make a suggestion. There's no need to respond further to DB. That ship has sailed. Long, long ago. Every point that needed to be made has been made, repeatedly, and hasn't done anything to quell his rage. The more we feed the trolls, the more we steer this thread away from the useful purpose of writers and wanna-be writers sharing knowledge and encouragement. I realize it's not my place to dicate what goes on here, but I think I'm within bounds to make the occasional odd suggestion.

ME5

03-10-2006, 11:00 PM

Hello.

To Bill Myers: Ahem...I must, rather shamefacedly admit that I did not read any of your posts, and was simply going through what DBHughes stated. I merely was trying to point out to him where his presumptions were "loaded" or flat out incorrect. I apologize for ascribing any statements or motives to you that were wrong or misplaced, it was not my intent.

Thank you for your reply, though...:)

To khuxford:

Thanks for going easy on me, bub...;)

Be Well...:)

Bill Myers

03-10-2006, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by ME5
Hello.

To Bill Myers: Ahem...I must, rather shamefacedly admit that I did not read any of your posts, and was simply going through what DBHughes stated. I merely was trying to point out to him where his presumptions were "loaded" or flat out incorrect. I apologize for ascribing any statements or motives to you that were wrong or misplaced, it was not my intent.

Thank you for your reply, though...:)

No problem. I've done worse in these threads. And the one detail aside, your point about DB's assumptions was correct.

My girlfriend has threatened to have me committed to rehab if I keep posting with such frequency. It's been a genuine pleasure conversing with most of you. And with that, I'm off to enjoy my vacation. Hope to "meet" most of you again when the next edition of JMS' column comes out.

Edited to add: It's actually no fair making my girlfriend out to be the "bad guy," even in jest. My lady love doesn't begrudge me my hobbies. I decided all of this posting, while fun, had derailed my writing and drawing regimen. Time to bite the bullet, suffer through "Newsarama withdrawal" and get back to work.

Kolimar

03-11-2006, 02:53 AM

WOW :D

Marvologist

03-11-2006, 05:20 PM

One thing I was confused about were a few references throughout this thread that seemed to imply that there is an open submission for the X-Men Unlimited and Spider-Man Unlimited comics. If not, I'm puzzled over where these new writers Quesada was referring to came from. I don't remember the number, but it sounded like a lot.

Marvologist

03-11-2006, 06:47 PM

I was reading JMS's column with the unconscious assumption that he was giving us advice as though we could ultimately try to break into Marvel through a direct route. Knowing they don't have open submissions, this seemed pointless and I was reading the responses in the thread wondering what everyone was so happy and inspired about. There was no practical reality to acting on what JMS was saying.

That ticked me off and that's why I said the column was irrelevant but of course it's not. It doesn't apply to the point I wanted to know about, but I wouldn't describe it as irrelevant just because it didn't address a point I wanted to read about. I just described it in that way when I felt that we were being spoken to like idiots who had no chance of getting a submission into Marvel but we were supposed to be inspired. I read it quickly and jumped at that impression. This led to me giving the wrong idea to everyone that I didn't care for or understand what has become the standard process for making it to the top. That I couldn't be dedicated or driven enought to bother with that or writing itself without being able to submit directly to Marvel. This wasn't the idea I meant to get across.

Now that I realize what my hidden assumption was, I don't think JMS was actually wasting our time with some kind of impractical false hope that would lead nowhere, because everyone except me I guess knew the context of this column was working your way through other avenues of publishing. I was reading this while still wondering what the heck happened to the submissions department and thinking somewhere in the back of my mind that this was still an ongoing issue that may or may not be overturned from its current condition. But I don't see any discussion of the original open submissions policy versus the current one anywhere, I don't just mean here. It seems that maybe everyone knows what happened and why the open submissions policy changed. It happened during a time when I wasn't immersed in comic book culture so I have no idea what happened.

I'm aware that DC faced some lawsuits from people that had made submissions and read a brief inference that this was the reason they wanted nothing to do with open submissions anymore.

I was never sure if this influenced Marvel as well but I noticed their legal document that had to be printed and signed at the time of the second Epic imprint so I thought that was the solution to the problem DC had so what's stopping them from continuing the old submissions department, unless they simply considered the financial expenditure not worthwhile.

So then I thought maybe the reason was the large number of completely unusable and amatuerish submissions that I read Glenn Herdling and Mark Gruenwald talk about. I thought that they just decided it was a waste of time and money to have an editor reading submissions that weren't turning up anything interesting so why not just let the writers who have talent prove it by being able to turn up in other areas of the industry.

This is all just my speculation so I think my mind just isn't at peace knowing the way it was in the past, and again just recently with Epic II, and wondering why it can't be that way now as it is for artists. I understand the difference in evaluation for artists and writers in terms of time, but again, I don't know for a fact that this is what's stopping Marvel, it's just speculation that I hear and since I'm the kind of person that can't leave any possible opportunities uncovered, I keep wondering about it since the case is never closed without knowing any facts.

I understand the analogies to sports or other artistic endeavours, but it's still confusing because in the comic book industry it isn't true, in principle, that you can't make an attempt at getting in to the big companies before accomplishing something somewhere else since that was the reality in the past. That's not the reality at the present, but theoritically, it is possible. That's where the sports and acting and music analogies break down. They're not an exact analogy, so it doesn't help to relieve my questions about why it can't be like that today.

If I knew for a fact that Marvel feels it isn't worth the financial investment, or they don't think it is worth the time, or some other reason I haven't even come close to imagining, or all of these things, or that they simply just don't want to bother, I'd just forget about it.

JMS, if you're still offering an open discussion for us to ask about things, if you have any knowledge about this or know anyone in the company that can inform you, it would be great if you could shed light on this. Or maybe you and everyone else here already know the relevant source of information about this on the Internet. Something I've never come across that explains what happened to open submissions and what the in-depth thinking was behind it.