HOWLING @ THE MOON: BOOKSTORE MYTHBUSTING

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Howling/Borders.jpg" width="162" height="47" align="right"><i>by Joe Gentile</i>

Thanks to all you HOWL readers out there who are tuning in every other week – or so, as the schedule’s had a bit of a rough ride over the early part of convention season.

Last time I went to the comic store and picked up -and read- various cool smaller press non-superhero books. It appears some folks liked that, good to know, so I will be doing that on a semi-regular basis.

This time let’s talk about one of the most misunderstood parts of the comic industry:

The Big Book Chain Stores! Ooh, very scary… There’s a few myths that surround such big nebulous entities that we’ll try to take a closer look at today.

Just the fact that book stores carry comic TPB’s means that comic stores don’t need to carry such products, and thereby become less of a valuable place for us readers to go. I disagree. Yes, the big stores carry some TPB’s, and I stress <i>some</i>, honestly the comic stores <i>still</i> have it all over them in a couple very valuable areas.

One: comic store employees <i>know</i> their stuff. If you are looking for a specific TPB, or want to know if a TPB ever came out, or what TPB contains “X” story, well I don’t believe that level of service is even possible at most of the big book stores.

Two: selection. All it takes is a visit to your local big-box book store, or maybe even a couple, for you to see that they really just carry a small sampling of what’s out there. Yes, they carry manga, but really, even the particular stores that are <i>targetd</i> for TPB’s sales, carry less than 1/10th of what most comic stores have.

Now here’s a big one, folks, REORDER/Special orders. When a comic shop sells out of, say, <b>The Kolchak the Night Stalker TPB</b> (okay, a plug, so sue me), most stores will just re-order this from Diamond. It’s a simple and quick decision. The same is not true at the big stores, folks, they just ain’t built for speed. Plus, they may not get the TPB back in stock…ever! Comic stores actually <i>do</i> keep stuff in stock as part of their business, you see. Plus, try to special order a TPB at one of these giant conglomerate stores, and you’ll see right away why we need our comic stores. Our comic shops can just call up Diamond, they don’t need to have a board meeting about it or anything, they can just do it. Heck they can do it while you’re standing there. Plus, if Diamond has it in stock, the comic retailer can get the TPB pretty darn quick. Standard wait time at the big boys? Try 3-4 weeks. So why bother going somewhere where they don’t know the title of the last <b>Starman</b> tpb?

<i>Customer service, selection</i>, and “<i>in-stock</i>” levels: big box book stores can’t do it like our local comic vendors folks!

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Howling/BN.jpg" width="182" height="31" align="left">OK, here’s the small press publisher pet peeve word: “<b>returns</b>”! ARRGHH!! I said it out loud - never do that!

The big box book stores operate through a system that no one else could get away with.

Yes, these stores can return any product that they want for credit. Now here’s the kicker: they can do it <i>whenever</i> they want! Think about it for a second: “whenever”. That means they can return a book to the distributor (who then deducts $ from the publisher) when they first get it…or ten years later! No strict rules, baby! This particular practice has been in place as long as there have been big book stores. Of course it’s archaic, and of course it has the potential to hurt smaller publishers in a big way. So any small press publisher who is trying to figure out what kind of a profit a book made, so he can figure out a creator’s royalty and such, well you must know that any such figure is subject to change…<i>at any time</i>. It’s next to impossible to get an accurate figure.

Or, worse yet…

Let’s say small press publisher “X” wants to publish a TPB of <b>Suck on This, All You Zombies</b> (no, NOT a plug, smart guy). OK, he gets his order numbers from the direct market in time to set his print run, cool. Let’s say for arguments sake, that the number of copies that comic shop retailers ordered was 2000 copies.

So that’s a known fact. Cool. Now the publisher must wait, and get a number of orders from the book store chains. When that number comes in, sometimes not as accurate as it could be, let’s say it’s 1000 copies.

Ok then, the publisher needs 3000 copies to settle all of the pre-orders, so he decides to set a print run of say 3500 copies. Certainly you need to print a little more for re-orders, on line sales, and convention sales, right?

Ok.

Well, one month after the book hits the stands, the publisher gets hit with a 500 copy return from the big boys, or heck, let’s say 700 copies. Well, the publisher still needs to pay the printer for that 3500 copies (yes, the publisher could have printed <i>less</i> than 3500 thinking that some would be returned. Well, what if none were? “Going back to press” ain’t cheap, and it means you need a bunch of upfront $ to make that happen, since you probably wont get a chance to get more pre-order numbers).

So now the publisher has sales of just 2300 copies to pay for his print run, if one were to look at each publication as being able to be pay for itself.

The scenario above puts the publisher in a big bind.

Let’s say that one month later, the publisher gets hit with an additional return of 100 copies. Could happen. Then, the publisher needs to make up the $ loss there with whatever book he’s got going at that moment.

It’s a never ending cycle, and it could strike you down at any time.

<i><b>The book stores are not the saviors of comics.</i></b>

Put your buying dollars where they do the most good: <b>local comic shops</b> people! These are the folks who can help you the most and care about this industry of ours.

<u><b>MOONSTONE QUICKIE-NEWS:</b></u>

1. Be on the look out for our first “wide-vision” format book: <b>The Phantom: Law of the Jungle</b> for June release! This format combines great cinematic art on every page with prose!

2. Following on the heels of our in-demand <b>Kolchak Chronicles</b> book, another volume of Kolchak prose short stories is being put together for Fall release: <b>The Kolchak Case Book</b> will feature original stories by: Mike Baron, Steve Bissette, Rachel Caine, Mark Dawidziak, Tom DeFalco, PN Elrod, John Everson, Joe Gentile, Christopher Golden, Elizabeth Massie, Tom Ostrander, Gary Phillips, Richard Dean Starr, Dave Ulanski, & Len Wein.

3. Teaser: <i>Next time, stay tuned for news about a well known comic writer and a Hollywood actress...doing a Moonstone project!</i>

So go on, just howl at the moon.
You might surprise yourself.

[BrotherI]

Good article. I'm a little afraid of more publishers like Crossgen getting crippled by massive returns and low reserves to pay them back...

I'm not even sure how well they are selling. Some sales figures would be great- that Batman year one hardcover- how did it do, exactly? The movie came out at the same time, right? So it must've done pretty well.

[Blind Assassin]

I agree that a big chain store can't compare to the selection at most shops.

Here is just one portion of our TPB/HC/OGN section.

(The shelves on the left of the pic, running down the wall are all collected editions. The pic doesn't include the seperate section of Marvel/DC collected edition, which are in another section of the store)

http://www.stonewallhouse.com/shwicaz/trades.jpg


and as far as manga, well, I don't mean to brag, but here is our manga selection (pardon the blurriness and the mess, as this pic was taken the day before our remodeling.)

http://www.stonewallhouse.com/shwicaz/manga.jpg

And yes, this is a plug. ;)

Also, to add to the manga, I think in the big bookstores, you get a lot of people reading the manga in the aisles, which is nice.....but at our store, we have people buying the manga, which is nicer. :)

[crunch-o-matic]

You forgot to mention how every big book store that racks TPBs almost always has them mangled, or all displayed spine out.


I'm not sure how to fold a 300 page TPB in half, but browsers at B&N have found a way.

[LostAndFoundFan]

Y'know what I use those big book stores for?

Browsing.

I don't mind taking an hour or two to read some recent books that've come in. But if I decide I want to buy them...it's off to the comic shop I go. Hence, I've picked up most of the Powes trades, and I'm starting to pick up Fables as well. I've read a few things that were all right, but not worth spending $20 to have on my shelf. So, B&N, Books-A-Million, and Borders, thanks for those comfy chairs, overpriced coffee, and the power to linger as long as I want so I can support smaller retailers.

-Tony!
Justifies his time by spending money on the coffee.

[batlash]

Joe's issue of returns from the book stores is a valid concern for small publishers, but a common practice for as long as I can remember (it was certainly the practice 20-odd years or more ago when I worked in a book store).

As I recall, we did have some rules like the book had to be on sale for a month, etc. before being eligible for return, but after that it was fair game. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the comics shop marketing model is the only publishing game around where the publisher sells non-returnable media to a retailer. All other publishers (of books, music, video, etc.) in all other markets are subject to having their product returned from the retailer after some period of time. That's one of the reasons publishing has always been a tough market for small publishers. Random House or Warner Brothers can easily absorb the cost of those returns, but the small publisher can't.

I'm not saying Joe doesn't have a valid complaint, just that those are the rules outside the comic shop market. It ain't pretty. It just is what it is and part of what you have to deal with if you want to be in that market.

Of course, there's always the question of who should bear the most financial responsibility: the publisher who selected the material or the retailer trying to sell what the publisher offers? Either way, someone has to take a hit.

[BuckySinister]

The returns system on books can be hard on small publishers, certainly, but as someone who works in book retail, I can also tell you that returnability is the saving grace of the small bookstore. With returnability, you can actually afford to put that small publisher's products on your shelves, where it can be sold. Without, few smaller stores would take the chance. I haven't worked for a major chain since I was in college, but I'd assume that their bean counters would feel the same way.

At any rate. Yes, the bookstore market is a very different market, and one in which funnybooks are still struggling to get a real foothold. It's not very welcoming to the small press. But at least it gets the books in front of an audience who otherwise might not even realize that comics are still being published. And that, on the whole, can't be a bad thing.

[CitC]

I have a concern with the way the big stores sell Manga - at least where I live. They have them ALL listed alphabetically in one big section. So that means that the neweast Pokemon (or whatever) can be stacked next to a book showing graphic sex or rape scenes and ulta violence (battle Royale, and many others). I think this has the potential to hurt all comics. If I was a right wing religios leader trying to get some press I would know right where to go.

I am not saying that they should not be sold, but the way in which they are presented is my issue. I addressed this with a stass person once and they were shocked (which goes back to big book store employees not necessarily knowing what the content of the comics is).
comicsintheclassroom.net/ (http://comicsintheclassroom.net/)
http://comicsintheclassroom.net/citcpics/citc_banner_600x120.jpg

[psm]

Originally posted by MattBrady

Two: selection. All it takes is a visit to your local big-box book store, or maybe even a couple, for you to see that they really just carry a small sampling of what’s out there. Yes, they carry manga, but really, even the particular stores that are <i>targetd</i> for TPB’s sales, carry less than 1/10th of what most comic stores have.


I don't know where you live but its not that way here. The two Barnes and Nobles near me have as many tpb for sale as my local comic store. Plus, the book stores have a much wider selection because of the more mainstream audience. My local comic store pretty much carries only superhero comics. I wasn't able to find tpb's like "How Loathsome", "King", "Stray Bullets", "Age of Bronze", "Box Office Poison", "Beg the Question" and a ton of other titles at my lcs. Not to mention that my local comic store doesn't carry much in the way of manga either. The big chain stores carry about 10 times (if not more) as many manga titles.

Not that I blame my local comic shop. I understand that they are in the business to make money. Their clientele is geared to the one genre and thats what they have to provide. I'm just glad I have an alternative now.

[william G]

Originally posted by crunch-o-matic
You forgot to mention how every big book store that racks TPBs almost always has them mangled, or all displayed spine out.


I'm not sure how to fold a 300 page TPB in half, but browsers at B&N have found a way.
Jesus. They'd be best in a mylar bag... :rolleyes:

[MattBrady]

Originally posted by CitC
So that means that the neweast Pokemon (or whatever) can be stacked next to a book showing graphic sex or rape scenes and ulta violence (battle Royale, and many others). I think this has the potential to hurt all comics. If I was a right wing religios leader trying to get some press I would know right where to go. and you probably wouldn't get very far, as Battle Royale is shrink wrapped, as are all the manga aimed at adult audience from major publishers, and if the wrapper is off, the blame shifts immediately from the publisher to the retailer.

MattB

[Duke Jupiter]

Originally posted by psm
I don't know where you live but its not that way here. The two Barnes and Nobles near me have as many tpb for sale as my local comic store. Plus, the book stores have a much wider selection because of the more mainstream audience. My local comic store pretty much carries only superhero comics. I wasn't able to find tpb's like "How Loathsome", "King", "Stray Bullets", "Age of Bronze", "Box Office Poison", "Beg the Question" and a ton of other titles at my lcs. Not to mention that my local comic store doesn't carry much in the way of manga either. The big chain stores carry about 10 times (if not more) as many manga titles.

Not that I blame my local comic shop. I understand that they are in the business to make money. Their clientele is geared to the one genre and thats what they have to provide. I'm just glad I have an alternative now.

Same for me. Borders and B&N in my area have been very competitive in carrying a good selection of graphic novels and manga but my LCS is more apt to get the more specialty product, and that's where they can establish their niche - can't compete with quantity but they can sure compete with specialty.

Totally agree with the service aspect, and this is an opportunity for the LCS to step up to the plate. This is the same place where a lot of indie record shops have to make a difference to stay afloat in this day and age.

- DJ

[Blind Assassin]

Originally posted by MattBrady
and you probably wouldn't get very far, as Battle Royale is shrink wrapped, as are all the manga aimed at adult audience from major publishers, and if the wrapper is off, the blame shifts immediately from the publisher to the retailer.

MattB

thanks, Matt, I was just going to bring that up.

The majority of the manga that is considered a bit more adult themed presentation normally is shipped to our comic shop already shrink-wrapped.

Granted, some of the subject matter for the non-wrapped books are a bit racy at times, and we always give these books a 'flip through' and decide on a case by case basis, we haven't had a problem like that.

We also have our manga displayed in different sections.

We have a YAOI section, then a big manga 'main' section.

We have 2 sections of manga closer to the entrance of the store to greet those that may not normally come into a comic book store.

Those are the 'all ages' manga, and another section, as well, for the 'media' manga (manga that American audiences may know from Cartoon Network or Adult Swim)

Each section is labelled appropriately, and put in the right section. The ratings system on the back of the books is handy as well, for books we are unfamiliar with.

[Fletcher]

I don't know what bookstores people have gone to that do not stock a lot of the trade paperbacks, but the Books A Million where I am from has a whole bunch and not just from the BIG 2.
For me though is all boils down to economics. I am not rich and there are a lot of titles I would like to get. That is why I love the trade paperbacks so much. I have even decided to cancel most of my titles, except for the smaller press ones, and buy only TPBs. And this is where the book store chains come in. I get a much bigger discount going to them, or even buying from Amazon, than I do at the one comic book store in town. I know that stings to a lot of people but it is easier on my wallet getting a 25-30% discount than 10% or none at all.
The non returnable issue really blows but it is the beast that the comic book world has decided to use. Thats just one of the many problems that I have seen in this industry. Everything it does is @ss backwards.
If I had a trade paperback I would do my darndest to get it into a big chain store. A heck of a lot more people are going to see it than they would in a comic book store. I would want to get my work into as many hands as I possible could, But thats just my humble opinion.

[Andy E. Nystrom]

I'm just playing devil's advocate here (I do most of my tpb shopping at comic shops myself), but taking the article to its logical conclusion, doesn't the returnability aspect mean that shopping at book stores can actually benefit the smaller publisher? That way there's one less copy of the tpb that will be returned.

Again, I'll still buy my tpbs at the comic shop due to loyalty and discount in that order. I think the reality lies somewhere in between: the comic shops best serves the hardcore comic fans, while the book stores serve the casual reader who might not conisder stepping into something as specialized as a comic shop, or might not be aware that one's been operating in their town for a decade.

A final point: I work part-time at a used book store that used to sell more new books than they do now. They cut back after a Chapter's (Canadian book store conglomerate) opened up. But what ended up happening is that our city's Chapter's will sometimes direct people to our store for stuff they don't have and won't be able to get. Perhaps some other big book stores can have or already have a similar relationship with the comic shops?

--Andy E. Nystrom

[Swift]

News flash: If an issue sells out (Like Wonder Woman 219, or JSA Classified #1) Go to your local book stores and hunt for a copy.

Most likely they'll have one.

Now, everything depends on your timing... If you get there 3 weeks later, then you're going to see nothing but ridiculously bent up copies. If you get there before Friday for hot issues that sell out in a day, then you might get lucky.

[KingMattress]

Eh, this kinda seemed redundant. No comic fans really see book stores as THE place to go. I still approve of them, because people who don't go to comic shops can casually pick up things like Y, V for Vendetta, and other good stuff that wouldn't be sold to them otherwise.

[render man]

As a small publisher I realize the returnable deal with bookstores, but I know that I can at least get my book in the bookstores and available to people . Even if they decide to return it 3 months later, at least I know it was in the stores. Where as in the comic book store market, there is about a one in 10,000 chance (If not more especially if its not superheroes) that they will order my small publisher book. And this is because of the non-returnability option. But that's what you have to look at as a small publisher also, it can be a win-win situation or a lose-lose situation with bookstores.

[MHELLER1974]

First off, love Moonstone, waiting so long for Buckaroo Banzai I can't take it
any more.

That beig said, while I understand your points, I disagree, and I truly believe that
the big box bookseller IS a threat the local comic shop.
1) They have exclusives, like that giant Ultimate Spider-Man hardcover, that you can only buy at Barnes and Nobles. They have exclusive hardcovers of Trigun
and Hellsing, not available at a comic shop near you, etc etc.
2)They now have famous authors writing comics, who has more of a chance
getting a Steven King signing when the Dark Tower comic comes out,
your local comic shop, or your local big box book store with a bottomless pit of
cash to pay him to sign all the Dark Tower comics AND books?
3) One stop shopping. People like to go to one place, and get everything.
This is why Barnes and Noble and Borders get away with seling DVDS
that go for 19.99 at Best Buy, but go for 27.99 there. People don't like
to make the effort, we are an instant gratification society. A parent is
more likely to make their DVD, Comic, and book/magazine purchases all
at once, rather than to go to the bookstore for an hour, and than sit
in a comic shop with their kid afterwards. If I am an adult, and I go to
Barnes and Noble to grab a coffee and a magazine, and they happen to
have the latest issue of infinite crisis right there, what is my incentive to
get into the car, and make an extra trip to buy it at a comic store?
4) Don't have the TPB you are looking for, go right onto a computer at the
store, and have it delivered to your house. You don't have to worry about
Diamond cut off dates, or availability issues, if it's available in the warehouse,
it's going to be on your doorstep in a week. I don't think your local comics
shop is going to get you a book faster than Amazon.
5) You don't have to subscribe, or decide on the fly 2 months ahead of time.
Not sure if you want to read that book, when it comes out in 2 months,
go to your local book store, where no one will stop you from picking up a
copy of the comic, sit down at a table in the cafe, and read it instead.
I hate to say it, but the book store promotes a try it before you buy it
mentality, and people do it. And if you think that maybe you'd rather wait
until the trade comes out, than you wait until the TPB comes out.
Local comics shop give you a discount for subscribing? Well, your local
big box store has a discount club, you buy the card, they knock off
money on your purchases and give you points towards free stuff, it's
a wash.

I think that the comics shop is definitely not helped by these big box stores, but traditionalists such as myself will still never buy from them, simply because the comic store itself is a tradition. I don't want to imagine a comics industry without the comic store. I'm not about to screw over my local shop and give my business to a corporation. So long as there are people like me, the comic
shop will be around, but I don't think it's safe to say it's a non issue.

[Nat Gertler]

While I agree with Joe that comic book fans should shop at their local comics shop, that it provides a more stable income for the publisher (and the retailer is more likely to notice the track record of what is selling, not only in terms of the individual book but also the publisher and the creative team), I do think he overstates his case in some regards.

The publisher who prints 3500 for a 3000 order and then sees 700 returns from bookstores is not stuck with sales of just 2300 to pay for the print run. He has sales in place of 2300 (minus the charge for processing the 700 returns, and yes, that does hurt - you have to give back all the money that was spent and more!) , plus he has 1200 copies left to sell. If this is something that the bookstores will take as a book, then it's something that the comic book stores are likely to restock... and even with the big bookstore return, bookstores may yet be ordering more.

(Also the way you depict special-ordering through a major bookstore doesn't match any experience I've had... and the online bookstores which are a notable part of the market make the process basically invisible.)

However, I've yet to see a bookstore match the selection and the great browsing opportunities offered by a good local comic book store. There's so much more to discover there. And you don't have to trip over the manga readers splayed out in the aisle.

[jasinmartin]

It's true that returnability is the flip-side to comic product serving the bookstore market, and it's perhaps not considered enough with all of the speculation and analysis of the growing mainstream bookchain market.

Recently there was a big to-do on message boards about TokyoPop's contracts with it's OEL creators, but I don't think there was much focus on the differences of bookstore publishing perhaps driving that (maybe there was). Comic Book creators signing deals with emerging graphic novel imprints from publishing houses, and evolving manga companies less creator-friendly contracts are likely a way of getting around the very different financial logistics of the bookstores. Perhaps if/when Marvel and DC, or other traditional comic companies, focus more completely on that market, they'll also adopt different payment structures with their creators. Which brings home some of your point I think, so much energy being given to this potential mainstream market, may come at quite a price either to creators and/or publishers (let alone LCS retailers), and can it work for smaller publishers, or just the larger ones?

Someone mentioned used bookstores, but I'm wondering, do comic shops, or any retailers have a way to take advantage of these returns? A channel for discounting and moving this overstock? I assume publishers generally just try and sell the product back into whatever existing channels, chain bookstores, or comic shops (maybe via discount if need be), but it would be interesting to know if there's some other option/channel/network that exists, or could arise to service this likely growing area (in traditional publishing, is that where used bookstores come in? or libraries?)? Maybe an online discount retailer?

Food for thought...

[Violent Gorilla]

Eh, I eventually had to stop frequenting my local shop for TPB purchases because they didn't have anything. They had a crappy shelf devoted to them with little in the way of selection, but that was it.

Between Books-A-Million and Barnes and Noble however, I was able to get tons of stuff, and like others have said, not just from the big two. I picked up some stuff from Fantagraphics that my local shop would have NEVER carried in a million years at B&N.

The thing is, the bigger chain stores have more space and, relatively speaking anyway, TPB's take up a lot more space than monthlies. Smaller comic stores that get their bread and butter from monthly purchases can't afford to devote a huge amount of space to TPB's. As such, I've had far better luck picking up trades and manga collections at the bigger stores than I have at smaller shops.

[CitC]

and if the wrapper is off, the blame shifts immediately from the publisher to the retailer.

I'm sorry, I thought it wass clear that I was putting the blame on the bookstore. That is my concern. The big bookstore (Chapters) near me only has Negima wrapped,but only some of them. They are all in the same section with no consideration for age apropriateness. I think this can become a problem.
comicsintheclassroom.net/ (http://comicsintheclassroom.net/)
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[MattBrady]

Originally posted by CitC
I'm sorry, I thought it wass clear that I was putting the blame on the bookstore. That is my concern. The big bookstore (Chapters) near me only has Negima wrapped,but only some of them. They are all in the same section with no consideration for age apropriateness. I think this can become a problem. Then why would it be bad for comics as a whole as you said earlier ("I think this has the potential to hurt all comics.")?

MattB

[ATKokmen]

Originally posted by jasinmartin
Someone mentioned used bookstores, but I'm wondering, do comic shops, or any retailers have a way to take advantage of these returns? A channel for discounting and moving this overstock? I assume publishers generally just try and sell the product back into whatever existing channels, chain bookstores, or comic shops (maybe via discount if need be), but it would be interesting to know if there's some other option/channel/network that exists, or could arise to service this likely growing area (in traditional publishing, is that where used bookstores come in? or libraries?)? Maybe an online discount retailer?

In traditional publishing, when publishers have overstock inventory, they'll often attempt to liquidate that inventory by offering to usual customers at an even deeper discount, or by selling it into the remainder market. (Similarly, there are remainder/liquidation dealers that specialize in so-called "hurt" books: slightly damaged stock that naturally accumulates in a warehouse.)

The reality is that the remainder market for graphic novels (especially paperback graphic novels) isn't particularly strong. If there were more major comics retailers who would purchase remaindered graphic novels, I'm sure a remainder dealer would arise to service them. On the other hand, Diamond already runs occasional liquidation sales to clean up their own overstock, so it's not as if comics retailers have no exposure to comics remainders now.

Is there an opportunity for a remainder dealer who specializes in comics/graphic novels? I dunno. Maybe. There's certainly no dearth of product; I just don't know if there's a significant remainder market for such stuff...

[MacGuffin]

Originally posted by MHELLER1974

4) Don't have the TPB you are looking for, go right onto a computer at the store, and have it delivered to your house. You don't have to worry about Diamond cut off dates, or availability issues, if it's available in the warehouse, it's going to be on your doorstep in a week. I don't think your local comics shop is going to get you a book faster than Amazon.


Some interesting points, but not exactly accurate on this one. First, availability. If it's available to Amazon, it's available to any decent LCS. We get about a third of our stock from the same places that Amazon does plus a couple more. The only time they have something that we don't is when they have a significant amount sitting in a warehouse between printings (which is pretty rare). Next, "doorstep in a week." Well, we can have it on your doorstep in exactly the same amout of time as Amazon if you'd like to pay for shipping, or better yet we can have it in store without shipping in anywhere between 2-7 business days depending on the day you request it.

Originally posted by MHELLER1974

5) You don't have to subscribe, or decide on the fly 2 months ahead of time. Not sure if you want to read that book, when it comes out in 2 months, go to your local book store, where no one will stop you from picking up a copy of the comic, sit down at a table in the cafe, and read it instead. I hate to say it, but the book store promotes a try it before you buy it mentality, and people do it. And if you think that maybe you'd rather wait until the trade comes out, than you wait until the TPB comes out.


Again, you mileage may vary depending on the quality of LCS in your area but we happen to agree that its ridiculous to expect someone to commit to a title sight unseen two months ahead of time (unless they want to of course). Want to sample it? Grab a coffee from the Starbucks next door (there's one at every corner, right?) have a seat on our couch and enjoy. Then either buy it or try the next title on the shelf, one that the big box store may not have.

Originally posted by MHELLER1974

I think that the comics shop is definitely not helped by these big box stores, but traditionalists such as myself will still never buy from them, simply because the comic store itself is a tradition. I don't want to imagine a comics industry without the comic store. I'm not about to screw over my local shop and give my business to a corporation. So long as there are people like me, the comic
shop will be around, but I don't think it's safe to say it's a non issue.

We appreciate your support, trust me, but I think this whole argument, framed as "us vs. them" is a huge part of the problem. Bookstores are helping well run direct market stores by exposing some material to a larger number of people and making sequential art much more of a second nature reading experience for people who think they would never set foot in a comic book store. Now its my job to let those people know that we're here and we've got everything they have (minus the occasional exclusive) plus a whole lot more. Again, though, your mileage may vary (I know Not from Around's does)

[CitC]

Then why would it be bad for comics as a whole as you said earlier ("I think this has the potential to hurt all comics.")?

Man, my bad day must be spilling into my postings. I am not making myself clear at all today (do I ever? is the question I am asking myself :) ).

I think it is a problem when unwrapped books that depict graphic rape scenes and ultra violence are at floor level next to books for younger kids. In my local big book store there is nothing to separate books like Battle Royale book from the Pokemon type books. Almost none of the books are shrink wrapped and last Xmas there was a book where a girl gets raped displayed at the entrance of the store along with "How to Draw" books aimed for everyone-young and old. It probably wasn't there by accident either since there were 2 others with it.

I am not saying it should be censored, but a little more thought needs to go into how they are displayed in the book stores. Comic stores are likely going to know better.

I think this has the possibility to hurt comics because they are a hard sell to a lot of people already. Things seem to be improving in some cases, and seeing manga and trades in book stores is an indication of that, but I think that an irate parent or politician looking for a platform could make some noise with this if they wanted to. I could be wrong, but it is what I have been thinking long before I got into this "all ages" thing. Is my local big book store the only one with the manga unwrapped?

comicsintheclassroom.net/ (http://comicsintheclassroom.net/)

http://comicsintheclassroom.net/citcpics/citc_banner_600x120.jpg

[Not From Around]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CitC
[B]
I think this has the possibility to hurt comics because they are a hard sell to a lot of people already. Things seem to be improving in some cases, and seeing manga and trades in book stores is an indication of that, but I think that an irate parent or politician looking for a platform could make some noise with this if they wanted to. I could be wrong, but it is what I have been thinking long before I got into this "all ages" thing. Is my local big book store the only one with the manga unwrapped?

QUOTE]

I understand the concern. I vet the comics I stock at the library here very carefully to avoid trouble. The comics I stock HAVE to be appropriate for younger readers. Since comics haven't been readily available in this area for some years now, the idea of "adult" or "mature" comics really doesn't exist here.

I'm actually 140 miles from the nearest full-fledged comics store, by the way--the 90-mile figure is for a gaming store that also carries comics. The nearest place to buy comics at all is a Books-A-Million store fifty miles from here. It's in a fair-sized city with no LCS! With DM stores so thin on the ground, the bookstores are vital for giving the public at least a minimal level of awareness and availability of comics in large parts of the country.

I don't recall seeing wrapped manga in bookstores, but I don't know that I've ever noticed the more hardcore ones in those stores either. I don't really pay that much attention to manga in bookstores, except to notice that in many places it has nearly squeezed out the American comics. If CitC's store is indeed shelving unwrapped "adult" manga right alongside kiddie manga, then they are certainly asking for trouble. I wouldn't blame parents and local leaders in the very least for getting irate about this! And bad experiences with shocking comics do indeed have the potential to convince some parents that today's comics can't be trusted in general.

That a general book retailer is apparently clueless enough not to realize that comics differ greatly from each other and should be shelved for different readerships is a dramatic demonstration of how general book chains can't replace the LCS. But given that many people don't live near or are unaware of DM stores, they still serve a vital function in introducing some segments of the public to comics.

[Not From Around]

Originally posted by jasinmartin
Someone mentioned used bookstores, but I'm wondering, do comic shops, or any retailers have a way to take advantage of these returns? A channel for discounting and moving this overstock? I assume publishers generally just try and sell the product back into whatever existing channels, chain bookstores, or comic shops (maybe via discount if need be), but it would be interesting to know if there's some other option/channel/network that exists, or could arise to service this likely growing area (in traditional publishing, is that where used bookstores come in? or libraries?)? Maybe an online discount retailer?

Food for thought...

I've seen a few trades in used bookstores. As the overall number grows, we'll probably see more of them. I also saw a lot of CrossGen material dumped at fire-sale prices in "Half-Price Books," a store that specializes in remaindered books. We may see more remainders showing up at specialized stores like this.

Libraries don't buy a lot of used books. Actually, we SELL a lot of them!

Jasin, I know you're a publisher. When you publish your trades, it would be a good idea if possible to make your books available through mainstream book jobbers like Ingram and Baker & Taylor. Bookstores and libraries order most of their items through them. I know that libraries sometimes have special discount arrangements with certain wholesalers and prefer to deal with them. I order most of our comics through our normal supplier, Baker & Taylor. Just yesterday I preordered Tokyopop's new "Mail Order Ninja" title through them.

[The Nun]

Originally posted by BrotherI
Some sales figures would be great- that Batman year one hardcover- how did it do, exactly? The movie came out at the same time, right? So it must've done pretty well.

http://www.icv2.com/index.html

[The Nun]

Originally posted by psm
I don't know where you live but its not that way here. The two Barnes and Nobles near me have as many tpb for sale as my local comic store. Plus, the book stores have a much wider selection because of the more mainstream audience. My local comic store pretty much carries only superhero comics. I wasn't able to find tpb's like "How Loathsome", "King", "Stray Bullets", "Age of Bronze", "Box Office Poison", "Beg the Question" and a ton of other titles at my lcs. Not to mention that my local comic store doesn't carry much in the way of manga either. The big chain stores carry about 10 times (if not more) as many manga titles.

Not that I blame my local comic shop. I understand that they are in the business to make money. Their clientele is geared to the one genre and thats what they have to provide. I'm just glad I have an alternative now.

My local shop has 1/10th the stock and variety as my local Barnes and Noble...but I just Amazon regadless, for the extra discount.

[MacGuffin]

Originally posted by psm
I don't know where you live but its not that way here. The two Barnes and Nobles near me have as many tpb for sale as my local comic store. Plus, the book stores have a much wider selection because of the more mainstream audience. My local comic store pretty much carries only superhero comics. I wasn't able to find tpb's like "How Loathsome", "King", "Stray Bullets", "Age of Bronze", "Box Office Poison", "Beg the Question" and a ton of other titles at my lcs. Not to mention that my local comic store doesn't carry much in the way of manga either. The big chain stores carry about 10 times (if not more) as many manga titles.

Not that I blame my local comic shop. I understand that they are in the business to make money. Their clientele is geared to the one genre and thats what they have to provide. I'm just glad I have an alternative now.

Originally posted by The Nun
My local shop has 1/10th the stock and variety as my local Barnes and Noble...but I just Amazon regadless, for the extra discount.
This is where/why we need more, better direct market shops.

[Nat Gertler]

Originally posted by ATKokmen
Is there an opportunity for a remainder dealer who specializes in comics/graphic novels? I dunno. Maybe. There's certainly no dearth of product; I just don't know if there's a significant remainder market for such stuff... The success which B&N has apparently had in the direct-to-discount exclusives (at least, the success I presume they've had seeing how they have continued doing it) suggests to me that there is a market there. I suspect bookstores in general may be a bit shy about GNs in the remaindered pile because for years they were getting remainders of the occasional big publisher stab at longform comics, which tended to be rather dire. However, I would suspect that much of the material that's available for remaindering is less than optimal for the market - middle volumes of things that are clearly serials, for example.

(There may also be a good market in the DM for grab-bag style attempts - $80 of Marvel superhero squarebounds for $12, things like that.)

Folks who want to see comics leftovers on sale should check out the Bud Plant catalogue.

[ATKokmen]

Originally posted by BrotherI
Some sales figures would be great- that Batman year one hardcover- how did it do, exactly? The movie came out at the same time, right? So it must've done pretty well.

Originally posted by The Nun
http://www.icv2.com/index.html

Or, for more specific detail to the BATMAN: YEAR ONE deluxe hardcover originally mentioned, there's this ICv2 page (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/7258.html) showing 1526 units sold in June 2005 and this one (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/7376.html) showing 1957 units sold in July 2005.

As always, though, one must note that these ICv2 figures do not include anything from the traditional bookstore market; they're just about the comic book direct sales market.

Originally posted by Nat Gertler
The success which B&N has apparently had in the direct-to-discount exclusives (at least, the success I presume they've had seeing how they have continued doing it) suggests to me that there is a market there.

Yeah, but on the other hand, I note that B&N hasn't announced a new B&N-exclusive graphic novel project for a while, so I'm guessing they may have cooled on the category somewhat (at least for their propreitary publishing line.)

Originally posted by Nat Gertler
However, I would suspect that much of the material that's available for remaindering is less than optimal for the market - middle volumes of things that are clearly serials, for example.

You are probably right. But I think part of it is also that many remainder dealers perceive themselves as not having customers for graphic novel product. That may or may not be a true perception, but since it took a while for, well, bookstores to believe they had customers for graphic novels, this may just be a natural extension of that learning process.

Originally posted by Nat Gertler
Folks who want to see comics leftovers on sale should check out the Bud Plant catalogue.

Absolutely. Bud Plant's got some of the best remainders in the business. Except that he doesn't do much in the manga category, which, I admit, is a category I'm given to pay attention to nowadays ;)

[Michael Bunge]

Originally posted by MattBrady
Then why would it be bad for comics as a whole as you said earlier ("I think this has the potential to hurt all comics.")?

MattB


When people get outraged about something, they don't tend to pay attention to nuances or distinctions. A parent who finds their kid paging through a tentacle-rape book won't say to themselves "Oh, I must remember this isn't the publishers fault!"

What do you think would have been the reaction if someone had gone to a TimeWarner stockholders meeting, thrown up a certain couple of pages of IDENTITY CRISIS and asked "Why is this company raping the Super Friends?"

Mike

[hogfat]

Originally posted by MacGuffin
Next, "doorstep in a week." Well, we can have it on your doorstep in exactly the same amout of time as Amazon if you'd like to pay for shipping, or better yet we can have it in store without shipping in anywhere between 2-7 business days depending on the day you request it.
And there's the difference with cost/benefit: Amazon (or Barnes and Noble) can get items to the reader's door cheaper, without explicit shipping charges; in the same amount of time if not markedly faster.

Originally posted by ATKokmen
Or, for more specific detail to the BATMAN: YEAR ONE deluxe hardcover originally mentioned, there's this ICv2 page (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/7258.html) showing 1526 units sold in June 2005 and this one (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/7376.html) showing 1957 units sold in July 2005.

As always, though, one must note that these ICv2 figures do not include anything from the traditional bookstore market; they're just about the comic book direct sales market.

Brian Hibbs provided Bookscan's week 52 numbers in Tilting at Windmills (http://www.newsarama.com/Tilting2_0/Tilting25.htm). The Year One hardcover moved more than 15 000 copies through bookstores in 2005, about twice the sales of 2004's best reported Batman book (Hush v1 with 8 101). Hush v2, at 19 883, sold the most of any batbook on the 2005 list.

[Nat Gertler]

Originally posted by ATKokmen
Yeah, but on the other hand, I note that B&N hasn't announced a new B&N-exclusive graphic novel project for a while I thought I saw a new one when I was last in there, but it may have been an earlier one I'd not previously detected.
a category I'm given to pay attention to nowadaysShouldn't that be, "a category I'm given pay to attend to"?:)

[MacGuffin]

Originally posted by hogfat
And there's the difference with cost/benefit: Amazon (or Barnes and Noble) can get items to the reader's door cheaper, without explicit shipping charges; in the same amount of time if not markedly faster.


Well, no, not markedly faster, at least not without explicit shipping charges. The product is shipping from essentially the same place (usually Memphis) either way.

As for the cheaper, that's their specialty and there's no way that any brick and mortar store is going to beat Amazon on price, whether it's B&N, Borders or MacGuffin. You can't sit down and sample the book at Amazon, though (except those cases where a preview as been scanned in and even that is limited). We aren't even going to begin trying to compete with Amazon, but the Barnes & Noble down the block? Well, yeah we can offer almost everything they do, plus more variety.

[bsprd]

Not only do I love the column, but the discussions that come afterwards.

While the large bookstore chains do work with the "wonderful" returns policy, it is possible to make certain that the returns policy does NOT hurt you.

Case in point: Barnes and Noble, if you're dealing directly with them. You can set a return percentage. Or is it Ingrim that I'm thinking of? Not sure right now, 72 hours of straight strategy thinking with the entire board of BSPRD has taken my brain hostage.

I know that I can go, fill out the forms I need to, and set the returns policies that my company will implement, and now that I think of it, it is Ingrim.

But one thing that many people haven't discussed is the ISSN, ISBN, and SAN's that must be purchased in order to even THINK about supplying to these bookstore chains, or be put up on B&N.COM. All of these items MUST be taken into consideration, and prices must be adjusted.

*heads over to ISBN.ORG*

For 10 ISBN's it'll cost you, regular processing, $240.00.

$24.00 per ISBN.

Hmmm. A bit expensive? Not prohibitively so since you can place that on pretty much ANY book you want to. Plus, it's that ISBN that will allow you to walk the road.

Now some bookstore chains and such need a SAN. Standard Address Number. That's $75.00 PER business address.

So now we're up to $315.

That's BEFORE you get the bar codes. Some bar code's are cheaper than others, depending on whether you sink the money for the software to generate them, or use a free resource to generate it.

Hmmm. ISBN.ORG will give you the bar codes as well!

....For $23.00 per barcode. THat's $230 more for the 10 ISBN's you just purchased. We're up to $555, and we're not even PRINTING YET!

It ads up.

But yet, it's also necessary in this industry.

And it's fun, if you're as warped as I am.

[innocentboy]

interesting read.
some nice information there.

thanks for this article.

[hogfat]

Originally posted by MacGuffin
Well, no, not markedly faster, at least not without explicit shipping charges. The product is shipping from essentially the same place (usually Memphis) either way.
Well, if you're referring to drop shipping from the likes of Diamond, then Amazon and Barnes and Noble would likely be slower delivery methods. I'm not too sure about B&N, but I don't believe Amazon actually drop ships books; everything comes either directly from Amazon or a fulfillment house, adding an extra step in delivery.

If the book is only locally unavailable, however, Barnes and Noble (or Amazon) may have a copy available in a warehouse for immediate delivery. Whether an item that can't be found at a comic shop is likely to be in stock at a bookstore's warehouse is up for debate, I suppose.

As for the cheaper, that's their specialty and there's no way that any brick and mortar store is going to beat Amazon on price, whether it's B&N, Borders or MacGuffin.
Perhaps if one could work the numbers and volume properly . . . I'm sure the direct market's discounts are much greater than even Amazon receives.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by MHELLER1974
That beig said, while I understand your points, I disagree, and I truly believe that
the big box bookseller IS a threat the local comic shop.
1) They have exclusives, like that giant Ultimate Spider-Man hardcover, that you can only buy at Barnes and Nobles. They have exclusive hardcovers of Trigun
and Hellsing, not available at a comic shop near you, etc etc.
2)They now have famous authors writing comics, who has more of a chance
getting a Steven King signing when the Dark Tower comic comes out,
your local comic shop, or your local big box book store with a bottomless pit of
cash to pay him to sign all the Dark Tower comics AND books?
3) One stop shopping. People like to go to one place, and get everything.
This is why Barnes and Noble and Borders get away with seling DVDS
that go for 19.99 at Best Buy, but go for 27.99 there. People don't like
to make the effort, we are an instant gratification society. A parent is
more likely to make their DVD, Comic, and book/magazine purchases all
at once, rather than to go to the bookstore for an hour, and than sit
in a comic shop with their kid afterwards. If I am an adult, and I go to
Barnes and Noble to grab a coffee and a magazine, and they happen to
have the latest issue of infinite crisis right there, what is my incentive to
get into the car, and make an extra trip to buy it at a comic store?
4) Don't have the TPB you are looking for, go right onto a computer at the
store, and have it delivered to your house. You don't have to worry about
Diamond cut off dates, or availability issues, if it's available in the warehouse,
it's going to be on your doorstep in a week. I don't think your local comics
shop is going to get you a book faster than Amazon.
5) You don't have to subscribe, or decide on the fly 2 months ahead of time.
Not sure if you want to read that book, when it comes out in 2 months,
go to your local book store, where no one will stop you from picking up a
copy of the comic, sit down at a table in the cafe, and read it instead.
I hate to say it, but the book store promotes a try it before you buy it
mentality, and people do it. And if you think that maybe you'd rather wait
until the trade comes out, than you wait until the TPB comes out.
Local comics shop give you a discount for subscribing? Well, your local
big box store has a discount club, you buy the card, they knock off
money on your purchases and give you points towards free stuff, it's
a wash.

I think that the comics shop is definitely not helped by these big box stores, but traditionalists such as myself will still never buy from them, simply because the comic store itself is a tradition. I don't want to imagine a comics industry without the comic store. I'm not about to screw over my local shop and give my business to a corporation. So long as there are people like me, the comic
shop will be around, but I don't think it's safe to say it's a non issue.


I think alot of people have made some very valid points. I tend to agree most with these points though. It pretty much hits up everything that you could think of. Big Book stores should be a concern for the guy or gal that own the local comic book store. Its not just trade paperbacks but everything else a big chain store has going for it.
For example some one walks into a Books A Million and sees a TPB may pick it up without realizing that it comes out every month.Yes there are people out there that do not know this. Heck, there are people out there that do not know how to read a comic. As hard as it is to for us readers to fathom that it is true.Anyhoo that customer sees that BAM sells comics. BAM stole a customer from a comic book store in that town.
I do not think that the big book store chains will spell the doom for the local comic book store. If anything it is going to make the local comic book store owner work harder. The big book store has a lot going for them, one thing is the bigger discount you will get from a B&N or a Borders. I have said here( in another post ) that I get TPBs from a Books a Million because I get a mucher bigger discount. But the big store also has an advertising budget and that helps alot. I can not think of one comic book store that has ever been in the city where I live do any advertising. I live in a fairly big college town ripe for a comic book store. But no one does any advertising. They go out of buisness. I can only think of one store that is still around and who knows for how much longer.
Plus the other thing that I think that the big chain store has going for it is that it not as intimidating. You walk into a coimc book store and everything hits you at once whether it is the wall of books or statues or whatever. Your a new reader, you step into the door and you are greeted with that. It can be intimidating. It may not be intimidating for me or you. Heck when I walk into a comic book store and I see the busts and statues I think to myself "Why can't I be a bajillionare and buy everything that I like", but to the unintiated it can be intimidating. In a book store you can take your time. You can flip through a book, put it back and then grab another. Now I am not saying that a comic book store should change its set up ( well I am but that is another post) I am just trying to look at things from a different perspective.
One last thing I thought I would mention is that just because you do not work at a comic book store does not mean you do not know anything about comics. Not every comic fan can get a job at a comic store. There are comic book readers that work at the big chains. I know ,I am a comic reader and when I was going to college I worked at a book store.

[CitC]

Update:

I don't imagine that many are still checking this but I went to my local Big Book Store and they still have almost nothing wraped, but there is no more ultra violent stuff. The staff member I talked to knew about it not all being for kids, but she did not know if the casiers knew about the rating systems and not selling sex stuff to 10 yr olds.

Basically, some of what I was worried about has already been addressed at the store, but I think they could have shrink wraped more instead of getting rid of it altogether.

comicsintheclassroom.net/ (http://comicsintheclassroom.net/)

http://comicsintheclassroom.net/citcpics/citc_banner_600x120.jpg

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by CitC
Update:

I don't imagine that many are still checking this but I went to my local Big Book Store and they still have almost nothing wraped, but there is no more ultra violent stuff. The staff member I talked to knew about it not all being for kids, but she did not know if the casiers knew about the rating systems and not selling sex stuff to 10 yr olds.

Basically, some of what I was worried about has already been addressed at the store, but I think they could have shrink wraped more instead of getting rid of it altogether.

comicsintheclassroom.net/ (http://comicsintheclassroom.net/)

http://comicsintheclassroom.net/citcpics/citc_banner_600x120.jpg

I have been reading your posts and I think that the responsibilty should fall on both parties, the publisher and the retailer. The publisher should have some sort of parental advisory on their books and the store should enforce it. I am not a fan of censorship in any form but the parental sticker on the book can actually stop any problems before they. You don't need another reason for folks to start slamming the comic industry.

[Blind Assassin]

Originally posted by Fletcher
I have been reading your posts and I think that the responsibilty should fall on both parties, the publisher and the retailer. The publisher should have some sort of parental advisory on their books and the store should enforce it. I am not a fan of censorship in any form but the parental sticker on the book can actually stop any problems before they. You don't need another reason for folks to start slamming the comic industry.



As stated before, all the manga books that are considered inappropriate arrive shrink-wrapped.

They also ALL have a ratings system, and most of the shrink-wrapped books DO have a parental advisory.

It seems to me the staff at the bookstore being discussed chose to lump all the books together, with no regard to the rating clearly marked on each book, as well as unwrapping the shrink-wrapped books.

No need to blame the publisher here at all, they have done everything in their power to make sure these books with more mature themes/images don't fall into the hands of kids looking for Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z.

If the staff of a bookstore chooses to ignore these safeguards, then the fault/blame rests entirely on them.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by Blind Assassin
As stated before, all the manga books that are considered inappropriate arrive shrink-wrapped.

They also ALL have a ratings system, and most of the shrink-wrapped books DO have a parental advisory.

It seems to me the staff at the bookstore being discussed chose to lump all the books together, with no regard to the rating clearly marked on each book, as well as unwrapping the shrink-wrapped books.

No need to blame the publisher here at all, they have done everything in their power to make sure these books with more mature themes/images don't fall into the hands of kids looking for Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z.

If the staff of a bookstore chooses to ignore these safeguards, then the fault/blame rests entirely on them.


Thats the same argument that music companies used way back in the day but it didn't keep countless law suits against them when minors were getting copies of Boundy Count's Cop Killer.
It is both parties responsibilty to keep material deemed Mature or with a Parental Advisory sitcker out of the hands of minors.

[Nat Gertler]

Originally posted by Fletcher
Thats the same argument that music companies used way back in the day but it didn't keep countless law suits against them when minors were getting copies of Boundy Count's Cop Killer.Can you cite a source on those lawsuits?

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by Nat Gertler
Can you cite a source on those lawsuits?


If you googled it you would probably get more hits that you can shake a stick at. I was working in a record store when all the hub bub started over it, so I still remember ( a little its been years). I know the LA police department got into the mix with it as well as parent groups. But it wasn't just Boudy Count it was a lot of rappers. If you are old enough to remember it was what really pushed the record labels to put the parental advisory stickers on the CDs. It was then up to the retailer to enforce the sticker but the law suits were still being handed out like candy at Halloween. Now a days there are kids that have only ever seen CDs with the sticker.
Video Games went through the same thing. It wasn't until there was a PS in every household that parents saw heads being blown up. So the Video Game Industry implemented there own rating system and most retailers follow it. I go into Wallmart and they have signs posted saying they card anyone buying M rated games and above.
Its not that I even read Manga titles. I don't, but the public doesn't or can't tell the difference between an American comic and a Manga only because as a whole they are not in the know like comic book readers. Little Johnny comes home from the Book Store with La Blue Girl or something and his folks think all comics are like that. Its bad for comics period.

[Nat Gertler]

Originally posted by Fletcher
If you googled it you would probably get more hits that you can shake a stick at.Nope. Googling lawsuit "cop killer" "Body Count" only brings up about 200 results, and looking at the first dozen or so of them, most of which refer to the album in some way, none of them refer to any actual lawsuits against this work, much less one specifically against the record company specifically sale to a minor. The Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cop_Killer_controversy) on the controversy makes no mention of any lawsuits.

Yes, there was a lot of noise about this song, but as for the lawsuits being "countless"... well, I suspect they weren't in the way that you seem to mean.

[CitC]

No need to blame the publisher here at all \

I've read all of these posts as they have come out and, without re-reading them all, I can't remember anyone blaming a publisher. That's not what the article was about, and that's not what's been discussed.

Edit: That may have come accross more snotty than I intended, but I'm not sure how the publisher could be seen at fault. It is the stores that choose to purchase and display the books. As long as the content isn't illegal, they should have no blame, especially with the ratings they have on every issue.

Also, the store employee I talked to claimed the Manga stuff doesn't come to the store wrapped. She could be mistaken though.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by Nat Gertler
Nope. Googling lawsuit "cop killer" "Body Count" only brings up about 200 results, and looking at the first dozen or so of them, most of which refer to the album in some way, none of them refer to any actual lawsuits against this work, much less one specifically against the record company specifically sale to a minor. The Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cop_Killer_controversy) on the controversy makes no mention of any lawsuits.

Yes, there was a lot of noise about this song, but as for the lawsuits being "countless"... well, I suspect they weren't in the way that you seem to mean.


I do not know what google you used but I found many hits about the subject. You'll find hits about the hub bub that it caused, you will find hits on the parent advisory lyric stickers, hits on video games, etc etc etc. There is alot of stuff in there is you just dig. You can't just look at the brief under the link and this that is it. But there definitly was a hub bub about it, I don't know if you are even old enough to remember, and the self imposed stickering system that the record industry put on there discs.
I'm not saying that it will come to this in the comic book industry as it has in music or video games, because even with the X-Men movies, Spider Man, and the Fantastic Four people still think comics are for kids. Plus, comics are not every where like music,music videos and games are.
All I was saying by even posting this was that it is a shared responsibilty of both parties invovled. If they can nip it in the bud before it becomes a problem so much the better.

[Not From Around]

Over the weekend I happened to go to the nearest large bookstore (we were in the city for a book festival) and took a look at the manga shelves. They had a couple of unwrapped volumes of "Battle Royale" on the shelves mixed in with everything else in alphabetical order. I'm considering giving someone a friendly warning next time I'm there. They really don't seem to know what they're doing by lumping all the manga together irrespective of target age group.