SPEAKEASY CLOSES ITS DOORS

[gcoleman99]

Originally posted by Ayo
2) Tokyopop is the indie publisher to watch, period. I've seen it mentioned on this discussion topic, but it warrants repitition: Tokyopop are kicking ass because they found an outside market...and built it up from a tiny niche to a much bigger subculture. When Tokyopop began introducing OEL books, they did it carefully...they were clearly testing the waters, but they were able to build it up to a point where they're now drafting some top talent to do series fo them. This is amazing to me. And shows a greater level of market sophistication on each level than the vast majority of Direct Market-based comics publishers. Tokyopop is the publisher to watch ONLY if your a fan of anime. If not, well.... what's the point in watching them?

[Ayo]

Originally posted by gcoleman99
Tokyopop is the publisher to watch ONLY if your a fan of anime. If not, well.... what's the point in watching them?

Incorrect.

First of all, Tokyopop's manga sells like nobody's business. If nothing else, all other comics publishers should look to them for examples of how to properly market comics and reach greater markets. It doesn't matter what genre you're talking about, sound business is sound business. Other publishers continue to lose compared to Tokyopop because they don't see the lessons as being applicable. Big mistake. Business practices are pretty much universal. Details may be tweaked along the line, but the theory is what is solid.

However, what I am specifically referring to is Tokyopop's OEL program--Original English Language books. Now most of these OEL books look like authentic Japanese manga, but the fact is that the company has brought on a handful of non-manga-looking creators to do some books as well. The point is that they know that this stuff will sell like crack because they've set up a strong business plan.


I mean..."what's the point of watching them?"

The point is that they know what they're doing!

[jasonm]

And we'll have to wait and see if the OEL's last long term. Plus do keep in mind comics are still quite profitable for marvel and DC, so following Tokyopop is an unnecessary risk for them. Indy's can mimick it if they wish, but again, they techincally already do (black and white, try to keep prices down, etc.). In the end it's the placement in retail outlets that I feel is the key to their success. Its being in thousands of stores vs. hundreds. I my self love comics and can't find a local place to buy them that doesn't kill half my comic budget in gas.

Tokyopop is doing a wonderful thing, but so far their product is very specific. It would be like selling beer to a consumer or pepsi, just because they are both consumable liquids. The taste is just not gonna be the same and if beer changed it's flavor, well, it would stop being beer. And as for simply adding flavor, comics already do that - the art variety in modern comics is staggering.

I think in the end many feel the success of manga may be transitory. Much like collectibility in the 90's, manga will have a leveling off period.

[Bakema NL]

Indies as a whole should stick their heads together and cooperate, try out something different, together, to get their titles out there.....physically and in the minds of people.
Can't beat the system on your own, which is impossible, try and do it together, you'll stand a better chance.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by gcoleman99
Tokyopop is the publisher to watch ONLY if your a fan of anime. If not, well.... what's the point in watching them?

I think the point that everyone here is trying to make is that as a buisness model the company is one you should be watching. I have no interest in anime or manga but I have an interest in getting my product into just one chain book store. How many Borders are there compared to comic book stores in the country? The comic book store where I from ( yes there is sadly only one they all go out of buisness) doesn't carry a single one. The Books A Million on the other hand has a truck load. They get their product into the people's faces and into the reach.
The other thing too is that it is a niche market. They found a niche in the comic book world and ran with it. I know a lot of people that like Manga and anime but not comics. When they found out about some of the Manga books they were all over them. When I was stationed in Japan I had a bunch of people bugging me to get them anything manga. "It's all in Kangi " I said. They said " I don't care."
So TP has definitly jumped on this thing and ran with it.

[jasonm]

Ok, so what happens when you get your trade accepted by B&N, or any other chain, they place and order for 5000 books and about 1 year after they ship they return them all asking for a refund? Hell, lets say only 4000 get returned, what then? Books are returnable.

[Ayo]

Originally posted by Bakema NL
Indies as a whole should stick their heads together and cooperate, try out something different, together, to get their titles out there.....physically and in the minds of people.
Can't beat the system on your own, which is impossible, try and do it together, you'll stand a better chance.

That would defeat the point of being "independent."

Smaller companies are important to the vitality of the industry. Some of these companies have been operating for decades (Fantagraphics, stand up).

But the thing that your concept overlooks is the health benefits to the field that come from various publishers doing various things.



Fantagraphics, Tokyopop, Oni Press and Aardvark Press are all independent publishers. And all of them have vastly different approaches to the market. All have survived for quite some time (the lattermost, Aardvark has met it's ultimate goal, in fact).

A healthy industry needs different companies that approach things differently to keep said industry vital. It's like doing various exercizes when you work out to keep the whole body in shape.

[Ayo]

Originally posted by jasonm
Ok, so what happens when you get your trade accepted by B&N, or any other chain, they place and order for 5000 books and about 1 year after they ship they return them all asking for a refund? Hell, lets say only 4000 get returned, what then? Books are returnable.

I don't know what you're responding to. What are you referring to?

[jasonm]

I'm about to leave work, my brain is all over! Basically, I was further responding to the idea that a company like Tokyopop is the way indy's should go. There is so much to consider in why or why not a book or company fails or succeeds, it's too easy to make it over simplified.

[Ayo]

Originally posted by jasonm
I'm about to leave work, my brain is all over! Basically, I was further responding to the idea that a company like Tokyopop is the way indy's should go. There is so much to consider in why or why not a book or company fails or succeeds, it's too easy to make it over simplified.

True indeed.

All business plans are based on a business plan from somewhere else. And most business plans [at least those that are designed for specific and unique product markets] depart from the frame upon which they are based at some point.

The point about Tokyopop is that they're doing a bunch of things that are working. Granted, not every company is in the business of licencing manga and developing an OEL line of domestic books. That's fine. The key is to look at what your company has in common with other companies, productwise and goalwise, and then adapting their successes as best you can to your own business plan, while avoiding any pitfalls that the "rolemodel company" may have made.

[dollman]

Anytime an indie publisher goes under it's a sad thing (if not unexpected).

I only ever purchased one title from Speakeasy, the graphic novel "Parting Ways". And the only reason I purchased it was because the writer Andrew Foley lives in town, and frequents one of the 2 comic shops I patronize.

And putting my acquaintance with Andrew aside, it's a damn good story! Unfortunately it looks like Andrew and his creative team might have to cough up $3000 to Speakeasy for outstanding production costs, to maintain their rights.

See Andrew's blog for his take:

http://andrew6.livejournal.com/123731.html

Anyhoo, pick up Parting Ways if you get a chance. Andrew probably won't get anything financially from your purchase, but at least his work will be spread out to a wider audience.

[Nat Gertler]

Originally posted by jasonm
Ok, so what happens when you get your trade accepted by B&N, or any other chain, they place and order for 5000 books and about 1 year after they ship they return them all asking for a refund? Hell, lets say only 4000 get returned, what then? Books are returnable. If that's the only book you have out, then your product has failed, you refund the money to the best of your ability and if you can't return it all, you file bankruptcy. That's the route of companies with failed products. Business is a risk.

But if you have several trades in the pipeline, you should have inbound cashflow from the next couple books to help your ride out that one disasterous book.

[ATKokmen]

In addition to Nat's comments above, I'll just opine that if you get 4000 copies returned off of a 5000 copy sale into the book trade, you've either had some spectacularly bad luck or have a spectacularly bad book. I realize that the numbers were just picked for example's sake, but returns in the book industry generally run 20-30%, maybe a bit higher for a particularly dire circumstance; you probably would have to work pretty hard to have an 80% return rate in the book trade.

Originally posted by Ayo
The point about Tokyopop is that they're doing a bunch of things that are working. Granted, not every company is in the business of licencing manga and developing an OEL line of domestic books. That's fine. The key is to look at what your company has in common with other companies, productwise and goalwise, and then adapting their successes as best you can to your own business plan, while avoiding any pitfalls that the "rolemodel company" may have made.

To the extent that the general point is that a company should pay reasonable attention to developing new products, new markets, new business plans, then I'd hardly disagree. But in looking at the specific case of Tokyopop's OEL initiative and some of their other moves, I think it would be imprudent to state definitively that they "are working" and are necessarily worthy of emulation. It may just be too early to tell.

Originally posted by Fletcher
How many Borders are there compared to comic book stores in the country?

Esitamtes are, what, that there are 2000-3000 comics stores in the U.S.? And nowhere near all of them carry a full line of comics, let alone book-format graphic novels.

There are 466 Borders superstores in the country, and about 700 mall-based Waldenbooks & Borders Express stores. Also, for what it's worth, on the Barnes & Noble front, they have 683 superstores and 141 mall-based stores. And Books-A-Million has a little over 200 stores in the country as well.

[Ayo]

Originally posted by ATKokmen
To the extent that the general point is that a company should pay reasonable attention to developing new products, new markets, new business plans, then I'd hardly disagree. But in looking at the specific case of Tokyopop's OEL initiative and some of their other moves, I think it would be imprudent to state definitively that they "are working" and are necessarily worthy of emulation. It may just be too early to tell.

Fair enough. It IS very early.


On the other hand, the entire arc of Tokypop's growth from Mixxzine to OELs has been several years. It hasn't been long enough to hold them up as gospel, but they've been succeeding long enough that competitors should be able to examine their strategies and import some of the more applicable patterns of their successes into their own plans.

[Ayo]

Originally posted by ATKokmen
To the extent that the general point is that a company should pay reasonable attention to developing new products, new markets, new business plans, then I'd hardly disagree. But in looking at the specific case of Tokyopop's OEL initiative and some of their other moves, I think it would be imprudent to state definitively that they "are working" and are necessarily worthy of emulation. It may just be too early to tell.

Fair enough. It IS very early.


On the other hand, the entire arc of Tokypop's growth from Mixxzine to OELs has been several years. It hasn't been long enough to hold them up as gospel, but they've been succeeding long enough that competitors should be able to examine their strategies and import some of the more applicable patterns of their successes into their own plans.

[gcoleman99]

Originally posted by Ayo
Incorrect.

First of all, Tokyopop's manga sells like nobody's business. If nothing else, all other comics publishers should look to them for examples of how to properly market comics and reach greater markets. It doesn't matter what genre you're talking about, sound business is sound business. Other publishers continue to lose compared to Tokyopop because they don't see the lessons as being applicable. Big mistake. Business practices are pretty much universal. Details may be tweaked along the line, but the theory is what is solid.

However, what I am specifically referring to is Tokyopop's OEL program--Original English Language books. Now most of these OEL books look like authentic Japanese manga, but the fact is that the company has brought on a handful of non-manga-looking creators to do some books as well. The point is that they know that this stuff will sell like crack because they've set up a strong business plan.


I mean..."what's the point of watching them?"

The point is that they know what they're doing! ah, you were talking in the business sense. I thought you meant in general. As I'm NOT a fan of anime, I won't be watching them period.

[garyreed]

Very interesting thread...and I'll throw in my comments.

I think that most independent publishers do rely on the Internet for their promotion as that is primarily what's available to them. When I was running Caliber, we had access with the distributors to utilize their services in getting promotion out without paying a hefty fee...which is now charged. We used to do Caliber Rounds each month which was 12-24 pages of previews, interviews, news, etc. It shipped in bundles of 25 and stores could get it for a nominal fee and when we packed them up, we often put in comics to offset the cost of the Rounds. We distributed anywhere from 7,000-15,000 each month.

We also sent out 1,000 of copies of comics to stores with comics and a sticker on them that said "compliments of Caliber and your favorite store" and left room for a store stamp. We did the same for conventions.

We also had a lot more latitude back then. We could do all kinds of special offerings....a box of Caliber titles for a low price...special packs (all first issues, all David Mack appearances, etc)...things that can't be done now....at least without paying a large fee.

And a huge advantage back then was the number of trade shows which essentially was distributors, retailers, and publishers. A chance to discuss, present the upcoming projects, etc.

So, it is drastically different now...but publishers have to adjust to what they have in front of them. I do agree that the Previews is a mind-boggling mess for independent publishers and it is difficult to separate oneself from the others "back there".

One promotional aspect that would alleviate the costs somewhat is for publishers to band together as a consortium in order to do cross-advertising and promotion. A preview comic or something that can be sent in bulk to stores as giveaways or passed out at cons. Band together and do flip books with two publishers splitting the costs to promote two different titles. Perhaps some kind of actual advertising outside of the comics market (but hard to determine what is the focus on the ad...and have to have somekind of fulfillment capabilities, especially if not stocked at all the direct market stores.) But you know...egos. And also, then you're going to get into qualifying quality.

http://www.garyreed.net/RDbannerad2.jpg

[garyreed]

More comments....

I just read the Publishers Weekly article about Desperado Studios (an independent that is distributed by Image...so if Image is considered an independent, then I guess Desperado is)...but I digress (sorry, Peter)...it said something about Caliber being a short lived publisher. We were around for 12 years and released 1,400 comics or so. I would think many companies would hope for such a short life.

Someone mentioned The Crow and the success it had back then. Well, the first issue of The Crow only sold about 3,000 copies. I printed 10,000 and probably gave away 5,000 of those to promote it. It ended up going back to print 3 more times.

As for the money that CrossGen spent on their initial promotion. To me...to probably all of us...yes, it was a lot of money. But to them, it was very little. They had lots of money, that wasn't thier INTITIAL problem. They spent money in a very crazy way...but to them, it was to build an empire....and money wasn't much of an issue at the beginning. But after years, the money, no matter how much it was, started to run out. But the early promo proved to work to some extent and CrossGen came on the scene in a big way...they just couldn't keep it up.

And while their is an appeal to POD and even getting the book listed on Amazon and BN.com, that still doesn't mean anyone is going to find it and buy it....but it does serve a great purpose in that you have an instant outlet to sell it....but then again, you could do that with your own website.

And while I agree with Robert of most things, I do think independent publishers should sell their product on the website. But I think a lead time should be given to comic stores, especially if its a periodical....and no discounting. Could just tack on the shipping charge for each item, maybe autograph it to give it more value but you don't want to undercut someone that may have supported your book and is still trying to sell their committment.

http://www.garyreed.net/RDbannerad2.jpg

[Bakema NL]

Originally posted by garyreed
One promotional aspect that would alleviate the costs somewhat is for publishers to band together as a consortium in order to do cross-advertising and promotion. A preview comic or something that can be sent in bulk to stores as giveaways or passed out at cons. Band together and do flip books with two publishers splitting the costs to promote two different titles. Perhaps some kind of actual advertising outside of the comics market (but hard to determine what is the focus on the ad...and have to have somekind of fulfillment capabilities, especially if not stocked at all the direct market stores.) But you know...egos. And also, then you're going to get into qualifying quality.
http://www.garyreed.net/RDbannerad2.jpg

Nice insight there Gary. Banding together makes perfect sense, but I'm afraid it's wishful thinking.

Offtopic, but I would like to comment..........I absolutely loved Caliber back in the day and I took a peek at your site..........:eek: A RAVEN CHRONICLES SERIES THIS YEAR ?!??!?!?

You made my day, that was my favorite title from Caliber........I bookmarked your site, keep us updated.

[garyreed]

Originally posted by Bakema NL
Nice insight there Gary. Banding together makes perfect sense, but I'm afraid it's wishful thinking.

Offtopic, but I would like to comment..........I absolutely loved Caliber back in the day and I took a peek at your site..........:eek: A RAVEN CHRONICLES SERIES THIS YEAR ?!??!?!?

You made my day, that was my favorite title from Caliber........I bookmarked your site, keep us updated.

thanks...it was a favorite of mine as well. We did 17 issues of it but I liked the characters so much that I used them in lots of other stuff I was doing...Helsing and Saint Germaine. And of course, they're the central characters in the RED DIARIES graphic novel coming from Image in June.

Haven't really announced anything about the new series...waiting to make sure it gets done first. But the first issue looks great. Art is by Trevor Von Eeden, one of my favorite artists...and he did a very cool Batman when he was doing that book. So, once it gets done...will make the announements.

But the coolest project is coming in October...ah, too early to talk about.

http://www.garyreed.net/RDbannerad2.jpg

[nenad]

Interesting thread.
The Alessi marketing is great if you have Alessi kind of money. Otherwise it's guerilla marketing and no frills marketing.

[garyreed]

Well, he wanted to come in the market in a big way...and he did. But they couldn't build on it for whatever reason.


And I do think that some of the independents could band together in some fashion...just to combine their efforts. There's a lot of redundancy that could be eliminated. Sure, it would involve a lot of discussion but I would think its something worthwhile checking into.

Gary


http://www.garyreed.net/RDbannerad2.jpg

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by garyreed

As for the money that CrossGen spent on their initial promotion. To me...to probably all of us...yes, it was a lot of money. But to them, it was very little. They had lots of money, that wasn't thier INTITIAL problem. They spent money in a very crazy way...but to them, it was to build an empire....and money wasn't much of an issue at the beginning. But after years, the money, no matter how much it was, started to run out. But the early promo proved to work to some extent and CrossGen came on the scene in a big way...they just couldn't keep it up.
http://www.garyreed.net/RDbannerad2.jpg


This is a really great point. One I was trying to make to some one else. They thought that a small indie publisher could do the exact same thing. I guess the poster was in the group that did not think that that was alot of money. They also mentioned some other things they did at the start, which was even more money. but you summed up exactly what I was trying to say. A small publisher, maybe has one or two books, can not start doing all the crazy things that CG did right from the start.

[Frank_Augur]

duplicate post deleted

[Frank_Augur]

I predicted they wouldn't last when I first saw their solicitations.

You have to sell more comics than they are selling.

FA