MARVEL TALKS ABOUT FIGHT CLUB: The T-Bolts New Direction

[MichaelDoran]

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/TBolts076_cvr.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/TBolts076_cvr_t.jpg" width="175" height="254" border="0" alt="THUNDERBOLTS no. 76" align="right"></a>Marvel has issued a first preview look at a revamped/reinvented Thunderbolts ongoing series. Beginning in February with issue #76, the series will feature a brand new creative team, writer John Arcudi and artist Francisco Ruiz Velasco (Lone Wolf 2100), along with a brand new direction, departing almost entirely from the original ‘villains-in-disguise-finding-redemption’ premise created by Kurt Busiek and continued the last several years by Fabian Nicieza.

“Marvel has a history of villains who - after taking a hard look in the mirror - change their lives by finding redemption in the role of hero,” stated the published. “But what about those fiends that look in that cracked mirror... and then smash it with a right cross?”

Marvel says that’s what Arcudi and Velasco will explore starting in February.

“Although the series will star super-villains, don't expect them to have that ‘Golden Age’ glow,” continued the publisher. “This isn't about jailbreaks, bags of cash with big dollar signs printed on them, or running <a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Tbolts76_6.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Tbolts76_6_t.jpg" width="125" height="180" alt="THUNDERBOLTS no. 76 pg. 6" border="0" hspace="1" align="left"></a>away while twirling a pencil-thin mustache. Instead, Arcudi and Velasco reveal what happens to thugs who face a future devoid of hope. It's a voyeuristic look at a world of bloody brawls in abandoned warehouses, the lure of easy money and the desperate smell of sweaty losers.

“Following the sadistic story of an underground fight ring, the monthly series asks: if you're trying to do the right thing, do you stay bitter in your lousy day job or do you make one last grab for fame... by busting heads?”

"We pick up with our main guy just out of prison, but he can't get his drink on because his parole officer is on his back," explained series editor Andrew Lis. "So if that's what you do to relax, what's next? Do you go back to crime? Do you walk the straight-and-narrow? Or - when a surprise opportunity rears its head - do you reach for that ring?

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/TBolts76_7.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/TBolts76_7_t.jpg" width="125" height="180" alt="THUNDERBOLTS no. 76 pg. 7" border="0" hspace="1" align="right"></a>"Anyone who read John's work on The Mask (one of the smartest satires of the last 15 years) or the cult-hit Major Bummer, will love this," continued Lis. "As for Francisco's artwork, this guy is... well, just look for yourself! He's getting better with every page!"

Thunderbolts #76 will be available for order in the next edition of Diamond's Previews and Marvel is also planning to post a free preview dotComic at Marvel.com on December 18th.

Look for more information on the series’ new direction in the coming weeks…

<p align="center"><a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Tbolts76_8.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Tbolts76_8_t.jpg" width="125" height="180" alt="THUNDERBOLTS no. 86 pg. 6" border="0" hspace="1"></a><a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Tbolts76_9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Tbolts76_9_t.jpg" width="125" height="180" alt="THUNDERBOLTS no. 96 pg. 6" border="0" hspace="1"></a>

[gOgIver]

Nice art! :D

[nighthawk]

This stinks!What about Hawkeye and the rest of the real Thunderbolts?

[ojcart]

And this would be a great new direction? I find nothing of interest in it.Sorry, I have just marked another Marvel Comic off my store pull list. Thank you Jemaseda for saving me more money.

Exit Thunderbolts, enter H-E-R-O (or Gotham Central, or Aquaman or any of the other new DC books).

[quote]Originally posted by nighthawk:
<strong>This stinks!What about Hawkeye and the rest of the real Thunderbolts?</strong><hr></blockquote>

They're standing in a corner with signs that read 'will fight crime for food' next to the real X-Force?

Of course, Hawkeye is pointing at the TBolts and laughing while he goes back to the Avengers...

[Reaper]

Thunderbolts was one of my favorite titles while Busiek was writing it and I have kept collecting it (though I have found Nicieza's writing to be too slash and dash for my taste) but this new direction completely kills it for me. Is this Marvel's way of getting even with Busiek for going to DC, by taking a once interesting premise and twisting it into something totally unrecognizable?

No thanks Marvel. :(

-Tim

[Slangword]

Mr. Arcudi is a talented writer, but the information provided so far indicates that I will not find much of interest in this book.

I do feel that his vision would be better served by starting a new series instead of running it in an existing book -- particularly one that has a devoted following (if one too small to continue publication).

So, since I won't be buying Thunderbolts after 75, I've got some extra cash. I'll probably put it toward back issues, or maybe towards getting the Busiek and Nicieza issues bound into hardcover. That would look really nice on my bookshelf, and would make it easy to reread stories that do interest me.

--Scott Rowland

[Icewing_X]

Seems like a decent enough hook. I had grown tired of Tbolts a while ago, so I'll probably check the dotComic of the relaunch out just to see what this new direction entails.

~Icewing, another villain comic, eh?

[nighthawk]

Sales in the book were not that bad.I help pay for JQ and DJ's(dumb Jemas)bonuses......I want answers!

[grendel x]

I don't get this trend to take a title and completely revamp it to the point where it has no relation at all to the previous title but still keeps the same name, especially when the change was due to low sales. If the name isn't selling the book as is why attach something unrelated to it and pass it off under the same name. It would be like taking milk and calling it coke to try to increase sales. It just doesn't make any sense. If the concept is that different, then for god sakes be original and give it a new name that reflects the change, instead of shoehorning it into that title and then "relaunching" it with a new number 1 a few months later and adding the new name then. Less gimicks, more quality reads. But maybe that's just me.

[NeAlhadeff]

Why is this book being called Thunderbolts? Why not just start with a new title and a new Number 1?

[csGuy]

this is insulting, they should give the tbolts a GOOD ending and retire the series, then give this new premise its own series with all the fan fare that would come with a new #1.

C'MON Marvel!! you LOVE first issues remember?!?!

Besides, this new book has nothing to do with the name "Thunderbolts".

UGH.

[thefuuma]

Nice crisp art. However, I am skeptical about the concept-- doesn't sound too prmising forme, but I will reserve better judgment when I hear more.

I am also skeptical about the launching of a NEW concept with an OLD name.

[Mark Thorson]

[GoodGolly]

Holy crap. This looks awful. I'm generally not one to right off a book before it's even published but there's no way I'm picking this one up.

And I have to ask again: why is this still called "Thunderbolts"? At first glance it seems to have absolutely nothing even remotely resembling the concept of the original title. At least with "X-Force" it was a group of mutants who wore costumes, even if everything else was all different.

[Chris]

Well, it's been settled for me. I'm not buying it.

Unfortunately, Marvel's been either cancelling (or threatening to cancel) or chasing me off of my favorite books.

Thunderbolts, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Agent X/Deadpool... I'm sure there's one or two more, but I'm in denial.

Chris

[egads]

Change is good.

Saying that, am I saying that the book is going to be good? Who knows? Am I going to shoot it down before I even read it? Nope. Why not give it a chance to at least breathe? This is the reason the market is the way it is. Too much "I'm not going to read this, or I am only going to read that". Give it a shot, especially when you can read it for free online.

Yes, this is a big departure from the original concept. But that isn't necessarily bad is it? How many times do you see a "new direction" change, only to find out that they changed the costume, replaced body parts, cut off body parts, or change the title for 3 issues, than revert to the way it was before? I can't count how many times. How is this any different than DC's H.E.R.O. comic coming out later, or their revamp of Starman or the JSA. Taking an old concept that wasn't selling and trying to find a market and have it be a best selling title isn't a new idea. The X-Men wouldn't be the X-Men it is today if they stuck to the old formula. Look how many times Aquaman has been done, but DC is still trying to find a market for the King of the Seas. In a time where comics are rehashes or nostalgia comics of the 80's I actually find it refreshing that some comic editors and companies are willing to try something new.

To me, for the long term growth of the industry, it's better to try new ideas, than relying on a trend (80's comics) or old ideas to get out.

[grendel x]

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with change in a title. If there is a valid reason for keeping the same name on the title.. (i.e. some element from the old book branching into the new concept) that's one thing, but when there really isn't anything from the old title left, why bother keeping the name. (gen13 comes to mind, I know Caitland Fairchild is in it, but she has been so minor in that title, it seems like she's there just to justify carrying over the title of the book, I'm sure I could think of others, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment)

[egads]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
[QB]Exit Thunderbolts, enter H-E-R-O (or Gotham Central, or Aquaman or any of the other new DC books).

Yeah, those "new" DC books have never been done before. What is this Aquaman Vol 4? How soon before they cut off Aquaman's head, when it doesn't sell, and fuse a dolphin's head to it, and marketing it "Aquaman's exciting new direction"?
How soon before we see Aquaman Vol 5? And of course the H-E-R-O is so much like it's original concept, in fact not all the characters in the "new" title will be doing things that are considered "heroic". Should we say the title has nothing to do with the stories inside? How many times have we seen Hawkman or Green Arrow? Sometimes the changes work, and sometimes they don't. I see nothing wrong with taking a book and trying to revamp it to get more readers to pay attention to it. Not everyone is going to like it, but some might? Why dog it before it's even read? How do you know the "new" DC books are going to be good?

[egads]

[quote]Originally posted by grendel x:
<strong>Don't get me wrong I have no problem with change in a title. If there is a valid reason for keeping the same name on the title.. (i.e. some element from the old book branching into the new concept) that's one thing, but when there really isn't anything from the old title left, why bother keeping the name. (gen13 comes to mind, I know Caitland Fairchild is in it, but she has been so minor in that title, it seems like she's there just to justify carrying over the title of the book, I'm sure I could think of others, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment)</strong><hr></blockquote>

That I can see. But maybe, and this is only speculation, that Marvel is trying out the concept of the book also. Maybe not everyone is sold on the idea, and rather than invest a large amount of captial on a new title with a new number one issue, they would rather have a sit back and see approach for this book. I am sure if this book takes off, they will repackage the title with a new name and a new number one, much like they did with X-force to X-statix.

[Bastich]

When I first heard about this relaunch, it felt like some kind of karmic payback for X-Force, which was a book I hated before the Milligan/Allred relaunch. I'll miss Thunderbolts, which I've enjoyed since the first issue, but I have to admit that it has never been the most accessible book out there. I only hope these last couple issues leave the characters in a good place before ditching them in favor of this new direction.

[Sean Walsh]

Wow.........Thunderbolts is finally off my reserve list. What a sad sad day... :(

Sean

[J.C. Bakken]

And for the first time in my time at newsarama, I'm really wondering what it is with Marvel these days. First Stanley Leiber is suing Marvel for the 10% thing, and now they are turning another book so much around that is has nothing to do whith anythin before.
Some say change is good, and comics do change from time to time, but it should still be recognisable for those who read it before. This is like taking Cher in for another make-over, but let's make her a man, and one who actually looks her age this time. Or, an better excample, Micheal Jackson. 'nuff said.

My point beeing, it worked with X-Force/Statix, it didn't with F-Force, as far as I can tell. Why are they so surtain it'll work here. There will be a new name and a number one, down the line. In fact, that's my strong belive and (for those nitpickers out there) opinion.

Another thing, I just bougth the new Avengers by Goeff, and I must say they are quite good. Kieron is in my opinion a hit and miss as an artist on this, but his last 2 ish's are far better then what came at the end of the Kang-War. And with the new and ol' cast mixed, this was fresh air of Marvel comic, a winner i my mind of what a Marvel comic should be. The good Feeling was there.
Same feeling I've had with Thunderbolts. I missed much of the first 50 , but from 51 and up, I've been collecting. And, what I've read both with Kurt and Fabian, seen by Mark and Patrick, is really good stuff, and kind of nostalgic, I'll must say, and with everything a'new all the time, there is just Avengers left, and to some degree Uncanny X-Men.

To me, the new Thunderbolts dosn't look like my cup of tea, not even Joe. But, I gotta give this a try, since I love the tittle. I just have to keep an open mind when I buy it.

BTW; the same open mind a used reading Marville 1 and 2, got shut down for re-booting. It couldn't belive what it read. That was really a stinker.
If anything should be re-booted with an all-new, all-different theme, it should be that book.

[Billy]

Hahahahahaha, you're all hilarious. I'm buying this, great premise, great art, all by a great creative team. I'm so sick of old school super-heriocs. This book will appeal to readers like me, who love their Oni press, Ait/Planet Lar, IDW, etc. Good for Marvel, for again, trying something different. And the more fanboys it pisses off, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

[egads]

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
<strong>Hahahahahaha, you're all hilarious. I'm buying this, great premise, great art, all by a great creative team. I'm so sick of old school super-heriocs. This book will appeal to readers like me, who love their Oni press, Ait/Planet Lar, IDW, etc. Good for Marvel, for again, trying something different. And the more fanboys it pisses off, the better, as far as I'm concerned.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. I think this is so far away from something that Marvel would do, that it would actually attract readers. I think it will attract those who normally wouldn't read Marvel comics to begin with. Maybe that's the reason for the drastic change?

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
<strong>
They're standing in a corner with signs that read 'will fight crime for food' next to the real X-Force?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

This made me laught out loud. By "real X-Force," I'll assume you're talking about Cannonball and all the pre-Milligan era guys, correct? You're just kidding, right? You don't really miss those guys, do you?

[Billy]

"I agree. I think this is so far away from something that Marvel would do, that it would actually attract readers. I think it will attract those who normally wouldn't read Marvel comics to begin with. Maybe that's the reason for the drastic change?"

Thats exactly the way I see it. Also, I'm willing to bet a few of those who bashed this book by a simple online preview will be buying at least the first issue of the new direction.
Also, I can understand people being upset over the change in a books dirction, but honestly, how different was Thunderbolts from all the other numbers of super-hero books out there? You can keep reading this, and get something new, or start reading another pointless, disposable super hero book.

[csGuy]

I think i've figured it out!!

If a book is headed in an all different direction with new characters and (optional) all different creative team then the book keeps its numbering.

ie:
x-force to 'new' x-force
tbolts
black panther 50+


but if a book is keeping the characters, concepts and even the creative team but goes in a slightly direction then its time to reboot!

ie:
upcoming peter parker
cable-> soldier X
x-force-> x-statix
captain marvel

OH Quemas, so clever with the counter-intuition!

[Tue Sorensen]

Marvel hits another all-time low. Behold the New Fascist Marvel. An openly sadistic comic with no redeeming features, starring villains who beat each other to bloody pulps? That anybody seriously proposed this idea, and especially that somebody okayed it for publication, neatly sums up what's wrong with the current comics industry. I am disgusted. Just for doing this book, I'm going to stop buying half of the Marvel titles I get now. I now have about 1% left of the already negligible respect I had for Quesada & Jemas ten minutes ago.

Yeah, yeah, I'm overreacting. But that's how bad that preview looks. I don't know which is worse, the concept or the art. Together they certainly make a magnificently malodorous miasma. Brrrr!

[egads]

Wow, some people take comics a bit too serious. It always amazes me how people threaten to stop buying comics (mostly Marvel) because they don't like a policy or don't like a concept or don't like who's in charge. Can you not separate the comic from the company? Do you agree with everything that the US government does or all of their policies? Is that going to stop you from living here or enjoying the rights you don't have a beef with?

Or in a consumer point of view, you didn't like Kevin Costner's masterpiece "The Postman" that was green lighted and distributed by Warner Brothers. Are you now not going to watch any more WB movies?

It's funny how polarizing comics are. Whatever happened to reading a good comic when it's good, and not reading a book when it's bad. Whatever happened to giving a title a chance? My goodness they are even going to let you read the first issue for free online? What more do you want? It seems that many people equate everything that Marvel does as bad, and everything that DC does is good. People need to get over their political-like platforms. Sure Marvel makes bone-headed decisions and greenlight projects that don't quite find a niche. Are they the only companies that do so?

Let's look at DC's marketing ploy. Let's kill everyone who was a hero, and bring back someone in their place, only to be re-replaced by the original character. Oh, we can also replace the original character with multiple replacements. Or better yet, let's keep bringing characters for multiple volumes, such as Aquaman or Hawkman. Did any of these decisions change your mind whether or not you were going to pick up a book? Or did you give these books a chance to grow on you? Or did you simply follow your DC only stance and pick up the book and praise all the "new" stuff they are doing simply because they are DC?

Before people rip into me in defending Marvel or accusing me of being Quemas, let me say that first and foremost, I dig comics. Doesn't matter who draws it or who publishes it, if it's good I'll pick it up. I didn't like Sandman from DC, but I was a fan of Checkmate. Many of my favorite comics of all time were done by DC, as well as Marvel.
I read a book when it's good and only when it's good. I don't equate Marvel=good or DC=bad. They both produce stellar books sometimes, and sometimes they both produce crap.

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
<strong>Hahahahahaha, you're all hilarious. I'm buying this, great premise, great art, all by a great creative team. I'm so sick of old school super-heriocs. This book will appeal to readers like me, who love their Oni press, Ait/Planet Lar, IDW, etc. Good for Marvel, for again, trying something different. And the more fanboys it pisses off, the better, as far as I'm concerned.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You seem to be missing the point. This looks good and will sell and find a fanbase. Though why not a new name and nuumbering? all this does is piss off the thunderbolts fans who might have checked this book out and marvel loses sales. In the case of X-Force it was just one mutant team replacing another. A great idea and a nice way to give the new titles a little push form the old name. Marvel is trying it again here but the problem is the concepts are too diffenrt the only tihng the same is the idea of villians starring in it. Why call it thunderbolts? Seriously give me a reason. Is the arena named that, do the competitors call themselves thunderbolts? As far as I am concerned marvle just cancelled my favorite book. Will I try the new tbolts out? depend son how the dot comic looks but prob not because it'll remind me of at one time my facvorite book. I feel a little odd as I think I finally understand what all those crazy HEAT people have been bitching about for years.

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
<strong>"I agree. I think this is so far away from something that Marvel would do, that it would actually attract readers. I think it will attract those who normally wouldn't read Marvel comics to begin with. Maybe that's the reason for the drastic change?"

Thats exactly the way I see it. Also, I'm willing to bet a few of those who bashed this book by a simple online preview will be buying at least the first issue of the new direction.
Also, I can understand people being upset over the change in a books dirction, but honestly, how different was Thunderbolts from all the other numbers of super-hero books out there? You can keep reading this, and get something new, or start reading another pointless, disposable super hero book.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I actually cared about the characters and have been with them since issue one and have watched them grow. Unlike you and others who apparently only read books because of what genre they are I like to read about characters I enjoy and concepts. A sad day when we limit ourselves to only watching comedies or watching dramas. I won't be replacing thunderbolts with anytihng I'll just be saving 2 bucks a month.

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by csGuy:
<strong>I think i've figured it out!!

If a book is headed in an all different direction with new characters and (optional) all different creative team then the book keeps its numbering.

ie:
x-force to 'new' x-force
tbolts
black panther 50+


but if a book is keeping the characters, concepts and even the creative team but goes in a slightly direction then its time to reboot!

ie:
upcoming peter parker
cable-> soldier X
x-force-> x-statix
captain marvel

OH Quemas, so clever with the counter-intuition!</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is the funniest post I have ever read and surprisingly it is true. Think about all the relaucnches the spidey books, captain amrvel, cable, x-force, daredevil, avengers captain america, etc. They pretty much in most cases had no major differnces form their first volumes. Sometimes at first they did but soon fell back to old ways. Yet stuff liek this gets put under the title of something completely differnt to help selel the book. odd so very odd. Personally I hope one day marvel goes back to the old numbering. There's just something aobut those big numbers that give a company bragging rights.

[Starsky_Hutch76]

THe title was in a bit of a slump, but this is like hacking off your own foot because you have ingrown toenail. That's one more title off my pull list.

For the very few saying this is a good thing, think of it from the point of view of the real fans of this book. What if you were a Spiderman fan and the book were suddenly turned into one about a homocidal were-spider living in medeival Russia instead of Peter Parker. You probably wouldn't be very happy about it.

[KingStalin]

Just wanted to sya one lasdt thing. I hope this is a Max book or at least gets a PG+ violent content rating. That's a lot of blood for a minstream marvel book.

[Boink182]

egads,

You are turning this into a Marvel vs DC thing here though. You also do this very often always in favor of Marvel.

That argument doesn't even fit here. Those who are upset are Thunderbolt fans, I'm betting. T-bolts was a pretty cool Marvel book which had a pretty cool fanbase and characters that Marvel fans liked.

This new direction has nothing to do with DC. I agree with you, that people should try this book before dissing it. I even think the premise is very interesting. This is what I'd imagine a new Secret Society of Super Villains title would be like. I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered that this was a SSoSV proposal.

I'm going to try it out, even though I did like the T-bolts. I think it's a neat idea.

However, I can totally understand why T-bolt fans would be upset. Some of us actually like the old-direction. I don't know if such fans can make an argument that an old-direction or new-direction is better for Marvel, but personally, some of the fans who liked Baron Zemo and Hawkeye will be disappointed.

Btw, H-E-R-O is said to be a cross between Astro City and 100 Bullets. I think it's safe to say that it's gonna be a cool new direction and not traditional super-hero.

[Boink182]

Btw, I'd prefer this new book to be called something else. Maybe Marvel should make an attempt to steal Secret Society of Super Villains from DC :D .

C'mon Jemas, you'd get a more appropriate title and piss DC off at the same time!

[jasinmartin]

It's hard to read all of these negative posts and not argue against them, but hey it's your opinions. Mine is that if Marvel wants to use certain marketing strategies that's their perogative. Obviously if they're totaly changing a title, the former would have been canceled anyway, so what's the big problem with them piggy-backing off an existing title?

Will a good percentage of the existing readers walk? Probably, but damn sure some will stay. In case you haven't noticed, this "thriving" market isn't too friendly to new titles. I'd prefer Marvel gets some fresh new product out there any way they can!

Also, I really dug Arcudi's run on Major Bummer, and keep waiting for him to recapture some of that magic. And Velasco is a great artist too!

Looking forward to it!

[beta-ray]

egads said:
[quote] Wow, some people take comics a bit too serious. It always amazes me how people threaten to stop buying comics (mostly Marvel) because they don't like a policy or don't like a concept or don't like who's in charge. Can you not separate the comic from the company?<hr></blockquote>


Although there may have been some sentiment toward quitting Marvel comics due to this change of title I would say most people responding here would just drop Thunderbols, not neccessarily Marvel.

and furthermore:
[quote] It's funny how polarizing comics are. Whatever happened to reading a good comic when it's good, and not reading a book when it's bad. Whatever happened to giving a title a chance? My goodness they are even going to let you read the first issue for free online? What more do you want? <hr></blockquote>

Uhmm regarding reading a good comic when it is good and not when it is bad, I think that's what several people here have said. Actually I read a title when it's good and if it gets bad I give it a chance. They are going to let me read the first issue online? How nice. Maybe I have a slow connection? Maybe I hate online versions of comics... What more do I want? Maybe give Thunderbolts a decent ending and have this new incarnation either be called something else or give it a few months before launching.

further more:
[quote]Let's look at DC's marketing ploy. Let's kill everyone who was a hero, and bring back someone in their place, only to be re-replaced by the original character. Oh, we can also replace the original character with multiple replacements. <hr></blockquote>

Well in that case most of the time there is some kind of tie in. Normally with DC it is another version of the hero... similar uniform different person. A legacy of some sort. At least the title matches the comic.

Who knows, maybe the new Thunderbolts will be great? Maybe they WILL tie it in SOMEHOW? From the solicitation though it sure doesn't look like it. Glad that I read Newsarama though... Marvel's solicitations have really been lean and not helpful at all.

I am saddened because in the past, if there was one title I would keep were given the choice it would have been Thunderbolts...

[Gelogurte]

[quote]Originally posted by NeAlhadeff:
<strong>Why is this book being called Thunderbolts? Why not just start with a new title and a new Number 1?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I could ask the same thing...

Just because it's about criminals they'll dump the good old Thunderbolts and make a whole new thing?

Don't get me wrong, this may turn out to be great like Milligan and Allred's X-Statix. In fact, I wasn't reading X-Force before they revamp it. I just lost interest after a few issues (although Jimmy Cheung's pencils were spectacular!). But damn... I love the T-Bolts just the way they are!

Now to be fair... Arcudi is good and these pages look awesome! Is that... that loser Armadillo? If this is half as good a comic book as "Fight Club" is as a movie, then Marvel has a sure hit in their hands.

Mr. Lis, you better be right about this because damn it! I'll miss the good ol' T-Bolts.

[jagtech13]

Y'know, I came on board this book all the way back at #1. Yep, a dozen years in the hobby. Collecting for years each title. And now Marvel leaves this crap in my pull list. No, the new book will not totally suck. What happened to the T-Bolts does. Really, what is the purpose of the drastic change other than ticking off long time fans like me? An interesting title is one thing, I buy plenty of those. Nope, this smacks of desperation, lack of respect for the characters and long time readers, and what the heck does the name have to do with this revamp? :confused:

Oh, and at least X-Force made sense since a government sponsored team stole the name of an existing team. What of the new T-Bolts? Villians don't make a T-Bolt. Redemption does. Ah well, that's what makes a fanboy. Actually having collected long enough to respect and know all of the characters. :) :) :)

[BuRn]

I was with T-bolts since its start, its mysteries and subplots really appealed to me. With its new direction... I'm not so sure I'm gonna buy it. I'll give it a chance like i do to many titles under relaunch... if it stinks, I'd just drop it.... just like the post-joe-q iron-man.... And John Acrudi have write interesting books, but... sales have always been bad for his books for them to be dropped... (think the above mentioned Major Bummer and of the ill-fated doom patrol) :(
I guess this is the end of another good marvel title... But like i said, I'd be giving it a chance...

[MindTricked]

*shakes head*
I'm basically going to ignore all the previous posts (I've read 'em, trust me), and just toss in my own two cents here.

I've been reading Thunderbolts since it's inception, reading their original appearances in Hulk # 449 and the Tales of the Marvel Universe one-shot. I've enjoyed the stories told by Busiek, Bagley, Zircher (what happened to him, anyway?) and, for the most part, Nicienza. This past year, the title has slowly been losing my interest, and what went from the 3rd read of the 3rd week, behind Peter Parker and X-Men, to the issue I read just before I jump into a mini-series book. There have been good parts, don't get me wrong, but something's been missing.

A few months ago, I read that the current creative team (meaning Nicienza and whomever is pencilling his stories, since Zircher seems to have vanished), and I instantly lost interest, knowing that the title probably wouldn't be around much longer afterwards... And that's a shame.

This isn't like the change on X-Force, not even remotely. My major complaint with this, though, is that the concept AND characters are changing so thoroughly that # 75 SHOULD be the last issue, and a new title/new # 1 should be instituted. It's really beyond me to figure out the logic here.

The sad thing is, the completist in me REALLY wants to continue buying the book, even though there's nothing about characters/concept/creative team (no offense meant, really, and I wish them luck) that appeal to me. Will I order # 76? I really doubt it. Will I have a change of heart when I go to pick up my books that week? Probably. But, really - Thunderbolts is pretty much dead to me. I'll just have to bury the completist in me, because I really shouldn't be buying comics just to have a complete run, even though I have very little interest in the material (and I have the Secret Wars II crossover books to prove it). So, in my mind, I'll have a complete run - it just won't look as good on paper.

Fare thee well, Thunderbolts - let's hope you don't all vanish into the obscurity that your replaced counterparts had. Thanks for the good times.

~a True Believer, having his faith shaken to the core~

[Robotsurfer]

I think this sounds interesting. I was getting tired of Thunderbolts, which seemed to be losing steam and really should've ended with #50, a perfect ending place for the whole story.

[sidepocket8ball]

WHAT THE CRAP IS THIS?!?? I won't even finish reading this article brfore posting . I'm too incensed. If THUNDERBOLTS is doing poor, and gets cancelled, that I can understand. Sucks,but I get it. I have been with it since # 1, AND WHERE DOES MARVEL GET OFF CONTINUING THE NUMBERING, LET ALONE THE TITLE ITSELF THIS WAY?????? Thunderbolts was one of the LAST superhero TEAM books that I was collecting. I liked the book. I DON'T like the fact the name of this essentially completely NEW BOOK is being called the Thunderbolts. I can't say it enough: WHAT THE CRAP?!?

[DragynWulf]

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>Wow, some people take comics a bit too serious. It always amazes me how people threaten to stop buying comics (mostly Marvel) because they don't like a policy or don't like a concept or don't like who's in charge. Can you not separate the comic from the company? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow, what amazes me is that readers like yourself assume that people that like the color red will automatically like the color yellow just because a company says it is better. This is a complete new comic. The concept is different, the characters are different, the writers style is different, the art style is different, and the editor is different.

[quote]<strong>Or in a consumer point of view, you didn't like Kevin Costner's masterpiece "The Postman" that was green lighted and distributed by Warner Brothers. Are you now not going to watch any more WB movies? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Lets make a consumer point of view more to the situation if you want to go that route. That is just like telling people that WIN XP is better and everyone should like it just because Micorsoft says it is better. There are those that don't like the look of XP and prefer WIN 98 instead even though the other is updated and made by the same company.

[quote]<strong>It's funny how polarizing comics are. Whatever happened to reading a good comic when it's good, and not reading a book when it's bad. Whatever happened to giving a title a chance? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Do you give every title a chance? If you did then you would have to be picking up every comic that is made. Those images are give for people TO see if they are going to be interested in it or not and to be judged by the readers one way or the other. Marvel would hope that it would be that it is talked about in a good way more than a bad way, but that isn't always the case.

[quote]<strong>My goodness they are even going to let you read the first issue for free online? What more do you want? </strong><hr></blockquote>

And they couldn't do this for the current THUNDERBOLTS that already had a group of readers. Quesada said that the reason why there was no advertisement for THUNDERBOLTS and other lower selling titles was because they want to spend money on the higher selling titles in order to get the attention of the readers and to try and get attention to the lower selling titles. This is a new comic with no readership other than those that have a subscription through Marvel (they don't get a choise on if they want it or not, they just get "THUNDERBOLTS"), but yet it gets a DotComic even after Quesada said that THUNDERBOLTS would never get a DotComic (talking about the current title). So, this new title gets heavy promotion while they let the other die off with none.

[quote]<strong>It seems that many people equate everything that Marvel does as bad, and everything that DC does is good. People need to get over their political-like platforms. Sure Marvel makes bone-headed decisions and greenlight projects that don't quite find a niche. Are they the only companies that do so?</strong><hr></blockquote>

This isn't about Marvel VS any other company. It is about Marvel period. But you want to talk about what you call "bone-headed decisions". Lets talk about the amount of money that Marvel likes to waste on advertisement and other things.

WITCHES for example. It was given a very large advertisement at WizardWorld by placing it on the cover of the program, trading stock cards made, mention of it in press confrences, mentioned about to online news sources, hypeing the upcoming release to be released along with a one-shot to reintroduce the characters, and other things. Where is the title? No where that is where because it wasn't released.

Another example, all the extra ink wasted on various covers like the #001 of 004 for a limited series. Sure, adding an extra "00" is something small, but it all adds up. How much extra ink was used for all those printed on every cover. A waste of money.

[quote]<strong>Let's look at DC's marketing ploy. Let's kill everyone who was a hero, and bring back someone in their place, only to be re-replaced by the original character. Oh, we can also replace the original character with multiple replacements. </strong><hr></blockquote>

That was part of a storyline of that title.

[quote]<strong>Or better yet, let's keep bringing characters for multiple volumes, such as Aquaman or Hawkman. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well known characters with a fan base already.

[quote]<strong>Before people rip into me in defending Marvel or accusing me of being Quemas, let me say that first and foremost, I dig comics. Doesn't matter who draws it or who publishes it, if it's good I'll pick it up. I didn't like Sandman from DC, but I was a fan of Checkmate. Many of my favorite comics of all time were done by DC, as well as Marvel.
I read a book when it's good and only when it's good. I don't equate Marvel=good or DC=bad. They both produce stellar books sometimes, and sometimes they both produce crap.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As I mentioned above, do you buy every new comic that comes out? If not, by your words alone you are judging every new issue you don't try out and give a chance. Not talking about just Marvel or DC, we are talking about comics in general. It shouldn't mater who prints it.

What do you consider to be a "good" comic? Is it the artwork? The story, plot, or concept? Or is it a combination of everything? Me, it is a combination of everything and with what they have shown and told about it, one can give a judgement on if they are going to like it or not. That art is not my style and I will not be buying it. I am not a fan of the LONE WOLF 2100 comic or the art. I don't like John Arcudi's writing in MASK or DOOM PATROL. It holds no interest to me at all. What held an interest for me was the writing style that Busiek brought to the title and then what Fabian brought afterwards. The artwork that both Bagley and Zircher gave to the title after Bagley left. The characters that beat the crap out of the Avengers, took over their mansion, put Hercules in a coma, tricked the world into thinking they were heroes, had the entire world under mind controled, looked at how the public viewed them as those heroes and wanted to be that, and tried to prove to the world that they really were trying to be the "good guys" this time around instead of crying wolf. THAT is what interested me.

[Warewolf]

Okay, I read the article in Wizard and now I've read this. I've been an avid fanatic of Thunderbolts since issue 1. That's gotta be one of the greatest concepts in comics in the last ten years. I have absolutely zero interest in this new direction. The creators have no draw for me. Guess I'll stop buying this title with issue 75 :(

[TemporalFlux]

Well, this answers my question then. No need to bother with Thunderbolts after 75...off my pull. If I wanted solely pretty pictures with ignorant fighting, there is a large stash of 90's comics I can get for a dollar apiece at my shop (and yes Marvel...believe it or not, there's a reason those are still in the box and now a dollar apiece or less).

A shame...even though it had fallen some of late, Thunderbolts had been an inventive, surprising and entertaining title for a very long time. It deserved an exit with more dignity...more mercy than it is going to get now.

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
[QB]

And they couldn't do this for the current THUNDERBOLTS that already had a group of readers. Quesada said that the reason why there was no advertisement for THUNDERBOLTS and other lower selling titles was because they want to spend money on the higher selling titles in order to get the attention of the readers and to try and get attention to the lower selling titles. This is a new comic with no readership other than those that have a subscription through Marvel (they don't get a choise on if they want it or not, they just get "THUNDERBOLTS"), but yet it gets a DotComic even after Quesada said that THUNDERBOLTS would never get a DotComic (talking about the current title). So, this new title gets heavy promotion while they let the other die off with none.QB]<hr></blockquote>

I forgot all about that. It just shows that slowly everything before joe and bill is getting changed and dropped regardless of what people thought or loved about it. Let's look at Tbolts. Tom Brovelont (sp?) was the editor planned this big cool biweekly summer program for the title whoiioch would end with the 75th issue and a new direction for the team. Shortly after Tom is no longer the editor, Zircher (a true up and comer in ym mind) is gone and the book is monthly again. Also I find it odd that last months previews said issue 75 was the end of vol. 1 of thuinderbolts and now we find out it's not. Folks don't be surprised that if in the next 6 months we see Peter David and preist gone form marvel along with their titles. Thankfully Tom Defalco's spider-girl reaches an audience that no other marvel books does or i bet that would be gone and still it not 100% safe. If they all went Dan Jurgens on Thor would be the only creator left form the days before joe and bill. It's kinda scary. (Also the artists don't count as the kuberts and romita jr's are marvel artists and will be there for the next 10 eic more than likely).

[Hellboy15]

Ive got to agree with the opinion that this should just be a new book. I used to like thunderbolts, but it also seemed like it should be finite, so if they need to cancel it, thats fine with me, I understand. But from a marketing standpoint I just don't see it. The only thing I can think of is that thunderbolts is one of the few books that you'll find in a waldenbooks, and they want to take advantage of that. I would assume that most of these places and distributors continue to order the same series no matter the direction, so by keeping the name they get what would be a new book, and harder to get on a newsstand, out to a wider audience. Then again, I know nearly nothing about newsstand distribution, its just a thought I had. Put out a new number one, the name is cheesey and dosen't seem to fit anyway, and then everyones happy, both current fans, and anyone who likes this idea (which I'm willing to check out), and you get to market a new number one. Damn it Q&J, I know you read these boards, the fans have spoken, and damn it, this time the fans make sense.

[Aaron]

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
<strong>Hahahahahaha, you're all hilarious. I'm buying this, great premise, great art, all by a great creative team. I'm so sick of old school super-heriocs. This book will appeal to readers like me, who love their Oni press, Ait/Planet Lar, IDW, etc. Good for Marvel, for again, trying something different. And the more fanboys it pisses off, the better, as far as I'm concerned.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Glad you could take time out of your busy schedule to join us, Mr. Jemas.

Aaron

[wraith]

I'm so glad, that marvel is revamping t-bolts. Not because I'm a fan of john arcudi or because I think the art looks great. No, I'm happy about this revamp, because I'll be saving $2.25 a month, since I wont be picking this crap up.

[Hellboy15]

I've got to ask some of the people that are very angry with this, if this was a new book and not T-bolts, would you have a different opinion of it. I'm just curious wheather the anger on this board is directed just at the choice to call this T-bolts, or if people really thinks this looks that bad.

By the way, I repeat my stance, think this might be decent, but think it should have a new name.

[minmin]

art looks great..

will browse it at the store.. to see if the story interests me..

why doesn't marvel just cancel t-bolts.. and have fabian work on a new ... NEW WARRIORS series..

and could we please get Jon Bogdanove back.. and have him do a POWER PACK series..

PLEASE?

and while they're at it... i wanna see McDuffie to DAMAGE CONTROL again!!!!

[Dan20]

Got to agree with the majority who think they might as well restart the book. Seems like the only reason they're not is to grab the collectors who have been around since issue #1 and don't want to stop before the book is done.
Well, I've been around since issue 1, and maybe I'll pick up #76, but it doesn't look likely.
Great, new premise? Not really. Haven't we seen this a million times before? Criminal wants to go straight, but different factors keep pushing him in the other direction, and he wonders if doing that "one last job" will help him out. Yawn...
Oh, wait! This has Fight Club stuff thrown in! Umm, sorry...that's not enough to redeem my interest (if anything, page after page of pointless fistfights lessens my interest).

While Thunderbolts wasn't as fun as it used to be (it used to be one of the most fun and surprising books on the stands, issue after issue), I'd say either just return it to its former glory or end it.

Why is it they renumber books that shouldn't end (all of the books that should be in the 400's or 500's by now) but keep the numbering on books that they totally change?

[Optimus Chris]

Um... I think I'll pass. :(

[MattFreakinLittle]

[quote]Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
<strong>They're standing in a corner with signs that read 'will fight crime for food' next to the real X-Force?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...Now, THAT is funny.

[Billy]

It seems that the only people complaining are those who have been reading pretty much just mainstream books from the big two their entire lives. Now that's sad.

[Billy]

[quote]Originally posted by Aaron:
<strong>

Glad you could take time out of your busy schedule to join us, Mr. Jemas.

Aaron</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hahahaha, that was actually pretty funny. For the record, no, I am not Bill Jemas, and I have no desire to ever work for the man. I don't like him. Hahaha, this post made me laugh, I don't care if Aaron disagrees with everything I say, I like him.

[NicholasWyche]

Billy & Egads--
You've both hit it on the head. I read 5 or 6 issues of both Busiek's and Nicieza's T-BOLTS in the past. They were (very) mildly entertaining with, at best, competent and unexciting artwork. This book, I will be giving a shot.
As to why Marvel would do this to an exsisting series versus starting a new one: Start-up and promotional costs on a new title are probably more costly than trying out a new concept in an exsisting title with an exsisting budget. It's all about working within financial guidelines.
As to why they would piss off the fans of the exsisting title; evidently there weren't enough readers of the old title to merit keeping on with it in the same manner. If the readers (i.e. sales) were there, they wouldn't do it.

[Super Skrull]

[quote]Originally posted by Hellboy15:
<strong>I've got to ask some of the people that are very angry with this, if this was a new book and not T-bolts, would you have a different opinion of it. I'm just curious wheather the anger on this board is directed just at the choice to call this T-bolts, or if people really thinks this looks that bad.</strong><hr></blockquote>


If this was a new title I don't think I would be too interested in it (although I'd definitely check out the dot comic when it came out).

If they cancelled Thunderbolts I would be disapointed and still have about as much interest in this fight club-style title.

But when then cancel a series I really enjoy and replace it was a totally different cast/theme, it completely pisses me off and makes me not want to give the new direction a chance. So yes, my anger would be that they have rid the old cast with no chance to see them for at least a year, (at least with X-Force if you liked that team you could expect to see some of them pop up in other x-titles, Thunderbolts have just gotten the shaft and wont be seen at all for a long time, save perhaps Hawkeye).

[Tomas]

*lol* Are you serious? *lol*

A new year... something this comic won't live to see... and it's too bad cuz Thunderbolts is a great comic right now.

[Tomas]

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>Or better yet, let's keep bringing characters for multiple volumes, such as Aquaman or Hawkman. Did any of these decisions change your mind whether or not you were going to pick up a book? Or did you give these books a chance to grow on you? Or did you simply follow your DC only stance and pick up the book and praise all the "new" stuff they are doing simply because they are DC?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

DC stance? You can switch Marvel with DC and Captain America, The Punisher, Fantasic Four and The Avengers with Hawkman and Aquaman with what yer saying and it would make just as much sense.

[Boink182]

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
It seems that the only people complaining are those who have been reading pretty much just mainstream books from the big two their entire lives. Now that's sad. <hr></blockquote>

Lol, damn mainstream superheroes from Marvel and DC. Sad buncha comics, those.

I think Marvel might be shooting themselves in the foot by not appreciating the mainstream enough. Yes, the material should be modernized, but still keep what makes it different than anything on TV. Looking at their movies, I think new fans would enjoy some super-hero action, don't you think. Instead, they might be picking up books with a glacier pace and no action...and well...there goes your new reader.

Seriously, I don't see what's so great about awesome new directions like Daredevil and the Hulk. There's much better law-drama and conspiracy-suspense on the television. Why pay $3 for Daredevil if you've got the Practice on ABC? Mainstream super-heroes though...the comics still beat their cartoon counterparts. Oh, wait-a-minute. Scratch that. X-Men Evolution is far more entertaining thatn New X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, and Ultimate X-Men..and it's for free!

[BarryWeen]

[quote]Originally posted by J.C. Bakken:
<strong>BTW; the same open mind a used reading Marville 1 and 2, got shut down for re-booting. It couldn't belive what it read. That was really a stinker.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

My condolences to your mind. No one should ever be subjected to such psychological tortue.

Marville exemplifies the very essence of cruel and unusual punishment.

:)

[Franklin Harris]

I find it odd that Marvel is adopting the same failed strategy with Thunderbolts that it did with X-Force. Eventually, Marvel abandoned the X-Force title, renamed the book The X-Statics, and restarted it with a new No. 1 issue.

Marvel could avoid all of this by simply canceling Thunderbolts and starting this new concept off in its own title. And I suspect fans of the classic Thunderbolts would be happier to see the characters they've followed for these past several years go out with a bang (a final issue) than a whimper (getting booted out of their own book).

[Dave Cummings]

Here is a concept for most people on here.


Why don't you WAIT UNTIL THE BOOK ACTUALLY COMES OUT BEFORE YOU JUDGE IT

I mean jesus f*cking christ, I try to avoid looking at the talkback section, but it is like a train wreck. Almost every news story it seems like we have the same bunch of jokers tossing out how they don't like it.

Sorry, I am just getting really tired of the piss poor attitude that alot of people here seems to have.

And the most annoying thing is people who will gripe about how much they hate a book that has not even came out yet with a concept that they havent really read yet. Why don't you actually wait until the book comes out and look at it with an open mind.


Oh I'm sorry, this is comic fans I am talking about. And it is crap like that which gives people who dig comics a bad name.

That said, I am fairly optimistic about the series. I've dug work that the creators have done in the past, so I hope that this will be pretty good. That and the concept of it sounds interesting enough.

The question remains though, With Francisco Ruiz Velasco doing the art of the Thunderbolts relaunch, what is going to happen to the Lone Wolf and Cub 2100 series that he is working on?

~Dave

[NicholasWyche]

[quote]Originally posted by Franklin Harris:
<strong>I find it odd that Marvel is adopting the same failed strategy with Thunderbolts that it did with X-Force. Eventually, Marvel abandoned the X-Force title, renamed the book The X-Statics, and restarted it with a new No. 1 issue.

Marvel could avoid all of this by simply canceling Thunderbolts and starting this new concept off in its own title. And I suspect fans of the classic Thunderbolts would be happier to see the characters they've followed for these past several years go out with a bang (a final issue) than a whimper (getting booted out of their own book).</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're making the incorrect assumption that the strategy is a "failed" one. With the X-FORCE revamp, the concept proved popular enough that the company, evidently, had to begin paying Rob Liefeld royalties again. Since he had thing zero to do with this version of the team, they relaunched it in it's own title and it's continued to do well.
What people don't seem to get is that the start-up costs for a new series are probably more than using an existing, already-budgeted, title as an experiment. If T-BOLTS had been generating the number of readers (i.e. sales) that Marvel felt it should, it wouldn't have been cancelled. It obviously didn't, so they are trying a new direction.

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>Yeah, those "new" DC books have never been done before.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Have Gotham Central and H-E-R-O been done before? Maybe some indy publisher or Image did something similar to Gotham Central (Powers maybe?), I can't deny that such a concept (cops in a city with a super hero) hasn't existed before, but this 'version' looks very interesting and I like Lark's work a lot, so I know it will look very good.

As for H-E-R-O, this is a concept I really like (notice I said concept, not direction, even though the proposed direction sounds very interesting). The H-dial is a very cool comic book artifact and I've been a big fan of the idea for a LONG time, so it makes sense to get this comic.

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>What is this Aquaman Vol 4??</strong><hr></blockquote>

Could be Volume 5 I think, and he's still the same old Orin. I do wish they'd let Garth have a chance at the name already...

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>How soon before they cut off Aquaman's head, when it doesn't sell, and fuse a dolphin's head to it, and marketing it "Aquaman's exciting new direction"?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I doubt 'that' will happen, but could Aquman get a new direction FOR the star character? Sure, that's always possible, but at least it will STILL be Aquaman (unless they decide to change him for Garth), not a new group of character that have nothing to do with the book they appear in, like in the case of this book (Thunderbolts).

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>How soon before we see Aquaman Vol 5?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sooner than we'll see Thunderbolts Volume 2 with the original characters that people like?

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>And of course the H-E-R-O is so much like it's original concept, in fact not all the characters in the "new" title will be doing things that are considered "heroic".</strong><hr></blockquote>

The new H-E-R-O is NOTHING like the original. The original dealt with teens that would become heroes and lived in two different towns (of course I'm ignoring the character called Hero from Superboy and the Ravers as well as Lori Morning from Legion of Super-Heroes here, but that's becuase they came after the original three H-dial users). This concept deals with different people all over the country (world?) getting their hands on the Dial. Unlike regular comics where a person is the star, in H-E-R-O it's the dial that is the star.

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>Should we say the title has nothing to do with the stories inside?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If by that you mean that the characters would necesarily act like Heroes, then yeah, but since the title refers to the four letters on the dial and not a human quality then no. The title has everything to do with what's inside.

Like I said, in H-E-R-O the star of the series is the artifact, not a person (like Batman or Superman). Do you see a tangled web in Spider-Man's Tangled Web? No, because the title is metaphorical.

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>How many times have we seen Hawkman or Green
Arrow?</strong><hr></blockquote>

As long as writers that like the characters have
stories to tell? (or as long as the editors want, then fire the creators and replace them with someone else?)

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>Sometimes the changes work, and sometimes they don't. I see nothing wrong with taking a book and trying to revamp it to get more readers to pay attention to it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And as long as that direction is in line with the concept people like (i.e. Captain Marvel) then the original fans will support it. When the concept has nothing to do with the original idea (like in the case of TBolts) then it's not surprising that the people that supported the original will drop the book if they don't agree with the new direction.

Having said that I want you to take notice of what people are saying.

Most people AREN'T complaining about the new direction, they are complaining about why the book they like had to end for the direction to exist when

A) Supposedly what failed is the title (Thunderbolts)

and

B) This new direction could have been launched as a new series. Doesn't Marvel have enough faith in it to give it its own title? Or did they learn from the Agent X/Soldier X mistakes?

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>Not everyone is going to like it, but some might? Why dog it before it's even read? How do you know the "new" DC books are going to be good?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Those that might will get them, those that aren't insterested (like me. I wqouldn't buy this series even if it was a separate title, but I would keep getting TBolts) will drop the book.

As for how do I know if the DC books will be good... I don't!

All I know is that Gotham Central and H-E-R-O have both directions that sounds interesting and Aquaman has a character I like.

The new TBolts don't have either, so I'm dropping it. If I wanted to see Fight Club I'd rent the movie or read the book...

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter :
<strong>This made me laugh out loud. By "real X-Force," I'll assume you're talking about Cannonball and all the pre-Milligan era guys, correct? You're just kidding, right? You don't really miss those guys, do you?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Those are the ones I meant. And it's not a matter of me liking them or not. Marvel is comparing this relaunch with the X-Force relaunch and the guy who I replied to asked what's gonna happen to the original TBolts, so I replied that most it's most likely that they'll go the same way than the original X-Force, into comic book limbo till some writer brings them out... I just said it with a 'joke' :)

[tralfaz]

This sounds like a good book, better served as a mini series. This will get cancelled ina year based on the fact that it's title THUNDERBOLTS and many of its fans will leave because there aren't any THUNDERBHOLT members in the damn book.

What the hell is going on in Marvel these days. They're trying so hard to be different that they're alienating their hardcore fans for the sake of change. I'm all for change, but this just seems like some way to seem "mature and trendy". Whatever floats your boat Marvel, just don't muck with the Avengers

[Kurt Avery]

I'd heard about this new direction on THUNDERBOLTS a few weeks ago, from a friend in the Comic Book Resources Chat Room -- but was skeptical that they would take such a bold, exciting new direction on a book that was traditionally so boring.
I bought the first ten or so issues of the book, but was bored to tears by Busiek's work on it (as I have been by everything I've read from the man), so it's nice to see them trying something new, even if it might not succeed because people just can't accept changes on their "superdudes" books.
This is very much in the same vein as X-FORCE, with the "if it's broke, fix it" mentality. I mean, barring Ellis's revamp a few years ago, this book has NEVER been nearly as good as it was after Milligan and Allred took the reins. They made X-FORCE (and now X-STATIX) one of the best, most popular and critically-acclaimed books on the shelf, after a long life as a sad outgrowth of the early '90s "pre-Image" days.
This might actually get me to pick up THUNDERBOLTS again, even though I'm not a huge fan of John Arcudi. I'll just have to see what happens.
And yeah, the art is mucho grande. :)

Chuckles

[DragynWulf]

[quote]Originally posted by Dave Cummings:
<strong>Here is a concept for most people on here.


Why don't you WAIT UNTIL THE BOOK ACTUALLY COMES OUT BEFORE YOU JUDGE IT</strong><hr></blockquote>

Obviously you don't know why comic companies release information on comics prior to it the release date. They do this so people can get a look at it, judge it on what they have said, decide if they want to get it, decide if they want to try it out, or decide if it isn't something for them. Movie companies do the same thing and that is the purpose of a "preview". You get to view what the story is about and what it looks like without giving away major parts of the storyline. Don't complain to the fans that don't like it. Complain to Marvel for putting out a preview of it because this is why they put a preview of it (and other comics) out.

[quote]<strong>I mean jesus f*cking christ, I try to avoid looking at the talkback section, but it is like a train wreck. Almost every news story it seems like we have the same bunch of jokers tossing out how they don't like it. </strong><hr></blockquote>

And those that automatically follow anything and everything that Quesada says is good are not "jokers"? There are "readers" if you will that will read anything that pisses people off just because it does. There are also "readers" that say they are going to check something out just to piss the fans of that title off and not actually check it out themselves. But they are not "jokers" to you it seems. As long as there is automatic good talk going on instead of people actually talking about what they like or dislike about it.

[quote]<strong>Sorry, I am just getting really tired of the piss poor attitude that alot of people here seems to have.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If someone doesn't like the art, which can be clearly seen and isn't going to change on the next page or the last page, then they don't like it. If someone doesn't like the writing style of the the writer, then they don't like it. It isn't going to change from page one to page twenty-two. It is the piss poor attitude of those that always say "give it a chance" when half of them are not even going to give it a chance themselves becasue they don't like it themselves.

[quote]<strong>And the most annoying thing is people who will gripe about how much they hate a book that has not even came out yet with a concept that they havent really read yet. Why don't you actually wait until the book comes out and look at it with an open mind.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh, but those that say "great concept, great art, great writing" are "great" and "okay"? As I mentioned above, they put out the previews to give the readers a taste of what is going to happen so they can decide if they will be interested in it or not.

[quote]<strong>Oh I'm sorry, this is comic fans I am talking about. And it is crap like that which gives people who dig comics a bad name.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, this does not give comics a bad name at all. It is those that talk down on comics itself that give it a bad name. Talking about one title does not effect the entire comic industry at all.

[quote]<strong>That said, I am fairly optimistic about the series. I've dug work that the creators have done in the past, so I hope that this will be pretty good. That and the concept of it sounds interesting enough.</strong><hr></blockquote>

See, your one of the group that likes the concept, the art, and the writer's previous work. Not everyone will. Doesn't make you a person that is "bad" or anything. It just means that Marvel put out enough information in their previews that drew your interested. What you do with that interest is up to you. You might pick it up and try it or you might not and only want to go on a defending spree of a new title that you have no interest in yourself just to try and make others look bad (again I said "might").

[SalCipriano]

This sounds very cool to me. I've never liked Thunderbolts, it was way too mid ninities for me, a time I just didn't care for where superhero books were going. I'm also a big fan of both the creators here, so added plus. Big ups to Andy Lis and boys, I'll be checking this out.

[Psivage]

What happen to the Armadillo? He has a human face and hands now.That is not the Armadillo I know.
I actually thought that Armadillo would make a good Thunderbolt.

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by tralfaz:
<strong>
What the hell is going on in Marvel these days. They're trying so hard to be different that they're alienating their hardcore fans for the sake of change. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Alienating their hardcore fans? Yeah, all 27,170 of them. That's how many people bought Thunderbolts this month, according to <a href="http://icv2.com" target="_blank">icv2.com</a>

I don't think they are doing it just "for the sake of change," it looks like they are doing it for the sake of sales. Twenty thousand people, hardcore or not, isn't really that much. Thunderbolts has been around for a long time, and has never attracted too much attention. The new direction, I think, will have at least a better chance of hooking in some new readers. Thunderbolts lack of popularity may have something to do with Marvel's lack of promotion, but it may also just be that not many people are interested. There's potentially a lot more people that would be interested in this new direction. I know that the people here and the 20,000 Thunderbolts fans may not see it that way, but Marvel is in trouble if it caters to much to such a small group.

[TemporalFlux]

[quote]Originally posted by Dave Cummings:
<strong>Sorry, I am just getting really tired of the piss poor attitude that alot of people here seems to have.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Enh...I'm personally tired of PollyAnnas like you telling me what I should think. If it looks and smells like a pile of feces, I'm not going to reserve judgment until I taste it. You go right ahead and take up a mouth full. I just hope you've stocked up on Listerine.

[DragynWulf]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>

Alienating their hardcore fans? Yeah, all 27,170 of them. That's how many people bought Thunderbolts this month, according to <a href="http://icv2.com" target="_blank">icv2.com</a>

I don't think they are doing it just "for the sake of change," it looks like they are doing it for the sake of sales. Twenty thousand people, hardcore or not, isn't really that much. Thunderbolts has been around for a long time, and has never attracted too much attention. The new direction, I think, will have at least a better chance of hooking in some new readers. Thunderbolts lack of popularity may have something to do with Marvel's lack of promotion, but it may also just be that not many people are interested. There's potentially a lot more people that would be interested in this new direction. I know that the people here and the 20,000 Thunderbolts fans may not see it that way, but Marvel is in trouble if it caters to much to such a small group.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Your missing the point. Sure, there was only 27,170 issues sold of THUNDERBOLTS #74, but you need to look at the reasons why there were only that many issues sold. Going back to April of 2001 (only because that is as far as ICv2 goes), you can see that THUNDERBOLTS sold 34,746 issues and was at #36 (outselling MARVEL KNIGHTS, which was at #50, but yet MK got advertisement). Marvel at that time only had four limited series out at that time. Those were X-MEN FORVER (At #34), TANGLED WEB THE THOUSAND (at #15), DAREDEVIL YELLOW (at #13), CITIZEN V (a spinoff of THUNDERBOLTS at #58), and FANTASTIC FOUR WORLDS GREATEST COMIC MAGAZINE (at #103). There are now 16 limited series out and all of them get advertisements. CALL OF DUTY (BROTHERHOOD at #107, PRECINCT at #115, AND WAGON at #118) all get the most and sell far less. Yet this gets an ongoing title. Then you also have to look at all the top selling titles that are getting published twice a month (an idea of Fabian's). So we get two issues a month of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN and ULTIMATE X-MEN. Add ULTIMATES #10 to it (which we all know will not be released at that time). All of these push the sales of a title that gets no exposure from Marvel down further on the charts and Quesada knows this, but would rather blame it on the creators and give an excuse on why they don't advertise it (yet advertise lower selling titles that he created/started/worked on).

With all of these titles, people only have a limited amount of money they can spend each month. Marvel knows this. Just because a new comic comes out doesn't mean people can afford to buy it along with the rest of the ones that they want to. By doubling up on the top selling titles and characters, Marvel will bring more money to those titles in that month, but at the cost of the lower selling titles expence. Especially those that don't get advertisement.

[Jeremy Williams]

My opinion on this progect: WOW!!!

[Jamie S. Rich]

Sounds like a great gig for Arcudi, playing to his strengths. John is a great guy, so I'll likely give it a look.

Still wish there was a complete MAJOR BUMMER trade at DC, though.

[Erik Sternberger]

wow....I can't believe all the animosity going on here towards anything.

Here are my two thoughts, NOT judging the work, or making assumptions about it's quality.

1) Using an established name to push something un-related. My only thought on this is "I-Spy". I think they should give the new creative team their own title and a push on the #1 to show them tha t they have confidence in them.

2)<<Yeah, those "new" DC books have never been done before. What is this Aquaman Vol 4?>> Yeah, it is something like that Vol 4, but it is still the Aquaman character. It isn't taking something like "4 inner city youths struggle with their new powers and how to cope with racism" under the title "Aquaman". If a character is successful or not isn't the issue here, but if I picked up an issue of Aquaman and found the idea I put in quotes I would be pissed.

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong>
Your missing the point. Sure, there was only 27,170 issues sold of THUNDERBOLTS #74, but you need to look at the reasons why there were only that many issues sold.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I think you're missing my point. I don't think that there's any way to justify such low sales. Not many people are buying Thunderbolts, and I shouldn't single that title out, because not many people are buying any comic. No major company likes having to settle for 20,000 or even 100,000 units sold. Millions of movie tickets, DVDs and soundtrack CDs were sold for Spider-Man, all of which cost more than a single comic, yet the Spidey titles still sell under 100,000. Marvel wants to tap into a larger audience, and I believe that Thunderbolts as it currently exists has shown that it cannot do that. I don't think any amount of promotion is going to improve sales on Thunderbolts in a significant amount. Will the revamped title burn up the charts? Probably not, even thought it probably will outsell the current title. But it seems to have a little more mass appeal than the current Thunderbolts. There's at least a larger potential audience for the new book, while the current one has shown that it appeals mostly to a pretty narrow section of the public.

[Danilo Raul]

Doing a thing for the sake of purely shock value is not a good way to make the people buy your stuff, it's short term. i think Marvel should have released the concept (a very interesting one by the way) as a new book and kill the Thuderbolts tittle just to give a little respect to the fans.

By the way all the people who has maked this kind of statement should do it at Quesada's and Bill face on his site Joequesada.com, i think they'll appreciatte that! ;)

[DragynWulf]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>

Well, I think you're missing my point. I don't think that there's any way to justify such low sales. Not many people are buying Thunderbolts, and I shouldn't single that title out, because not many people are buying any comic. No major company likes having to settle for 20,000 or even 100,000 units sold. Millions of movie tickets, DVDs and soundtrack CDs were sold for Spider-Man, all of which cost more than a single comic, yet the Spidey titles still sell under 100,000. Marvel wants to tap into a larger audience, and I believe that Thunderbolts as it currently exists has shown that it cannot do that. I don't think any amount of promotion is going to improve sales on Thunderbolts in a significant amount. Will the revamped title burn up the charts? Probably not, even thought it probably will outsell the current title. But it seems to have a little more mass appeal than the current Thunderbolts. There's at least a larger potential audience for the new book, while the current one has shown that it appeals mostly to a pretty narrow section of the public.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You didn't listen to what I said at all did you? Spider-man and X-Men are characters that sell by themselves. Marvel is using that by increasing the number of titles that are released each month because it is their number one selling characters right now. By doing this, it hurts the sales on the lower titles because everyone can't pick up all the titles they want to. Thus the titles that get the less attention suffer. Before all these large amount of limited series of Spider this and X that and the double issues of SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, and ULTIMATE X-MEN the lower selling titles were selling at a good rate (THUNDERBOLTS was selling better) because there wasn't as may out. When something is over done/used, something else is going to suffer for it and in this case, it is the lower selling titles that get no attention or titles that Marvel refuses to give attention to.

THUNDERBOLTS would have never made it into the Top 20 because of the characters used in that title. But it still made money without any advertisement or help from Marvel. If it would have been given advertisement, the TPB treatment, promotion, and other things, it would have done better. The only promotion that titles like BLACK PANTHER, SPIDER-GIRL, CAPTAIN MARVEL (until the U-Decide thing), and THUNDERBOLTS would get is from the creators themselves. They took their own time out to talk to readers on a personel level to promote the title. That is it. SPIDER-GIRL, BLACK PANTHER, and CAPTAIN MARVEL would get some because they would be on and off the chopping block of cancellation. THUNDERBOLTS was never on that chopping blcok because it sold. It sold better than MARVILLE, CALL OF DUTY (All three), ELETRA: GLIMPSE & ECHO, and others, but yet they are still being praised (and CALL gets an ongoing).

If you want to talk about movie, that is a completely different area. Look at SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, and DAREDEVIL. They all had characters that wore/wear the dreaded "costumes" that Quesada dislikes so much. Sure, the costumes went from spandex to leather because it worked better on film, but it is a costume. Those are making more money than any of the comics combined, but yet it is a thing of the past. Yeah right. If it did, then they would not have made as much money as it did.

[Fanboyimus Prime]

I agree: I have no idea why this is being called "Thunderbolts". I mean the Redeemers had Jolt, Fixer and Charcoal on the team.

True I liked the X-Force revamp(I hated the fact that the old X-Force was made into the Authority). I liked that the old X-Force fought the new one.

I don't know if I'll read the new Tbolts or not.

[Mr. Fantastic]

This is highly disappointing. I have thoroughly enjoyed Thunderbolts since I picked up issue 1, which offered the greatest moment I've ever seen in comics. For almost 75 issues, until this recent slide as they rush out the old creative team, this title has been one of the most consistent out there. Two writers, and two artists. Compare that to the X-Titles over the past five or six years. The characters have really been fleshed out, and they have kept the same core group together.

I will be trying issue 76, but I guarantee that Thunderbolts will be off my pull list unless it is excellent.

It's too bad Marvel won't allow the title to finish wiht dignity, and start this as something else. 75 issues, with all of their great crossovers, in a nice trade or hardcover set would be the perfect way to wrap up this excellent series.

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong>
Spider-man and X-Men are characters that sell by themselves. Marvel is using that by increasing the number of titles that are released each month because it is their number one selling characters right now. By doing this, it hurts the sales on the lower titles because everyone can't pick up all the titles they want to. Thus the titles that get the less attention suffer. Before all these large amount of limited series of Spider this and X that and the double issues of SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, and ULTIMATE X-MEN the lower selling titles were selling at a good rate (THUNDERBOLTS was selling better) because there wasn't as may out. When something is over done/used, something else is going to suffer for it and in this case, it is the lower selling titles that get no attention or titles that Marvel refuses to give attention to.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you're saying that if Johnny Fanyboy is buying T-Bolts and Spidey every month, but then Spidey goes bi-weekly, and he can only afford two books a month, he'll buy both the Spideys because it gets more advertising? I just don't agree with that. I don't think that people are that easily swayed by advertising. If someone stops buying a book, that usually means that they don't like it, or they think that their money would be better spent. It's not necessarily the less-advertised titles that suffer, it could just be the less-liked titles.Maybe Johnny just likes Spider-Man better.

I'll agree that Thunderbolts should have been better promoted by Marvel. But it wasn't as if they completely ignored it, either. It's had crossover with Avengers (when that title was very near the top of the charts), it had a #0 issue in Wizard, there was a recent trade paperback, it was one of the first titles to have a 100-Page Monster, it has often been in the house ads, plus very frequent coverage in Wizard, etc. They probably could have done more, but I don't think all the blame must go to the lack of promotion. I think that the creative team and the concept just aren't enough of a draw for most people. I think that a lot of people have dropped the book not because they heard more about the bi-weekly X-Men or something, but because they just haven't been satisfied with the book. If they really liked the book, they would buy it.

Thunderbolts may have been turning a profit, and it may be higher in the charts than other titles, but that's just not always good enough. The Call of Duty books, for example, are new, and maybe Marvel is just hoping that they will build some steam as they go. Thunderbolts has had plenty of chances in the past 5 years, and it has, for the most part, gone down in sales. It just hasn't caught on, and it probably never will. From a business perspective, that doesn't look good. Marvel is a business, and they want as many people as possible to read their books. The old T-Bolts hasn't helped much, and they are hoping the new one will.

[Jeremy Williams]

The fans with tastes will like this book :D

[tralfaz]

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
<strong>The fans with tastes will like this book :D </strong><hr></blockquote>

I like the idea of this book, but I have no taste.

again, this shouldnt have been a THUNDERBOLTS book.

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>

Alienating their hardcore fans? Yeah, all 27,170 of them. That's how many people bought Thunderbolts this month, according to <a href="http://icv2.com" target="_blank">icv2.com</a>

I don't think they are doing it just "for the sake of change," it looks like they are doing it for the sake of sales. Twenty thousand people, hardcore or not, isn't really that much. Thunderbolts has been around for a long time, and has never attracted too much attention. The new direction, I think, will have at least a better chance of hooking in some new readers. Thunderbolts lack of popularity may have something to do with Marvel's lack of promotion, but it may also just be that not many people are interested. There's potentially a lot more people that would be interested in this new direction. I know that the people here and the 20,000 Thunderbolts fans may not see it that way, but Marvel is in trouble if it caters to much to such a small group.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Never attracted any attention? I believe the first year won a ton of fan awards including surprise of the year and writer and artist i believe.

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by Erik Sternberger:
<strong>
2)<<Yeah, those "new" DC books have never been done before. What is this Aquaman Vol 4?>> Yeah, it is something like that Vol 4, but it is still the Aquaman character. It isn't taking something like "4 inner city youths struggle with their new powers and how to cope with racism" under the title "Aquaman". If a character is successful or not isn't the issue here, but if I picked up an issue of Aquaman and found the idea I put in quotes I would be pissed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dude you ar emissing the point! An aquaman book with inner city kids would rule. every issue would end with aquaman hugging them and explaining not everyone is racist. We need more homoerotic aquaman comics!

[KingStalin]

Hey look for the fourth time I'm a member agian! (counting anotheruniverse, comicon, before the crash, and after.) My final say is I enjoyed tbolts. will never buy the new one as I'd rather just watch fight club. I know I should be bitter at marvel, for "ruining" a lot of books I love. But you need to think of it this way. All things have an ending. Thunderbolts ends with issue 75. to me. I will go bakc and reread the adventure and thank God the book was made in the first place. Do I blame marvel? No. I get to save money now and when each week comes I enjoy all the books I have left and have a smile on my face as I can spend my extra money on something else. Honestly I can't wait to see Hawkeye and hopefully songbird become Avengers. I just hope Zemo remains the bad ass villian Busiek made him.

[pupaboy]

I have been buying the Thunderbolts since issue #1. After seeing this preview, I think this is a good jumping off point for me. This stuff just plain stinks. I thought Thunderbolts was one of the few remaining old school Marvel books with lots of action and character development. Well, another bites the dust...so sad!

[Jon Knutson]

Well, if I had any doubt in my mind that I would drop T-Bolts from my pull list before this issue comes out, that's certainly wiped them out.

Damn... you know, when stuff like this happens, I just have to shake my head. I think with this book going off my list, that'll put my Marvel titles down to FF, Captain Marvel, and the Avengers. Well, there's the new MOKF and Killraven series, but the way things seem to be going, I'll be able to look for those titles being cancelled before long, too.

I started buying T-Bolts because Busiek was writing it, and kept buying it because I liked the characters... I've got no reason to buy it once this starts!

[DragynWulf]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>

So you're saying that if Johnny Fanyboy is buying T-Bolts and Spidey every month, but then Spidey goes bi-weekly, and he can only afford two books a month, he'll buy both the Spideys because it gets more advertising? I just don't agree with that. I don't think that people are that easily swayed by advertising. If someone stops buying a book, that usually means that they don't like it, or they think that their money would be better spent. It's not necessarily the less-advertised titles that suffer, it could just be the less-liked titles.Maybe Johnny just likes Spider-Man better. </strong><hr></blockquote>

The advertising helps out a lot. If a reader doesn't know about a title, what reason would they have to pick it up? Spider-man is a more popular character than the Thunderbolts are. That alone will generate sales because of popularity of the character. If Johnny (as you say) buys AMAZINE SPIER-MAN, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, and THUNDERBOLTS, then a new comic comes out with Spider-man is released, but Johnny only has a limited amount of money to spend due to small allowance or bills. It is obvious that Johnny likes Spider-man and he will drop THUNDERBOLTS for SPIDER-MAN because he likes the character more. Sometimes Johnny has to pick between Spider-man titles even because suddenly there are two more new titles out, but he can only get one of them. The more popular character will win always and that is why you will always find Spider-man and X-Men titles selling the best out of all the Marvel titles. The characters sell themselves. Look at the "award winning" writers on ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, DAREDEVIL, and other Marvel titles. Do you think it is the writers that sell those titles? Not a chance in hell. They might get some readers, but it is the characters that sell the title. If it was the creators that did it, then POWERS, FILTH, and any other title that they worked on would be in the Top 20, but they are not and never will be.

[quote]<strong>I'll agree that Thunderbolts should have been better promoted by Marvel. But it wasn't as if they completely ignored it, either. It's had crossover with Avengers (when that title was very near the top of the charts), it had a #0 issue in Wizard,</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was how long ago? Back when THUNDERBOLTS #23 was out.

[quote]<strong>there was a recent trade paperback,</strong><hr></blockquote>

That TPB basically had the samething that the other 3 TPB had in them. All material from the begining. Nothing has been shown past THUNDERBOLTS #5 in a TPB. There has been nothing in TPB form to show how the characters have progessed since wanting to become heroes or what Fabian has taken them through. How many times can new readers get onto a TPB with the same material? Do you like it when a TPB just reprints something you already have in another TPB of that same title?

[quote]<strong>it was one of the first titles to have a 100-Page Monster, it has often been in the house ads, </strong><hr></blockquote>

What house ads are you talking about? Marvel hasn't done anything in a house ad for THUNDERBOLTS since HEROES RETURN I believe.

[quote]<strong>plus very frequent coverage in Wizard, etc. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Do you read WIZARD monthly? The last time THUNDERBOLTS was mentioned was when it talked about the new direction. Before that, it was to talk about the rumors of the upcoming new direction. Before that it was only because Fabian wrote into WIZARD in the letter columns. Before that, they got mentioned in the little preview section listing the name and the price of the title.

[quote]<strong>They probably could have done more, but I don't think all the blame must go to the lack of promotion. I think that the creative team and the concept just aren't enough of a draw for most people. I think that a lot of people have dropped the book not because they heard more about the bi-weekly X-Men or something, but because they just haven't been satisfied with the book. If they really liked the book, they would buy it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Some will leave because they don't like the direction that the writer is taking it. That happens with every title even SPIDER-MAN and X-MEN. In this day and age, people do not have as much money to spend on the titles that they like and Marvel is trying to soak up everything they can through the character's popularity. There is a word/term for it, but I can't remember it off hand for some reason.

[quote]<strong>Thunderbolts may have been turning a profit, and it may be higher in the charts than other titles, but that's just not always good enough. </strong><hr></blockquote>

If Marvel would have put effort in helping the title at all, the sales would have increased. There still would have been readers that would have left because they didn't like the writing, but new readers would have still picked it up because of the advertisements and not over populating the comic business with another Spider-man or X-Men title. Quesada uses the excuse that they advertise the higher selling titles to draw in readers to the lower selling titles. CALL OF DUTY, MARVEL KNIGHTS, and others are proof that this is inccorrect while THUNDERBOLTS would out sell them with no advertisement from Marvel.

[quote]<strong> Call of Duty books, for example, are new, and maybe Marvel is just hoping that they will build some steam as they go. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Hoping they will build? Have you seen where I mentioned how low in the charts they are selling, even with media attention, a DotComic (which the current THUNDERBOLTS never got), constant hype, advertisement at Marvel's own website, mentioned in the MARVEL ENCYCLOPEDIA, and everywhere else you can think of. But yet THUNDERBOLTS still out sells it even issue #74.

[quote]<strong>Thunderbolts has had plenty of chances in the past 5 years, and it has, for the most part, gone down in sales. </strong><hr></blockquote>

And I told you how and why it went down in sales. When it was mentioned that Marvel titles would go bi-weekly, not one word was mentioned of THUNDERBOLTS in the list of Marvel titles. You only heard about SPIDER-MAN, ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, ULTIMATE X-MEN, DAREDEVIL, and other top titles that already sell. Nothing on it being Fabian's idea to take THUNDERBOLTS bi-monthly and Jemas/Quesada liking that idea, so they used it on the top selling titles. What was told was that all those titles that had a problem of being released on a monthly scedule and were behind would be able to get caught up this way.

[quote]<strong>It just hasn't caught on, and it probably never will. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Becasue it was never given a fair chance by Quesada to find out if or if it wouldn't succeed because he would rather leave it to hang itself, while making more money off the top selling characters and promoting all of his ideas and projects.

[quote]<strong>
From a business perspective, that doesn't look good. Marvel is a business, and they want as many people as possible to read their books. The old T-Bolts hasn't helped much, and they are hoping the new one will.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Your right, Marvel is a business and the current THUNDERBOLTS is making them money while other titles that are projects of Quesada and Jemas continue to make less money, but still get published. How many times was MARVEL KNIGHTS started over? Three times and each time it failed, but it was a project of Quesada's and each time (except for the #1 issue I believe), THUNDERBOLTS outsold it. When BLACK PANTHER left the MK line, it was no longer helped and look where it is now. Still has the same writer on it, but not the MK brand and therefore no advertisement. When it did have the MK brand and the advertisement, it was selling very well.

[Beyerstein]

so is Hawkeye going back to the Avengers or what?

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong>The more popular character will win always and that is why you will always find Spider-man and X-Men titles selling the best out of all the Marvel titles. The characters sell themselves. Look at the "award winning" writers on ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN, DAREDEVIL, and other Marvel titles. Do you think it is the writers that sell those titles? Not a chance in hell. They might get some readers, but it is the characters that sell the title. If it was the creators that did it, then POWERS, FILTH, and any other title that they worked on would be in the Top 20, but they are not and never will be.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're write about that last point, but I think that the creators is a large part of a title's success. Spider-Man is selling better with JMS than with Mackie, and hasn't "always," as you say, sold among Marvel's best titles. Like it or not, Avengers wasn't even on the top 100 before Liefeld came on. By the time Busiek and Perez came on, it was Marvel's best-selling non-X title.

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong>
What house ads are you talking about? Marvel hasn't done anything in a house ad for THUNDERBOLTS since HEROES RETURN I believe.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They used to run those ads that showed four comics covers from one month called "Marvel's Hot Picks" or something. I remember seeing them for T-Bolts a lot, like the one where Hawkeye and Moonstone kiss, the one where Angel guest-starred and the 100-Page Monster. Later, they had adds where they'd show a few recent covers next to a review, and they often used T-Bolts (and usually Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Avengers.)

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong>Do you read WIZARD monthly? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope. I used to, but I haven't for some time, so I guess this point is no longer true. But they used to talk about it a lot, just after Nicieza
took over. They had sidebars talking about who the new Scourge might be, and Nicieza's first issue was on the top ten list, stuff like that.

In fact, it was Wizard's coverage that made me pick up a few issues of the title. It was a disinterest in the team that made me drop it. If I admit that some people may stop buying T-Bolts because of lack of promotion, will you admit that some people may have stopped picking it up because they thought it was terrible?

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong> Hoping they will build? Have you seen where I mentioned how low in the charts they are selling, even with media attention, a DotComic (which the current THUNDERBOLTS never got), constant hype, advertisement at Marvel's own website, mentioned in the MARVEL ENCYCLOPEDIA, and everywhere else you can think of. But yet THUNDERBOLTS still out sells it even issue #74.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe Quesada just thinks that the Call of Duty books are worthwhile and interesting, and deserve promotion, because he hopes people will pick them up. If they don't, then I guess he was wrong. But I guess he felt it was worth the try. Maybe he also just doesn't like the current T-Bolts, and doesn't think it's worth the promotion. No company has ever promoted all of its titles equally. The guys in charge have to decide what to push and what not to push, and sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're wrong.

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong> And I told you how and why it went down in sales. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, but I'm not sure that they "why" of it makes that much of a difference. The bottom line is that the sales of Thunderbolts aren't very good, and they need to be fixed. This new direction is an attempt to do that.

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong>Your right, Marvel is a business and the current THUNDERBOLTS is making them money while other titles that are projects of Quesada and Jemas continue to make less money, but still get published.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Quesada has always made it clear that, while he wants to make Marvel profitable, he also wants the quality to be high. Remember when he cancelled profitable X-titles like Bishop and Gambit because they were terrible? So, yeah, he's promoting titles that he likes. What's wrong with the E-I-C liking one title more than another?

Sometimes titles get cancelled. Sometimes they deserve to get canned, and sometimes not. I'm not convinced that T-Bolts doesn't deserve it. It's sales have been low (for whatever reasons) and Marvel is looking to bring them up. The new direction looks like it might do that, so I can't fault them for trying to get some new readers.

[Hellboy15]

I don't know why I keep seeing people mention the film fight club, this concept doesn't seem to be a thing like fight club except that it has a club that fights, if anything it seems more like snatch. A lot of people seem to assume that fight club was a movie about underground fighting, when its really not about that at all, and the actual fighting takes up a miniscule amount of the movie.

Honestly, I'm surprised so many people seem to think this concept is so awful. Taken away from the title, taken away from anything else, the idea of superpowered underground boxing seems like a strong one to me. I know not everyone will like it, but i don't see how someone can call it shit based just on that concept. People don't seem to just be saying "not my thing" they seem to genuinely loath it.

Once again Im just talking about the concept, I agree with most that the name should change.

[Destron]

The concept is villains looking for redemption. The new premise is life after villainy but none of the superheroics?
Sounds like a whole different book instead.

[Ned Leeds Jr.]

[quote]Originally posted by Psivage:
<strong>What happen to the Armadillo? He has a human face and hands now.That is not the Armadillo I know.
I actually thought that Armadillo would make a good Thunderbolt.</strong><hr></blockquote>

um.... didn't Armadillo die several years ago in Captain America? You'd think that a Marvel editor would have done some homework on this before greenlighting it. ;)

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>The new direction, I think, will have at least a better chance of hooking in some new readers. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I have no doubt in my mind that the new direction will atract new readers... but will it attract more than 27,170 readers??

That's the question...

[DavidStallard]

I used to read Marvel comics almost exclusively. Thanks to the antics of Quemas, I now read only two Marvel books--Avengers and Thunderbolts--and I'm buying a lot more from DC Comics these days.

With this latest stunt, Marvel has killed another book for me...now they just need to screw up Avengers and they'll have severed ties with me completely.

David

[Looney As A Toon]

Well, I've been on the borderline for a few months now about whether to drop several books now... Ultimate X-Men, New X-Men, Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Thunderbolts and Incredible Hulk. Not for financial reasons I'm doing this but because all these books' writing lately have taken on the aroma of three-day-old road kill.

However, the news of this "new direction" for Thunderbolts has cleared the way for a temporary reprieve.... for Daredevil.

WOO DOGGIES, does this "New Direction" ever suck! I mean, are Joe & Bill just BEGGING me to quit buying this title?

[Dave Cummings]

[quote]Originally posted by DragynWulf:
<strong>

See, your one of the group that likes the concept, the art, and the writer's previous work. Not everyone will. Doesn't make you a person that is "bad" or anything. It just means that Marvel put out enough information in their previews that drew your interested. What you do with that interest is up to you. You might pick it up and try it or you might not and only want to go on a defending spree of a new title that you have no interest in yourself just to try and make others look bad (again I said "might").</strong><hr></blockquote>

Look, If a person does not want to buy the book, then that is thier perogative. Me, I'll most likely will pick up the first issue to see how it is.

However, if a person does not buy the book or is not planning on even checking it out, then in my opinion, they really have no right to bitch about it. The remarks here are nothing more than people condemning a movie based solely on a teaser trailer or an early production photo.

It is just that I see this time and time again, regardless of the company. If a press release about a new book or relaunch comes out, alot of people here come out of the cracks to spout off remarks they think of as witty as a way to trash the book. In my opinion, it is really not productive at all. A really good example of this was way back when Ultimate Spiderman was first announced. Alot of people were pulling the same crap.

The really funny thing is that after the book actually came out, the very same people who were condemning the book were all over the same messageboards praising it as much as they can.


But, I doubt I am going to change anybody's minds about reserving judgment or not saying anything about things they have not read. I just wanted to say what I wanted to say, that's all.

~Dave

[Mr. Fantastic]

The odds of this being another X-Force sounds slim to none. Let Thunderbolts finish in style, and collect it as one great series!

Justice, like lightning...

[Dan20]

[quote]Originally posted by Dave Cummings:
<strong>

Look, If a person does not want to buy the book, then that is thier perogative. Me, I'll most likely will pick up the first issue to see how it is.

However, if a person does not buy the book or is not planning on even checking it out, then in my opinion, they really have no right to bitch about it. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, don't you think they do if they've been collecting the book and don't like the changes?
Remember, this isn't a new title -- it's the same title, just changed completely.
And while I don't like to judge things before they come out, the basic concept sounds pretty lame and something that would have been more popular when Fight Club actually came out (which was, what, a few years ago already?).

[Hdefined]

Wow, I wonder how many used plot ideas and cliches they can fit into this badboy. I guess they're avoiding the whole relaunch/renaming thing because they don't want the sales to plummet like with Cable/Soldier X. Ha, that new marvel, what a fruity basket

[Peter of Smeg]

Tbolts is off my list. Not because of change but because I have no interest in the new concept. I'm sure people will though. I was one of those who jumped on with X-Force's change. But Marvel have flooded the market with these gimmicks. The X-Force change didn't dramatically change sales and when it went to X-Statistics it's already selling the same numbers as X-Force.Black Panther is another they did where #50 had no relation to the series previously. Again sales didn't budge (in fact it lost 200 sales). I don't even give the new Tbolts a year.

[BarryWeen]

I agree with some of the other posters that since this "new direction" is different enough from the original premise, just restart the title with a new #1. And in keeping with the recent renamings, Thunderbolts should become...The X-Bolts. That should guarentee the sales should soar way up, you've got both a #1 issue and an X in the title. :)

[CylverSaber]

Ignore those who say "Don't prejudge the book." For all the times you were wrong in your initial impression of a comic, how many times were you right? And if it should somehow turn out to be the next hot thing, there will be a TPB, so don't worry about missing out.

Save your money for something that appeals to you. Remember that every cent you spend on crap is a vote for more crap to be produced. So there *is* harm in "giving it a shot."

[Machman]

I loved the Thunderbolts - but this, as everyone seems to agree here, will kill the book. Sorry, but this is $#!t. Marvel had crawled back from Image-lite oblivion & now....now...what? A misguided "new" direction for this title, Fantastic Four devolved into a cute kiddy book (I want my 9 cents back by the way), Wolverine (sorry..words fail me) & a trade dressing that, as the yellow kid said, "both sucks & blows". I fear the worst is yet to come.

[BuckySinister]

This thread's already too long, and dying out on top of that, but I just had to post.

I agree that that the "new direction" should have probably just been a new title. But I can see why Marvel didn't do that. They've had bad luck with new #1s of late, including The Hood, a very good (IMHO) villain book that barely made a blip on the sales charts. So they launch Super-Villain Fight Club as Thunderbolts, a name with built-in recognition that they weren't going to be using anymore anyway. And, of course, the controversy it would cause equals free publicity, as this five-page thread proves.

At any rate. What they're doing with Thunderbolts is indicative of Marvel's overall strategy: they're trying to put out books that will have legs well past the regular monthly title, and well past the comics shops. They got the idea from DC's Vertigo line, which doesn't sell all that well in the comics shops but which moves fairly briskly in trade form in the bookstore market due to its wider range of topics and more adult subject matter.

Marvel's applying that strategy to their whole line. Except that they figure they can do bigger numbers by offering diverse material on titles and characters that have bigger name recognition. So if a title doesn't look like it'll sell to the mainstream market (that is to say, the non-comics-reading market) AND its sales have dropped off in the comics shops, they're getting rid of it and replacing it with something else.

Look across their line; Marvel is marketing specific books to specific kinds of readers. Grant Morrison's X-Men is designed to appeal to sci-fi fans. Bruce Jones' Hulk is designed to appeal to fans of horror and suspense. Milligan and Alred's X-Statix is designed to appeal to the indy-rock crowd. Daredevil is designed to appeal to fans of crime fiction. And Avengers, Spider-Man, and FF are designed to appeal to the old school super hero fans.

Does anyone but that last group go to comics shops? Not in great numbers. But, from what I can see in my town, the strategy's working anyway. I know people who haven't read a comic since high school who are picking up Marvel books these days. Marvel trades (again, mostly of these "new direction" books) are slowly but surely edging out the lower-selling Vertigo trades on the Barnes & Noble shelves, too.

It's a new way of marketing comics, but a tried-and-true approach to marketing fiction in general. No major fiction publisher does one genre alone (except maybe Harlequin), so why should Marvel?

Not everything they're releasing works, certainly (the Call of Duty titles, for instance, just don't seem to fire on all cylinders). But I like a lot of what they're doing in the majority of the genres they're tackling, so I'm pretty excited. To my mind, it's a good time to be a comics fan.

[firestorm003]

This is my first post on the newsrama message board, I am a huge Thunderbolts fan and am extremely disapointed to see what Marvel is trying to pass off as a revamp, Thunderbolts is the only book I have ever had a letter published in. I Respected the direction of Kurt Busiek in this title and Fabien continued the tend of excellence and the theme of the book which is REDEMPTION. I don't know if I will continue to read the book or not,over thelast 6 years I have grown accustomed to the characters and the direction of a great book. NICE WAY TO LOSE FANS MARVEL

[Slangword]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>

Well, I think you're missing my point. I don't think that there's any way to justify such low sales. Not many people are buying Thunderbolts, and I shouldn't single that title out, because not many people are buying any comic. No major company likes having to settle for 20,000 or even 100,000 units sold. Millions of movie tickets, DVDs and soundtrack CDs were sold for Spider-Man, all of which cost more than a single comic, yet the Spidey titles still sell under 100,000. Marvel wants to tap into a larger audience, and I believe that Thunderbolts as it currently exists has shown that it cannot do that. I don't think any amount of promotion is going to improve sales on Thunderbolts in a significant amount. Will the revamped title burn up the charts? Probably not, even thought it probably will outsell the current title. But it seems to have a little more mass appeal than the current Thunderbolts. There's at least a larger potential audience for the new book, while the current one has shown that it appeals mostly to a pretty narrow section of the public.</strong><hr></blockquote>

With all due respect, I think some people here are missing the point of those of us "complaining" -- I don't mind whatsoever that Marvel has decided to publish the new series by John Arcudi - I mind that they are publishing it under the name of an existing series that has virtually nothing in common with it. Let the new series stand on its own, and give it a number 1.

The more I hear about this, the more I think it is just Marvel Management jerking around existing customers because Marvel Management doesn't understand that people could actually enjoy the Marvel characters.

--Scott

[ManifestFury]

"How is this any different than DC's H.E.R.O. comic coming out later, or their revamp of Starman or the JSA. Taking an old concept that wasn't selling and trying to find a market and have it be a best selling title isn't a new idea."

Egads, this is different because none of those books worked at all... or they were gone for so long that a "brand new" idea, which started with a #1 issue, could be accepted or denied by the readership as they pleased.

T-bolts isn't doing that. They're taking all the hard work of the original writers and artists and chucking it out the window. As of issue #76 NOTHING that we've come to love about the T-bolts will be there. NOTHING. That just plain sucks.

I'm all for new takes on old ideas. I'm a diehard Starman and JSA fan. Those were done with an eye towards the past and a foot in today. Jack was the son of the original and later dated the sister of the 2nd. The JSA uses characters from the original JSA and their children from Infinity Inc. from the 80s.

Change is good. Change for the sake of change is bad. I wish all the best for the new crew on T-bolts but I warn them that they may lose more people than they win by keeping the name...

[DragynWulf]

[quote]Originally posted by Dave Cummings:
<strong>

Look, If a person does not want to buy the book, then that is thier perogative. Me, I'll most likely will pick up the first issue to see how it is.

However, if a person does not buy the book or is not planning on even checking it out, then in my opinion, they really have no right to bitch about it. The remarks here are nothing more than people condemning a movie based solely on a teaser trailer or an early production photo.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I believe those that are "bitching" about it have checked it out just as much as you have. You have made your choise to pick it up based on what the previews have shown. Those that are talking abd about it have done the opposite. That does not make you any better because your praising it by saying "Check it out first" when Marvel released enough information for readers to decide if they want to check it out and judge what they have seen of it so far. As I mentioned above. That is what previews are for. So people can make a judgement on if they want to read it or not.

[quote]<strong>It is just that I see this time and time again, regardless of the company. If a press release about a new book or relaunch comes out, alot of people here come out of the cracks to spout off remarks they think of as witty as a way to trash the book. In my opinion, it is really not productive at all. A really good example of this was way back when Ultimate Spiderman was first announced. Alot of people were pulling the same crap. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I never liked the idea of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN and I still don't. What Quesada did in order to get that title popular is the samething he is doing with this title. He is letting the original title die off as much as possible and then will promote his new idea to make him look better. He did this with AMAZING SPIDER-MAN when he knew it needed fixing and fans wanted it fixed. So he gave the fans what he wanted in his new series, waited a little bit until they liked it, and then fixed the regular title. This drew fans towards ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN and it made it big that way. With THUNDERBOLTS he refused to promote it and did whatever he could to let it die down. With the promotion it will now be getting, the sales will increase (because more people will know about it) and he will look good for "saving a title" again.

[quote]<strong> The really funny thing is that after the book actually came out, the very same people who were condemning the book were all over the same messageboards praising it as much as they can.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not me. Never have and never will.


[quote]<strong>But, I doubt I am going to change anybody's minds about reserving judgment or not saying anything about things they have not read. I just wanted to say what I wanted to say, that's all.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But you passed judgement yourself. Does that make you any better just because you liked it while others didn't?

[Roast Beef]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr. Fantastic:
<strong>
Justice, like lightning...</strong><hr></blockquote>

...is the main cause of forest fires?

[swol]

Prediction#1: Thunderbolts canceled by issue 85.

Prediction#2: I'm gone long before that.

[Fanboyimus Prime]

I like the Thunderbolts because of the characters..which are nowhere to be seen in the promos. Will the new characters try to find redemption? No.

There's change and then there's "Who are these guys? What happened to the old cast?" Didn't bother when this happened in X-Force since the Counter-X stuff drove me away. Thunderbolts the writing is great and suddenly a new group with totaly different goals takes over. Perhaps it would have been better if it got its own title and didn't try to use the coattails of the Thunderbolts, then again perhaps it would still be bad.

Next topic: the Hulk as a horror and suspense title..doesn't Marvel have plenty of characters that would have fit that better than the Hulk? Such as Dr. Strange, Morbius(hey what happened to him?), Ghost Rider,Blade and Hannibal King. Or bring back the Strange Tales or Tales to Astonish ,etc for that sort of stuff.

X-Men as science fiction..hey wouldn't the Fantastic Four have been better choice?

The Marvel Knights..well the first volume was pretty good(and had that street level feel..and a Defenderish feel).

My thoughts on Wolverine are anyone could write it and it would sell the same.

Farewell Thunderbolts..may you return someday soon.

[Aaron]

I think the success of X-Force was lightning in a bottle; it was a gamble that paid off, but it's unlikely to happen again.

The reason I say that is because I fear that having this new direction pick up with #76 does nothing except stir up bad feelings for everyone. It angers people who like the "real" Thunderbolts because it almost says "well, the book's not doing bad enough to be cancelled, but there's nothing to justify the existing concept continuing."

But it also hurts the new book. If this were a fresh book, with a new #1, it would stand or fail on its own merits. But Marvel is clearly using the controversy of a "new direction" to give a spotlight to a book that would probably not get much attention otherwise. Pretty smart from a marketing perspective, but pretty crappy from a customer service perspective.

I have no problem with the relaunch, because, like others, I just look at it as the "real" Thunderbolts has been cancelled. It had a good run and I'm grateful to Busiek and Nicieza for providing us with a hell of a classic superhero book. But, it's clear that's not what New Marvel is. *shrug* That's cool. It's less money I give to them, but they're a business, so they gotta do what they gotta do. It's a bit like rearraning the deck chairs on the Titanic to me, because they're good at creating controversy and flash, but rarely do the concepts last the long haul. Remember when Thunderbolts #1 was the hottest thing going? It wasn't that long ago.

Aaron

[Adam Hardy]

Well, damn. I think I understand why Marvel is doing this - to at least create reader consciousness that this new direction/creative team is out there - but I'm going to treat THUNDERBOLTS #76 like issue number one of any other comic, meaning I'll read reviews and maybe pick up #76-79 if the reviews are solidly consistent. Personally, the premise doesn't sound interesting enough for me to want to pick it up based on this preview alone.

This IS a slap in the face to current THUNDERBOLTS readers. I'm not sure what Marvel feels they'll be gaining from that aspect of it.

That said, I feel Nicieza - a writer I usually like - has handled THUNDERBOLTS poorly. It all starts on the first page - Marvel books now all have a page of recap, and the recapping for THUNDERBOLTS has been pathetic. Lots and lots of wasted space, very little explanation of the long, complex plotting of the book. Whoever's responsible should be ashamed. As it is, it's just a waste of a page.

Furthermore, while I like Nicieza's dialogue and that he handles complex ideas, he's got a bad tendency to throw too many characters and too much backstory *previously unrelated to the book* at the readers. A book referencing its own past continuity is one thing, but THUNDERBOLTS, since Nicieza took it over, has had too many moments of wallowing in his past projects, from NOMAD to THE YOUNG ALLIES. Doubling the frequency of the issues doesn't help when you keep expanding and expanding and expanding your cast. The book lost focus and lost solid, stand-alone, character-driven stories. Some of the plot twists have also been a little too random and twisty, like the new male/female Atlas. Way to lose the character concept!

I hope we get a good, solid resolution and sendoff for the series' characters, but I kinda doubt it. Not enough time, and there's just too damned much to resolve. Maybe now Hawkeye and Songbird can run off and join the Avengers.

You know, I take back what I said earlier. I don't understand what Marvel is thinking. Why saddle this new creative team with the animosity of pissed-off current THUNDERBOLTS readers?

[wraith]

I find it funny, that people (who suport the new t-bolt direction) keep saying how much sales improved on x-force/x-statics when it was revamped. Especialy since x-force (before it's cancelation) and x-staics sales are about the same (or lower) before the revamp.

[Reaper]

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
<strong>It seems that the only people complaining are those who have been reading pretty much just mainstream books from the big two their entire lives. Now that's sad.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How do you make a judgment like this? You're out of line. Keeping the Thunderbolts name while gutting the original concept pisses me off and I am not just a reader of mainstream books though I have always been a big fan of Marvel characters. I’ve always enjoyed a well-made independent title though and buy several regularly. Are you perhaps one of those pollyannas who thinks that superhero books will be the death of the industry? Well guess what? If it weren’t for superheroes, there wouldn’t be a comic book industry.

Keep your insults and your asinine judgments to yourself.

-Tim

[Dave Cummings]

I am not going to bother arguing. I have not made judgment for the book myself. I am optimistic about it, but I have not said that I liked it or disliked it. No, I said I am interested because I have dug the prior works of the creators involved.

But, screw it, it is like talking to a goddamn brick wall.

However, I am going to add some parting words on this matter.

These words are not mine, this was in a column by Warren Ellis in regards to the usenet fanboys griping about the same thing when Ultimate Spiderman was announced.

And here it goes;

[quote]These are the enemy. These are the people who like the comics culture just the way it is; stunted, marginalised, dying in the dark. These are the people who don't want art from their comics. These are people who can barely stand intelligent entertainment from their comics -


"We're losing the characters we've come to know and love. I'd rather read junk about characters I know and love than well-written stories about characters I do not care about."
-- and there's a hundred thousand of the bastards. They are the dominating population. And here is their voice;


"I'm pretty good at determining what I like and don't like, even before I see it, read it, listen to it, etc. I can probably count on one hand the number of times my gut instinct has been wrong..."
Understand that Jemas is talking about saving comics. I might not agree with his ideas, and I remain aware that he's really talking about saving comics for Marvel - and the last time Marvel tried a stunt of this ilk they ended up concentrating all the financial power in the industry into Diamond's hands - but at root he's talking about obtaining a new audience and pushing new people with wallets into the comics store environment. Which is precisely what I've been banging on about here.

And the online conversation - which is to say, the only broad-based, massively multiparty conversation possible at this juncture - is led by people terrified that their fantasy life-surrogate is somehow going to be subtracted from their lives by the agency of people who haven't read comics before trying the medium out for the first time.


"It is my purely subjective opinion, hence it cannot be wrong."
Some people talked about leaving the medium if the X-Books family was truncated or deleted. One comment following these statements of intent was:


"Neither of you will be alone, but because we would do this I don't think Marvel would cancel our books."
Our books. Our medium.

When someone explained that these books would initially be written by the excellent Brian Michael Bendis, a popular writer whose profile is quite high right now, the reaction can be typified by the following post, made in all sincerity:


"Wasn't he the actor who starred in Dream On on HBO a few years back. I think he's married to Madeline Stowe."
And, when someone suggested that this newsgroup isn't an accurate representation of the comic-buying public to begin with, someone else made the truly chilling suggestion that:


"Yes, this has been said, but a part of me thinks it is somewhat of an accurate representation. There aren't many comic-buying people to begin with. We may be the majority of what's left..."
Think about that. The one ray of hope here is that Internet opinion has historically not represented the groundswell of audience opinion. In a broad generalisation, the Net-capable has tended to split between the "Spawn fukkin rools" group and what Mark Waid called "the forty-year-olds on Compuserve." The fresh produce of the American education system and ageing conservatives, basically. But the actual buying audience is shrinking. And the number of people with Internet access is climbing massively.

So what if these people are the majority of the remaining readership?


"I'd rather read junk about characters I know and love than well-written stories about characters I do not care about."
This is why my sermons occasionally become hate rants. Because I've seen this kind of person up close. And there are more of them than you think. And make no mistake, they are the enemy. They are the people who like things just the way they are. They want comics to remain defined by sick little family-surrogates with spandex fetishes. To them, this is all the medium needs to be, and anyone who says otherwise is evil and to be shunned. Comics must remain the small world that they hide within.

And if you don't act, they win.

<hr></blockquote>

[Taylor Porter]

I'm not the guy's biggest fan, but I agree with that Warren Ellis column 100 percent. I'm not always too nuts about his work, and I read most of Come In Alone more because of the style than the content, but I think he hit the nail on the head here. I think a lot of us here have very twisted ideas on the way thing should be, and I'm glad Ellis was able to point that out so accurately and sylishly.

[Slangword]

Someone quoted Warren Ellis, who wrote, well you can read most of it above, so I'm going to snip quite a bit:

<strong>These are the enemy. These are the people who like the comics culture just the way it is; stunted, marginalised, dying in the dark. These are the people who don't want art from their comics. These are people who can barely stand intelligent entertainment from their comics -


"We're losing the characters we've come to know and love. I'd rather read junk about characters I know and love than well-written stories about characters I do not care about."
</strong>

I wish he had said something about those who would rather read well-written stories about characters they know and love. And yes, I can understand why someone would rather read about the Spider-Man that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created than one that has jettisoned their development of the character and credits the Current Marvel president as "inspiration". Similarly, I'd rather read about the group of criminals seeking redemption that Kurt Busiek and Fabian Nicieza have written about than what I've been told about the new direction. That doesn't mean I'm not going to pick up Peter Kuper's work, or Chris Ware's or even Warren Ellis' or John Arcudi's on some other project.

--Scott

[littlewolvie]

Thank you Marvel, thanks Joe, thanks for cutting down my comic budget. Another comic I used to love which I can now cancel without feeling bad about. Does the new Marvel not rock? They certainly manage to do amazing things. They even managed to disgust this 20-year long Marvel Zombie and turn him into a Marvel hater. I never thought that day would ever come. Truly amazing... But hey, it's good for my budget. I can always spend the money on some Marvel back issues from the good days or who knows, on a title from the Distinguished Competition. :mad:

[quote]Originally posted by littlewolvie:
<strong>Thank you Marvel, thanks Joe, thanks for cutting down my comic budget. Another comic I used to love which I can now cancel without feeling bad about. Does the new Marvel not rock? They certainly manage to do amazing things. They even managed to disgust this 20-year long Marvel Zombie and turn him into a Marvel hater. I never thought that day would ever come. Truly amazing... But hey, it's good for my budget. I can always spend the money on some Marvel back issues from the good days or who knows, on a title from the Distinguished Competition. :mad: </strong><hr></blockquote>

I prefer the DC way.

They cancel a series and launch another one, instead of replacing an existing concept with a new one that doesn't last.

[John Jakala]

While I know it's not exactly what fans of the current T-BOLTS series want, may I suggest that those readers who are unhappy with the book's sudden shift in direction check out POWER COMPANY? I know there are obvious differences between the two books (the biggest being that they are published by different companies), but I think there are enough similarities to entice old-school THUNDERBOLTS fans:
Both series created by fan-favorite writer Kurt Busiek Both books feature a twist on the standard superhero team Both books set in comic book universe with a rich history to reference Both books have a sense of "anything could happen" Both books have featured costumed archers that check in on the teamI myself was a bit of a latecomer to POWER COMPANY, but I quickly came to love it, and one of the things I thought was, "This reminds me a lot of Busiek's THUNDERBOLTS." I'd strongly recommend that people who enjoyed Busiek's run on THUNDERBOLTS check out PCo - I really think you'll enjoy it. And I came into it at issue #8 and didn't feel lost, so don't worry about not having been there since #1.

I'd especially recommend this book to anyone who gripes that Marvel is disregarding continuity these days: Kurt is doing a wonderful job of drawing from DC's history to tell these stories, but he does so in a way that doesn't distract from the story itself (my own knowledge of DC continuity & history is pretty shaky, but I still enjoy going online after reading PCo and discovering <a href="http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/files/Forum25/HTML/000467.html" target="_blank">just how much DCU detail Kurt can pack into a single comic</a>). If you want continuity in your comics, support a comic that respects and utilizes continuity!!! PCo could certainly use the readers!

[egads]

[quote]Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
<strong>

I prefer the DC way.

They cancel a series and launch another one, instead of replacing an existing concept with a new one that doesn't last.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And then the cancel and relaunch, cancel and then relaunch, cancel and relaunch......How many times is this now that Titans have been done? Outsiders? Aquaman? Geez, gimme a break. Anything DC does is praised to the fullest, everything that Marvel does is damned before it even has a chance to breath.

How come noone is complaining about DC's launch of the Vertigo title Losers? It's based on the WW2 comic and I don't see the names Gunner, Sarge, Johnny Cloud, or Captain Storm mentioned. Is the dog in there either? Where's the uproar there? Same title, different characters and different premise....Oh I forgot, it's a DC book.

I agree with Warren Ellis mentioned. It seems that the die-hard fan boys want their status quo to always remain there. They are afraid to grow up so they don't want the characters to grow up. It's like they want the titles to continue to sell low amounts so that they can have the illusion that they know something others don't and are part of an exclusive club. It's like those people who listen to alternative music and once the band makes it big, they stop listening to them and call them sellouts. It's like obscurity = intelligence.
If they are running the industry, I am glad I stopped seriously reading comics four years ago.

[Boink182]

egads,

I think you're thinking too hard about this lol.

Tbolts, Titans, Outsiders, etc have long-time fans who are loyal to the characters and concepts. I bet they wished those titles did sell better because they enjoyed them and wanted to see them continue.

Also, DC gets their share of criticism.

Young Justice fans are just as upset about Teen Titans taking over as Tbolts fans are upset about the new direction.

Btw, you don't have to worry about them. If Warren Ellis has named them the enemy, the enemy is losing and losing bad. In the end, the almighty dollar will swing the comic industry towards where it needs to go, not the wishes of these fans.

However, these fans--the enemy--are just mourning over yet another loss. Dude, you're winning. Let the enemy cry.

[Boink182]

Lol, on second though, I'm not sure who is winning.

I think Warren Ellis would like to see things like his projects do better in the market. However, the likes of his Vertigo and Wildstorm stuff just isn't supported by fandom unless there is some spandex that occampanys it, or at least some super powers...

However, comics resembling the golden days of traditional Marvel and DC are dieing. Anything noted as fun or funny is dieing. Comics are becoming increasingly more about violence, sex, and whatever you may find popular on TV. Except fans just want all of this for their traditional super-hero, not in any other form. For fans of traditional super-heroes and especially fans of the second-string (in terms of popularity) heroes, they're finding a smaller and smaller pool of comics to enjoy.

[Ned Leeds Jr.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by egads:
[QB]

And then the cancel and relaunch, cancel and then relaunch, cancel and relaunch......How many times is this now that Titans have been done? Outsiders? Aquaman? Geez, gimme a break. Anything DC does is praised to the fullest, everything that Marvel does is damned before it even has a chance to breath.

Possibly because DC is more savvy than Marvel and does not blatantly insult, antaganize, belittle or dismiss its customers and retailers every time that they bring up a concern?

Ned

[Slangword]

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>


How come noone is complaining about DC's launch of the Vertigo title Losers? It's based on the WW2 comic and I don't see the names Gunner, Sarge, Johnny Cloud, or Captain Storm mentioned. Is the dog in there either? Where's the uproar there? Same title, different characters and different premise....Oh I forgot, it's a DC book.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The difference is that the last time the Losers had their own book was about 16 years before the new version came out, not 30 days.

Another difference, in my case, at least, is that I care more about the Thunderbolts than I do the Losers. Marvel had been publishing a comic book I enjoyed, but now they are using the title for something very different.

I think that trying to look at this as a Marvel/DC issue loses the point that I (and many others) want to continue to read Thunderbolts. It has nothing to do with any company that does not publish Thunderbolts. Marvel has published the Busiek/Nicieza/Brevoort version of the Thunderbolts, and I applaud them for that. Marvel will soon drop that version, and I admonish them for that. DC, Crossgen, Dark Horse, Aardvark-Vanaheim, Archie, and Viz and whatever they do have nothing to do with it.

--Scott

[egads]

[quote]Originally posted by Slangword:
<strong>

The difference is that the last time the Losers had their own book was about 16 years before the new version came out, not 30 days.

Another difference, in my case, at least, is that I care more about the Thunderbolts than I do the Losers. Marvel had been publishing a comic book I enjoyed, but now they are using the title for something very different.

I think that trying to look at this as a Marvel/DC issue loses the point that I (and many others) want to continue to read Thunderbolts. It has nothing to do with any company that does not publish Thunderbolts. Marvel has published the Busiek/Nicieza/Brevoort version of the Thunderbolts, and I applaud them for that. Marvel will soon drop that version, and I admonish them for that. DC, Crossgen, Dark Horse, Aardvark-Vanaheim, Archie, and Viz and whatever they do have nothing to do with it.

--Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>

What about DC cancelling Young Justice? Oh, I forgot, it's DC.

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>

And then the cancel and relaunch, cancel and then relaunch, cancel and relaunch......How many times is this now that Titans have been done? Outsiders? Aquaman? Geez, gimme a break. Anything DC does is praised to the fullest, everything that Marvel does is damned before it even has a chance to breath.

How come noone is complaining about DC's launch of the Vertigo title Losers? It's based on the WW2 comic and I don't see the names Gunner, Sarge, Johnny Cloud, or Captain Storm mentioned. Is the dog in there either? Where's the uproar there? Same title, different characters and different premise....Oh I forgot, it's a DC book.

I agree with Warren Ellis mentioned. It seems that the die-hard fan boys want their status quo to always remain there. They are afraid to grow up so they don't want the characters to grow up. It's like they want the titles to continue to sell low amounts so that they can have the illusion that they know something others don't and are part of an exclusive club. It's like those people who listen to alternative music and once the band makes it big, they stop listening to them and call them sellouts. It's like obscurity = intelligence.
If they are running the industry, I am glad I stopped seriously reading comics four years ago.</strong><hr></blockquote>


That Warren Ellis quote was so on the money. I never realized who my comic reading peers were until I discovered these message boards. It's really disturbing. I've never seen an industry's fans be SO elitist about its craft, like they don't WANT it to be discovered.

My guess is that since so many of them were marginalized by "cool people" when they were younger and were outsiders. They feel pride that they have something that those "cool people" can't get. The thought of those cool, hip, non-geeks now reading "their" books angers them. They feel the general non-comic reading public has never respected them, so they don't respect them in turn. That's why anything that attempts to appeal to this general public terrifies them.

I've noticed a trend about the pro-change people and the rabid fanboys. The pro-change people have a healthier range of interests than the rabid fanboys. If the rabid fanboy reads a novel, it tends to be Sci-fi, fantasy, or comic related. If he watches TV: Fantasy, sci-fi, or comics related. Movies: the same. Plays card or board games? Chances are they're role playing games. They don't want comics written by someone drawing on a wide range of experiences because they themselves don't have a wide range of experiences and interests to draw from THEMSELVES.

They want what I call "third generation" comics: comics written by fanboys who also grew up reading comics written by fanboys. It's like making a xerox from a xerox of a photograph. With each copy the quality fades until you just end up with a poor facsimile of the original photograph. It's painfully obvious that ppl like Busiek primarily learned to write from reading comics by Roy Thomas, who is himself a huge fanboy. I personally have no need to read such stories when there are scores of trade paperbacks if I want to read campy 60s style dialogue. I'm not going to spend $3 a pop for it at this age. I hope all these cam

You guys can deal with the fact that Thunderbolts is cancelled, but you just don't want another book to carry it's name? What difference does that make? Either way you get no new issues of the team you love, so just pretend the book is cancelled...

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>

What about DC cancelling Young Justice? Oh, I forgot, it's DC.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Plus, the fans aren't mad because DC's replacing Young Justice, a recycled concept, with an even MORE cliched, self-referential, and continuity-laden concept, which is what DC fans thrive on. They're even bringing back the gaudy yellow Kid Flash costume! In 2000 AND FREAKING '02! I can't believe ppl are actually happy about this, why not just dig up the old Wolfman/Perez issues and save some money?

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by Boink182:
<strong>
I think Warren Ellis would like to see things like his projects do better in the market. However, the likes of his Vertigo and Wildstorm stuff just isn't supported by fandom unless there is some spandex that occampanys it, or at least some super powers... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, but what about those outside "fandom"? You know, the millions and millions of people that aren't comic book fans? Despite the success of the Spider-Man movie, I think the general population has shown that it doesn't like super heroes all that much. Vertigo books usually aren't that high on the charts, but outside of diehard fans, are still usually pretty popular. There's a lot of folks who bought Sandman and Preacher trades (in a "real" bookstore) that probably don't own any other comics.

[quote]Originally posted by Boink182:
<strong> For fans of traditional super-heroes and especially fans of the second-string (in terms of popularity) heroes, they're finding a smaller and smaller pool of comics to enjoy. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, but the reality is that those fans of traditional super-heroes are also becoming a smaller and smaller group. Should there be 100 different super-hero titles for a group of people that number under 100,000?

Sorry if I sound like I'm picking on you; your quotes just made a pretty good springboard for my rant.

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
<strong>
They want what I call "third generation" comics: comics written by fanboys who also grew up reading comics written by fanboys. It's like making a xerox from a xerox of a photograph. With each copy the quality fades until you just end up with a poor facsimile of the original photograph. It's painfully obvious that ppl like Busiek primarily learned to write from reading comics by Roy Thomas, who is himself a huge fanboy. I personally have no need to read such stories when there are scores of trade paperbacks if I want to read campy 60s style dialogue. I'm not going to spend $3 a pop for it at this age.


Plus, the fans aren't mad because DC's replacing Young Justice, a recycled concept, with an even MORE cliched, self-referential, and continuity-laden concept, which is what DC fans thrive on. They're even bringing back the gaudy yellow Kid Flash costume! In 2000 AND FREAKING '02! I can't believe ppl are actually happy about this, why not just dig up the old Wolfman/Perez issues and save some money?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. It's not that I don't like or respect that old stuff, it's just that I don't want to see more of it and have it be called "new." Busiek's Avengers run was okay, but if Marvel had just reprinted old Roy Thomas Avengers, it would have been just as good, and cheaper. If you want to see Raven, just get some old Titans books from the quarter bin. I loved Giffen's run on JLA, but I own all the issues, and that's enough for me, so I'm not all that excited about his new JLA-mini. Thunderbolts had a 75-issue run. That's pretty damn good. That should be plenty to satisfy its fans. Just go re-read your old T-Bolts issues.

[Slangword]

[quote]Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
<strong>


That Warren Ellis quote was so on the money. I never realized who my comic reading peers were until I discovered these message boards. It's really disturbing. I've never seen an industry's fans be SO elitist about its craft, like they don't WANT it to be discovered.

My guess is that since so many of them were marginalized by "cool people" when they were younger and were outsiders. They feel pride that they have something that those "cool people" can't get. The thought of those cool, hip, non-geeks now reading "their" books angers them. They feel the general non-comic reading public has never respected them, so they don't respect them in turn. That's why anything that attempts to appeal to this general public terrifies them.

I've noticed a trend about the pro-change people and the rabid fanboys. The pro-change people have a healthier range of interests than the rabid fanboys. If the rabid fanboy reads a novel, it tends to be Sci-fi, fantasy, or comic related. If he watches TV: Fantasy, sci-fi, or comics related. Movies: the same. Plays card or board games? Chances are they're role playing games. They don't want comics written by someone drawing on a wide range of experiences because they themselves don't have a wide range of experiences and interests to draw from THEMSELVES.

They want what I call "third generation" comics: comics written by fanboys who also grew up reading comics written by fanboys. It's like making a xerox from a xerox of a photograph. With each copy the quality fades until you just end up with a poor facsimile of the original photograph. It's painfully obvious that ppl like Busiek primarily learned to write from reading comics by Roy Thomas, who is himself a huge fanboy. I personally have no need to read such stories when there are scores of trade paperbacks if I want to read campy 60s style dialogue. I'm not going to spend $3 a pop for it at this age. I hope all these cam

You guys can deal with the fact that Thunderbolts is cancelled, but you just don't want another book to carry it's name? What difference does that make? Either way you get no new issues of the team you love, so just pretend the book is cancelled...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure if you would consider me a rabid fanboy or not. I do want to see comics that reflect a wide variety of genres, themes, and topics, but among that I see a place for super-heroes, science-fiction and fantasy.

What leads you to believe that someone wanting a company to publish material that person enjoys is equivalent to wanting no new concepts or readers? I'm perfectly OK with all sorts of stories being told via comics and attracting new readers. I honestly don't understand how Marvel's decision to package a new concept as issue 76 of a previous series, thereby alienating some (not all) current readers accomplishes that, though.

I will admit that my disappointment with Marvel is based on a perception that they are thumbing their noses at readers of the current Thunderbolts series. That may not be logical on my part. However, I can't see the logic in today's market of launching a new concept under the name and number of an existing series. Doesn't it make more sense to offer the new concept as a number 1 issue, particularly if you are trying to interest new readers? If the new approach is going to do better than the existing approach, I'm pretty sure that the first issue of Super-Villain Fight Club would get more sales and more readers than Thunderbolts 76. If it's not going to do any better, why discontinue the existing series in favor of the new approach?

On reflection, I think the real problem here is that we are trying to make sense about decisions made by Marvel Management.

--Scott

[paulski]

[quote]Originally posted by michaelDORAN:
<strong><a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/TBolts076_cvr.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/TBolts076_cvr_t.jpg" width="175" height="254" border="0" alt="THUNDERBOLTS no. 76" ></a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Kinda looks like the cast of Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[Slangword]

[quote]Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
<strong>

Plus, the fans aren't mad because DC's replacing Young Justice, a recycled concept, with an even MORE cliched, self-referential, and continuity-laden concept, which is what DC fans thrive on. They're even bringing back the gaudy yellow Kid Flash costume! In 2000 AND FREAKING '02! I can't believe ppl are actually happy about this, why not just dig up the old Wolfman/Perez issues and save some money?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I believe that some fans of Young Justice are mad about the cancellation. They're just not bringing it up on a thread that's about Thunderbolts. No one's complaining that Art Spiegleman hasn't followed up Maus with a work of equal weight here, either.

As for people wanting continuity-laden stories, why not? How does someone wanting a certain kind of material prevent you from supporting other types of material? Although a company may mainly publish super-hero, science-fiction or fantasy comics, it can publish a wide variety within those genres. The DC super-hero publications alone range from Jack Cole's Plastic Man to Warren Ellis' Authority. The Marvel publications range from Marville to Call of Duty. I agree that diversity is good, but how do you get diversity by saying that something should not be available?


--Scott

[Fanboyimus Prime]

I want a rememberance of the past. I don't want everything shackled to it, but I want them to remember the past.

That is what the Busiek Avengers run was to me as with the Thunderbolts(under Busiek and FabNic). Plus I liked the characters in the Avengers and Thunderbolts.

You who don't want to remember the past remembered are destined to repeat it(like the Ultimate line seems to be doing).

I'm saying to just repeat the past... go forward but don't forget where you have been.

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by Slangword:
<strong>


What leads you to believe that someone wanting a company to publish material that person enjoys is equivalent to wanting no new concepts or readers? I'm perfectly OK with all sorts of stories being told via comics and attracting new readers.

</strong>

I can't speak to you personally friend, since I don't know you. But I surf message boards and I see people who blast different runs of comics for the wrong reasons. For example, on Hulk boards rabid fans bitch and moan because the Hulk is now, as they put it, "a mix between the X-Files and the Hulk TV show." They don't want non-comics concepts "polluting" thier comics. They claim that Bruce Jones is unoriginal for using these ideas, but when I ask them what they'd rather see, it's "Hulk vs. Abomination and the Leader for the 27347th time!" Like THAT'S real original! I think the real problem is not one of originality but one of familiarity. They want familiar, rehashed stories that recycle obscure characters and conventions. I've seen the Hulk fight Abomination a bunch of times, and I know there are tons of "Hulk Smash" stories I haven't read. I can just get trade paperbacks, why have the new material reproducing the same stories as the old material? Why have the X-Men keep rehashing convoluted storylines about Mr. Sinister and Abomination and their long-winded conspiracies? You need an encyclopedia to understand the time-traveling Askani crap and conspiracies to get the Scott Summers gene and other such rot. It's comics about comics that were about comics. Its so far removed from the real world that I think any non-comics fan would feel like a total loser reading them. I might as well move back into my parents' basement and re-virginize myself if I'm gonna read those type of comics at my age. Grant Morrison and Chuck Austen have stories that touch on things going on in the real world rather than just things that happened in the last big crossover and they get blasted on message boards left and right.

So what I'm saying isn't that fanboys don't want new concepts, they just don't want new concepts in their superhero concepts.

<strong>
I honestly don't understand how Marvel's decision to package a new concept as issue 76 of a previous series, thereby alienating some (not all) current readers accomplishes that, though.
</strong>

It's been explained before in this thread, and it actually makes sense. Characters like Captain America and Spidey have built-in fan recognition, the awareness level is high for them. You can re-launch series for them over and over and ppl will at least know who they are. But starting a brand-new comic book that has no previous history is extremely tough in todays market. If Milligan and Allred's X-Force was launched right away as X-Statics, they would probably have a harder time. But by launching them under the X-Force name, they got to keep some of the old X-Force fans while attracting some new readers. When the book took off, then Marvel felt secure enough in the property to give it a brand new #1 with a brand new name. If they just gave it a new name and #1 right away, they may have just gotten the new readers hooked, and not gotten the old X-Force completists who just buy the book out of habit. My bet is that Marvel is ALREADY planning to give this book its own title and numbering, and this is just an attempt to give it an extra sales cushion of a couple of thousand Thunderbolts completists. Every little bit helps.

[/QB]

<strong>
On reflection, I think the real problem here is that we are trying to make sense about decisions made by Marvel Management.

--Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>

On reflection, I think the real problem here is that we are refusing to consider that the old way of doing things is running the industry into the ground.

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by Slangword:
<strong>

I believe that some fans of Young Justice are mad about the cancellation. They're just not bringing it up on a thread that's about Thunderbolts.

--Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>

Trust me, they're not bringing it up much on the Young Justice thread either. They're too busy having a party in their pants over the return of the gaudy yellow Kid Flash costume. The ONLY good progressve thing I noticed about the news, which was Superboys first cool-looking costume, is getting bashed though.

[Boink182]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
Yeah, but what about those outside "fandom"? You know, the millions and millions of people that aren't comic book fans? Despite the success of the Spider-Man movie, I think the general population has shown that it doesn't like super heroes all that much. Vertigo books usually aren't that high on the charts, but outside of diehard fans, are still usually pretty popular. There's a lot of folks who bought Sandman and Preacher trades (in a "real" bookstore) that probably don't own any other comics.<hr></blockquote>

This is true. Vertigo titles continue to be published because they can sell at a Barnes & Noble. However, the majority of fandom that goes to a comic store and the majority who apparently post replies here...they mostly want their super-heroes.

Here is a complaint about DC Titans on a Thunderbolts thread, witch critisizes DC for its rehashing of old ideas. While DC does this, they also have many comics and totally different lines with different formats and different genres...Yet the debate is Marvel innovation versus DC lack-of-innovation? Why? Because we're talking about the most traditional and successful comic genre: superheroes!

There is a quickness to complain of DC's lack of boldness, on a thread about Thunderbolts, witch even has Ellis quoted. Yet...did we all miss the announcement of more Ellis projects in different formats about different genres?

And we believe traditional-super-hero-fare doesn't have appeal to the mainstream? The Spiderman Movie was something small compared to those who buy Vertigo books from Barnes & Noble? I believe the problem is moreso the $3 for a comic that has 4 panels a page that can only be found a minimum of 40 miles away from your place of living...

[quote]Yeah, but the reality is that those fans of traditional super-heroes are also becoming a smaller and smaller group. Should there be 100 different super-hero titles for a group of people that number under 100,000?<hr></blockquote>

Yes, that group is becoming smaller. Such a shame. However, it's that group keeping comic-book stores alive. If every book was like an indy comic or Vertigo book, would even that 100,000 go to a comic-book store anymore? I doubt it. Would new fans? Judging from retailer orders, they don't think so...

I'm not saying change is bad, but I don't think all these comic fans are actually as bold as they seem to think. My goodness, we always keep going back to debating about the Big 2 and their super-hero comics. Boo hoo, Teen Titans and Thunderbolts fans...Geez, just buy Global Frequency and 100 Bullets. If you guys want the industry to be more progressive, stop whining about super-hero comics and starting promoting Vertigo, Oni, other indy companies...whatever...

[quote]Sorry if I sound like I'm picking on you; your quotes just made a pretty good springboard for my rant.<hr></blockquote>

No problem. Just a suggestion though, quoting somebody to start a rant usually just ends up being a 1v1 flamewar. Rants beginning without a quote, I think, would reach a larger audience :D .

[Boink182]

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
What about DC cancelling Young Justice? Oh, I forgot, it's DC. <hr></blockquote>

Dude, YJ fans are pissed. Big time. They hate that YJ is being cancelled so that 20-year-old characters can make a comeback.

[Boink182]

[quote]Originally posted by World's Famous J. Triangles:
Plus, the fans aren't mad because DC's replacing Young Justice, a recycled concept, with an even MORE cliched, self-referential, and continuity-laden concept, which is what DC fans thrive on. They're even bringing back the gaudy yellow Kid Flash costume! In 2000 AND FREAKING '02! I can't believe ppl are actually happy about this, why not just dig up the old Wolfman/Perez issues and save some money?<hr></blockquote>

However, YJ fans are mad. They actually had a book with characters who were growing. PAD had several blank slates that he was developing, and had been doing a good job in the last 4 years. Maybe the ideas seem all recycled to you, but it actually made some fans smile and laugh. Is that such a bane to comicdom? This title actually even drew in some new, young, readers.

Friends is a sitcom that uses jokes and sit-com situations that had been old-and-recycled since the early 80s. Yet, it still brings a smile to faces of a new generation. Maybe it something so different as 24, but at least some people will appreciate it.

[quote]Trust me, they're not bringing it up much on the Young Justice thread either. They're too busy having a party in their pants over the return of the gaudy yellow Kid Flash costume. The ONLY good progressve thing I noticed about the news, which was Superboys first cool-looking costume, is getting bashed though.<hr></blockquote>

Well, YJ fans are really mad on the YJ board at the DCMBs.

Furthermore, yeah, some people like old heroes, concept, villains, and even costumes. So what? Without them, you'd see DC and Marvel fall even faster. Furthermore, Marvel, in their movies and the Ultimates, seem to be finding success with these old heroes and old storylines. Yes, there's a nice new moder twist to things, but it's really the same-old in new masks...

When I found super-heroes to be too same-old, and too boring, I turned to books and television for something different. Yes, movies, books, and televison can provide something tha comics don't, and it's for free! When I return to comics, I think, yeah, comics should be more progressive. Look how well manga and its different genres and formats sell in Japan. Then I see some brand-new direction for super-hero comics, without powers, costumes, action, or anything that can be labeled super...and I think..."Geez, I watch this stuff on TV, but it's a billion times better there, and it's cheaper too..."

I think that's where a lot of comic-fans have gone. They've outgrown their super-heroes and moved on to television. However, will Global Frequency bring them back? Free TV versus a 40 mile drive to a comic book store to pick up a $3 comic that takes 5 minutes to read...hmmm...

[Boink182]

And to all the Mr.s I'm-so-progressive-I-can-change-the-face-of-the-comic-industry-with-my-rants...

Thunderbolts and Young Justice were effectively cancelled last week. Fans are upset. They aren't trying to ruin the comics industry by keeping it in its static state. Maybe they are doing this as you guys and Mr. Ellis believe. However, all they're really upset about is the loss of comic books that they enjoy reading. Can you guys understand this?

They don't have some dumb agenda to keep Marvel and DC from progressing. They're just upset that their favorite reads are cancelled and they're lashing out at Marvel and DC for doing such a thing. Yes, if they continue to harp about it 2 years from now, please yell at them to shut-up and get over it. However, at the moment, they're just mourning the loss of what they enjoyed, and they have the right to do so.

Here's an analogy...

The A-Team was just cancelled and replaced by The Sopranos or Fight Club or whatever.

Malcolm in the Middle or Seinfeld was just cancelled and replaced by Sex in the City or Arlis.

If you were a fan of the old programs, you'd be upset too, right? Eventually, you may grow to like what's new, but at least now...let them cry all they want...

[Absalom]

I just read the article... and it's sad for people who loved this book, like me. I enjoyed the Thunderbolts, it was one of the few titles I really enjoyed since years now, month after month.
The characters were cool and well written and drawn, Bagley who was regular as ever on this title was a bomb on it, and Batista too now. Busiek then Nicieza played with kind of limbos characters or second rank characters and they made them interesting. That was a real challenge and they succeed on it.

I really liked this title, from the writers to the pencilers, to the characters and else. And now this is completely replaced by a new title, which keep for instance the title (just to keep some fans on it, like Marvel played for X-Force). A new book which seems to have nothing to do with the original, except the title... The vision is different, the characters are different, the authors are different. Nothing from the title I loved.

So, will I pick up this new book ? No. Thunderbolts was on my list 'cause of the characters at first, 'cause of the creative teams, they're gone. For good. Why would I buy this "new" Thunderbolts book.. ? For nothing. I'll keep some money for another title, like the Power Company, where Busiek seems to played on.
But, it's hard to lose titles like that. You collect a series, you use to like the characters, the stories, and then, in an instant, everything is blowing away for a new direction, which has nothing to do with the core-concept. (And don't tell me about this "Fight Club style", this book will have nothing to do with this book/movie after what I read in this article).
First, X-Force, then Deadpool, then Cable, X-Man, Black Panther, Generation-X,... now Thunderbolts. Titles I love disappear month after month... so I presume next will be Avengers or FF.... :(

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by egads:
<strong>What about DC cancelling Young Justice? Oh, I forgot, it's DC.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...You need to genericize this and make it your .sig.

"What about _____? Oh, I forgot, it's a DC book."

Marvel zombies. Bah.

[Jeremy Williams]

Posted by Duffus:

Marvel zombies.

I`m sorry but that doesn`t exist anymore. Now the separation is between those who want changes and those continuity traditionalists fanboys. All the Marvel Zombies liked the traditionals super-hero stories and it`s almost non-existant anymore at Marvel(with a few exceptions). Those guys crossed over to DC.

Now into umm *snicker* more serious issues :cool: ...for the first time i may have to agree with Warren Ellis. I didn`t know we share the view in the matter, but yep we know who the enemies are. Although i will say, Ellis take the internet community way too seriously. I know he used it to promote his stuff, but it`s a small portion of the people that actualy buy the comics.

[egads]

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>

...You need to genericize this and make it your .sig.

"What about _____? Oh, I forgot, it's a DC book."

Marvel zombies. Bah.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, I have thought about that....

Actually, you are quite incorrect in labelling me as a Marvel Zombie. If you have read any of my previous threads, you would notice that I have mentioned numerous times that I in fact enjoy many of DC's comics, and the company in general. It's those who only see Marvel=bad DC=good I have a problem with. Comic fans who just enjoy comics for the sake of them being comics, regardless of who made them, have no beef with me. People who come up here and slam Marvel time after time, than praise DC for doing the exact same thing, well you can say I have a herd of cows with.

I am not going to accuse you of being a aDiCt, I just wanted to clear that up with you. Ask sometime, and I might surprise you with what I know about the DC universe.

[J A]

Well, I for one think the Power Company is a great read. It has a lot of dynamic personalities all thrown into a corporate group. I am aware that DC is a bit heavy with the Axe at the moment, but it has given Kurt a second chance at gaining an audience. I don't think DC is in a rush to cancel the PC. But as I said before this book is a very good read.

If you are interested in picking up a title, why not try Power Company #8 & #9. This is where Kurt turns up the heat a bit. The characters do take a bit of time to get to know (the majority of them are Kurts creations) but it is worth the time.

[the4thpip]

To me, both Kurt's Thunderbolts and his Powercompany embody the best in superhero comics:
Colorful, original characters. Continuity not as a weight pulling the title down, but as a foundation that it is built on. Respect to what came before. Drama. Fun. Nudity.
(ok, so I made up nudity. But I'd really like to see Power Company in the top 20.)

[Gary Chamberlain]

Let me add my voice to those of us who will sorely miss the THUNDERBOLTS that Busiek and Nicieza have brought to life, but would like to recommend Busiek's POWER COMPANY as an alternative.

Boosting this DC book while the new alledged "THUNDERBOLTS'" sales decrease would be a great message to send to Marvel and it's increasing desire to alienate longtime fans.

POWER COMPANY has that familiar THUNDERBOLT feel to it and will be a wonderful read. Issues #8 and #9 are a great starting off point and issue #10 will be out next week. If you haven't already, please give it a try.

[John Osen]

quote:
AnthonyL, the word is whether. Weather is what you go outside in without an umbrella.

Dear god no! Not my spelling!!!

Spelling the word "weather" correctly when you meant to write "whether" is not a spelling error. You simply didn't know the difference between two words with completely different meanings. Now's the part where you respond "Get a life, Pointdexter" like you did with Blues Brother. Let the flaming begin.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
<strong>I might as well move back into my parents' basement and re-virginize myself if I'm gonna read those type of comics at my age...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think I am having a crush on J. Triangles.

Great posts, J!

- Elayne

[Doc Rebel]

:( What an utterly terrible, terrible, terrible idea this 'new' direction for THUNDERBOLTS. Why does Marvel hate it's superhero-fans so much these days? :( Killing fine titles like X-FORCE, INCREDIBLE HULK, DAREDEVIL and CAPTAIN AMERICA, making them into abominations I will never like! :(
I've never missed an issue of THUNDERBOLTS thus far, but as far as I'm concerned I consider this title canceled! :(

[Psivage]

Does anyone know any name of the new Thunderbolts? I know Armadillo is one.

[Jeremy Williams]

Posted by Elayne(no relations to Martin) Riggs:

I think I am having a crush on J. Triangles.I great post J!

Yea, great post by both egads and World Famous there. :)

[Boink182]

[quote]Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
Grant Morrison and Chuck Austen have stories that touch on things going on in the real world rather than just things that happened in the last big crossover and they get blasted on message boards left and right. <hr></blockquote>

Hmmm, I don't feel that Morrison and Austen are touching on real world issues enough...especially since they're on a title that lends itself so easily to commenting on real-world social problems. Even in the past, Claremont played heavily on real-world issues with the X-books, which probably made them the most popular books in the 80's.

In the past we saw Magneto as a terrorist villain who saw himself as a patriot. We were shown his fanatic following. We also saw the government passing laws to segregate the mutant population. We saw subcultures of mutants form (Morlocks, Hellfire Club, etc). We saw different governments treating mutants differently, and even Magneto creating his own government. Magneto's political dealings with the rest of the world and mutant-kind even lead our heroes to form an alliance with him. We saw riots which lead to angry mobs murdering or trying to murder mutants.

These days, in Morrison's X-Men, we see the attack of the evil twin, X-Men vs Imperial Guard, Weapon 13 and FantomX, Dust, etc. While Xavier announcing the presence of his school, the destruction of Genosha and thus the importing of their population, and the formation of the X-corps is somewhat interesting, I think Morrison can do a lot more.

First of all, Xaviers is a school. Morrison could so easily throw in educational issues and mix them in with the mutant ones for one huge social problem. Xaviers is taking on many new mutants, many of them foreign. How can he fund all this? Why not the government involved? The government could help fund the school. Or atleast the government has some interest in regulating the school (at least the importing of foreigners). The school also poses a threat (could be seen as a terrorist hide-out). If the government gets involved, would they dictate some standards for the school to follow? What about other schools? Would the mutant population be seggregated from general ed? Would the mutant drop-out rate be high? What about mutant teen-pregnancy? Does the government then register mutant powers in some database? Are mutants forced to disclose the nature of their abilities to the community where they move or job in which they apply for.

What exactly does Xavier's offer to its students? Will they just be well trained in their powers? Will they learn to live among the human population? Are the classes segregated? Are they homogenous or heterogenous? How are they separated? By powers, deformities, etc? Do mutants with deformities need extra classes in dealing with social and emotional problems that may come with them. What about the special-ed mutants? Can they be controlled in the normal classroom?

What makes up the population of Xavier's? Do more mutants come from a specific race or socio-econmic class? How is it that Xavier's first 5 students were all white middle or upper class? Shouldn't there be more mutants from the lower to lower middle class that work in heavy industrial areas? Shouldn't there be a huge population in a town like East St. Louis with its low property taxes, lack of government funds, and pollution due to its nearness to chemical companies? However, such populations are usually undereducated, participating in illegal activities, and are of African American and Hispanic ethnicities. Society places little value on such communities, and America isolates them in run-down areas which lack jobs and are subject to natural disasters. Wouldn't a huge mutant population from such an area be quite mad with society? Would Xavier's be able to reach this population? How are they compared to white upper class mutants? Would lower class mutants be so used to being treated poorly by society that a mutation would harldy matter. Compared to this, would a rich white family dump their mutant child? Or would they use huge resources to keep them isolated or treated or schooled? Furthermore, won'te these parents have much concern for their child's education at Xavier's?

Within a mutant student-population, wouldn't clique's form? Would the mutants divide into their own isolated subcultures due to their differences? Could this result in further tention? Who would be the top ranked clique? The mutants that are most powerful? The mutants that look the most normal? The mutants that have the most money and influential parents?

With Morrison extending the X-Men across the globe in X-Corps, there's even more to play with. What is China's mutant population? Their population is so huge, so wouldn't their be greater chance for mutations? Why are the most powerful and famous mutants white? Does China's communist regime search out every mutant and assign government military jobs to them according to their ability? The Xorn story touched very little on this. What do different religions say about mutants? This can be even related to the foreign students of Xavier's. Some mutants may see themselves as below dirt because that's how their culture viewed them. Others may have been reverred as gods.

I thought Morrison's X-Men would be more than it has been.

[Absalom]

I have many thoughts idem as yours here, but the fact is this topic isn't about morrison or austen, but about the thudnerbolts.
I'll be glad to continue this topic based on the reality-style put into comics, just like what morrison tries to do on new. ;)

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong>

I think I am having a crush on J. Triangles.

Great posts, J!

- Elayne</strong><hr></blockquote>


Awwwww! *blushing* As one of your longtime admirers, I thank you! ;)

[John Jakala]

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong>I think I am having a crush on J. Triangles. Great posts, J!</strong><hr></blockquote>
What, for trotting out that tired stereotype about comic book fans (or, to be more specific, superhero comic book fans) being virgins and still living with their parents?

Yeah, ha ha ha! That's really hilarious and original!!

Once again, I fail to understand the comic-book-fan in-fighting. Why is it ok to tease & criticize the tastes of superhero fans? Would it be just as funny if I posted a bunch of stereotypes about guys who enjoy reading "girls" comics?

I understand that there are some fans out there who can be extremely rude and belligerent in their attacks on things they don't like. But does that give others the right to be rude in return? Why not follow the advice you give to those 'angry fanboys' and just move on?

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by John Jakala:
<strong>
What, for trotting out that tired stereotype about comic book fans (or, to be more specific, superhero comic book fans) being virgins and still living with their parents?

Yeah, ha ha ha! That's really hilarious and original!!

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Lighten up friend, it's just humor. Even though a lot of ppl fit this stereotype, I don't think it represents all of fandom.

I'm not making fun of superhero fans or even comic book fans as a whole. I'm talking about people who get so obsessed about any hobby that they nitpick it to death and want the same stories told over and over and over again for decades and decades to come. I myself am a superhero comic fan, and I don't find anything inherently wrong in the genre. It still has loads of possibilities it can explore.

My problem isn't with keeping the superhero genre alive, I'm all for that. What I'm against is people who won't allow the superhero genre to GROW and tell different kinds of stories WITHIN the genre. There are so many real-world issues and grand themes it can tackle.

Look at PAD's Supergirl. It has elements of the Silver Age Supergirl, but its also something totally new. He's not aping Silver Age dialogue and villains, he's incorporating religion and morality and all types of grand themes with his earth angel storyline. That's great. But books like that newly announced Teen Titans that is just aping the Wolfman/Perez issues are nauseatingly unoriginal.

So in closing, the problem is bigger than superhero comics and their fans. My problem is people who are against change and experimentation in any genre, whether it's comics, movies, animation, etc. People need to appreciate change and experimentation. Today's standard was always yesterday's experiment at some point.

[John Jakala]

WFJT -

I'll follow my own advice and look past your earlier posts and simply say that I agree with most of what you have to say in your most recent post, and I think it comes across much better without the attempts at humor. Specifically, I agree with paragraphs one, two, three, and five of your post. In fact, I would agree with your post 100% if it weren't for the last line of your fourth paragraph, which contains your pre-emptive attack on the new TEEN TITANS series. It hasn't even come out yet and you're already dismissing it as "just aping the Wolfman/Perez issues" and "nauseatingly unoriginal"?? Sure, that promo art they have is an homage to Wolfman & Perez's NEW TEEN TITANS #1, but wasn't the cover to SUPERGIRL #75 an homage to an even older comic? What if people started attacking PAD's work just based on some advance hype? How do you know Geoff Johns isn't also going to use the new TT series to tackle "grand themes" as PAD did in SUPERGIRL? Johns <a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000042" target="_blank">has said in interviews</a> that "his approach [on TT] will be similar to that of JSA - the best of the old and new, but in a different way." Sounds like it's just what you've been asking for. Maybe you should give it a chance before you dismiss it out of hand.

So in closing: You complain about fanboys complaining, but then you launch into your own (unfounded) attack ("nauseatingly unoriginal"? - that's pretty rude in my book). Maybe it's just that your complaining is acceptable, but anyone else's is not? My problem isn't with people who want new things; it's with people who think the things they like are the only "cool" things, and anyone who likes something different must be belittled.

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by John Jakala:
<strong>WFJT -


So in closing: You complain about fanboys complaining, but then you launch into your own (unfounded) attack ("nauseatingly unoriginal"? - that's pretty rude in my book). Maybe it's just that your complaining is acceptable, but anyone else's is not? My problem isn't with people who want new things; it's with people who think the things they like are the only "cool" things, and anyone who likes something different must be belittled.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This thread is dying, but you make some good points so I'll just keep responding. The stories Johns has to tell in Teen Titans may be good. I don't doubt that. But I'd rather DC used its resources to create something new and exciting instead of constantly re-treading old ground. They wiped the slate clean with Crisis just so they can revisit it all again anyway. Hypertime, Buck Rogers Krypton, Krypto, Gold Kryptonite, it's all fun and kitschy now until ten years from now when we see the "Crisis II: We Mean It This Time" miniseries.

I think Young Justice was perfect. It paid homage to the general concept of Teen Titans while also being something unique of it's own. This new Teen Titans is a little overkill IMHO.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the things other ppl like. I can appreciate the occasional Claremont or Busiek old-school style book. I just disagree with the rabid internet fan who thinks that every superhero comic should be written with that hokey old-school conventional style. There's no need to flood the market with it today if its been in existence for the past 40-odd years. There's been plenty of Trades ppl can read if they want those stories over and over again. For example, I love Ditko and Lee Spidey stories from the past, my all-time favorite run. But if Marvel brought a Ditko clone on the book and had Tom DeFalco on trying to ape Silver Age diaogue I'd hate it. Why? Because it was refreshing and new when it first happened in the sixties, but by doing it now 40 years after the fact, it becomes stale and derivative, essentially making it the exact opposite of those early issues, even though it may on the surface look like it's maintaining the spirit of those books. (Wow, that's a long ass sentence. Insert periods at will.) I'd rather just read the first 38 issues of Ditko/Lee over and over again and enjoy them for what they are, and read the present Spidey for new and innovative directions the character can be taken.

I hope this makes it clearer as to why I hate the new Teen Titans announcement. I'm not judging the writer or artist, they actually seem very good. It's the overall CONCEPT which I think has been mined to death. I'd rather see that great writer/artist combo being used on something more unique. With the use of two exclusive contracts, DC killed a very interesting book (Exiles) to re-create two series that have repeatedly failed volume after volume. How backwards is that?

[John Jakala]

Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
This thread is dying, but you make some good points so I'll just keep responding.
Yeah, I have a habit of coming on to these monster threads way too late in the game :)

I'd rather DC used its resources to create something new and exciting instead of constantly re-treading old ground.
And that's fine - that's obviously your prerogative. I just think you might be going a bit overboard in trying to bring others in line with your tastes. So DC is going through a period of mining their past. So what? SUPERGIRL (a book I assume you read & enjoy) is as guilty of that as any other book. Why does that get a free pass from you? And so what if DC wanted all of its books to be updated retellings of Silver Age stories? Yeah, you may not like it - heck, I wouldn't like it either - but so what? As long as there's an audience to support it, why shouldn't the people who like those stories be able to read them?

I think Young Justice was perfect. It paid homage to the general concept of Teen Titans while also being something unique of it's own. This new Teen Titans is a little overkill IMHO.
But, again, you don't even know what's going to be done with the concept. At this point, it seems that all you're objecting to is a title and a cover. And on that basis, many (if not most) comics would appear to violate your wish for something new. They're (almost) ALL retreads of things that have been going on for decades.

For example, I love Ditko and Lee Spidey stories from the past, my all-time favorite run. But if Marvel brought a Ditko clone on the book and had Tom DeFalco on trying to ape Silver Age diaogue I'd hate it.
And that's all fine and good. You're obviously entitled to your opinion. But to me it seems you're confusing that opinion ("I hate it") with a much stronger position ("That approach is wrong.") The two things are not equivalent, nor does one follow logically from the other.

DC killed a very interesting book (Exiles) to re-create two series that have repeatedly failed volume after volume. How backwards is that?
Well, you do realize that for the most part the decision to relaunch the TEEN TITANS title has more to do with DC's decision to put out a comic that's more in line with the upcoming TEEN TITANS cartoon, don't you? (PAD discusses this point <a href="http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/gmlog/00000178.html" target="_blank">here</a>.) If that's backwards, then I suppose Marvel is backwards for all the things they're doing to bring their comics more in line with the movies.

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by John Jakala:
<strong>Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
This thread is dying, but you make some good points so I'll just keep responding.
Yeah, I have a habit of coming on to these monster threads way too late in the game :)

I'd rather DC used its resources to create something new and exciting instead of constantly re-treading old ground.
And that's fine - that's obviously your prerogative. I just think you might be going a bit overboard in trying to bring others in line with your tastes. So DC is going through a period of mining their past. So what? SUPERGIRL (a book I assume you read & enjoy) is as guilty of that as any other book. Why does that get a free pass from you? And so what if DC wanted all of its books to be updated retellings of Silver Age stories? Yeah, you may not like it - heck, I wouldn't like it either - but so what? As long as there's an audience to support it, why shouldn't the people who like those stories be able to read them?

I think Young Justice was perfect. It paid homage to the general concept of Teen Titans while also being something unique of it's own. This new Teen Titans is a little overkill IMHO.
But, again, you don't even know what's going to be done with the concept. At this point, it seems that all you're objecting to is a title and a cover. And on that basis, many (if not most) comics would appear to violate your wish for something new. They're (almost) ALL retreads of things that have been going on for decades.

For example, I love Ditko and Lee Spidey stories from the past, my all-time favorite run. But if Marvel brought a Ditko clone on the book and had Tom DeFalco on trying to ape Silver Age diaogue I'd hate it.
And that's all fine and good. You're obviously entitled to your opinion. But to me it seems you're confusing that opinion ("I hate it") with a much stronger position ("That approach is wrong.") The two things are not equivalent, nor does one follow logically from the other.

DC killed a very interesting book (Exiles) to re-create two series that have repeatedly failed volume after volume. How backwards is that?
Well, you do realize that for the most part the decision to relaunch the TEEN TITANS title has more to do with DC's decision to put out a comic that's more in line with the upcoming TEEN TITANS cartoon, don't you? (PAD discusses this point <a href="http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/gmlog/00000178.html" target="_blank">here</a>.) If that's backwards, then I suppose Marvel is backwards for all the things they're doing to bring their comics more in line with the movies.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think any concept is wrong just for the mere fact that I hate it. I think the concepts in question are "wrong" because they are so steeped in continuity that only the most intense fanboys can get into them. They're impenetrable to the rest of the world. I tried an issue of Thunderbolts and I couldn't make heads or tails of it, and I've been reading comics since the '80s! These impenetrable books are hard for even casual to semi-dedicated comic fans to get into, so imagine trying to get non-comic readers to sample them. I think the hokey old-school campy stuff should definitely exist to please those who enjoy that style. In fact, I think all types of comics should exist to please every type of reader. My pet peeve, as I've said repeatedly, is when the continuity geeks try to insist that EVERY superhero book across the gamut should revel in this constant need to wallow in the past. Claremont does X-Treme X-Men, for example, to appease the hardcore fanboy contingent. Why do people still insist that New X-Men and Uncanny X-Men become continuity-heavy as well? Likewise, the old Thunderbolts had its time to prove itself and couldn't sell enough. Why not give this new one a chance? Whether or not it keeps the Thunderbolts name or not, there won't be any new stories with the old guys anyway.

We should draw inspiration from the past, but not constantly try to recreate it needlessly.

[John Jakala]

These impenetrable books are hard for even casual to semi-dedicated comic fans to get into, so imagine trying to get non-comic readers to sample them.
Well, it's hard for me to imagine what it would be like to be a non-comic reader, so playing thought experiment probably isn't going to do much good. But I do occasionally jump into long-running TV shows (e.g., just started watching BUFFY and ANGEL last season) where I don't know the continuity. Does that count? Or maybe my years of reading comic books have prepared me to be a bit more tolerant of continuity wherever I encounter it? I don't know...

My pet peeve, as I've said repeatedly, is when the continuity geeks try to insist that EVERY superhero book across the gamut should revel in this constant need to wallow in the past.
I agree, hardcore continuity geeks can be annoying. But so can Elliseque "Superhero Comics = Death of Comics" adherents. I'm not saying you fall into the latter category, just that any extreme position can be annoying.

And I probably haven't read as many postings from hardcore continuity militants as you have (or I just gloss over them), so my frustration level with them might be lower.

But I still want to know why it's ok for SUPERGIRL to riff on old, Silver Age stories (Comet, Kara Zor-El, etc.) but the upcoming TEEN TITANS has you so concerned...

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by John Jakala:
<strong>These impenetrable books are hard for even casual to semi-dedicated comic fans to get into, so imagine trying to get non-comic readers to sample them.
Well, it's hard for me to imagine what it would be like to be a non-comic reader, so playing thought experiment probably isn't going to do much good. But I do occasionally jump into long-running TV shows (e.g., just started watching BUFFY and ANGEL last season) where I don't know the continuity. Does that count? Or maybe my years of reading comic books have prepared me to be a bit more tolerant of continuity wherever I encounter it? I don't know...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've become more cognizant of the thinking of non-comics fans through my girlfriend. We went thru this stage of "hobby-swapping" as a bonding experience--music, favorite books, magazines, etc.--and she made me really realize how unbelievably impenetrable a lot of continuity is (she did like Austen and Morrison X-Men tho, as well as Stray Bullets. Hated Waid's FF.) I also realized how many bad books I was reading either out of habit or because the creative team wasn't as awful as the previous one. Since then I've looked at comics differently and realized just how much backstory these things have. Even soaps survive because they constantly change characters, and the ones who are longtime members usually only have their immediate pasts brought up, not their whole history on the show. Hopefully comics will find a way to recreate this technique without turning away old fans and scaring away potential new ones.

I do think Marvel has gone overboard with its disregard of continuity, though. I never remember so many continuity gaffes in such a short amount of time. I think a middle ground is best.

[quote]<strong>My pet peeve, as I've said repeatedly, is when the continuity geeks try to insist that EVERY superhero book across the gamut should revel in this constant need to wallow in the past.
I agree, hardcore continuity geeks can be annoying. But so can Elliseque "Superhero Comics = Death of Comics" adherents. I'm not saying you fall into the latter category, just that any extreme position can be annoying.

And I probably haven't read as many postings from hardcore continuity militants as you have (or I just gloss over them), so my frustration level with them might be lower.

But I still want to know why it's ok for SUPERGIRL to riff on old, Silver Age stories (Comet, Kara Zor-El, etc.) but the upcoming TEEN TITANS has you so concerned...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think I just have to surf these boards less and I'll be a little less frustrated. ;) I'm just hooked on debate I guess...

The Silver Age riffs are the one thing I don't like in Supergirl actually. Occasional nods to the past are tolerable to me though, it's when the whole book itself exists solely as a nod to the past that I get bothered. That's how Return to krypton felt to me. Supergirl on the other hand had enough unique and daring themes that I've never expected to see explored using the Supergirl character, and that made me not mind and actually appreciate the Silver Age portions. And I won't lie, I LIKE Supergirl and PAD's writing, but I admit it CAN be quite impenetrable. But I honestly believe that we do need the ocasional impenetrable book, the same way we need the unique groundbreaking ones too. I just don;t want the former to make up a vast majority of the comics.

But you know what? After reading your posts, I remembered how Grant Morrison took the old Big 7 Justice League idea and made it fresh again. This made me realize that maybe I could like the Teen Titans after all, if Johns makes the stories unique enough.

This thread'll probably end soon, so I won't respond to you anymore on this thread. But feel free to post if you have any final thoughts on the matter, I'll still read them.

[John Jakala]

I honestly believe that we do need the ocasional impenetrable book, the same way we need the unique groundbreaking ones too. I just don't want the former to make up a vast majority of the comics.
Amen - I think we can all agree on that. Seems like a good note to end our debate on. Thanks for the discussion, WFJT.

[stlfan79]

I was just thinking how much I loved the revamp and searched for it. Does anyone else miss it also?

[Scalding Coffee]

Originally posted by stlfan79
I was just thinking how much I loved the revamp and searched for it. Does anyone else miss it also?

I stuck with the book untill the end--there was a certain appeal about a C-level villian trying to survive under those conditions that was intruiging, but damn, in hindsight, my love for the original T-Bolts shatters all that. Up until the point where the team was split in two, that book was at the top of the pile for me. Great stuff for anybody that has that thorough geeky MU knowledge, and good writing for anyone, besides.