Cant get over racism in Conan

[gokujam]

I know this is a DC message board, but I just felt I needed to make this post.

I'm a black person and a huge fan of Conan. I recently purchased the last release by DelRey of The conquering sword of Conan and after coming across several racist statements in the stories, such as Conan expressing his distaste for black women or explaining that you can tell a negro by his slouching gait I had to do some research on Robert E Howard to try to discover what would cause these types of statements. I was horrified and dismayed to discover the men was an unapologetic bigot and in his lifetime made statements like " I know what a ni*ger smells like when he's roasting".

This discovery has hurt me deeply and as a fan who grew up enjoying the Marvel/Roy Thomas version of the character I'm immensely disappointed.

I can no longer look at Conan and enjoy his adventures the way I used to. Now and forever they'll always be poisoned in my mind by Howard's racist beliefs.

[protonik]

Many of the writers of the time period were unabashedly racist, it was a common thing back then, far more than now. I wouldn't let it get to me if I were you and think of it as a thing of its time and be glad that times have changed for the better for the most part.

Jason

[gokujam]

I agree with you, but what do you think? Would you let it stop you from reading anymore Conan stories?

[The Shadow]

Originally posted by protonik
Many of the writers of the time period were unabashedly racist, it was a common thing back then, far more than now. I wouldn't let it get to me if I were you and think of it as a thing of its time and be glad that times have changed for the better for the most part.

Jason I agree with Jason.

I think it was more a sign of the times than anything.

[GuitarSmashley]

What if the new adventures of Tom Sawer and Huck Finn by Alan Moore and Alex Ross were to come out in three months would you read it?

[gokujam]

I see your point, but what about the original REH stories?
When I read the racial lines I cringe.

[sabremike]

Originally posted by guitaryoni
What if the new adventures of Tom Sawer and Huck Finn by Alan Moore and Alex Ross were to come out in three months would you read it?

There's a difference: Mark Twain wasn't a racist, in fact the characters in those novels are intended to mock the idea of racism.

[Piotr]

REH may have been a gifted writer and creater of characters, but he was also a nutjob who eventually killed himself. 'Nuff said.

[Agent Argent]

I know what you mean. One of my favorite authors, HP Lovecraft was a major racist, and friend of Howard. Lovecraft had a black cat named Niggerman, and would tell people blacks were hatched from eggs.

[Royal Nonesuch]

Originally posted by guitaryoni
What if the new adventures of Tom Sawer and Huck Finn by Alan Moore and Alex Ross were to come out in three months would you read it?

You don't actually think Mark Twain was a racist, do you?

[Rod Odom]

Originally posted by gokujam
I can no longer look at Conan and enjoy his adventures the way I used to. Now and forever they'll always be poisoned in my mind by Howard's racist beliefs.

I feel your pain. The Conan stories are otherwise really good stories by today's standards.

[Kolimar]

Originally posted by gokujam
I agree with you, but what do you think? Would you let it stop you from reading anymore Conan stories?

Originally posted by gokujam
I see your point, but what about the original REH stories?
When I read the racial lines I cringe.

No way. I leave the stupidity behind me and focus on the fun part of the stories. :)

[Drunken Fist]

Originally posted by Kolimar
No way. I leave the stupidity behind me and focus on the fun part of the stories. :)
Right-O! Just because you read and (for the most part) enjoy a story, it doesn't mean you have to agree with everything that is stated within it. I just ignore those lines when they occasionally pop up in REH's stories. Ian Fleming's James Bond novels had their share of them, too. you just have to keep in mind when reading stuff like that that it's just a reflection of points of view that were less taboo at the time of the writing. That doesn't make them right, but I wouldn't let an occasionaly offensive line interfere with my enjoyment of an otherwise excellent story. :)

[Simple Simon]

Lovecraft and Howard were both men of their times and we have to judge in those times. That being said, I think that to suggest that black people 'hatch from eggs' - even in jest - is pretty terrible, even for the 1920's.

If it makes the OP feel any better, Howard did hang himself (or shot himself, I forget).

[nolanjwerner]

Hmmmm......


That is a tricky subject.

Here's what I do when I get to work and there are things in there that are just incredibly offensive by modern standards in terms of racism, sexism, heterosexism, timeism, classism, etc. and I think that these help me resolve the tensions between outdated modern morality and outdated offensive content.

First of all, look at the work as a product of its times (the approach of New Historicism). In the time of Robert E. Howard and Lovecraft it was actually much more abnormal NOT to be a racist (and frankly, most upper middle class white suburbanites are about three cans of PBR away from being just as virulent of bigots--speaking as someone from that background but not of it and as the founder of Whites Against Whitey). What could something like that tell you about the attitudes of race at the time? And these tensions can be seen even in more recent works and allegorical ones. Look at Lord of the Rings for example, or the HP books.

The second approach would be to look the racial attitudes and deconstruct them. While it often looks like they privelege racist attitudes, just as often they serve to undermine them. Even with a really blatantly racist work like Kipling this can be done. In a lot of these works, it is really more of a cultural tension that disguises itself as being based on skin colour. Or the idea of "race" is used to simplify a much more complicated conflict the way religion often is.






This reminds me of a story I wrote.

When I was reading it in class, no one knew what to think of it because I apparently didn't put enough cues in that I was using the paradigm of racism to undermine the idea of racism. And I used quite a few racial slurs in there but they were used in a manner that made them so prevalent that the actual occult power of them was removed and they were shown to just be silly pieces of mud that ignorant people threw around. I actually spent like half a page listing off every single racial slur for non-white people that I could think of. And by priveleging those words enough to be used in everyday context, I actually, conversely, took away all the privelege and showed what they really were.

Of course someone handled the pages like they were blankets infected with smallpox.

I described the main character as a "proud example of white manhood" complete with a beer gut, a receding hairline and bad body odour." and I used the line, "but it was not the proud angular nose of a white man but the broad and degenerate nose of a n.igger" I mean how can a line like that be used seriously?

I always thought about submitting it to a magazine under an African-sounding pseudonym and having people praise me for my bold statements on the absurdity of racism as a black man and then condemn me for doing the same thing once they figured out who I really was.

This situation was of course made especially ironic because I was dating a black girl at the time. And the teacher of the class was Hispanic and she thought it was hilarious.

[Storminator]

Racism isn't easy just to ignore, unlike a bad Bendis or Stracinzki comic.

To the original poster, I feel your pain. At the end of the day, you can live without those old Conan stories. Just read the non-REH stories and you are still set. No need to try to rationalize continuing to read stories with a jaded brush.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Storminator
Racism isn't easy just to ignore, unlike a bad Bendis or Stracinzki comic.

To the original poster, I feel your pain. At the end of the day, you can live without those old Conan stories. Just read the non-REH stories and you are still set. No need to try to rationalize continuing to read stories with a jaded brush.




You know Othello would have been so much better if he hadn't have been a Moor too :rolleyes:


At some point, things in literary works need to be examined and resolved in their original context, regardless of how offensive they might be to some oversensitive person today.

If you got rid of everything that had something offensive towards women, gays, jews, blacks, nocturnals, gypsies, french, english, arabs and i could go down the list---thered really be no literature left.

[Storminator]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
You know Othello would have been so much better if he hadn't have been a Moor too :rolleyes:


At some point, things in literary works need to be examined and resolved in their original context, regardless of how offensive they might be to some oversensitive person today.

If you got rid of everything that had something offensive towards women, gays, jews, blacks, nocturnals, gypsies, french, english, arabs and i could go down the list---thered really be no literature left.

:rolleyes:

If you aren't black, then you don't understand. If you are black, then you are just too young to understand. You understand me?

This wil be my last entry on the subject. :rolleyes:

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Storminator
:rolleyes:

If you aren't black, then you don't understand. If you are black, then you are just too young to understand. You understand me?

This wil be my last entry on the subject. :rolleyes:




So the only way I could understand would be if I were born by accident in to a category that someone else defined?

[Storminator]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
So the only way I could understand would be if I were born by accident in to a category that someone else defined?

That just shows your ignorance to the plight. Continue on living in the stories you read, some of us live in the real world.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Storminator
That just shows your ignorance to the plight. Continue on living in the stories you read, some of us live in the real world.


So race is something other then a socially defined category?

I won't deny that it is a strong one and something almost inherent in our culture from the time that brown skinned labour was needed by Spanish settlers and skin colour was a viable way to separate people. But at the same time, look back in history and the way that races were even defined has changed greatly.

[Marchie77]

as far as i was aware, conan was a marvel/fantasy book/arnie thing until the dark horse book

while REH was most likely a bigot (so hard to accept in uber pc times) he still had an impact... if he was alive and working now, hed be considered like Byrne (not Byrne Bashing!!!) for making disagreeable statements, but still having such a great body of work behind him

also as some already said... miserable bugger who killed himself... i dont think he had much of an opinion of anyone who WASNT REH...

[Storminator]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
So race is something other then a socially defined category?

I won't deny that it is a strong one and something almost inherent in our culture from the time that brown skinned labour was needed by Spanish settlers and skin colour was a viable way to separate people. But at the same time, look back in history and the way that races were even defined has changed greatly.

Wow, you are 100% correct. I guess I've been living my life in some sort of paranoia all of my 29 years. I'm glad you've set the record straight and saved me.

:rolleyes:

You are totally oblivious to some things. Can I ask you where do you live, how old are you, and does your state even celebrate Black History month? I didn't want to go here, but I'm down for this.

[Marchie77]

Originally posted by Storminator
:rolleyes:

If you aren't black, then you don't understand. If you are black, then you are just too young to understand. You understand me?

This wil be my last entry on the subject. :rolleyes:

is this a joke?

you're saying black people are the only ones who can ever understand racism?

isnt that a bit bigoted?

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Storminator
Wow, you are 100% correct. I guess I've been living my life in some sort of paranoia all of my 29 years. I'm glad you've set the record straight and saved me.

:rolleyes:

You are totally oblivious to some things. Can I ask you where do you live, how old are you, and does your state even celebrate Black History month? I didn't want to go here, but I'm down for this.



Are you saying that im totally oblivious to the larger system that creates the idea of race? ANd I should instead look at the small picture?

Or would you actually like me to point you to sources that will show how the definitions of race changed over the years?

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Marchie77
is this a joke?

you're saying black people are the only ones who can ever understand racism?

isnt that a bit bigoted?


Actually, I got one definition of racism in my Gay and Lesbian Lit class that said that it could only be used by people in power, while regular olg bigotry and prejudice could be used by anyone.

[Storminator]

Originally posted by Marchie77
is this a joke?

you're saying black people are the only ones who can ever understand racism?

isnt that a bit bigoted?

No, as I was referring to the person I was speaking to.

You know what, I don't want to go there. I'm done with this conversation this time. I've learned in the past white kids will believe whatever they want to believe anyway.

Call me a bigot or whatever. I live in the real world and I don't feel like making a case for or against. It's a big waste of my time.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Storminator
No, as I was referring to the person I was speaking to.

You know what, I don't want to go there. I'm done with this conversation this time. I've learned in the past white kids will believe whatever they want to believe anyway.

Call me a bigot or whatever. I live in the real world and I don't feel like making a case for or against. It's a big waste of my time.



Actually my point to you last time was that ytou seemed to imply that race was something other then a social construction.

[Storminator]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Actually my point to you last time was that ytou seemed to imply that race was something other then a social construction.

Let me put it this way, why don't you just stick to what I was saying. I have no intention on figuring out what you are trying to say.

Whatever it is, I'm sure it's playing down to what I'm trying to say, is it not?

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Storminator
Let me put it this way, why don't you just stick to what I was saying. I have no intention on figuring out what you are trying to say.

Whatever it is, I'm sure it's playing down to what I'm trying to say, is it not?

I suggested two ways you could try to resolve it.

But if you don't even want to possibly think that the things you hold so dear could be social constructions, it might be a bit abstract for you.

[Marchie77]

Originally posted by Storminator
Let me put it this way, why don't you just stick to what I was saying. I have no intention on figuring out what you are trying to say.

Whatever it is, I'm sure it's playing down to what I'm trying to say, is it not?

... what are you trying to say...

this is not an argumentative comment im actually asking... what are you trying to say?

[Mr Wesley]

I have to agree with Nolan on this. Literature, like anything else, has to be examined as a product of it's time and in that context.

I think that, when reading stories like this, you have to take into consideration that fighting racism is a process, and ever evolving. Would things like what Howard said be published today? But on the other hand, there are things that can be published today that would have been horribly offensive to certain groups of people in the early 1900s.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Mr Wesley
I have to agree with Nolan on this. Literature, like anything else, has to be examined as a product of it's time and in that context.

I think that, when reading stories like this, you have to take into consideration that fighting racism is a process, and ever evolving. Would things like what Howard said be published today? But on the other hand, there are things that can be published today that would have been horribly offensive to certain groups of people in the early 1900s.



Notice that the New Critics who talked about ignoring teh context were conservative old white men.

Actually, I think howard's work would have been published but I don't think the racist content would have been there. It would have, at the very least, changed.

But then again there are critics that see racism even where it doesn't exist. Like the Witch Hunters of multiculturalism.

[Mr Wesley]

Originally posted by Marchie77
... what are you trying to say...

this is not an argumentative comment im actually asking... what are you trying to say? I think he's saying that there is no way a caucasian person could understand the black experience.

I don't know if I agree, but that's what it sounds like.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Mr Wesley
I think he's saying that there is no way a caucasian person could understand the black experience.

I don't know if I agree, but that's what it sounds like.



Because there is one absolute universal black experience.

No wait, aren't there literally dozens of works that talk about that not being true? I guess he would just ignore those :rolleyes:

[Marchie77]

Originally posted by Mr Wesley
I think he's saying that there is no way a caucasian person could understand the black experience.

I don't know if I agree, but that's what it sounds like.

well isnt that like saying nobody can understand a blonde's experience?

[Mr Wesley]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Notice that the New Critics who talked about ignoring teh context were conservative old white men.I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that? Are you saying that more conservative types are suggesting that stories like this, where racisim is inherent, shouldn't be read at all, and that's because they're trying to be PC and overcompensating?Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Actually, I think howard's work would have been published but I don't think the racist content would have been there. It would have, at the very least, changed. Oh, I totally agree with that. If he tried to get it published as is, I'm sure it would have been sent back for revisions to remove that content.

By the way, just so my cards are on the table... middle-aged caucsian American male, here.

[Kingbobb]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner You know Othello would have been so much better if he hadn't have been a Moor too


At some point, things in literary works need to be examined and resolved in their original context, regardless of how offensive they might be to some oversensitive person today.

If you got rid of everything that had something offensive towards women, gays, jews, blacks, nocturnals, gypsies, french, english, arabs and i could go down the list---thered really be no literature left.

Originally posted by Storminator
:rolleyes:

If you aren't black, then you don't understand. If you are black, then you are just too young to understand. You understand me?

This wil be my last entry on the subject. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I understand the point of Storminator's comment. Storm is, I take it, a black American...African American...however he prefers to identifiy himself. Nolan's comment, in regard to to the literary examination of a period piece, was that on some level, you need to understand the context of the time in which the piece was written to fully appreciate it. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings series was formed, drafted and written between 1910 and 1940. Knowing what was occuring during that time brings a lot of enlightenment into any conversation on the merits and faults of Tolkien's work. I took Nolan's comment to mean that, say what you will about the modern perception of the values embodied in REH's work, you do on some level need to understand the societal views of the time REH lived and wrote in order to have some understanding of why REH wrote the way he did. Which is not to condone REH's viewpoints, then or now. Storminator seems to interpret Nolan's comments as a defense of REH's views. Far from it, Nolan seems to just be saying that if you just dismiss a historical work based on modern views, you're losing a valuable opportunity to learn from history.

Taking the view of "if you're not X, you can't understand my pain" is a non-starter. And it's false. I don't need to be a woman in labor to understand what my wife went through in birthing our son. I can appreciate it without experiencing it first hand. Do I have the same depth of appreciation for the experience that she does? No. But that's a far cry from lacking a basis on which to have a conversation with her on it.

Or, put another way, if MLK had taken the position of "if you're not black, you can't understand," we'd still have different lines for blacks and whites. Talking about issues is the only way that things change.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Mr Wesley
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that? Are you saying that more conservative types are suggesting that stories like this, where racisim is inherent, shouldn't be read at all, and that's because they're trying to be PC and overcompensating? Oh, I totally agree with that. If he tried to get it published as is, I'm sure it would have been sent back for revisions to remove that content.

By the way, just so my cards are on the table... middle-aged caucsian American male, here.



What I was trying to say is that the New Critics, the people who said to ignore the context the work was produced in, were almost exclusively conservative white men with classical educations and doctorates, from the south in an era before postmodernism or multiculturalism.


Originally posted by Kingbobb
I'm not sure I understand the point of Storminator's comment. Storm is, I take it, a black American...African American...however he prefers to identifiy himself. Nolan's comment, in regard to to the literary examination of a period piece, was that on some level, you need to understand the context of the time in which the piece was written to fully appreciate it. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings series was formed, drafted and written between 1910 and 1940. Knowing what was occuring during that time brings a lot of enlightenment into any conversation on the merits and faults of Tolkien's work. I took Nolan's comment to mean that, say what you will about the modern perception of the values embodied in REH's work, you do on some level need to understand the societal views of the time REH lived and wrote in order to have some understanding of why REH wrote the way he did. Which is not to condone REH's viewpoints, then or now. Storminator seems to interpret Nolan's comments as a defense of REH's views. Far from it, Nolan seems to just be saying that if you just dismiss a historical work based on modern views, you're losing a valuable opportunity to learn from history.

Taking the view of "if you're not X, you can't understand my pain" is a non-starter. And it's false. I don't need to be a woman in labor to understand what my wife went through in birthing our son. I can appreciate it without experiencing it first hand. Do I have the same depth of appreciation for the experience that she does? No. But that's a far cry from lacking a basis on which to have a conversation with her on it.

Or, put another way, if MLK had taken the position of "if you're not black, you can't understand," we'd still have different lines for blacks and whites. Talking about issues is the only way that things change.



Exactly.

While retrospectively looking back on things can give you new insights, the original context can not be forgotten. And that original context might include attitudes that aren't acecptable anymore. But its foolish to dismiss something out of hand for that reason.

Theres as much anti intellectualism in the people who keep Chinua Achebe out of the classroom as the people who keep Tom Sawyer out because of racism.

And anyone that is so blindly and unquestioningly indoctrinated in to the system to think that race is somehow biological or so hardcore anti-whitey that they dont think that any empathy can be had by people outside a socially constructed category is like a KKK member, its a matter of degree and not kind.

And the whole race thing, its totally socially constructed. and any halfway competent non-revisionist historiographic work on the subject will tell you exactly that, the way it has been defined has changed. Groups like the Irish, Italians, Poles, Greeks, and Armenians have become white. The idea of Asian is radically different in the US (East and Southeast) and the UK (South). The idea of black has even expanded culturally.

[Storminator]

Grrrr, thank you KingBobb for trying to decipher the exchanges between me and Nolan.

Everyone has sort of taken my statments out of context, though.

Let's go back to the original post. My comments reflect to the fact that the original poster has a problem with those old REH stories now because of the feelings that were conjured up when reading one story. When he found out more about REH, he was put off by anything he writes now. It's ok to defend the literature of the time but I think the writer should be defended or not defended because many of us don't have the time of day to list every bygone writer who has views (and for that matter many views also) in which we can define them. I hope that made sense because I'm not really proofreading. The original poster has some feelings that he can't get past, and I think I would understand it more than many of you who tried to rationalize on why he shouldn't feel the way he does. I felt like I had to defend his feelings.

Now, getting back to my statements....if you aren't black you don't understand our problems. Point blank, yes. I'll say that every day of the week and until the day I die. Just like I don't understand Native American problems, but I "know" what they are. Just like I don't understand Hispanic-American problems, but I "know" what they are. Understand and "knowing" are two different things. It's not meant to be taken in a negative way.

"Knowing" and "understanding" in my context is to understand something is to be like the subject-matter expert. You can "know" something but still not "understand" jack ____. Understand?

It's like giving your condolences to your best friend after his/her mom has passed away. Unless your own mother has passed away, you wouldn't understand what he/she may be going through but you would "know" they were in turmoil.

Do you understand what I'm going on about? I really didn't want to try to defend anything because I give 1/10th of a damn on what many of the people on these boards think about social issues, but here we are. Take it any way you want to.

Originally posted by Kingbobb
Or, put another way, if MLK had taken the position of "if you're not black, you can't understand," we'd still have different lines for blacks and whites. Talking about issues is the only way that things change.

Exactly, talking about issues is the only way to change things. So many message boards censor such discussions and the media seems to censor things to the effect that would believe racism isn't alive in the world, not just America. The only sad thing about this is the fact that when you discuss these sort of things people rarely take the time to exam both sides of the issues. Yes, I know that the different races and classes have problems with each other (which we haven't discussed and I'm not up to discussing) but everyone pretends to either A) only believe one part of the story B) too ignorant to realize there is a story.

Rationalizing your point about anything about black using MLK to a black man. Especially this black man. I was a bit angered by that. Go ahead and take my statements the wrong way again, I know someone will. :rolleyes: It's part of the fun.

Let me clarify I don't have a problem with anyone personally, I have a problem with the opinions. If anyone has noticed from my other posts on this board I'm a bit of an asshole when it comes to others opinions. My mileage varies. I've went waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than I wanted to say, but there you go.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Storminator
Grrrr, thank you KingBobb for trying to decipher the exchanges between me and Nolan.

Everyone has sort of taken my statments out of context, though.

Let's go back to the original post. My comments reflect to the fact that the original poster has problem with those old REH stories now because of the feelings that were conjured up when reading one story. When he found out more about REH, he was put off by anything he writes now. It's ok to defend the literature of the time but I think the writer should be defended or not defended because many of us don't have the time of day to list every bygone writer who has views (and for that matter many views also) in which we can define them. I hope that made sense because I'm not really proofreading. The original poster has some feelings that he can't get past, and I think I would understand it more than many of you who tried to rationalize on why he shouldn't feel the way he does. I felt like I had to defend his feelings.

Now, getting back to my statements....if you aren't black you don't understand our problems. Point blank, yes. I'll say that every day of the week and until the day I die. Just like I don't understand Native American problems, but I know what they are. Just like I don't understand Hispanic-American problems, but I know what they are. Understand and knowing are two different things. It's not meant to be taken in a negative way.

Do you understand what I'm going on about? I really didn't want to try to defend anything because I give 1/10th of a damn on what many of the people on these boards think about social issues, but here we are. Take it any way you want to.



So to quote Family Guy, its not that you want Lois dead, its just that you no longer want her....alive. :rolleyes:

[Mr Wesley]

KingBobb, thanks for stating what I was trying myself to say.

[Marchie77]

personally I have a different viewpoint that if i sit down and try to get on with someone ill understand them better

sometimes we'll click

sometimes we wont

but ive travelled around the world a bit and i can say with all certainty, you can go to any culture and there will ALWAYS be someone around acting like an asshole

[I am MODOK]

The racism issues recently bothered me when I read the Solomon Kane collection of REH's work. So much so that I have taken a break from reading his stories, and I'm not sure if I'll go back anytime soon. I realize REH was a product of the time, but it is still fundamentally disappointing to know that someone who's work you admire had such a terrible belief system.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Marchie77
personally I have a different viewpoint that if i sit down and try to get on with someone ill understand them better

sometimes we'll click

sometimes we wont

but ive travelled around the world a bit and i can say with all certainty, you can go to any culture and there will ALWAYS be someone around acting like an asshole


Are you talking about me?

Or about him? Because most instances of people acting like assholes come out of a failure to communicate and clearly comprehend what someone else is saying.

[Marchie77]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Are you talking about me?

Or about him? Because most instances of people acting like assholes come out of a failure to communicate and clearly comprehend what someone else is saying.

im talking about neither of you ego-tripper

:rolleyes:

im talking about my personal experiences with both my own and other cultures and that you WILL get tools, who may well write or do great things... but theres more good in the world than bad

in my opinion

[I am MODOK]

Originally posted by Marchie77
im talking about neither of you ego-tripper

:rolleyes:

im talking about my personal experiences with both my own and other cultures and that you WILL get tools, who may well write or do great things... but theres more good in the world than bad

in my opinion

Yeah. I think what we have here is a failure to communicate! ;)

[Storminator]

Originally posted by I am MODOK
Yeah. I think what we have here is a failure to communicate! ;)

rofl

He is stated he is not talking about me, but I know I'm a big ass hole when it comes to opinions. My wife tells me this everyday ;) I can live with it.

I'm not trying to make people understand my point, I'm just putting my point out there. I am an ass about it, there is no doubting that.

Well, I'm sort of glad we had this discussion this morning. I got a load off my chest even if we sort of derailed the original topic and I didn't bother understand most of what was presented before me. It's better than sex.

No, not really.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Storminator
rofl

He is stated he is not talking about me, but I know I'm a big ass hole when it comes to opinions. My wife tells me this everyday ;) I can live with it.

I'm not trying to make people understand my point, I'm just putting my point out there. I am an ass about it, there is no doubting that.

Well, I'm sort of glad we had this discussion this morning. I got a load off my chest even if we sort of derailed the original topic and I didn't bother understand most of what was presented before me. It's better than sex.

No, not really.



I'm not entirely sure that you are right. I could easily figure out some underhanded way (since race is, in fact, a social construction) to get myself considered an African-American and then, by your definition, I would be able to understand the problems facing blacks.

[Kenro]

Originally posted by Marchie77
is this a joke?

you're saying black people are the only ones who can ever understand racism?

isnt that a bit bigoted?

Being latino I can say that I've felt racism from whites, blacks & asians (mostly koreans). From my experience no race is any better or worse than any other. They all have their embaressing moments.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Kenro
Being latino I can say that I've felt racism from whites, blacks & asians (mostly koreans). From my experience no race is any better or worse than any other. They all have their embaressing moments.



As a nocturnal-americans, i've felt timeism from day people every day of my life. We're all on the persecuted bandwagon together.




BTW, Latino and Hispanic are like the most obvious constructed races (really since both were cultural backgrounds that became races somehow). Since they can cover a very wide range of physical appearances from blonde haired, blue eyed and fair skin all the way to very dark skinned.

[NeroMan]

This is the kind of thread it's best to avoid because reading.

Because say I do read it, then I might find out something bad about somebody.
Like learning the guy who I like talking about comics with is in real life a supporter of the KKK.

[Kingbobb]

Originally posted by Storminator
Rationalizing your point about anything about black using MLK to a black man. Especially this black man. I was a bit angered by that. Go ahead and take my statements the wrong way again, I know someone will. :rolleyes: It's part of the fun.


I'm not sure this was directed at me, but I think it was. If it was, and my use of MLK to make a point angered you, well, that was sort of the point. Not to anger you, but to get you to see the fault in your discussion method. I've come across too many minorities that use the "since you've not gone through what I have, you can't understand" "argument" as an attempt to end the discussion. They play it like a minority trump card. All it does is frustrate conversation, and that was the point I was trying to make. MLK went to great lenghts to communicate, with everyone. In order for inequality to be addressed, you first need to get the establishment to understand that it exists, that it's wrong, and that something needs to be done about it. You can't do that by saying "we're oppressed, but you'll never understand because you're not us."

Which is what I saw Storminator doing. Sometimes, the only way to jar someone out of a protectionist position is to shake them at their roots. And it got what I consider to be valuable additional response and comment from Storm. So rather than go back and forth, if making myself somewhat of a target got the conversation back on track, I'll take that heat.

As to the point of the original post, I totally understand how an author's personal opinions, especially when they creep into, or are outright injected into, the author's works, can turn you off to that writer's product. I think the comments about tyring to just enjoy the modern stuff derived from, but not written by REH, are an attempt to allow the poster to continue enjoying a character he clearly has an interest in, separate from REH's racist opinion. Conan has evolved over time, just as social concepts regarding race and segregation have. I'm sure, if you looked back at some of the Superman and Batman comics from the 40s, you'd be able to find examples of out-dated, and probably even unacceptable actions and behaviours, by today's standards. Certainly, at the very least, the portrayal of women then and now would be markedly different. But that's not to say that the Superman and Batman printed today is tainted by those older version.

That's one of the great things about fictional characters....they can be updated to reflect societal changes. And in many ways, the modern versions, removed from the influence of their creators, and their creators' views, are better off.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by NeroMan
This is the kind of thread it's best to avoid because reading.

Because say I do read it, then I might find out something bad about somebody.
Like learning the guy who I like talking about comics with is in real life a supporter of the KKK.



Thats the fun of the boards.

Especially when political and comic threads are together, not that the two dont veer together often.


The KKK are a joke btw. The really dangerous white supremacists (if there is such a thing) are the ones who hide their ideology under a respectable veneer of conservativism.

[Storminator]

Originally posted by Kingbobb
I'm not sure this was directed at me, but I think it was. If it was, and my use of MLK to make a point angered you, well, that was sort of the point. Not to anger you, but to get you to see the fault in your discussion method. I've come across too many minorities that use the "since you've not gone through what I have, you can't understand" "argument" as an attempt to end the discussion. They play it like a minority trump card. All it does is frustrate conversation, and that was the point I was trying to make. MLK went to great lenghts to communicate, with everyone. In order for inequality to be addressed, you first need to get the establishment to understand that it exists, that it's wrong, and that something needs to be done about it. You can't do that by saying "we're oppressed, but you'll never understand because you're not us."

Which is what I saw Storminator doing. Sometimes, the only way to jar someone out of a protectionist position is to shake them at their roots. And it got what I consider to be valuable additional response and comment from Storm. So rather than go back and forth, if making myself somewhat of a target got the conversation back on track, I'll take that heat.

First of all, don't take too much credit for doing anything great.

Let's just say you looked at it one way and not another: because I'm black, and I made those comments I'm obviously throwing the "minority trump card".

Let's look at it that way. Which you have, but that's not what I was doing.

Anytime a black raises issues he/she is throwing the "minority trump card". You see what I have to deal with? Because evidently all I seem to know or understand is the black angle? I know, this isn't what you are trying to say but this is the sort of stuff I have to deal with it.

I'm done with this. Everyone have a nice day and God bless. Whatever God you cater to.

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Are you saying that im totally oblivious to the larger system that creates the idea of race? ANd I should instead look at the small picture?

Or would you actually like me to point you to sources that will show how the definitions of race changed over the years?

If you can't even understand that racism in a book would mean that some, or heck even most of the people that bigotry was targeted at could NOT read it, then you're very, very naive. Or don't understand what it is to be discriminated against at all.

I am not saying that non-minorities can't understand racism, but you don't understand what it is to be the victim of it in any meaningful sense.

I COMPLETELY get what the OP is saying. For me it depends on how much it intrudes in the work. I can READ a novel by someone who was a blatant racist, and judge it as a work of literature, but I will never love it. I will never see the author as anything but a bigot.

[NeoSamurai]

Originally posted by Storminator
:rolleyes:

If you aren't black, then you don't understand. If you are black, then you are just too young to understand. You understand me?

This wil be my last entry on the subject. :rolleyes:

Forget that there are other races than black and white :rolleyes:

[Marchie77]

Originally posted by Storminator
rofl

He is stated he is not talking about me, but I know I'm a big ass hole when it comes to opinions. My wife tells me this everyday ;) I can live with it.



haha well i WASNT talking about you, i was getting back to topic and more accurately referring to REH (those two gun bob strips in conan make him look extremely unlikeable...)

but glad that you and nolan can unite in either paranoia, or egotistical ways (joking :rolleyes: )

[Kingbobb]

Originally posted by Storminator
First of all, don't take too much credit for doing anything great.

Let's just say you looked at it one way and not another: because I'm black, and I made those comments I'm obviously throwing the "minority trump card".

Let's look at it that way. Which you have, but that's not what I was doing.

That may not be what you intended, but that is what you did. You tried to end the converstation by excluding the non-minority point of view because it's the non-minority point of view. Basically, "you're not black. End of discussion." Which it isn't. It's the end of progress when you walk away from the table because you don't think the other side can ever understand you because they haven't gone through what you have.

Anytime a black raises issues he/she is throwing the "minority trump card". You see what I have to deal with? Because evidently all I seem to know or understand is the black angle? I know, this isn't what you are trying to say but this is the sort of stuff I have to deal with it.

I'm done with this. Everyone have a nice day and God bless. Whatever God you cater to.

No, anytime a black raises issues, he's raising issues. When he attempts to end a conversation with "you're not black. End of discussion," THEN he's playing the minority trump card. Which is what you did. I'm not seeing things differently from the way you are. I'm seeing what you say. If that's not what you want me to see, don't say it.

[NeoSamurai]

I actually like reading Howard's stuff as well. Unfortunately, I cringe at the use and perceptions he emphasizes based off race in his works. I think a number of people do so. However, they find away to either ignore or look beyond those failings to continue reading.

I personally think it might be a good reminder to people that things like that do exist AND do make you feel uncomfortable because in modern society, we tend to ignore it based more off who we hang out with or media occultation on the subject.

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by NeoSamurai
I actually like reading Howard's stuff as well. Unfortunately, I cringe at the use and perceptions he emphasizes based off race in his works. I think a number of people do so. However, they find away to either ignore or look beyond those failings to continue reading.

I personally think it might be a good reminder to people that things like that do exist AND do make you feel uncomfortable because in modern society, we tend to ignore it based more off who we hang out with or media occultation on the subject.

It's a matter of experience. You read it and cringe. I read it, resist the urge to throw it out the window, finish it and then never read anything by that author again.

I don't deny talent, I don't say that it wasn't well-written. I don't say no one should ever read it.I will simply not support those depictions, or any work of art that portrays those values with my money.

[protonik]

Originally posted by gokujam
I agree with you, but what do you think? Would you let it stop you from reading anymore Conan stories?

No. I still read a lot of material from that time period that have similar problems like Lovecraft etc. Also, the Conan of the comics is not exactly the Conan of the stories.

Jason

[protonik]

Originally posted by Marchie77
is this a joke?

you're saying black people are the only ones who can ever understand racism?

isnt that a bit bigoted?

Yeah, he seems to have forgotten about us Kikes and Hebes, the biggest targets of racism for the last 900+ years.

Jason

[protonik]

Originally posted by I am MODOK
The racism issues recently bothered me when I read the Solomon Kane collection of REH's work. So much so that I have taken a break from reading his stories, and I'm not sure if I'll go back anytime soon. I realize REH was a product of the time, but it is still fundamentally disappointing to know that someone who's work you admire had such a terrible belief system.

I study the writings of a lot of occult authors of the late 19th and early 20th century. Trust me... you get used to it.

Jason

[protonik]

blah blah nothing to see here

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by protonik
Yeah, he seems to have forgotten about us Kikes and Hebes, the biggest targets of racism for the last 900+ years.

Jason

Are we seriusly going to have the 'my people were more oppressed than your people' argument here?

Bullsh*t.

[NeoSamurai]

Originally posted by lovelyivy
Are we seriusly going to have the 'my people were more oppressed than your people' argument here?

Bullsh*t.

Are you calling bull to the argument or bull to the fact that it even came up?

[Kenro]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
As a nocturnal-americans, i've felt timeism from day people every day of my life. We're all on the persecuted bandwagon together.




BTW, Latino and Hispanic are like the most obvious constructed races (really since both were cultural backgrounds that became races somehow). Since they can cover a very wide range of physical appearances from blonde haired, blue eyed and fair skin all the way to very dark skinned.

True enough. My baby brother is light-skinned, blue eyed and blonde haired (as was my grand pa) and I'm the exact opposite. That's just the way the Romero genes go I guess.

[Caramuru]

Originally posted by Storminator
Let's go back to the original post. My comments reflect to the fact that the original poster has a problem with those old REH stories now because of the feelings that were conjured up when reading one story. When he found out more about REH, he was put off by anything he writes now. It's ok to defend the literature of the time but I think the writer should be defended or not defended because many of us don't have the time of day to list every bygone writer who has views (and for that matter many views also) in which we can define them. I hope that made sense because I'm not really proofreading. The original poster has some feelings that he can't get past, and I think I would understand it more than many of you who tried to rationalize on why he shouldn't feel the way he does. I felt like I had to defend his feelings.

I think this is a very good point.

We all understand rationally that we can't just forget historical context and dismiss literature we find disturbing based on modern views. However, books more often than not also appeal to us on an emotional level. Our relationship with art is in big part an emotional relationship. Most people who read books, don't do it because they are historians. We do it because we find in them some sort of artistical and emotional value.

Since we relate to books on this emotional level, we are subject to an emotional interpretation of their meaning. We don't only assimilate what is good about them, but also what is bad. In that context, being the recipient of an author's bigoted views is indeed different from being an observer of those views. In the case mentioned by the original poster, he was having a perfectly valid emotional response to racist ideas. Being a black person you do have a different emotional response from a white person if someone tells you they "can tell a negro by his slouching gait." I can see why he feels the way he does, and if he chose never to read REH's books again, that would be perfectly understandable. This is not necessarily a question of seeing the book in a historical context but that of the enduring qualities of the work itself. The Conan books haven't been written in our modern era, but they are read in our modern era. This is about the books being a good read. A book that insults you may not be such a good read.

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by NeoSamurai
Are you calling bull to the argument or bull to the fact that it even came up?

Both.

How do you 'measure' atrocities? You can't. And wouldn't Native Americans win anyway? Genocide that in great part, succeeded? Or how about the Aborigines in AUstralia?

I mean how do you measure what constitutes worst? Can you? And what exactly would be the point?

[lovelyivy]

Well said.

Originally posted by Caramuru
I think this is a very good point.

We all understand rationally that we can't just forget historical context and dismiss literature we find disturbing based on modern views. However, books more often than not also appeal to us on an emotional level. Our relationship with art is in big part an emotional relationship. Most people who read books, don't do it because they are historians. We do it because we find in them some sort of artistical and emotional value.

Since we relate to books on this emotional level, we are subject to an emotional interpretation of their meaning. We don't only assimilate what is good about them, but also what is bad. In that context, being the recipient of an author's bigoted views is indeed different from being an observer of those views. In the case mentioned by the original poster, he was having a perfectly valid emotional response to racist ideas. Being a black person you do have a different emotional response from a white person if someone tells you they "can tell a negro by his slouching gait." I can see why he feels the way he does, and if he chose never to read REH's books again, that would be perfectly understandable. This is not necessarily a question of seeing the book in a historical context but that of the enduring qualities of the work itself. The Conan books haven't been written in our modern era, but they are read in our modern era. This is about the books being a good read. A book that insults you may not be such a good read.

[NeoSamurai]

Originally posted by lovelyivy
Both.

How do you 'measure' atrocities? You can't. And wouldn't Native Americans win anyway? Genocide that in great part, succeeded? Or how about the Aborigines in AUstralia?

I mean how do you measure what constitutes worst? Can you? And what exactly would be the point?

Just wanted to make sure.

[gypsynuke]

Originally posted by Simple Simon
Lovecraft and Howard were both men of their times and we have to judge in those times. That being said, I think that to suggest that black people 'hatch from eggs' - even in jest - is pretty terrible, even for the 1920's.

If it makes the OP feel any better, Howard did hang himself (or shot himself, I forget).


So the writer in the Authority/Planetary story in Judgement, Rhode Island was H.P. Lovecraft. I had no idea, and now the monsters in that story make sense, they're "Lovecraftian". I feel less dumb, yay me.

Oh yeah, as a white man who is assumed to be middle eastern, growing up in Brooklyn wasn't that fun. Black people aren't the only victims of racism. In fact when the opportunity presents itself they can be as pretty rascist like their sheet wearing brothers. Rascism is a universal idea that we all need to work on overcoming.

[Michael C Lorah]

Originally posted by gokujam
I agree with you, but what do you think? Would you let it stop you from reading anymore Conan stories?

I don't think that anybody else can answer this for you. If it detracts from your enjoyment of future Conan stories, then you shouldn't read any more of those stories. If you feel bad that your money is going to the Howard estate, don't buy them.

If you can differentiate the character from the creator and enjoy modern stories, then read them.

It's really up to you. I try very hard to divorce a creator's beliefs from my opinion of their work, but I know that I don't always succeed in doing so.

[Moonbeam]

I don't blame you one bit.

I've actually read some things about Al Capp recently that makes me kinda sorry I have Moonbeam on my name. He was a sexist to the nth degree. I still love the characters he created in his L'il Abner stories, but dangit, it does have a tarnish on it now.

[protonik]

Originally posted by lovelyivy
Are we seriusly going to have the 'my people were more oppressed than your people' argument here?

Bullsh*t.

Not what I was saying. I'm not Jewish anymore, I belong to a much smaller and more opressed minority now. LOL. It was more a case of saying when you think you have it bad, just remember what these people have had to endure for sooooooooooo long.

Jason

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by protonik
Not what I was saying. I'm not Jewish anymore, I belong to a much smaller and more opressed minority now. LOL. It was more a case of saying when you think you have it bad, just remember what these people have had to endure for sooooooooooo long.

Jason

I still think it's a bad argument. How do you argue one people's suffering over anothers?

[protonik]

Originally posted by lovelyivy
I still think it's a bad argument. How do you argue one people's suffering over anothers?

Again, not what I was saying. Compassion is the vice of Kings. You have to learn to pick and choose your battles. The black people in America are waging a campaign against ignorance while Jews, Native Americans and Muslims are fighting a campaign for survival. Which is more important? I'll pick the latter thank you. You can't let something that happened 100 years ago, when you weren't around guide you in these issues, you can't let something that happened in the 60s guide you. You have to honor those things in order to not let the evil happen again but you can't let it control you. As far as the Jews, Muslims and Native Americans go... it is still happening. The Native Americans are killing themselves and nobody is doing anything to try and stop it, to help and the Jews and Muslims are fighting a war that dates back to Abraham, they are fighting one another for survival and not realizing that if they just stop fighting they will both survive!

Jason

[GuitarSmashley]

Wow this is the first time I've checked in since alst night and Twain may not have been a racist but man did he hate himself some jews

[GuitarSmashley]

Originally posted by protonik
Not what I was saying. I'm not Jewish anymore, I belong to a much smaller and more opressed minority now. LOL. It was more a case of saying when you think you have it bad, just remember what these people have had to endure for sooooooooooo long.

Jason

Liking Liefield or are you a jew for jesus

[lovelyivy]

Well to ME it is very MUCH a battle for survival. When so many of my people's lives are touched by the penal system, when so many are afflicted by poverty and disease at greater rates than the general population, how is that NOT a battle for survival? Israel is one thing, but the vast majority of Jewish people I KNOW are affluent, healthy and not dealing with life or death issues, or even prejudice (I'm from NYC, so YMMV). ETA: You don't even self-identify as Jewish any more. I can't walk away from my race. It's a fact of my life that I deal with every day, and has an impact on every person who sees me. For MANY Jews in America, it is a choice to self-identify as a minority.

And maybe slavery ended more than 100 years ago, but Jim Crow was alive and well in my parent's time. Some of my family had to ride in the back of the bus, couldn't live in certain parts of the country, and would be lynched for looking at a white woman funny. Why would THAT not affect me?

In THIS COUNTRY, Jewish people are not fighting for survival. Even in Israel, where they have the money, weaponry and support to protect themselves, it is ARGUABLE IMO whether there is any real danger of their '"survival" as a people. Are they being terrorised? Hell yes! Is it an act of attempted genocide? Nope.

Most Jewish people that I know and have spoken with have NEVER been the subject of discrimination. Their grandparents were. Some of their parents were. And they can understand it from their own perspective. But they're not fighting for anything in their daily lives, and probably never will.

And all that still has not a damn thing to with this conversation. Understanding prejudice from the POV of a victim has nothing to do with the degree to which your people were victimized. It has EVERYTHING to do with your personal experience.

Originally posted by protonik
Again, not what I was saying. Compassion is the vice of Kings. You have to learn to pick and choose your battles. The black people in America are waging a campaign against ignorance while Jews, Native Americans and Muslims are fighting a campaign for survival. Which is more important? I'll pick the latter thank you. You can't let something that happened 100 years ago, when you weren't around guide you in these issues, you can't let something that happened in the 60s guide you. You have to honor those things in order to not let the evil happen again but you can't let it control you. As far as the Jews, Muslims and Native Americans go... it is still happening. The Native Americans are killing themselves and nobody is doing anything to try and stop it, to help and the Jews and Muslims are fighting a war that dates back to Abraham, they are fighting one another for survival and not realizing that if they just stop fighting they will both survive!

Jason

[GuitarSmashley]

wow Racist/bigoted diatribe

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by guitaryoni
wow Racist/bigoted diatribe

Please point out my bigotry by all means.

[protonik]

Sheesh. Apparently you don't understand the situation in the middle east or understand the plight of the Jewish people who were damn near wiped out in WWII. There are relatively VERY FEW Jewish people left in the world today. No, Jews are not discriminated against, they have to deal with other problems IN THE MIDDLE EAST, where the LARGE majority of them reside. Your post is filled with misunderstandings and calling me out like that is like calling you out for being black! I used to be Jewish, I know the situation in the same way you know the black people's situation. Have you EVER met a holocaust survivor? I have met quite a few of them. Have you met a Jew from the middle east? Have you heard a little girl tell the story of how she was held captive by Islamic radicals and raped multiple times every day for 3 months and disfigured violently? That wasn't the end of it either. You just turned this into the EACT arguement you thought I was trying to use. The plight of the Jewish person in the Middle East is far graver and more dangerous than you will ever understand without talking to these people. Aside from that, Jew isn't a race, its a religion. The Jewish "race" doesn't exist and is based on ugly stereotypes. There are two types of Jew, Ashkenazy and Scwartz. The Schwartz are the stereotype Jew, the Ashkenazy range in appearance as much as Caucasians and they are the majority. The Schwartz's are dying out.

The problem with the black community is called self fulfilling prophecy. Its a horrible thing, I agree. But c'mon, you can not compare the tw and be enraged by my arguement. The children of Israel are poor compared to even you. The people in charge might be rich, but the rest of Israel lives in poverty.

Jason

[protonik]

Originally posted by guitaryoni
Liking Liefield or are you a jew for jesus

Oh ho ho, a Liefeld crack! I guess that fits too. LOL.

I am way not into Jesus either. I practice the Magick system of Aleister Crowley. I'm called a Thelemite and often times we are accused of many, many horrid crimes from child molestation to human sacrifice to animal cruelty to rape and general murder. Not to say such elements don't exist within Thelema (the name of the system) but they are NOT a part of the system of magick and looked down upon as much as any other religion or system of spiritual development. Usually we are the first suspects in small communities like I live in. I was once believed to be the head of a suicide cult following Heaven's Gate and have been questioned in several suicides of a questionable nature, like a teen who listened to lots of heavy metal, wore black etc. I was once accused of teaching two underage girls I never met how to drink each other's blood in a sex rite... like I said, I never met them until they apologized. Its kind of like the early xtians or Jews in the middle ages. Nowadays the cops and such don't bug me, they will sometimes consult me on what they think may be occult related crimes (99% of the time its a no and they are just paranoid considering our per capita pagan population, which is 1 in 4). My neighbors are pretty cool about it as well, they help me out with my car and watch my dog and i occasionally babysit but it was rough the first few years trying to establish myself. I was no so much run out of a town as they just shunned the hell out of me until I left. LOL

Jason

[protonik]

Anyway, I'm out of this conversation. Its getting out of hand and I suggest the mod ought to lock it.

[gokujam]

Wow, when I started this thread I never thought things would get this out of hand. I just wanted to express my hurt and disappointment in Howard's views and in the fact that a character that has given me so many hours of enjoyment is now and forever tarnished in my mind.
Cmon guys quit arguing already.

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by protonik
Sheesh. Apparently you don't understand the situation in the middle east or understand the plight of the Jewish people who were damn near wiped out in WWII. There are relatively VERY FEW Jewish people left in the world today. No, Jews are not discriminated against, they have to deal with other problems IN THE MIDDLE EAST, where the LARGE majority of them reside. Your post is filled with misunderstandings and calling me out like that is like calling you out for being black! I used to be Jewish, I know the situation in the same way you know the black people's situation. Have you EVER met a holocaust survivor? I have met quite a few of them. Have you met a Jew from the middle east? Have you heard a little girl tell the story of how she was held captive by Islamic radicals and raped multiple times every day for 3 months and disfigured violently? That wasn't the end of it either. You just turned this into the EACT arguement you thought I was trying to use. The plight of the Jewish person in the Middle East is far graver and more dangerous than you will ever understand without talking to these people. Aside from that, Jew isn't a race, its a religion. The Jewish "race" doesn't exist and is based on ugly stereotypes. There are two types of Jew, Ashkenazy and Scwartz. The Schwartz are the stereotype Jew, the Ashkenazy range in appearance as much as Caucasians and they are the majority. The Schwartz's are dying out.

The problem with the black community is called self fulfilling prophecy. Its a horrible thing, I agree. But c'mon, you can not compare the tw and be enraged by my arguement. The children of Israel are poor compared to even you. The people in charge might be rich, but the rest of Israel lives in poverty.

Jason

I was trying to make a point with my post and play Devil's advocate. Your reaction: Outrage because I said that one people's plight is worse than another's.

Point: There is no analyzing who has it worse. Trying to do so is stupid. There's no good way to end or start that discussion.

I don't really agree with some of the things in that post (mostly stuff on the middle east. I have had a lot of arguments with people who think that Israel is becoming the agressor, and that THEY are oppressing the Arabs, but I digress) and this is one POV of a LOT of people I know- black, white, hispanic and asian.

It's their opinion, and since ALL of us have different experiences there's no way to quantify it unless you have current census data from the US and Israel.

[protonik]

Then you missed the point of my outrage. I was pissed cause you were being hypocritical not because of anything else.

Jason

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by protonik
Then you missed the point of my outrage. I was pissed cause you were being hypocritical not because of anything else.

Jason

And my point is that your attempt to put one groups suffering over another is ridiculous, and I call bullsh*t on it.

You certainly didn't like it when I did it.

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by Kenro
Being latino I can say that I've felt racism from whites, blacks & asians (mostly koreans). From my experience no race is any better or worse than any other. They all have their embaressing moments.

Yeah, I've felt racism from Jews and blacks and other races. A lot from Jews especially when I was dating a Jewish guy and frequenting his friends' and family's gatherings. It NEVER feels good to be judged by the color of your skin, what gender you were born, or what your sexual preference is. Don't care who you are -- racism is racism and it is infuriating. I can totally understand why the original poster has a problem with it and cannot help but let that invade his thoughts when reading material by a racist.

[protonik]

Originally posted by lovelyivy
And my point is that your attempt to put one groups suffering over another is ridiculous, and I call bullsh*t on it.

You certainly didn't like it when I did it.

It isn't ridiculous. Its like deciding whether to wear shorts or pants when it is snowing outside. You go for the pants.

Jason

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by protonik
It isn't ridiculous. Its like deciding whether to wear shorts or pants when it is snowing outside. You go for the pants.

Jason

It's nothing like that. At all. So I hope that was a joke. And if so, ha.;)

ETA: I'm home now. I got a glass of wine. Chapelle Show is on. G'night folks. This was a fun way to distract myself from labeling, so thanks!

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by lovelyivy
It's nothing like that. At all. So I hope that was a joke. And if so, ha.;)

ETA: I'm home now. I got a glass of wine. Chapelle Show is on. G'night folks. This was a fun way to distract myself from labeling, so thanks!

G'night, ivy!! Enjoy the wine!! :D

[Michael Hawk]

I GOT TEQUILLA!!!!

[BlueStreak]

Originally posted by Michael Hawk
I GOT TEQUILLA!!!!


PARTY AT MY PLACE!!!!

[Storminator]

I just love it how things were taken out of context and ended up here. Ridiculous.

[Michael Hawk]

Originally posted by BlueStreak
PARTY AT MY PLACE!!!! PARTY AT BS'S!!!!

[Moonbeam]

I got the Chips and Salsa!! :D

[Michael Hawk]

Originally posted by Moonbeam
I got the Chips and Salsa!! :D PARTY TIME!!!

[BlueStreak]

Originally posted by Michael Hawk
PARTY TIME!!!


Time for craziness and mime kicking!!!

[nolanjwerner]

Where the hell are the Nocturnal-Americans in this?

We're every bit as oppressed as you blacks/gays/jews/latinos/hispanics/muslims/et al. and yet we get left out EVERY SINGLE ____ING TIME PEOPLE LIST MINORITIES!!!!

We really are fighting for our survival, I mean people don't even recognize us as a minority enough to want to wipe us out actively, only through apathy and passivity. At least you minority groups have a high enough profile that people actually wnat to kill you.

That being said, drawing divisions between black and jew and nocturnal and gay really only serves to separate us when, united, we could easily be able to get the respect that we deserve and equal treatment under the law and the system.

[fuzzv1]

I just look at it as one man's opinion.

[fuzzv1]

I just look at it as one man's opinion.

[lovelyivy]

Originally posted by BlueStreak
Time for craziness and mime kicking!!!

WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE MIME-KICKING BEFORE I LEFT DAMMIT!!!!!:mad:

I am always down to kick a mime. Mute bastids.

[GuitarSmashley]

Originally posted by protonik
Oh ho ho, a Liefeld crack! I guess that fits too. LOL.

I am way not into Jesus either. I practice the Magick system of Aleister Crowley. I'm called a Thelemite and often times we are accused of many, many horrid crimes from child molestation to human sacrifice to animal cruelty to rape and general murder. Not to say such elements don't exist within Thelema (the name of the system) but they are NOT a part of the system of magick and looked down upon as much as any other religion or system of spiritual development. Usually we are the first suspects in small communities like I live in. I was once believed to be the head of a suicide cult following Heaven's Gate and have been questioned in several suicides of a questionable nature, like a teen who listened to lots of heavy metal, wore black etc. I was once accused of teaching two underage girls I never met how to drink each other's blood in a sex rite... like I said, I never met them until they apologized. Its kind of like the early xtians or Jews in the middle ages. Nowadays the cops and such don't bug me, they will sometimes consult me on what they think may be occult related crimes (99% of the time its a no and they are just paranoid considering our per capita pagan population, which is 1 in 4). My neighbors are pretty cool about it as well, they help me out with my car and watch my dog and i occasionally babysit but it was rough the first few years trying to establish myself. I was no so much run out of a town as they just shunned the hell out of me until I left. LOL

Jason

Well I was making a joke about the liefield thing but The crowley stuff has always interested me. I have a soft spot for people that were called mad men because they thought the offered religions were crap

[GuitarSmashley]

Originally posted by Moonbeam
Yeah, I've felt racism from Jews and blacks and other races. A lot from Jews especially when I was dating a Jewish guy and frequenting his friends' and family's gatherings. It NEVER feels good to be judged by the color of your skin, what gender you were born, or what your sexual preference is. Don't care who you are -- racism is racism and it is infuriating. I can totally understand why the original poster has a problem with it and cannot help but let that invade his thoughts when reading material by a racist.

Freaking Shixa's

[protonik]

Originally posted by guitaryoni
Well I was making a joke about the liefield thing but The crowley stuff has always interested me. I have a soft spot for people that were called mad men because they thought the offered religions were crap

Well thank you. I appreciate it. There's a lot of BS about Crowley, that even he propagated for a joke like Leah Hirsig ____ing a goat and then cutting its throat etc.

Truth of the story: Crowley told newspapers in Italy that the plan was to have Hirsig be mounted by a goat and at the moment of climax he was going to slit the goat's throat and drink it's blood. But the goat wasn't up to the task so AC decided to finish the work of the goat...

The truth is he said it to shock people... No such thing ever occured at the Abbey!

Jason

[Agent Argent]

Originally posted by Storminator
No, as I was referring to the person I was speaking to.

You know what, I don't want to go there. I'm done with this conversation this time. I've learned in the past white kids will believe whatever they want to believe anyway.

Call me a bigot or whatever. I live in the real world and I don't feel like making a case for or against. It's a big waste of my time.

Bigot. Your statement was very racist.

[Bytor-Snowdog]

Conan has moved beyond Howard in terms of who he is...he's as much defined by Roy Thomas and John Buscema as by Howard so I say enjoy the character and forget the bigotted asshole who created him.

[tesh_karde]

Whites Against Whitey

wow. i...wow.

you're doing the same thing. racism isn't bad because it's white's against blacks, or blacks against whites, or whites against white's, it's because one person thinks he's better than the other. it can't be solved by isolating colors. you isolating whitey (and yes, i'm sure you're isolating a 'type' of white person, but still, whitey's a bigoted name for white guys anyway, right?) isn't gonna help in the scheme of things.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by tesh_karde
Whites Against Whitey

wow. i...wow.

you're doing the same thing. racism isn't bad because it's white's against blacks, or blacks against whites, or whites against white's, it's because one person thinks he's better than the other. it can't be solved by isolating colors. you isolating whitey (and yes, i'm sure you're isolating a 'type' of white person, but still, whitey's a bigoted name for white guys anyway, right?) isn't gonna help in the scheme of things.


Whites Against Whitey is hardly a serious organization.

Part of the purpose is to show how idiotic and silly racism is to begin with.

[Storminator]

Originally posted by Agent Argent
Bigot. Your statement was very racist.

Why? Because I called him a white kid? He never refuted it as such.

[YDLM]

Originally posted by Storminator
Why? Because I called him a white kid? He never refuted it as such.

Storm, I thought you were done:D Seriously, your analogy to a loved one death is pretty accurate. My mom's death hurts me alot more than your mom's death. I like how so many went into their natural defenses. The typical retorts of "You Are A Racist", even though you didnt say your race was better than anyone else's. The classic "Race is a social construct" which is nice, when a cop stops me for looking suspicious, I will be sure to tell him that one.

On topic though, if someone says something that offends, feel free to stop liking their books. There is no rule that you have to seperate the work from the man/woman. Just dont expect everyone to follow your example.

Hearing this makes me not want to support any of RH's work, if his estate directly benefits from my purchase.I find boycott is the best protest.If its a boycott of one.

[Ogmios22188]

No, by saying that white kids will believe whatever they want to believe.

Hm, what a topic to put my first post in, huh?

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by YDLM
Storm, I thought you were done:D Seriously, your analogy to a loved one death is pretty accurate. My mom's death hurts me alot more than your mom's death. I like how so many went into their natural defenses. The typical retorts of "You Are A Racist", even though you didnt say your race was better than anyone else's. The classic "Race is a social construct" which is nice, when a cop stops me for looking suspicious, I will be sure to tell him that one.

On topic though, if someone says something that offends, feel free to stop liking their books. There is no rule that you have to seperate the work from the man/woman. Just dont expect everyone to follow your example.

Hearing this makes me not want to support any of RH's work, if his estate directly benefits from my purchase.I find boycott is the best protest.If its a boycott of one.


Race is a social construct.

This si plainly evidenced by the criteria used to put people in to races.



I never said it was a weak one or one that was going to go away.

[YDLM]

Originally posted by Ogmios22188
No, by saying that white kids will believe whatever they want to believe.

Hm, what a topic to put my first post in, huh?

That statement comes from frustration of trying to get others to see through your eyes. Its more generalization than racism. I dont know the guy, but I have heard that sentiment before.Now, its up to Storm, to say something that would make me change my viewpoint.

[YDLM]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Race is a social construct.

This si plainly evidenced by the criteria used to put people in to races.



I never said it was a weak one or one that was going to go away.

Nolan, its immaterial. It doesnt change anything, it doesnt make the world sing Kumbiyaa.Bringing up that old chestnut, adds nothing to the discussion.Racism has very little to do with intellect, you can be a genius, and still be a racist. You can be a dullard, and not have a racist bone in your body.To try to intellectualize the problem is a waste of time.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by YDLM
Nolan, its immaterial. It doesnt change anything, it doesnt make the world sing Kumbiyaa.Bringing up that old chestnut, adds nothing to the discussion.Racism has very little to do with intellect, you can be a genius, and still be a racist. You can be a dullard, and not have a racist bone in your body.To try to intellectualize the problem is a waste of time.


Yes it does.

If we can intellectualize and grasp the problem then we can deal with it.

Until we can see the undelrying structures, it will be impossible to deal with pathetic old superstitions and move the world forward.

[YDLM]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Yes it does.

If we can intellectualize and grasp the problem then we can deal with it.

Until we can see the undelrying structures, it will be impossible to deal with pathetic old superstitions and move the world forward.

You act as if we are a people, whose every belief and action is based on intellect.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by YDLM
You act as if we are a people, whose every belief and action is based on intellect.



Theres a reason I have the icon I do, LOL

[Steward Ace]

Originally posted by YDLM
You act as if we are a people, whose every belief and action is based on intellect.

This is why all my opinions fall on deaf ears, innit?:)

[YDLM]

Originally posted by Steward Ace
This is why all my opinions fall on deaf ears, innit?:)

Pretty much, why I have you on my ignore list. :D

Seriously though,flip on a television, this isnt a society ruled by intellect.

[Steward Ace]

Originally posted by YDLM
Pretty much, why I have you on my ignore list. :D

Seriously though,flip on a television, this isnt a society ruled by intellect.

And with you, that makes 51% of Newsarama's Ignore Lists. That means I have a mandate!:D

Totally agree with you about this not being a land ruled by intellect, although in many cases I think that is a good thing. And in many cases a bad thing.

[YDLM]

Originally posted by Steward Ace
And with you, that makes 51% of Newsarama's Ignore Lists. That means I have a mandate!:D

Totally agree with you about this not being a land ruled by intellect, although in many cases I think that is a good thing. And in many cases a bad thing.

Agreed, intellect with no emotion is not always a good thing, and vice versa.

[Cray_ws]

I'm suddenly heartbroken to hear that Robert E Howard was racist and his views are in Conan. I haven't read any and now that I ve been made aware of it I don't think I'll will be getting any of Robert E Howard's works. I'm even contemplating not to pick up any the Dark Horse stuff. I know the new Conan material would never share the racist views of its original works. This really bugs me because I like the concept of the character. I'm afraid I'm going to have to sample these questionable original works myself to determine what to do.

Does anyone know if any of Robert E Howard characters have mudered or tortured minorities? Any stories that were completely revolved around racial bigotry?

I realize Howard came from a different era and his views were probably very common, but I guess I had hoped he was better than that or at least didn't put those views in his works.

[Fazhoul]

If you guys think that REH was racist you should try reading the original James Bond books by Ian Fleming, especially Live and Let Die. The villains in the book are a black gang and are repeatedly referred to as niggers and, IIRC, the term "darkie" was even used one time. During the mission briefing M is telling Bond about Mr. Big, the head of the black gang, and he says that there hasn't been a black criminal mastermind yet in history because the black race hasn't been known for the geniuses it produces. I was appalled at the rampant racism.

So, I wonder if all of you who say you're going to boycott REH properties are also going to boycott the Bond franchise. (Not that the movies have been that hard to skip in recent years.)

[YDLM]

Originally posted by Fazhoul
If you guys think that REH was racist you should try reading the original James Bond books by Ian Fleming, especially Live and Let Die. The villains in the book are a black gang and are repeatedly referred to as niggers and, IIRC, the term "darkie" was even used one time. During the mission briefing M is telling Bond about Mr. Big, the head of the black gang, and he says that there hasn't been a black criminal mastermind yet in history because the black race hasn't been known for the geniuses it produces. I was appalled at the rampant racism.

So, I wonder if all of you who say you're going to boycott REH properties are also going to boycott the Bond franchise. (Not that the movies have been that hard to skip in recent years.)

Trust me avoiding James Bond movies is pretty easy. Who needs James when I got the Transporter:D

[Storminator]

Originally posted by YDLM
Storm, I thought you were done:D Seriously, your analogy to a loved one death is pretty accurate. My mom's death hurts me alot more than your mom's death. I like how so many went into their natural defenses. The typical retorts of "You Are A Racist", even though you didnt say your race was better than anyone else's. The classic "Race is a social construct" which is nice, when a cop stops me for looking suspicious, I will be sure to tell him that one.

I'm clapping. Thank you, YDLM for being the only person who got what I said. No need to change your viewpoint, you got it.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by YDLM
The classic "Race is a social construct" which is nice, when a cop stops me for looking suspicious, I will be sure to tell him that one.
Yes, trying to "intellectualize" racism in novels from the early part of the last century is a lot easier than trying to apply the same thought processes to a real-life racist situation. However, saying that no one who hasn't experienced prejudice can appreciate it's effects is a foolishly self-destructive stance to take, as it alienates people who would otherwise support (and hold) anti-racist opinions.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Fazhoul
So, I wonder if all of you who say you're going to boycott REH properties are also going to boycott the Bond franchise.
Like Conan, the Bond franchise is more closely associated with other media than that into which is was brought forth originally. There is no need to "boycott" Conan comics or Bond movies, but I certainly don't read the original novels about either character. The stories can hardly be deemed "classics" and their outdated racist viewpoints just make them even less relevant to a modern reader.

[Storminator]

Originally posted by skywatcher
However, saying that no one who hasn't experienced prejudice can appreciate it's effects is a foolishly self-destructive stance to take, as it alienates people who would otherwise support (and hold) anti-racist opinions.

I haven't read the last 3 or 4 pages fully.....who made such a statement?

Btw, I also don't recall anyone saying they would boycott anything. This thread keeeps getting more and more off track.

Of course, excuse me if I missed something somewhere. I guess I should read back some.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Storminator
I haven't read the last 3 or 4 pages fully.....who made such a statement?
You did! It was when you stated that "If you aren't black, then you don't understand".
Cray_ws (among others) was one of the posters planning to boycott Conan properties.
Now you don't have to read the rest of the thread!;)

[Storminator]

Originally posted by skywatcher
You did! It was when you stated that "If you aren't black then you don't understand".
Cray WS (among others) was one of the posters planning to boycott Conan properties.
Now you don't have to read the rest of the thread!;)

Because you obviously didn't read the rest of my statements, too?

Now, getting back to my statements....if you aren't black you don't understand our problems. Point blank, yes. I'll say that every day of the week and until the day I die. Just like I don't understand Native American problems, but I "know" what they are. Just like I don't understand Hispanic-American problems, but I "know" what they are. Understand and "knowing" are two different things. It's not meant to be taken in a negative way.

"Knowing" and "understanding" in my context is to understand something is to be like the subject-matter expert. You can "know" something but still not "understand" jack ____. Understand?

If you aren't black, you don't truly understand what our problems are. Did you read black literature on the subject? Watch black forums? Been given funny looks because you are black? Had some very stereotypical comments thrown your way because you are black? I don't want to get to singling out my own race, but I've been in other countries around the world and I get the same stuff their too. God, forgive me for being black and able to speak better on it than you. :rolleyes:

It's not a racist statement. We are all different. If we talk about it more everyone wouldn't look at it so negatively. The only problem with my statements is the fact that I'm black, and everyone wants to take anything said by a black man concerning race as just a black man making some negative statements.

Holy cow, I've been called an Uncle Tom in my life, and a racist. Which one am I? ROFL

Have a good day.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Storminator
Because you obviously didn't read the rest of my statements, too?It's not a racist statement.
I never said your stance was racist (that was another poster) I said your stance was "foolishly self destructive" because it would alienate people who would otherwise agree with you!!!!!! Please reply to my comments, not those of others.

[Storminator]

Originally posted by skywatcher
I never said your stance was racist (that was another poster) I said your stance was "foolishly self destructive" because it would alienate people who would otherwise agree with you!!!!!! Please reply to my comments, not those of others.

Oops, excuse me for that.

Self-destructive? You live in the UK....a predominately white location to live.....you wouldn't undestand either.

I can go on all day with this. Good day, mate.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Storminator
Self-destructive? You live in the UK....a predominately white location to live.....
That's an hilariously generalised statement, you know! You have absolutely no idea how many black people live in Liverpool, England. But you can find out using the resources at your fingertips. By the way, isn't the USA "a predominantly white location to live"?:rolleyes:

[Storminator]

Originally posted by skywatcher
T...By the way, isn't the USA "a predominantly white location to live"?:rolleyes:

Eureka! Now you are catching on!

;)

I love it how some people can't seem to realize the difference between a 'majority' and a 'minority'. By golly, massa, I'se dink they'ze see the lite sum dey!

I know by being an ass I sort of invalidate my points, but this is too much fun getting some of you bent out of shape when you obviously have never thought on both sides of the fence.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Storminator
Eureka! Now you are catching on!
By your own logic then YOU don't "understand" about being Black because you live in a "predominantly white location". You may want to type in "Liverpool riots 1981" to whatever search engine you use. Incidentally, you are assuming that I am white based on the avatar to the left- at one time Austin Powers occupied that space, that doesn't mean I am him or that I share his race!

[Cray_ws]

Originally posted by Storminator
I know by being an ass I sort of invalidate my points, but this is too much fun getting some of you bent out of shape when you obviously have never thought on both sides of the fence. That's at least twice you referred to yourself or your actions as "being an ass". If you are so self-aware of your own inadequacies wouldn't you at least try not being such an ass? Saying your an ass doesn't make your behavior any less excuseable. Its one thing to explain your brash personality its another to use it as crutch for constant "oops" and lack of willingness to respond in civilized manor that doesn't condescend other people.

As for me boycotting Conan, I haven't officially decided yet, and its purely a personal decision. I'm not telling anyone "boycott" Robert E. Howard properties because I personally am offended.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Cray_ws
As for me boycotting Conan, I haven't officially decided yet, and its purely a personal decision. I'm not telling anyone "boycott" Robert E. Howard properties because I personally am offended.
If you boycott Conan properties will you also stop buying Superman, Batman, Captain America and Wonder Woman because of the blatantly racist covers that were published featuring those characters during World War II? I would imagine your answer is "No" and therefore I fully expect you to only not buy/read the original REH novels

[Kingbobb]

Originally posted by Storminator
If you aren't black, you don't truly understand what our problems are.

This is BS. I don't have to literally walk in your shows to understand what it is to be black.

Did you read black literature on the subject?

Why, yes, as a matter of fat, I have.

Watch black forums?

If by this, you mean attended or watched blacks discussing racisms, then, again, I have. And spoken to quite a few at length about the topic.

Been given funny looks because you are black? Had some very stereotypical comments thrown your way because you are black?

Well, you got me on this one. No, because I'm not black. I am, however, Cherokee and Filipino, so I'm pretty obviously not white. Most don't know exactly what I am, but I've gotten funny looks just for the way I look. I've gotten comments that were obviously intended to be racial insults. I've had to live with it all my life.

...If we talk about it more everyone wouldn't look at it so negatively. The only problem with my statements is the fact that I'm black, and everyone wants to take anything said by a black man concerning race as just a black man making some negative statements.

Comments like these are self-defeating. I've not seen one person take your comments to task because you're black...they've taken you to task because you're black, and you say that only another black man can uderstand you. If that's the case, why would anyone bother to try and talk to you about it? Because you've already prefaced the converstation with "you can't ever understand this..." It's a non-starter. The key to ending racism on ALL sides is to understand that, while it may be impossible for a majority culture to truly comprehend the depths that negative racist treatment goes to, it IS possible for them to understand some of what it means to be a minority. Without any common understanding, there's always going to be racism. And that means that black, white, yellow, red, pink, whatever, needs to stop with all the "you can't understand" BS, and start actually talking.

In other words, don't hide behind the persecution. MAKE us understand. Talk WITH us, not AT us.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Kingbobb
as a matter of fat, I have.
You'll have to lay off the Big Macs then! :D

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Kingbobb
The key to ending racism on ALL sides is to understand that, while it may be impossible for a majority culture to truly comprehend the depths that negative racist treatment goes to, it IS possible for them to understand some of what it means to be a minority. Without any common understanding, there's always going to be racism. In other words, don't hide behind the persecution. MAKE us understand. Talk WITH us, not AT us.
Hear hear!

[Agent Argent]

Originally posted by Storminator
Because you obviously didn't read the rest of my statements, too?



If you aren't black, you don't truly understand what our problems are. Did you read black literature on the subject? Watch black forums? Been given funny looks because you are black? Had some very stereotypical comments thrown your way because you are black? I don't want to get to singling out my own race, but I've been in other countries around the world and I get the same stuff their too. God, forgive me for being black and able to speak better on it than you. :rolleyes:

It's not a racist statement. We are all different. If we talk about it more everyone wouldn't look at it so negatively. The only problem with my statements is the fact that I'm black, and everyone wants to take anything said by a black man concerning race as just a black man making some negative statements.

Holy cow, I've been called an Uncle Tom in my life, and a racist. Which one am I? ROFL

Have a good day.

Thank you for educating me on this matter. You have taught me that I should not try to understand. Thanks you for saving me lots of time on a wasted effort of trying to grasp someone else's exprience....:rolleyes:

[Hammer]

Originally posted by Kingbobb

Because you've already prefaced the converstation with "you can't ever understand this..." It's a non-starter. The key to ending racism on ALL sides is to understand that, while it may be impossible for a majority culture to truly comprehend the depths that negative racist treatment goes to, it IS possible for them to understand some of what it means to be a minority. Without any common understanding, there's always going to be racism. And that means that black, white, yellow, red, pink, whatever, needs to stop with all the "you can't understand" BS, and start actually talking.

In other words, don't hide behind the persecution. MAKE us understand. Talk WITH us, not AT us.

This is without a doudt thee most intelligent thing that was said here. Kingbobb is my new hero.:D :D

[YDLM]

KB, I have to respectfully disagree. Racism isnt new, neither is Sexism, or any other ism.If you dont "understand" it by now, then you probably never will. You and I cant end racism, all we can do is encourage are small circle of influence and try to be decent people. Thats it. We can do a little more self examination, and check our flaws, and try to do a little better.

The isms lie in generalizations, insecurity,and apathy. You check those parts of yourself, and you will be apart of the solution and not the problem.

Now, I am going to go get some fried chicken and make sweet love to my four wives:D

[Kingbobb]

Originally posted by YDLM
KB, I have to respectfully disagree. Racism isnt new, neither is Sexism, or any other ism.If you dont "understand" it by now, then you probably never will. You and I cant end racism, all we can do is encourage are small circle of influence and try to be decent people. Thats it. We can do a little more self examination, and check our flaws, and try to do a little better.

The isms lie in generalizations, insecurity,and apathy. You check those parts of yourself, and you will be apart of the solution and not the problem.

Now, I am going to go get some fried chicken and make sweet love to my four wives:D

I guess it's a Chicken and Egg paradox. Yeah, isms were around long before the current generation came of age. Man of us were raised with them, either to perpetuate them, or to endure them. I believe that in trying understand each other, we will end isms. In fact, I believe that ONLY in coming to understand each other will isms become a thing of the past. But that depends on the opressed being willing to take the time to make us undertand, to teach us.

[nolanjwerner]

Hello?

What about the timeist prejudice I suffer every day of my life?

How is that different?

We both have a flawed outdated system created to hold us down.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by YDLM
Racism isnt new, neither is Sexism, or any other ism.If you dont "understand" it by now, then you probably never will. You and I cant end racism, all we can do is encourage are small circle of influence and try to be decent people. Thats it.
The point he was making was that it is wrong to dismiss people's ability to "understand" prejudice based on their race,religion or sex. Just because someone hasn't been a victim of prejudice doesn't mean that he /she can't appreciate the damage it does to such a victim. As you say, no one can end racism alone, but everyone working together can move mountains.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
What about the time ist prejudice I suffer every day of my life?
You really are an "ego tripper" as someone called you earlier! How can you compare your self-inflicted (no one makes you stay awake all night) "problem" with racism or sexism? There really is no comparison! :mad:

[Punchy]

Originally posted by skywatcher
You really are an "ego tripper" as someone called you earlier! How can you compare your self-inflicted (no one makes you stay awake all night) "problem" with racism or sexism? There really is no comparison! :mad:

He's joking Mark:)

[YDLM]

Originally posted by Kingbobb
I guess it's a Chicken and Egg paradox. Yeah, isms were around long before the current generation came of age. Man of us were raised with them, either to perpetuate them, or to endure them. I believe that in trying understand each other, we will end isms. In fact, I believe that ONLY in coming to understand each other will isms become a thing of the past. But that depends on the opressed being willing to take the time to make us undertand, to teach us.

The "Oppressed" have always tried to make people understand, but would you be interested in hearing a story where you are the bad guy?

To put this in comic book terms. When a fan favorite book gets cancelled, who do we blame? More often than not its the publisher. Now imagine, if the writer and artist of that book came on here, and started blaming the fans. They would be vilified. But, in all honesty, the reason, their book got cancelled is because the fans didnt buy. The fans complained, and they gave them what they want, but they still didnt sell. While the book that everyone complains about is doing great numbers.

Its easy to say I want a dialogue, buts its a lot harder to actually have a dialogue, where you are the main reason for the problem.

In these situations, people would rather see themselves as the "wronged". Because when you are the "wronged", then you have no responsibility, there is nothing you need to do to change.

Listen to some Right Wing radio, its some of the most bigoted bile, you will ever listen to, but do you think any of the listeners or talk show hosts think of themselves as the bad guy. Some of the left is not much better, they are so in love with the role of the "oppressed", that any action to truly change that is easily dismissed. Each jockey for the role of victim, just in different ways.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Punchy
He's joking Mark:)
I'm glad to hear it and, if so, I apologise unreservedly! :)

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by skywatcher
You really are an "ego tripper" as someone called you earlier! How can you compare your self-inflicted (no one makes you stay awake all night) "problem" with racism or sexism? There really is no comparison! :mad:



How dare you call it a choice?

Gays aren't told they have a choice and then forced to choose between their genetic code or their very survival!

By refusing to admit Nocturnal-Americans in to your little "scene" of minorities, you show thatr you are indeed not in any way interested in making things better but instead perpetuating the same system that oppresses you. Don't shoot the messenger just because you are too brainwashed to know any better.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
By refusing to admit Nocturnal-Americans in to your little "scene" of minorities, you show that you are indeed not in any way interested in making things better but instead perpetuating the same system that oppresses you.
Quite, the only "nocturnal Americans" I can think of are Coyotes! :p
That's a RUFF joke I know! I should PAWS for thought!:D

[ShatterComics]

Originally posted by Storminator
Because you obviously didn't read the rest of my statements, too?



If you aren't black, you don't truly understand what our problems are. Did you read black literature on the subject? Watch black forums? Been given funny looks because you are black? Had some very stereotypical comments thrown your way because you are black? I don't want to get to singling out my own race, but I've been in other countries around the world and I get the same stuff their too. God, forgive me for being black and able to speak better on it than you. :rolleyes:

It's not a racist statement. We are all different. If we talk about it more everyone wouldn't look at it so negatively. The only problem with my statements is the fact that I'm black, and everyone wants to take anything said by a black man concerning race as just a black man making some negative statements.

Holy cow, I've been called an Uncle Tom in my life, and a racist. Which one am I? ROFL

Have a good day.

Storm, I think where the problem is coming from, is where you stated.

"If you're not black, you couldn't understand."

In saying that, you speaking as if it's a absolute. If you're not black, you couldn't understand. There's no room for anything else in that statement. It's a broad generalization.

Now. I do agree, that if you're not black, a person can't quite get your peoples problem with the understanding that your people have. They simply lack that experince and insight. That's not to say that can't relate to you however, that they can't place themselves in your shoes, thus leading to a level of understanding.

I have a saying.

With relating, do we learn understanding. With understanding, do we learn compassion. With compassion, do we learn love.

[stiltman6969]

is this thread FOR REAL?

how did an argument even start?? Robert E Howard is a racist and if ppl are offended then quit reading his stuff... he was a racist and there's no reason to read it if it offends you... doesn't matter if ppl say it is good or not.

basically everyone BUT storminator is wrong in some way or another. holy ____ this thread is mindblowing.

"timeism????" greatest thing i have ever read. this from the guy who parades his "black girlfriend" around like a trophy of understanding.

[Sk8maven]

RE Howard had A LOT of problems, of which racism was not even the worst. He was a severely neurotic "Mama's boy" and blew his brains out immediately after she died of cancer - didn't even wait for the funeral. :eek:

You can look it up.

Maven

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by stiltman6969
is this thread FOR REAL?

how did an argument even start?? Robert E Howard is a racist and if ppl are offended then quit reading his stuff... he was a racist and there's no reason to read it if it offends you... doesn't matter if ppl say it is good or not.

basically everyone BUT storminator is wrong in some way or another. holy ____ this thread is mindblowing.

"timeism????" greatest thing i have ever read. this from the guy who parades his "black girlfriend" around like a trophy of understanding.


ex girlfriend.

And timeism is real. Its not my fault if you guys are too brainwashed to understand that.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by stiltman6969
everyone BUT storminator is wrong
Thanks for your contribution,:rolleyes:

[Habitual]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
ex girlfriend.

And timeism is real. Its not my fault if you guys are too brainwashed to understand that.

Nolan you are:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/habitual/Cuckoo_Cocoa_Puffs_tshirt.jpg


Hab

[Habitual]

Originally posted by skywatcher
You really are an "ego tripper" as someone called you earlier! How can you compare your self-inflicted (no one makes you stay awake all night) "problem" with racism or sexism? There really is no comparison! :mad:

I am in complete agreement.

Hab

[Kingbobb]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
ex girlfriend.

And timeism is real. Its not my fault if you guys are too brainwashed to understand that.

I know you keep explaining this, but every time I try to understand, I just can't relate. I'm not an nocturnalist.

Although I was, once. But those years are a haze of Jolt soda and Dean Koontz books. I just don't recall....

:p

[Habitual]

Originally posted by Kingbobb
I know you keep explaining this, but every time I try to understand, I just can't relate. I'm not an nocturnalist.

Although I was, once. But those years are a haze of Jolt soda and Dean Koontz books. I just don't recall....

:p

I just read up on it and it seems timeism is real, as real as werewolves and vampires :D

Hab

[Evan Waters]

What's this doing in the DC Comics board?

[Kingbobb]

Originally posted by Habitual
I just read up on it and it seems timeism is real, as real as werewolves and vampires :D

Hab

Now I have to try and understand the plight of the Supernatural, too? gaahhh! Although I do WATCH Supernatural, but that's usually about killing the supernaturally persuaded. Which doesn't actually sound to accepting to me. I'll need to work on this. Is lycanthropy permanent. Maybe I can just get a 24 hour version of it?

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by Evan Waters
What's this doing in the DC Comics board?
Ask the threadstarter!!!! It's not even about Conan Comics, but the novels the character originated from!

[windsabre]

I have two rules to guide my life. They've helped me get through 34 years and maybe they'll help you.

1. never let a man who lived his whole life with his mom then killed himself ruin my day. You should know right off the bat there's something wrong with his views and decision making skills.

2. never get bitten in the eye by a rabid beaver on a monday morning before you've had your coffee.

seriously, though, i have to agree with others - while there is no real excuse for his twisted views, it was probably more of a combination of time/place.

As for it stopping you from reading about conan? I wouldn't let it stop you. Like much of popular, iconic literature these days... its not written by him (he's dead ;)) anymore. Conan has grown and as the years go by and different creators add their spices to the mix, the more the character evolves to reflect the times. Look at Star Wars and all of the novels out there. Or Batman!

More than likely, the man who invented toilet paper was a racist. While it is an offensive point of view for me, I'm sure as heck not going to stop using TP.

If you enjoy it, read it!

[Terram]

Since I'm so racially challenged to the point of being apparently unable to possibly comprehend this young man's plight,

I find myself unable to care. Darn.

[stiltman6969]

i work graveyard shift and have never felt the effects of "timeism" so... that means this guy must be some kinda ____-up. that is the only way i can explain him having any sort of issue keeping a different sleep schedule.

also he needs to cut back on the college courses about diversity and understanding. they have no bearing in the real world.