MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END

[MichaelDoran]

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/THEENDcover.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/THEENDcover_t.jpg" width="150" height="224" border="0" alt="MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END no. 1 cover" align="right"></a>A few months ago when veteran writer/artist Jim Starlin let it be known he was creating a new Marvel mini-series entitled The End of the Marvel Universe, most fans assumed it'd be his chapter in Marvel's series of "The End" projects, which are based on the creative conceit that they're the "last" stories told about Marvel's biggest icons set in the far-flung future.

Turns out they were only half right. Marvel Universe: The End (its official title), a six-issue monthly mini-series beginning this March with a double-sized first issue, is a part of "The End" series of books, but it does not take place in the far future. Starlin's story occurs during a time and place that will look real familiar to Marvel fans.

Starlin - who writes and pencils (with Al Milgrom on inks and Christie Scheele and Heroic Age on colors) - explained the series will feature "everyone in the Marvel Universe I can squeeze in", but focuses on the central characters Thanos and a newcomer named Akhenaten.

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend2_t.jpg" width="175" height="135" border="0" hspace="1" alt="MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END no. 1, pg. 2" align="left"></a>"Everyone dies at least once and a major change in the Marvel Universe happens at the end of the story," said Starlin, who hinted this change "involves Death" (with a capital 'D').

What makes the project different from original expectations, however, is that it takes place in the contemporary Marvel Universe … well, sort of. Perhaps it would be better to say the identical twin sister of the contemporary 'continuity' Marvel Universe.

"By definition, a The End project stands outside of continuity," explained series' editor Tom Brevoort. "That said, Jim's story takes place in the here and now, rather than decades in the future as Hulk: The End did, so he's taking great pains to make it as up to date as he can."

So much so Starlin is writing it as if it were an in-continuity story, even though it's really not. Or in other words, if you've always wanted to read about the current-day Marvel Universe coming to an end, this is your story. But you can still expect the Marvel Universe to be in business come September when this series winds up.

Just to be sure no one walks away confused, Brevoort explained some more…

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend3_t.jpg" width="175" height="135" border="0" hspace="1" alt="MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END no. 1, image. 3" align="right"></a>"It takes place out of continuity, but in a Marvel Universe that is as identical to the 'real' one to start with as we could make it, given the lead time. In other words, if this was the only project we were putting out in March, if we were really canceling the entire Marvel line, there wouldn't be any question as to when this story takes place. It happens now."

And as to that "change" to the Marvel Universe Starlin hinted at, Brevoort issued his trademark "wait & see" when asked for more detail, saying only that the series' scope is huge and any character a Marvel Universe fan would want to see will probably be in there somewhere.

So while Brevoort is on record promising this won't be the end of the Marvel Universe, with that persistent Marvel Universe vs. Ultimate Universe debate and 'Ultimatization' scuttlebutt, there may be some readers keeping a trained eye on this series.

<p align="center"><a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend1_t.jpg" width="150" height="225" border="0" hspace="1" alt="MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END no. 1, image 1"></a><a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend4_t.jpg" width="150" height="225" border="0" hspace="1" alt="MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END no. 1, image 4"></a><a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/Muend5_t.jpg" width="150" height="225" border="0" hspace="1" alt="MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END no. 1, image 5"></a>

Got something to say about this? <a href=http://classic.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=agree>CLICK HERE</a> to register and join one of comics' most active online communities. Registration is fast and easy.

[Slangword]

Well, Starlin and Milgrom art is usually pretty nice, so I may give it a try. I wish they'd do a regular series again.


On another note, I hope that the focus (in this and other "END" projects) is more on the thematic conclusion of a series than just people dying. I thought the Hulk "END" was more a logical end than the conclusion of the long and varied saga of Bruce Banner. I didn't find it satisfying in that sense. (Of course, I prefer happy endings -- I don't like the idea that these characters are struggling in vain -- so that may have colored my perception.)

Does anyone remember the story Mark Gruenwald did for Bizarre Adventures in the 80's that basically ended the story of the Marvel Universe, albeit in disguise? I remember reading this story about the last of a number of superbeings and realizing it was a version of his Aquarian character from Marvel Two in One.

--Scott

Edited because I decided I had more to say.

[Christoph]

Looks interesting, I like the fact that we'll get to see some of the characters that aren't featured too much (like Photon). His art looks good too. I haven't picked up any of the Infinity stuff but this looks like something I would enjoy.

And no, I don't think that this will bring about the full "Ultimatization" (or however you would spell it) of the MU. I never understood why anyone would think that Marvel would do that - are they going to have 15 Ultimate X-Men books?

[Pariah]

B]focuses on the central characters Thanos and a newcomer named Akhenaten[/B]

Haven't we seen this a THOUSAND times before? Gee, I remember in the early 90's spending a lot of money on the Infinity Gauntlet, then one or two spin-offs that killed everyone and brought them back two seconds. "The Last Avengers Story" is the only End story that holds any interest for me. Count me out.

[Lex]

So this really isn't the end to Marvel Comics?

Awwwwwww man. :(

Seriously though, I like the idea behind these "The End" projects. I really enjoyed the Hulk one-shot so I'll definately check out this mini. The only thing I worry about is that it might be a little confusing for a non-Marvel reader like myself.

Other "The End" projects I'd like to see:

X-Men
Captain America
Spider-Man
Avengers

I don't have any opinion on the creative teams because haven't read many Marvel books.

[Stratus]

I remember hearing about one or two others with set creative teams, but I don't remember what they were, or which projects.

My ideal books:

Silver Surfer: by Steve Englehart and Ron Lim
Spider-Man: by JM Dematteis and Mark Bagley
X-Men: by Christ Claremont and Jim Lee (ha!)
Fantastic Four: by John Byrne and Carlos Pacheco
Daredevil: by Frank Miller and David Mazzuchelli
Captain America: by Mark Waid and Ron Garney

And to be honest, I would much prefer if someone other than Starlin were penciling this series. I enjoy his writing, but his drawn characters are stringy and stiff. Even still, this looks like a fun project - I won't be waiting for the trade.

Regards,
Stratus

[Sean Walsh]

Jim Starlin tackling the Marvel Universe is usually pretty decent fun. I'll give this a whirl...

Sean
:)

[ZOD]

[quote]Originally posted by Stratus:
<strong>X-Men: by Chris Claremont</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, it's already been confirmed that CC will indeed be writing X-Men: The End. No artist has been announced yet.

ZOD

[Nic]

Other "The End " projects I'd like to see: Marville.

[Monkey in a Wheelchair]

They could just re-release 'Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe' and call it 'The End of the Marvel Universe.' Or get a flashier artist to redraw it, for the kids.
-- chip

[MattFreakinLittle]

If this is in the scope of 'Infinty Gauntlet,' then count me in. I really want Starlin to prove that he still has the knack to tell a cosmic story. Didn't pick up 'Infinty Abyss,' anyone wanna say how that was???

[chico]

This sounds pretty lame. The black thing with the pharoh hat on looks silly. I'll stand in my comic shop and read it and save my money for something better.

[jagtech13]

<<MattFreakinLittle
Junior Member
Member # 487
posted October 30, 2002 08:36 PM
-------------------------------
If this is in the scope of 'Infinty Gauntlet,' then count me in. I really want Starlin to prove that he still has the knack to tell a cosmic story. Didn't pick up 'Infinty Abyss,' anyone wanna say how that was??? >>

First time posting. In regards to how was Infinity Abyss? Hmm, standard Starlin in many ways, fairly pedestrian Marvel cross-over in a number of others (Why add Spidey in it at all?). More for older fans with long memories, I suppose. It's a good read, though I can only give it a luke warm recommendation. Been there, done that I suppose if you've been around the block (or comic box) a few times.

[fournwah]

I was extremely underwhelmed by Infinity Abyss. It was very much a "by the numbers" book, both storywise and art. Actually, excluding Gauntlet, the entire Infinity series was pretty lame. Very cheesy 70's-80's type material.

Don't get me wrong. I believe there's room for all types of storytelling in comics. I happen to prefer super hero stories. I often go back and reread different batches of books from the 80's. I just don't feel like Starlin has prgressed at all in his writing. He seems to retell the same stories with a different spin on it. Maybe it's the fact he always has to include Thanos and Adam Warlock that bothers me.

This just isn't for me.

[TheNomad]

[quote]Originally posted by Monkey in a Wheelchair:
<strong>They could just re-release 'Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe' and call it 'The End of the Marvel Universe.' Or get a flashier artist to redraw it, for the kids.
-- chip</strong><hr></blockquote>

If their going to do that, why not just do the original destruction of the Marvel Universe, "Fred Hembeck Destroys the marvel Universe." Funniest comic EVER. And that artwork would be great for kids. :D

[Taylor Porter]

This was the kind of stuff that, when Quesada took over, I hoped I'd never have to see again.

Seriously, this news distresses me more than all the Marvilles, planned controversies, no-overprint policies (and whatever else) combined.

I know that Starlin can produce fine work, but this just looks so pointless. I can't see why older fans would be interested in a story that looks like something they've read a million times before. And I doubt newer fans will be that intrigued either. Given a choice, I think I'd rather read Ultimate Adventures, and I really don't like that book.

[Reloaded]

I'd love to see "The End of The Marvel Universe" but not by this team. As was posted earlier, this is the gazillionth time Starlin has covered this ground. I wish to God that he would just LET THIS GO. How about more Breed, Jim? That, I would like to see.

Why isn't Grant Morrison writing this?

[Robotsurfer]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>
Seriously, this news distresses me more than all the Marvilles, planned controversies, no-overprint policies (and whatever else) combined.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't understand what's so distressing about this, It's just a what if? story with no reprocussions in the regular Marvel Universe. I think it's a fun idea.

[Cadecus]

"...based on the creative conceit that they're the "last" stories told about Marvel's biggest icons..."

Heh. "creative conceit". Nice mistake there. ;)

[paulski]

Well, Infinity Abyss was enjoyable enough for me that I'll pick up the first few issues of this mini.

Normally I try to avoid Marvel mini-series like the plague these days, but Starlin's artwork in Abyss made that story worth the admission price. One of the few 'old breed' who's shown he's still got it.

[blind3rdeye]

This sounds like a pretty cool idea to me.
I think I'll check em out. :D

[Dan20]

Geez, Starlin sure is obsessed with Thanos.

Anyways, this seems like it could be a fun series. I'll probably check it out.

[Daniel Harvey]

[quote]Originally posted by Cadecus:
<strong>"...based on the creative conceit that they're the "last" stories told about Marvel's biggest icons..."

Heh. "creative conceit". Nice mistake there. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think that was a mistake. One definiton of conceit (which is synomous to "concept") is "organizing theme."

Not trying to be a jerk or anything. Sorry if it comes off like that... certainly not my intent.

[Daniel Harvey]

I thought Karnak looked different than that now. Do the Marvel Knight series not count as contiunity or is that a goof or am I wrong?

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by Robotsurfer:
<strong>

I don't understand what's so distressing about this, It's just a what if? story with no reprocussions in the regular Marvel Universe. I think it's a fun idea.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My distress comes not from the from the repurcussions; I wouldn't really care all that much if this was in continuity. I just think it looks like a bad story. It looks like Starlin's doing stuff that he's already done, in a way that has been done before. It looks too much like "Old Marvel" to me, and by that I mean Marvel when it was bad. Was Bob Harras the editor on this? If this series came out in 1993 and I was still 13, I'd probably buy every issue. I just hoped that the "New Marvel," wouldn't be doing stories like this.

[KingStalin]

Actually all the infinity series except for the last one was done when Tom DeFalco was editor in chief. Anyway this project looks great as Thanos would make sense as the one vilian to end the entire marvel universe.

[Wade @ Sighnub.com]

Starlin has earned my respect as both artist and writer. He may not do cool existential, fourth wall, I am a superhero and a drug addict stories. But he never fails to disappoint in the art department and he writes cosmic better than almost anyone.

[Chris Partin]

I don't know. I think having Starlin on this project is promising, but I'm not sure. Guess I'll have to wait and see...

- Uncle Chris

[danzo]

hmm, what do i think? "yawn" as many have pointed out, Mr. Starlin has covered this ground many, many times before, and like Claremont and Morisson (whom i still love reading) he really needs to come up with some new themes; heck, he's even used Akenaeton (or however you want to creatively spell that old egyptian god's name) before- anyone remember the "Metamorphosis Odyssey"? i mean i love egyptian mythology too, but there is more to the world.... and why does he have to use Death and Thanos (and the Lords Chaos and Order, Living Tribunal, In-Betweener and Eternity)in everything anyways? Jim, i love your art (stiffness and all) but please, come up with some new ideas! i seriously think it's this constant re-treading that's driven so many of us older fans away from comics these days.... how about an end that was so swift, devastating and nigh-unstoppable that the ol' usual cosmic-types didn't have the chance to get involved? sigh.

[DarthRandall]

I guess I'm guilty of doing what so many readers do- buy a creator's work based on his best work, hoping he (or she) will hit those highs again. I've read Starlin's Infinity saga and thought Gauntlet was the best, not only of the saga, but one of the best all-time Marvel stories.

Based on that and the fact that, when he's on, Starlin is an awesome read, I'll be picking this up. Plus, you have to admit, he does write the best Thanos.

[Cadecus]

[quote]Originally posted by Daniel Harvey:
<strong>

I don't think that was a mistake. One definiton of conceit (which is synomous to "concept") is "organizing theme."

Not trying to be a jerk or anything. Sorry if it comes off like that... certainly not my intent.</strong><hr></blockquote>

S'okay, I'm a big boy and you have a valid point. I read it again after my initial post and realize that "conceit" was a suitable and even preferable choice.

I just found it particularly humorous considering current creators' habits of taking liberties with characters to fit a story they want to tell.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to cry myself to sleep over the mistake. ;)

[danzo]

of, course, i've been reading Starlin's stuff since the early/mid 70's so i might just buy it anyway...i'm such a sucker for those "everyone and the kitchen sink" stories...
oh, and for that post-er who follows my first one, if you thought Infinity Gauntlet was good, you should check out Starlin's Warlock from the 70's- it's way better, definately one of the best "cosmic" stories ever- and the place where Starlin introduced Thanos, Death, and all the themes he's been playing with for nearly 30 years... Marvel should put that out as a trade.

[Hdefined]

HOT DAMN!

THanos is one of my all-time favorite characters. I loved Infinity Gauntlet and the Thanos Quest preceding it. Although Infinity Abyss wasn't nearly as wide in scope, it was still pretty fun, with some cool scenes like the psychic battle and the multiple Thanos', and a great revelation that *SPOILER* Thanos has given up his obsession with Death. this was always the core of the character's motivations. I'm interested to see what he's moved on to.

I don't mind Starlin's art. Why his Warlock looked a little weird, everything else looked classic but kinetic. I'm glad Warlock isn't once again the focus of the series, not that he isn't a good character, I'd just rather a purely Thanos-driven storyline. Plus I'm a sucker for those alternate universes.

With all the urban/crime/no-costumes crap coming out of New Marvel these days, it's good to see some good old-fashioned cosmic-fate-of-the-universe-super-hero-orgy-end-of-the-existence stories. ROCK ON!

[OM]

...Hell, I want Sergio Aragones to draw Groo Destroys The Marvel Universe, with inks by Stan Sakai and something by Mark Evanier.

[Bryan Harris]

Well, I don't know if this mini will feature anything you can't get from a randomly chosen issue of What If?, but that preview art looks awfully nice; Milgrom does a nice job of evening out Starlin's usual weaknesses (skewed perspective, bad foreshortening, stiff facial expressions) and I like the thick but meticulous Terry Austin-style blacks.

[Daniel Harvey]

[quote]Originally posted by Bryan Harris:
<strong> ...and I like the thick but meticulous Terry Austin-style blacks.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You hit the nail on the head. I was trying to figure out who that was reminding me of -- good catch. Does Milgrom ever work with Byrne? They might be a good fit together as well.

[Daniel Harvey]

[quote]Originally posted by Cadecus:
<strong>I just found it particularly humorous considering current creators' habits of taking liberties with characters to fit a story they want to tell.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Point well taken. :)

[basement dweller]

I'm not so sure about the story, I think I will take a wait and see approach in that respect, I do however think that the cover looks preety sweet.

[AllAboutMe]

Really. Who keeps greenlighting these Starlin projects? Infinity Gauntlet was decent (nearly ruined by Perez not finishing it and having the timely yet awful Ron Lim finish it..as well as killing trees with Infinity War) but come on, Jim!
We get it. You are really into your sole Darkseid doppleganger Thanos. Time to move on.
Sadly Starlin's artwork is way past it's prime and his writing is getting there.
How many times do we hear the powers-that-be at Marvel say how they are reducing titles, not putting out so much crap...blah blah and then things like this or some crummy X projet comes out? Please stop.

[TemporalFlux]

Infinity Abyss lived up to its name (abyssmal)...but at least the pictures were pretty. That's the only thing that interests me in another Thanos story directly after...pretty pictures.

[pmpknface]

"In Starlin I trust."

I'll buy this in either issues or the inevitable tpb.

[James Busbee]

If you want a look at what Starlin is truly capable of, check out the FIRST monster Thanos/Warlock throwdown, long before Infinity-o-rama kicked in. The story--from sometime in the late '70s--took place in Warlock's regular series, plus an Avengers annual and a Marvel Two-In-One Annual, and was both epic (an armada of spaceships that blotted out the sun) and human (Spider-Man's terror at not being able to measure up against a god like Thanos). It's been collected a few times since then, and could be had for maybe five bucks total.

It's well worth the look--something about those Seventies/early Eighties Marvel epics (like the Kree-Skrull War, the Phoenix saga) just sticks with you--you never get the sense that they're just moneymaking crossovers.

[Kevin T. Brown]

Since it's Jim Starlin's artwork, odds are I'll be buying this book. (God, I feel so much like a lemming by doing so...) But, as a great many have already mentioned, this storyline is well past its prime. Starlin's writing feels very much like it's stuck in the late 80's-early 90's. Don't get me wrong, I've always loved his stuff, but it's time for it to grow....

[Davy]

The artwork does look nice (I liked how the Quitely X-Men LOOKED like the Quitely X-Men), but this project reminds me quite a bit of the Marvel of the 90s, the types of projects which ultimately drove me away from Marvel for 10 years. It's only in the past two years that I've slowly made my way back to a few Marvel books. This one won't be drawing me in any deeper.

[Grendel Prime]

Am I the only person who thinks the art looks good... IF it were art from 20 years ago?

I thought the Starlin/Milgrom classic 70's look worked great for the those classic 70's-style "Infinity" stories. But this is supposed to be the modern Marvel universe. So it should look modern, in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with the art from a technical standpoint, it just doesn't have any of the style the current stable of Marvel artists (Bagley, JRJr, Quitely, Cassaday, etc.) exhibit on a continual basis.

Seriously, almost every aspect of this project appeals to me in a major way, except the artwork. And I feel that the art alone is what will keep this project from being a seller.

[Clem Snide]

Here's another vote for a trade collection of Starlin's original Warlock series.

Especially good was the story '1,000 Clowns' where Starlin satirised "Len Teans" and "Jan Hatroomi" (he was into anagrams that month).

These days, it would be "Sam Jellib" and "Jaques Sadoe", of course.

[daisyed99]

just give starlin a chance. if you're not satisfied by leafing thru the book in the store don't buy it. two quick things: 1)you may want to pick up the original dreadstar run in epic illustrated (1-10) to see where this may be headed. 2)does anyone know why starlin wasn't satisfied with the omega storyline from losh that he requested his name be changed on? i've always wondered.

[DrCool976]

Starlin hasn't done anything worth reading since Infinity Gauntlet. I never forgave him for making the Silver Surfer a supporting character in his own book by dragging up his tired, retread 70's characters he fittingly killed off decades before.

After Abyss, he has lost the benefit of the doubt. The main antagonist at the end of the issue was a Thanos-clone mixed with Galactus' DNA. DNA? Since when is Galactus a carbon based life-form?

I also really wish he would stop trying to make Thanos relevant in the Marvel U when the character ran his course after Gauntlet.

Whoever keeps letting him put pencil to paper for these crappy minis featuring the Thanos and Warlock Show, needs to be forced to actually read this crapola.

Let’s hope this is “The End” of the garbage throwaways we have to endure from him in the future.

[Greg Geren]

Marvel can make all of the Jim Starlin Thanos books they want, and as long as he keeps up his great cosmic storytelling, I'll be along for the ride. It doesn't look like I'm alone in this either.

I have a lot of trouble with people dismissing this series as a retread of previous Starlin stuff when all they've seen is a handful of black-and-white pages and a rough plot overview. Sure, it has Thanos and Death and Warlock and all of those characters, but Starlin created those characters, and his books are about the only place you can read about them anymore. Starlin on any of those characters is superior to anyone else I've seen, because he understands them. Mark Waid and Steve Englehart, writers who have put out a lot of books that I really enjoy have both proved inadequate to writing Thanos. Dan Jurgens as well. Not even going into the 90's era when Marvel would let anyone write the Starlin stable of characters EXCEPT Jim Starlin.

Another gripe is the notion that Starlin needs to update his style to be like Cassaday or JRJR or Bagley or Hitch or any of the contemporary hot artists -- No, he doesn't. His style is a classic. At the same time, it has matured over the years, but it's still recognizably Jim Starlin, unlike other artists like Keith Giffen who have had so many distinct styles over the years. I'd imagine if you asked many of the contemporaries, they'd list Starlin as an influence on their story telling.

Sure this book may be targeted at the long-time reader, but we are still a significant percentage in the market, and after all of the stuff Marvel has been doing for the newbies, it's about time they put out more stuff for us.

Greg

[Mike Cruz]

[quote]Originally posted by danzo:
heck, he's even used Akenaeton (or however you want to creatively spell that old egyptian god's name) before- anyone remember the "Metamorphosis Odyssey"? ]<hr></blockquote>

I wondered this myself. Is Starlin suggesting that the Marvel Universe will become in which Vanth Dreadstar will inhabit, and later be destroyed by the Infinity Horn?

Will the Infinity Gauntlet be fashioned to become the Horn?

I will always read what Starlin puts out. I agree in part that some of the stuff is over hashed. Like, how many time must Thanos face defeat before throwing in the towel. I'd be really amazed if "The Mad Titan" did something other than try to destroy the universe or take Death out on a date.

But there's some quality, I can't put my finger on it, that still draws my attention to his stuff. Perhaps its the introspection characteristic he uses in his characterizations, etc., but I still think he's a good story teller.

[saiyanspider]

you know what is BS. all these complaints that Jim starlin uses warlock and thanos in everything he writes. DUH he created them why are you
$#!ting on the man for wanting to work with characters he created. people don't complain about Erik Larson working on dragon for 100 plus issues. the complaint about using order and chaos they are the rulers if you will, of the marvel universe so it makes sense for them to show up every so often. god people make no sense some times.

[Greg Geren]

Oh, and I forgot to mention --

Tom Brevoort is the best editor at Marvel. He's about the last gasp of hope for the long-time reader of the Marvel Universe. Oh, I absolutely enjoy a lot of the new stuff coming out of Marvel, but I still require a healthy dose of classic storytelling with real heroes. B&J need to keep this man happy, so he may produce many more comics for me to enjoy.

Greg

[Nothus]

The presence of the "Akhenaten" character is a dead giveaway that Starlin is regurgitating and recycling ideas of his that antedate the endless Infinity Gauntlet permutations by a decade.

A character with the same exact name (Akhenaten) and psuedo-Eyptian-pointy-nosed-alien/diety appearance headlined Starlin's Metamorphosis Saga which ran in Epic Illustrated. In it, he destroyed the known universe "to save it."

"It's dead, Jim." Time for new ideas and time to stop doing the exact same all-star cast work is ending effluvia for every story - our interests are supposed to broaden as we grow older, no? This obsession with the same theme over and over again more than borders on the onanistic.....

[Greg Geren]

[quote]Originally posted by Nothus:
<strong>The presence of the "Akhenaten" character is a dead giveaway that Starlin is regurgitating and recycling ideas of his that antedate the endless Infinity Gauntlet permutations by a decade.

A character with the same exact name (Akhenaten) and psuedo-Eyptian-pointy-nosed-alien/diety appearance headlined Starlin's Metamorphosis Saga which ran in Epic Illustrated. In it, he destroyed the known universe "to save it."

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Might it be possible that THE END could tell a different story?

EPIC ILLUSTRATED was technically a Marvel title, and the Akhenaten is therefore a Marvel character. Now Starlin wants this character to interact with his other characters. In this new series, Akhenaten wants to remake the universe, OK thats his M.O.-- just like Thanos wanting to destroy the universe (which he got over) or Doom wanting to rule the world or Luthor wanting to destroy Superman. Just because it has this old character in it doesn't mean it will be a retread of the old story.

Oh, and if any of you are interested -- Oklahoma could use a few good precogs as weathermen.

Greg

[Kon-EL]

The End Books I'd like to see:

Fantastic Four by John Byrne
X-Men by Claremont and Lee (yeah right)
Spider-Man by McFarlane (double ha)

[Buzzowl]

Current Marvel Continuity? We could very well be discussing the Great Pumpkin. See, there IS no Current Marvel Continuity.

In Thor, Asgard is hovering over New York. And Thor has declared Asgard rulers of the world.

In the Avengers...waitaminnit...The Avengers are current policers of the world.

In the FF, no one seems to even notice that any of this is going on.

Over in the Max books, which take great pains to assure us that they are out of continuity, Daredevil and Alias are doing a crossover IN continuity.

In Black Panther, Black Panther is dead. In the Avengers, Black Panther is alive and well as a member. No one over in the Black Panther comic has thought to check Avengers Mansion.

WTF?

To get a comic book that portrays the MU as a consistent universe, they have to actually set it OUT OF CONTINUITY?!?!

I'm not asking for the crazy (and expensive and lackluster) crossovers of yore. But one important and valuable element of the whole Marvel line is being lost. Maybe Quesada ought to spend less time on 60 Minutes VIII and more time actually Editing In Chief.

[dgmagill]

[quote]Originally posted by Buzzowl:
<strong>Current Marvel Continuity? We could very well be discussing the Great Pumpkin. See, there IS no Current Marvel Continuity.

In Thor, Asgard is hovering over New York. And Thor has declared Asgard rulers of the world.

In the Avengers...waitaminnit...The Avengers are current policers of the world.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah, but Lord Thor (in the new costume) has shown up in Avengers #56 and #59, so the inference is that these Avengers stories take place before Asgard appears over New York. Plus, you have seen the report about the "crossover" in February, where the Thor-Iron Man-Cap fight happens, right?

[quote]Originally posted by Buzzowl:
<strong>Over in the Max books, which take great pains to assure us that they are out of continuity, Daredevil and Alias are doing a crossover IN continuity.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bendis has always said that Alias is IN continuity.

[quote]Originally posted by Buzzowl:
<strong>In Black Panther, Black Panther is dead. In the Avengers, Black Panther is alive and well as a member. No one over in the Black Panther comic has thought to check Avengers Mansion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Black Panther is not dead - the ending of #49 shows that he has vanished from Wakanda. There is rumor that he is dead. All Avengers appearances are likely to happen after the conclusion of the current BP storyline, "Black and White".

Continuity is not dead, just a little harder to find. Tom Breevort is a master of this, we just need to trust him.

DGM

[Nothus]

"Might it be possible that THE END could tell a different story?
EPIC ILLUSTRATED was technically a Marvel title, and the Akhenaten is therefore a Marvel character. "
No to both, I'd say.
No, everything in Epic Illustrated Magazine was CREATOR-OWNED, a la Heavy Metal which it was an emulation of. Metamorphosis Odyssey was the prequel to Dreadstar.
Jim tells the same story over and over again, so it being the same story again is a moot point.

[Nat Gertler]

[quote]Originally posted by saiyanspider:
<strong>you know what is BS. all these complaints that Jim starlin uses warlock and thanos in everything he writes. DUH he created them </strong><hr></blockquote>No. Warlock first appeared under that name in Marvel Premiere #1, written by Roy Thomas and drawn by Gil Kane. However, that was just a renaming of the character Him, who first appeared in Fantastic Four 66. That's right, boys and girls, Kirby & Lee strike again!

[Greg Geren]

[quote]Originally posted by Nothus:
<strong>"Might it be possible that THE END could tell a different story?
EPIC ILLUSTRATED was technically a Marvel title, and the Akhenaten is therefore a Marvel character. "
No to both, I'd say.
No, everything in Epic Illustrated Magazine was CREATOR-OWNED, a la Heavy Metal which it was an emulation of. Metamorphosis Odyssey was the prequel to Dreadstar.
Jim tells the same story over and over again, so it being the same story again is a moot point.</strong><hr></blockquote>

First point, I give you that one.

I have read a lot of Starlin (just getting started collecting DREADSTAR, so I'm behind there) but I haven't seen him telling the same story over and over again. INFINITY GAUNTLET was different from WARLOCK. INFINITY WAR was different from GAUNTLET. The INFINITY books from the 80's-90's were all about the Infinity Gems to some extent, but they were more focused on the different aspects of the Warlock character. I look at those three series as telling one large story, which they did, in three parts. INFINITY ABYSS had little relation to the other INFINITY books other than some of the characters utilized. Maybe I'm not reading them as deeply as the rest of you have, or maybe I'm reading deeper, but I just don't see the argument that Jim Starlin tells the same story over and over.

Greg

[Refleshed]

Well, that's for each of his own, cause, I for one, was hoping for another one of these stories. I always liked them, the Secret Wars, Infinity War/Crusada, and now, the End. It's been a while since Marvel did such a thing, so I can understand WHY they're doing it. I mean, with all the movies coming up, this is another way of introducing new readers to their favorite movie character into the comic.

Not that I would need such a thing, cause I read X-Men for, like, 8 years or so, but I think I'm gonna buy these 6 series. (depends if my Heroclix is complete by then!).

[Pared2]

Quick question. Any idea who those two characters are in the X-Men scene behind Bishop and Gambit???

[Psivage]

I want to say Namor and Starfox. But I doubt it. Maybe they are from Extreme X-Men, which I don't collect.

[Buzzowl]

dgmagill,

I dunno. If you have to work that hard for it, it's not really true to the spirit of a coherent universe. When Little Billy picks up a copy of the Avengers and really loves Black Panther, he's going to be pretty befuddled when he picks up the Black Panther book.

One big appeal of comics for me was that I was discovering a whole WORLD of characters and it was very easy to believe that the FF and the X-Men shared the same setting.

I don't think it's that easy to believe anymore. Especially now. Even if you can sort of justify things here and there, Marvel still doesn't promote the type of continuity that really makes it fun.

I mean...Alias is IN continuity. But she's also spending time with the MAX version of Power Man, who is OUT of continuity?

Of course BP's not really dead. This is Marvel. But he is certainly far from missing over in Avengers-land. Yes, there's always the old "after the current storyline" trick. We'll see if it holds up when the storylines are both over.

And this only applies to the Avengers-type comics right?

The Defenders took over the world recently for like 6 issues and no one noticed in their own comics. (No one noticed at the Comic Shops either <g>) The X-Men and their ilk seem like an entirely separate universe.

Iron Man has revealed his identity. In his title, it was a big deal. In the Avengers, it was mentioned. In other titles, the revelation that a world-famous superhero is also a world-famous industrialist doesn't even register as a blip.

The same is true for Daredevil.

Did Daredevil notice that Iron Man revealed his identity? Vice Versa? You'd think they might.

I dunno. Big things are happening in a lot of titles, nowadays. Stories are larger scale. But they don't seem so big if you read multiple marvel titles every month, because they only seem to matter in one book.

[J.C. Bakken]

I'm back, babies!

I really can't belive anyone hasn't mentioned the obvious joke here. Jim Starlin is Infinite. It's actually a contradiction that his is writing "The End". :D

Buuut, enough about my bad jokes.
What I am wondering about is; I've never read anything "Infinite" so my question to you my fellow posters is: In what order do I read them, when did they come out, are they collected(Don't think they are, but I have to ask) and what other comics should I get as well in the search for the "Infinite"

Now Playing: Dream Theater - Falling Into Infinity

[Robert Menard]

I will sure read it. I liked the Infinity Abyss mini. I do hope Warlock will be in this one also.
Starlin is one of my favorite artists. Wyrd, the reluctant warrior was one of his best work.

I don't see why people are coming down on Starlin beacuse he is using Thanos as a character or using similar themes he already has. How is it something bad for Starlin to use Thanos in a limited series once in a while and good for other writers to use the same character in an ongoing series ? I would also had that EVERY writer, songwriter, filmmaker, etc. has in his career a bunch of favorite themes that they put different spins on them in their work.

So, I am looking forward to this series and how Starlin will tackle this issue of Death this time.

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by J.C. Bakken:
<strong>
I've never read anything "Infinite" so my question to you my fellow posters is: In what order do I read them, when did they come out, are they collected(Don't think they are, but I have to ask) and what other comics should I get as well in the search for the "Infinite"
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I may be wrong about this, because I know longer have any of these issues, but I'll give it a try.

It all started around 1990 or 91. The first important part was theThanos Quest, a two part series by Starlin and Ron Lim. It details Thanos' creation of the Infinity Gauntlet. These issues have definitely been collected. (Actually, before this, Thanos was reincarnated in Silver Surfer by the same creative team, in some issues that were also collected in a TPB.) Thanos hung around some more in Surfer's title, showing off the Gauntlet. This led to The Infinity Gauntlet, a six-issue series by written by Starlin and drawn by George Perez (for about four issues) and Ron Lim. Most Marvel titles also featured tie-ins.

After this, the ongoing series Warlock and the Infinity Watch was launched, by Starlin and Angel Medina. The next six-issue series was The Infinity War by Starlin and Lim. As far as I know, this was never collected. This was also accompanied by tie--ins. This all also applies to The Infinity Crusade. By this time (about 1993) they had also launched another spin-off series called The Warlock Chronicles. Warlock's two titles lasted untill the purges of 1995-96.

Then, in the past year or two, there was the Infinity Abyss, and I don't know a thing about that one.

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by Robert Menard:
<strong>
I don't see why people are coming down on Starlin beacuse he is using Thanos as a character or using similar themes he already has. How is it something bad for Starlin to use Thanos in a limited series once in a while and good for other writers to use the same character in an ongoing series ?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't speak for the others, but I think this story looks like "seen it all before" not because of the characters, but just for the whole concept.
It's not even so much that this project looks like other stuff Starlin has done, just that it reminds me of the kind of book Marvel used to put out all the time. From the days of the Contest of Champions and Secret Wars to the Onslaught stuff, Marvel was always squeezing all of their characters together in crossovers and epic "end of the world" mini-series. This new project, in idea, style, and execution reminds me too much of those stupid storylines that Marvel used to truck out about once a year for fifteen years.

[danzo]

[quote]Originally posted by DrCool976:
[QB].
After Abyss, he has lost the benefit of the doubt. The main antagonist at the end of the issue was a Thanos-clone mixed with Galactus' DNA. DNA? Since when is Galactus a carbon based life-form?
QB]<hr></blockquote>hoo-hah! as that Abyss series, was one of the many i've missed in the few years i stopped buying comics (extreme poverty, not lack of interest) i was thinking of scouting it out, thanks for the info, now i can safely pass it up and put my still very limited funds elsewhere. Galactus DNA indeed! sigh, is basic science really so hard to grasp? that's worse than Wolverine's de-metallized claws suddenly quadrupaling in width.... or this recent obsession with "hard-light" and nano-technologies- concepts that are rooted in real science, but obviously woefully misunderstood by the creators who keep throwing them into the mix.

[danzo]

[quote]Originally posted by saiyanspider:
you know what is BS. all these complaints that Jim starlin uses warlock and thanos in everything he writes. DUH he created them why are you
$#!ting on the man for wanting to work with characters he created. people don't complain about Erik Larson working on dragon for 100 plus issues. the complaint about using order and chaos they are the rulers if you will, of the marvel universe so it makes sense for them to show up every so often. god people make no sense some times.<hr></blockquote>no, the point is not the using of the characters per se, it's that every single time he uses them it's to tell this "End of All" type of story; i'd have no problem with Starlin telling the on-going adventures of Warlock (who, as has been pointed out, is actually a Lee/Kirby creation recreated by Thomas and the god-like Gil Kane) and i have no problem with "End of All" type stories per se, it's just that every time Starlin's done one, it's been basically the same thing, only the outer dressing changes. do something original, i mean, how likely is it that a demi-god type from the Sol System is likely to figure so prominently in Universal affairs? how about those Shi-Ar gods, Sharra and Kythri? the largest known empire in the MU was built by their worshippers, you'd think they might actually show up in one of these epics.... the point is, these re-hashes are simply not very creative.
look at it this way; remember back at the end of Infinity Gauntlet ( or thereabouts) when Thanos was just gonna hang it up and sit around watching the sunset? how about an on-going series with that as the starting point; get Grant Morrison or Garth Ennis to write it- someone with that sort of inventive off-beat view- imagine the possibilities, a cosmic "invisibles" or "preacher" as it were. that would be fun. and interesting. and most importantly, FRESH!
oh, and two more bits; first Erik hasn't been telling the same story for those 100-plus issues, second, Lord Chaos and Master Order are not the rulers of the MU, they're only in charge of balance, Eternity is supposed to be the big kahuna. yer right, people make no sense sometimes. ;)

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by MattFreakinLittle:
<strong>Didn't pick up 'Infinty Abyss,' anyone wanna say how that was???</strong><hr></blockquote>

I liked the art a lot, but found the writing somewhat impenetrable, and didn't find all that much to make me care about the characters.

- Elayne

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
<strong>Am I the only person who thinks the art looks good... IF it were art from 20 years ago?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, but I'd ask you to consider that some art doesn't necessarily date. I'd be much more suspicious of the "hot artist of the moment" trends than of people who've drawn consistently well for decades.

- Elayne

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Buzzowl:
<strong>Current Marvel Continuity? We could very well be discussing the Great Pumpkin. See, there IS no Current Marvel Continuity.

In Thor, Asgard is hovering over New York. And Thor has declared Asgard rulers of the world.

In the Avengers...waitaminnit...The Avengers are current policers of the world.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, give that one a couple months and it'll be brought together in the 3-part Davis-pencilled crossover. (Hey Michael, now that the November Previews is out, any chance of reposting that article?)

- Elayne

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by dgmagill:
<strong>Plus, you have seen the report about the "crossover" in February, where the Thor-Iron Man-Cap fight happens, right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Um, January. You can order 'em now from the November issue of Previews. Iron Man may technically be returnable since Previews has the wrong inker listed, but I highly doubt anyone will want to return any of these. :)

- Elayne (looking at the Iron Man boards as she types this)

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Buzzowl:
<strong>Big things are happening in a lot of titles, nowadays. Stories are larger scale. But they don't seem so big if you read multiple marvel titles every month, because they only seem to matter in one book.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think it's a natural outgrowth of Stan Lee no longer writing and plotting every single title. :)

- Elayne

[Yodamite]

[quote]Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
Am I the only person who thinks the art looks good... IF it were art from 20 years ago?<hr></blockquote>Well, personally I've never been a fan of Starlin's art. If this was twenty years ago, give or take, I'd be much more interested in what Simonson, Byrne, and Perez were doing.

[dvitali]

This is my take on this subject: The Marvel Universe that will be destroy is Earth 2 on the other side of the sun. This also could be the planet Doom that Franklin Richard created. Best quess is earth 2 because it connected to the warlock/thanos series of the animal men (ani-men?) which last known story have the planet going into death shudder. It also could be the universe that Franklin Richard created because the last Doom mini-series that planet was about to be destroy. Since the new Stalin mini series is not in the future but not taking place right now in Marvel universe but not in a sense in the Marvel universe it make sense to be either Earth2 Marvel Universe or Franklin created Universe.

[paulski]

I'd just like to point out that, even if I wasn't getting this for any other reason, I'd just about about pick it up solely because of Starlin's respect for continuity in the Marvel Universe.

All this talk of his using Thanos reminded me of the little revelation in 'Abyss' that the Thanos that fought Kazar in his most recent series was an imperfect clone.

Sort of explains why jungle boy was able to defeat (and destroy) the guy who once killed half the inhabitants of the known universe... ;)

[littlewolvie]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>

My distress comes not from the from the repurcussions; I wouldn't really care all that much if this was in continuity. I just think it looks like a bad story. It looks like Starlin's doing stuff that he's already done, in a way that has been done before. It looks too much like "Old Marvel" to me, and by that I mean Marvel when it was bad. Was Bob Harras the editor on this? If this series came out in 1993 and I was still 13, I'd probably buy every issue. I just hoped that the "New Marvel," wouldn't be doing stories like this.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Funny, 'cause what you call "old, bad marvel"</b I just consider [b]"good Marvel", while your "new Marvel" doesn't really do it for me. Shows you tastes differ. ;-)

As for the "new Marvel" not doing stories like this... why not? I mean, isn't there room enough for more than one genre, more than one kind of storytelling? Does it all have to be Ultimate and Max, all Ennis, Millar and the likes? I certainly don't hope so.

[J.C. Bakken]

[quote]Originally posted by dvitali:
<strong>This is my take on this subject: The Marvel Universe that will be destroy is Earth 2 on the other side of the sun. This also could be the planet Doom that Franklin Richard created. Best quess is earth 2 because it connected to the warlock/thanos series of the animal men (ani-men?) which last known story have the planet going into death shudder. It also could be the universe that Franklin Richard created because the last Doom mini-series that planet was about to be destroy. Since the new Stalin mini series is not in the future but not taking place right now in Marvel universe but not in a sense in the Marvel universe it make sense to be either Earth2 Marvel Universe or Franklin created Universe.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actully, the Crisis of Some Earths are unfolding right now in the pages of the soon-to-be cancelled Thunderbolts.

If that made no sence, the story of Earth 2's fate is beeing told in the "Becomming Villians" chapters of Thinderbolts. A book I'm loving right now, but resent news have made me think otherwise of the future of the book.