CLAREMONT'S FUTURE: NEW EXCALIBUR, AND YOU CHOOSE

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/xmen/UXMEN472COVER_400a.jpg" width="200" height="297" border="0" align="right">by Benjamin Ong Pang Kean

So, what's new in the X-universe?

According to Marvel Editor-in-Chief Joe Quesada, big changes are a-coming in the pages of the X-books this summer. And it all starts with Ed Brubaker's X-Men: Deadly Genesis limited series. Incidentally, Brubaker will take over the writing chores on Uncanny X-Men from long-time X-writer Chris Claremont later this year.

In a recent Joe Fridays (http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays34.html) installment, Quesada teased: "Did I mention the third Summers brother appears for the first time in a currently running high profile X-Men mini-series written by Ed Brubaker who just got named the new writer on Uncanny X-Men?

"Did I mention that elements of Deadly Genesis are the seeds out of which the Uncanny story will grow?"

So, where does that leave Claremont then? In the same discussion, Quesada said that there are plans for more projects from the living legend. He said: "Chris has done a remarkable job on X-Men over the years and what he’s created will live long after all of us our gone.

"Chris will still be involved with X-verse so you haven’t seen the last of him but we felt that now was a good time to make a change on the core books. Anyone who is in the publishing game is aware of this, it’s part of the business, but it in no way diminishes what Chris has done or created over the years or the undying respect we have for him. It’s just a change that we felt needed to be made in order for us to take the books in a different direction."

While Quesada promised to reveal more in next week's Joe Fridays (http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays34.html), he did confirm the team roster for the "Adjectiveless" X-Men series: "Cable, Mystique, Rogue, Cannonball, Sabretooth, and Iceman..."

Now, Rogue and Iceman are currently featured in Peter Milligan's monthly X-Men series. Cable was a member of Uncanny X-Men during Claremont's "second coming" in early 2000. Cannonball has been a member of the team as well. As for Mystique and Sabretooth, well, the two have been part of the X-Factor series in the 1990s. And Victor Creed played a crucial role in the formation of Generation X during the whole "Phalanx Covenant" saga. However, it should be interesting to see just how well these new additions to the team affect the team's new direction.

Again, the question on everyone's mind now is: what'll happen to Claremont? Isn't he still writing New Excalibur? Well, the X-scribe did reveal a spoiler or two on the ComiX-Fan boards. Firstly, he posted (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?p=1167137#post1167137) that Betsy Braddock aka Psylocke will be appearing in New Excalibur #8.

Also, he touched (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?p=1167479#post1167479) on more upcoming plot points: "FYI -- (afaik) -- since the Hellfire Club seems to be a major element in the forthcoming season of Astonishing, it's effectively off-limits as far as Excalibur is concerned. That said, we have more than enough toys to play with -- between the existing mythology and what's been (and being) established over the first half-dozen issues -- to keep us going for quite a while.

"As currently structured, #'s 4 & 5 constitute an arc, which is meant to bring Lionheart on-stage and also introduce another major player, The Black Prince. Art by Steven Cummings and Rick Ketchum.

"Next, #'s 6 & 7, will be drawn by Michael Ryan (first pages look fantastic). And (this one's for you, Lisa) it's All-About-Black-Tom, and Cain, of course. I also think there's a better than even chance of Dazzler getting killed again, something she's likely to keep trying 'til she gets it right. (And yes, there's a reason and yes we plan to explain it before the year is out.

"#8 is Betsy.

"#'s 9-11 are a projected arc, as are 12-14, but since the green-light for the stories isn't official yet, I will say no more.

"However -- at this juncture, the series has a green-light through #14, which is to say December of this year. If you want to see more issues, ya gotta buy more copies, and badger your local retailer to up-order accordingly. There are some fun stories planned for the months (and dare I say, years) ahead and if you want to read 'em -- well then, you know what to do."

But what about Uncanny X-Men? What has he planned for the current team before he passes on the torch to Brubaker? He said (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?p=1166946#post1166946): "To the best of my knowledge, my final issue on Uncanny is the concluding issue of the "First Fallen" arc, with Chris Bachalo, #474. Rachel will be staying in Uncanny, Betsy will not."

So, there you have it. In summary, Chris Claremont will be leaving Uncanny X-Men, to be replaced by X-Men: Deadly Genesis writer Ed Brubaker. Rachel Summers will still be a part of the Uncanny team, though the recently resurrected Psylocke will be leaving the title. The latter appears in New Excalibur #8.

New Excalibur is safe until at least issue #14, which is scheduled for December.

X-Men's team will consist of the following team members: Cable, Mystique, Rogue, Cannonball, Sabretooth, and Iceman.

Finally, there's a poll (http://www.marvel.com/publishing/stories/showstory.htm?id=56) currently going on at Marvel.com where fans are given a chance to determine what 6-issue X-Men mini-series Claremont will tackle after X-Men: The End.

There are:
Days of Future Past - This series would pick up the moment after Kitty Pryde sent Rachel Grey into the past from the original story. The world is under the rule of Sentinels, most mutants are either killed or in camps, and only a strange alliance of outlaws stand a chance at changing this dark future.

Asgardian War Stories - During the Asgardian War, the X-Men, Alpha Flight, and the New Mutants all fought alongside the Norse Gods. But what would have happened if they never returned to Earth and stayed in Asgard?

neXt - Witness today’s generation of X-Men if the Marvel Universe aged in real-time. Both the first and second teams of X-Men are approaching 50 and the New Mutants are now in their thirties. This series will follow this new generation of X-Men and the new reality they find themselves in.

What If? X-Men - Continuing from 2004’s What If Magneto and Professor X Had Formed the X-Men Together?, this series would be a re-imagining of the X-Men in contemporary times from an entirely all-new perspective. Because of Magneto helping found the X-Men, not only has the history of the X-Men changed, but that of the entire world. Every character’s life and future is up for grabs here.

At the time of this posting, neXt is leading the rest with 33 per cent out of the over 19,000 votes so far.

Check back later this week for a chat with Brubaker, and more X-Talk in this week’s <i>Joe Fridays</i>.

[sequart]

There isn't enough work with a fantasy bent coming from Marvel so I would love to see this.

Although, this neXt concept is pretty interesting...

[Egg]

Originally posted by MattBrady
As currently structured, #'s 4 & 5 constitute an arc, which is meant to bring Lionheart on-stage and also introduce another major player, The Black Prince. Art by Steven Cummings and Rick Ketchum.

I've had a chance to see some of Steven's pages for New Excalibur over at his forum on PaperFilms.com (http://www.paperfilms.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=1435) and he's knocking'em out of the park! His renditions of the team are good, good, good! I’m looking forward to those issues! :)

[ghostly1]

Uh... wasn't this 'What should Claremont tackle next' poll done, like, months ago? What, did they just toss out the results of that and are trying again, or is it still going on from way back when?

[lordlad]

That was a really a nice way to say 'Chris, you're fired'.......

Seriously, as much as Claremont 'the legend' has wrote classics such as 'Days of future past', 'God loves, men kills' and 'Dark Phoenix saga', the stuffs he is writing now is more like a 'day job'.....

Ed Brubaker will be a breath of fresh air though.......hopefully he can do the 'thing' like he did with Captain America.

[algertman]

I've really enjoy Deadly Genesis so far, and can't wait for the Brubakers X-Book. It will be nice to have one good "X" book that won't hit delay hell after a few issues

[the hungry w]

well, i voted neXt before, and i'm gonna do it again now..

[kilroy]

I wish this could get me to go back to the x universe but it isnt. Its a matter of a little too late for me. I was brought back in when morrison came aborad and that actually brought me back to marvel in a big way after giving up marvel as whole in the middle of the 90's. I was suprised to find myself caring about the xmen again. And I know I'm in the miniority on this one but I felt that what Chuck Austen was doing was in the same vain as Morrrison it was a different refreshing take on the mutants. Then Morrison left Austen was fired and the xmen were brought back to status Quo with claremont and I was back to the early 90's no longer caring about the charcaters as they became one dimensional again. I like ed but so far deadly Genesis is putting me to sleep. Thank god for X factor the best x book out now. And astonshing whenever it is out as much as I like Whedon and the book. Lets be honest. He knows the characters and the dialogue is just outrageous, the art is stunning but what has really happened in 12 issues. two storylines. One where yet agian the dead is now alive and the danger room got pissed. More happened in 6 issues of morrisons run. I know all the morrison haters are going to start lighting there torches now but I liked his concepts. I miss beak, angel, the cucokds, The u men, a more real jean grey ( only thing i didnt like about his run killing her off.) Scott having a persoanlity. and wolverine being part of an ensemble and not the center of the universe. Depending on how deadly gen. plays out maybe i will try uncanny again but xmen gave up after milligans second arc. And I love Milligan but hes not doing it for me on the book and with that new lineup I really have no interest

[pifpog]

Originally posted by MattBrady

It’s just a change that we felt needed to be made in order for us to take the books in a different direction."

While Quesada promised to reveal more in next week's Joe Fridays (http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays34.html), he did confirm the team roster for the "Adjectiveless" X-Men series: "Cable, Mystique, Rogue, Cannonball, Sabretooth, and Iceman..."


First Juggernaut, now Sabertooth and Mystique on regular X-teams? I miss the days when villians were... well, the opposition. Besides, they already had Sabertooth as a pseudo-member of the team awhile back and that ended... badly. Hard to believe anyone around during that time would let it happen again.

[LostAndFoundFan]

Didn't they already do the 'What if the X-Men had stayed in Asgard?' What If, Vol. 3, number 13 or 14, IIRC. As for me, neXt sounds like an interesting concept, but I'd rather see a different writer on it.

-Tony!

[User Name]

The only one on there that looks interesting at all to me is neXt.

But as somebody already mentioned, we've seen this poll before!

[Chigurh]

Claremont hasn’t written a decent story in decades, and even those don’t hold up terribly well (writing wise).

Time to retire, old boy – no need to keep (bloody continually!) rehashing the same crap.

I vote None of the Above.
Save the trees.
j

[DeadpoolFX]

I'll vote for nExt. I"m a big fan of Claremont but i think his writing on Uncanny with the exception of the current arc has been nowhere near anything he's done in the past. Brubaker on Uncanny is the best news for and X-Men title i've read in a while. After the first arc Whedon on Astonishing did nothing for me (not even mentioning the delays). Milligan hasn't really impressed me until this current arc on X-men. I'm a huge X-men fan so i read all the x-titles but i'm glad new blood is being put back into the books.

that new line-up could be interesting....

[BlueThunderArmy]

Originally posted by MattBrady
While Quesada promised to reveal more in next week's Joe Fridays, he did confirm the team roster for the "Adjectiveless" X-Men series: "Cable, Mystique, Rogue, Cannonball, Sabretooth, and Iceman..."

I kind of thought he was joking about this...

[dr.no]

Originally posted by Chigurh
Claremont hasn’t written a decent story in decades, and even those don’t hold up terribly well (writing wise).

Time to retire, old boy – no need to keep (bloody continually!) rehashing the same crap.


j

(sigh) Like you would know....:rolleyes:

[rwsmith]

Originally posted by pifpog
First Juggernaut, now Sabertooth and Mystique on regular X-teams? I miss the days when villians were... well, the opposition. Besides, they already had Sabertooth as a pseudo-member of the team awhile back and that ended... badly. Hard to believe anyone around during that time would let it happen again.

Yeah, Sabretooth and Mystique have been tried as good guys before and it didn't really work out.

However, I'm thinking this has a lot to do with the state of the mutant community these days. Their numbers have basically been "decimated," no pun intended, so perhaps even formerly villainous mutants are seeking refuge at the Xavier Institute. Still, I think it's a pretty bad idea to have someone like Victor Creed around a bunch of students. Perhaps this team won't be based out of the mansion, though.

[Thumper]

Originally posted by MattBrady
Quesada teased: "Did I mention the third Summers brother appears for the first time in a currently running high profile X-Men mini-series written by Ed Brubaker who just got named the new writer on Uncanny X-Men

I've been away from the X-books for quite some time, so I'm probably out of the loop on this, but...

Wasn't X-treme supposedly the 3rd Summers brother?

Or had that been resolved in a different manner?

[cyberv]

...I see the "tell him to jump off a cliff" option still isn't available...

(mutters under breath about an awful Fantastic Four run)

Didn't we just HAVE this poll last year?

[rwsmith]

Originally posted by pifpog
First Juggernaut, now Sabertooth and Mystique on regular X-teams? I miss the days when villians were... well, the opposition. Besides, they already had Sabertooth as a pseudo-member of the team awhile back and that ended... badly. Hard to believe anyone around during that time would let it happen again.

Yeah, Sabretooth and Mystique have been tried as good guys before and it didn't really work out.

However, I'm thinking this has a lot to do with the state of the mutant community these days. Their numbers have basically been "decimated," no pun intended, so perhaps even formerly villainous mutants are seeking refuge at the Xavier Institute. Still, I think it's a pretty bad idea to have someone like Victor Creed around a bunch of students. Perhaps this team won't be based out of the mansion, though.

[aceatkins]

That X-Men line-up is honestly terrible. There are maybe two characters--Rogue and Mystique--I'm even mildly interested in. Thanks for helping me trim down my pull list!

[Hawk fan]

Looks like it's time to vote for neXt again. I'd love to see Claremont's take on them to (I'm enjoying The End dang it!)

If people think Claremont is writing badly I can only assume they missed out the Casey (good on Avengers, not so much the X-Men!), Austen and Morrison runs (Morrison had a total of maybe two good ideas!).

Yep definitely going to have to be neXt IMHO.

Cheers.

James.

[NightRiver]

I like Cable on the team. But how the hell can Sabretooth be a good guy?

None of those new ideas for CLaremont interest me.

Id rather he stay on New Excalibur and keep it going. That, along with X-Factor, has has been a good read.

[EmeraldGuy32]

Days of Future Past

[Angelophile]

NeXt gets my vote again too. It sounds the least recycled out of all the options.

I admit to being a little disappointed to see Claremont shufled off the X-books. I was enjoying his Uncanny run. Still, with Excalibur pickingup the mantel of sightly cheesy, mutant-fest, it'll be interesting to see what Brubaker can do.

I'd personally rather have seen Brubaker take over on Adjectiveless and a reshuffle of the teams again to suit everyone. Oh well.

Milligan has a long way to go before his stops disappointing me. I had high expectations for him. Sadly, he's not met them.

[Doug Smith]

Interesting that none of those poll options appear to be in-continuity books. Almost seems like they want to give Chris his own little X-universe to play with to his heart's content, but want him nowhere near the core X-books.

[ALI]

oooooooooo

[Kolimar]

I can't wait for any of this to happen. Looking forward to the stories. :)


Originally posted by MattBrady
Finally, there's a poll (http://www.marvel.com/publishing/stories/showstory.htm?id=56) currently going on at Marvel.com where fans are given a chance to determine what 6-issue X-Men mini-series Claremont will tackle after X-Men: The End.

There are:
Days of Future Past - This series would pick up the moment after Kitty Pryde sent Rachel Grey into the past from the original story. The world is under the rule of Sentinels, most mutants are either killed or in camps, and only a strange alliance of outlaws stand a chance at changing this dark future.

Asgardian War Stories - During the Asgardian War, the X-Men, Alpha Flight, and the New Mutants all fought alongside the Norse Gods. But what would have happened if they never returned to Earth and stayed in Asgard?

neXt - Witness today’s generation of X-Men if the Marvel Universe aged in real-time. Both the first and second teams of X-Men are approaching 50 and the New Mutants are now in their thirties. This series will follow this new generation of X-Men and the new reality they find themselves in.

What If? X-Men - Continuing from 2004’s What If Magneto and Professor X Had Formed the X-Men Together?, this series would be a re-imagining of the X-Men in contemporary times from an entirely all-new perspective. Because of Magneto helping found the X-Men, not only has the history of the X-Men changed, but that of the entire world. Every character’s life and future is up for grabs here.

At the time of this posting, neXt is leading the rest with 33 per cent out of the over 19,000 votes so far.

Check back later this week for a chat with Brubaker, and more X-Talk in this week’s <i>Joe Fridays</i>.

Newsarama's poll on this same subject here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50289)

[Evolution]

um.....STAR LORD. BRING BACK STAR LORD.

have Claremont write some science fiction again. get him off the mutants and maybe he'll regain some of his spark.

[sequart]

Notice how Iceman is listed last on the list of that new X-team. Is he just an afterthought these days?

[Duke Jupiter]

I don't like any of the 4 options listed at Marvel.com. They might as well throw X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 2 as another throwaway idea.

Give Claremont a decent artist who can tell a clear story, a cast of characters that somebody gives a hershey squirt about (whatever DID happen to villains being villains?), a decent editor in the tradition of good ol' Weezie, unshackle his hands and let him rip! The man knows how to write; it's just that he's been hogtied by all the corporate crap associated with the bloated franchise that is X.

Here's an idea - kick Joe off AMAZING SPIDER-MAN and give it to Chris. Couldn't be any worse and it just might be fantastic, especially if you pair him with John Romita Jr. once again. If that don't work, throw Logan in there, too. ;)

- DJ

[sequart]

Also, how much longer will Peter Milligan be writing X-Men?

[thor junior]

i want next to win

[HNutz]

NeXt sounds the best, but I'd probably pick up the Asgard one, too. Thought the What If? was okay... but a lot of it did seem familiar (the evil Cyke, etc.)... but I'm NOT looking forward to MORE Days of Future Past... think some things should be left well alone..

[Not From Around]

Not an X-Fan so I have no deep interest in this, but "NeXt" sounds like the idea with the most possibilities. The success of "Starman" and "JSA" over at DC suggest that there are a lot of fans who like the idea of "generational" superhero stories, where characters get old, retire (or at least have to think seriously about it), and are replaced by proteges. Marvel hasn't offered its fans much in the way of this. "NeXt" sounds like a way to do a little of it. I'm not suprised that it seems to be the leader. I also wouldn't be surprised if it's the one Claremont most wanted to write. It would give him a chance to show characters actually changing over time. Big Two superhero comics writers probably get frustrated now and then over not being able to do more of this.

[BookSpyder]

Originally Posted by Duke Jupiter:
Give Claremont a decent artist who can tell a clear story, a cast of characters that somebody gives a hershey squirt about (whatever DID happen to villains being villains?), a decent editor in the tradition of good ol' Weezie, unshackle his hands and let him rip! The man knows how to write; it's just that he's been hogtied by all the corporate crap associated with the bloated franchise that is X.

Makes perfect sense, Duke. Too bad Marvel Editiorial doesn't have enough sense of any kind to fill a thimble.

You would think that the new Wolverine:Origins title would be a good fit for Claremont, considering how many times he dropped hints about how he would have interpreted Wolverine's past in other interviews. A Wolverine "flashback" title would suit his writing style perfectly and allow him to work with a leaner, non-X supporting cast. It would even keep his impact on current X-continuity to a safe minimum if that was an issue for Editorial.

But no. Instead, they'll give him eight-plus months on another book with almost no real opportunity to develop any fan or sales momentum.

Being mostly done with comic books (no more big-two titles after Infinity Crisis), I'm still amazed that every editor after Louise Jones managed to degrade the franchise so much that I really won't miss buying Uncanny X-Men or any other X-title. But as always I hope things go well for Claremont and I'll be looking for a good reason to pick up a Claremont book.

Peace,
BookSpyder

[SuperStories]

Hi,

I am not that thrilled about the new X-men lineup:

Cable - Has been used all up, he felt created for the situation [Fight with Apoloyspe/Strife] and there is nothing that he can be used for much now that he has met his destiny

Mystique - I definatly like her in the group, though being an X-men will have all sorts of conflict

Rogue - Seems okay if they can refocus and restate her power now with Sunfire, perhaps a slight costume change to accent that she is different

Cannonball - a "Teen Titan" who made the big leage there does not seem much to him other then being a New Mutant who graduated

Sabretooth - I am curious why they are constantly wanting to reform him

Iceman - Didn't he loose his powers, reactivating hos powers with the House of M makes this seem like the miniseries was not important

[DanteHicks1972]

I voted for Days Of Futures Past...I love alternate realities and that one was fantastic...I really didn't like Bacchalo's X run (or any of his runs actually)....the new linup (Mystique, Rogue, Sabertooth, Iceman, Cable & Cannonball) is eye brow raiser it could be pretty interesting, I wonder if HoM affected Sabertooth like it did Wolverine...at least Wolverine isn't on this roster...anyone have any guesses who the 3rd summers brother is?? It appears we've seen him just not in a core title....

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by sequart
There isn't enough work with a fantasy bent coming from Marvel so I would love to see this. Oh yeah. Me too. The original New Mutants/X-Men Asgardian Wars was brilliant and probably the most plain enjoyable piece Claremont has ever written. I have a strong fond memory from reading it when I was small and would love to see more of that set-up.

The Future Imperfect continuation was pretty much handled by Alan Davis in the final issues of his Excalibur, the 'What if the heroes aged in real-time' concept was already expertly handled in the FF Annual of 1998 and the 'What if Magneto and Xavier started X-Men together' set-up must have been seen in multiple 'What ifs'.

[Dino Pollard]

Originally posted by Chigurh
Claremont hasn't written a decent story in decades, and even those don�t hold up terribly well (writing wise).

Time to retire, old boy - no need to keep (bloody continually!) rehashing the same crap.

I vote None of the Above.
Save the trees.
j I agree completely. I believe it was Joe Casey who once said, "when was the last time Claremont said anything relevant? Has he ever?"

[Rory]

Looking forward to a Brubaker X-Title...

BUT

Uncanny was not the title he needed to take over. "Grey's End" was a damn good arc. "Adjectiveless X-Men" on the other hand is sucking MAJOR balls and has from the start. It needs a new writer pronto.

[Ricardo]

"Next, #'s 6 & 7, will be drawn by Michael Ryan (first pages look fantastic). And (this one's for you, Lisa) it's All-About-Black-Tom, and Cain, of course. I also think there's a better than even chance of Dazzler getting killed again, something she's likely to keep trying 'til she gets it right. (And yes, there's a reason and yes we plan to explain it before the year is out).

I guess it's the same reason he had to kill Psylocke. Who's gonna kill Dazzler? Vargas? :rolleyes:

[The Nun]

Originally posted by the hungry w
well, i voted neXt before, and i'm gonna do it again now..

Yeah. This is by far the most interesting idea...and doesn't retread ground done (very well) 20+ years ago.

Much more in the vein of a "New Marvel."

[ErictheRed]

I'm probably gonna vote for "What If?" Wouldn't want to see any of his classic work expanded upon and not be good. I don't think Chris writes that great with the Adjectiveless X-titles as of recently.:(

[The Nun]

Originally posted by sequart
Notice how Iceman is listed last on the list of that new X-team. Is he just an afterthought these days?

lol. If you look at his roll in the X-Men since its inception, he's always been a bit of an afterthought. At least he's not back in college studying accounting while the "real" X-Men go save the universe (again).

[Bugaboo-X]

It's the sort of polite, official pre-explanation one sees when a well-known government official, business executive or sports figure is forced to step down, even though the general public already knows the real reason. "We're giving this guy ... umm, opportunities. Yeah, that's the ticket! ... Opening, uh, new 'vistas' for him to work on 'special projects' ..."

[The Nun]

Originally posted by Dino Pollard
I agree completely. I believe it was Joe Casey who once said, "when was the last time Claremont said anything relevant? Has he ever?"

It's been decades since Chris did anything "important" or "relevant." What Casey should be asking himself (and I just finished reading CotA for the first time) is what has HE ever said that's relevant?

[gabesummers]

what???

asgard or next...leave days of future only all ready damm the cow is dry fyi!!


but i really loved them asgard stories..so much cool stuff..karma gfat then skinny...magma elf!!! storm blasting logan with the hammer and art adams was sooo goood at that time..wow.

but if its going to be a what if ..id go with next..even tho its kinda like the end with x-men older and the youngsters now a prt of the team..

[Don Mega]

The fans can say what he´s to do next? Where he should go from here?

All together now:

RETIREMENT!

[IvCNuB4]

Originally posted by Doug Smith
Interesting that none of those poll options appear to be in-continuity books. Almost seems like they want to give Chris his own little X-universe to play with to his heart's content, but want him nowhere near the core X-books.

*cough*X-TremeX-Men*cough*

[funjoe]

I don't know if this is supposed to be a fun poll or if he is seriously going to do whatever the fans vote for. I would just as soon not have the fans pick what title a writer works on. I would prefer Claremont choose whatever one he is the most interested in writing, as that would most likely yield the best result.
Having said that, I agree with one of the prior posters who said he'd just as soon see Claremont try something outside the X-verse.

[the hungry w]

I think Clermont writing neXt has a nice theme in it, as it reflects his own aging process, he started writing the X-men a looong time ago, now he has aged, yet they are ageless, they may have aged for like...6 years maximum..
Thats why i think hes the perfect writer for this project.. (unless they get Mr.Stan Lee :)

[Bevbos]

I'm glad they're pulling him off the core x-books.

Because the things he's written of late have been quite dull. Perhaps it's different for a hardcore x-fan who cares about characters such as Sage, Psychlocke, etc.

But for those of us who came to love the X-men through Morrison, and also - ironically - through Claremont's original X-stuff - the recent past has been dismal.

When Davis left Uncanny, I dropped the title shortly thereafter. I did give Bachalo a shot, but the writing just didn't carry it for me.

New Excalibur in particular is a let down to fans of the original series. Or even the concept of the original series. And Captain Britain... all that potential squandered. :(

This is just my opinion... It's hard to knock the man who basically invented the x-universe... but his time has passed.

On the other hand, I might try him out with all-new characters in an all-new setting. A group of undiscovered mutants somewhere, without ties to the rest of the x-world? Maybe a group of random aliens brought together on Earth?

I'm sorry... it takes writer of a high calibre to make the convulted x-world gripping. Morrison provided it, Wheedon does a decent job, and Milligan made it good in X-Statix... but the rest of the recent batch doesn't leave much to be interested in.

[Abstrakt]

i really wanna say that he should just stay on x-men...keep him somewhere i dont care about (anymore anyways). i started reading x-men (and comics in general) cuz of morrison and i probably should have left when he did too. x-factor and ultimate x-men are the only good x-books out, period.

[wraith]

Originally posted by Dino Pollard
I agree completely. I believe it was Joe Casey who once said, "when was the last time Claremont said anything relevant? Has he ever?"

And 20 years from now (if the american comic book industry still exists), some young writer will be saying the exact same thing about Cassey (if he actually said that).

Let he who has not writen a crappy story, cast the first stone. Don't get me wrong, I like a number of comics that Cassey has writen, but the guy can hardly talk about another writer writing anything relevent.

[The Nun]

Originally posted by wraith
And 20 years from now (if the american comic book industry still exists), some young writer will be saying the exact same thing about Cassey (if he actually said that).

Exactly.

Aside: Has Casey really done anything relevant? Being a young, urban hipster doesn't = relevant.

(I'm just sayin')

[iceman06]

Originally posted by MattBrady
As for Mystique and Sabretooth, well, the two have been part of the X-Factor series in the 1990s. And Victor Creed played a crucial role in the formation of Generation X during the whole "Phalanx Covenant" saga. However, it should be interesting to see just how well these new additions to the team affect the team's new direction.

Is this seriously how we're going to sum up Sabretooth and Mystique's past experiences with x-teams? Mystique assassinated a Presidential candidate as a member of X-Factor. Recently, she has slit Banshee's throat and killed Dr. MacTaggert. As dumb as it would be to forgive her, there's just no apparent justification for allowing Sabretooth to become an X-Man.

When the X-Men attempted to reform Sabretooth, he nearly killed 2 X-Men and proved himself to be manipulative, completely untrustworthy, and unrepentantly bloodthirsty. Later, he joined X-Factor who tried to control him, but Sabretooth almost killed the entire X-Factor team. He has killed men, women, and children for no reason other than the fact that he likes it. Wait...I forgot Sabretooth and Mystique kick @$$!!!

[iceman06]

Originally posted by Thumper
I've been away from the X-books for quite some time, so I'm probably out of the loop on this, but...

Wasn't X-treme supposedly the 3rd Summers brother?

Or had that been resolved in a different manner?

Fabian Nicieza, who created the 3rd Summers brother subplot, simultaneously created Adam X (X-Treme) to be that 3rd Summers brother but was removed from the x-books before he could reveal this. Based on what Quesada has stated, it seems that Brubaker has created a brand new character who he will reveal to be this 3rd Summers brother. I hope they remember that the 3rd Summers brother should be someone who was alive and susceptable to the Legacy Virus as far as Sinister knew.

Of course, the only comic to hint at this mystery did not limit the number of brothers to 3 and didn't limit the brothers to Summers or Corsair's offspring. I hope Quesada and Brubaker also understand that creating a 3rd Summers brother from scratch does not eliminate the existing candidates as the 4th or 5th Summers brothers. Frankly, the only way to eliminate Adam X as a brother of Cyclops and Havok is to place another Earth woman in space back when their parents were kidnapped by the Shi'Ar.

[Dark Light]

Brubaker has been doing a great job at marvel, and I really don't care what Claremont works on. None of those series sounds interesting to me.

[psymount]

Originally posted by Duke Jupiter
[Give Claremont a decent artist who can tell a clear story, a cast of characters that somebody gives a hershey squirt about (whatever DID happen to villains being villains?), a decent editor in the tradition of good ol' Weezie, unshackle his hands and let him rip! The man knows how to write; it's just that he's been hogtied by all the corporate crap associated with the bloated franchise that is X.

- DJ [/B]


After all the times they've editorially jerked the rug out from under him since he started writing the X-Men again. I'm honestly surprised the man can still write at all. It seems like everytime they've changed directions on the X-titles because of a new writer that they hope will boost sales. Chris ends up with the leftover charecters they don't want to work with. I didn't mind it when he ended up with the X-Treme X-Men to accomidate Morrison. As much as some people may not have liked that title. He was still at least attempting to tell some decent stories that I really enjoyed. Then Morrison's run ended and editorial decided to bring the X-Treme team back to the X-Mansion. Effectively undoing everything he had tried to accomplish with the charecters. Is is any wonder his writing on Uncanny has been half hearted at best? At least he was attempting to tell some good stories in Excalibur and I was actually enjoying that. Then they jerked the rug out from under him again with "House of M".
I've tried New Excalibur, but it feels like he's just "phoning it in" again and I can't really blame him for that. Maybe IF the team had a couple more charecters I cared about or was interested in besides Sage and Dazzler. I've given it my usual first storyarc trial and I'm done with it unless they give him some better charecters to work with. Callisto, Dark Beast and the Genoshan kids were more interesting than Captain Britain, Nocturne, and especially Pete Wisdom. :rolleyes:
IMO they need to give him a decent stable of charecters to work with and an experienced "old school" editor who'll encourage him to write good stories. Personally I think his work on the "End" trilogy has been some of his best writing in quite awhile and that's because he has the freedom to actually do it.

[Benji]

X-Men's team will consist of the following team members: Cable, Mystique, Rogue, Cannonball, Sabretooth, and Iceman

See this entire team confuses and/or annoys me.

Cable.
Why is he suddenly joining an x-team, is the whole upcoming apocalypse story line going to take him away from "Cable and Deadpool"!?
Guess this means Deadpool may get his own ongoing, lets hope so.

On another note, Havoc i found, was an interesting leader, but is Cable going to be in charge now kind of being part of the summers "family".

Rouge is already on the team this makes sense, but are mystique and her functioning as a team due to (same as cable) the upcoming apocolypse arc. As gambit is a horseman?

Cannonball, the guy hasn't done that much for years, so i suppose this could be good.

Iceman is an original, so he also makes sense.
Though on a side-note, the whole, lost powers one month, get them back the next thing was annoying. It made some sense but was mostly s*!t.

Sabertooth, i echo is a pretty dumb character for a hero team.
I feel he's just there in replacement for Wolverine, anyone else?

[The Nun]

Originally posted by psymount
Personally I think his work on the "End" trilogy has been some of his best writing in quite awhile and that's because he has the freedom to actually do it.

Agreed. The End is the best work Claremont has written since the late 80s...sad as that may sound.

Maybe it is for the reasons you stated. It certainly makes sense.

My opinion is this: Keep him far, far away from the core books. Let him do more stuff like The End and hopefully neXt. Let him work his craft in style, instead of sticking him on monthly drek that the fans (and probably he) can't stand.

[iceman06]

Originally posted by SuperStories
Cannonball - a "Teen Titan" who made the big leage there does not seem much to him other then being a New Mutant who graduated

Here's my assessment of Cannonball: He's an experienced and effective field leader and field operative who represents the best of his former mentors Xavier, Magneto, Cable, and Wisdom without compromising his own sense of self. Due to his wholesome country boy persona, others, to their detriment, tend to underestimate him which he has no problem taking advantage of. He's a pretty clever kid who used his smarts to win a philosophical debate against Xavier, hustle Gambit at poker, and take down Gladiator in a fight.

Originally posted by SuperStories
Iceman - Didn't he loose his powers, reactivating hos powers with the House of M makes this seem like the miniseries was not important

Iceman never lost his powers. Part of the reason Quesada kept playing that up was so that he didn't ruin future developments in X-Men. Iceman was no longer stuck in his ice form, and he just found out mutants were losing their powers. Anybody who knows the character knows that he just wants to be a normal guy so he subconsciously supressed his mutant powers. These are ongoing issues for Iceman, and I'm sure it's a lot more interesting than what would have happened if he actually did lose his powers.

[IronWolf]

Any one here readin' New Excalibur?

[WebHobbit]

It's really really stupid to put Sabretooth on a team. No one correctly written in character would trust him enough to accept him into the X-Men. It's friggin' insane.


I too thought JoeQ was kidding when he said that.

[The Nun]

Originally posted by WebHobbit
It's really really stupid to put Sabretooth on a team. No one correctly written in character would trust him enough to accept him into the X-Men. It's friggin' insane.

They have a saying at Marvel that goes all the way back to Stan: "Conflict. Conflict. Conflict."

By (roughly) issue 12 of the original Avengers, 1/2 the team were former criminals.

Hrm. Stan set the bar over 40 years ago.

[Rudy913]

Well looks like I'm gonna be telling the people who do the ordering at my shop to decrease their orders of New Excalibur as much as possible. And as for a project I'd like to see Claremont on, give him something outside the X universe so maybe he can come up with new ideas that aren't played out rehashes of the old ones.

[gabesummers]

i posted this on another site but it fits.


my 2 cents.


when cc was first put on the book it didnt matter..they let him write..because it didnt matter..the title wasnt seeling but..cc made the book one of the greatest comics ever..then x-men became important..now its worth something ..

cc before all that was on fire...cc afterwards in some eyes isnt hot anymore...to me thats the diffrence if marvel/editors/who ever let the man write im sure hed have a second coming but now, x-men is to important so they cant..so cc is kinda tied...he cant do anything he wanted like when he was first on it. that to me is why hes still not the greatest if you change that then im sure hed be destroying the charts


from the outside looking in they keep messing with him..put him on a title take him off..give him horrible artist and cut his stories mid way... this is the guy who got me into comics..how many of us read x-men and was hooked? seriously id say alot of us got into comics because of ccs run...now comic companies are stating they are losing readers..they need new readers ...yet they dont let the writers write like they used to..maybe thats the problem.

thinka bout that, we all say ohh its lack of availibity...its the art ..its the past stories ...conitnuity(and other words i cant spell)etc etc we have so many reasons why kids dont pick up comics..but the one thing i see diffrent is ..writers arent allowed to write any more..they have to follow these crazy trade requirements etc..to me thats the problem..when cc was on the book we all followed the back history we all thought it was cool..we like the premises and charecters..we dont anymore..and the only thing i see diffrent is cc isnt allowed free reighn.

and yes the argument can be made that the titles and properties are to important to mess with ....that they dont belong to a writer..i agree..
\but think of any comic you think is awesome and the wrter was allowed free riegn...watchmen ? do you think it would have been good if moore had editors telling him what to write? he did what he wanted..yes he had to use some old charecters no one cared about but ..no one cared so he went all out..and it was awesome.


but they were not used charecters ok.

animal man from what i hear it was awesome when morrison was on it..and yet no one cared about the chareter he was given free reighn.

daredevil im sure bendis gets some what free reighn...and isnt his run awesome??

any title that is considered "amazing" or one of the best books ever the writer is allowed to write...and look at any list of the top spots...

y the last man alot of pepole say its the bomb..the writers aloowed to do anything he wants...dead walking again allowed.

look at any title that is looked upon as greatness and youll see a propertey no one really cares about prior to it becoming greatness .

thats the industies problem they dont let writers write.they are to scaruuudd and because of that the passion is gone no one is thinking out side the box because they are no longer allowed to

and i still cant speel .

[Novaya Havoc]

Originally posted by IronWolf
Any one here readin' New Excalibur?

Yeah, but only because I'm a Dazzler purist.

I hate Sage, I hate the British location, I hate time-displaced characters, I hate the charicature of the Hellfire Club, and I hate alternate realities.

Oh, and I don't like that Dazzler grew testicles for this book.

CC had one chance to nail NEX, and blew it. It's done. The sales will not magically pick up. There is no POINT to the book, other than a last-ditch effort to cash in on the name (and it's not even that big of a name). He needed to really re-invent New Excalibur -- and he didn't.

Consider this series cancelled by issue 20. If he's lucky. It's falling off the radar fast -- several review sites haven't even bothered with reviews of issue #3. The interest is entirely gone.

[Rudy913]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gabesummers
[B]i posted this on another site but it fits.


my 2 cents.


when cc was first put on the book it didnt matter..they let him write..because it didnt matter..the title wasnt seeling but..cc made the book one of the greatest comics ever..then x-men became important..now its worth something ..

cc before all that was on fire...cc afterwards in some eyes isnt hot anymore...to me thats the diffrence if marvel/editors/who ever let the man write im sure hed have a second coming but now, x-men is to important so they cant..so cc is kinda tied...he cant do anything he wanted like when he was first on it. that to me is why hes still not the greatest if you change that then im sure hed be destroying the charts


from the outside looking in they keep messing with him..put him on a title take him off..give him horrible artist and cut his stories mid way... this is the guy who got me into comics..how many of us read x-men and was hooked? seriously id say alot of us got into comics because of ccs run...now comic companies are stating they are losing readers..they need new readers ...yet they dont let the writers write like they used to..maybe thats the problem.

thinka bout that, we all say ohh its lack of availibity...its the art ..its the past stories ...conitnuity(and other words i cant spell)etc etc we have so many reasons why kids dont pick up comics..but the one thing i see diffrent is ..writers arent allowed to write any more..they have to follow these crazy trade requirements etc..to me thats the problem..when cc was on the book we all followed the back history we all thought it was cool..we like the premises and charecters..we dont anymore..and the only thing i see diffrent is cc isnt allowed free reighn.

and yes the argument can be made that the titles and properties are to important to mess with ....that they dont belong to a writer..i agree..
\but think of any comic you think is awesome and the wrter was allowed free riegn...watchmen ? do you think it would have been good if moore had editors telling him what to write? he did what he wanted..yes he had to use some old charecters no one cared about but ..no one cared so he went all out..and it was awesome.


OK but X-Men was selling when Grant Morrison was writing and they seem to have given him a lot of room to write considering how much of a change it was from previous writers. And I don't really think Marvel is putting too much of a leash on Claremont considering he is very well respected by Joe Quesada. Then there's the fact that even if Marvel editors weren't letting Claremont write the stuff he wants to, he doesn't seem to mind too much cuz he keeps churnin' out the books doesn't he? I just don't think he hasn't in him anymore. At least as far as the X-Men goes. I loved Claremont's early work. Some of the best X-Men stories without a doubt. I just haven't seen one of those in a couple decades from him.

[JohnLynch]

Originally posted by kilroy
I miss beak, angel, the cucokdsIf you mean the Cuckoo Sisters then they're in New X-Men. However up until now they haven't been featured prominantly (although they have been in it a bit more during and since House of M).

I do have one question. What is "The End?" Is it set in an alternate timeline/possible future? Is it set in the present, and is depicting the end of something?

Originally posted by SuperStories
[B]Iceman - Didn't he loose his powers, reactivating hos powers with the House of M makes this seem like the miniseries was not important I'm pretty sure he was the first to get his powers returned. And I agree with you there on principle, however reading New X-Men and the TON of main characters who have lost their powers, I wouldn't be surprised (or too dissapointed) if there was a massive return of powers for this title's characters. Sure it will mean they missed out on a great opportunity to develop characters in an interesting manner. But I can see why they would want to return to the status quo ASAP.

[ChuckNorris]

well i for one and glad to see chris go, thanks for all the old classics buddy but your writing has gotten pretty dull as of late. Chris's attempts at modern slang and dialogue make me flinch every time i see them. he's out of touch. time to retire buddy. though i would like to see the asgardian war stories, not enough of those kinds of tales around. as a creative writing major id like to tell all you claremont fans that you have no idea what good writitng is. morrisons run was one of the best and i think brubakers will be as well. one thing that should never change on uncanny is bachalo his art is some of the coolest and most interesting to look at i have ever seen, i just wish he would finish steampunk someday.

[gabesummers]

Originally posted by Rudy913
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rudy913
[B]i
OK but X-Men was selling when Grant Morrison was writing and they seem to have given him a lot of room to write considering how much of a change it was from previous writers. And I don't really think Marvel is putting too much of a leash on Claremont considering he is very well respected by Joe Quesada. Then there's the fact that even if Marvel editors weren't letting Claremont write the stuff he wants to, he doesn't seem to mind too much cuz he keeps churnin' out the books doesn't he? I just don't think he hasn't in him anymore. At least as far as the X-Men goes. I loved Claremont's early work. Some of the best X-Men stories without a doubt. I just haven't seen one of those in a couple decades from him.

maybe im reaching for excuse im not sure....and when morrison wrote it im sure he was allowed (with in restraints) to do anything he wanted and he pushed it into the 21st century..no one before him did that..he was allowed to write and it was amazing.x-men were alive and fresh again annnd relevant (gasp??!!)..thats my point writers arent allowed to write anymore ....
.but joe q does state that cc is beloved and appreicited..i agree..but his actions dont show me that....and i maybe seeing wrong..i do know im only seeing half of it..but it looks..looks like he keeps getting the run around..hes on reboot then xtreme then pulled off then put on uncanny..etc..it dosent seem to me that hes been on a book more than 2 years (uncanny was more than 2 years huh?? well hes had to stop stories midway and change them)..he keeps getting bounced around or having his stories messed with ...for whatever reason ..like house of m etc. ...from the outside i see joe saying hes loved but i dont see any love. but maybe a side of me is just wishing for excuses..its like when jerry rice started to run slower you know it was happening but you didnt want to admit to it . haha yuno?

[Alextron]

Personally, I'm voting for killing Robin. Does Batman really need a partner?

Seriously, I think Claremont was getting on a winning streak on Uncanny.

[Crusader K]

Ok...wait....Mystique and Sabertooth BOTH in the X-Men?? I mean, aren't they the BAD guys? I mean, did I miss something or isn't Sabretooth like, kill crazy berserker nutjob?

And Cable? Honestly. Isn't this hyperthryroid, leftover, 90's reject done??

Crap idea.

This clinches it. Done. Done with the adjectiveless X-Men.

Now, "neXt" sounds...interesting. Just as long as Claremont doesn't segueway into "Days of Future Past" with this. That one time awesome storyline has been milked TO DEATH.

[jsimms555]

Joe's got to be throwing us a curveball. Cable, Rogue, Mystique, Sabretooth, Iceman, Cannonball & Marvel Girl? There's no way that will happen. They still have to account for Nightcrawler (whose now a leader), Bishop, Psylocke, and the rest over on X-Men.

Maybe after Son of M wraps up, Quicksilver will want to redeem himself and join the X-Men. That series has been teased as having a surprise ending.

I would LOVE to see Firestar join the X-Men. They should have her dump that loser Justice and go back to "kindly Miss Frost."

[Brainlock]

X-Men = X-Force + X-Factor?
I don't mind seeing Raven on the team for a stint, but CREED? HAS to be because they're pulling back on Wolvie. I'm sure Sammy will have a few choice words for Creed, at least, considering Creed nearly killed Sam's ex-gf, post-lobotomy/AoA.
I have to wonder about C/DP's future, with Nate on the X-Men title, but if LOGAN can pull off 12 appearances a month, surely Nate can do two.

as for the poll, gimme 'real time X-Men', followed by the What If..? story. Those two intrigue me the most. Just don't turn them into prequels to "The End", or that will be it for me and Marvel, as well.

DoFP is overplayed and needs to be put to rest.
Asgard worked as a one-off issue of What If, but a SERIES? no.

I just hope this new CC series does not kill EXILES, the ONLY Marvel title I am picking up, and MAKING AN EFFORT to pick up on a regular basis. altho, I will admit to giving New Excalibur a shot.

[The Nun]

Originally posted by ChuckNorris
well as a creative writing major id like to tell all you claremont fans that you have no idea what good writitng is.

he had a good point til you decided to sound like an @$$.

there's plenty of creative writing and english majors hangin' round, chief.

[Number37]

xmen the end has been really good with plenty of twists. the greys end story is awesome. i really liked xtreme but once they got away from the premise it started to lag. i think claremont is way better dealing with characters he knows well.

[golgoth]

Claremont has written a wealth of great X-men tales, but he doesn't handle editorial influence very well. I know it's been said a lot that the ideas he proposes are great, but really get deminished by the time the editors get ahold of them, but ultimatly that should make the writer come up with a better way to tell what's given to them. His work in recent years has been hit or miss for me, his run on X-treme for the first year and a half was a lot of fun, but by the time that X-2 was hitting theatres it became fairly obvious that editorial was asking for more and more changes from him, and the writing on the wall was soon very aparent that that book was going the way of the dodo.

I'm not going to knock him, but honestly I haven't read any X-book in 2 years now other than Astonishing and Deadly Genisis. That's after an almost 15 year uninteruppted run, so yeah the books really do need a giant freshing up. I've been enjoying Deadly Genisis quite a bit, even though it's a bit slow going right now I'm still staying interested, so I think this is a good choice. I might actually break my two year hiatis of buying the core x-books and check them out again.

[Justice Daye]

I still say that Marvel should give any x-writer with a stable and strong fanbase their own series...permanently. They really should give each strong x-writer their own corner(or should've). This includes Claremont and GM. It would be much better than this constant revamping and repositioning of writers and casts that only invalidates the run it replaces or worse yet, gets invalidated itself when the next new guy comes along.

[djshalope]

defintely neXt. that poll has been up forever.

[psymount]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by iceman06
[B]Here's my assessment of Cannonball: He's an experienced and effective field leader and field operative who represents the best of his former mentors Xavier, Magneto, Cable, and Wisdom without compromising his own sense of self. Due to his wholesome country boy persona, others, to their detriment, tend to underestimate him which he has no problem taking advantage of. He's a pretty clever kid who used his smarts to win a philosophical debate against Xavier, hustle Gambit at poker, and take down Gladiator in a fight.



The only thing I don't absolutely agree with is that by now Sam is more of a young man than a kid. He's more than experienced enough to lead a team of X-Men IF he's handled by a decent writer. I liked the direction Claremont was taking him in X-Treme X-Men. It felt like Sam was finally being treated the way he should be by his fellow X-Men instead of as the "Hayseed" Kid.
Then he got stuck with that horrid yellow and orange costume in Uncanny. Was on the team for a whole 5 minates before being jerked back into X-Farce. You can say all the negative things you want about Claremonts writing, but even at his worst he doesn't even begin to compair to the level of absolute drek done by Lifield or Austen.
:rolleyes:
Aside from the fact that I've honestly never cared for Cable as a charecter. The absolute last place I want to see Sam is on a team with him again. Sam deserves a chance to shine on his own without being eclipsed by Cable.

"X-Men: The End" is set 15 years in the future and is literally the final X-Men story. It's being done as a trilogy in 6 issue story arcs. Claremont at his best IMO and it's worth reading just to find out who Gambit's father was.

Nightcrawler isn't suddenly "now" a leader. He's been the field leader of the X-Men before and led Excalibur for years. So it's not really a new development or take on the charecter. At various times Cyclops, Storm, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Gambit and even Pheonix have all led teams of X-Men. At one point when Peter David was writing X-Factor, Havok was actually a decent team leader. Obviously Miller never read those issue's because whatever Alex is doing in his run on the title. It definately isn't leading a team of X-Men. Kitty has matured to the point that she's more than ready to assume a leadership role IF given the chance. For that matter, given the nature of her mutant abilities, Sage would also make an excellent team leader IF properly handled. The only thing I've ever hated about Sage is those horrid purple costumes she's been wearing since X-Treme X-Men ended. I honestly wish that at least one team would have kept the Morrison era black leather look and that she was on it.
Ideally I would have liked to have seen a New Excalibur or revamped X-Treme X-Men written by Claremont that had a team roster of Bishop, Sage, Forge, Mystique, Banshee, Callisto and Sabra. Have them become the equivelent to the X.S.E. or Xavier's mutant underground. An international team that has minimal ties to the X-Mansion and isn't bogged down by all the editorial decisions all the core X-titles are.

[Evolution]

Originally posted by gabesummers
i posted this on another site but it fits.


my 2 cents.


when cc was first put on the book it didnt matter..they let him write..because it didnt matter..the title wasnt seeling but..cc made the book one of the greatest comics ever..then x-men became important..now its worth something ..

cc before all that was on fire...cc afterwards in some eyes isnt hot anymore...to me thats the diffrence if marvel/editors/who ever let the man write im sure hed have a second coming but now, x-men is to important so they cant..so cc is kinda tied...he cant do anything he wanted like when he was first on it. that to me is why hes still not the greatest if you change that then im sure hed be destroying the charts

........

and yes the argument can be made that the titles and properties are to important to mess with ....that they dont belong to a writer..i agree..
\but think of any comic you think is awesome and the wrter was allowed free riegn...watchmen ? do you think it would have been good if moore had editors telling him what to write? he did what he wanted..yes he had to use some old charecters no one cared about but ..no one cared so he went all out..and it was awesome.


yeah well....I first read Uncanny Xmen with issue 101. It took me about a year to realize that the guy writing that book was the same guy who wrote those excellant Marvel Team-Up issues and the same guy who wrote the black and white StarLords. the same guy who wrote Ms Marvel (I didnt read SPider Woman back then). I remember when Uncanny went monthy after being bi-monthly for quite a while. Claremont rocked. Granted, John Byrne had a lot to do with those early Uncanny issues...but they all rocked. I remember when Pheonix died the first time and when Kitty Pryde was introduced. It was great. I bailed out for a while after the first Brood story because I was in high school at the time and comic books didnt seem cool.

I came back in like 87 partially because a friend was singing the praises of CC. Excalibar was awsome...until the cross time caper went on for like 25 issues. I stayed on board through the early 90s and found the X books to begin to lack significantly once Claremont was pushed out. Jim Lee is a great artist, but his writing left alot to be desired.

I paid attention to the industry through the 90s mainly because a different buddy never left. But I read no Xmen. And I came back full force because of Morrison on the X Men and Bendis on daredevil. SO when I saw CC was writing X books, I picked a few up. Yawn (though I kind of like the current arc on uncanny with the grey family getting slaughtered and all)

THe man is way way past his prime. His creative output was incredibly high for a long long time. It wasnt just when no one cared and the xmen were a throw away book.

Maybe its because he cant write decompression...though sometimes decompression annoys the crap out of me (Kirby or colan or kane or many others could have told something like THe Other in 2 issues and it would have been significantly more interesting). But really I think he is just trying way too hard to connect with a kind of youth market.

It reminds me of the (1st?) novel he wrote..."first flight" or something like that...the main character was a young woman or something...and it just seemed forced. As if hes trying to write stories explicity for young adults rather than simply writing explicitly good stories.

He's the Elton John of the comic industry: great and relevant for a long time with a set of "hits" that normal mortals would sell their souls for...and then just pale imitation of himself. But where as maybe Elton just needs to get back on the bottle....CC needs to refind his sci-fi roots.

I dont say this based on my own old fanboy wishes...I say this because in 1978 he said he loved scifi and that he was dedicated to writing scifi. THe Shi'ar were created because he wanted to write scifi...in fact he gave numerous examples.

I saw him leaving a store in NYC a few months back and I didnt recognize him until he was gone....I would have told him this in person. (right, like he would have listened!)

[smrtbob]

none of the above

[Marty4Magik]

Asgard sounds realy interesting (big chance Magik in there!!!), but I voted for NeXt (also a chance of Magik in there).
Sounds really cool, and I don't want anothet DoFP.
That was a very cool story, but it has been revisited enough times that it's getting boring.

[Thumper]

Originally posted by iceman06
Fabian Nicieza, who created the 3rd Summers brother subplot, simultaneously created Adam X (X-Treme) to be that 3rd Summers brother but was removed from the x-books before he could reveal this. Based on what Quesada has stated, it seems that Brubaker has created a brand new character who he will reveal to be this 3rd Summers brother. I hope they remember that the 3rd Summers brother should be someone who was alive and susceptable to the Legacy Virus as far as Sinister knew.

Of course, the only comic to hint at this mystery did not limit the number of brothers to 3 and didn't limit the brothers to Summers or Corsair's offspring. I hope Quesada and Brubaker also understand that creating a 3rd Summers brother from scratch does not eliminate the existing candidates as the 4th or 5th Summers brothers. Frankly, the only way to eliminate Adam X as a brother of Cyclops and Havok is to place another Earth woman in space back when their parents were kidnapped by the Shi'Ar.

Thank you!

[Angelophile]

Originally posted by wraith
And 20 years from now (if the american comic book industry still exists), some young writer will be saying the exact same thing about Cassey (if he actually said that).

Unlikely.

Who IS Casey?

[gabesummers]

Originally posted by Evolution
yeah well....I first read Uncanny Xmen with issue 101. It took me about a year to realize that the guy writing that book was the same guy who wrote those excellant Marvel Team-Up issues and the same guy who wrote the black and white StarLords. the same guy who wrote Ms Marvel (I didnt read SPider Woman back then). I remember when Uncanny went monthy after being bi-monthly for quite a while. Claremont rocked. Granted, John Byrne had a lot to do with those early Uncanny issues...but they all rocked. I remember when Pheonix died the first time and when Kitty Pryde was introduced. It was great. I bailed out for a while after the first Brood story because I was in high school at the time and comic books didnt seem cool.

I came back in like 87 partially because a friend was singing the praises of CC. Excalibar was awsome...until the cross time caper went on for like 25 issues. I stayed on board through the early 90s and found the X books to begin to lack significantly once Claremont was pushed out. Jim Lee is a great artist, but his writing left alot to be desired.

I paid attention to the industry through the 90s mainly because a different buddy never left. But I read no Xmen. And I came back full force because of Morrison on the X Men and Bendis on daredevil. SO when I saw CC was writing X books, I picked a few up. Yawn (though I kind of like the current arc on uncanny with the grey family getting slaughtered and all)

THe man is way way past his prime. His creative output was incredibly high for a long long time. It wasnt just when no one cared and the xmen were a throw away book.

Maybe its because he cant write decompression...though sometimes decompression annoys the crap out of me (Kirby or colan or kane or many others could have told something like THe Other in 2 issues and it would have been significantly more interesting). But really I think he is just trying way too hard to connect with a kind of youth market.

It reminds me of the (1st?) novel he wrote..."first flight" or something like that...the main character was a young woman or something...and it just seemed forced. As if hes trying to write stories explicity for young adults rather than simply writing explicitly good stories.

He's the Elton John of the comic industry: great and relevant for a long time with a set of "hits" that normal mortals would sell their souls for...and then just pale imitation of himself. But where as maybe Elton just needs to get back on the bottle....CC needs to refind his sci-fi roots.

I dont say this based on my own old fanboy wishes...I say this because in 1978 he said he loved scifi and that he was dedicated to writing scifi. THe Shi'ar were created because he wanted to write scifi...in fact he gave numerous examples.

I saw him leaving a store in NYC a few months back and I didnt recognize him until he was gone....I would have told him this in person. (right, like he would have listened!) very valid points..totaly

i was just stating that if you look at Xmen the END to me its a master piece ...cc is aloowed to do what he wants any way he wants to..and its an awesome read.im loving it

then i look at things like uncanny and all tho i dont hate the run..its not as good ..

the only diffrence i can think of between these 2 books..is on one hes allowed to do his thing..the other he has to go with the what higher ups need him to do..ex: his run durring house of m.

same guy..same charecters..same premise...yet both are so far apart.that to me says something.

[Nightfly]

Days of Future Past

[littlewolvie]

Originally posted by iceman06
Fabian Nicieza, who created the 3rd Summers brother subplot, simultaneously created Adam X (X-Treme) to be that 3rd Summers brother but was removed from the x-books before he could reveal this... Frankly, the only way to eliminate Adam X as a brother of Cyclops and Havok is to place another Earth woman in space back when their parents were kidnapped by the Shi'Ar.

Excellent bit of continuity history. ;-)

There's one fact you seem to forget. Joe & co. don't give a damn about continuity. I thought that was pretty clear by now.

[littlewolvie]

Sorry, browser was messing up...

[littlewolvie]

Originally posted by gabesummers
..he keeps getting bounced around or having his stories messed with ...for whatever reason ..like house of m etc. ...from the outside i see joe saying hes loved but i dont see any love.

I agree. Everybody familiar with Claremont's work should know by now that he's a slow writer (and sometimes even too slow which resulted in a disappointment on S7 e.g. as far as I'm concerned) But given some time, it's usually worth it. Very few writers develop characters the way he does. But that stuff simply takes time. If you don't want that, I simply don't understand why you put him on a book like Uncanny. If you wanted immediate, but short lived, results, you shouldn't have hired him for the job in the first place. And it's a pity, 'cause I felt like Chris was really getting there again on his current run on Uncanny (almost making me forget that horrible mess GM made). Personally, I don't think there's any love between Joe & Chris. Claremont's way simply doesn't correspond with the image Joe has in mind for Marvel. Other writers (Bendis on Daredevil?) clearly got plenty of time to develop their characters and brewing their stories. At least Joe could be honest about this instead of coming up with one of his "everybody's happy" stories. Ah well, not much I can do about it anyway. I guess Chris can join my list of other writers (Nicieza, Busiek...) who won't get any spotlight at Marvel these days. At least I'll still have New Excalibur (for how long?) and The End (an X-cellent story in true Claremont style which gets absolutely NO spotlight or approval from Joe & co) to enjoy.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by Rory
Looking forward to a Brubaker X-Title...

BUT

Uncanny was not the title he needed to take over. "Grey's End" was a damn good arc. "Adjectiveless X-Men" on the other hand is sucking MAJOR balls and has from the start. It needs a new writer pronto. Speaking of 'Grey's End'. I had the impression that the new Shi'ar strikeforce characters shown here were supposed to be some sort of DC homages, like the Imperial Guard before them. I recognised Hawkman, Deadshot, Clayface, Martian Manhunter and the rest seemed familiar. Could anyone fill me in?

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by Bevbos
New Excalibur in particular is a let down to fans of the original series. Or even the concept of the original series. And Captain Britain... all that potential squandered. :(Oh yeah, major ditto. Excalibur was always Alan Davis' baby, not Claremont's, in the respect that he was the one who made it most enjoyable and fun feelgood series ever this side of his own ClanDestine. He had a real attachment and vision for the characters which carried over strongly to the readers. This was evident in that his personally written arcs were at least as good as those where he collaborated with Claremont, while the book turned horrible whenever another artist was at the helm (noteable exception the Scott Lobdell fill-in during Alan's second run starring the ancient Trolls).

After Alan left noone, not even Warren Ellis, was capable of remotely handling it well. It went from king's meal to rotten scraps at a scary speed. Now Meggan is completely annihilated on every level by an 'Avengers Forever'-style temporal wave and it was the dynamic and love between her and Cap which made both of them work as a team, so I can't say recent happenings seem to indicate much good for their future. Heck, the way she was killed makes sure it's not even possible to resurrect her. Her spirit and very existence were completely wiped out. It's such a shame. :(

Cap&Meggan are the core and essense of the team, giving the right feeling to the concept. Nightcrawler & Rachel are also semi-essential, with Kitty & Lockheed (even Widget) adding some extra working depth.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by iceman06
He's a pretty clever kid who used his smarts to win a philosophical debate against Xavier, hustle Gambit at poker, and take down Gladiator in a fight.He didn't take down Gladiator. Gladiator was hardly out of the fight, nor should he be. When at his peak of confidence he has Thor/Binary/Hulk/Silver Surfer level power. He wasn't actively trying to best Cannonball, due to the latter being considered far beneath him and really only wishing to deliver a message to the X-Men, which gave Guthrie a free chance to deliver a lucky punch, sending his opponent sailing away in surprise and taking him a very short instance of surprise to rise from the wreckage. Then the X-Men arrived, breaking up the alteration and Gladiator sent them on their merry way to Shi'ar airspace.

I'm also not sure what 'philosophical debate' you're talking about. The one where he justified staying with Cable's 'kill first ask questions later' X-Force team? As far as I remember that wasn't a debate, that was a single comment of juvenile arrogance, basically declaring that he didn't care what the Professor had to say. Sam is semi-crafty, but hardly a philosophical genius, which is what it would take to overcome the Professor in a somewhat well-written book.

Still, sending Gladiator sailing is still a mighty impressive feat in itself. I'm not sure Collossus could do it.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by The Nun
They have a saying at Marvel that goes all the way back to Stan: "Conflict. Conflict. Conflict."

By (roughly) issue 12 of the original Avengers, 1/2 the team were former criminals. Though none of them stockpiled 50 kindergarten children to gut and eat them one by one, nor were they even murderers.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by Novaya Havoc
Yeah, but only because I'm a Dazzler purist.

I hate Sage, I hate the British location, I hate time-displaced characters, I hate the charicature of the Hellfire Club, and I hate alternate realities.

Oh, and I don't like that Dazzler grew testicles for this book. Well, admittedly Claremont sometimes has the problem that many of his female characters sound bull-dyke butch (or rather like hardcore military men with tits and all femininity surgically extracted), but I think he's gotten much better since eXtreme X-men. Dazzler isn't so bad here. I really can't stand Sage however.

[lex luthor]

Claremont is at his best with little to no editorial interference and a good artist. Personally, I'd like to see Claremont put on Amazing Fantasy w/his "The End" collaborator Sean Chen and let their imaginations run wild. Make new characters, revive old ones, whatever they want.

[B-MAN]

Originally posted by lex luthor
Claremont is at his best with little to no editorial interference and a good artist. Personally, I'd like to see Claremont put on Amazing Fantasy w/his "The End" collaborator Sean Chen and let their imaginations run wild. Make new characters, revive old ones, whatever they want.
I agree withe the artist thing! If you look back at Claremont's really good runs on X-Men it was when he always had a good artist that in some cases told his story really well with their artwork or they helped him plot them. Other than that his writing has always been "OKAY." I own a comic book store and I've heard the same thing over the last few years about Uncanny
X-Men, alot of buyers do just that. They buy it and glance thru it. And the reason why, it's because they all have a run of Uncanny X-Men and don't wanna stop it! It's mainly bought out of habbit!

[Chigurh]

I hate to tell you this but a script comes *BEFORE* the art.
Obviously a comic book is based on the words and the visuals.
So a good artist just *seemingly* makes bad writing suck less.
(take a look at any Hollywood extravaganza; they are all pretty badly written, but your brain was sated with the eye candy so it’s didn’t seem ‘that bad’ a flick)

As for CC not having control, there seems to be no indication that he was tied to an editorial leash.
He’s just out of ideas.
It’s not really a surprise that his more recently beloved titles are totally out of continuity stories.
Sorry, but writing a serialized comic within a specific universe, the job is to work with the continuity.
Maybe Starbucks is hiring.

[iceman06]

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
He didn't take down Gladiator. Gladiator was hardly out of the fight, nor should he be. When at his peak of confidence he has Thor/Binary/Hulk/Silver Surfer level power. He wasn't actively trying to best Cannonball, due to the latter being considered far beneath him and really only wishing to deliver a message to the X-Men, which gave Guthrie a free chance to deliver a lucky punch, sending his opponent sailing away in surprise and taking him a very short instance of surprise to rise from the wreckage. Then the X-Men arrived, breaking up the alteration and Gladiator sent them on their merry way to Shi'ar airspace...Still, sending Gladiator sailing is still a mighty impressive feat in itself. I'm not sure Collossus could do it.

I choose my words carefully. I never said he beat Gladiator, and I'm usually the one pointing out exactly what you said. He did take down Gladiator, and I think you get 2 points for that in wrestling.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
I'm also not sure what 'philosophical debate' you're talking about. The one where he justified staying with Cable's 'kill first ask questions later' X-Force team? As far as I remember that wasn't a debate, that was a single comment of juvenile arrogance, basically declaring that he didn't care what the Professor had to say. Sam is semi-crafty, but hardly a philosophical genius, which is what it would take to overcome the Professor in a somewhat well-written book.

They had a short conversation where the expressed and supported opposing views on the "closed fist vs. open hand" approaches to dealing with mutant/human relations. Cannonball gave a speech which seemed to prove his point, ended the conversation, and made Xavier change the subject.

Also, he was right. The open hand can open yourself up to being patronized or taken advantage of (which is my interpolation regarding the slap in the face) while the closed fist can demand results through force and solidarity.

That was Sam's team since Cable hadn't been a member of the team for about a year. Also, geniuses can always be wrong and they're usually open to different ideas even if they still prefer theirs. If you have a good point and express it well, you can win a debate against anybody.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by iceman06
I choose my words carefully. I never said he beat Gladiator, and I'm usually the one pointing out exactly what you said. He did take down Gladiator, and I think you get 2 points for that in wrestling.To most people 'take down' sounds like beating, especially when no further explanation is offered, so you might consider choosing the words 'send him flying with no apparent injury whatsoever' in the future.

They had a short conversation where the expressed and supported opposing views on the "closed fist vs. open hand" approaches to dealing with mutant/human relations. Cannonball gave a speech which seemed to prove his point, ended the conversation, and made Xavier change the subject.I don't remember that one, but it doesn't sound like the kind of topic a genius would see in that simple a light. Either you chalk it up to a militant writer making it too easy for himself in 'prooving' a point (or rather to justify the existence of a then popular commando-strikeforce-slash-kill-murder-gore-hatred-rage-big guns-knives-blood-psychopaths generally mindless tripefest book which paid his salary, rather than dragging out the philosophical justification plug from under it).

Or, from a more in-character perspective, that Xavier realised that Sam's involvement in a fanatic virtual terrorist cell outside the law made him too caught up self-righteous 'might makes right' brattily self-justifying adrenaline surges to really grasp any more layered interpretations. It was a teenage 'me against all regulations' romp book with some of the worst writing in the history of the medium. Don't make it more significant than it deserves.

Also, he was right. The open hand can open yourself up to being patronized or taken advantage of (which is my interpolation regarding the slap in the face) while the closed fist can demand results through force and solidarity.It's not that simple. For starters the people most willing to use excessive force are usually the ones least interested in any type of justice or solidarity. To demand results singularily dependent on your own personal interests is the attitude of an extremely corrupted and egomaniacal individual.

That said, yes force should be used when no other option remains and the enemy is evil to the core with no respect for innocent lives, but to be an ethical, responsible and compassionate individual you need both the open hand and the closed fist in combination, to an extent gauged on an individual basis of whichever achieves the greatest good.

While he had bounds of great compassion Xavier was hardly a fanatical pacifist, he had a more balanced use of both. X-Force put itself up as judge, jury and executioner, with no laws, restrictions or responsibilities except to themselves and the very undeveloped morals of a bunch of adrenaline-dependent, militant brats who got off on self-righteousness and extreme, murderous violence.

That was Sam's team since Cable hadn't been a member of the team for about a year. Also, geniuses can always be wrong and they're usually open to different ideas even if they still prefer theirs. If you have a good point and express it well, you can win a debate against anybody.Not through inane simplifications against someone with much wider perspective and insights about the layers of an issue no. What you can get is points in the eyes of onlookers more interested in catchy, easily quotable phrases simplifying something down to its basest (in all meanings of the word) simplicity, rather than expanding their horizons. 'Only look out for number one' 'Everyone loves a winner' 'Nice guys finish last' 'The world is divided into winners and loosers' 'The worth of a man lies not in his heart but in his wallet' 'Courage is to take whatever you want' 'Might makes right' 'Starvation and wars are good cures against overpopulation' 'Extreme misery and evil are neccessary to drive society forward' 'Peace is overrated. It'd get dull fast' and so on (with newer even more vile variants in lots of very youth-accessible mainstream media, like South Park or the most extreme computer games).

Used as mantras these types of catchphrases are rotting the base humanity and decency out of people at an alarming rate (especially youths with largely unformed consciousness) until all restrictions are finally fought down and society is turned into a complete mess where right and wrong are so relative that they don't even exist in the first place, honesty conscience and compassion are considered vile diseases and everyone is constantly searching for another extatic high, no matter how many they have to screw over to get it. It's likely the biggest problem facing future society. When anyone would set fire to a nursery home for kicks 'since the weaklings couldn't prevent it they deserved what happened to them', will use any extremes to amass a personal fortune, when everyone's busy to party or manipulate law or market to amass personal fortunes, noone wants to take responsibility work hard and create new inventions or entrepeneurships and advanced webs of deceit sadism and backstabbing become the way things ought to be the world will self-destruct rather quickly. :(

[The Nun]

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Though none of them stockpiled 50 kindergarten children to gut and eat them one by one, nor were they even murderers.

Good point.

[B-MAN]

Originally posted by Chigurh
I hate to tell you this but a script comes *BEFORE* the art.
Obviously a comic book is based on the words and the visuals.
So a good artist just *seemingly* makes bad writing suck less.
(take a look at any Hollywood extravaganza; they are all pretty badly written, but your brain was sated with the eye candy so it’s didn’t seem ‘that bad’ a flick)

As for CC not having control, there seems to be no indication that he was tied to an editorial leash.
He’s just out of ideas.
It’s not really a surprise that his more recently beloved titles are totally out of continuity stories.
Sorry, but writing a serialized comic within a specific universe, the job is to work with the continuity.
Maybe Starbucks is hiring.

You're right, the SCRIPT does come before art, but if the ART SUCKS then it won't last either when it comes to Superhero books. I know some will say "Vertigo titles" have proven ohtherwise, but as I said most Vertigo books aren't "mainstream" comics.

[iceman06]

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
I don't remember that one...popular commando-strikeforce-slash-kill-murder-gore-hatred-rage-big guns-knives-blood-psychopaths generally mindless tripefest book which paid his salary, rather than dragging out the philosophical justification plug from under it)...a fanatic virtual terrorist cell outside the law made him too caught up self-righteous 'might makes right' brattily self-justifying adrenaline surges to really grasp any more layered interpretations. It was a teenage 'me against all regulations' romp book with some of the worst writing in the history of the medium. Don't make it more significant than it deserves...the people most willing to use excessive force are usually the ones least interested in any type of justice or solidarity. To demand results singularily dependent on your own personal interests is the attitude of an extremely corrupted and egomaniacal individual...X-Force put itself up as judge, jury and executioner, with no laws, restrictions or responsibilities except to themselves and the very undeveloped morals of a bunch of adrenaline-dependent, militant brats who got off on self-righteousness and extreme, murderous violence...'Only look out for number one' 'Everyone loves a winner' 'Nice guys finish last' 'The world is divided into winners and loosers' 'The worth of a man lies not in his heart but in his wallet' 'Courage is to take whatever you want' 'Might makes right' 'Starvation and wars are good cures against overpopulation' 'Extreme misery and evil are neccessary to drive society forward' 'Peace is overrated. It'd get dull fast' and so on (with newer even more vile variants in lots of very youth-accessible mainstream media, like South Park or the most extreme computer games)...Used as mantras these types of catchphrases are rotting the base humanity and decency out of people at an alarming rate (especially youths with largely unformed consciousness) until all restrictions are finally fought down and society is turned into a complete mess where right and wrong are so relative that they don't even exist in the first place, honesty conscience and compassion are considered vile diseases and everyone is constantly searching for another extatic high, no matter how many they have to screw over to get it. It's likely the biggest problem facing future society. When anyone would set fire to a nursery home for kicks 'since the weaklings couldn't prevent it they deserved what happened to them', will use any extremes to amass a personal fortune, when everyone's busy to party or manipulate law or market to amass personal fortunes, noone wants to take responsibility work hard and create new inventions or entrepeneurships and advanced webs of deceit sadism and backstabbing become the way things ought to be the world will self-destruct rather quickly.

Wow! That is some quality "hogwash" (I had to find an appropriate word). Did you even read X-Force? Are you just basing your views on things you assumed about the book? You have seriously mischaracterized Nicieza's depiction of X-Force under Sam's command so much that it's even a ridiculous exaggeration of the team under Cable's command. You're just making stuff up.

At that time, Sam was more concerned about trust and protection of his team. That was his closed fist. X-Force had just been locked up simply because they were last known to be led by Cable. Rictor was locked up, and he had just rejoined the team because Cable left. Sam was going to lead under his own terms and do what he felt was right. You say Xavier is a genius who wouldn't put things in such simple terms. I say he would if he thought he was talking to a brainwashed child instead of the man he was actually having this discussion with.

Before this discussion in question, X-Force didn't do anything but hunt a(nother?) mutant terrorist group. Afterwards, Sam took his team to live in a cave in a desert so they could look after each other and deal with issues relevant to them on their own terms. They didn't run off to kill human babies in the name of mutant rights. They beat the government to Cable's lost stuff and destroyed a government plant that was about to build Nimrod Sentinels. I think that was the extent of their extremism at that time.

How was Sam choosing a path of murderous violence? What do any of those catch phrases or extremist actions you're talking about have to do with Sam's X-Force? You're blindly applying ideas that have nothing to do with the comic you're trying to criticize. Your comments just demonstrate that knowledge and ignorance can exist in the same mind.

[Samy Merchi]

First they hire Claremont to write Revolution. Then Morrison kicks him off Revolution and they send him to write X-Treme. Then they kick him off X-Treme and send him to write Genoshexcalibur and UXM. Then Bendis kicks him off Genoshexcalibur and they send him off to write New Excalibur. Now Brubaker kicks him off UXM and they send him off to start YET ANOTHER BOOK.

FOR GOD'S SAKES JUST LET THE MAN WRITE!!! DON'T MAKE HIM RESTART AND REFOCUS ALL THE FRIGGING WHILE!!!

I think Marvel's treatment of Claremont has been beyond the pale, and I am not surprised in the least if his stories have been subpar in this context. The guy's been ousted like five times in five years.

Claremont is a long-term writer. When he's made to start and stop all the while, given different casts and different status quos to work with constantly, he cannot build up momentum. He's always taken his while to get running on all cylinders. He is not being given that while to get his feet under him. I get the feeling that Marvel is intentionally trying to sabotage his reputation by hitting him with his kryptonite over and over again.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by iceman06
Wow! That is some quality "hogwash" (I had to find an appropriate word).Since you lumped everything I wrote together in jumbled disorder rather than acknowledge the musings point-by-point (heck I took myself some time to broaden your horizons a little) it diminishes the credibility of that statement.

Did you even read X-Force? Are you just basing your views on things you assumed about the book? You have seriously mischaracterized Nicieza's depiction of X-Force under Sam's command so much that it's even a ridiculous exaggeration of the team under Cable's command. You're just making stuff up. I'm basing it from what I read of the book under Cable's command. Even back then (young and stupid, reading anything cool and violent) I thought it sucked bad enough that I only read the initial run and some of the Gideon stuff, but yeah, most of them (or at least Sunspot, Shatterstar, Feral & Boom Boom) certainly seemed to fit the bratty, selfish, militant, callously self-righteous, bloodthirsty attitudes described above, while Cable fit the role of archetypical psychopath in command.

At that time, Sam was more concerned about trust and protection of his team. That was his closed fist.In the last post you seemed to explicitly make an example that closed fist should always be used to make demands and that it was a show of solidarity. That just so far off that I did some philosophical extension about it. It's up to you if you wish to listen.

X-Force had just been locked up simply because they were last known to be led by Cable. Rictor was locked up, and he had just rejoined the team because Cable left. Sam was going to lead under his own terms and do what he felt was right. You say Xavier is a genius who wouldn't put things in such simple terms. I say he would if he thought he was talking to a brainwashed child instead of the man he was actually having this discussion with.Sam was leading a bunch of bloodthirsty vigilantes envisioning themselves a law unto themselves. That's not a man, that's a spoiled brat. Making the argument that simple is certainly not a trait of quality writing. I'm giving him the benefit of doubt (since I ejoyed Nicieza's New Warriors and sort of liked his Cable&Deadpool run and know from that he isn't an idiot... not saying that he didn't severely simplifiy his style in X-Force or wrote any good X-Men stuff) and making a case for how it would make sense and be in-character.

Before this discussion in question, X-Force didn't do anything but hunt a(nother?) mutant terrorist group. Afterwards, Sam took his team to live in a cave in a desert so they could look after each other and deal with issues relevant to them on their own terms. They didn't run off to kill human babies in the name of mutant rights. They beat the government to Cable's lost stuff and destroyed a government plant that was about to build Nimrod Sentinels. I think that was the extent of their extremism at that time.Good point and, given that I didn't follow the book past the initial run, good info. The thing is, most of my last post wasn't intended explicitly attacking the X-Force book itself, I was attacking that kind of me-against-the-world ends-justify-the-means I'm-a-law-unto-myself mindset in general. I easily get started when any subject alludes to that particular can of worms.

How was Sam choosing a path of murderous violence? What do any of those catch phrases or extremist actions you're talking about have to do with Sam's X-Force? You're blindly applying ideas that have nothing to do with the comic you're trying to criticize. Your comments just demonstrate that knowledge and ignorance can exist in the same mind.I read Cable's X-Force and remember a lot of youthful in-your-face-authority arrogance, big guns, ultra-violence addicted characters etc, so you're right that I'm not a guru about the team. I haven't memorised the entire 100+ issue run. I do however have a lot of incredibly bad experience with these types of people, who seem to get more numerous every day with the extreme computer game&internet age and the extreme violence-over-substance/attitude-over-understanding early Liefield X-Force and shortly afterwards left a lasting very bad impression with me as an early indication of that type of mentality.

That said we're all ignorant about most things. However it doesn't diminish the points about things we do understand.

[iceman06]

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Since you lumped everything I wrote together in jumbled disorder rather than acknowledge the musings point-by-point (heck I took myself some time to broaden your horizons a little) it diminishes the credibility of that statement.

I lumped them together because none of it had anything to do with X-Force or the behaviors of anyone on the team at the time. It does not diminish my argument at all to say that you are applying your musings to the wrong argument becuase you admittedly don't know the subject we're discussing. Maybe, we can discuss this if you would cut out stuff like the silly list of catchphrases and the rant on modern society. Also, I don't need you to broaden my horizons. You don't know my horizons.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
I'm basing it from what I read of the book under Cable's command. Even back then (young and stupid, reading anything cool and violent) I thought it sucked bad enough that I only read the initial run and some of the Gideon stuff, but yeah, most of them (or at least Sunspot, Shatterstar, Feral & Boom Boom) certainly seemed to fit the bratty, selfish, militant, callously self-righteous, bloodthirsty attitudes described above, while Cable fit the role of archetypical psychopath in command.

Apparently, you only read the 1st year or so. Cannonball actually did a great job of harnessing the aggressive behaviors of his teammates. Again, Xavier thought he was talking to a victim of Cable's brainwashing when he was talking to a man with his own mind.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
In the last post you seemed to explicitly make an example that closed fist should always be used to make demands and that it was a show of solidarity. That just so far off that I did some philosophical extension about it. It's up to you if you wish to listen.

That's nice how you threw "always" in there to change what I said. Again, I use my words carefully so that's not going to work. I distinctly recall using the word "can" to describe what the closed fist can be used for. You're so far off that you might want to reel back that philosophical extension.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Sam was leading a bunch of bloodthirsty vigilantes envisioning themselves a law unto themselves. That's not a man, that's a spoiled brat. Making the argument that simple is certainly not a trait of quality writing. I'm giving him the benefit of doubt (since I ejoyed Nicieza's New Warriors and sort of liked his Cable&Deadpool run and know from that he isn't an idiot... not saying that he didn't severely simplifiy his style in X-Force or wrote any good X-Men stuff) and making a case for how it would make sense and be in-character.

If X-Force was bloodthristy, give me examples of when the kids killed. All you'll find is Shatterstar cutting off the hands of a mutant terrorist and Feral seriously injuring Cannonball in a training session. Both happened under Cable's command before Sam took over as leader. Aside from hunting down and attacking the terrorist group known as the MLF, how did X-Force take the law unto themselves any more than the X-Men? It just seems like you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Good point and, given that I didn't follow the book past the initial run, good info. The thing is, most of my last post wasn't intended explicitly attacking the X-Force book itself, I was attacking that kind of me-against-the-world ends-justify-the-means I'm-a-law-unto-myself mindset in general. I easily get started when any subject alludes to that particular can of worms.

I just described the 2nd and 3rd years of X-Force. Did you quit the book when Liefeld did? Again, your platitudes don't address what actually happened in the book which is what we're discussing. Since you get started so easily, restrain yourself and get back to me if you have anything else to say.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
I read Cable's X-Force and remember a lot of youthful in-your-face-authority arrogance, big guns, ultra-violence addicted characters etc, so you're right that I'm not a guru about the team. I haven't memorised the entire 100+ issue run. I do however have a lot of incredibly bad experience with these types of people, who seem to get more numerous every day with the extreme computer game&internet age and the extreme violence-over-substance/attitude-over-understanding early Liefield X-Force and shortly afterwards left a lasting very bad impression with me as an early indication of that type of mentality.

Why harp on Cable's X-Force when Sam's X-Force was different? Cable and Domino were the only one who used guns. They were gone when Sam lead. Rictor was staunchly anti-guns. And there you go talking about those crazy kids you have to deal with that still don't have anything to do with X-Force. Cannonball is not your enemy.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
That said we're all ignorant about most things. However it doesn't diminish the points about things we do understand.

I'm saying that since you are admittedly ignorant about what actually happened in X-Force (especially regarding Sam's leadership and leadership philosophy), it's a waste of my time to discuss this with you. I just happen to have time to waste and find this a little entertaining.

[BurgundyTears]

Originally posted by iceman06
I lumped them together because none of it had anything to do with X-Force or the behaviors of anyone on the team at the time. It does not diminish my argument at all to say that you are applying your musings to the wrong argument becuase you admittedly don't know the subject we're discussing.It dimishes your statement that every single thing I wrote was a bunch of hogwash, which was a considerable drop-down from the comparatively civil tone I had used previously. Also, that's just the thing, I'm willing to admit that I base my impressions from the attitudes shown during the first year. You resorted to insults instead of considering the points I did have.

Maybe, we can discuss this if you would cut out stuff like the silly list of catchphrases and the rant on modern society.Of course they're silly, that's the entire point. Everyone gets corrupted from this type of base thinking, but I nonetheless hear so damn many peoples use them as mantras all the time.

Also, I don't need you to broaden my horizons. You don't know my horizons.Everyone needs new perspectives. That's not meant to be demeaning. You can't uniformly call everything I say a worthless rant instead of considering and replying your own ideas.

Apparently, you only read the 1st year or so. Cannonball actually did a great job of harnessing the aggressive behaviors of his teammates. Again, Xavier thought he was talking to a victim of Cable's brainwashing when he was talking to a man with his own mind.Ok I'll take your word for it. See, I'm not unreasonable or fanatic, this kind of tone drives the point home pretty well.

That's nice how you threw "always" in there to change what I said. Again, I use my words carefully so that's not going to work. I distinctly recall using the word "can" to describe what the closed fist can be used for.I'm writing down as I understood the previous discussion from memory, not intentionally manipulating a point. It's not my style. If you meant something less extreme than what I thought you were saying then that happens and you could have informed me about that in the first place if you had replied to that specific sentence.

You're so far off that you might want to reel back that philosophical extension.I rather liked what I came up with in my philosophical musings and think they're very sound in themselves, but shouldn't be seen as anything other than an extension I came to think about.

If X-Force was bloodthristy, give me examples of when the kids killed. All you'll find is Shatterstar cutting off the hands of a mutant terrorist and Feral seriously injuring Cannonball in a training session. Both happened under Cable's command before Sam took over as leader. Aside from hunting down and attacking the terrorist group known as the MLF, how did X-Force take the law unto themselves any more than the X-Men? It just seems like you don't know what you're talking about.The X-Men at the time at least had government connections and Xavier had fairly tight ethical views about not breaking the law or using excessive force. That has admittedly loosened now and then over the years without much explanation.

X-Force had a two kill-crazy berzerkers in Feral&Shatterstar, 1-2 ultramilitant commandos in Cable&Domino and 1 extremely arrogant self-centered brat and wannabe criminal power-broker in Sunspot. Cannonball and Warpath were the only characters who actually seemed somewhat likeable. They went far enough to mount up Masque's head on a pike to make an example and Cable stated that this was going to be the forthcoming way they would handle their strikeforce proactive agenda. How the heck am I not going to get a really bad impression from that? I mostly stopped reading soon afterwards, with a few short check-ups now and then over the years.

I just described the 2nd and 3rd years of X-Force. Did you quit the book when Liefeld did?Around that time yeah. I had become severely put off, though I checked up on it very occasionally.

Again, your platitudes don't address what actually happened in the book which is what we're discussing. Personally I've always thought themathical musings building on what you've understood as equally important.

Since you get started so easily, restrain yourself and get back to me if you have anything else to say.Nah not really. I said what I needed to say in the first post above and you corrected me about that the comic developed away from what I saw.

Why harp on Cable's X-Force when Sam's X-Force was different?Because I remember the earliest stories as the forerunner or kick-off for the early 90's pointless überviolence books which screwed up the industry and got a thematical far more influential follow-through in the most extreme current computer games. I've talked with too many people who've turned into really really scary monsters from a complete overload of that kind of stuff to just shrug it off.

Cable and Domino were the only one who used guns. They were gone when Sam lead.Yeah, but the rest didn't really need them due to their powers and Feral and Warpath were also remorseless killers. Then again so is Wolverine.

Rictor was staunchly anti-guns. And there you go talking about those crazy kids you have to deal with that still don't have anything to do with X-Force. Cannonball is not your enemy.No he isn't. I kind of liked Sam and Warpath. I don't remember much of Rictor.

I'm saying that since you are admittedly ignorant about what actually happened in X-Force (especially regarding Sam's leadership and leadership philosophy), it's a waste of my time to discuss this with you. I just happen to have time to waste and find this a little entertaining.Yeah but I never claimed to know more than the initial run. I was musing about the stuff you explained to me and think I came up with a few good pieces. Still, this is turning pretty round-round pointless to me as well.

[iceman06]

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
It dimishes your statement that every single thing I wrote was a bunch of hogwash, which was a considerable drop-down from the comparatively civil tone I had used previously. Also, that's just the thing, I'm willing to admit that I base my impressions from the attitudes shown during the first year. You resorted to insults instead of considering the points I did have.

Seriously, you abandoned the actual topic to give a spiel it seems you've given countless times before. You didn't know about Cannonball's X-Force as you have since admitted, and you essentially tried to change the topic in a cloud of irrelevant musings. I found that insulting. Now, I considered your points, but had I addressed everything point-by-point, I would no longer be talking about Cannonball and X-Force. I would be about something else entirely.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Of course they're silly, that's the entire point. Everyone gets corrupted from this type of base thinking, but I nonetheless hear so damn many peoples use them as mantras all the time.

My point is that it has no place in this discussion. X-Force didn't use the catchphrases and mantras. Stick to what actually took place in the comic.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Everyone needs new perspectives. That's not meant to be demeaning. You can't uniformly call everything I say a worthless rant instead of considering and replying your own ideas.

I'm completely open to different perspectives, but your comment about you making the extra effort to broaden my horizons was very patronizing and insulting. You don't know what I know so instead of trying to lecture me, just address the topic at hand.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
I'm writing down as I understood the previous discussion from memory, not intentionally manipulating a point. It's not my style. If you meant something less extreme than what I thought you were saying then that happens and you could have informed me about that in the first place if you had replied to that specific sentence.

Well, you misunderstood what I said, but what I said was very clear. At least, you understand now. Now, you're try to blame me when it was all your irrelevant information changed the discussion.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
I rather liked what I came up with in my philosophical musings and think they're very sound in themselves, but shouldn't be seen as anything other than an extension I came to think about.

They may be sound, but they were irrelevant. You could have done a mathematical proof or written a doctoral thesis, but it won't have anything to say about Cannonball's leadership unless you use something from the comics.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
The X-Men at the time at least had government connections and Xavier had fairly tight ethical views about not breaking the law or using excessive force. That has admittedly loosened now and then over the years without much explanation.

So, the only differences were that Xavier had government connections and waited for terrorists to strike before doing anything about them. It's also important to note that Cable was more aware of how dangerous Stryfe and Apocalypse were than Xavier. Even more interesting is that none of this has anything to do with Sam's X-Force which basically went to a cave in the desert to take care of each other.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
X-Force had a two kill-crazy berzerkers in Feral&Shatterstar, 1-2 ultramilitant commandos in Cable&Domino and 1 extremely arrogant self-centered brat and wannabe criminal power-broker in Sunspot. Cannonball and Warpath were the only characters who actually seemed somewhat likeable. They went far enough to mount up Masque's head on a pike to make an example and Cable stated that this was going to be the forthcoming way they would handle their strikeforce proactive agenda. How the heck am I not going to get a really bad impression from that? I mostly stopped reading soon afterwards, with a few short check-ups now and then over the years.

If Shatterstar and Feral were so kill-crazy, list any instances in which they were known to have killed at the time. Cable and Domino were not on the team. Sunspot, who didn't joined until after Cable and Domino left, was held in check by Cannonball. Again, you're using examples of Cable's leadership to dismiss Cannonball's leadership.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Personally I've always thought themathical musings building on what you've understood as equally important.

I think that depends on whether the topic is specific or general as well as whether the musings are built on what's known and relevant or what's assumed and irrelevant.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Nah not really. I said what I needed to say in the first post above and you corrected me about that the comic developed away from what I saw.

Well, it's good to know we have an understanding.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Because I remember the earliest stories as the forerunner or kick-off for the early 90's pointless überviolence books which screwed up the industry and got a thematical far more influential follow-through in the most extreme current computer games. I've talked with too many people who've turned into really really scary monsters from a complete overload of that kind of stuff to just shrug it off.

Well, don't shrug it off then. Go talk about it somewhere it's relevant. Since you don't know Cannonball's X-Force, don't try to apply this stuff to it.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Yeah, but the rest didn't really need them due to their powers and Feral and Warpath were also remorseless killers. Then again so is Wolverine.

Feral was not exposed as a killer until long after you left the book. X-Force turned her into the police. I know you meant Shatterstar instead of Warpath, but Shatterstar did not kill because behavior was restrained by his leaders. It was explained to him that he was no longer fighting in the war that he left on his homeworld.

Originally posted by BurgundyTears
Yeah but I never claimed to know more than the initial run. I was musing about the stuff you explained to me and think I came up with a few good pieces. Still, this is turning pretty round-round pointless to me as well.

Maybe, I wasn't clear, but that just goes to show that we shouldn't even be having this discussion if I have to first explain what happened to you in order to debate what happened with you.

[Samy Merchi]

iceman, you have it down. Yes, the first year or so of X-Force was violent and it could be said even murderous under Cable's command (see what they did to Masque for instance).

BUT

As soon as Liefeld left, and Cable was written out, and Sam took charge (about 12 issues into the book), the team was re-shaped by Sam into, yes, authority-defying people but ALSO moral people.

Writing off the entire X-Force concept as exemplifying violence et al is just wrong. The first year can be written off, yes, but the 100+ issues after that were far deeper and far more moral than that. (Well okay, maybe not the Ellis run.)

[Chigurh]

Originally posted by Samy Merchi I think Marvel's treatment of Claremont has been beyond the pale, and I am not surprised in the least if his stories have been subpar in this context. The guy's been ousted like five times in five years.

It’s a business. Tell your boy to come up with a half decent plot and then pitch it. Marvel clearly thinks these other guys have better stories to tell.
Claremont’s lucky he has a job.

Your excuses are tiring. Just like a Claremont story.

[geekoftheday]

Claremont is justing running out of things to write. these other writers are coming in with fresh ideas, and that's important so that the x-men can move forward.