JIC: PEACE IN OUR TIME?

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Image/Modern.jpg" width="185" height="290" border="0" hspace="2" align="right"><i>by Mike San Giacomo</I>

Marvel President Bill Jemas is in China this week where he will explore bringing Marvel Comics to a new land and see what kind of comics the Chinese may have to offer Marvel in return. He's on vacation, but like any good businessman, also wants to explore a new frontier.

Fifteen, even 10 years ago, fans would not know about Bill's trip.

The immediacy of the Internet has changed the rules about the relationship between the people who create comics and the people who read them. I'm not sure it's such a good thing.

Sure, it's great to know about projects immediately, but often it's too fast. Years ago, I reported that James Robinson was starting work on an <b>X-Men/Wildcats</b> crossover. It was three years before the comics were actually released and I have to wonder if I did a disservice by getting people excited about it so far in advance.

Back in "the day" the only contact fans had with creators was through the letters pages. It was rare that any fan would actually call Marvel or DC creators on the phone to chat. But today I'd wager that many fans have conversed with their most and least favorite creators through e-mails or indirectly through message boards.

Which brings us to my point about why this might not be such a good thing.

If a creator actually takes Internet criticism seriously, he'll go insane. He could be the greatest writer or artist in the world and there will be people that soundly thrash his efforts. If he tries to please them, he'll anger another group.

Some people get angry if you don't follow their advice or do what they think you should do. Message boards are loaded with vitriolic notes from people with opinions about everything.

The reason is: you can't please everybody.

A few months ago I wrote a column which including a number of absolute truths to prove the point that there is no longer any such thing. No matter how correct and obvious a statement, some people will disagree. I don't believe a single one of my incontrovertible statements (such as "Alan Moore is a great writer" or "Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the greatest Fantastic Four creators") survived unscathed.

I don't know what can be done about this; it's too late to get the genie back into the bottle.

As amusing as it is to think that perhaps Kevin Smith had the right idea about cyber justice at the end of <I>Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back</I>, where the guys tracked down their attackers one at a time, that wouldn't work.

There are too many of them.

Besides, change has to come from within.

So let this be one voice in the cyber-wilderness urging others to think before they type; suggest rather than demand; point out before you criticize and don't say anything in print you would not say to someone's face.

In the words of the prophet Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

[Christian Otte]

Originally posted by MattBrady
[...] Don't say anything in print you would not say to someone's face. I abso-tute-ly agree.

[blackandwhite]

me too. :(

think before u speak or write :)

[Benjamin Ong]

Peace to all. There's already way too much violence and hatred in the world as it is. We don't need another "war" here.

[Sean Walsh]

Further proof that Darkseid needs to get his hands on the Anti-Life Equation and take over the universe:

Free will and thinking is no damn good!!!!

Sean
:)

[saiyanspider]

While I agree absolutely with Mr.. Jemas, what does this have to do with Hong Kong comics? Btw HK comics are much better than manga, although manga has more diverse genres, but the art is simply wonderful. Please everyone do yourself a favor and pick up Batman: Hong Kong, with art chores by Tony Wong. Please don't write off any artist from HK as "more manga crap" because that is simply NOT the case. The art is completely different in style, detail, and definitely in storytelling.

[L'Zoril]

Originally posted by MattBrady
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Image/Modern.jpg" width="185" height="290" border="0" hspace="2" align="right"><i>by Mike San Giacomo</I>

Sure, it's great to know about projects immediately, but often it's too fast. Years ago, I reported that James Robinson was starting work on an <b>X-Men/Wildcats</b> crossover. It was three years before the comics were actually released and I have to wonder if I did a disservice by getting people excited about it so far in advance.

I think it's ok to know things right away. Not only in comics, but in any media. What you said about the James Robinson project was only informing that he was planning to make the crossover. It's not the Internet's fault that the author had delayed (I don't know if he was) with the comic book. The same would have happened without Internet or e-mail. The fact that people got over excited is a normal reaction like what happened with DK2.

To be fair, maybe the thing about the Internet is that it is so damn fast that that the news aren't verified correctly before being delivered all over the world. Something happens and the next minute : BAM! some kid in Zaire finds out. The news might have reported an erroneous fact. but it doesn't matter anymore. Everyone is badly informed by the time they find out.


If a creator actually takes Internet criticism seriously, he'll go insane. He could be the greatest writer or artist in the world and there will be people that soundly thrash his efforts. If he tries to please them, he'll anger another group.

Some people get angry if you don't follow their advice or do what they think you should do. Message boards are loaded with vitriolic notes from people with opinions about everything.

The reason is: you can't please everybody.
[/B]

A creator should never take crticism seriously. If he does, at least let it be from a real and proffesional critic and not from message boards like this one. Most of the posters act like kids and kids are extremely cruel. They complain abour one thing, and when you try to satisfy them, they complain about the opposite.

A creator should follow his/her own vision in order to make something true and real. No one can go around trying to please everybody. As you said it, he would go insane.

And that's new to me.

[Proutcast]

I Agree 100000000000000000000 % with this artical. Every word of it is true and right on the money.


Personally, I remember when I used to go get comics before the internet, Id walk in and pick up my fav titles and grab others based on the covers. Now, Im older and there is this thing called the internet where you can get previews (even whole 10 page spreads), reviews from real writers an fans alike, and all other kinds of info. I find myself rejecting or imbracing titles before I even see them on shelve's due to internet bable. (Thats dumb on my part)

Like this article said, the internet is great in some areas but its also bad in others.


:o .........................:(


I hope everyone reads this article and agrees....but I know someone out ther wont ;)

[Buzzowl2]

This is a subject I've grappled with for awhile. Growing up in a rural part of the country, my only contact with comic-book creators and publishers was through the comics.

Even that link was sketchy. I got my comics in the "local" pharmacy 30 miles away. They were late and the selection was varied and there was no guarantee my favorites wouldn't be sold out.

I'm pretty sure I liked comics better than. I certainly liked them in a different way. They were mysterious, exotic, and engaging.

They really let me glimpse two worlds: the imaginary world of the Marvel Universe, where super-powered heroes lived; and the (equally imaginary) world of Stan Lee's New York, where my favorite creators worked happily together in the Bullpen to craft these great stories.

Now, we're all treated to "insider knowledge" of the industry and the creators. I've met these hallowed figures at conventions and chatted with them online. They've never really lived up to my hopes.

Fandom becomes more and more cynical. Creators and fans openly "brawl" online. Familiarity breeds contempt, I guess.

Then again...

Creators don't HAVE to attend conventions. And they certainly don't HAVE to hang around message boards online. But they've chosen to, for the most part. And they continue to.

Why? I don't know. But I think it's somewhat unique in the entertainment world. You don't see Stephen Spielberg, Aaron Spelling, or even Tori Spelling opening up to that level of accessibility to fans on an ongoing basis.

In fact, I can't think of any popular medium where the veil of separation between successful artists and their fans is more transparent.

Creators in all forms rely on that separation to create and air of mystique. I think it's brave that many comics creators forego it as much as they do.

[MikeD]

SLIGHTLY OFF-TOPIC: Was Robinson's WildCATS/X-men series any good? Was it ever collected as a TPB?

[Pariah]

Mike, I respectfully disagree. Where would the fun be in posting messages if we all just said "Yeah, I agree". I think XFan reads like that too often and so I skip browsing their user posts.

Democracy is about having a voice, no matter how obnoxious you are, and expressing your opinion. I heartily thank Matt for giving us that chance here. I think it adds to my feelings for the comic community and enhances how I read and view my comics.

If you want message boards where everyone gets along, I suggest you follow Mr. Jemas to China.

Glad to have a voice.

[mpg]

i feel like...people like a fight....we watch them on tv...read them in comics....and in novels....so why wouldnt they want one online as well? its human nature..its not so surprising...

i wont say what percentage of people i think are below average on a sociable level....but electronic print is ..by far..the easiest and the least accountable way to blow steam....

anybody can be a big man behind a keyboard.....you gotta consider the source....i aint saying its good or right...but you can tell when it is going on....peopel loove to come in....throw a quick punch..see if anybody reacts...then the game begins...

can be fun..funny to watch...or lame...or nasty and unfortunate....but it is generally harmless.....i guess dont be so affected by people....in every aspect of life

as far as the too early aspect....well..i guess it can be bad....but...how bad can it be that people go to a shop and keep asking if a book has come in yet?? and..unless they let the retailer return some of the books they order....they should be given evry bit of info to help determine what to order....cuz they are stuck with the product if it cant sell....

[shakey]

While I agree that message board folk should be polite in their posts, be they positive or negative, crass audience behavior is on the rise in every form of entertainment .

Talk Radio and TV has gone from a civil debate where both sides rely on the strength of their arguments to make thieir points, to yelling contests.

From the Father and Son duo that went on the field to beat up the baseball coach in Chicago, to city riots after local teams win a championship.

As they pointed out on the Daily Show last night, The citizens of New York were commended for NOT rioting during the blackout, shouldn't that behavior be simple common sense?

Oh well, back to the uglliness, already in progress.

[mpg]

back to the ugliness indeed

[rdcoyner]

So, I'm just wondering if this was maybe brought on by the Chuck Austen interview over on http://www.comicon.com/pulse/ that has caused a lot of online discussion over the last couple days. Not that it's a bad thing either way.

[NotAnIssue]

Unfair/harsh criticism? Come on...this is new? The only thing that's changed is the quantity of voices. Creators should have no problem blocking that out. The people online represent a small fraction of comic readership.

You expect comic creators to be the entertainment exception? Other than Ron Zimmerman, I can't think of any comic creators that get even a fraction of the crap Jennifer Lopez/Ben Affleck are getting at the moment. Musicians, sports figures, etc ALL have to deal with heaps of criticism when they go anywhere in public. Any given comic creator has only to turn off his computer monitor to get away from it.

I'm not advocating every disgruntled fanboy with a half-formed opinion sharing his bile with the world, but as you said, nothing can be done about that.

As far as comics news reaching the masses faster than ever, I'd say the good outweighs the bad on that too. The news gets people hyped up for upcoming releases. There are plenty of people who want to know what's coming up far in advance for curiosity/monetary reasons. But there are people who want to be surprised when the hit the shop each week/month, and I'd say it isn't hard for them to skip news releases on websites. A little more effort on the part of website editors could keep those article titles more 'spoiler-free'.

I enjoy your column Mike, but this particular entry seemed a little unnecessary.

[ramberk]

Originally posted by Pariah
Mike, I respectfully disagree. Where would the fun be in posting messages if we all just said "Yeah, I agree". I think XFan reads like that too often and so I skip browsing their user posts.

Democracy is about having a voice, no matter how obnoxious you are, and expressing your opinion. I heartily thank Matt for giving us that chance here. I think it adds to my feelings for the comic community and enhances how I read and view my comics.

If you want message boards where everyone gets along, I suggest you follow Mr. Jemas to China.

Glad to have a voice.

I think you missed the point. Matt could just do away with the message boards if he wanted to shut everyone up. The point he was trying to get across was for everyone to be more thoughtful about what they post.

I like message boards and visit several boards that cover a variety of topics (from computers to videogames to toys). Newsarama is the only comic book message board I visit, but it's the worst message board I visit. People here are rude, obnoxious and just plain nasty. I don't know why that is. But if people think that all message boards are havens for foul mouthed fools-- they are wrong.

Maybe it's time for Matt to moderate the boards or start banning people cause we simply don't have any self-control.

[shakey]

I'm not sure why that's a bad thing Mike. Yes some will slam a future project just by hearing the writer or artist's name, but I think it's just advanced marketing of an eventual product.

Your X-men -Wildcats is one case. Are fans going to be in the wrong during next year's convention season for asking for the status of the next League Of Extrordinary Gentleman story?
We know Moore is stepping away from mainstream comics, but we get assurances that he and O'Neil have a next chapter in mind.

What about books like DC's aborted revival of THUNDER AGENTS , or the Princess Di X-STATIC storyline? Here's two cases where the publishers use the Net to get buzz about a book, then for various reasons the projects get cancelled. Things happen, but what's wrong with releasing a statement on why a project didn't work out? Fans don't need to know every boardroom detail, but if it's worthy of advanced publkicity, isn't it fair to ask what happened ?

Talk like that is good. It means pootential buyers are interested in a company's products.

[MattBrady]

Originally posted by rdcoyner
So, I'm just wondering if this was maybe brought on by the Chuck Austen interview over on http://www.comicon.com/pulse/ that has caused a lot of online discussion over the last couple days. Not that it's a bad thing either way.

no - Mike's column was written and sent last Thursday. There were some techincal problems with the formatting of it, and there wasn't room for it until today.

MattB

[JackKirby is GO]

"If a creator actually takes Internet criticism seriously, he'll go insane. He could be the greatest writer or artist in the world and there will be people that soundly thrash his efforts.<-- (I made this statement in a recent post, im not sure on what website, but I totally agree)

The reason is: you can't please everybody. <--(Amen, and if you aren't pleased make sure to be an adult about how you approach your reaction)

I completely understand and comprehend that people do not have the same opinion as mine. When I write a post about how I feel about something when it is about something I do not care about, I make sure to let the readers know that it is merely my opinion, and I find that this is a forum that I can express myself and openly let people know how I feel about a certain comic or comic related situation. I am definitely not one of the people who attack those who post a vile attack, that is obviously posted through anger. In some cases those post may be to just vent there frustration and helplessness they feel about a situation that they in no way have the ability change because they obviously do not have say Bill Jemas's # on speed dial. It can be a form of cheap therapy. Those situations tend to blow up and get somebody may read it and the anger that fills the post infects that person and causes another angry post except this post is toward the post-e (not a word I know)

When I am posting something I know may be sensitive I try to make clear as possible that it is only my OPINION. Nothing that I am saying is to hurt anyone, but is a thought I wanted to express. I definitely do not post anything I would not say to someone's face. (just ask the ex-skin who beat the crap out of me at a Blanks 77 show in the mid-nineties)

There are those though who seek out fights, and the Internet is no different. Every board has them, at least public ones. After being flamed by someone after I posted my opinion, which as usual I tried to humble myself the best I could and to let the readers know that I am just using the forum to give my thoughts and sometimes my wives thought on a project. We don't go crazy and we don't get mean. Anyway, after that I decided to follow that persons posts (it was actually two people who seem to post together) on older boards and other new boards, and I found that they do not start with a fresh idea but rather have instigated a quarrel in all the situations. The good news is that I have not noticed it is a wide spread thing on Newsarama, and is basically just those two.

I personally like to use this site a forum to talk about something I love, and have loved since I was 5 years old. I really like having a place I can go to talk about comics from many perspectives. We are lucky to have the support of CSN which has been around for a looong time (I wish they still put the old Batman comic strips in the back). Remember to give back to the community you are involved in. And try to make a positive impact.

thank you,
a crusty peace punk trying to back to D.C..

[QCCBob]

Originally posted by MattBrady
Marvel President Bill Jemas is in China this week where he will explore bringing Marvel Comics to a new land and see what kind of comics the Chinese may have to offer Marvel in return. He's on vacation, but like any good businessman, also wants to explore a new frontier.

He should stay there. When people disagree with Mr. J and Joe, they are in need of an IQ test and if employees disagree with them, they get fired or threatened with it. China sounds like the PERFECT place for him.

I still abide by the Golden Rule. If you treat someone respectfully, you get respect. If you want to be obnoxious, okey dokey.

[mpg]

wow

[StoneGold]

Originally posted by QCCBob
He should stay there. When people disagree with Mr. J and Joe, they are in need of an IQ test and if employees disagree with them, they get fired or threatened with it. China sounds like the PERFECT place for him.

I still abide by the Golden Rule. If you treat someone respectfully, you get respect. If you want to be obnoxious, okey dokey.

You're just funny man. Single minded, but funny as hell. Come on, you could have even had some class, compared Jemas to Nixon, do something along the lines of "It took Jemas to go to China," but you had to go he should stay there? Come on man, use some more creativity than that!

[Razak]

Originally posted by saiyanspider
While I agree absolutely with Mr.. Jemas, what does this have to do with Hong Kong comics? Btw HK comics are much better than manga, although manga has more diverse genres, but the art is simply wonderful. Please everyone do yourself a favor and pick up Batman: Hong Kong, with art chores by Tony Wong. Please don't write off any artist from HK as "more manga crap" because that is simply NOT the case. The art is completely different in style, detail, and definitely in storytelling.
They're called manhua, and if you want real manhua, I suggest finding old Jademan or Jade Dynasty back issues from the 80s, which was when the manhua industry was in it's best form... even in mainland China.

Given the state of the comic book industry there in HK and particularly in the mainland provinces, there's very little real success potential for Marvel to make in-roads. As with Japan, it would be more a niche market than anything else within the printed realm, though even much more so in China's case given the more insular nature and attitudes towards comics there.

And Comics One is already doing a good job of releasing english translated manhua here in the states and too many people ignorant of the differences are already quick enough to lump them into the broad category of manga.

[QCCBob]

Originally posted by ramberk
Maybe it's time for Matt to moderate the boards or start banning people cause we simply don't have any self-control.

Huh, I though you were from Berkeley, CA...didn't know there was a Berkeley in Communist China...:p You have no self-control, prepare to die!;)

Matt and company do a pretty good job of moderating and, when things get out of hand, they pretty much nail it. The definition of 'out of hand' seems to be the issue. Being negative, i.e. not liking something or disagreeing with someone is NOT always out of control here. Some posters like vigorous debate. Those of you who want to be in 'yes men' heaven can always go to whatever X-fan is called now and be secure in the knowledge that only pros are allowed to be insulting there.:p :D

[QCCBob]

Originally posted by StoneGold
Come on man, use some more creativity than that!
It's been a long week...:( I'm trying to be good since that seems to be the ongoing theme of the past few weeks.

[DrCool976]

The Pulse is a far better forum than this one.

The moderators don't offer up as many disapproving wagging fingers after every negative post.

[mpg]

who needs a lil positivity anyways??

[pifpog]

I'm all for encouraging people to be more thoughtful in their postings to others. There is entirely too much of a school yard one-ups-man-ship on these boards. I've never been sure if this situation is due to is the power that comes from having your voice heard in a wider forum of your peers, the strength that comes from having your identity be unknown, or some other cause. But we are all here for the same reasons and no one here is my enemy.

That being said, I'm dead set against the sanitizing of the internet. Clearly there is an increasing call for it... Austen's interview and Quesada's accusation that the internet was killing the industry are the most recent examples. But I think this is just the self-serving interests of people who are trying to control all of the spin on their product.

We live in a world where our news is being increasingly watered down. With seven or eight companies controlling the majority of what we watch or read, those in the media are particularly concerned over whose toes they step on. How many stories of corporate corruption have been surpressed because they advertised heavily on the network? Or because the editors of the paper were chosen for their political leanings?

In many ways, the internet is the last bastion of the free exchange of ideas and opinions. Sure, a lot of people, to paraphrase Steve Martin, criticize things they don't know about. But every now and then you get this new outlook, this new perspective that makes things click into place.

And, frankly, if a particular writer stinks, I want to know about it. Same way if I was standing near the counter of my local comics shop, I'd hope that someone would mention that a particular title was great or stinking up the joint. The internet brings together communities to share information and opinions. This is no tea room discussion.

Finally, I believe that on the internet you sow as you reap. Name for me five threads where Paul Levitz is featured prominantly? Compare that to the usual tirades against Joe and Jemas. Marvel made a decision to use the internet to build their image and the image they wanted was a couple of bad boys tearing through the industry (anyone want to talk about Bill and Joe's Big Adventures? The constant cracks about AOL and DC?). Which is fine -- it created a hipness next to DC's corporate personna. However, it also created a couple of big bloated egos for targets in an environment where democracy is the watchword.

Just my thoughts.

[Proutcast]

Getting back to the thing about internet hype and stuff....
check this out

www.thefourthrail.com
reveiwer Randy Lander said this.........
Review of MARVEL 1602 #1
" So here's the problem with heavy hype... it builds up high expectations. And when the hype is backed by the anticipation of one of comics' few superstars returning to the medium, those expectations are even higher. So maybe it's no surprise that I'm a little disappointed in 1602, and maybe I'm being harder on it than I would have been if it was just some random new series."

http://www.thefourthrail.com/reviews/snapjudgments/081103/marvel1602-1.shtml

Thats the diiference between the old days and now.

A poster above stated that

"I'm pretty sure I liked comics better than. I certainly liked them in a different way. They were mysterious, exotic, and engaging."

When I was young I would get an X-Men comic and I would say wow at the art read the story and enjoy myself, never once caring who was writing or drawing it. (Not that I "really" didnt care) but the comic was what had my attention.

Now that Im older I find myelf hoping the next issue will be good becouse so and so is drawing it or writing it and i wont get that becouse so and so was horrible on comic xyz, its getting sad. I read alot of threads about upcomming comics where people say "I dont like so and so charater but gee wiz so and so is writing so Im there dude".
I dont know, I guess most comic fans are just older now and less of those mistified children that was used to be are reading comics.

Well.....That probobly made no sense so .....blah!

[mpg]

i dunno...

i am someone who does mind hearing about a movie before i have seen it....I didnt go see matrix reloaded because of discussions about it....but i will go see freddy vs jason...bhecuz of some of the scenes i have heard about

i would have missed the dark phoenix thing in x2...if my buddy hadnt told me about it.....(it happens :) )

the surprise factor is a good thing....but it isnt the only thing....the substance of the product is what wins out....

i also get the feeling that .... there is a tendency to need to find something wrong in a review....the need to criticize something....almost like a reviewer is putting too much of their reputation or integrity at stake in really just digging in and enjoying something....rarely is there ever a perfect comic book...but it is even more rare to see someone say that (see the jla/avengers preview thread....my humble opinion..is that it doesnt get any better than that....yet we saw many good critiques of the book..ones i would have never even thought of)

i think it also factors in...that a good ripping cann be hilarous...and i think people look for that good rip

[mpg]

Originally posted by Proutcast
Getting back to the thing about internet hype and stuff....
check this out

www.thefourthrail.com
reveiwer Randy Lander said this.........
Review of MARVEL 1602 #1
" So here's the problem with heavy hype... it builds up high expectations. And when the hype is backed by the anticipation of one of comics' few superstars returning to the medium, those expectations are even higher. So maybe it's no surprise that I'm a little disappointed in 1602, and maybe I'm being harder on it than I would have been if it was just some random new series."



but then ..retailers woudl have underordered it...and you would have never seen the product hit the shelve...it would go on the wall for $15 ...and you would have to wait 6 months for the must have or the tpb....

personally....i would like a chance at the book...it appears to be a small negative for a positive

[ctsmith83]

If a creator actually takes Internet criticism seriously, he'll go insane.

I think that Mr. Austen has taken the internet criticism he has received way, way too seriously. In the last two months we have been presented with several interviews where he goes on and on about the criticism he has faced (some of it insulting, some of it baseless, some of it dangerous and yet some of it valid). This latest interview is filled with the rantings and ravings of someone who needs to take a break or may be on the verge of a nervous breakdown. He needs to take a step back and re-evaluate his life and what he wants to accomplish within the medium.

He needs to learn how to tune out and ignore the bile that comes his way and not compound it by hurling bile back at fandom. He has, unfortunately, only added to his own problems by continuing with his counterattacks. His last interview ever? I certainly hope so, for his own peace of mind. May you be more positive in your life and career Mr. Austen, but please understand that when you produce something for mass consumption, some consumers will not like it.

[IanZL]

Originally posted by DrCool976
The Pulse is a far better forum than this one.

The moderators don't offer up as many disapproving wagging fingers after every negative post.
well yeah, but thats not really a problem when you only have like 8 people registered.

[DrCool976]

I don't see this place over-flowing with posts.

[mpg]

everyone is at the pulse!

[TemporalFlux]

Which brings us to my point about why this might not be such a good thing.

If a creator actually takes Internet criticism seriously, he'll go insane. He could be the greatest writer or artist in the world and there will be people that soundly thrash his efforts. If he tries to please them, he'll anger another group.

Some people get angry if you don't follow their advice or do what they think you should do. Message boards are loaded with vitriolic notes from people with opinions about everything.

The reason is: you can't please everybody.

A few months ago I wrote a column which including a number of absolute truths to prove the point that there is no longer any such thing. No matter how correct and obvious a statement, some people will disagree. I don't believe a single one of my incontrovertible statements (such as "Alan Moore is a great writer" or "Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the greatest Fantastic Four creators") survived unscathed.

I don't know what can be done about this; it's too late to get the genie back into the bottle.

When are you going to be done grinding your axes, Mike? You're a 50 something year old man...it's well past time to unpout the lip.

And to those who wonder about the true origin of this? Check back over Mike's Epic columns. We've already gotten a few helpings of this same sad lament there. In fact, one column is essentially nothing but a nearly insane rant on the subject (after Mike was presented with a few well founded comments he couldn't answer - so he lashed out instead...and is *still* lashing out I may add).

Kind of puts Mike's thoughts in perspective. He's asking everyone else to kill the fire...while he keeps spitefully striking matches and throwing them on the wood.

[HulkSmashNow]

The Internet has allowed many people, myself included, to voice concerns and ideas where we might not have been able to elsewhere. While I oft times disagree with many of you on any number of topics, at least I know that I have someone who listens and comprehends what I'm trying to say, and is interested in the same unifying topic that I am (in this case, comics).

People will be rude to one another, be it on an on-line message board or out on the street. That's sort of a defining characteristic of human beings, like it or not. However, we should all try to respect each others opinions, as well as each other. If you don't like what someone has to say, comment on it, in a mature fashion.

Now, it's easy for me to preach this sermon, and Lord knows I've been guilty of blowing my top, but if I can try to be better, then maybe others can to.

[Ed Cunard]

Does anyone have a link to the old column Mike mentions? I don't remember seeing that one:

A few months ago I wrote a column which including a number of absolute truths to prove the point that there is no longer any such thing. No matter how correct and obvious a statement, some people will disagree. I don't believe a single one of my incontrovertible statements (such as "Alan Moore is a great writer" or "Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the greatest Fantastic Four creators") survived unscathed.

[MattBrady]

Originally posted by DrCool976
The Pulse is a far better forum than this one.

The moderators don't offer up as many disapproving wagging fingers after every negative post.

thanks for the chuckle.

MattB

[mikesang]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pariah
[B]Mike, I respectfully disagree. Where would the fun be in posting messages if we all just said "Yeah, I agree". I think XFan reads like that too often and so I skip browsing their user posts.

Mike S. here:
I never said we should all be nice-nice. For gosh sakes, look at some of my archived reviews. My point is that this is such a weird time that there is no separation between fan and artist. It makes me wonder if there is not too much input, so much that the artist has no choice but to ignore it all or go crazy.
ANswer? I ain't got no answers.
<M

[adamania]

It may just by my media induced A.D.D., but I just don't have the time or patience to thumb through every title out there like I used to back in the day. I find this site, and it's ilk, to be a great way to get an idea about the direction and style of a title before I even hit up my local comic shop. I also find myself using the extra time that I used to spend thumbing seven X-titles and five Bat-books to search out more diverse titles like Herobear&The Kid. I probably buy more books now than I did before, and enjoy the experience more than I have since my teen years. Just my two cents worth.

[mikesang]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TemporalFlux


When are you going to be done grinding your axes, Mike? You're a 50 something year old man...it's well past time to unpout the lip.

And to those who wonder about the true origin of this? Check back over Mike's Epic columns.

Mike San Giacomo here:
This column has nothing to do with me and my work at all, that never occurred to me when writing this. The genesis of it was the downright nasty anti-Jemas posts and the general nature of the Internet.
M

[Buzzowl2]

Guess you weren't here when Waid got fired from the FF. It overflowed, all right. :-)

[classicist]

Originally posted by MikeD
SLIGHTLY OFF-TOPIC: Was Robinson's WildCATS/X-men series any good? Was it ever collected as a TPB?

There's a TPB of the three Wildcat's/X-Men crossovers; Robinson's chapter was OK; I personally enjoyed Warren Ellis' better. On the whole, the trade probably isn't worth the $20, but you can probably find the individual issues pretty cheap.

[OM]

...Lessee, Nixon goes to China and ends up having to resign anyway. Jemas goes to China and...

[saiyanspider]

Originally posted by Razak
They're called manhua, and if you want real manhua, I suggest finding old Jademan or Jade Dynasty back issues from the 80s, which was when the manhua industry was in it's best form... even in mainland China.

Given the state of the comic book industry there in HK and particularly in the mainland provinces, there's very little real success potential for Marvel to make in-roads. As with Japan, it would be more a niche market than anything else within the printed realm, though even much more so in China's case given the more insular nature and attitudes towards comics there.

And Comics One is already doing a good job of releasing english translated manhua here in the states and too many people ignorant of the differences are already quick enough to lump them into the broad category of manga.


I was trying to remember the same of HK comics, thanks.

I used to read jademan they were the friggin best!!! but art wise some of the stuff coming out is better, although no one has beaten jademan for the x-ray broken bone effect when someone got hit. that was cool as hell!!!

I'm fortunate enough to have a manhua comic shop in the china town by my house, they got Batman:Hong Kong a week before the HardCover came out, although it was only part one and in chinese but the art was worth it!! I gotta get the Hardcover

[CylverSaber]

The biggest problem on the Internet is not the people who are rude, but the people who use those people to characterize the Internet. By and large, the Internet is the best form of communication available today, and it has only helped generate interest in comics. So please Mike, and everyone else who makes the same complaints over and over, stop. You're adding to the negative tone more than those you criticize.

[mpg]

Originally posted by CylverSaber
The biggest problem on the Internet is not the people who are rude, but the people who use those people to characterize the Internet. By and large, the Internet is the best form of communication available today, and it has only helped generate interest in comics. So please Mike, and everyone else who makes the same complaints over and over, stop. You're adding to the negative tone more than those you criticize.

in my best imitation of the animated tick "RIGHT ON!"

you say what i feel

[QCCBob]

Originally posted by OM
...Lessee, Nixon goes to China and ends up having to resign anyway. Jemas goes to China and...
BWAH HA HA!!! I hope history repeats itself here!!!!!!!

[Eoghann]

Actually there's really only one problem with the internet and thats the fact that it allows people to express their opinions without actually taking the effort to forumlate them.

There's no editing process, no revisions, hell lets face it, how many of us even re-read what we've typed before hitting post?

Its not about whether the opinions are positive or negative. Its about whether they're even vaguely intelligent.

[rdcoyner]

Man, I haven’t gone on a rant in a while, and I never make it personal, but this string has gotten me a little worked up.

You know, I just think this whole thing is pathetic. I mean to say we should all just try to get along and then defend Bill Jemas's outright hostility to fans, competition and even the creators working for Marvel - Peter David or Mark Waid anyone - that's not only hypocritical but insulting coming from Mike San Giacomo. Even if Jemas is merely trying to build controversy and generate sales, it’s naïve on San Giacomo’s part to be upset at the fan community for the pot boiling over, when Jemas is the one stirring it.

Beyond that – while I don’t see the benefits of outright hostility – how many times has Spider-Girl received a continuance because of fan-reaction? Didn’t Quesada say they offered Waid the FF again (though he then turned it down) after the strong fan-reaction? It might not matter all of the time, but if a negative fan response didn’t matter at all, publishers wouldn’t pay attention, and some of these positives may never have happened.

Beyond that, I just love how people try to defend Marvel like it's still the House of Ideas – San Giacomo included – when what many online critics/apologists are really saying is - well it's selling, so who are you to judge?

The current idea at Marvel is just an extension of the boom mentality of the early 90s. Commerce before ideas. Look at what's popular elsewhere and figure out how to ape it. There are some exceptions but for the most part, if fluff sells, sell fluff. How many times have we heard in press releases about new titles - "If [so-and-so] did comics" or a "comic version of [insert movie title here]" in the last couple months, if not years.

Look at how formulaic it has all become as well. Between three act structure, origin up front, four-six issue story arcs, it's no longer a company meant to foster ideas – every story is written in the exact same way. As evidenced in the article on Newsarama from the other day about the rise of the X-Men, it never would have survived much less flourished under the current Marvel regime with its soap opera storytelling that spanned months if not years. And I'm not saying all stories should be told like that, but that if it works, and it results in one of the best-selling comics of all time – X-Men #1 – then by your own rationale let it. From Mike's own article on how Phantom Jack was retooled and another interview with Kyle Baker, you can tell Marvel's not about this freedom of expression anymore, but about editorial plotting and the writer simply scripting. And critics actually defend that. Hell, the one who posted this article has actually ingratiated himself into this system.

And fair or unfair, Chuck Austen does take the brunt of the fans’ anger for this. But, like Jemas, when you’re as vocal and reactionary as he is, he needs to expect some of it. And when he’s on as many top-tier titles as he is, he needs to expect it also. The one thing he is constantly accused of is being a hack. And when you’re on Uncanny, and the Avengers and Superman it just amplifies it.

In his article over on Comicon he justifies his writing by sales interest. Not by his belief in his own ideas. He basically says, several times, if the sales dropped off he'd change his style. Isn't that the definition of hackwork? But fans are supposed to be happy about a guy who has said he doesn’t care about the characters he is writing - like he said with Superman - writing the characters they have come to care about.

And his philosophy is what seems to be flourishing at Marvel. Look what happened to Steve Uy with Eden's Trail. They commissioned a story from him, then took it and had someone rewrite it according to house standards. Austen, in fact. Rules of the game some might say, but then how is that art? That's a widget. And strangely, now that Uy’s back on his own, he’s getting good reviews and is possibly on his way to having a cult hit at Image.

Austen gets upset that fans want him off of Uncanny "They actually want to take my livelihood," he said. Well, maybe some people are saying that, but I'm not. I’m saying I want the Steve Uys of the world to succeed. As a writer, it’s Austen’s job to write. It’s Bill Jemas’s job to worry about sales. Joe Casey got that and it didn’t work out for him on Uncanny. Too bad. But now he seems to be happy at DC and Wildstorm. Nobody took his livelihood. He did what he did best and the higher-ups didn’t feel like it worked, you can’t fault a guy for that. Morrison got that, and New X-Men is a success. Nobody’s asking for his livelihood either. Maybe if Austen just wrote, it wouldn’t be such a problem. But instead you have schlock catered to the lowest common denominator of shock value and irrational twists and turns that comes from the pen of a guy who is perceived to be reactionary at worst, a yes-man and a hack at worst. And he has become a focal point of anger at a certain type of system.

My point is, I think these companies do owe us. And Marvel in particular. It wasn’t our fault that they tried to squeeze distribution for higher profits, causing much of the direct market to crumble and forcing them into bankruptcy in the mid-90s. And it wasn’t our fault they decided that 21-part crossovers, foil-wrapped covers, baseball cards and holograms were a better way to go than telling good stories, which got collectors interested in the market in the first place. They screwed themselves, and fans.

Finally, I’d love to see Joe Quesada and Brian Michael Bendis’s reaction if Bill Jemas decided to toy with Daredevil the way he has threatened to do with Fantastic Four. Yet these people and Chuck Austen and so many others are the ones who laugh at fans for looking at these characters as something sacred, and caring about what happens to them. And besides, maybe I’m wrong, but isn’t the point of good storytelling creating characters people will care about?

So sometimes we bitch. And sometimes I think it’s justified.

[CylverSaber]

Originally posted by Eoghann
Actually there's really only one problem with the internet and thats the fact that it allows people to express their opinions without actually taking the effort to forumlate them.

There's no editing process, no revisions, hell lets face it, how many of us even re-read what we've typed before hitting post?

Its not about whether the opinions are positive or negative. Its about whether they're even vaguely intelligent.
Have you listened to the opinions expressed on TV, radio, or even in general public discourse? What you're describing is not an Internet-specific phenomenon.

[mpg]

Originally posted by CylverSaber
Have you listened to the opinions expressed on TV, radio, or even in general public discourse? What you're describing is not an Internet-specific phenomenon.

exactly....

this is supposed to be a conversation....words are used incorrectly..misspelled....conversations are not going to meet the editing standards for a sci-fi magazine

you are your own editor in a conversation.....and i think many posters have re-read their posts..and took out stuff....or re-written things...or said to hell with it..and not posted at all...

[Eoghann]

Originally posted by CylverSaber
Have you listened to the opinions expressed on TV, radio, or even in general public discourse? What you're describing is not an Internet-specific phenomenon.

And none of it is intelligent either. No its not internet only, but there are no other mediums in which such a diverse group of people are able to offer their opinions. While TV often features less than stellar opinion pieces, they are still light years better than the average contribution in threads like this.

As far as public discourse is concerned, the only people I've ever heard have conversations this rude are people that I've always regarded as idiots. I expect idiots to have stupid conversations. I also expect those with some level of intelligence or education to actually apply it.

I'm old fashioned that way.

More seriously, opinions are presented on here and in other forums as though those opinions should be taken seriously. Well to be blunt. If a person wants an opinion to be taken seriously, then the very least they have to do is take the time and effort to show they should be taken seriously.

[CylverSaber]

Originally posted by Eoghann
No its not internet only, but there are no other mediums in which such a diverse group of people are able to offer their opinions.
And here we come to the heart of the matter.

Some people prefer media that are centrally controlled, where everything is carefully cleaned and censored so that they will only be exposed to that which will not offend them.

Some of us would rather take the chance of reading offensive posts, in exchange for the freedom and equality of voice that the Internet provides.

In short, it's whether you think your above description of the Internet is praise or condemnation.

[Eoghann]

On the contrary, once again we have someone who completely misses the point.

The point is about how opinions are expressed, not what opinions are expressed.

Is that really so hard to grasp?

[ramberk]

Originally posted by shakey
I'm not sure why that's a bad thing Mike. Yes some will slam a future project just by hearing the writer or artist's name, but I think it's just advanced marketing of an eventual product.

Your X-men -Wildcats is one case. Are fans going to be in the wrong during next year's convention season for asking for the status of the next League Of Extrordinary Gentleman story?
We know Moore is stepping away from mainstream comics, but we get assurances that he and O'Neil have a next chapter in mind.

What about books like DC's aborted revival of THUNDER AGENTS , or the Princess Di X-STATIC storyline? Here's two cases where the publishers use the Net to get buzz about a book, then for various reasons the projects get cancelled. Things happen, but what's wrong with releasing a statement on why a project didn't work out? Fans don't need to know every boardroom detail, but if it's worthy of advanced publkicity, isn't it fair to ask what happened ?

Talk like that is good. It means pootential buyers are interested in a company's products.

Is it true that no one can keep a secret because of the internet? I don't think that's true. I think with proper precautions you can stop most leaks or at least stop them until it's almost time to make an announcement.

Publishers just need to know how to control information leaks and how to best use the 'net for good hype and PR. I for one, don't announce anything unless I know full well that I can do it and will do it. Doing otherwise makes you look foolish.

Case in point- never announce a super hype project if you know the creative team has a poor on-time track record. Do it after there are a couple of issues already in the can- or at least one.

[Rand]

Originally posted by Razak
They're called manhua, and if you want real manhua, I suggest finding old Jademan or Jade Dynasty back issues from the 80s, which was when the manhua industry was in it's best form... even in mainland China.

Given the state of the comic book industry there in HK and particularly in the mainland provinces, there's very little real success potential for Marvel to make in-roads. As with Japan, it would be more a niche market than anything else within the printed realm, though even much more so in China's case given the more insular nature and attitudes towards comics there.

... unfortunately, that's true. It's incredibly hard to find a store that sells American comics here in Hong Kong... I think there are less than 5 shops, total.

On the other hand, have to give Bill props for trying... even though I -think- Mark (Alessi) was there first.

Originally posted by Razak
And Comics One is already doing a good job of releasing english translated manhua here in the states and too many people ignorant of the differences are already quick enough to lump them into the broad category of manga.

I disagree. I'm an avid fan of Chinese martial arts novels/fantasy... called wuxia or wushu... but ComicsOne does a -horrible- job of translation. It's correct English, but doesn't flow as a story. An example of this? Try Storm Riders. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

[ramberk]

Originally posted by QCCBob
Huh, I though you were from Berkeley, CA...didn't know there was a Berkeley in Communist China...:p You have no self-control, prepare to die!;)

Matt and company do a pretty good job of moderating and, when things get out of hand, they pretty much nail it. The definition of 'out of hand' seems to be the issue. Being negative, i.e. not liking something or disagreeing with someone is NOT always out of control here. Some posters like vigorous debate. Those of you who want to be in 'yes men' heaven can always go to whatever X-fan is called now and be secure in the knowledge that only pros are allowed to be insulting there.:p :D

Berkeley is a communist state-- or so say the t-shirts that they sell on Telegraph.

You say Matt and company do a good job of moderating. I disagree. I've never seen a post get deleted or have heard of an account being deactivated. I don't see any kind of moderation.

You say that the issue of 'out of hand' seems to be the issue. Well, a lot of people who have replied to this article feel that things have gotten out of hand. This article is about asking people to be nicer and more polite.

About your last comment Bob, about those who are "yes men" ought to go to X-Fan. Are you implying that people who want some sort of moderation on this board are just 'yes men'. I get the feeling that that is what you are implying. An end to the flame wars in this board (through moderation) does not mean the board will be filled with 'yes men.' That's a gross simplification of what moderation can do.

Message boards can exist without flame wars and with lively discussion. A message board flame is a message that is often times is false and is always meant to incite anger in other members of the message board. A lot of comments on this board are just plain flames.

Lastly, a message can be negative but it shouldn't be hateful. For goodness sake, people are HATEFUL about a lot of things on these boards. That sort of negativity doesn't belong here. This is a community, treat it as such. Disliking a certain creator's writing style/art style/editorial style etc. is fine but does the message have to be hateful.

I don't think people like hate all that much. And I for one think that Matt and company should go after people who write flames and hateful comments.

[Sean Walsh]

Originally posted by MikeD
SLIGHTLY OFF-TOPIC: Was Robinson's WildCATS/X-men series any good? Was it ever collected as a TPB?

I think it was, yes. TPB might be outta print now, though.

I've never read it but it seems vaguely interesting...

Sean
:)

[QCCBob]

Originally posted by ramberk
You say Matt and company do a good job of moderating. I disagree. I've never seen a post get deleted or have heard of an account being deactivated. I don't see any kind of moderation.

I've been here a long time, back in the comicon.com days. They have deleted plenty, but they usually don't publicize negative stuff. It just takes a lot to force the issue to that point. Trust me, I've been cursed at and so on, but those guys tend to just disappear.

As to my sarcastic X-Fan shot, it was aimed at the fact that posters are policed at one level and pros are treated differently. It applies at Pulse as well. Despite that pesky Marvel bias :p, Mr. Brady and company let people pretty much say what they want within reason. Clearly your tolerance level is less than theirs.

Trolls make themselves clear and they are a necessary evil. They can even be funny at times. You just can't take it too seriously. When someone posts just to call you an ass with no explanation or reasoning, you just take it for the idiocy it is and move on. Or, of course, you can rattle their cage a little. It's just words on a screen. T'ain't no big thing. One of our local talk radio guys has a phrase 'disagreeing without being disagreeable' and it's a fine concept. Sadly, we're all here because we are comic fans and fan is short for fanatic. Sometimes those roots show.

[adamania]

I know this is off topic, but I really miss Zealot. She was like Wonder Woman crossed with Snake Eyes, all nasty and tough, yet regal and beautiful.

[Buzzowl2]

To RDCOYNER:

You, I like. Well put. Bravo!

[Barry]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this article? You open with information about a visit to China, a country known for it's oppression of freedom and free speech. And then we, the reader, are told to not excersice ours.

Huh.

[OMAR]

I give both Newsarama and The Pulse credit, I didn't think there was room for them both at first but now I find I need to read them both. Newsarama pieces are much, much, better written and I trust their honesty more, but The Pulse is more freewheeling and allows more freedom of expression. The humor that characterized the "old" Newsarama from the mania.com days seems to have left with Michael Doran. You could say the soul is gone, the feelings just not there, not like it was so long ago. So I find myself joining in on Pulse discussions more often these days.

[Razak]

Originally posted by Rand
... unfortunately, that's true. It's incredibly hard to find a store that sells American comics here in Hong Kong... I think there are less than 5 shops, total.

On the other hand, have to give Bill props for trying... even though I -think- Mark (Alessi) was there first. Five shops is more than I would have thought.

As for Alessi, whoa, really? I didn't know that, but you know now that I think about it, it wouldn't surprise me in the least, if it's true. Kudos to him for trying, too. I'd think he might at least have a small chance at making better inroads there because I can see him offering better incentives then Jemas.
Originally posted by Rand
I disagree. I'm an avid fan of Chinese martial arts novels/fantasy... called wuxia or wushu... but ComicsOne does a -horrible- job of translation. It's correct English, but doesn't flow as a story. An example of this? Try Storm Riders. Horrible, horrible, horrible. I'm familiar with wuxia too. And I agree with you on the translations on the stuff Comics One has been releasing. What I meant was that they were doing a good job of releasing a fair amount of manhua here, particularly when you look at the amount that had been released here prior to that but after Jade Dynasty folded back in the late 80s, early 90s. I think Image gave it a shot a few years ago with a few titles from Khoo Fuk Lung and Tony Wong, but not many people bought into them and the few who did mostly thought it was just more manga.

Guess I should have been clearer in that. ;)

[MichaelCoughlin]

<cracks knuckles>

I've actually got a very unique percpetive on all this. For the past year or so, I've been associated with wrestlingobserver.com (cheap plug) Now, anyone who follows prowrestling knows that this is kind of THE site out there. For 9 months, until I quit because of burn out, I reviewed WWE TV 3 nights a week. At first I sucked, but I like to think I got to be a pretty good lil reviewer. Now then, I took this job VERY seriously, and because the producted sucked HARD at times, I often times had to do everything I could to make my reviews/recaps entertaining. So on the one hand I was a critic, the kind most despised I imagine. But I used my real name and all that, as I do here, so it wasn't like I was hiding or anything.

In addition to being a reviewer, I also would write columns from time to time on pro wrestling and mixed martial arts (the UFC for those going "huh"). At times I'd have people who disagreed with me PASSIONATLY.

But most of the criticism I got came because of my reviews. The vast majority of mail I got said they loved what I was doing, that I made crappy TV worth watching. But there were some people who were quite possibly psychotic. I had people finding my personal email address, digging up pictures of me from my old high school year book (i have NO idea how they did that, and it scared the crap outta me) and constantly stalking me.

My advice for creators who run into problems like this is the following:

STRONGLY concentrate on the positive mail you get and just flat out ignore the morons. When people write you with constructive criticism, read what they have to say and figure out if they have a point or not. But NEVER EVER EVER let it drag you down. I liked to keep a folder of really nice emails I'd get, and from time to time I'd reference them and say, "I must be doing SOMETHING right."

The thing I found most is that those who would write with irrational comments, or just plain rude things to say, most often were just jealous. I had the comic book equivalent of writing Batman (kinda) and I know that some people just went NUTS with envy.

And to people who like to rip on creators, and I don't mean this in a snotty way, but just try to do what they do. Like everyone here I'm sure, i've been trying to figure out my own "Epic" pitch and not surprisingly, it's tough as hell. Suddenly my "brilliant" idea isn't nearly as great as I thought it was.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't rail against Chuck Austen if you don't like his work, I know I'm not a huge fan of everything he does, but it does mean that you might want to just take one minute and just think about what you're saying.

But short of death threats or really just horribly offensive statements, I don't think Matt should be editing anyone.

-Mike-

ps, give Brady a break. This guy probably works his ass off here and doesn't need people giving him crap because someone they disagree with is allowed to post.

[Kevin Street]

Originally posted by pifpog
I'm all for encouraging people to be more thoughtful in their postings to others. There is entirely too much of a school yard one-ups-man-ship on these boards. I've never been sure if this situation is due to is the power that comes from having your voice heard in a wider forum of your peers, the strength that comes from having your identity be unknown, or some other cause. But we are all here for the same reasons and no one here is my enemy.

That being said, I'm dead set against the sanitizing of the internet. Clearly there is an increasing call for it... Austen's interview and Quesada's accusation that the internet was killing the industry are the most recent examples. But I think this is just the self-serving interests of people who are trying to control all of the spin on their product.

We live in a world where our news is being increasingly watered down. With seven or eight companies controlling the majority of what we watch or read, those in the media are particularly concerned over whose toes they step on. How many stories of corporate corruption have been surpressed because they advertised heavily on the network? Or because the editors of the paper were chosen for their political leanings?

In many ways, the internet is the last bastion of the free exchange of ideas and opinions. Sure, a lot of people, to paraphrase Steve Martin, criticize things they don't know about. But every now and then you get this new outlook, this new perspective that makes things click into place....

Amen, brother. I agree with what you said there one hundred percent.

Except that imo (IMO is a wonderful acronym that people should use more often), the Internet isn't the last bastion of free thought - it's a new bastion, something that most people have only been using for five years or less and haven't gotten used to yet. Nobody knows where all this will end, but I love the uncontrolled, freewheeling aspect of the net, and look forward to the changes it will bring when it's more fully integrated into society.

The net isn't destroying the comic book industry, but it is transforming it in ways both good and bad. On the negative side, the continuous standing wave of gossip and innuendo that roars through comic book web sites and message boards can hurt careers and damage relationships, but I think that, with time, comic book professionals will adapt to their new position under the magnifying glass, and even use it to their advantage in constructive ways. (After all, it is pretty flattering to have so many people interested in your work.) Ninety nine percent of the "criticism" out there is crap, but there are a few places on the Net, here and there, that actually provide constructive criticism and are worth listening to. In the past, bad comics could stay bad for years and years, with the same passionless hackwork sqeezed out for each new generation of readers, but in today's shrunken direct marketplace, with its backbone of net-connected retailers, comic books rise and fall much more quickly - and imo, the best books triumph in the end. The process is still going through birth pangs and has a lot of kinks, but overall, I think the feedback generated by the net helps retailers make better decisions and gives readers better comics. Or at least, we get interesting comics. No more twenty year runs on boring titles, produced to keep trademarks alive.

And the net has another use as an early warning system for creators. Freelancers can often find out about troubled companies and stay away from them before losing their shirts. This sort of thing will probably become more important in the future.

[CylverSaber]

Originally posted by Eoghann
On the contrary, once again we have someone who completely misses the point.

The point is about how opinions are expressed, not what opinions are expressed.

Is that really so hard to grasp?
No, not hard to grasp at all. Like whether you choose to express your opinion in a condescending manner or not.

The difference between you and me is, you piss and moan about being exposed to rude people (of which you are one) while I accept that as a welcome cost of the freedom the Internet provides.

[jsnsbags]

Yep, 30 helens agree. This nasty opinion thing or trashing things w/out backing up with fact must stop. We have to stop all this hating man! :D

[saiyanspider]

Originally posted by Razak
Five shops is more than I would have thought.

As for Alessi, whoa, really? I didn't know that, but you know now that I think about it, it wouldn't surprise me in the least, if it's true. Kudos to him for trying, too. I'd think he might at least have a small chance at making better inroads there because I can see him offering better incentives then Jemas.
I'm familiar with wuxia too. And I agree with you on the translations on the stuff Comics One has been releasing. What I meant was that they were doing a good job of releasing a fair amount of manhua here, particularly when you look at the amount that had been released here prior to that but after Jade Dynasty folded back in the late 80s, early 90s. I think Image gave it a shot a few years ago with a few titles from Khoo Fuk Lung and Tony Wong, but not many people bought into them and the few who did mostly thought it was just more manga.

Guess I should have been clearer in that. ;)


I HATE the fact that people just lump this in with manga, there really isn't any similarity. I'm confused what is the actual name, is it manhua, or wuxia , or both? if your city has a china town, then you might be able to find a store that sells them. There are 2 in my neighborhood, one by my house, and one two blocks away (I live in china town nyc). the one by my house, the owner says he has a website I'll grab it today and post it for you tonight or tomorrow. they get new comics every monday/tuesday.

[Mr.Clean]

Here's my take on what I see to be the two main topics.

1. I live in the Philippines, which has a relatively small comic culture. I can't afford to buy Wizard magazine every month to the internet is my salvation when it comes to information on comics, with newsarama being on of the sites I frequent. Hell, I wouldn't have known about 1602 if it wasn't for newsarama, so I for one am glad that I can get news as fast as possible.

2. As to the "negative" posting. Everyone's got an opinion. 99% want to share this opinion. 5% of those people make juvenile posts that lack any true criticism except to say "you suck". 1% of those people will keep shoving their opinions down your throat until you either believe it or want to shut them up with duct tape. I the latter are the kind of people that you don't want to see posting in a forum. I mean, I don't like em, but that's just me.

[mpg]

this all makes me feel tired...

[OM]

Originally posted by Eoghann
The point is about how opinions are expressed, not what opinions are expressed.

...And yet, the majority of those bitching about <i>how</i> opinions are expressed are in actuality bitching about <I>what</i> is being expressed, and hiding the latter behind the former. Especially when they really don't have a valid arguement against the opinions they disagree with, much less a clue.

[Razak]

Manhua are simply chinese comics, that's all.

Wuxia is the chinese literary genre dating back hundreds of years that basically focuses on the noble "martial arts super hero". The most common translation of "wuxia" would be something along the lines of "martial chivalry", with "wu" being defined as having to do with war/martial arts and "xia" having to do with chivalry/knighthood/heroic nobility.

In cinematic terms, the wuxia genre typically is most known for encompassing the 'swords and sorcery' period pieces, with characters that fly through the air and possess other mystical powers. Before the advent of television these types of characters and settings had existed in chinese literature for centuries, and it is the wuxia literary genre that helped define and give rise to the most common mystical and super heroic elements you see in manga and anime today. Training and developing Ki abilities, flying, running on water, super speed, etc. Anything from DBZ to Naruto can claim its roots in wuxia.

In that respect, manga and manhua actually are quite similar, stylistic variances aside. But while manga continues to gain acceptance in the West I do not see manhua achieving the same ends, nor do I see Western comics ever gaining any true foothold in most of East Asia.

[saiyanspider]

Originally posted by Razak
Manhua are simply chinese comics, that's all.

Wuxia is the chinese literary genre dating back hundreds of years that basically focuses on the noble "martial arts super hero". The most common translation of "wuxia" would be something along the lines of "martial chivalry", with "wu" being defined as having to do with war/martial arts and "xia" having to do with chivalry/knighthood/heroic nobility.

In cinematic terms, the wuxia genre typically is most known for encompassing the 'swords and sorcery' period pieces, with characters that fly through the air and possess other mystical powers. Before the advent of television these types of characters and settings had existed in chinese literature for centuries, and it is the wuxia literary genre that helped define and give rise to the most common mystical and super heroic elements you see in manga and anime today. Training and developing Ki abilities, flying, running on water, super speed, etc. Anything from DBZ to Naruto can claim its roots in wuxia.

In that respect, manga and manhua actually are quite similar, stylistic variances aside. But while manga continues to gain acceptance in the West I do not see manhua achieving the same ends, nor do I see Western comics ever gaining any true foothold in most of East Asia.

Thanks for info man! :)

I agree, since the people who hate manga will go "stupid manga" just lumping anything asian into one category.

and the average person, just lumps all things asian as the same thing. I had a friend who is puerto rican would call koreans japanese he would call all of them chinese. When I would correct him, he would just say "same thing". So I would call him dominican, and he would get all upset and be like "I'm puerto rican man ah aint no dominican!", and I would reply "isn't it the same thing?"

[pifpog]

Originally posted by rdcoyner
And fair or unfair, Chuck Austen does take the brunt of the fans’ anger for this. But, like Jemas, when you’re as vocal and reactionary as he is, he needs to expect some of it.
And here is what it is all about. Internet = good when it promotes a book like War Machine that gets you noticed; Internet = bad when people notice you are just shoving out the same stuff from the same big vat in the back room. Squish, Superman, Squish, X-Men this, Squish, X-men that (apologies to Steve Martin).
In his article over on Comicon he justifies his writing by sales interest. Not by his belief in his own ideas. He basically says, several times, if the sales dropped off he'd change his style.
Doesn't this seriously challenge the notion that the internet has ANY serious impact on sales? I think we can all agree that no one outside of Zimmerman takes more guff than Austen, yet his books continue to sell. Wait, you say, the books he is on are unsinkable... they sell well no matter who writes them. If that is the case, then his "justification through sales" argument falls down. Can't have it both ways.
Austen gets upset that fans want him off of Uncanny "They actually want to take my livelihood," he said.

This argument is the last bastion of the shameless. Under this line of reasoning, Austen is robbing two people of their livelihood as surely he could live on the income from one of the most popular books on the market rather than writing three.

But even more importantly, it misses the fact that the arts, like sports, is based on a "may the best person win" function. We'd laugh if Michael Jordon criticized the NBA for having too many fast young guys. Or if museums were filled with second-rate artists just to give them a chance.

In a short time he's gone from struggling artist to author of a couple big time books. Let's cry no tears for the poor little rich boy.

[mikesang]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rdcoyner
[B]Man, I haven’t gone on a rant in a while, and I never make it personal, but this string has gotten me a little worked up.
MIke San Giacomo here:
Good post, very thought-provoking.
I'm the first to admit that this whole column was a slippery slope. There is a lot good and bad about the Internet. There is a lot good and bad about Marvel. I've been able to see a lot by shoving my sneaker in the door. I agree that I'm troubled by a tendency on some editors part at Marvel to try to break stories down into a formula - a Hollywood movie formula. It's a very bad idea, it's also lazy.
I'm not defending that at all, nor will I.
IN my own personal case Phantom Jack was more of a collaborative effort. I'm new at this comic writing, so I had no problem with some of it. My ideas won out on many occasions, I lost on others (and still disagree on) but ultimately the book turned out very well and I'm proud of it. It is far superior to the first draft I submitted.

Also, I'm not saying that folks should not exprtess themselves. By all means, write as much as you want, I find it interesting and sometimes valuable.
And I'm not saying to be all nice, that's crazy.
So what am I saying?
Don't go crazy. This post was thoughtful and intelligent and rd did not accuse anyone of eating babies. This is the kind of fan/pro interaction that gets noticed and saves comics like Spider-Girl.
So be critical, but be sincere. Some people like to bitch just to get a rise out of folks, not that it ever works with me. Ahem.
That's about it.
M

[mpg]

yep.....

i am the rodney king of comics...