MY EPIC JOURNEY 12: THE EDITING QUESTION

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Epic2.jpg" width="200" height="304" border="0" hspace="2" align="right"><I>by Mike San Giacomo

This is a weekly look at the process of writing a comic for Marvel’s new Epic line, <b>Phantom Jack</b>, which was to be called <b>Nowhere Man</b> until THE MAN made me change the name.

My story and script about Jack Baxter, a newspaper reporter who can turn invisible, was greenlighted by the powers that be at Marvel.</I>

Recently, April 15 in real time, I was on the receiving end of a press conference where Marvel announced details of the Epic Comics project, which would allow anyone to pitch a script. John Jackson Miller (<b>Crimson Dynamo</b>) and I were the first two critics whose scripts were accepted. After the press conference I returned to the computer to rewrite the first issue, trying to incorporate conflicting instructions from various folks at Marvel about when the reader should learn of Jack’s powers.

The one thing have learned through this whole Epic writing process is the fluidity of a story. Readers who’ve chatted on this page seem to think there are two ways to write a story, my way and your way, setting up the classic writer/editor conflict.

The truth, as usual, lies in the middle.

Assuming all parties to be competent, thoughtful people, the writing process often ends up with a whole bunch of story ideas, Most of them are good. There is no one perfect way to write a story. The new ideas suggested by editors are usually perfectly fine, so it comes down to deciding what you (the writer) wants the story to say.

It’s rarely as simple as “one version stinks.”

When this whole editing process works correctly, it should lead to a discussion of alternatives about what would and would not work. Joe Quesada, Marvel’s editor-in-chief and not a bad writer/artist in his own right, was fascinated with the visual effects that could arise if Jack’s clothes did not disappear when his body did. When I explained that it’s important that Jack’s field of invisibility extend out from his body for later, important parts of the story, Joe was fine with it.

He didn’t sulk or pull the boss card.

After a series of phone calls with Assistant Editor Stephanie Moore, we worked out some details about the first issue. There were some other small concepts that played well with the story, some obvious areas to nip and tuck. The project was shaping up.

Now, if I can play Dutch uncle here and offer some advice to the aspiring and perspiring writers out there it would be to lighten up.

While it’s fine to think that your idea is the greatest story since Stan and Jack fab foursome, you have to accept that it will likely be tinkered with. By all means you should hold on to your concepts, but don’t stonewall yourself out of the running.

I read a lot of unjustified egos in the messages. When your name is Bendis or Austen or Claremont you can make demands that your work be untouched, otherwise, shut up and remember that this is your first effort. Take the help and criticism where you get it.

Anyway, back to Nowher...Phantom Jack.

The last rewrite went over well. A long period of time passed where I was very busy reporting real news at <I>The Plain Dealer</I> and, because of the announcement that Marvel would consider scripts from anyone willing to go through the effort, that Marvel was super busy as well. I polished up the script to the second issue and firmed up the story summaries for the rest of the series. Before I knew it, I got a call from Marvel’s Mike Doran asking if would be participate in an Epic panel discussion at WizardWorld East comicon in Philadelphia at the end of May.

I’ve done more than a few panels over the years at various cons, but I was always the comic journalist. This would be about my own work.

Cool.

Next week: Philly.

<center><a href="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/PhantomJack-logo.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/PhantomJack-logo_t.jpg" width="500" height="157" border="0" hspace="2"></a></center>

<I>Mike Sangiacomo, a freelance writer for Newsarama and other sources, was invited to share his experiences with pitching to Epic by Newsarama's editor, Matt Brady, in the interest of keeping readers well informed. Brady advises Newsarama readers that he is aware of the inherent conflict of interest presented by journalists working for a publisher they cover. Sangiacomo's regular column Journey Into Comics has and will continue to be found in the Opinion/Editorial section of Newsarama. Brady has not, nor does he plan to pitch to Epic himself. </I>

[Rich Johnston]

Not if you're Claremont.

[L'Zoril]

Has anyone realised that though this column is supposed to be a helping guide for everyone out there who wants to get their comic under Epic, there has been no announcement of another Epic comic book except for Phantom Jack and Crimsom Dynamo?

I mean, does anyone even know anyone whose proposal has been accepted? Wasn't is supposed that all good comics would have a chance at least? I can't believe that from all the entries Marvel has received, only 2 have been accepted. What does everyone think about this?

[Chesscub]

Originally posted by L'Zoril
Has anyone realised that though this column is supposed to be a helping guide for everyone out there who wants to get their comic under Epic, there has been no announcement of another Epic comic book except for Phantom Jack and Crimsom Dynamo?



Just to point out, there are two other Epic titles coming. Gun Theory and Desperate Times!

I loved Desperate Times! when it came out by Image and Aaaaargh Comics. So I'll most likely get it when it comes out from Epic.

Jeff

[L'Zoril]

Originally posted by Chesscub
Just to point out, there are two other Epic titles coming. Gun Theory and Desperate Times!

I loved Desperate Times! when it came out by Image and Aaaaargh Comics. So I'll most likely get it when it comes out from Epic.

Jeff

Damn, totally forgot about Gun Theory. And I didn't know there was a 4th. thanx

[Chesscub]

I just want to say that I really appreciate the perspective that Mike San Giacomo provides on the whole writing process. I think most of us fans have one or two stories in us that we'd like to see on paper, but this provides a perspective on what writers have to go through.

Writing IS work. It's easy to post to a message board and ramble on and on and on about a subject without regards to proper sentence structure or even spelling (kewl, leet, and all those hip, groovy phrases). It's another thing to write a cohesive story.

Jeff
"It's like a Bing Crosby/Bob Hope road movie with a lizard and an alpaca."-Jeff's failed Epic proposal :D

[Alex Segura Jr.]

Originally posted by L'Zoril
Damn, totally forgot about Gun Theory. And I didn't know there was a 4th. thanx

There's also Ancient One as well, about Dr. Strange's mentor. Written by CBR's Rob Worley.

Alex

[Shroud Shadow]

Mr. San Giacomo makes some very valid points about the editorial process -- especially about the need for fledgling writers to acknowledge and accept editorial imput.

I fully admit that I haven't been an avid reader of Mr. San Giacomo's articles and the subsequent posts, but I do think that there may be a component to the skepticism that many fans have towards Marvel's editorial processes, myself included, that Mike may not be discerning. I'd like to add my own two cents as to what, and why, I think that is.

Editors, like writers, have their own style. The great editors are those who know how to hire good people, people that the editor can trust in matters of judgment, and people who understand that the editor's job, when dealing with writers, is not to ghost-write through the writer or force his own perspective onto the story, but merely to note failings in story structure, offer objective observations, and, for the most part, try to get out of the way when things are fine.

(To quote an aside written by Peter David regarding this topic (which he wrote back in 1992, so I don't think his comments here involve grinding personal axes): "For what it's worth, I think a truly professional comics editor is one who is assigned a title and has no other agenda than to make sure good stories are being told. Sitting down with a writer and saying, "This story doesn't work for this and this reason, relating to dramatic structure," is absolutely proper. To sit down with a writer and say, "You're doing Story Type X, but I don't want to see that, I want to see Story Type Y, so adios," shows a lack of being able to delegate creative authority. It boils down to, "I want to see this book done the way I would do it if I were writing it." That does no service to anyone except an editor who wants to feel totally in charge.")

This can be hard for a lot of editors. Many people have heard the old chestnut about the reporter turning in the perfect story to the editor. The editor immediately starts in with his red pen, circling items, writing in new notes, before he stops, actually reads the story, and submits it to the printers as is.

Marvel is no exception. Two writers who have created, for many, the defining runs for their respective titles, Chris Claremont and Peter David, were forced (to greater or lesser degrees) off those books due to editorial pressure over story direction. Joe Kelly and Steve Seagle referred to the significant editorial rewrites of their work as the reason why they left X-Men. The end of their respective tenures, according to Kelly, was marked with editors coming to them with the stories that they were to execute in the books. Mark Waid (who, admittedly, has a checkered history dealing with others) left Captain America after a pivotal Red Skull story was painstaking crafted, editorially accepted, and then rewritten without his knowledge or input.

(This, of course, is beyond other editorial impositions, like crossover and big-event storylines, which can be a bother, but seems to be observed in the industry as a necessary evil.)

Joe Quesada has said that, when he first took the reins of power as editor-in-chief, he first regarded such stories merely as the ventings of frustrated writers, but then found that the events above were not being exaggerated. That, according to Quesada, was one of the reasons why he started hiring editors with a better grasp of the editorial process. And, for the first few years of his tenure, it would be hard to argue with the results.

However (and this is one part of my discussion that falls into personal opinion, so "grain of salt" and all that), the increasing involvement and credit-taking antics of Bill Jemas, Marvel's president, with the creative day-to-day operations is reversing Quesada's editorial implementations, and bringing Marvel back to the early 1990's again.

Mr. Jemas, to me, is the equivalent of Larry Miller's character, Lou, from the second season of Mad About You. To those needing an introduction, Lou was an accountant assigned as producer over documentary director Paul Buchman. Lou, while admittedly filled with enthusiasm, had no experience, practical or otherwise, even less taste, and little appreciation for the judgment and expertise of those who had respect enough for the medium to learn the tricks of the trade. That, of course, didn't stop him from trying to handle every single aspect of Paul's films.

(If you want another great story about people like that, I'd suggest picking up the Evening with Kevin Smith DVD. The story Kevin recounts about dealing with Jon Peters during the Superman Lives screenwriting process is priceless, worth the purchase of the DVD itself.)

To be fair, Mr. Jemas does seem to have some business acumen that has assisted Marvel thus far. Of course, as a president, that's what would be expected from his position. As well, the introduction of the Ultimate universe has provided an interesting shot in the arm to the industry. (But I tend to extend far more credit to the men who executed the idea, Mr. Bendis and Mr. Millar).

But the impression that Mr. Jemas seems to be giving off now is one similar to the great-and-powerful Oz -- radiant displays of power with little substance. The involvement that Mr. Jemas has had in other creative respects is hardly as impressive.

Origin, while having its fans and hardly being a financial failure, was nowhere near the far-sweeping epic that Mr. Jemas advertised (before and after its production).
The strengthening of the trade paperback format has resulted in editorial changes to the monthly comics, where authors are expected to write in arcs. While this is not bad in and of itself, the emphasis on this writing style has loaded Marvel with writers who have no concept of keeping the month-to-month adventures engaging in and of themselves. (To see it done right, pick up The Uncanny X-Men #129 - 137. These books, reprinted as The Dark Phoenix Saga, are among the most powerful comic epics ever, and yet each individual issue is a great read by itself -- with only 17 pages a month, at that.) Today, I often find that I have to wait a few months until a particular arc ends before I can read it; otherwise I end up reading story chapters that are either too convoluted or too boring on their own, and are unmemorable when I pick up the following month's installment. And if that's the case, why bother buying the monthly comic?
Marville has been a creative and commercial bomb. (And, of course, the concept of printing the Welcome to Epic Comics guide, not as a one-shot, but as Marville #7, shows a certain measure of conceit.)


The topic has reared its head again with the recent dismissal of Mark Waid from Fantastic Four. While there seems to be some ongoing ambiguity as to the particulars of this event, the general consensus is that higher-ups in Marvel have decided that the Fantastic Four needed a different direction that would be more harmonious to the upcoming film. Mark was unable/unwilling/perceived to be unable to provide that, so he had to go.

This, of course, is not one, but many slaps in the face. First, it's a slap in the face to Waid, because it's says to him that his personal input to the series is not appreciated. The "We want Story Type Y" mentality is making an ugly comeback.

Second, it's a slap in the fact to the fans, because it tells us that the fact that the book is more commercially and critically viable means nothing to Marvel. It doesn't matter that it's not broke. It doesn't matter that the fans love Waid's take and are supporting the book. The movie fan base is more important than the comic fan base, even though it's been the comic fan base interest in these titles for the past forty years that have made them viable as theatrical releases. (And let's face it, the movies have done very little for comics and probably won't.)

Third, it's a slap in the face to all creators, because, again, they are being told that comics should be seen as movie offshoots, not the other way around, and that comics should not be expected to have its own voice, because that voice is just not good enough. We have to stop adapting books so that they read as nice little cinematic sound bytes that preach to the converted, and instead introduce to the general public about why comics are just so great.

(Again, this is merely an impression, but whenever I watch Avi Arad in an interview, I always feel that he talks about the characters as if they were commodities rather than creations. He seems to have more pride in Marvel as a corporation than as a cultural icon. I hope I'm wrong, but I think that attitude is working its way in-house.)

It makes one long for the resurrection of Mark Gruenwald. All accounts I've read suggest he was a fantastic gentleman and editor. But, as a great lesson to editors everywhere, when he had the urge to write, he just wrote -- in a book different than the one he was editing.

As an aside to Mr. Jemas, I urge him to look at the example of Jim Shooter. Apparently, he was less liked than Jemas inside Marvel, and, from what I've read, for good reason. But one can't deny that he loved comics in and of themselves, and that he understood the dynamics of the comic book medium. Every story change that I've read of that was due to Shooter's editorial influence made for a stronger story. Mr. Jemas has not proven that he has that understanding, that respect (why else greenlight the blatantly disdainful Hulk Encyclopedia), that talent, or even that job. If Joe Quesada is a bad editor-in-chief, he should be fired. If he's not, he should be recognized as being the editor-in-chief and left alone to do his work.

Marvel Comics in the 1980's were, for the most part, good. In the 1990's, they were -- well, they sucked. And the success and failure of Marvel comes down to getting people who do their own jobs well and who don't do other people's jobs, poorly or otherwise.

Again, bringing this around full circle, this does not mean in the least that Mr. San Giacomo has or will have any of the problems with editors that I've related. He seems, thus far, to have a good relationship with his editors, and he may have an agreeable and continuing relationship with Marvel that helps him to grow as a creator. Editors, when they do their jobs right, stop writers from pumping out banal and predictable storylines, and help the creator to reach new heights of vision and expression. If potential Epic creators want to avoid becoming another "Lou," they have to be willing to accept it if an editor can adequately explain why their stories don't hold up to the necessary standard.

However, if I may be so bold as to speak for a certain body of fans, we are seeing some uncomfortable writing on the wall with Marvel overall. And if Bill Jemas, or others of his ilk, forget that the purpose of Marvel Comics (and by extension Epic) is to let each creative member of a team do the best work necessary to produce the best story possible, if it's "Jemas's way or the highway," we may end up smothering the voice of someone that this industry desperately needs, even if we don't know who it is yet.

[Howard]

Desperate Times will no longer be coming out/relaunched at Marvel.

[Shroud Shadow]

On Rich Johnston's advice, I just flipped to Lying in the Gutters, and happened across another link to a Dynamic Forces interview with Felicia, a Marvel insider who is saying a lot of the same things about the editorial process, and especially the Joe / Bill dynamic. It's probably old news to many of you, but I found it a great read. Click here. (http://www.dynamicforces.com/htmlfiles/tommy43.html)

[mikesang]

Originally posted by Howard
Desperate Times will no longer be coming out/relaunched at Marvel.

Well aware of the other Epic books, this was written about events that occurred several months ago. Also, the main purpose (at the time) was to announce the two books written by amatuers. I think (and I could be wrong) by that time only "Trouble" had been announced.
M

[Chesscub]

Originally posted by Howard
Desperate Times will no longer be coming out/relaunched at Marvel.

Any idea who (if anyone) will be publishing Desperate Times?

Jeff

[Howard]

>Any idea who (if anyone) will be publishing Desperate Times?<

Nope. I have a strong hunch that it has to do with the creator owned shenanigans and the fact that it was an existing title elsewhere previously as opposed to something Marvel owns. It's a shame.

[Doug Smith]

Shroud Shadow, that was an excellent, well-written post. Very well done.

But, please, no more hype for the insane ramblings of "Felicia". UGH!

To be fair to Marvel, they aren't the only ones who interfere with their books. DC nixed a Kyle Baker story about Superbaby's baby sitter, did they not? (I think it did surface later.) Mark Millar left "The Authority" in a huff because of pressure to keep the homosexuality between Apollo and Midnighter to a minimum. And there are many stories of Dan Raspler rewriting his writers.

Mike, I think one of the reasons so many have asked about Marvel's involvement in your writing process was because Bill Jemas said, in Marville 6 and/or 7, that Epic would allow new writers to have the creative freedom to tell the stories that they wanted to tell, the way that they wanted to tell them. I've asked the question and you've already answered - "Well, there is freedom, and then there is FREEDOM" - but I think it just took a lot of us by surprise that there were so many cooks in your kitchen, that's all.

Thanks, keep 'em comin' Mike!

[BlakSun]

Excellent post Shroud Shadow! I wish that there were more posters like you on this board.

People that can argue critically and intelligently are a joy to read.

In general, I don't even have to agree with the content -- as long as you express your point intelligently I can agree to disagree.

[Shroud Shadow]

After re-reading some of my earlier comments, I thought it would be appropriate to explain how Jemas is and can continue to be a benefit to Marvel.

While Doug Smith had correctly and wisely pointed out that undue editorial influence is hardly a Marvel monopoly, the point I was trying to make about Bill Jemas is that:
[list=1]
he is not even in an editorial position in the first place, and should be keeping any editorial influence as remote as possible. (And for those people who say that Jemas is justified in creative control, let me ask: If the position of president includes oversight into all areas of creative control, up to reassigning creative teams and writing books himself, then isn't the role of editor-in-chief obsolete (and don't say he's the assistant -- that's the executive editor). And, if the president's responsibilities were always meant to include literary and editorial contributions, what pedigree does Bill Jemas have that qualified him for the job in the first place? Trading cards and marketing for Madison Square Garden?)
his position is all the moreso dangerous because he is in a position of absolute authority over creative individuals, and seems to believe that said position is equivalent with creative superiority.
[/list=1]
This would be bad enough even if he was creative (again, the Marvel staff's love/hate relationship with Jim Shooter; the difference being that Shooter was within his jurisdicition as an editor-in-chief). It's worse in that he's not. At least, in Mr. Jemas's case, not creative enough to make his creative expression paramount.

I don't know what causes it. "It" being, the conceit that writing is easy. Mr. Jemas is obviously intelligent and articulate (you'd have to be to be a lawyer). But, if I might be impudent for a moment, many people believe that these are the only two components involved. Craft, inspiration, relevance, clarity, a desire and respect to serve the story rather than having it serve you -- all these go towards a writer. A lot more than just "beginning, middle, end." (And sometimes we don't even get that from some writers.) It's this attitude that tripped up many of the original creators from Image once readers started catching on to their literary shortcomings.

(In a side point, while it might be happening, there are considerably fewer stories of Jemas demanding art changes. And we certainly don't see Jemas scratching away at the art table to show us how it's done yet, do we? Good writing is a bit more ethereal than art; it's a forgiving craft to the merely adequate.)

I don't mean to imply that Jemas shouldn't write. If he's willing to go in there, take his knocks, learn from the pros, learn from his mistakes, pour his soul into a work, write and rewrite, all in the name of developing something that means so much to him, I have nothing but the highest support. Isn't that what all aspiring writers should do? But I've yet to get that vibe from him. The vibe of humble respect, not just of comics, but of the craft of writing itself. To me, he seems to see writing as a formula, an assembly-line process to a marketable product, one that he thinks he's nailed. And it's hard to enjoy the work of someone who thinks like that. And the worst part: if it's not good, it'll never get better.

But, if you had to ask me, is Jemas a potential asset to Marvel? Yes. But he has to start being the president and get out of the trenches with the soldiers. And he has to stop worrying so much about what other people think.

Yes, you read that right.

But, one may ask, if he did think about other people, would he be doing the things he is now? Hopefully not. So I will amend: He has to stop worrying about what other people think for the sake of P.R.

Now, hitting the brakes can be a good thing. From most accounts, it seemed that Jemas was going to take over Waid's post as writing of Fantastic Four until the public outcry made him reverse course. However, I think that his reaction was one of practicality, not repentance. If he was so sure that Waid was the wrong choice and that he himself was the right one, I think he would have continued anyway and let his creative output speak for itself. The fact that his reversal, although the correct decision, was made from weakness and not strength speaks poorly of the president.

But, a little over a year ago, Mr. Jemas made a decision which was gutsy, practical, within his authority and jurisdiction, and of great benefit to the company. It was a decision that made me feel hopeful as to his tenure at Marvel. And then, when things got ugly, he bailed.

Three of Marvel's titles, Black Panther, Spider-Girl, and Captain Marvel, which received poor sales but had very loyal fan bases and, some moreso than others, a high measure of critical acclaim, were on the cancellation chopping block. A fan wrote to Jemas with the simple solution: Increase the price of the flailing titles to make them financially viable. Jemas responded on the spot that it was a fantastic suggestion and decided to implement it.

This was a presidential move that I applauded. As a fan of the three books, I was practical enough to realize that Marvel, as a publishing concern, had to make sure each book could keep itself afloat. (As Charlton Heston once said, in an unrelated quote but with a similar principle, "The problem with show business as a business is that it's an art form; the problem with show business as an art form is that it's a business.) And because I loved those books, I had no problem paying the extra cost to keep them around.

Enter Peter David, writer of Captain Marvel. David was livid of such a policy being submitted without his approval or consent, and lambasted the idea. While I am a big fan of David's, and usually agree with most things he says, this is one area where he and I had profound disagreement. He suggested, among other solutions, that prices of more marketable books like X-Men should be increased to make up the shortfall, which strikes me as being patently unfair. Why should an X-Men fan pay to support a book that I like if he doesn't?

(As a side note: David once chided Todd McFarlane for the latter's comments about Marvel not asking his opinion about sales decisions, saying, basically, that if marketing kept itself out of his artwork, he should return the favor. Ironic.)

Although David made valid points (it doesn't serve the book well in getting new readership if the book's imminent cancellation is announced and the price is hiked), he seemed to miss the point. At the end of the day, new readership was secondary to keeping the book viable. Jemas's decision made sure that the existing fan base would keep it so.

However, because of David's pressure, Jemas recanted, and the whole thing eventually spiralled into the "U-Decide" thing.

And, as for those three titles? Well, Spider-Girl has been cancelled and saved a few times since, but has not really been a creative benchmark. Black Panther, in an attempt to win more readers, took a different direction, one that I enjoy, but doesn't have the flare that it originally had. And it's now been cancelled. It's hard to say what influence the preceding events had on the books, but in Black Panther's case, I don't think the desperate change of venue helped the book's future.

At least Captain Marvel's doing better.

Again, the point of this whole digression was to show that Bill Jemas could be an able president, if he would just do his job. He needs to keep himself away from the creative end as much as possible (unless he's willing to submit work that is subject to editorial approval, like everyone else), and to keep everyone else away from what he does best, which is running the company.

If Jemas can learn to do that, he might surprise us all.

[Doctor Defiance]

Mike,

As a musician/writer working in film and television, the give and take between yourself and the editors/producers of your comic is exactly the same dynamic I'm used to working under -

Much give and take wherein everyone tries to build the product(your comic) into a viable seller for the company. This is the way the entertainment BUSINESS works people! And you're getting a front row seat! The process isn't going to change because it doesn't fit into some pre-raphealite idea of what you might think being a "creator" means. Grow the f**k up people!

Cripes almighty, Mike's getting to play in the house that Stan and Jack built. Frankly, plenty of folks would PAY to do that! It's like fantasy league for comic geeks!

As for your insights into the process you're going through... keep it coming "phantom" jack!

Doc

[J.C. Lebourdais]

Originally posted by Shroud Shadow
(To quote an aside written by Peter David regarding this topic (which he wrote back in 1992, so I don't think his comments here involve grinding personal axes): "For what it's worth, I think a truly professional comics editor is one who is assigned a title and has no other agenda than to make sure good stories are being told. Sitting down with a writer and saying, "This story doesn't work for this and this reason, relating to dramatic structure," is absolutely proper. To sit down with a writer and say, "You're doing Story Type X, but I don't want to see that, I want to see Story Type Y, so adios," shows a lack of being able to delegate creative authority. It boils down to, "I want to see this book done the way I would do it if I were writing it." That does no service to anyone except an editor who wants to feel totally in charge.")


I don't think I agree with that. I just need to mention Julius Schwartz, Mort Weisinger or Jack Schiff. They were good editors but firmly directed their writers. Who, by the way, were seasoned prose writers, not grownup fanboys like Waid or Busiek.

JC

[MikeHuffman]

Let me further recognize Shroud Shadow's insightful, articulate comments on this thread. As a newspaper editor, it does my heart good to see a post that makes a point and backed up in a clear, intelligent way.

It's obvious he (or she) has put some thought into the subject.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind reading a regular Shroud Shadow column.

Now, if only you would use your real name...it would show a bit more confidence! Leave the anonymity to the "tralfazes" of the world, who prefer to snipe and run.

Mike

[BLACKBRIAR]

In all these columns are quite short and don't really say all that much. Have you guys thought of combining two or three of them at once? Having such a short blurb on this topic once a week seems more like a marketing initiative than content.

I think a more interesting column would be addressing the very issue of a so-called "journalist" now working for one of the companies that he used to cover. Reading many of these columns really reveals what a drooling fanboy Sangiacomo is (and getting a chance to fullfill a lifelong dream of writing a comic is really cool for him).

But given how giddy the tone of several of these articles have been one wonders just how conscious Sangi is of this situation and how this has/will effect him once the four issues have hit the stores.

And no that little disclaimer at the end of the article is not enough.

http://www.zentertainment.com/article.php?sid=9189

Preview art.

[mikesang]

Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR
In all these columns are quite short and don't really say all that much. Have you guys thought of combining two or three of them at once? Having such a short blurb on this topic once a week seems more like a marketing initiative than content.

I think a more interesting column would be addressing the very issue of a so-called "journalist" now working for one of the companies that he used to cover. Reading many of these columns really reveals what a drooling fanboy Sangiacomo is (and getting a chance to fullfill a lifelong dream of writing a comic is really cool for him).

But given how giddy the tone of several of these articles have been one wonders just how conscious Sangi is of this situation and how this has/will effect him once the four issues have hit the stores.

And no that little disclaimer at the end of the article is not enough.

Mike San Giacomo here:
It's a shame YOU are not enjoying the column. But since I am not writing it for you alone, I'll keep on going the way I have because, believe it or not, some other people are enjoying it and learning something from it.
There's a real easy solution for you though, just stop reading it. I won't mind, really.
M

[mikesang]

[B]Mike San Giacomo here:
Hey Blackbriar here's a thought, why don't you go over to John Jackson Miller's website or the one from the guy at CBR who is also working on an Epic book and bug them? How about Peter David or Tony Isabella? I'm sure they would love to have the benefit of your wisdom.
M

[Joe Kilmartin]

Originally posted by MikeHuffman
Let me further recognize Shroud Shadow's insightful, articulate comments on this thread. As a newspaper editor, it does my heart good to see a post that makes a point and backed up in a clear, intelligent way.

It's obvious he (or she) has put some thought into the subject.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind reading a regular Shroud Shadow column.

Now, if only you would use your real name...it would show a bit more confidence! Leave the anonymity to the "tralfazes" of the world, who prefer to snipe and run.

Mike

Hear Hear!

I little goent thought seems to go a looong way out here.

Thanks from me as well.


Joe

[BLACKBRIAR]

Originally posted by mikesang
Mike San Giacomo here:
Hey Blackbriar here's a thought, why don't you go over to John Jackson Miller's website or the one from the guy at CBR who is also working on an Epic book and bug them? How about Peter David or Tony Isabella? I'm sure they would love to have the benefit of your wisdom.
M


Quite frankly, how would you know if I have or have not addressed that with them?

In any event your repsonse is an incredibly poor dodge.

I addressed this question to YOU.

Do you have an answer?

I suggest it might make for a really interesitng final piece in this set of these ads, er "columns". ;)

[BLACKBRIAR]

Originally posted by mikesang
Mike San Giacomo here:
It's a shame YOU are not enjoying the column. But since I am not writing it for you alone, I'll keep on going the way I have because, believe it or not, some other people are enjoying it and learning something from it.
There's a real easy solution for you though, just stop reading it. I won't mind, really.
M

Great knee jerk reaction!

Again, you really didn't understand what I was saying.

I wasn't saying that you should STOP doing these ads, er "columns". However you could add a little more substance to justify one of these a week.

[Doctor Defiance]

Christ almighty... do the smart thing Mike, don't reply to this drivel.

Y'know... just because of this series of columns and the knowledge of the process Mike's going through that is imparted herein...

I've revamped my Epic submission from top to bottom... and my honest feeling is, regardless of whether or not Marvel accepts the script, it's far better than it was and in large part that's due to some of the things I've
read in Mike's column.

I'm not paying for this...
I'm pretty darn certain that Mike's not seeing a nickel for this column either...
Therefore it can and should be as short or long as Mike sees fit to make it.
Not enjoying it somehow? Feel ripped off (god knows why 'cause you're not paying for it)? Then do what Mike suggested...

Take a damn hike.

Doc

(...and as for folks worried about real names, mine's Sal Clemente and I live in Boston if you want to look me up. Doc Defiance is my stage name and if you follow the link below you'll see why I have one.)

[BLACKBRIAR]

Originally posted by Doctor Defiance
Christ almighty... do the smart thing Mike, don't reply to this drivel.

Y'know... just because of this series of columns and the knowledge of the process Mike's going through that is imparted herein...

I've revamped my Epic submission from top to bottom... and my honest feeling is, regardless of whether or not Marvel accepts the script, it's far better than it was and in large part that's due to some of the things I've
read in Mike's column.

I'm not paying for this...
I'm pretty darn certain that Mike's not seeing a nickel for this column either...
Therefore it can and should be as short or long as Mike sees fit to make it.
Not enjoying it somehow? Feel ripped off (god knows why 'cause you're not paying for it)? Then do what Mike suggested...

Take a damn hike.

Doc

(...and as for folks worried about real names, mine's Sal Clemente and I live in Boston if you want to look me up. Doc Defiance is my stage name and if you follow the link below you'll see why I have one.)

That's great that you are getting something out of this.

And it's great both of you are acheiving a lifelong dream (or trying to).

I am merely offering suggestions to give this column more substance.

I am not trying to tear Sangi down, but I am interested in how attaining this goal will effect his "regular" job. And I think it would make for a much better column.

This issue is obviously a senstivie one for Newsarama as well, since Brady/Sangi feel the need to place that long disclaimer on each article--so why not address it honestly rather than dodge the issue?

I would be really interested to read that.

So, now that I have spelled this out, can we avoid the rather simple-minded "if you don't like it, don't read it" drivel?

Oh yeah and PS I never said I felt "gypped" and, although Sangi might not be getting paid for this, the column is one looong ad for the miniseries (which again is a smart marketing move), so why not make it more substantial?

[gwangung]

Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR
That's great that you are getting something out of this.

And it's great both of you are acheiving a lifelong dream (or trying to).

I am merely offering suggestions to give this column more substance.


The problem is that what you're offering suggestions to give the column more substance. You're giving suggestions on what you want to see. There's a difference between the two and you're obviously ignoring the very real substance that's being offered.

Some of us LIKE seeing the mechanics and the process of creating a book. You don't. So be it, but stop pretending that you're trying to "improve" the column; you're just trying to substitute your message for what Mike wants to write---which is what a lot of nuMarvel critics have accused Marvel editors of doing.

[BLACKBRIAR]

Originally posted by gwangung
The problem is that what you're offering suggestions to give the column more substance. You're giving suggestions on what you want to see. There's a difference between the two and you're obviously ignoring the very real substance that's being offered.

Some of us LIKE seeing the mechanics and the process of creating a book. You don't. So be it, but stop pretending that you're trying to "improve" the column; you're just trying to substitute your message for what Mike wants to write---which is what a lot of nuMarvel critics have accused Marvel editors of doing.

Please re read my above post, but I'll repeat the necessary part for you:

So, now that I have spelled this out, can we avoid the rather simple-minded "if you don't like it, don't read it" drivel?

And no I do not think there is enough substance being offered here to justify a weekly series.

[MattBrady]

Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR
This issue is obviously a senstivie one for Newsarama as well, since Brady/Sangi feel the need to place that long disclaimer on each article--so why not address it honestly rather than dodge the issue?

Posting a disclaimer does not "dodge" the issue. It addresses it, and has addressed it from the very first column. In shorter words then, at Newsarama, Mike has, and continues to write opinion and editorial pieces. While he has on occasion, contributed to the news coverage of the site, he has not done so, nor will he do so while he is working for Marvel on <b>Phantom Jack</b>. The disclaimer was modeled in part, on that of Jeff Jensen, the Entertainment Weekly reporter who wrote the <b>X-Factor</b> miniseries for Marvel.

If your question is how will this affect Mike after the miniseries comes out, let me borrow your time machine, and I'll go ask him. I lieu of worrying about what could be, and what might happen, we post the disclaimer (which was run by and approved by several publishers and professionals for clarity, as they had no problem with it, and understood the meaning) to expalin how things are now.

Mike does not cover news. Since the beginning of the column, Mike's columns have been reviews and single issue/creator spotlights. Thus, they can be found in the opinion/editorial section. The only near exception to this was the interview with the oncoming FF writer, which Mike and I handled together, after I confirmed through Marvel the name of the writer.

And as for "I wus only trying to make things better!!", phrases like:

"so-called "journalist""
"reveals what a drooling fanboy Sangiacomo is"
"one wonders just how conscious Sangi is of this situation and how this has/will effect"
"these ads, er "columns"."

And continually referring to him by a derivative of his last name, which I'm thinking you mean to be a diminutive, and give you some kind of edge, really don't engender you to anyone, nor are seen in the majority of the world as being criticisms that are constructive in nature. Or lead the subject of such "suggestions" to take you in any way seriously.

As it stands, the disclaimer serves its purpose as far as I am concerned.

I'm sorry that you may not feel that it does, or that the columns are of an appropriate length for you to find them satisfactory, although, given your posting history, that hasn't seemed to stop you from reading them. Not ever article on Newsarama is going to appeal to every single reader in tone, content, or length.

MattB

[BLACKBRIAR]

Originally posted by MattBrady
Posting a disclaimer does not "dodge" the issue. It addresses it, and has addressed it from the very first column. In shorter words then, at Newsarama, Mike has, and continues to write opinion and editorial pieces. While he has on occasion, contributed to the news coverage of the site, he has not done so, nor will he do so while he is working for Marvel on <b>Phantom Jack</b>. The disclaimer was modeled in part, on that of Jeff Jensen, the Entertainment Weekly reporter who wrote the <b>X-Factor</b> miniseries for Marvel.

If your question is how will this affect Mike after the miniseries comes out, let me borrow your time machine, and I'll go ask him. I lieu of worrying about what could be, and what might happen, we post the disclaimer (which was run by and approved by several publishers and professionals for clarity, as they had no problem with it, and understood the meaning) to expalin how things are now.

Mike does not cover news. Since the beginning of the column, Mike's columns have been reviews and single issue/creator spotlights. Thus, they can be found in the opinion/editorial section. The only near exception to this was the interview with the oncoming FF writer, which Mike and I handled together, after I confirmed through Marvel the name of the writer.

And as for "I wus only trying to make things better!!", phrases like:

"so-called "journalist""
"reveals what a drooling fanboy Sangiacomo is"
"one wonders just how conscious Sangi is of this situation and how this has/will effect"
"these ads, er "columns"."

And continually referring to him by a derivative of his last name, which I'm thinking you mean to be a diminutive, and give you some kind of edge, really don't engender you to anyone, nor are seen in the majority of the world as being criticisms that are constructive in nature. Or lead the subject of such "suggestions" to take you in any way seriously.

As it stands, the disclaimer serves its purpose as far as I am concerned.

I'm sorry that you may not feel that it does, or that the columns are of an appropriate length for you to find them satisfactory, although, given your posting history, that hasn't seemed to stop you from reading them. Not ever article on Newsarama is going to appeal to every single reader in tone, content, or length.

MattB

1) Well of course not every article is going to satisfy every reader.

2) I still feel that there is not enough substance in this series to justify the frequency. And at this piont for me they are more ad content than "opinion".

3) If the disclaimer is enough to deal with the issue why has it changed over the course of the series?

4) I never claimed that Sangi was a reporter in the sense of needing "objectivity" but he does write an opinion column where he routinely discusses/reviews the company that is publishing his work--he is no longer just an onlooker. How has crossing the line effected him? --which I think is a much more interesting read than what we have got so far.

5) And I don't need an "edge": Sangi is just the same as someone abbreviating BlackBriar as BB to save keystrokes. I really don't consider it diminuative when someone uses BB. Maybe Sangiacomo is sensitive, or maybe you are just reading too much into the text.

6) And you left out that part where I said it was great that he is fullfilling what is obviously a lifelong dream.

7) In any event thanks for the repsonse.