MY EPIC JOURNEY 9: MIDDLES, ENDINGS, BEGINNINGS...

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Epic2.jpg" width="200" height="304" border="0" hspace="2" align="right"><I>by Mike San Giacomo </I>

<I>This is a weekly look at the process of writing a comic for Marvel’s new Epic line, <b>Phantom Jack</b>, which was to be called <b>Nowhere Man</b> until THE MAN made me change the name.

My story and script about Jack Baxter, a newspaper reporter who can turn invisible, was greenlighted by the powers that be at Marvel.

Last week, I reported that after spending the weekend totally rewriting the story and putting the origin first. Before I even sent the new work into Marvel (consisting of two full scripted issues and plots for the last two issues), I had a talk with Marvel President Bill Jemas who said he preferred my earlier version.

As my sainted uncle Antonio Vespucci San Giacomo used to say: oy vey.

And we’re off.</I>

It’s spring in Cleveland, not that you’d know it from the chilly temperatures.

Last week, I had a great chat with Marvel President Bill Jemas and Assistant Editor Stephanie Moore about <b>Phantom Jack</b>.

Jemas had some suggestions, as did Marvel Editor-in-Chief Joe Quesada, which they wrote up and e-mailed me.

Damn.

Some were why-didn’t-I-think-of-that obvious, others were some subtle improvements using pacing and structure. These were solid suggestions that took the original concept and tweaked it here and there.

I said I’d need my usual weekend to run the rewrites through the treadmill. If I remember right, I was heading out of town to cover the murder of a cop in Youngstown that week.

They said the weekend was fine.

Jemas’ main suggestion was to begin with a backstory that took place in Baghdad. Then have Jack Baxter, in the city newspaper doing cool stuff.

I had planned to reveal that later in the book, but Jemas’ idea worked just as well.

I don’t think I’m revealing too much by saying that Jack can turn invisible, it’s the only trick he has. The point is that a super-power that would put him on the level of Squirrel-Girl in the Marvel Universe, is pretty powerful in the real world.

Jack Baxter exists in our universe, where there are no guys in capes walking around, not counting the guys in certain sections of New York. Let me rephrase that, it’s a world where guys in capes can’t fly.

It’s the world of the New York Times. It’s the world of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. In that world, our world, a guy like Jack could run the place.

Possibly the biggest point of contention throughout the entire writing process, which resurfaced as recently as the last week, is when to reveal Jack’s power.

My original idea was to open the book with Jack fading out and whapping a mugger in Central Park.

Jemas suggested holding off on the obvious use of powers until the end of the first issue, make it the big surprise.

Hmmm, I kinda like that idea. It would mean some rewriting here and there, but could fit it nicely. Editors at Marvel will go back and forth on this point probably through the press run.

So, once again I called up the now-familiar script and starting cutting, pasting and rewriting.

The Iraq scene gets pulled from the middle and placed in the beginning. The mugging scene is out. Jack at home chatting with his nosy neighbor is out.

Some conversations between Baxter and his editor needed to be changed...

A nip and a tuck and three or four hours later: Voila.

Yes, I felt good about this one. I took all of Jemas and Quesada’s suggestions and weaved ‘em in.

I e-mailed the latest step in my Epic journey to Stephanie and soon received a cheerful reply that it seemed better, but there were just <I>a few little things</I> we’d like to talk about.

Uh-Oh. Who’s “we?”

She said she has been working with another assistant editor named Theresa Focarile who also had some thoughts. It’s been my experience that new editors come in with new ideas, so I expected some lively discussion.

Theresa and Stephanie said they wanted to know Jack more as a person: why does he do what he does?

Why doesn’t he do more?

We got sidetracked into journalism itself and the reporter’s <I>Prime Directive</I>: keep out of the story. Or, in the words of a long-forgotten <I>Philadelphia Inquirer</I> editor when he learned his City Hall reporter was boffing a city councilman: “I don’t care if you screw elephants, just don’t ask to cover the circus.”

Theresa and Stephanie were tugging at an idea that Jack realize that the <I>Prime Directive</I> is wrong and that he run around and set everything right.

No, I argued, a reporter would not do that.

Okay, if he saw a kid about to get run over by a bus he would save the kid’s life. But then, he would not write the story.

Jack can sneakily use his powers to help him get information, perhaps showing that a cop was on the mob payroll. Then he would write about it and let things happen. He would not thumb his nose at the concept of a reporter’s objectivity.

It’s a fine line, but consider it like this: What if Jack didn’t believe in abortion? It would not be fair for him to use his powers, or his newspaper, to make one side or the other look bad. He was a reporter first, a guy who could turn invisible, second.

I think they understood, but added that they needed to know more about Jack as a person...

Okay, I could do that.

And <I>why</I> he feels the need to use his powers to help people and keep it a secret...

Good, I could make that more clear...

And let’s have him involved in a dramatic invisibility scene earlier in the book.

Wait a minute, I said, Jemas and Quesada clearly thought we should save the invisibility hook for the end.

They countered that Bill and Joe didn’t necessarily mean the very end, just end-ish. Like the middle.

So, once more I said I would rework the plot with more characterization, more journalism sub-plots, a dramatic invisible rescue and showing how Jack is growing as a human being.

Without going over 22 pages, the old “can you add these 10 things and not make the story any longer?” request editors have been making of writers since The Bible.

Piece of cake. Give me the weekend.

Next: The word gets out.

<I>Mike Sangiacomo, a freelance writer for Newsarama and other sources, was invited to share his experiences with pitching to Epic by Newsarama's editor, Matt Brady, in the interest of keeping readers well informed. Brady advises Newsarama readers that he is aware of the inherent conflict of interest presented by journalists working for a publisher they cover. Sangiacomo's regular column Journey Into Comics has and will continue to be found in the Opinion/Editorial section of Newsarama. Brady has not, nor does he plan to pitch to Epic himself. </I>

[kingma15]

1st post

:)yay me

[Jun Kim]

Well, I am definitely glad they went back to your original idea. Any thoughts on release dates yet, Mike?

[MindTricked]

Mike, do you have the feeling (at this point of your tale) that "your baby" is being raised by waaaay too many wetnurses?

It really seems to me that everyone is trying to make it something its not... but the core of the character seems intact... for now.

[MadPiscus]

Originally posted by MindTricked
Mike, do you have the feeling (at this point of your tale) that "your baby" is being raised by waaaay too many wetnurses?

It really seems to me that everyone is trying to make it something its not... but the core of the character seems intact... for now.

Hrmm...

See, I don't know how it is in comics, but in the book industry relationships between writers and editors can extend from "He helped me get the book in the proper format and made a few suggestions" to "This is my editor and co-author" so the idea of the editors doing alot of fine-tuning isn't that odd to me.

[The Big Joe]

I dunno, this seems all a little bit too much like the new Tsunami books I've been trying to wade through.

Not the concept or the writer, but mainly how they're treating the book. Don't reveal the powers right until the end? Smacks of Venom to me.

I'll be a little disappointed if this book follows that formula all the way through to the end, though. Why? Because it makes me wonder if any and all new books that come out under the Epic umbrella will have to be slapped with this formula. And that, folks, I don't want.

I understand that Marvel has an interest in being able to turn it into the best it can be and make sure it sells a few thousand copies, but where's all the risk taking they proclaimed they'd be able to undertake? Mike's a good writer, always has been, so why not let him run with his thing?

Unless of course they know something that we don't about the way he writes a comic book. And then, I'm just another ranting looney.

[cosmictuna]

seems to me that the Epic books will be very formulaic. If you read all the things posted about Epic, you see that Jemas has come up with some formula, The Jemas Formula, of how a comic shoudl be written. If stories don't fall into this formula, then they're not good stories. And who better to come up with a formula to write comics than a lawyer.

And isn't there a joke somewhere in all this, like "How many people does it take to write an Epic book?"

[wubbster]

Marvel is slowly but surely hijacking this comic.
Before you know it the main character will be sporting a ridiculous outfit and be renamed Ultimate Phantom Jack.

Sheez, Marvel sucks...

[Vacuumboy9]

Before the boards crashed, I commented on the previous installment in which Stephanie asked for a lot of changes. Then I read the next week and Jemas and Queseda liked it the way it was. But... they wanted some tweaking. Now they want more tweaking, and some of it seems contradictory to other stuff.

At times I think OK they're just doing their jobs as editors but other times I feel they're co-opting the story. I think, based on what Mike is describing at present, it might be somewhere in the middle, leaning a bit more towards just being editors.

Still wishing good luck.

[mikesang]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wubbster
[B]Marvel is slowly but surely hijacking this comic.
Before you know it the main character will be sporting a ridiculous outfit and be renamed Ultimate Phantom Jack.

SAN GIACOMO HERE:
Ultimate Phantom Jack, hmmmm.
Seriously though, I think a lot of you have unrealistic expectations about Marvel and Epic. Yes it will still be the writer's project, but you can expect that Marvel editors are going to have input along the way. That's just how it is. That's what they are paid to do. Otherwise we'll end up with a bunch of unreadable crap. I mean seriously. I read some comics and wonder where the editor was when they were written because they don't make sense.

I'd much prefer an editor now saying, "this is not clear" and fixing it, rather than having readers scratch their heads.

I still feel that the story is the one I wanted to tell and that I am in the driver's seat. Marvel's kind of like my wife occasionally yelling "WATCH OUT FOR THAT CAR."
It would be a mistake to make everything conform to one style of writing. I have not seen that yet and hope that I won't.
By the way, the rumors that there are more than 2,000 scripts waiting to be looked at are untrue. I'm told that Marvel has only received about 400.
M

[cosmictuna]

I thought you were supposed to be your own editor with the Epic books.

Why don't the 'no names' get the benfiet(i use that term loosely) of four people working with them until they get it right?

O-kay, if the editor disliked the original way it was done, then jemas steps in and say it was fine that way, then one has to wonder if it doesn't boil down to personal taste.

i mean alot of these rejection letters state that the flaw with the story is 'story structure'. Then you read this and the editor said the story structure was wrong only to be told it was right.

anyone see my point? Can we trust the judgement of these editors, when the President of the company is even calling it into question?

[Vacuumboy9]

Originally posted by mikesang
I read some comics and wonder where the editor was when they were written because they don't make sense.

I'd much prefer an editor now saying, "this is not clear" and fixing it, rather than having readers scratch their heads.

I still feel that the story is the one I wanted to tell and that I am in the driver's seat. Marvel's kind of like my wife occasionally yelling "WATCH OUT FOR THAT CAR."

Yes but sometimes you also read comics where it's clear the editor was over the author's shoulder when it was written. Or to use your metaphor it's like your wife is not only warning you when cars are in danger of striking you, but every time a car is close to you.

Sometimes it can be too much. I thought for a while that you were in one of those situations. Now things are looking a bit better though.

[Kel]

I don't suppose the pre-crash installments are archived anywhere are they? (if they're here, I couldn't find them) This is the first chance I've had to read any of these and I'd sure like to read the rest.

I understand the editing.....the thing that just seems ineffective is having so bloody many people editing one thing. Creating by comittee can quickly turn into a circle jerk. Especially when some of the commitee don't seem to be on the same BOOK, much less the same page.

[Jun Kim]

Originally posted by Kel
I don't suppose the pre-crash installments are archived anywhere are they? (if they're here, I couldn't find them) This is the first chance I've had to read any of these and I'd sure like to read the rest.


They are up and available under the OP/ED section.

[Kel]

Thanks, I looked there but could find them. I better go look again!

[Promethea]

We got sidetracked into journalism itself and the reporter’s <I>Prime Directive</I>: keep out of the story. Or, in the words of a long-forgotten <I>Philadelphia Inquirer</I> editor when he learned his City Hall reporter was boffing a city councilman: “I don’t care if you screw elephants, just don’t ask to cover the circus.”



So, Do you cover the circus?

;)

Seriously, It's kind of funny that the people on the boards are complaining that the editors are bothering too much, when some people have said the Claremont or J.K. Rowling needed MORE editing. Guys, wait for the finished product to judge and remember that this is a look into the business. Mike seems to be going through what happens to make a movie. We're now seeing how the sausage is made.

[Laszlo]

There’s an aspect to this that hasn’t been thoroughly addressed--the experience Mr. Sangiacomo is relaying has virtually nothing in common with the way a “typical” Epic title is going to be handled according to Marvel. I realize you never claimed that it did, Mike, but in one of your previous columns you referred to yourself as a “guinea pig” for the Epic experiment. Well . . . that’s not quite accurate. Marvel is dealing with you pretty much the same way they’ve been dealing with freelance talent for decades (with the exception of salary). Your project has heavy editorial involvement, something that Marville #7 specifically states Epic books will NOT have. This directly from Bill Jemas, who (along with several others) has taken an active hand in guiding your title. You’ve been allowed to make multiple revisions, and were allowed to progress past the initial submission phase despite the fact that the first draft of your script--on page one--contained structural and technical errors. One panel actually contained multiple actions, an amateur mistake. According to Epic rejection letters, Marvel has rejected proposals from “unknowns” for having these type of structural issues, with little feedback on how to make the work more to Marvel’s liking, feedback which they have heavily and continually given you.

You’ve asked, “A writing partner? God, I must really suck,” when, following several rewrites, they were STILL so concerned that they asked you to take on a co-writer. I wouldn’t take that as a sign they thought you DIDN’T suck. Yet your book has gotten a green light. What’s odd is, as a journalist, you aren’t questioning any of this. No offense, but I think we both know that the concept of a journalist who can become invisible isn’t so innovative that they are working with you, despite all concerns about your writing, on the merits of that alone.

You aren’t acknowledging the possibility that Marvel is desperately trying to make your book printable so that you will do exactly what you are doing now--writing about Epic on Newsarama. I honestly don’t mean to piss on your parade here, Mike. Sincere congratulations on getting the go-ahead for Phantom Jack. I hope it does well for you and turns out to be a good read. I just felt it needed pointing out that you are being extended courtesies that an “unknown” submitting to EPIC shouldn’t expect.

[cosmictuna]

good points made, laszlo.

[The Big Joe]

Lazslo, thank you for opening up the eyes of the average fanboy. Very well put. The new king is Media. Long live the King.

Mike understands the inherent conflict but for some reason has been unable to see beyond the scope of his project.

Why haven't you questioned why they so badly want your project to make it to print in one of your columns, Mr. San Giacomo?

If your response is: "because I really, really, really want to have my project published by Marvel " then I can understand.

But if it's: "they're paying me more to do my column now, so I can't question my superiors" then your conflict of interest has blown way put of proportion.

I'd understand because I'd follow every single, possible suggestion that anyone and everyone at Marvel had, even including changing my legal name to "Marvel's Bitch" if they even considered publishing something written by myself. But I'm just a hack and I certainly don't have a solid day job like yourself. So, you really have to ask yourself which are you more, journalist or comic book writer?

Point #2

We're all looking to you for information about the process and what you're saying is in conflict with what they're saying to us. Classic Us vs. Them. Fanboys vs. Professionals.

From your columns we've come to expect that you are a competant writer, so part of the problem is that we haven't seen how you really write comics. We hold you in high enough regard that this constant interference from editors is disturbing.

Editors don't mess with Alan Moore's vision, but we all know why. Is it that you suck as a comic book writer and are a fabulous journalist? What is it?

Could you possibly answer this question for us: Why are they messing with your stuff so much?

[QCCBob]

#1- Remember when the knock on old Marvel was too much editorial interference getting in the way of the writer's vision? The more things change...

#2- Are they so paranoid that people will see this whole Epic stunt as a bribe toward the press that they will either make this book 'perfect' or annoy Mike into quitting? I mean, reading the preview for Crimson Dynamo made me lower my order on #2 just in case I might forget at the Order Cut Off date, so rushing out the material could be backfiring a tad.

[MattBrady]

Originally posted by Laszlo
You aren’t acknowledging the possibility that Marvel is desperately trying to make your book printable so that you will do exactly what you are doing now--writing about Epic on Newsarama.

To put words in Mike's mouth, that's becaue there is/was no possibility of that as a precondition for his book being accepted, or even a suggestion from them.

The idea to do the column, as Mike stated, originally came from Heidi McDonald asking if Mike was thinking of doing somehting like this during the Epic press conference, after his book was accepted. I pitched the idea to Mike the following day, and he originally said no. I asked again and again, pointing out the potentials for such a column, and finally he said yes. And I had no clue Mike had a book accepted by Epic until an hour or so before the press conference.

MattB

[Rod Odom]

one point of confusion here, I hope you don't take it personally.

You contend that hero wouldn't get himself too involved with the subjects he covers, because of the journalistic Prime Directive. However, in real life you are a comics journalist who is working for a comic book company. Is there a double hypocrisy, or am I missing something?

[mikesang]

Originally posted by Rod Odom
one point of confusion here, I hope you don't take it personally.

You contend that hero wouldn't get himself too involved with the subjects he covers, because of the journalistic Prime Directive. However, in real life you are a comics journalist who is working for a comic book company. Is there a double hypocrisy, or am I missing something?

Mike Sa Ngia Como he re:
Yeah you're missing something, but you know. At this point I don't really care if you realize it or not.
I don't think I'm working "for" a comic book company so much as I am flexing a muscle to see the business from the inside. I have learned a lot in these few short months. For one thing, I've learned to admire the writers who can keep on working despite rude and crude comments from their readers.
Hell, at least when I work WITH the editors at Marvel we discuss things calmly and come to reasonable conclusions, unlike people on this board that make snap judgments based on nothing.
For the record, and I never mentioned this because I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, a portion of whatever I am paid for this will go to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund.
And I'm sure someone is out there right now saying "Yeah, but HOW MUCH is he giving?
Let me save you the trouble and give you the answer: NONE OF YOUR FREAKING BUSINESS.
As far as your point about hypocrisy and a comic journalist writing a comic, that would be true if my attitude toward Marvel has changed because of the book, meaning I would give the company favorable reviews and such. That is so freaking insulting I could spit. No one at Marvel expects me to be any less a prick than I ever have, and nor should they. Actually, I have written much less about Marvel in favor of other companies just to avoid the appearance of a conflict.
m
And if I sound pissed off, I am.


But you know, that won't matter to a bunch of you, who are likely clicking away at your keyboards right now.

[Jun Kim]

Well, for the defense of much of the readers, I think much of the skepticism and unfounded criticism has died down a lot... but really, folks... it does surprise me to see that there are people that are bringing up a dead issue all over again. I am wondering why it's pissing so many people off that something good is happening to someone? Mike is a journalist who obviously loved comics deep in his nature and he's getting a shot at creating something that could be worthwhile reading... and what's the problem here? That he's getting paid for it? What the heck is this world coming to? How many prominent journalists do we have in this country alone that has written a book or two and made money on it? I have not seen so many people criticize these jounalists like I've seen people spew out at Mike.

Come on people... look around you... look at the state that comic book industry is in? I know many of you wish this wonderful medium perpetuate... so why not harness all that energy in doing something constructive for that goal? If this industry prospers, imagine the good that would come out of that!!! Let's stop the badgering of people that are trying to making something worthwhile happen in the world of comics.

[JLAJRC]

Ever watch that HBO show "Project Greenlight?" Amazing how when I read Mike' article's about Epic is like watching that show

[Jun Kim]

I don't think I've ever seen that show... what is it like?

[Rod Odom]

I apologize to Mr. Sangiacomo for angering him, but I felt that the contradictions raised were too obvious to ignore.

It seems to me in this country it's not uncommon for politicians to become journalists and commentators, then back again. However, have any of these people ever held down both professions at the same time?

[cosmictuna]

I think a lot of people 'are missing something', to qoute the man himself.

For most posters it's not about mike working for Marvel while writing about marvel. i personally couldn't give two shakes of a monkey's ass about that aspect.

I think the point some are trying to make is that Mike and his Epic book are getting treatment that's not being extended to everyone. Do 'no-names' get four people walking them through their scripts until it's structural sound and ready to see print? no, they get a rejection letter telling them they 'need to work on story structure before you're ready to write for comics." and go by an issue of Marville #7. Then they tell you 'once you read and understand this overview..." There's no mention of them emailing you to let you know what's specifically wrong.

The point is don't claim to be a guinea pig when you're not.

Oh, and by the way, the fact you're donating a portion of the money you make is irrelevant. It pertains to nothing and excuses nothing. it doesn't make you a saint. and claiming you didn't want to mention it and make a big deal about, only to do it, is a testament to the fact you did want to make a big deal out of it. Capone use to donate to charities all the time. it didn't make him the patron saint of Chicago.

[Jun Kim]

Originally posted by Rod Odom
I apologize to Mr. Sangiacomo for angering him, but I felt that the contradictions raised were too obvious to ignore.

It seems to me in this country it's not uncommon for politicians to become journalists and commentators, then back again. However, have any of these people ever held down both professions at the same time?

Rod, may I ask what your definition of a journalist is... and your reason why they are "paid" in the first place? What exactly about what Mike is doing (that you presume to know) are you having a problem with? How is it personally affecting you? More importantly, what about the people in country having the freedom to choose what they want to do for a living that you have even more of a problem with?

[Jun Kim]

Originally posted by cosmictuna
I think a lot of people 'are missing something', to qoute the man himself.

For most posters it's not about mike working for Marvel while writing about marvel. i personally couldn't give two shakes of a monkey's ass about that aspect.

I think the point some are trying to make is that Mike and his Epic book are getting treatment that's not being extended to everyone. Do 'no-names' get four people walking them through their scripts until it's structural sound and ready to see print? no, they get a rejection letter telling them they 'need to work on story structure before you're ready to write for comics." and go by an issue of Marville #7. Then they tell you 'once you read and understand this overview..." There's no mention of them emailing you to let you know what's specifically wrong.

The point is don't claim to be a guinea pig when you're not.

Oh, and by the way, the fact you're donating a portion of the money you make is irrelevant. It pertains to nothing and excuses nothing. it doesn't make you a saint. and claiming you didn't want to mention it and make a big deal about, only to do it, is a testament to the fact you did want to make a big deal out of it. Capone use to donate to charities all the time. it didn't make him the patron saint of Chicago.

First of all, I think you misrepresent the "people" you claim to represent when you say that people don't have problems with Mike's dual occupation (read some of the previous post, it's pretty obvious).

Second, how do you know so well "first hand" how EPIC editors are handling the submissions?

He is a guinea pig because Marvel tried much of the "working relationships" and "legal issues" and Mike's and the other EPIC project... they were given an assignment even before Marvel ironed out all of the details, which they released at a later date to the public submissions.

He doesn't need to be "excused" by anyone... including myself. I can't think of one person (possibly, including you) that is pitching to EPIC with total altruistic intentions.

Capone was a criminal and Mike is not. Comparing this situation with such a ludricrous case such as Capone's shows how absolutely misguided your "judgment" of Mike is...

What is it about the web that brings out the worst in some people? Why would some people personally insult someone just because they can hide behind a computer screen?

Please, do us all a favor. Grow up.

[cosmictuna]

Originally posted by Jun Kim
First of all, I think you misrepresent the "people" you claim to represent when you say that people don't have problems with Mike's dual occupation (read some of the previous post, it's pretty obvious).

Second, how do you know so well "first hand" how EPIC editors are handling the submissions?

He is a guinea pig because Marvel tried much of the "working relationships" and "legal issues" and Mike's and the other EPIC project... they were given an assignment even before Marvel ironed out all of the details, which they released at a later date to the public submissions.

He doesn't need to be "excused" by anyone... including myself. I can't think of one person (possibly, including you) that is pitching to EPIC with total altruistic intentions.

Capone was a criminal and Mike is not. Comparing this situation with such a ludricrous case such as Capone's shows how absolutely misguided your "judgment" of Mike is...

What is it about the web that brings out the worst in some people? Why would some people personally insult someone just because they can hide behind a computer screen?

Please, do us all a favor. Grow up.


did you read my post? or did you understand it? here let me clearify.

First, i said 'most' of the people not 'all'. There is a difference. you can find it any dictionary.

Second, have you been to any other sites? you can READ how the other submissions are being handled.

And why does everyone assume that anyone who raises a question about Epic muct have submitted? If you question politics does that mean you're running for office?

And please before you go trying to use my words for you're own agenda, which you said yourself all posters must have including yourself, atleast try to understand them.

I wasn't saying Mike is a criminal like Capone. That's absurd. The fact YOU thought such says more than i'm willing to. My point was saying you donate to the CBLDF is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I donate to it and i can garuntee i make far less than mike does. Does that make me a better person than Mike? no. It doesn't pertain to anything.

Final point- If you don't want to see the otherside of the river, stop getting in the boat.

[Jun Kim]

Originally posted by cosmictuna
did you read my post? or did you understand it? here let me clearify.

First, i said 'most' of the people not 'all'. There is a difference. you can find it any dictionary.

Second, have you been to any other sites? you can READ how the other submissions are being handled.

And why does everyone assume that anyone who raises a question about Epic muct have submitted? If you question politics does that mean you're running for office?

And please before you go trying to use my words for you're own agenda, which you said yourself all posters must have including yourself, atleast try to understand them.

I wasn't saying Mike is a criminal like Capone. That's absurd. The fact YOU thought such says more than i'm willing to. My point was saying you donate to the CBLDF is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I donate to it and i can garuntee i make far less than mike does. Does that make me a better person than Mike? no. It doesn't pertain to anything.

Final point- If you don't want to see the otherside of the river, stop getting in the boat.

Thanks for clarifying your points.

I think it's you that's misquoting me... I said "all of the people" you claim to represent... I was not saying you were speaking for "all the people".

How do you explain your choice of words, such as: "is no excuse"... ? I would have thought such words meant that there was a judgment and Mike's explanation was not good enough. So you are right. I don't understand because it does not make sense to me...

Unless I'm wrong in assuming this (since I have not read all of the other posts you are alluding to), it is still not a first hand account of the "inside proceedings" by the EPIC editors. If I'm wrong in this claim you can clarify that for me also. Sports superstars are recuited on a daily basis... make a heaping amount of more money than the comic creators... and how much stint does it raise that Yao Min might have four trainers tending to his every need while there are some unfortunate souls that didn't make it past the first draft pick?

I said "possibly you" and no, I do not represent "everyone" alluding.

My agenda is very clear... Mike is a friend and a good man. I can't stand that people are being rude to him, darn near crucifying him. It seems as though his agreeing to Matt about doing this column was committing himself to a trial. What is he on trial for? What has he done to us? What was the damage that was done to the readers? When did we the readers of his column become the prosecutor, judge and the jury to throw whatever assumption we have?

Capone - Your choice of parallel example, not mine. If you say now that using that example did NOT compare Mike to Capone, then it's your right to claim that.

I did not know that my opinion being different than yours made me a closed-minded person and even worse, should keep my mouth shut... but of course, this could just be another case of me "using your words for my agenda".

[cosmictuna]

Originally posted by Jun Kim
Thanks for clarifying your points.

I think it's you that's misquoting me... I said "all of the people" you claim to represent... I was not saying you were speaking for "all the people".

So how do you explain your choice of words, such as: "is no excuse"... ? You are right about my not understanding some things very clearly...

Unless I'm wrong in assuming this (since I have not read all of the other posts you are alluding to), it is still not a first count of the "inside proceedings" by the EPIC editors. If I'm wrong in this claim you can clarify that for me also. Sports superstars are recuited on a daily basis... make a heaping amount of more money than the comic creators... and how much stint does it raise that Yao Min might have four trainers tending to his every need while there are some unfortunate souls that didn't make it past the first draft pick?

I said "possibly you" and no, I do not represent "everyone" alluding.

My agenda is very clear... Mike is a friend and a good man. I can't stand that people are being rude to him, darn near crucifying him. It seems as though his agreeing to Matt about doing this column was committing himself to a trial. What is he on trial for? Why has he done to you? What was the damage that was done to the readers? When did we the readers of his column become the prosecutor, judge and the jury to throw whatever assumption we have?

Capone - Your choice of parallel example, not mine. If you say now that using that example did NOT compare Mike to Capone, then it's your right to claim that.

I did not know that my opinion being different than yours made me a closed-minded person and even worse, should keep my mouth shut... but of course, this could just be another case of me "using your words for my agenda".

i'm trying to figure out where i've made some statement against mike. could you please point this out to me.

[Jun Kim]

Originally posted by cosmictuna
i'm trying to figure out where i've made some statement against mike. could you please point this out to me.

I guess if what you've posted earlier and other statments you'd agreed to didn't make that clear then I'm at fault for assuming that.

[cosmictuna]

Originally posted by mikesang
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wubbster
[B]Marvel is slowly but surely hijacking this comic.
Before you know it the main character will be sporting a ridiculous outfit and be renamed Ultimate Phantom Jack.

SAN GIACOMO HERE:
Ultimate Phantom Jack, hmmmm.
Seriously though, I think a lot of you have unrealistic expectations about Marvel and Epic. Yes it will still be the writer's project, but you can expect that Marvel editors are going to have input along the way. That's just how it is. That's what they are paid to do. Otherwise we'll end up with a bunch of unreadable crap. M

Actually, Mike that's not what the editors are paid to do in the case of epic, as is stated in the contract. You are responsible for your own editing.

[cosmictuna]

Originally posted by Jun Kim
I guess if what you've posted earlier and other statments you'd agreed to didn't make that clear then I'm at fault for assuming that.


i remember saying laszlo made good points, but i don't remember saying i agreed with him.

[QCCBob]

Originally posted by cosmictuna
Actually, Mike that's not what the editors are paid to do in the case of epic, as is stated in the contract. You are responsible for your own editing.

That's the point that's kind of disturbing about the whole thing. There's a clear difference between Joe Public's Epic and the launch invitees Epic. Do I think Mike is bought and paid for with this comic? NO! Is Marvel hoping for a pass here and there? Probably. Will they get one? I doubt it. BUT, will everyone else that isn't an industry insider get this much 'free' help from Marvel to put out their comic? I think not. There is in no way a knock on Mr. SG. He may be receiving preferential treatment, but I have no doubt he is getting it for Marvel's benefit. Whether it sets up a double standard that comes back to bite them, only time will tell.

So, I guess the obvious, somewhat nosy question for Mr. San Giacomo would be, did you get the same contract and payment stipulations that were published for everyone else or was your deal different? My guess would be that it wasn't the same since it was in the works before the official stuff was posted.

[cosmictuna]

Originally posted by Jun Kim
Thanks for clarifying your points.

Sports superstars are recuited on a daily basis... make a heaping amount of more money than the comic creators... and how much stint does it raise that Yao Min might have four trainers tending to his every need while there are some unfortunate souls that didn't make it past the first draft pick?



1) Yao Ming wasn't recruited. He was drafted after proving he could play professional ball.

a)did mike prove he could write a comicbook before being "drafted"?

2) Any trainer a player uses past the one the team provides is solely the finicial responsibility of that player. Yao Ming pays for his four trainers. the reason 'some unfortunate souls' don't get that benifiet is they can't afford it. and yes, i do know some NBA players-Greg Buckner, Chris Whitney, and Popeye Jones.

b) does mike pay for the services of these editors?

so to use Yao Ming as analogy for this case doesn't work.

[Jun Kim]

Originally posted by cosmictuna
1) Yao Ming wasn't recruited. He was drafted after proving he could play professional ball.

a)did mike prove he could write a comicbook before being "drafted"?

2) Any trainer a player uses past the one the team provides is solely the finicial responsibility of that player. Yao Ming pays for his four trainers. the reason 'some unfortunate souls' don't get that benifiet is they can't afford it. and yes, i do know some NBA players-Greg Buckner, Chris Whitney, and Popeye Jones.

b) does mike pay for the services of these editors?

so to use Yao Ming as analogy for this case doesn't work.

Did you know that Yao got a huge press coverage for his charity contribution? Pretty cool guy, don't you think?

[cosmictuna]

I would like to clarify something before anyone(i'm NOT meaning anyone in particular) else jumps my sh**. I am, in no way, intending to make statements against Mike. I don't know him personally. So for me to do such a thing would be absurd. I'm sure he's a great guy. He loves his cats and his wife. In truth, that's all anyone can ask of their fellow human beings.

[cosmictuna]

Originally posted by Jun Kim
Did you know that Yao got a huge press coverage for his charity contribution? Pretty cool guy, don't you think?

yes he is.

[Doug Smith]

Hmmmmm....a few thoughts....

"Mike Sangiacomo, a freelance writer for Newsarama and other sources, was invited to share his experiences with pitching to Epic by Newsarama's editor, Matt Brady, in the interest of keeping readers well informed. Brady advises Newsarama readers that he is aware of the inherent conflict of interest presented by journalists working for a publisher they cover. Sangiacomo's regular column Journey Into Comics has and will continue to be found in the Opinion/Editorial section of Newsarama. Brady has not, nor does he plan to pitch to Epic himself."

The disclaimer is there for all to read.

Is Marvel helping Mike? Sure. Why? Well, maybe they feel that they have a lot riding on Epic, and want the book to be as strong as possible. Or maybe there is something in the story - some plot twist or concept - that is so strong, that they feel it's worth the time and effort to help him along. I've got a concept I'm working on that reads like a conventional superhero book for the first 5 or 6 issues, but issues 7 and 8 will (hopefully) blow people's minds.

Will other aspiring writers get the same assist? Who knows. Hopefully I'll be able to report back and let you know within the next six months ;) but whatever the case, it never ceases to amaze me how people will try to find as much wrong with Marvel as they possibly can. Assuming for the moment that Epic is not the hoax that certain anonymous internet posters have presented it to be (and I don't believe it's a hoax), then this could be something great for comic fans. Quit pissing on it!

And as far as being bent out of shape about Mike's conflict of interest? He's covering comic books guys - it's not like Marvel is bribing him to bury the fact that they're poisoning the drinking water for the greater New York metropolitan area.

Mike, I find your column informative and helpful - please keep it up!

[cosmictuna]

nice artwork Kim.

[Rod Odom]

Rod, may I ask what your definition of a journalist is... and your reason why they are "paid" in the first place? What exactly about what Mike is doing (that you presume to know) are you having a problem with? How is it personally affecting you? More importantly, what about the people in country having the freedom to choose what they want to do for a living that you have even more of a problem with?

I have no problem with what he doing with Marvel or how he is making his living. I'm just pointing out the logical inconsistency in his latest journal entry. He feels his journalist hero would keep a professional distance from events because of journalistic ethics. However Sangiacomo himself is a journalist who is developing that story at a company that he has written about.

I think I understand the gist of his defense, that no violation of his ethics will occur because he has compartimentalized his journalistic activity from his Marvel work. To question his ability to do so is the same as questioning his ethics.

I wish the writer all the best and I'm sure the book will be of high quality.

[mikesang]

Originally posted by cosmictuna
Actually, Mike that's not what the editors are paid to do in the case of epic, as is stated in the contract. You are responsible for your own editing.

Editors are paid to edit. No matter what the contract says, there is no way that Marvel will release anything without it being edited. That's just crazy. Look at the spelling of many people here, not to mention the simple typing errors that can easily slip by anyone editing his own work.
I believe Marvel is saying there will be no editors involved so writers will not expect editors to walk them through several rewrites.
I honestly don't know how this is going to shake out. I can't imagine Marvel publishing books that are substandard. On the other hand, I can't see how they could afford to have editors spend hours or days whipping scripts into shape.
Perhaps they will select a small number of well-done scripts and do enough editing to make them presentable.
I think it should be obvious that my book, like John J. Miller's, is getting a lot of editor attention because they are among the first.
There's no way many books will get that kind of close attention.M

[Jun Kim]

Originally posted by cosmictuna
nice artwork Kim.

Thank you. I am hoping to land an EPIC illustration assignment...

Originally posted by mikesang
Look at the spelling of many people here, not to mention the simple typing errors that can easily slip by anyone editing his own work.

Guilty as charged...

[mikesang]

So, I guess the obvious, somewhat nosy question for Mr. San Giacomo would be, did you get the same contract and payment stipulations that were published for everyone else or was your deal different? My guess would be that it wasn't the same since it was in the works before the official stuff was posted. [/B][/QUOTE]
Mike here:
I'm working under the same contract as everyone else. No different.
M

[QCCBob]

Mike here:
I'm working under the same contract as everyone else. No different.
M [/B]

Guess it was closer to ready to roll than I thought. Sorry though, I kind of hoped for your sake with all this work, you had at least a slightly better deal.

The editorial thing still has me stumped. How can they possibly put out any comics if this is the kind of procedure that they are going to employ? Mike knows how to write and this is pretty intense, not to mention the fact that the COO & EiC seem to have a different philosophy than the Epic 'editors'.

[Super Skrull]

Why are people jumping to so many conclusions about editorial input on the unknowns that haven't been approved yet?

This is the most Obsessive/Compuslive thread I have ever read!

[JLAJRC]

The new season just started and is slightly different than the first season. But basically what happened in the first season is that the winner of a contest wrote a script and directed it. However, because, Miramax was putting up the million dollars to make the film the director was told what to do many times. Kinda like what's going on with the editors here. If you got a DVD player the entire first season and the movie that came from it is out. I urge you to rent it.

[Nobody]

Up til this point I didn't give two tugs of a dead dogs nuts about this Epic column, Mike S., Nowhere Man or whatever.

The premise alone, not my thing. Not gonna buy it. Just not interested. No slam against Mike, Epic, Nowhere Man, Newsarama, or whatever. Just personal taste.

But I will slam Mike with his initial response to the bevy of negative posts. Personally I agree with a lot of the points, mostly toward the Marvel is Evil catagory. That said, your response is about as professional as Marge Schott on a drunken rampage.

Seriously.

Journalism integrity or not, you are now a soon-to-be comic industry professional. And anyone coming in cold to thing seeing you spout out that you hate all your potential fans, probably not gonna be interested in seeing the work you eventually produce.

Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but not much.

You're a potential professional now. Act like it. Don't be that person, don't be the assholes we see making fools of themselves because li'l Timmy Comicbookreader thinks they suck. You have to be bigger than that, and thus far, ya ain't.

Or you can lay out another attack and prove me horribly right.

[karmapunk]

Wow Mike,

And I thougt Janet Reno had it bad when she stepped up to the podium! Sheesh! Thanks for sticking with us through this barrage of ridiculous paranoia and mean spiritedness. Most of us do apprecite and enjoy the column.

AND I do have a geniune honest to goodness question - Over at the x-fan boards, Stephanie Moore has been good enough to filed some questions re: Epic and she said recently that they may be doing away with the whole creator-owned option. So I was curious, if you don't mind answering, what kind of contract is Phantom Jack under? It seems to not take place in the MArvel universe, so what's the dilly 'yo? Is it a work-for-hire or do you have a piece of the Phantom Jack pie? (that came out sounding grosser than I meant it)

[mikesang]

Originally posted by karmapunk
Wow Mike,

And I thougt Janet Reno had it bad when she stepped up to the podium! Sheesh! Thanks for sticking with us through this barrage of ridiculous paranoia and mean spiritedness. Most of us do apprecite and enjoy the column.

AND I do have a geniune honest to goodness question - Over at the x-fan boards, Stephanie Moore has been good enough to filed some questions re: Epic and she said recently that they may be doing away with the whole creator-owned option. So I was curious, if you don't mind answering, what kind of contract is Phantom Jack under? It seems to not take place in the MArvel universe, so what's the dilly 'yo? Is it a work-for-hire or do you have a piece of the Phantom Jack pie? (that came out sounding grosser than I meant it)

MIKE SAN GIACOMO HERE:
It's true. Marvel board of directors balked at new people being able to make creator-owned deals. I believe it will happen down the line with Epic, but probably with known writers and artists.
Phantom Jack is now a word-for-hire project, though I will be forever known as the creator. If it gets turned into a television show or a movie, I get a bonus, though not a percentage of the pie. I doubt very much it will turn into a movie or TV show, but if it does, I'm covered.
And yes, Phantom Jack takes place in the real world, not the Marvel universe.
And thanks for not comparing me to Hitler, Marge Schott or Hannibal Lectar.
M

[TVerBeek]

Originally posted by mikesang
By the way, the rumors that there are more than 2,000 scripts waiting to be looked at are untrue. I'm told that Marvel has only received about 400.Steph Moore has told folks on x-mencomics.com/xfan/ that there are about 500. [obsessive marvel-hater mode]So obviously she's lying to you! Or us!! Or both!!![/obsessive marvel-hater mode]

[mikesang]

Originally posted by TVerBeek
Steph Moore has told folks on x-mencomics.com/xfan/ that there are about 500. [obsessive marvel-hater mode]So obviously she's lying to you! Or us!! Or both!!![/obsessive marvel-hater mode]
SANGIACOMO HERE:
You're kidding right? I mean I'm not the brightest bulb in the bunch and sometimes sarcasm escapes me, even though I use it all the time myself.
Assuming you're kidding:
Hah, good one.

[abstractgeek]

i think ther is a misconception here about the treatment mike is being given. mike is not being given editorial help because he is an established name. it because his book was basicall accepted by epic. all the people posting on other borads about rejection letters have been rejected. many journalists were offered a chance to pitch. most of them got rejected outright, and recieved none of this input. mike is one of the examples that have made it to the maybe pile. from what stephanie moore has said, the original idea of low editorial input didnt pan out quite like they expected. so far i have heard of no one from the open submission call getting a book accepted. but there are apparently a few in the maybe pile there. if those books get a green light, they may well get this kind of input. also rob worley who is doing young ancient one, has also gotten editorial feedback, but less so. im sure these first crop of books will get a little more attention, but marvel needs these to come out strong or the whole epic line will suffer.