Seven Soldiers of Victory Overview

[Groovie Mann]

Seven Soldiers of Victory


Table of Contents
Part 1: Below
Part 2: Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1157398#post1157398)
Part 3: Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1184867#post1184867)
Part 4: Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1228701#post1228701)
Part 5:Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1397820#post1397820)
Part 6: Here (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1588323#post1588323)
--
From David Bird
Chronology (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1468601#post1468601)

Chronology II (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1472425#post1472425)

Gundies Info (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1269410#post1269410)

--

I'm going to try to keep all us Seven Soldier readers up to date with whats been published. Whats happened in every individual issue. the characters whsoe shown as well as the connections between each individual mini. I'll aslo give you as much info as I can find on parts some might think are confusing. The various symbolism, historical, literary, mythological, etc. references.

First off, thanks to the various posters at CBR Forums (http://forums.comicbookresources.com)(Berk, Wesley Dodds, patience, Paul McEnery, Micheal Painter, Lex, CaptMagellan, ultramandingo, expletive deleted, Gingold, Indigo Al, probably more) who I stole, er-borrowed a lot of info from(plus did a little reaserch of my own.

Also Barbelith (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers).

So lets get started and please do contribute and ask questions.

What is the Seven Soldiers of Victory?
Currently running in DC, Seven Soldiers is the mega-series envisioned by award winning comic creator Grant Morrison. In encompasses seven 4-part mini-series and two book ends. Following a modular story telling approach where each book can be read separately but all together tells a bigger story.

Seven Soldiers Special #0
Shining Knight #1-4
Guardian #1-4
Zatanna #1-4
Klarion the Witch Boy #1-4
Mr. Miracle #1-4
Bulleteer #1-4
Frankenstein! #1-4
Seven Soldiers Special #1

What About JLA: Classified 1-3?
JLA Classified can serve as a teaser for Seven Soldiers since it is the first appearance of the main villains the Sheeda and Neh-Buh-Loh the Hunter. However it is not needed to understand the Seven Soldiers story. Might just be a way to establish that this story takes place within the same universe as the Justice League of America. Through out Seven soldiers there are references to DCUs popular team.

Brief History of the Seven Soldiers
Formed in the early 40s in the pages of Leading Comics #1 seven heroes, working independently, battle the agents of Iron Hand. They joined together to become Laws’ Legionnaires or the Seven Soldiers. The original team founded by Crimson Avenger(1), the Spider(1), Shining Knight(1), Billy Gunn(no, not the DX member), Vigilante(1), the Star-Spangled Kid and Stripesy.

The team had members go in an out. The Pre-Crisis original team included Green Arrow and Speedy before continuity fixing retconned thier addition to the team. The original team was betrayed by Spider and then engaged in a battle with Nebula Man. A battle where the unofficial member Wing sacrificed himself to save the day.

Decades later a new team under the same name emerged which included Batgirl(1), deadman, Adam strange, Mento, Blackhawk, Metamorpho, and Atomic Knight. This team also had to contend with Iron hand.


Seven Soldiers Special #0
Art by JH Williams III & Dave Stewart
Characters: Thomas Ludlow Dalt/Alias the Spider/I, the Spyder, Shelly Gaynor/The Whip, Greg Saunders/The Vigilante, Jacqueline Pemberton/Gimmix, Boy Blue, Dyno-Mite Dan, Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp(cameo), Neh-Buh-Loh
Summary:In the prologue, True Thomas, Thomas Ludlow Dalt(Alias, the Spider> heads to Slaughter Swamp to kill a target and he comes in the presence of Seven Unknown Men. These men originally hired Thomas Ludlow Dalt and brought him to the swamp to prepare him for his true mission.

In Weird Adventures Part 1: Shelly and the Super-Cowboys Shelly Gaynor, the Whip, narrates the story. Here she speaks about her using her grand fathers hero name to achieve her own fame by writing books about her adventures. Seeking a new thrill she contacts Greg Saunders, the Viglante, whose putting together a super-hero team. Saunders once worked with her grandfather, the original Whip.

In Part 2: Big Time Country we are in Texas as Shelly becomes a part in his new Seven Soldiers. Vigilante was a part of the original team with the Whip. This time they are forming in an attempt to hunt the giant spider of Miracle Mesa. Problem arises that the seventh soldier got cold feet and now there is only six heroes. Alias, the Spider now known as I, Spyder, Gimmix, Boy Blue, Boy Blue, and Dyno-Mite Dan.

In Part 3: Midnight At Miracle Mesa the heroes fight the giant spider and win. They soon discover its actually a machine that elad them into a trap set by the Sheeda lead by Neh-Buh-Loh. The scene ends in a image of the soldiers fighting and some dying.

Ends with the epilogue Save Seven as the Seven Unkown Men work out plan B while the Sheeda arrive to start the Harrowing.

Things of Note
Slaughter Swamp is the birth place of DC villain Cyrus Gold/Soloman Grundy.

“Another schmuck with bow and arrows! That’s it?”
“Where’s the twist? Where’s the gimmick?”
Those lines can be used to refernce Spiders father the original I, the Spider as well as the character Gimmix.

Gimmix, real name Jacqueline Pamberton, may actually be Merry of a 1000 Gimmicks. Merry Pamberton was the foster sister of Star-Spangled Kid. Later she became a hero herself and then married the villain Brain Wave(2). She was now Merry Pamberton King and had a son. Various incidents, possibly including Brain Wave being sent to prison, had her suffer a mental breakdown and fake her own death to reappear later. It’s also possible this is a new character that Morrison gave the same last name to as a tip of the hat to stories past.

Boy Blue and Dyno-Mite Dan are new characters in the veins of Little Boy Blue and TNT and his sidekick Dan the Dyna-Mite.

The power of the number 7.
“There were seven champions of Christendom, seven spirits at the throne of god, seven virtues, seven sins, seven sleepers, seven wise masters…It’s kind of unlucky that there are only six of us.”-Dyno-Mite Dan.

The skull that appears on the cover and in a single panel of the comic may represent death. Or failure.

The seventh soldier who was to appear is still unaccounted for. Speculation that it was the original Shining Knight is popular at the moment.

Neh-Buh-Loh is a reference to the old Seven Soldiers villain Nebula Man.

What is the TIME-SEWING MACHINE?

Is the word Sheeda derived from Sidhe (pronounced "Shee," possibly) of Irish myth and legend. The Sidhe were not straightforward creatures of destruction and decay. They were a pretty complex group, actually, and often acted in benevolent ways towards heroes like Cu Chulainn(Irish warrior).

Who died in the final confrontation of the story?


Shining Knight #1
Art by Simone Bianchi & Nathan Eyring
Characters: Sir Justin, Vanguard the Horse, Sheeda Queen GlorianaTenebrae, Gawain, Lancelot, Caradoc, Bors, Peredur, Galahad, Arthur, Olwen, Neh-Buh-Loh
Summary: In the story The Last of Camelot we’re introduced to the Knights of the Broken Table. The knights are in battle with the Sheeda but fall one by one. The teenager Sir Justin and his flying horse Vanguard make it into Castle Revolving searching for the Cauldron of Youth. There he battles a dead King Arthur under the power of the Sheeda. Justin than battles the Sheeda queen and takes back Arthurs sword. He tosses the Cauldron into a green liquid that flows through time. Vanguard and Justin escape through the liquid out of castle revolving to end up in Los Angeles present day. There Vanguard is injured as he hits the ground and cops arrest Justin.

Things of Note
The opening sequence, the fall of Camelot, parallels that of Jack Kirbys Demon #1.

The knights and king can each represent, roughly, the big 7 of the Justice League.
Lancelot is Superman
Gawain is Batman
Caradoc is Martian Manhunter
Peredur is Wonder Woman
Bors is Flash
Galahad is Green Lantern
King Arthur is Arthur

Castle Revolving is likely a contemporary version of Caer Sidi, the castle of the goddess Arianrhod, which sat at the hub of the "Silver Wheel" in Annwn, the Welsh underworld. It was also called the Castle of Glass, which links it to Ynis Witrin, the Isle of Glass (aka Avalon, and possibly Glastonbury).

Cauldron of Youth also referred to as the Inexhaustible Cauldron.
“It sang once in Murias, at the Mighty Dagda’s table. It brings the dead to life and heals all wounds.”-Sir Justin
The Dagda was an Irish god, the chief of the gods, who dragged about a cauldron that could never be emptied. The cauldron was one of 4 Irish treasures.

Olwen- Olwen is the daughter of a giant in the Welsh folktale.

This first issue Shining Knight may be based heavily on Preiddu Annwn (or Annwfn, or Annwvyn), in which Arthur and his knight appear to storm Caer Sidi and steal the Cauldron.

What’s Justin speaking in the end of the issue? Possibly Welsh. Check out www.barbelith.com (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers) for more in depth info.


Manhattan Guardian #1
Art by Cameron Stewart & moose Baumann
Characters: Jake Jordan, Capt. No-Beard, Soapy, Larry, Lauren, Carla, Mr. Ed Stargard, Newsboy Army, Capt. All-Beard
Summary:Pirates of Manhattan has two factions of subway pirates battling over a map that documents the ultimate treasure. All the while ex-cop Jake Jordan slips deeper into depression. His girlfriends father, Larry, gives him a job advertisement for the newspaper the Manhattan Guardian looking to have their own in house superhero. Jake applies and pass the test to become their living masthead. His first adventure follows chasing down subway pirates who just kidnapped his girlfriend, Carla.

Things of Note
All Beard = Alan Moore?
No Beard = Morrison?

The newspaper=reality in which we may choose to participate
The Guardian=saviour avatar
The Legion=angels/disciples
The pirates=Legion (i.e. demons that need to be exorcised)
God=disembodied editor living on the 23rd floor of change (I Ching and Chaos Magic).

Morrison mimics Kirby's writing style in the four captions "Suddenly the sputtering barks ... Worm Almighty”

Reference to Mr. Miracle planning to escape from an artificially created black hole.

No mention or sight of anything Sheeda related.


Zatanna #1
Art by Ryan Sook, Mick Gray & Nathan Eyring
Characters: Zatanna Zatara, Giovanni Zatara, Gimmix, Etta Candy(unnamed), Mind Grabber Kid(unnamed) , 4 unnamed individuals in Therepy group(two males, one “ghost”, one 75 year old woman), Baron Winter, Timothy Ravenwind, Ibis/Mr. Invincible, Taia, Dr. 13, King Ra-Man, Gwydion, Misty
Summary: Talking Backwards finds JLA member Zatanna attending a workshop for suepr heroes with low self esteem. In this group she talks about her father Giovanni Zatara and how wisely he sued his magic powers. Than speaks about who she lost her powers when she and a group of wizards gathered in a magical house to form a séance so they can “journey” into a magical realm. They were brought together by shared dreams of “… little people from under the hill, locust armites with tiny riders, a queen on an eight legged horse.” Their journey takes them to where “All the books that were ever written in anyone’s head,” as Zatanna searches out her fathers four books she comes in contact with the demon Gwydion who murders her friends but leaves her alive. Gwydion was created by Zatanna when she wished for her perfect mate and now her friends are dead and she’s lost her own magical powers. Zatanna is approached at the end of the workshop by a teenage girl named Misty who wants to become her apprentice.

Things of Note
Rabbits = desire, lust.

Gwydion=In the Mabinogion he's a great warrior/magician, a shape-shifter, and a trickster-figure. He figures prominently in the story "Math, Son of Mathonwy."

Sidhe(the word which maybe the basis of Sheeda) is Irish which has its mythology crossover with Welsh where Gwydion of Zatannas mini comes from.

Ibis and Taia were both Fawcett characters, displaced through time from 12th Century BC Egypt.

Timothy Ravenwind has apparently been around since 1973, and was used in the Morrison/Miller Swamp Thing.

There have been mentions of comparisons to Promethea because of the interreality journey through magic featured in the issue.

Possible references to various magicks. Possibly even Chaos magic which Grant Morrison performs.

This issue takes place before Seven Soldiers Special #0.


Klarion the Witch Boy #1
Art by Frazer Irving
Characters: Klarion, Teekl the Cat, Beulah, Submissionary Judah, Ezekiel, Klarions Mother
Summary: From This World to That Which Is to Come is the first chapter of Klarion the Witch Boy. In Limbo Town, somewhere beneath the surface world, puritan witches live. There the dead awaken as Grundys to be put as slaves by the people. Here Klarion grows restless and defiant wanting to leave this place. The town is under the influence of the Submissionary which is controlled by Judah. They’re god is named Croatoan, the Witch-God When a Sheeda locust is discovered he calls upon sealing the Wicket Gate. However this comes around the time Brother Ezekiel of the parliament plans to leave Limbo Town to further trade with the Trolley Men. Three Submissionarys become the demon Horigal and kill Ezekiel as Klarion seeks to warn him.

Things of Note
Klarion was originally created by Jack Kirby in the original Demon series.

Croatoan=Possibly related to a lost colony of Roanole Island off the coast of North Carolina. There 117 settlers went missing. Info Here (http://www.coastalguide.com/packet/lostcolony01.htm ) on the Cittie of Raleigh deserted, plundered, and surrounded "with a high pallisado of great trees, with cortynes and flankers, very fort-like". On one of the palisades, he found the single word "CROATOAN" carved into the surface, and the letters "CRO" carved into a nearby tree.

The Submissionaires state, in believing the Sheeda are coming: "If Sheeda return, we will be retired from duty, deleted. After such long and faithful service our purpose will be at an end."
One CBR forum poster stated the following in regards to this: If we think of the series as one more prefiguration of the End Times (booga booga), and the Sheeda as the new version of The Archons or every other Great Beast from Beyond, then the Submissionaries are debased religion, serving the purposes of Yog-Sothoth (or whomever); i.e. they're there to keep humanity down. Quite why the Sheeda would bank on one small group of crazy Puritan witches is another matter. Perhaps we're to extrapolate that they're also running the Ayatollahs and the Cardinals. (who wants to google all those words? I don’t.)

Various other explorations into religion we could possibly get into but I’m sure my head would explode trying.

Next weekend I'll do all the second issues. Right now, I need a tylenol.

Next Chapter Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1157398#post1157398)

[No1insight]

Awesome guide :D Especially with SK, which I could not understand for the life of me. The Justice League/Knights comparisson is very interesting.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by No1insight
Awesome guide :D Especially with SK, which I could not understand for the life of me. The Justice League/Knights comparisson is very interesting.

Got that from barbelith.com as well.

Notice that because Arthur is a king he doesn't count as a soldier, thus six soldiers battling the sheeda. One could argue Wonder Woman as well but seeing as shes considered an amazon warrior and in current continutiy is no longer a princess, she counts as a soldier.

Of course, peredeur is blind which is how that comaprion relaly worked since Diana was blind at the time as well.

Head hurts again...

[BillReed]

Originally posted by No1insight
Awesome guide :D Especially with SK, which I could not understand for the life of me. The Justice League/Knights comparisson is very interesting.

Ha ha ha! If he's pulling this off the Barbelith wiki, I'm the one that came up with that. I mean, King Arthur had an orange scaly shirt on, man!

And the Sheeda seem to be using Green Lantern technology to attack Camelot...

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by BillReed
Ha ha ha! If he's pulling this off the Barbelith wiki, I'm the one that came up with that. I mean, King Arthur had an orange scaly shirt on, man!

And the Sheeda seem to be using Green Lantern technology to attack Camelot...

Actually I discovered barbelith from CBR forums which I mentioend in the beginning. If it was you that came up with that at barbelith I don't know.

Shining Knight so far is the only one I really looked at on that site.

Others are from internet discussion and various(however little) research on my own part.

Just earlier I looked up Roanoke Island which was mentioned in discussion about Klarion and pulled brief info on that.

[BillReed]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Just earlier I looked up Roanoke Island which was mentioned in discussion about Klarion and pulled brief info on that.

Grant's explanation of Croatoan is very nice. And another shot at his 'absent figure' archetype; the thing that is defined by not being there. Like No-Girl, Number None, etc.

[4DGlasses]

You're the f*cking mann, Groovie.

Here's an excerpt from a recent Morrison interview (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=0041 50)

The original Seven Soldiers of Victory were created when the world was embedded in a brutal war. In winter 1941, this heroic group, also known as the Law's Legionnaires, made their debut in Leading Comics # 1. The name "Seven Soldiers" was evocative of the dozens of men and women proudly serving their countries as members of the Allied armed forces. America, much like the rest of the world, needed heroes and something to believe in during those troubled times. The Seven Soldiers of Victory and other colorfully clad heroes of their ilk filled that void nicely.

The group consisted of mostly non-powered heroes: the Star Spangled Kid and Stripesy, Green Arrow and Speedy, Vigilante, Crimson Avenger, and the Shining Knight, who banded together to fight for justice during those turbulent times. The heroes were ones that almost anyone could relate to - just regular men in costumes, (with the exception of Shining Knight who had a winged steed and magical armor), using extraordinary learned skills to take on injustice and evil. On the printed page, four-color, larger than life heroes could fight battles readers were yearning to see. Younger readers could imagine practicing, training, and maybe taking on the world in that fashion ... someday.


Like the Justice Society of America before them, the Seven Soldiers of Victory filled a specific role that the times made relevant. The heroes only had fourteen adventures in their original incarnation, but those battles were memorable. However what - if anything - does this new version of Seven Soldiers encompass or have to do with the originals? How do these new groups of heroes relate to the Golden Age? True, these are turbulent times, but is writer Grant Morrison looking for something today's readers can relate to, or is there another reason he tied those leads together minus the "of Victory" under the Seven Soldiers moniker?

"Originally it had very little to do with them [the first Seven Soldiers of Victory]," Morrison said. "I just liked the name 'Seven Soldiers' and thought it fit my project well. As the story developed, I decided to tie as much as I could into continuity as well, which turned into an insane kind of Geoff Johns/James Robinson strand running through the narrative, which fully integrates my seven soldiers into the history of all the previous characters and reveals an 'Identity Crisis' style secret at the heart of the Golden Age team. Most of that stuff is in Bulleteer issue 2. I also have a new version of the Greg Sanders Vigilante turning up in that story - think High Plains Drifter, and Unforgiven, shake in a little Ghost Rider and bake until Bulleteer # 2 hits the stands. We're also doing the origin of the cosmic character Oracle, from Justice League 100 - 102, the 'Unknown Soldier of Victory' and learn the secret of Earth's first superhero. The whole thing is very deeply rooted in DC history but the connections are hopefully subtle enough that, while long-time fans will appreciate all the Easter Eggs, new readers, who may be picking up their first comic book, will also be able to get a complete and entertaining story that requires no knowledge of old comic books."

[Groovie Mann]

Now you got me wanting to read Bulleteer and of all the 7S projects that was the one that interested me the least.

Of course, being I was looking forward to it the least makes me think I'll like it the best. I mean, Guardians my favorite now and that sue to be my least fav of the four.

[DiscoVietnam]

Great stuff mate, well done.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Now you got me wanting to read Bulleteer and of all the 7S projects that was the one that interested me the least.

I initially felt the same about Klarion, and almost put it back on the shelf. Glad I didn't.

[DiscoVietnam]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
I initially felt the same about Klarion, and almost put it back on the shelf. Glad I didn't.

LOL...now look at you, 7S owns yo AZZ.

:D ;)

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by DiscoVietnam
LOL...now look at you, 7S owns yo AZZ.

:D ;)

Word.

I mean, who the hell thought Klarion could be a cool character? Croatoan the God who wasn't there appeals to that atheist part of me. Ressurecting your grandfathers as Grundys. What's not to like?

[David Bird]

Great stuff! I am glad to see you're going through with this and how well its coming together. I have been meaning to read through all these all over again, starting with the JLA stuff.

I typed up a few thoughts on Roanoke for another thread:

Originally posted by David Bird

Roanoke
There is a certain romance to be had in “lost colonies.” Whether they are a people out of step with the world around them, or a previously unknown civilization altogether, they have been fodder for utopian visions, tales of Atlantis, and lands of the dinosaur. A true lost colony, the English settlement at Roanoke, has been getting a lot of attention in the funny pages lately.

In 100 Bullets the colony was destroyed as a message to the British crown. The Trust, which secretly rules the New World, was displeased that England would set up a colony in defiance of them and sent their Minute Men out to kill all the settlers. The series follows the aftermath of another message the Trust wanted sent. This time the Minute Men said no. In 100 Bullets Roanoke is the first English settlement.

In Marvel 1602 Roanoke is the home of Virginia Dare and the center of a temporal distortion that sees the Marvel Universe reborn 360 years ahead of time, and Captain America, always the man out of time, brought back to the past and this settlement. US history says that Virginia Dare is the first person born in the New World.

Now Roanoke has been brought into the Seven Soldiers story. The new issue of Klarion tells us that the underground community he is from is the remnants of Roanoke. From the preview for Klarion the Witch Boy #3:


We know the Roanoke colonists experienced what you might call an intimate contact, with something not entirely human. We know that when the first of the changelings were born, those god-fearing folk reverted to an older, darker religion. Like monstrous maggots burrowing away from the clean light, they hid their sins deep underground.


Don’t worry, that’s not a spoiler.

What actually happened at Roanoke is a true mystery. England attempted to settle the area twice. An island in North Carolina, it was a part of the Virginia territories. The first attempt was in 1584. This attempt failed because of a drought and deteriorating relations with the locals. Relations were so bad, in fact, that the English killed the local native leader. The second colony started in 1587. Attempts were made to establish better ties to the natives, and one group, the Croatans were friendly. But most were not. And on August 18th little Virginia Dare was indeed born. Things got so bad with the locals, however, that the Governor returned to England to appeal for help. A war with Spain prevented any from getting there for two years. When they arrived the colony was abandoned. The word “Croatoan” was carved in a tree, and the settlers were sought among the Croatans, but they did not know what had happened. We still don’t, though its mosst likely that they were destroyed by one of the hostile native nations.

While the story of Roonoke is an interesting one, the first English colony in the Americas was actually St. John’s, Newfoundland; founded in 1497, it continues to this day. And the oldest city in the US is Saint Augustine, founded in 1565. Given that St. John’s is 90 years older than Roanoke, and Saint Augustine 22 years older, its unlikely that Ms. Dare is really the first person – white person, of course – born in the Americas.

Another bit of trivia, in Irish myth the Sidhe (Shee), or Tuatha De Danaanhad, had four great weapons: a Stone of Destiny, that determined the rightful king; a spear: that made its holder invincible in battle; a sword, that "no one could escape"; and a cauldron, that never emptied.

[Groovie Mann]

Coolness Bird. I totally forgot about 100 Bullets(great series). And I missed that in 1602(had its parts).

[render man]

Yes according to an interview with Grant Morrison done over at the Pulse at comicon.com the Sheeda are a twist on the Sidhe myths/ideas of long ago.
But thanks for the overview, its given me some info I didnt know before.

[David Bird]

Could the dice be the stone of destiny?

[thefellowship12]

cool overview,

Bulleteer sounds like it is going to be very good indeed, does anybody know what the artist is like?

[Punchy]

Groovie Mann is the new Lorendiac! Cool, guide man.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Punchy
Groovie Mann is the new Lorendiac! Cool, guide man.

No-no-no. I'm not trying to get people to switch to all trades. Buy your monthlies folks.

[Outshined_One]

A quick note about the eight-legged horse the Sheeda queen rides: this could be a reference to Ancient Norse/Germanic mythology.

Odin rides an eight legged horse by the name of Sleipnir, which allows him to travel up and down the world tree, Yggdrasil. Essentially, he can move between the lands of the living and the dead by riding on that horse. Also of note is that the horse is the offspring of the trickster god Loki.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Outshined_One
A quick note about the eight-legged horse the Sheeda queen rides: this could be a reference to Ancient Norse/Germanic mythology.

Odin rides an eight legged horse by the name of Sleipnir, which allows him to travel up and down the world tree, Yggdrasil. Essentially, he can move between the lands of the living and the dead by riding on that horse. Also of note is that the horse is the offspring of the trickster god Loki.

Well, when I saw eight legged horse I just thought they refered to the spiders several sheeda so9ldiers have rode.

I do remember Norse myths had 8 legged horses the gods trode on. Only because of FF7.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Outshined_One
A quick note about the eight-legged horse the Sheeda queen rides: this could be a reference to Ancient Norse/Germanic mythology.

Odin rides an eight legged horse by the name of Sleipnir, which allows him to travel up and down the world tree, Yggdrasil. Essentially, he can move between the lands of the living and the dead by riding on that horse. Also of note is that the horse is the offspring of the trickster god Loki.

The fairy queen of the the Sidhe, or Tuatha De Danaanhad, also rode an eight legged horse. And I think a giant spider is a great interpretaion of that.

[Outshined_One]

Originally posted by David Bird
The fairy queen of the the Sidhe, or Tuatha De Danaanhad, also rode an eight legged horse. And I think a giant spider is a great interpretaion of that.

Norse and Gaelic cultures had plenty of contact with one another and it's been pretty well-established that their mythology crosses over with one another a fair amount (heck, people have been trying to tie Loki to Lugh for years). It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this yet was another cultural crossover.

I like the spider interpretation, too.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by thefellowship12
cool overview,

Bulleteer sounds like it is going to be very good indeed, does anybody know what the artist is like?

Scope it:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/bulleteer1.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

[KebEllis]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Scope it:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/bulleteer1.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com"> Boob-eteer :)

Mr. Miracle comes out next week. I have yet to read the conclusions to Guardian and Shining Knight. Gotta get some comics soon.

[Groovie Mann]

just bumping the thread and my post count.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
just bumping the thread and my post count.

No worries - a good thread.

[BillReed]

Originally posted by KebEllis
Mr. Miracle comes out next week. I have yet to read the conclusions to Guardian and Shining Knight. Gotta get some comics soon.

Guardian #4 may be my favorite issue of the whole mega-series to date. Each successive issue keeps trying to top the previous one in gloriousness.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by BillReed
Guardian #4 may be my favorite issue of the whole mega-series to date. Each successive issue keeps trying to top the previous one in gloriousness.

guardian #4 definitly was the best thus far.

[Doc Holiday]

I love that you are doing this, G-man. When you do the second issues, will you attempt to point out all the connections among all the issues? That's what I am most interested in.

Thanks for your work.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
I love that you are doing this, G-man. When you do the second issues, will you attempt to point out all the connections among all the issues? That's what I am most interested in.

Thanks for your work.

definitly. i'm actually rereading each issue and then checking all the ntoes i've scquired before writing down the info.

also pointing out the cast because certain people show up here and there.

[Groovie Mann]

working on the next segment, head hurts big time. should be done tomorrow.

s. knight #2
m. guardian #2
zatanna 32
klarion #2

plus stuff on the number 7

[Groovie Mann]

The Power of the Number 7

Chakra: The word chakra is Sanskrit for wheel or disk and signifies one of seven basic energy centers in the body. Each of these centers correlates to major nerve ganglia branching forth from the spinal column. In addition the chakras also correlate to levels of consciousness, archetypal elements, developmental stages of life, colors, sounds, body functions, and much, much more.
More info at here (http://www.sacredcenters.com/chakras.html)

Chakra 1: Earth, Physical identity, oriented to self-preservation
Located at the base of the spine, this chakra forms our foundation. It represents the element earth, and is therefore related to our survival instincts, and to our sense of grounding and connection to our bodies and the physical plane. Ideally this chakra brings us health, prosperity, security, and dynamic presence.

Chakra 2: Water, Emotional identity, oriented to self-gratification
The second chakra, located in the abdomen, lower back, and sexual organs, is related to the element water, and to emotions and sexuality. It connects us to others through feeling, desire, sensation, and movement. Ideally this chakra brings us fluidity and grace, depth of feeling, sexual fulfillment, and the ability to accept change.

Chakra 3: Fire, Ego identity, oriented to self-definition
This chakra is known as the power chakra, located in the solar plexus. It rules our personal power, will, and autonomy, as well as our metabolism. When healthy, this chakra brings us energy, effectiveness, spontaneity, and non-dominating power.

Chakra 4: Air, Social identity, oriented to self-acceptance
This chakra is called the heart chakra and is the middle chakra in a system of seven. It is related to love and is the integrator of opposites in the psyche: mind and body, male and female, persona and shadow, ego and unity. A healthy fourth chakra allows us to love deeply, feel compassion, have a deep sense of peace and centeredness

Chakra 5: Sound, Creative identity, oriented to self-expression
This is the chakra located in the throat and is thus related to communication and creativity. Here we experience the world symbolically through vibration, such as the vibration of sound representing language.

Chakra 6: Light, Archetypal identity, oriented to self-reflection
This chakra is known as the brow chakra or third eye center. It is related to the act of seeing, both physically and intuitively. As such it opens our psychic faculties and our understanding of archetypal levels. When healthy it allows us to see clearly, in effect, letting us "see the big picture."

Chakra 7: Thought, Universal identity, oriented to self-knowledge
This is the crown chakra that relates to consciousness as pure awareness. It is our connection to the greater world beyond, to a timeless, spaceless place of all-knowing. When developed, this chakra brings us knowledge, wisdom, understanding, spiritual connection, and bliss.


7 Virtues/Sins
7) Jealousy/Generosity
6) Pride/Humility
5) Envy/Love (Charity)
4) Sloth/Zeal
3) Anger/Kindness
2) Lust/Self-Control
1) Gluttony/Faith and Temperance

In folk stories and legends the number would seem to express the seven stages of matter, the seven degrees of awareness and the seven stages of evolution:

awareness of the physical body: cravings satisfied simply and brutally
awareness of the emotions; impulses become more complex through feeling and imagination
awareness of intellect; the individual classifies, arranges and reasons
awareness of intuition; relationship with the unconscious becomes apparent
awareness of spirituality; detachment from worldly things
awareness of will; thought is transmitted into action
awareness of life; directing action towards eternal life and salvation.


Shining Knight #2
Art by Simone Bianchi & Dave Stewart
Characters: Justin, Guilt, Crazyface, Vanguard/Horsefeathers, Don Vincenzo, Strato, Ali Ka-Zoom(cameo/unnamed), Neh-Buh-Loh
Summary: Mood 7 Mind Destroyer opens as Justin fights and gets away from the LAPD. He then finds himself lost in Los Angeles, 2005 confused at the events that transpired and the ending to the war with the Sheeda 10,000 years in the past. On his wanderings he finds himself confronted by Guilt, a mood 7 mind destroyer sent to make Justin kill himself. While this goes o the undying don, Vincenzo and his men are given Vanguard by police officer that are under they’re employ. His time with Vanguard(who he renames Horsefeathers, is short as Neh-Buh-Loh ledas his men to attack the Dons home. Justin meanwhiles overcomes his guilt and defends a homeless man from a coupe of punks. That homeless man is Al -Kaz-Zoom

Things of Note
The poster on page 6, panel 3 reads "Cup of Blood: A Spy, A Mermaid, and a Treasure As Old As Time Itself." 'Cup of Blood,' which evokes the Holy Grail, which may connect to the Cauldron from Shining Knight #1. Room for speculation here regarding the nature of the Grail, the Grail Quest, and its Celtic antecedents (i.e. the Daghda's cauldron).

Look up Spenser's Faerie Queen about the Red Cross Knight facing Despair.

In connection to the Castle Revolving which appeared in the first issue and mention a few times here.

Spoils of Annwn

Preiddu Annwfn
From the Book of Taliesin
Collated by Charles Squire from translations by Skene, Stephens, Nash and Rhys.
here (http://www.mythiccrossroads.com/annwn.htm)


I will praise the Sovereign, supreme Lord of the land,
Who hath extended his dominion over the shore of the world.
Stout was the prison of Gweir1, in Caer Sidi,
Through the Spite of Pwyll and Pryderi:
No one before him went into it.
The heavy blue chain firmly held the youth,
And before the spoils of Annwn woefully he sang,
And thenceforth till doom he shall remain a bard.
Thrice enough to fill Prydwen2 we went into it;
Except seven, none returned from Caer Sidi3.

Am I not a candidate for fame, to be heard in song
In Caer Pedryvan4, for times revolving?
The first word from the cauldron, when was it spoken?
By the breath of nine maidens it was gently warmed.
Is it not the cauldron of the chief of Annwn? What is its fashion?
A rim of pearls is round its edge.
It will not cook the food of a coward or one foresworn.
A sword flashing bright will be raised to him,
And left in the hand of Lleminawg.
And before the door of the gate of Uffern5 the lamp was burning.
When we went with Arthur - a splendid labour! -
Except seven, none returned from Caer Vedwyd6.

Am I not a candidate for fame, to be heard in song
In Caer Pedryvan, in the Isle of the Strong Door,
Where twilight and pitchy darkness meet together,
And bright wine is the drink of the host?
Thrice enough to fill Prydwen we went into the sea.
Except seven, none returned from Caer Rigor7.

I will not allow much praise to the leaders of literature.
Beyond Caer Wydyr8 they saw not the prowess of Arthur;
Three-score hundreds stood on the walls;
It was hard to converse with their watchman.
Thrice enough to fill Prydwen we went with Arthur;
Except seven, none returned from Caer Golud9.

I will not allow much praise to the spiritless.
They know not on what day, or who caused it,
Or in what hour of the serene day Cwy was born,
Or who caused that he should not go to the dales of Devwy.
They know not the brindled ox with the broad headband,
Whose yoke is seven-score handbreadths.
When we went with Arthur, of mournful memory,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Vandwy10.

I will not allow much praise to those of drooping courage
They know not on what day the chief arose,
Nor in what hour of the serene day the owner was born,
Nor what animal they keep, with its head of silver.
When we went with Arthur, of anxious striving,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Ochren11.

NOTES:
1: A form of the name Gwydion
2: The name of Arthur's ship
3: Revolving Castle
4: Four-cornered castle
5: The Cold Place
6: Castle of Revelry.
7: Kingly Castle
8: Glass Castle
9: Castle of Riches
10: Meaning is unknown
11: Meaning is unknown

Caer Sidhe translates to Castle of the Sidhe(Sheeda)


Possible referencing of the epic set of poems the Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser based on the comparisons of Guilt to battling Sir Justin to Despayre(Despair) battling the Faeire Queens main character the Knight Redcrosse.
More on the subject at www.sparksnotes.com/poetry/fqueen/ (http://www.sparksnotes.com/poetry/fqueen/)

Ali Ka-Zoom makes a cameo and catches the bus. Appears in Zatanna.

The Don has the Cauldron.


Manhattan Guardian #2
Art by Cameron Stewart & Moose Baumann
Characters: Jake Jordan, Carla Marcus, Capt. No-Beard, Capt. All Beard, Mr. Ed Stargard, Fiths With Chains, Jenny Greenteeth, Hands
Summary: Homeless Superior finds Jake Jordan/Guardian teaming with Capt. No-Beard and his crew of the Clinton to rescue his girlfriend Carla from the clutches of Capt. All-Beard. The two pirate captains fighting over a mystical treasure which turns out to be a six sided dice(of six sided god machine as its called in the story).

Things of Note
Refernce to Klarions witch-people: “… they told tales of underground markets where puritan kiddie-snatchers from hell came to trade with talking rats.”
Back in Klarion you may remember the sequence between Ezekiel and Klarion where the following was mentioned as a reference to the setting of Guardian: “There's not much to see beyond High Market, just tunnels and rails and stone and more tunnels.”


The theme of guilt continues. Jordan still for the death of the 13 year old kid referenced in issue 1 and now for leaving his girlfriends father as he laid dying(to rescue her of course).

The demon Horigal from issue #1 of Klarion is seen in this issue showing it cross paths further with Guardian.

Post off CBR forums about the pirates and what they could possibly represent: “After further reflection on the All-Beard/No-Beard/False-Beard trinity, I'm starting to think there was another layer there: the big difference between All-Beard and No-Beard is All-Beard's poetic, visionary language and the lack thereof in No-Beard, who is relatively straightforward in his speech. Couple this with the naming of his train as the President Clinton; the two best known attributes of Clinton in the popular mind are his status as leader of the world's only remaining super-power and his penchent for chasing women: so, material, worldly power and physical, worldly pleasure. Is the contrast between a materialist No-Beard and a visionary All-Beard? At the next layer down, though, I think there is the identity between the two I talked about earlier: they are both pirate kings (violent, predatory, unlawful authority), both on a mistaken quest, both False-Beards, representing false promises of power [or, perhaps better, fulfillment].”

Then again, one CBR poster had this to say on the subject: [I]“If that interpretation of the 'All-Beard/No-Beard', metaphor is true, than it's very flattering to Morrison. He comes off as a result as the rebel, whereas Moore is the traditionalist, the stodgy 'bearded', authority figure. Which frankly is fairly suspect. Morrison early on identified Moore as the 'other chaos mage'. I remember a fawning e-mail that was prominently displayed on his website, asking if Morrison could introduce the person in question to Moore. This provided Morrison with just the opportunity to play up this rivalry/resentment between the elder figure and this young turk from Glasgow!

It was a bit much. After all Morrison uses chaos magick not only as a lifestyle, but as another method of self-promotion. That's business as usual on planet Morrison, but the lectures on magick he delivers adds an extra layer of exoticism to the persona he presents through the media. Moore if anything seems to be quite private with his 'studies'. It's more of a literary puzzle to him almost, an unveiling. He uses it to fuel his stories and whole sections of Promethea did double as a lecture.

All-Beard/No-Beard should be read I think as a more generalized metaphor between the 'old' and the 'new', past and future. But I don't see either Morrison or Moore as representing either of these positions, as they merely use magick in different ways, personal explorations more than any particular world view.”

"God doesn't play dice" -- Einstein.
“Does so too" /chrodinger.
"Any God worth his salt uses 20-sided dice" -- Steve Jackson

From my understanding Cameron Stewart, who dropped by Barbelith, pointed out a major difference in Morrisons script and the final project. Morrison's script didn't call for No-Beard to win, and that you weren't supposed to be able to tell whether the zombie in the last panel was No-Beard or All-Beard.

No Sheeda sightings or mentioning.


Zatanna #2
Written by Grant Morrison
Art by Ryan Sook, Mick Gray, & Nathan Eyring
Characters: Zatanna, Misty Kilgore, Gwydion, Cassandra Craft, Prowley the cat, Ali Ka-Zoom?(cameo), Phantom Stranger(cameo)
Summary: A Book in the Beginning has Zatanna being accompanied by her apprentice Misty heading to a magic store owned by Cassandra Craft. There Zatanna prepares for battle with Gwydion who people are referring to as the shapeless one. There she also learns about a mysterious man whose come seeking her and finds Ali Ka-Zooms cabinet.

Things of Note
Six-sided dice, same one from Guardian? And if so, how did Misty get it?

Dyna-Mite rings were sold by Cassandra Craft, reference to Seven Soldiers Special #0

Zatara leaves his hat at Cassandras store and says “Tell her. Tell her I came back for the books.” Is it Zatara whose known to be dead in the DCU? The hat matches the one he wore in the flashback in Zatanna #1.

I should point out that since the get go there’s been speculation about who Misty is. “… some kind of familiar or homunculus inadvertantly created by Zee.”

Remember me talking about chakra? Cassandra mentions it in issue 2.

Strange gang of hero kids…. Ali Ka-Zoom the Merlin of the ghetto… Newsboy army. References Guardian and hints a connection between the events in Zatanna and Guardian. Also Ali Ka-Zoom was in Los Angeles and met Shining Knight so with Zatanna #2 we have the a foundation for the connections in the books.

Page 12, final couple panels with the Zatanna autobiography Mitsys looking at, the poem there references or is a part of Cad Goddeau. I’d put the poem up but it is extremely long. So here’s the link instead. here (http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/.../cad_goddeu.htm)

But since I’m nice, the first part.
I have been a mulitude of shapes,
Before I assumed a consistant form.
I have been a sword, narrow, variegated,
I will believe when it is apparent.
I have been a tear in the air,
I have been in the dullest of stars.
I have been a word among letters,
I have been a book in the origin.
I have been the light of lanterns,
A year and a half.
I have been a continuing bridge,
Over three score river-mouths.
I have been a course, I have been an eagle.
I have been a coracle in the sea.
I have been complaint in the banquet.
I have been a drop in a shower;
I have been a sword in the grasp of a hand.
I have been a shield in battle.
I have been a string in a harp,
Disguised for nine years.
In water, in foam,
I have been a sponge in fire,
I have been wood in covert.


Klarion the Witch Boy #2
Art by Frazer Irving
Characters: Klarion, Teekl, Horigal, Ebeneezer Badde, Leviathan, Trio of underworld ddwellers, rat kings, Mister Melmoth
Summary: Badde finds Klarion receiving help from the Horigal monster by his own wits, luck, and a man named Ebeneezer Badde. Badde, an escapee of Limbo Town himself shows Klarion the Croatoan and explains that their gods are simply false. Badde takes Klarion to some individuals who goal is to trap the boy and sell him for a price. Klarion, with his cat Teekl, summon the human monster Leviathan. Klarion finally makes it to “blue rafters” and there is greeted by Mister Melmoth.

Things of Note
Never read the Bible but lucky me someone has and has brought up some interesting tidbits in their view to issue 2 of Klarion: The very first page, where the Horigal says "Ye broke the Law!" and "Ye shall be judged!" to me went a step beyond confirming what we'd all already noticed - that the Submissionaries represented authoritarian organized religion. It and subsequent pronouncements from the Horigal immediately evoked for me the Old Testament as opposed to the New testament. The clincher is when the Horigal rants "Ye have no advocate! There is no redemption!" since redemption is exactly what Jesus brought to humanity (or at least that part of it lucky enough to hear his message) according to Christian doctrine. The missing advocate would be a Jesus figure.

However, right after that statement from the Horigal (stand-in for the vindictive an wrathful god of the Old Testament?), Klarion is in fact saved by Ebeneezer Badde, so maybe we do have our Jesus figure. But, if so, what a comment on Christianity: Badde sells Klarion to unknown forces who have a literal, physical cage all prepared for him. So the "redemption" offered by the New Testament merely leads to a differnt kind of bondage. That Klarion is sold into this bondage by his Badde saviour is a very fair comment on the entire nature of Christian doctrine IMO: the very word "redemption" itself has implications of the buying and selling of slaves - something glossed over all too often (check out William Empson's 'Milton's God' for more on this idea). I grant that I may be projecting my own feelings onto Morrison's story here once again, though.

In another twist, Ebeneezer (like his Dickensian namesake?) has a last-minute change of heart and tries to save Klarion again, this time from his (Badde's) own betrayal. It looks like he was killed by Leviathan, but I hope Badde survives; good character.

Bur there's another way of looking at Badde, one which appears to conrtradict everything I just said above: his general attitude and several of his specific lines mark him as a man who has lost faith in anything beyond the immediate material world he can perceive thorugh his senses and in any goal beyond crass gratification of his physical needs/desires. I'm thinking of his bounty of porno books and booze
for delivering Klarion, lines like "why bother with gods and heroes at all?" and of course his statement about the absent, i.e. non-existent, god Croatoan.

But Klarion, right before that statment of Badde's, shows that he has the opposite view: ""I've always felt that ... well, he [Klarion's real father] was still alive somewhere. Perhaps he reached Blue Rafters and dwells there where I will find him." In other words, 'Our Father, Who art in Heaven, ...'. The fact that Badde's response to this speech of Klarion's is "You're all alone." (i.e. there is no father, no Father, no Croatoan, no God) reinforces what I said in the paragraph above.

Ebeneezer Badde: “You have the look of Limbo Town- The Sheeda face.” The Witch people are descendents of the Sheeda in some way.

Name Ebeneezer(Ebenezer) comes from Hebrew meaning the helping rock(?).

Klarions fathers name is Mordeci and he apparently disappered years ago. Klarion believes him alive in “Blue Rafters.”

Badde: “Maybe there was a god here once but he’s long, long gone. He escaped and left us on here alone. Only his dreadful chains remain.” Reference to Loki who was chained up underground with poison dripping on him(the toxic waste around the treasure as seen in Guardian #2). If so that would mean the beginning stages of Ragnarok. Then again, you can always count on other religions/mythologies to have gods or deities chained under earth in some torture.

The location of the treasure in Guardian #2 is the House of Croatoan where Witch-Men came to be initiated. Here Klarion retrieves the dice where dozens of dead subway pirates sit.

King Rat was a villain in the British pantomine Dick
Whittington. here (http://www.eslcafe.com/ideas/sefer.cgi?display:963985064-8136.txt)


Charles Robert Maturin’s Melmoth the Wanderer
(1820)/Gothic literature

The publication of Charles' Maturin's Melmoth the Wanderer in 1820 is the last of what some critics have called the Classic Gothic novel and for others marks the end of the true Gothic novel. His forte is showing character under extreme conditions, both psychologically and physically; Melmoth has sold his soul to the devil to live another one hundred fifty years, with an out, if he can only find someone else to take his place.

Chapter 3 (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1184867#post1184867)

[David Bird]

Looks good (though I don't have time to read through it right now). I can give you some more stuff on seven later, but I thought I'd bring something to your attention.

7 Virtues/Sins
7) Jealousy/Generosity
6) Pride/Humility
5) Envy/Love (Charity)
4) Sloth/Zeal
3) Anger/Kindness
2) Lust/Self-Control
1) Gluttony/Faith and Temperance

Your title is Virtues/Sins, but the list is sins/virtues. Of course, it could be your personal list.
;) :D

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by David Bird
Looks good (though I don't have time to read through it right now). I can give you some more stuff on seven later, but I thought I'd bring something to your attention.



Your title is Virtues/Sins, but the list is sins/virtues. Of course, it could be your personal list.
;) :D

yeah, i try to be different.

you know, going through this again... made me realize i didn't actually notice zatara in issue 2 of zatanna. i went back and checked issue 1 to look at his hat and if its not him, he has the same hat.

wonder if this mean zataras back from the dead.

[KebEllis]

I just read the final Shining Knight and Guardian issues. They were great, especially Guardian (which is awesome now!) and wow, I can't wait for the #1 issue.

And Groovie Mann, are you putting this stuff up on a website? I like it.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by KebEllis
I just read the final Shining Knight and Guardian issues. They were great, especially Guardian (which is awesome now!) and wow, I can't wait for the #1 issue.

And Groovie Mann, are you putting this stuff up on a website? I like it.

i could probably design a small site for it. but i'll worry about that later becauise, well, i just deleted a ton of html on some geocities and thats means i'd have to relearn how to put it together.

ph, and guardian #4 was rgeat. i use to not like that one but 3-4 really turned it into my favorite in the set so far.

[Groovie Mann]

bump for 7S love.

[Banana_Oil]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses


"Originally it had very little to do with them [the first Seven Soldiers of Victory]," Morrison said. "I just liked the name 'Seven Soldiers' and thought it fit my project well. As the story developed, I decided to tie as much as I could into continuity as well, which turned into an insane kind of Geoff Johns/James Robinson strand running through the narrative, which fully integrates my seven soldiers into the history of all the previous characters and reveals an 'Identity Crisis' style secret at the heart of the Golden Age team. Most of that stuff is in Bulleteer issue 2. I also have a new version of the Greg Sanders Vigilante turning up in that story - think High Plains Drifter, and Unforgiven, shake in a little Ghost Rider and bake until Bulleteer # 2 hits the stands. We're also doing the origin of the cosmic character Oracle, from Justice League 100 - 102, the 'Unknown Soldier of Victory' and learn the secret of Earth's first superhero. The whole thing is very deeply rooted in DC history but the connections are hopefully subtle enough that, while long-time fans will appreciate all the Easter Eggs, new readers, who may be picking up their first comic book, will also be able to get a complete and entertaining story that requires no knowledge of old comic books."

A-ha. I'm glad he's not quite done with Greg Sanders*. And I'm glad he remembers the original Oracle--DC is very short on the kind of Big Cosmic Entities that Marvel has in spades. Whatever next--a comeback for The Council of Sentient Suns?


*My prediction: "Ah operate outside th' law--OF PHYSICS, pardnuh!"

[HowAreWeToLive]

Thanks for this.

[rodolfo leon]

just finished reading The Manhattan Guardian #4 and my brain exploded. :eek:

[DiscoVietnam]

Originally posted by rodolfo leon
just finished reading The Manhattan Guardian #4 and my brain exploded. :eek:

Awesome, eh? Although I'm still not sure how you managed to type that sentence...

[rodolfo leon]

Originally posted by DiscoVietnam
Awesome, eh? Although I'm still not sure how you managed to type that sentence...

hey man, i've been reading Morrison for some years now. i kinda guessed i had to carry a spare brain after a near-miss while reading the Mystery Play's crossword puzzle scene.

[Banana_Oil]

re: Mind-Grabber Kid.

MGK is a very powerful psychic who made only one appearance (Justice League of America #70). He swore one day he'd be a real superhero.

[AndrewHickey]

"Guilt, a mood 7 mind destroyer sent to make Justin kill himself. "
This is actually a personification of Justin's own guilt - according to an interview with Morrison which I can't remember where I read it, Justin is from a time when the corpus callossum was thinner than it is now, and communication between the spheres of the brain was often hallucinatory.
This of course raises the question of whether there was guilt at all before the fall of Camelot - was guilt invented by the Sheeda, and was the original Camelot in (literally) a prelapsarian state of innocence? Fall of Camelot as a metaphor/analogue/isomorphism of/to the Biblical fall?

BTW was I the only person who thought that the 'Zatarra on Letterman' segment was misplaced in Zatanna #1? It should obviously come between Zatanna reminscing and the woman saying "Oh, I remember you! You were so cute!" (paraphrased as I've lent my 7 Soldiers stuff to a friend)

Ebeneezer Badde is a reference to the song by the Shamen, Ebeneezer Goode

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
"Guilt, a mood 7 mind destroyer sent to make Justin kill himself. "
This is actually a personification of Justin's own guilt - according to an interview with Morrison which I can't remember where I read it, Justin is from a time when the corpus callossum was thinner than it is now, and communication between the spheres of the brain was often hallucinatory.
This of course raises the question of whether there was guilt at all before the fall of Camelot - was guilt invented by the Sheeda, and was the original Camelot in (literally) a prelapsarian state of innocence? Fall of Camelot as a metaphor/analogue/isomorphism of/to the Biblical fall?

BTW was I the only person who thought that the 'Zatarra on Letterman' segment was misplaced in Zatanna #1? It should obviously come between Zatanna reminscing and the woman saying "Oh, I remember you! You were so cute!" (paraphrased as I've lent my 7 Soldiers stuff to a friend)

Ebeneezer Badde is a reference to the song by the Shamen, Ebeneezer Goode

thanks for all the info. didn't know about the song. as for guilt, i assumed he was trying to make justin kill himself.

[4DGlasses]

Lots of great stuff Groovie. Your research and info swapping is GREATLY appreciated.

Mister Miracle #1 tomorrow! How does Kirby's Fourth World tie into 7S???

[BillReed]

The Sheeda are from The First World, aren't they?

[rodolfo leon]

Originally posted by BillReed
The Sheeda are from The First World, aren't they?

i would like to think so, but i kinda got this silly feeling they're from the future... no, really! it was something the Queen said in Shining Knight #3.

anyways. i'm probably dead wrong. :p

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by rodolfo leon
i would like to think so, but i kinda got this silly feeling they're from the future... no, really! it was something the Queen said in Shining Knight #3.

anyways. i'm probably dead wrong. :p

Well, we know that *Neh-bul-oh* is from the future - to be more precise Neh-bul-oh is *our universe* in the future...

[Groovie Mann]

bump, going tot ry and update this tonight but mroe likely tomorrow or sunday.

[KebEllis]

Did anyone pick up Mr. Miracle #1? If yes, how was it?

I won't be getting it until next week, so don't spoil it for me.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by KebEllis
Did anyone pick up Mr. Miracle #1? If yes, how was it?

I won't be getting it until next week, so don't spoil it for me.

my review at PBR (http://paperbackreader.com/review.php?ReviewID=939)

[KebEllis]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
my review at PBR (http://paperbackreader.com/review.php?ReviewID=939) heh, thanks.

[Trachman]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Got that from barbelith.com as well.

Notice that because Arthur is a king he doesn't count as a soldier, thus six soldiers battling the sheeda. One could argue Wonder Woman as well but seeing as shes considered an amazon warrior and in current continutiy is no longer a princess, she counts as a soldier.

Of course, peredeur is blind which is how that comaprion relaly worked since Diana was blind at the time as well.

Head hurts again... Are they coming out with a trade to this series.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Trachman
Are they coming out with a trade to this series.

nothing annoucned yet and i doubt we'll ehar anything until around the ending of the series.

[KebEllis]

Originally posted by Trachman
Are they coming out with a trade to this series. Yeah, they'll be out soon enough. This is DC's "other mega-crossover" ;)

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by KebEllis
Did anyone pick up Mr. Miracle #1? If yes, how was it?

I won't be getting it until next week, so don't spoil it for me.

Not as good as the other series - less happening in it compared to the other #1s. VERY strong art, and still better than most things out there. LOTS of New Gods/Fourth World stuff. Still very interesting, but more 'decompressed' feeling than the other first issues.
Not meant to be a knock on the issue - if I didn't have such high expectations of 7 Soldiers I'd be praising it to the skies - it's just that this is merely very, very, very good, and I've come to expect superlative from this series.

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by Trachman
Are they coming out with a trade to this series.

Almost certainly, but 7 Soldiers is not something you should read in trade format. More than any other comic I've read recently, it's designed to be read as single issues, in the order in which they come out. You'd totally miss the interconnections if you read, say, all of Shining Knight then all of Klarion, or whatever...
Plus it's an odd one to collect into trades - seven four-issue series, two bookends, plus the three-issue JLA: Classified run. It's not something that could be collected easily.
Get the issues. It's worth it.

[Groovie Mann]

new artist (http://www.billydallaspatton.com)

more americanized manga look but i think, with the tone of the book, it should work fine. some of his pin ups and sequentials look nice. especially his redesign on gen 13.

[Groovie Mann]

okay, i'm starting work on zatanna and then klarion. after that i'll post it all here for your enjoyment. then... well, i'll email what i ahve done to 4D Glasses who is going to take this crap and make do soem website mumbo jumbo complete withpics and links and what not.

i'm not sure how i'm going to do it after this. might jumble sk, guardian, and miracle #1 into a single post and then do zatanna and klarion as a single post. or i might just do all five when klarion finishes.

oh wait, zatannas gonna be late right? damn... well, just an extra week i think...

[rodolfo leon]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
Almost certainly, but 7 Soldiers is not something you should read in trade format. More than any other comic I've read recently, it's designed to be read as single issues, in the order in which they come out. You'd totally miss the interconnections if you read, say, all of Shining Knight then all of Klarion, or whatever...
Plus it's an odd one to collect into trades - seven four-issue series, two bookends, plus the three-issue JLA: Classified run. It's not something that could be collected easily.
Get the issues. It's worth it.

in a perfect world, instead of releasing 'trades' of these comics, they'd release some kinda slipcase with each chapter (individual issue) printed separately with no ads, that way you can set them up in whatever order you want/need (by title, or by release date).

at 33 chapters (30 Seven Soldiers issues + 3 JLA:C), it might be a bit pricey, but people should've gotten the singles in the first place! :p ;)

this series is one of the few projects that's clearly built as a periodical read, and not as a chaptered single story. the ammount of clue-hunting that each issue requires fills the two-week wait for each issue, and the modular structure of the maxi-series is awe-inspiring.

whoever reads this whole thing in "one-sitting" is gonna REALLY miss out. ;)

[David Bird]

Originally posted by rodolfo leon
in a perfect world, instead of releasing 'trades' of these comics, they'd release some kinda slipcase with each chapter (individual issue) printed separately with no ads, that way you can set them up in whatever order you want/need (by title, or by release date).

at 33 chapters (30 Seven Soldiers issues + 3 JLA:C), it might be a bit pricey, but people should've gotten the singles in the first place! :p ;)

this series is one of the few projects that's clearly built as a periodical read, and not as a chaptered single story. the ammount of clue-hunting that each issue requires fills the two-week wait for each issue, and the modular structure of the maxi-series is awe-inspiring.

whoever reads this whole thing in "one-sitting" is gonna REALLY miss out. ;)

You know McSweeney's does stuff like that all the time. So, its not out of the realm of the possible.

[rodolfo leon]

Originally posted by David Bird
You know McSweeney's does stuff like that all the time. So, its not out of the realm of the possible.

hmmm. so, i might as well stop "daydreaming" and officially move into "wishful thinking" and "finger-crossing" ;)

[Planetary]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
Not as good as the other series - less happening in it compared to the other #1s. VERY strong art, and still better than most things out there. LOTS of New Gods/Fourth World stuff. Still very interesting, but more 'decompressed' feeling than the other first issues.
Not meant to be a knock on the issue - if I didn't have such high expectations of 7 Soldiers I'd be praising it to the skies - it's just that this is merely very, very, very good, and I've come to expect superlative from this series.

I felt the same way, but for an opposite reason. Decompression wasn't the problem. An escape from a black hole, introduction to a god who is in need of help, and a brief, but informative history of Mr. Miracle.

[Groovie Mann]

Power of 7

These are in the Book of Revelations (chapter and verse are in parenthesis):
Seven churches (1:4).
Seven golden candlesticks (1:12).
Seven stars (1:16).
Seven lamps of fire burning before the throne [of God], which are the seven Spirits of God (4:5).
Seven seals (5:1)
[Saw a] lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes (5:6).
Seven angels (8:2).
Seven trumpets (8:6).
[An angel spoke with] a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices (10:3).
[As a result of] the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand (11:13).
[Saw] a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads (12:3).
[Saw a] beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (13:1).
The seven last plagues (15:1)
Seven golden vials full of the wrath of God (15:7).

(Thank you David Bird)

Shining Knight #3
Art by Simone Bianchi & Dave Stewart
Characters: Bors, Peredur, Galahad, Mordredd the Undead, Sir Justin, Helen Helligan, Gloria Friday/Sheeda Queen, I, Spyder
Summary: The Perfect Knight Return finds two FBI agents interrogating Sir Justin who turns himself over to the police. Justin is seeking to put together soldiers to battle the Sheeda Queen and save the world. However the Sheeda are already here and seeking the elimination of their adversaries. Gloria Friday is actually the Sheeda Queen. She kidnaps Justin, takes Arthurs sword, and reintroduces him to Galahad who is now under her control.

Things of Note
The Sheeda are responsible for all major civilization collapses.

The knights Bors, Peredur and Galahad brought back from Ysse three imperishable treasures. Some digging says that Ysse might be Gila Ysse which in certain myths/stories was an elven kingdom that stood for Golden Sanctuary. http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/vortexshadow/history.html

CBR Forums: Quote from page 2: " There, eight miles below sea level, they split the building blocks of matter itself on their anvils."

Am I right in thinking that this- will be/was/will have been - the "six-sided god-machine"? It fits for me, because if "the building blocks of matter itself" are "split" - i.e. if we dare to follow quantum theory to its inevitable conclusions and search beneath (oh, so loaded, these terms) the surface of what we see as reality ("matter itself"), we will be forced to confront the possibility that our so-called reality is based on nothing more than probability/chance?

Back in Klarion #2 there was a scene between one of the children of the Leviathan and Klarion about Guardians helmet(left from Guardian #2) and Klairon suggested making it a pot. There’s been speculation about this being a Holy Grail reference. If so it was Peredur, Galahad and Bors who found the treasure bt only Bors survived to bring it to Arthur and tell the tale.

CBR Forums: Mabinogion, Peredur is another version of Pryderi, the Underworld King killed by our old buddy Gwydion. And of course, the name is also the original of Perceval, one of the Grail Quest heroes. Galahad of course later supplanted everyon and became THE major Grail hero, expecially when the Christan aspects of the myth became dominant. Don't recall much about Bors, or where that character fits in Arthurian myth.

More on Mabinogion check out http://www.mabinogion.info/ (http://www.mabinogion.info/)

I, Spyder who first appeared in Seven Soldiers Special #0 appears within this pages and a soldier in the Sheeda.


The Manhattan Guardian #3
Art by Cameron Stewart & Moose Baumann
Characters: Jake Jordan/Guardian, Ed Stargard, Newsboy Legion, Carla Marcus, Lauren Marcus, Jorge Control, Hanna Control
Summary: In Siege At Century Hollow the Guardian breaks into century hollow, a scientific facility studying population and statistics, where the robots have gone insane. It’s up to guardian to save the people. However the Guardian is dealing with real life troubles as his girlfriend breaks up with him angry that he left her father to rescue her. The problems have lead Guardian to quit his job and discover that ed Stargard is actually a deformed man, a full grown individual stuck in a babys body.

Things of Note
What are the seven weapons? And is Guardians his helmet which has been a recurring theme because of it’s appearance in Seven Soldiers #0 and Klarion #2.

Ed Stargard is Baby Brains from the orginal newsboy Army mentioned in Zatanna #3. Ali Ka-Zoom in that series(and Shining Knight #2) is Merlin of the Ghetto. Don Vincenzo from Shining Knight #2 is Kid Scarface. Some speculation that Captain 7 is actually Carlas father but I doubt that, and I’ll explain why when we get to Guardian #4.

Century Hollow- possibly a comment on the hollowness/shallowness of contemporary life.

Know who Osamu Tezuka is? The godfather of manga? Well in his story Cyborg 009 there was a cyborg character 001 who was a baby with mental abilities. Basiclaly tezuka is like Japans Jack Kirby in the since his style greatly influenced the industry and what was produced there after. On another side note, Tezuka himself was partly inspired by Walt Disney. So, in essence, all manga is a direct relative of Disney animation. Bite on that manga haters!!!!

Hey look, no Sheeda reference. But Ed Stargard does mention ‘Seven Soldiers.’


Zatanna #3
Art by Ryan Sook, Mick Gray, &Nathan Ryring
Characters: Zatanna, Misty, Tempter, Grim Reaper/Bus Driver, Ali Ka-Zoom, Gwydion in a Jar, Vanguard, Don Vincenzo, Neh-Buh-Loh
Summary: Three Days of the Dead has Zatanna and Misty traveling around continuing Mistys training. There they exorcise the demon tempter and On the road they run into Ali Ka-Zoom whose come to seek out his cabinet. They head to Don Vincenzos mansion and uncover dead corpses. and the Sheeda trying to take away Vanguard. The Sheeda soldiers stand back and bow to Misty as Ali Ka-Zoom greet his dead friend, Don, formerly Kid Scarface. Misty and Zatanna are told to find the cauldron and the Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp. But before they set out they run into Neh-Buh-Loh and we learn Misty si the Sheeda princess who Neh-Buh-Loh was suppose to kill. Vanguard saves the two at the end.

Things of Note
More connection to the 7 sins. Justins guilt, Zatannas desire. Possibly Guardians wrath and for Bulleteer vanity/pride based on her origins. Of course, just speculation at this point.

Certina Brothers Grimm associatin appears in this story dealing in part with Gloriana the step-mother, Neh-Buh-Loh the huntsman, and Misty the princess. I’m nto exactly sure about the step-mother piece but seeing as she got rid of Misty because she didn’t want a princess… who knows, doesn’t feel like any real motherly love.

Lets go to CBR Forums shall we: I think the revelations about Misty's origins are very significant in regard to this idea. Misty's step-mother, Gloriana Tenebrae intends to live forever and arranges to have her natural successor, the Princess, Misty, killed. If the natural function of the Sheeda is as described above, it could be that it's Gloriana's unnatural desire to live forever that is at the root of their villainous behavior (attacking and destroying civilizations before their time is due). Gloriana has attempted to interrupt the natural cycle of her own kingdom in the opposite sense: by extending her own reign past its allotted span. If Misty had succeeded her step-mother as she was supposed to have done, perhaps the Sheeda would not have become the villains they are in this story.

Ali-Ka-Zoom's line, "We're here to attend the end of empires and childhood dreams" might reflect on some of these concepts. "The end of emnpires" could reflect the natural collapse or premature destruction of civilisations that the Sheeda are involved with, depending on whether or not they are fulfilling or exceeding their natural function.

"The end of childhood dreams" might reflect on Misty's situation. Although her step-mother did not succeed in killing her, she did succeed in preventing Misty from taking her place. In other words, Misty's natural development, which presumably should have led to her becoming Queen of the Sheeda, has been interrupted. Her loss of memory is both a part and representative of the loss of her true identity (Princess and later, Queen). This "arrested development" has left her in a state of perpetual childhood, the natural cycle of birth, development and death has been interrupted, and this is reflected in Misty's physical appearance as a young girl. From this POV, "the end of childhood dreams" may not be a negative thing, but rather a necessary step forward, an indication that Misty is about to resume her natural process of maturation.

The name of the Sheeda kingdom, "Summer's End" is another thing that might reflerct on this idea of natural cycles and so on. The Sheeda are associated witht he end of summer, which is of course not a deplorable evil but simply another stage in the natural cycle of the seasons. But Morgane la Faye has interrupted the cycle by attempting literal immortality.

If there's anything to all this, I guess we should expect the series to conclude with the death of Morgana la Faye (who it seems should have died a natural death long, long ago; remember how cold she felt in Shining Knight #3?) and the ascension of the Princess, Misty in her place.
(damn, wish I was as intelligent as a lot of these Comic book resources people).

There was talk that Misty might have been a part of Zatannas soul taken shape, that talk has now cease but Misty may still represent Zatanna on a symbolic level. Zatnnas view towards herself. See the scene in the car in issue 3 before they run into Ali Ka-Zoom.

Sheeda=faeries? Works with the elements of magic seen thus far in the series.

This issue takes place before Shining Knight #4.


Klarion the Witch Boy #3
Art by Frazer Irving
Characters: Klarion, Teekl, Mister Melmoth, Mister Silencio, Goldenboy, Billy Beezeer, Murderella-Rella, Mouse, Nob’dy, rest of the kid gang Deviants
Summary: The Deviant Ones has Klarion joining a kid gang that works for Mister Melmoth. They rob a giant drill that burrows underground. They deliver it to mister Melmoth and soon Klarion understands that Melmoth and his associates are trying to get to Limbo town. Plus at a certain age he sends his kid soldiers to a “red place” to work as labor. At the end of the issue Klarion decides to return to Limbo town.

Things of Note
The taxies in Guardian are called Pumpkin taxies and the one Klarion is in is called Pumpkins, which means the two titles are existing at the same time in the same city, Cinderella City(aka NYC).

Do the Deviant ones represent anything? Well, one CBR poster had this to say about some of the characters: The Deviant Ones seem to channel a few different types of characters. Nobdy seems to channel Jack Kirby with the King helmet, but also a Gail Simone character that she created in Agent X called Mary Zero. Mary Zero for those who don't know has very similar powers to Nobdy, except that she is a girl and only Deadpool seems to know she exists, as with Nobdy the Deviant children know he is with them. Murderella-rella channels Cinderella's name.

Billy Beezer seems to have a name similar to another Gail Simone Marvel creation in a character known as Gus Beezer. Gus was a kid who dreamed hanging out with superheroes while having to avoid his family. Unless there is some literary or TV character with the name Beezer, I doubt he could have gotten anywhere else.

I've also heard on a review site that Mouse resembles Diana Rigg as Emma Peel from her early episodes of the Avengers, but I wouldn't know if that's true or not.

I think Boy Blue from Seven Soldiers #0 also fits the fairy tale theme.

I also was wondering though does anyone think its possible that Boy Blue might have been one of the Deviant Ones? There are no clues to support this, but the mention of the GoldenBoy, and Team Red felt there was some sort of connection as the original Boy Blue had a sidekick called Red Riding Hood.
And as I and Wesley Dodds have said there are some allusions to Pinocchio in the minis as well.
(Pinocchio? Well, I’ve heard it mentioned a few times but having some trouble trying to fit it myself. But I ain’t going to argue)

Red place=Mars? Why not? They came through the Erdel gate and any self-respecting DC head knows Erdel is the last name of the good doctor who brought Martian Manhunter from Mars.

Hey, is that a reference to Runaways in the final panel on page 1?

Part 4 Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1228701#post1228701)

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann

Billy Beezer seems to have a name similar to another Gail Simone Marvel creation in a character known as Gus Beezer. Gus was a kid who dreamed hanging out with superheroes while having to avoid his family. Unless there is some literary or TV character with the name Beezer, I doubt he could have gotten anywhere else.


There was a kids' comic up til the late 80s in the UK called Beezer...

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
There was a kids' comic up til the late 80s in the UK called Beezer...

thanks. didn't know that.

[rodolfo leon]

look what i found! :)

http://poesia21.free.fr//images/articles/200503261348SEVEN%20SOLDIERS%202.gif

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann Red place=Mars? Why not? They came through the Erdel gate and any self-respecting DC head knows Erdel is the last name of the good doctor who brought Martian Manhunter from Mars.

Banana_Oil had to remind me of that.

*** hangs head in shame from scorn from other dork. ;) ***

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Banana_Oil had to remind me of that.

*** hangs head in shame from scorn from other dork. ;) ***

luckily i had notes. i wouldn't have gotten it if someone else didn't point it out first.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Power of 7

These are in the Book of Revelations (chapter and verse are in parenthesis):
Seven churches (1:4).
Seven golden candlesticks (1:12).
Seven stars (1:16).
Seven lamps of fire burning before the throne [of God], which are the seven Spirits of God (4:5).
Seven seals (5:1)
[Saw a] lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes (5:6).
Seven angels (8:2).
Seven trumpets (8:6).
[An angel spoke with] a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices (10:3).
[As a result of] the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand (11:13).
[Saw] a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads (12:3).
[Saw a] beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (13:1).
The seven last plagues (15:1)
Seven golden vials full of the wrath of God (15:7).

(Thank you David Bird)

Methinks I have underestimated David Bird's dopeness....

Respekk!!!

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
luckily i had notes. i wouldn't have gotten it if someone else didn't point it out first.

Straight up, I had to read Guardian #4 three times before I finally caught the Cyrus Gold - gold place connection.

Re-readability is a scarce commodity in the comic industry sometimes. I think comics today are written as storyboards for movies/tv series. I mean, how awesome would a Guardian movie be?

[Groovie Mann]

bump

[BillReed]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Re-readability is a scarce commodity in the comic industry sometimes. I think comics today are written as storyboards for movies/tv series. I mean, how awesome would a Guardian movie be?

Probably not at all.

It's a comic, dammit, and a comic it shall always be!

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by BillReed
Probably not at all.

It's a comic, dammit, and a comic it shall always be!

Dude, the kid that gave him a motorscooter loaner in #1 opened a door for truly funny kid sidekicks. Sassy neighborhood kids helping a local hero makes for PG-13 GOLD!!!

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by BillReed
Probably not at all.

It's a comic, dammit, and a comic it shall always be!

Preach on!

[4DGlasses]

OK, which would you rather have?

Guardian movie or a crappy remake of an old movie/tv show starring Jessica Simpson/Tara Reid/Tart o' the Week?

My vote will always be for a comic adaptation.

But then again, you could question my credibility. I liked Daredevil (Director's Cut).

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
OK, which would you rather have?

Guardian movie or a crappy remake of an old movie/tv show starring Jessica Simpson/Tara Reid/Tart o' the Week?

My vote will always be for a comic adaptation.

But then again, you could question my credibility. I liked Daredevil (Director's Cut).

Personally I'd rather a film with an original idea that wasn't copying anything from any other medium. I wouldn't go to see either film...

[4DGlasses]

I don't think we're going to get away from a glut of crappy remakes and comic adaptations unless something as drastic as Hollywood falling into the ocean occurs.

And after Batman Begins, the bar's been raised.

PS to Morrison fans - New Line picked up WE3!!!

[shifty]

Is Scott Free retired? He was in Identity Crisis. WTF? I don't have a problem with Shilo being Mister Miracle, just tell me where Scott went.

[BillReed]

Originally posted by shifty
Is Scott Free retired? He was in Identity Crisis. WTF? I don't have a problem with Shilo being Mister Miracle, just tell me where Scott went.

He's hanging out in a nice Metropolis neighborhood with his wife.

[rodolfo leon]

i'd thought i'd just *BUMP* this thread, 'cause i'm a Morrison whore, and i finally got my copy of Mister Miracle. :cool:

it rocked, yes it did indeed. i just wonder how they're gonna tie this baby up with everything else. Sheeda + Darkseid! looks like trouble is a-brewing! :eek:

[Groovie Mann]

sorry about not updating yet, but been tired and bust. maybe thsi week i'll do sk #4, guardian #4 and miracle #1

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
sorry about not updating yet, but been tired and bust. maybe thsi week i'll do sk #4, guardian #4 and miracle #1

Not a problem. They're a lot of work and real life does have a habit of getting in the way.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
sorry about not updating yet, but been tired and bust. maybe thsi week i'll do sk #4, guardian #4 and miracle #1

No worries, dude. Keep up the fantastic job!

[dollman]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Seven Soldiers of Victory


The team had members go in an out. Green arrow and Speedy even served time on the team. The original team was betrayed by Spider and then engaged in a battle with Nebula Man. A battle where the unofficial member Wing sacrificed himself to save the day.

Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1184867#post1184867)

Are you getting your post & pre-Crisis versions of the Soldiers confused? No way Green Arrow and Speedy are part of the post-Crisis SSV. There is no golden age Green Arrow or Speedy in the current DCU, and their careers started roughly after Batman and Robin's began.

[shifty]

Originally posted by dollman
Are you getting your post & pre-Crisis versions of the Soldiers confused? No way Green Arrow and Speedy are part of the post-Crisis SSV. There is no golden age Green Arrow or Speedy in the current DCU, and their careers started roughly after Batman and Robin's began.

He's right. Golden age Green Arrow was retconned to be the Spider.

[4DGlasses]

Zatanna #4 has been moved to a Nov. 2 release, same day as the potential sleeper hit Bulleteer!

Anyone know the new original line-up of 7SOV?

[David Bird]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Anyone know the new original line-up of 7SOV?

By new do you mean the original line up according to this story? It seems to be the original from the 40s. If you look at page 22 of Seven Soldiers 0, there is a picture of the original group and it seems to mesh with the original 7S. This is what DCUguide says about them:

A group of heroes also known as Law's Legionnaires who operated in the 1940s. Their membership comprised Crimson Avenger I, Shining Knight, Star-Spangled Kid I, Stripesy, Stuff, the Chinatown Kid, Vigilante I and Spider I, with Wing serving as an honorary eighth soldier. The group was betrayed by the Spider, a villain in disguise, and in a battle with the Nebula Man, Wing was killed and the others thrown to various time periods, from which they were rescued by the Justice Society of America and the Justice League of America. The group disbanded after their return to the twentieth century.

The entry can be found here. (http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=sevensoldiersofvictory) You can click on their names there for further info.

[furioso2012]

When is Klarion 4 out?

Bummed that Zatanna is delayed!

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by furioso2012
When is Klarion 4 out?


10-19-05

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
10-19-05

i'm sure its delayed too. DC will probably ship weekly after zatanna is released. zatanna #4 on 11/2, klarion on 11/9, bulleteer on 11/16, frankenstein on 11/23.

i assume thsi because last time zatanna was released late they delayed klarion as well and put it out the next week.

[Groovie Mann]

4D, here's something for the site.

About the "Red am I in Battle. Red the ravens that follow at my heels" thing. At the beginning of Shining Knight #1 Morrison mentions the Morrigan prophesying the fall of Avalon. The Morrigan was a triple goddess of womanhood, war and destruction -- aka the Raven goddess. I think those words probably had religious significance to Justin. Morrigan is her patron goddess, maybe?

from the CBR forums. reword it and whatnot.

[Groovie Mann]

little something else i found.

Vigilante first fought the 'Monster of Miracle Mesa', which was in fact a Sheeda spider mare, in the 19th century. When he shows the Whip a newspaper from that time, he says "That's Johnny Frankenstein riding with me."

We know that a character called Frankenstein will star in the last 7soldiers mini. We also know that he uses dead body parts grafted onto his own body. my theory is that the character of the Frankenstein mini will be the same Johnny Frankenstein that rode with Vigilante in 1875. How is he still alive in the 21st century? Well, we already know that Frankenstein has the power to graft dead body parts to himself, which would explain his longevity (as the Whip says in #0; "Old superheroes never die, huh?"). And if he is still around it makes sense that Vigilante sought his help again, when the spider-monster that they both battled re-appeared. Vigilante says little about the mysterious seventh soldier, excpt that they got "cold feet". This might be a deliberate pun - Frankenstein literally has "cold feet", as his feet are dead body parts. Lastly, Grant has said the Frankenstein mini will be a "brutal revenge comic". Johnny Frankenstein seeking revenge against the Sheeda for the death of his old friend Vigilante?

Of course, Johnny Frankenstein might just be some pre-established DC western character, in which case my theory is shot to shreds

[Groovie Mann]

changes to babrelith. this is the proper directions. (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers)

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
i'm sure its delayed too. DC will probably ship weekly after zatanna is released. zatanna #4 on 11/2, klarion on 11/9, bulleteer on 11/16, frankenstein on 11/23.

i assume thsi because last time zatanna was released late they delayed klarion as well and put it out the next week.

Which supports the idea that the release dates are the reading order, even if they're not a necessary one.

By the way, when was this thread moved from Talk@?

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by David Bird
Which supports the idea that the release dates are the reading order, even if they're not a necessary one.

By the way, when was this thread moved from Talk@?

last night. i PMed matt and had it changed.

[Groovie Mann]

working on it. finished the shining knight segment which, for some odd reason, was complicated for me. lots of looking for stuff i didn't need to look for.

4D, i emailed you some nootations i found(which will be incorprated with a couple things i need to do now) and you might want to incorporate it into the notes i sent. plus a few corrections.

and theres that thing about the cjb.net webhosting i already hooked up for the site.

[Groovie Mann]

Shining Knight #4
Art by Simone Bianchi & Dave Stewart
Characters: Sir Justin, I, Spyder, Sheeda Queen/Gloriana Tenebrea, Sir Galahad, Don Vincenzo, Vanguard, Neh-Buh-Loh, Strato, Silencio
Summary: The Last Stand of Don Vincenzo is the final chapter in the Shining Knight portion of Seven Soldiers. Sir Justin finds himself in the clutches of the Sheeda Queen Gloriana Tenebrea facing off against his one time friend Galahad whose been mutated by the Sheeda. All the while Don Vincenzo baths in the cauldron of yourth which the Sheeda seek. Vincenzo and his men battle the Sheeda but are not able to stop them. In the clutches of Galahad and Gloriana we learn that sir Justin is actually a girl. Gloriana leaves the battle with her guards as word comes of her husband, Dark Melmoth, is alive. In their absence Justin uses two swords to slay Galahad. The mini series ends with a glimpse back at when Galahad knighted Justin unaware she was a girl.

Things of Note
Mister Melmoth from Klarion the Witchboy is the husband of the Sheeda Queen.

Gloriana a reference to the Fairy Queen of Edmund Spenser? Apperently in the poem Gloriaina refers to Queen Elizabeth. More on the poem at www.sparksnotes.com/poetry/fqueen/

Don Vincenzo mentions Silencio’s boy. Silencio appeared in Klarion #3.

I, Spyder could have been working as a traitor amongst the heroes in Seven Soldiers Special #0 much like how his grandfather(?) Spider betrayed the original team in a much earlier story.

Sheeda speak? Glad you asked.

Page 8: I bring news of your husband mistress.
Page 11 Part 1: In Heaven there is no beer.
Page 11 Part 2: Which is why we drink it here. http://www.brave.com/bo/lyrics/inheaven.htm
Page 13: Always after me lucky charms.

Strato is, from my understanding, saying the following on page 15 is: Loyal True Righteous Courage.

The following stolen from LITG at LITG (http://www.comicbookresources.com), under archives for September, from an annotations list.
"This is ____ing mythology calling." - Don Vincenzo prefers the wonder of myth to reality - a common theme among the Newsboy Army - Gimmix clings to faded youth, Baby Brain to the illusion of being a normal adult, and Ali-Ka-Zoom to still being alive...

Neh-Buh-Loh crushes the fantasy and mythology of Don Vicenzo, describing it as "just blood and mud and heat leaving meat." - another blood reference, and also one to the mention in Guardian of clay being the link between organic and inorganic matter. This is also perhaps how a celestial and possibly divine being like Neh-Buh-Loh might regard humanity, in the most simple terms.

Sir Justin is both a 'falsebeard' and a 'no-beard'.

This issue takes place before the events in Zatanna #3.


Manhattan Guardian #4
Art by Cameron Stewart & Moose Baumann
Characters: Jake Jordon/Guardian, Ed Stargard/Baby Brains, Captain 7, Millions, Chop Suzi, Merlin of the Ghetto/Ali Ka-Zoom, Kid Scarface/Don Vincenzo, Lil’ Hollywood, Lena, Mo Colley, Terrible Time Tailor, Sheeda Queen/Gloriana Tenebrea,
Summary: Sex Secrets of the Newsboy Army is the final installment of Guardian and finds Jake Jordon/Guardian hearing the first hand account of how the original Newsboy Army fell apart. Ed stargard was babt Brains, one of the seven Newsboy Army alongside Capt. 7, Kid Scarface, Lil’ Hollywood, Chop Suzi, Merlin of the Ghetto and the dog Millions. One adventure leads them to discovering a mysterious faerie that can brainwash people. The group take a trip to Slaughter Swamp where they encounter the Terrible Time Tailor and the Sheeda Queen. The groups final adventure ends on a tragic note. At the end Guardian prepares for his part in the fight against the Sheeda.

Things of Note
This is the first time the Sheeda are mentioned in the series.

Who is Lil’ Hollywood? She is the only living member of the Newsboy Army alive. Many have speculated Gimmix. Turns out that Gimmix isn’t actually the DC character Merry the Girl of a 1000 Gimmics. Merry the Girl of 1000 Gimmicks is Merry Pemberton King. Gimmix is Jacqueline Pemberton. Now they could be the same person seeing as Merrys last name was Pemberton before marrying Henry King(Brain Wave). Possibly changing her first name and dropping the King after her disappearance. Merry was also the adoptive sister to the Star-Spangled Kid giving Merry a direct line to the original group. Merry didn’t have any sisters nor a daughter. It’s also been speculated that the 75 year old unnamed alcoholic from Zatanna #1 might be Lil’Hollywood.

Mo’ Colley says in Sheeda tongue: Mmm… death.

Seems the Sheeda might be hunting teams of seven. In the IC minis there’s mostly teams of six. Secret Six not counting Mokingbird, Shadowpact not including Black Alice(especially seeing as she doesn’t want a part of the battle), and in Rann/Thanagar War which team fluctutated rapidly with deaths and betrayals but was at it’s least five members and never seven for a lengthy period of time.

The time tailor bares some resemblance to Grant Morrison. Who is the Time Tailor? A traitor from the Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp? Why do they flee the Sheeda? Does this flashback tale take place before or after the events in Seven Soldiers Special #0?

Speculation as to if Morrison was stating, in certain scenes, how creators now take innocent characters and taint them. Possible swipe at Identity Crisis which Morrison admittedly didn’t like? The knowledge that Chop Suzi was pregnant at the time of her death could support that theory.

Captain 7 might have sexually assaulted, or something worse to, Chop Suzi as alluded to on page 17. However she dies before we hear her side of the story. The kids may have been put against one another by the Time Tailor.

Lets go to the CBR forums: The Time Tailor's treatment of the 7 kids was echoed in advance by Melmoth's treament of his 7 kids ("the Deviant Ones"), representative of so many others in his case of course, in the last Klarion. The Time Tailor forces them to try on "special clothes, suits you'll wear when your older" just as Melmoth tries to represent his enslavement of his kids as part of the natural process of becoming an adult (which, incidentally, brings us back once again to the theme of false distortions of the normal cycle of maturation). The Time Tailor's idea of facing the real world is shown in the series of panels in which we see the innocents subjected to various depressing or unsavory fates, just as Melmoth preaches to Billy that being a man means a life of hard labor in the gold mines (like the "Gold place" where the 7 kids meet the Time Tailor) .

Love the way that Jake broke free from the pattern at the end and started writing his own script. Everything was set up to follow a certain course - Ed was to sacrifice himself, one more victim of the Time Tailor's false representation of reality, and Jake was to somehow muddle on. But Jake rejects this fatalism, maybe because he isn't a kid, he's an adult who's had the opportunity to reach maturity via a relatively undistorted path, and isn't as susceptible to the kind of mental and spiritual domination the innocent 7 kids were subjected to (and through the fictional lense maybe we can see how this kind of treatment of innocent minds is truly one of the worst crimes its possible to commit; wonder if any advertising or MacDonald's execs read this issue).

By rejecting Ed's scenario - which really isn't Ed's but the Time Tailor's, from this POV - he rejects the false image of reality that's been imposed on Ed, and begins an attempt to become a truly free agent. He decides Ed can still contribute, more that he's vital tot he task ahead, whatver it might turn out to be in detail (notice that "free agent" in this case doesn't imply adolescent illusions of complete self-sufficiency).

More annotations from LITG (http://www.comicbookresources.com) I have discovered make me question a certain scene in Shining Knight #2 and Zatanna #2.
"The end of the Queen of Terror's reign with a spear that never was thrown" - riff on Longinus' Spear? The Dolorous Blow to the Fisher King in the Morte D'Arthur? Again, just like Spyder, Gloriana knows the circumstances of her doom - are the 'villains' fated to lose? Have their 'suits' already been decided, just like those of the 'heroes'?

The Tailor says to the Newsboy Army, 'give me that silly outsize TOP HAT you wear, Ali. I'LL look good in that.' ...and so perhaps it is him, not Ali, that appears in SK#2 on the bench next to Justin, or in Cass' magic shop? Or perhaps A-K-Z becomes his fiction suit?


Mister Miracle #1
Art by Pasqual Ferry &Dave McCaig
Characters: Shilo Norman/Mr. Miracle, Metron, Gaylord Malmaison, Psychiatrist, Granny Goodness and the Furies(Mad Harriet, Bernadeth, Wunda, Lashina), Death-The Black Racer, Cameos by High-Father, Darkseid, and Orion
Summary: The fifth mini to start, mister Miracle opens with New Godz as Shilo Norman aka Mr. Miracle relates a story to his psychiatrist. About his attempt to escape a black hole. It is during his stunt he encounters Metron the observer. Through Metron Norman gets a glimpse of a war between gods where “the wrong side won.” The experience left him questioning his life. His manager leads him somewhere for some relaxation only to meet granny Goodness and her girls. Norman freaks out and runs away. Now, after leaving his doctor finds himself on the run from forces he doesn’t understand.

Things of Note
The cover image of Mister Miracle descending as if a Christ like figure may hint at his mortality in the final Seven soldiers issue.

No sheeda? Nope, no sheeda.

A motherbox, along with Boom Tubes, were a regular part of Kirby's New Gods stories -- essentially, they're small, portable supercomputers with a few dimension-twisting add-ons.

This Mr. Miracles motherbox is spelled with two extra Xs. Might be a reference to one half of the Outcast grammy winnung album Speakerboxxx/The Love Below by Outcast.

The motherbox takes the role of the barbelith.
Barbelith is an egregore founded on the principles of agape, education and transformation, capable of releasing ideas and assisting in initiation, individuation and self-development. It acts as a placenta, providing the developing human race with the nourishment necessary in order to grow into its full potential. This global working is accomplished by its capacity to engage with an unlimited number of people simultaneously.

Barbelith was originally part of The Invisibles, a comic series by Grant Morrison. This work was has been called a narrative hypersigil: in other words, a magical working intended to bring about changes in its author and readership. A large body of anecdotal evidence exists to suggest that the intentions of the working were successful, although these effects are not easily quantifiable (they rely on the subjective experience of those involved). As the methodology of the working involved the way in which our personal realities and world models depend on fiction for their existence and maintenance, it's reasonable to suggest that the egregore has received sufficient empowerment to be used in workings which are independent from (albeit ideologically linked to) the original text. Furthermore, there are already accounts of Barbelith interacting with a number of individuals connected to this site.
Here: http://members.cruzio.com/~chris23/barbelith.html

Metron, Darkseid, High-Father and many others are of course from Jack Kirbys New God series.

The psychiatrist could be the Jack Kirby character Dr. Bedlam who appeared in the original Mr. Miracle series starting with issue #8. Bedlam is also derived from a psychiatric hospital Saint Mary of Bethleham.

From www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers
So who is the Black Racer? Previously, he was Sgt. Willie Walker, (Here (http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/black-racer.html)) a Vietnam vet whose injuries left him mute and paralyzed, and who was subsequently possessed by a force of the New Gods... the force of Death. So, for the most part, Walker was confined to a hospital bed, but as soon as one of the New Gods died in their war against Apokolips, Walker was suddenly able to zip around at the speed of light. Unfortunately, he did so on, umm, a pair of hyperspace skis. In some ways, this character may have been Kirby's way of trying to create a new Silver Surfer for DC, but heroes on skis just don't seem quite as cool as heroes on surfboards. Anyway, he's appeared in Flash stories on and off since then.

Next segment (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1397820#post1397820)

[David Bird]

So, Shining Knight 4 takes place before Zatanna 3 and Zatanna 3 takes place before Shining Knight 4. Hmmm...

I really hope Morrison keeps Black Racer off his skis. Kirby might have been the King, but, man, how lame can you get? I have always thought there should be an award, like the Razzies, to highlight when people or companies try to copy a good thing by repeating its most superficial aspects. People liked the Silver Surfer, and surfers skim over water, so they'll like the Black Racer, because he has skis, and skiers skim over snow. Which is, umm, frozen water.

I copied this, some time ago, actually from From Tales to Astonish: Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, and the American Comic Book Revolution by Ronin Ro, Bloomsbury, New York 2004, pages 155-156:



Page 155

DC started publishing the titles in the order Jack submitted them, and his life became an endless loop of work. Once the latest Mister Miracle was done, he'd start the next New Gods, then get to The Forever People. If someone asked what he'd done in a story completed a few hours ago, he'd have to consult photocopies for an answer. Only when DC called to say they needed a cover immediately did he stop work. And once he finished whatever DC needed, he got right back to it. Since he didn't use an outline, he placed completed pages that didn't fit into a current story into a pile near his desk, only to reach for them later and stick them into other comics.

At one point, he showed Roz a drawing of his new hero, the Black Racer, a black guy who wore a red-and-blue medieval-style suit of armor and skis. "It's crazy," she said. "It'll never go over. What kind of crazy name is that?"

"Don't worry," he answered, "it'll catch on."

The Racer was Jack's version of the Grim Reaper. But after he met Sgt. Willie Walker, a completely paralyzed black Vietnam vet who was stuck in his bed in the ghetto, the Racer turned to dust and Walker miraculously stood up and put on the armor. Jack wasn't really keen on writing about death, but Carmine seemed to like this sort of stuff, and other editors encouraged him to put as many new characters as possible into his books. Figuring that DC might get behind his work a little more and that kids might see the skis and remember Surfer's board - and enjoy this sports tie-in just as much - he sent DC the sketch, planning to introduce the Black Racer in New Gods. And if readers liked him - the way they had

Page 156

liked the Surfer in The Fantastic Four, maybe he'd give him his own title.

But Evanier urged him to hold off. Already the books were all over the place. Assuming that others would take over, Jack had spent early issues introducing dozens of characters, their weapons and powers, and the fact that their planets were using the Earth as a battlefield. The costs of his ambitions, however, were nonlinear plots, awkward dialogue, and too many creations. When Evanier noted that readers still didn't know who Orion, Lightray, or Metron were, Jack agreed to set the Racer aside for now. But once Evanier left, Jack worried that someone at DC would show Marvel his sketch and that Marvel would rush a knockoff into print. That night, at his board, he ignored everyone and drew the Black Racer into New Gods No. 3.

By now, he and Carmine were promoting an image of unity that rivaled the one he'd had with Stan Lee, but Jack was secretly wondering if Carmine would ever let him hand over the Fourth World books to others. He suspected that Carmine was keeping them on a bimonthly schedule so he'd have time to do them, and once, as he sat near Carmine during an interview, he heard him tell a young comic fan that he wouldn't let anyone else touch Jack's characters. "He knows what he's doing with them," Carmine added.

There might have been other reasons. He was working on the fourth issues of his new books; DC, meanwhile, would just be receiving sales figures for their inaugural editions. If he handed the books off to Ditko, Heck, and Wood, and sales figures reported that the debuts were hits, new creators might cause the books to lose momentum. On the other hand, if they flopped, they'd be axed. Since he'd be staying, Jack stopped drawing the three titles as individual stories that introduced characters and worked to expand the scope and make them one sweeping epic.

Roz was his wife, Rosalind Kirby.

[Groovie Mann]

interesting stuff. i need to check out the new gods stuff. but a lot fo the tardes are out of print. i'm sure DC will reissue them with kirby being so "envoked" now a days in morrisons reimagings and even godland.

plus they just released kamandi. that has to say something.

[DiscoVietnam]

Groovie, just letting you know that you're doing a great job and it is much appreciated.

Now read New Gods :mad: :mad: :mad:

[4DGlasses]

I've heard folks complain about the art in Shining Knight making Justin look like a man in issues prior to #4...

Phooey!
<table>
<tr>
<td>
Shining Knight #2
</td>
<td>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/femininesk.gif" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>
Shining Knight #3
</td>
<td>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/femininejustin.gif" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
</td>
</tr>
</table>

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
I've heard folks complain about the art in Shining Knight making Justin look like a man in issues prior to #4...

Phooey!
<table>
<tr>
<td>
Shining Knight #2
</td>
<td>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/femininesk.gif" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>
Shining Knight #3
</td>
<td>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/femininejustin.gif" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
</td>
</tr>
</table>

thats odd because previously there were lots of complaints justin looked too much like a girl and i do remember the artist straight out saying justin was modeled to look like his younger sister. which should've been my first tip off...

[4DGlasses]

I just figured that Justin was a late bloomer.

Have you ever seen a teenage kid with long hair who can't grow facial hair? EASILY mistaken for a girl.

Lots of truth to that "Can't Judge a Book By It's Cover" saying.

[tralfaz]

i give you props groovie, this is some good background work

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by tralfaz
i give you props groovie, this is some good background work

thanks. but i couldn't have done it without the internet, free time, and a lot of smart people out there who've overheard analyzing each and very page.

[ping33]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann

Seems the Sheeda might be hunting teams of seven. In the IC minis there’s mostly teams of six. Secret Six not counting Mokingbird, Shadowpact not including Black Alice(especially seeing as she doesn’t want a part of the battle), and in Rann/Thanagar War which team fluctutated rapidly with deaths and betrayals but was at it’s least five members and never seven for a lengthy period of time.


Great thread... I'm only sorry that I didn't find it earlier.
I love the above bit!!! I have been cassandraing across the web trying to convince people that 7S and IC are not totally separate events if only that IC seems intent on being a "Crisis in Infinate Hypertime" which would include 7S (even for those who deny that it is happening in The DCU (or even An ancillary DCU))

It also fits in with the Identity issues which seems to cut to the core of so much of what is going on in the mainline DCU as a lead-in to the forthcoming Crisis. It seem uncoincidental that 7S' Mr. Miracle seems to be going through a similar "crisis" of self as Power Girl and Donna Troy wade through similar problems.

Perhaps these and all the Fish out of Water (because the fish is in the wrong world/universe) themes represent a new way of thinking about world changing comic cataclysms and it's nothing more then writers playing with roughly the same themes at roughly the same time... but it seems to me that a stonger connection is likely.

[David Bird]

According to news on Nrama's front page, the first 7S trade will be out in January. No news on the second, or any other, trade.

SEVEN SOLDIERS OF VICTORY VOL. 1 TP
Writer: Grant Morrison
Artists: J.H. Williams III, Simone Bianchi, Cameron Stewart, Ryan Sook, Frazer Irving and Mick Gray
Collects SEVEN SOLDIERS OF VICTORY #0, SEVEN SOLDIERS: SHINING KNIGHT #1-2, SEVEN SOLDIERS: GUARDIAN #1-2, SEVEN SOLDIERS: ZATANNA #1-2 and SEVEN SOLDIERS: KLARION THE WITCH BOY #1
224 pages, $14.99 US

An interesting selection.

[Groovie Mann]

looks as if the sequential reading order maybe messed up. i don't know, zatanna #3 took place after shining knight #4, though SK #4 did come out first, so maybe the editors don't think there will be much of a problem.

if bulleteer and zatanna come out on the same day i'm cool with that.

[David Bird]

So, Klarion is finished. What did you think?

[Marchie77]

lol... well i made a thread and got a reply from someone who hadnt read it yet... to tell me that he hadnt read it yet...

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Marchie77
lol... well i made a thread and got a reply from someone who hadnt read it yet... to tell me that he hadnt read it yet...

I've never understood posts like that. They just want the world to know that their opinion is that they have no opinion.

[Marchie77]

Originally posted by David Bird
I've never understood posts like that. They just want the world to know that their opinion is that they have no opinion.

haha no it wasnt that... he was saying "my comic store didnt have it so i havent read the stories, once i do i'll tell you what i think"... take a peek!

[furioso2012]

Thought issue 4 as aces. This will probably turn out to be my personal fave mini. Love the concept, love the tone (especially) and love the art.

I'm now very curious as to how the final bookend will be structured. In a way, it may be like IC, in that it has to introduce all of the 7S and their minis, then go on and show how they face the Sheeda.

I'd definitely like to see more Klarion in the future. Maybe not an ongoing, but more minis. Irving'd have to be the artist though. Accept no substitutes!

[4DGlasses]

I never thought I'd say this, but I would buy a Klarion ongoing.

I reviewed it elsewhere. How cool was the Klarion/Teekl Horigal??? :cool:

[David Bird]

With the Grundies of Limbo Town in Klarion I thought I'd take a look at the original Grundy:

From wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Grundy_%28comics%29)

In the late 19th century, a man named Cyrus Gold was murdered and his body disposed of in Slaughter Swamp, near Gotham City. Fifty years later, the corpse was reanimated as a huge shambling figure (composed partly of the swamp matter that had accumulated around the body over the decades) with almost no memory of its past life. Gold murdered two escaped criminals who were hiding out in the marsh and stole their clothes. He showed up in a hobo camp and, when asked about his name, one of the few things he could recall was that he was "born on a Monday". One of the men at the camp mentioned the nursery rhyme character Solomon Grundy, and Gold adapted the moniker.

And...

The origins of Grundy's resurrection come from the fact that the Parliament Of Trees, a high council of Plant Elementals, tried to turn him into the newest Plant Elemental. However, the process was missing one vital piece: fire. A Plant Elemental cannot be fully created unless it died in fire. Since Grundy's death did not involve fire at all, the process was not complete, and he became a sort of half-functional Plant Elemental. Grundy has been seemingly destroyed on several occasions, only to rise from the swamp again in a new incarnation. Each version of Grundy has been somewhat different from the last, depending on the medium used to dispatch him (and the drawing style of the current artist. The original Grundy, for example, had prominent front teeth). Some have been truly evil; some much less so. Some versions are more mindless than others; some are actually moderately intelligent, recalling the literate, well-spoken Frankenstein monster of Mary Shelley's novel.

From the DCUguide: (http://www.dcuguide.com/profile.php?name=solomongrundy)

Solomon Grundy possesses tremendous strength and stamina, the level of which varies with his different incarnations. Sometimes he can be held by a group of normal humans, on other occasions, even Superman has not been able to defeat him. The weird elemental energy that imbues his form with pseudo-life makes him virtually indestructible - he is impervious to bullets, fire, and extreme cold, and can survive indefinitely without food, water, or oxygen. The only thing that has ever been able to hurt him, was the Mist's special toxins, developed to take out Grundy's plant tissue body.

Even when he is destroyed, he has always been reborn sooner or later. The soul of Cyrus Gold enjoys his pseudo-life through Grundy, even though Gold's whole personality is never present in Grundy's "life". Grundy's personality differs from incarnation to incarnation, but he seems to retain some memories of his experiences from one time to the next.

Grundy has also proven to be able to absorb certain forms of energy and manipulate them at will. This ability has always been subconscious to the point of being accidental, though, but it would suggest that Grundy is even more powerful that he has the intelligence to realize.

The Grundy version that ended up on the blue planet gained normal human intelligence, and made contact with the Green, thereby being able to control the planet's plant life.

Solomon Grundy is one of the few supervillains to be besung in a pop song. In the lyrics of the Crash Test Dummies: "Superman never made any money, for saving the world from Solomon Grundy."

And regarding his birth place, Slaughter Swamp:

From Barbelith (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Slaughter_Swamp)

The dank, miasmal birthplace of Solomon Grundy, and the setting in which we first see Spyder meet with the Seven Unknown Men.

It's a wetland located on the outskirts of Gotham City (so who knows what kind of industrial pollutants have been seeping into those waters).

We are told that Slaughter Swamp is one of those in-between places, where things grow soft and change. It is certainly a place of transformation for Cyrus Gold and Thomas Ludlow Dalt. This 'in-between' nature may also make it an attractive entry point into our universe for the Sheeda invasion. It is one of the first places we see Sheeda insect riders appear.

[Groovie Mann]

the internet is a wholy remarkable tool to gather information and porn.

now we got two weeks before getting TWO! seven soldiers books.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
the internet is a wholy remarkable tool to gather information and porn.

now we got two weeks before getting TWO! seven soldiers books.

Both books starring lovely women.

I think Bulleteer is going to take everyone by suprise. Rumor has it that it will deal directly with the events of Seven Soldiers #0.

[4DGlasses]

UPDATE -

Zatanna #4 has been bumped back AGAIN to be released on 11-26-05, same day as Frankenstein #1.

D'OH!!!!

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
UPDATE -

Zatanna #4 has been bumped back AGAIN to be released on 11-26-05, same day as Frankenstein #1.

D'OH!!!!

WHAT!?! DC should go to his ____in' house and beat him upside the head.

What the hell is taking him so long? And it can't be the Marvel job because Frazer Irving has got one too and he draws, inks, and colors his books!

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
WHAT!?! DC should go to his ____in' house and beat him upside the head.

What the hell is taking him so long? And it can't be the Marvel job because Frazer Irving has got one too and he draws, inks, and colors his books!

Is it Sook and Gray's fault, or does Bulleteer NEED to come out before Zatanna #4 to avoid confusion like the SK #4/Zatanna #3 thing?

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Is it Sook and Gray's fault, or does Bulleteer NEED to come out before Zatanna #4 to avoid confusion like the SK #4/Zatanna #3 thing?

seeing as x-factor is delayed form its original launch date... yeah, sooks the problem here.

[Blind pugh]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Zatanna #4 has been moved to a Nov. 2 release, same day as the potential sleeper hit Bulleteer!

Cool, was worried I might of missed it!

[David Bird]

My review of Klarion #4 is here (http://www.paperbackreader.com/review.php?ReviewID=1029).

[Groovie Mann]

ahem. my seven soldiers thread is the best seven soldiers thread.

[thefellowship12]

There's a preview of Bulleteer #1 at Buzzscope (http://www.buzzscope.com/features.php?id=1152)

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
ahem. my seven soldiers thread is the best seven soldiers thread.

Who would even question?

[Groovie Mann]

damn it bird, stop changing your sig!

[Groovie Mann]

my complete geekness strikes again.

Seven Soldiers of Victory Soundtrack Disc 1
Prelude
Blur the Technicolor-White Zombie
Ice Cold Man-Probot
Shining Knight
Bloodline-Slayer
I'm the One-Static X
Little Rose-Lucia
Manhattan Guardian
Enfilade-At the Drive-In
Let's Stay Together-Al Green
Do You Fear(For Your Child?)-My Life w/the Thrill Kill Kult
Zatanna
Maybe-N.E.R.D.
Gothic-London After Midnight
Pantomine-Orgy
Klarion the Witch Boy
The Beautiful Dead-The Killing Joke
Burn the Witch-Queens oft he Stone Age
Disobedience-Pig Orchestra


Yeah, I'm totally a comic geek.

[thefellowship12]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
damn it bird, stop changing your sig!

Yeah your Klarion one rocked,

Cool music list for the comics, Groovieman, shame I haven't heard any of those tracks before

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by thefellowship12
Yeah your Klarion one rocked,

Cool music list for the comics, Groovieman, shame I haven't heard any of those tracks before

a lot of its udnerground. in a ltitle while i'll explain how i decided on the tracks.

[Groovie Mann]

Prelude
Blur the Technicolor-White Zombie
(for the trippy opening sequence with Spider. off of Asro-Creep: 2000)
Ice Cold Man-Probot
("devoid of light, filled with pain-ice cold man watches earth die" just felt like neh-buh-lohs theme when he showed up at the end of the first bookend. off of probots self-titled album. probot is Dave Grohls metal act with various metal men. this one with Napalm Deaths lead singer.)
Shining Knight
Bloodline-Slayer
(c'mon, its slayer. plus its about evil reigning down. sounds liekt he opening to SK #1 to me. off of God Hates Us All.)
I'm the One-Static X
(sounds like sir justin(e) knows that its up to her to defeat gloriana/sheeda-queen. off of latest Start A War.)
Little Rose-Lucia
(kind've works with the fight between galahad and justin, even if its more a pop/rock tarck and not metal. sorry, pop/goth/rock track. she is married to the self-proclaimed father of industrial rock. off of From the Land of Volcanos)
Manhattan Guardian
Enfilade-At the Drive In
(after you get past the weird phone call opening the song just seemed to fit the tone of the first couple issues. odd and i subsittued, in my head, the freight train and railroad tarcks for subway trains and tracks. off of their album Relationship of Command)
Let's Stay Together-Al Green
(that ones for Carla and Jake, Guardian #3. its on the greatest hit albums. ou know there's always more than one.)
Do You Fear(For Your Child?)-My Life w/the Thrill Kill Kult
(had to add my own name sake in there. anyway, really dark old school industrial track with very imaginitive lyrics that i think works considering the kids, newsboy army, in Guardian #4. off of I See Good Spirits, I See Bad Spirits)
Zatanna
Maybe-N.E.R.D.
(hard to explain. i basically liked the line "you thought your life was going to be easy, you thought you ahd it all but you found you were wrong." N.E.R.D was the band with uper-producer Pharell off the album Fly Or Die. surprisingly its incredibly good. depsite Pharell sucking.)
Gothic-London After Midnight
(you needed some goth tunes. basically i applied it to her "dream boy" stalking her in issue #2. don't know the album, downloaded this song.)
Pantomine-Orgy
(more for Misty here. plus the line in the chorus dealing with a "real life fantasy" helped. off of Candyass.)
Klarion the Witch Boy
Beautiful Dead-The Killing Joke
(works on two levels. Grundys, and anti-conformity. Klarion #1. off the album Extremities, Dirt, and Various Repressed Emotions.)
Burn the Witch-Queens of the Stone Age
(skipped right to the last chapter with this one. off of the latest, Lullabies to Paralyze.)
Disobedience-Pig Orchestra
(figrued this would be a better ending track. cover of a KMFDM song but since the same guys singing and the political overtones no longer included, i thought it worked better for Klarion. plus that creepy goth lounge sound. off of the cover album KMFDM Tribute: Don't Blow Your Cover)

i have too much tiem on my hands. i came up with this idea one day at work and finally tweaked it to my liking.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
damn it bird, stop changing your sig!

:p

[Groovie Mann]

bulleteer wedensday! yay!

[Groovie Mann]

so, what does everyone think? i got to collect my thoughts a little more but so far i thought it was and interesting and solid first issue.

[melperfect]

I love it!

No surprise considering the stellar quality of the rest of the 7S books.
I love the Bulleteer's design, simple yet slick.

Bring on Frankenstein! :D

...and Zatanna #4! :mad:

I can't wait for Infinite Crisis to be over, with Grant Morrison working in some sort of editorial capacity I'm really excited to see how his unique creativity affects other (more recognizable) characters in the DCU.

[Groovie Mann]

at first i thought the outfit looked silly but i started tot hink about it mroe and i felt it was part of the point and the charm.

however i don't see how this is morrisons "bendis book." because i think bendis couldn't have done this story in no less then 4 issues. :D

[David Bird]

Bulleteer was fun, though all set-up, but looks whats in store for issue two!:

Who killed the Seven Soldiers? More shattering secrets of the Seven Soldiers are revealed in this special issue which unfolds directly from events in the best-selling SEVEN SOLDIERS #0!

Together with a dying FBI agent, the Bulleteer investigates the disappearance of six bargain-basement Super Heroes, uncovering mysteries dating back decades... and beyond. Alix Harrower finds herself drawn deeper into a world she wants no part of as her journey into the dark underbelly of the hero dream brings her face-to-face with her first super-villain!

Plus, from the grave — the return of the Vigilante!

[Groovie Mann]

i'm seriously excited for that.

[4DGlasses]

Here's for the site.

Seven Soldiers - Bulleteer #1
Ballistic: How The Bulleteer Began

Writing - Grant Morrison
Art - Yanick Paquette, Michael Bair

Lance Harrower attempts to perfect a metal coating called Smartskin to turn himself and his wife Alix into superheroes. The Smartskin bonds to the skin and renders the flesh indestructible. The Smartskin has effectively been used on a mouse, but has not been stable enough to cover a person. Meanwhile, Lance plays to Alix's vanity saying that the Smartskin will help them obtain immortality and preserve her looks. Alix brushes off her husband's thoughtless comments and leaves, only to return later, finding Lance covered in Smartskin and complaining of difficulty breathing. As Alix phones 911, Lance touches her hand. The Smartskin makes contact with Alix's body and spreads over every inch of her. Lance dies as a result, but Alix survives her transformation. While going through Lance's belongings, she reads his e-mails from a girl he received through a superhero fetish website. The horrible things he wrote in his e-mails hurts Alix so bad that she runs through a wall into the night in blind fury of emotion. She comes across a train wreck and saves a few citizens, jump-starting her superhero career after losing her career as a teacher.

Curious as to who she was talking to at the end. Her doctor maybe?

Was the train wreck something from the other books? Guardian maybe?

[Banana_Oil]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
at first i thought the outfit looked silly but i started tot hink about it mroe and i felt it was part of the point and the charm.

however i don't see how this is morrisons "bendis book." because i think bendis couldn't have done this story in no less then 4 issues. :D

Surely Zatanna is the "Bendis Book."

Given that Morrison is aiming for a different style in each series, my view on the styles:

SS #0: Robinson's Starman

Guardian: 70's era "goofy" Kirby

Shining Knight: Early/mid 70s fantasy (Kaluta, Wrightson, Marato, Smith, etc.)

Zatanna: Current comics (Bendis, Millar, Johns, Rucka, etc.).

Klarion: This has the spirit of British comics, wouldn't be out of place in the pages of 2000AD at all.

Mr. Miracle: Need to see more, this could be like the post-Kirby New Gods/Mr. Miracle or like an 80s DC reboot.

Bulleteer: Totally 90s cheesecake comic (Witchblade, Gen13, Ghost).

My guess is Frankenstein will be an 80s "violent humor" book in the vein of Lobo or The Mask.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Banana_Oil
Surely Zatanna is the "Bendis Book."

Given that Morrison is aiming for a different style in each series, my view on the styles:

SS #0: Robinson's Starman

Guardian: 70's era "goofy" Kirby

Shining Knight: Early/mid 70s fantasy (Kaluta, Wrightson, Marato, Smith, etc.)

Zatanna: Current comics (Bendis, Millar, Johns, Rucka, etc.).

Klarion: This has the spirit of British comics, wouldn't be out of place in the pages of 2000AD at all.

Mr. Miracle: Need to see more, this could be like the post-Kirby New Gods/Mr. Miracle or like an 80s DC reboot.

Bulleteer: Totally 90s cheesecake comic (Witchblade, Gen13, Ghost).

My guess is Frankenstein will be an 80s "violent humor" book in the vein of Lobo or The Mask.

i see your point, and agree with a lot of what you said, but i believe morrison went on record as syaing bulleteer was his bendis book.

[David Bird]

I have mixed feelings about the promo for the next issue of Bulleteer. On the one hand, I am glad to see the story reconnect to 7S #0; but, on the other hand it looks like it will shoot down a little theory I had.

In Zatanna #1, page 4, Gimmix says

Being sexually abused by shape-shifting monsters on the eve of a blossoming career as Gimmick Girl is a problem, okay?

I have always wondered if this was a reference to what had happened in 7S #0. Conventional (internet) wisdom says that it isn't. That it places the Zee story prior to it. But I don't think thats necessarily so.

In fact, I could still be right. It looks less likely, sure, but we'll see.

[David Bird]

For an interesting synopsis of the first Seven Soldier's adventures, click here (http://members.optusnet.com.au/grafito/7SoV/).

[Groovie Mann]

Seven Soldiers of Victory Vol. 1 TPB (DC Comics) - RANDY: Collecting the Seven Soldiers mega-event/separate miniseries was going to be a tricky business, but DC seems to have come up with the stupidest possible way of doing it. Basically, this first volume contains two issues of Guardian, Zatanna and Shining Knight as well as Seven Soldiers #0 and one issue of Klarion. The result will be a trade paperback with no ending, just several cliffhangers, and if the lame endings of the miniseries hadn't put the lie to the Seven Soldiers promise of self-contained miniseries, this bone-headed trade plan certainly does. Morrison is going to have to pull off a hell of an ending in Seven Soldiers #1 to head off the disappointment I've found in the latter half of the Seven Soldiers event. (page 86)

DAVE: I've been disappointed too, but I've got more faith in Morrison pulling it out and I've got to figure that the collection plan is in some way key to the stories. The interwoven events between the issues, presumably, will become more pronounced when read side-by-side. But, yes, the notion that these series stand alone has certainly been put to the lie.

RANDY: That's what bugs me, I think, more than wondering whether or not this collection scheme "fits Morrison's plan" or anything like that. If it all is supposed to read like one big story and that's it, I suppose that's cool, but that's not the way we were sold on this book, and I kind of liked the experimentation implied in seven different stories that could overlap but didn't have to. As is, it's a lot less cool than that, it's basically yet another 30-part crossover with a bizarre publishing scheme. In fairness, it's a 30-part crossover with good to great writing and stunning art, but still... disappointed in the realization that it's not as innovative as I'd hoped.



dumbass', Seven Soldiers is the best thing out now.

[DejaEntendu]

i have the #0 issue and the first issues of Mister Miracle, Zatanna and Bulleteer and i really enjoy them. i'm wondering if is hould catch up on single issues or if i should wait for the trades. i know the first is in january but i have bad buying habits anyways

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by DejaEntendu
i have the #0 issue and the first issues of Mister Miracle, Zatanna and Bulleteer and i really enjoy them. i'm wondering if is hould catch up on single issues or if i should wait for the trades. i know the first is in january but i have bad buying habits anyways

DC is odd about trades so thats hard to say. you might want to do both. get the trade and catch up on the rest of the single issues.

[DejaEntendu]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
DC is odd about trades so thats hard to say. you might want to do both. get the trade and catch up on the rest of the single issues.

i was thinking about that. i'm gonna have to search for shinning knight issue 1 tho. one of my LCS's has all of the issues but that one

[Groovie Mann]

the trade will have it included if you can find it.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
dumb asses, Seven Soldiers is the best thing out now.

I'm enjoying every issue so far. The my least favorite was Klarion #3, but it grew on me after the fifth re-read. The kid gang element was pretty slick in hindsight. I loved this panel:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/kickinballs.gif" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

SQUARE IN THE NUTS!!! :D :D :D

DC DID market Seven Soldiers as independent minis. Big lie, but one I'm sure we can forgive them for, seeing as how most of the books have been (in most people's opinion) Grade B or higher.

And anyone who likes Ed McGuiness and Dexter Vines will LOVE Cameron Stewart. Guardian has had the best art so far IMO.

[Banana_Oil]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
I'm enjoying every issue so far. The my least favorite was Klarion #3, but it grew on me after the fifth re-read. The kid gang element was pretty slick in hindsight. I loved this panel:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/kickinballs.gif" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

SQUARE IN THE NUTS!!! :D :D :D

DC DID market Seven Soldiers as independent minis. Big lie, but one I'm sure we can forgive them for, seeing as how most of the books have been (in most people's opinion) Grade B or higher.

And anyone who likes Ed McGuiness and Dexter Vines will LOVE Cameron Stewart. Guardian has had the best art so far IMO.

I thought it well below Stewart's usual. You didn't think he was intentionally copying Darick Robinson for this story?

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Banana_Oil
I thought it well below Stewart's usual. You didn't think he was intentionally copying Darick Robinson for this story?

I had to google that name. The art did look VERY similar.

I thought the art in Guardian was great, regardless. Better than Jim Lee IMO. I like some his art, but it really is distracting in ASBatman.

[DejaEntendu]

wow pasqual ferry only drew the first issue of mister miracle? that blows.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by DejaEntendu
wow pasqual ferry only drew the first issue of mister miracle? that blows.

Word. His Adam Strange ruled.

The new guy, Billy Dallas Patton, looks decent.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/7SMisterMiracle3.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

[nolanjwerner]

Billy Dallas Patton looks too conventional and manga for my taste. Ill give him a chance though.




Okay, I've only read Bulleteer once but I've never been that disappointed with a Morrison comic since NXM 141. It just seemed really conventional for me. Ill see how it holds up after another reading or two.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Billy Dallas Patton looks too conventional and manga for my taste. Ill give him a chance though.



he is very much manga influenced. I saw his website. But I like that style when done right and the bits I've seen I think he'll do fine. He is no Ferry, but i'd rather him do his own thing and not ape Ferrys look.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
he is very much manga influenced. I saw his website. But I like that style when done right and the bits I've seen I think he'll do fine. He is no Ferry, but i'd rather him do his own thing and not ape Ferrys look.

Agreed. How much pull does Morrison have when it comes to who he is working with?

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
he is very much manga influenced. I saw his website. But I like that style when done right and the bits I've seen I think he'll do fine. He is no Ferry, but i'd rather him do his own thing and not ape Ferrys look.


i sawe his site. Ill give him a chance, he might turn out to work bette rthen Ferry. But Morrison should rewrite the series or at least revise it for the new artist (which i'm not sure if its going to happen)

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by David Bird
Agreed. How much pull does Morrison have when it comes to who he is working with?


Well I've never seen a Morrison comic where he hasn't been able to get a decent performance out of an artist. He always seems to be able to write to an artists strengths.

Just imagine if Frank Quitely drew Seaguy and Cameron Stewart drew We3, two totally differnet books.

[Groovie Mann]

cameron stewart and frazer irving are the only two i know he chose. but then stewart was originally suppose to do zatanna until the editor suggested guardian instead. inker mike bair, i believe, was able to help simone bianchi get his portfolio to dc and then got the job. editor tomasi, i believed, chose all the other artists.

i do remember JH Willaims said that Morrison rewrites the dialogue after seeing the finished pages.

as for changing scripts, i wouldn't be too surprised. because zatanna didn't turn out like it was originally solicited and so far mr. miracle, at least from the first issue, hasn't touched on the two things that were originally mentioned: scott free and oberon as circus performers. he might've changed it for paxton.

edited: notice we're on page 7?

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
cameron stewart and frazer irving are the only two i know he chose. but then stewart was originally suppose to do zatanna until the editor suggested guardian instead. inker mike bair, i believe, was able to help simone bianchi get his portfolio to dc and then got the job. editor tomasi, i believed, chose all the other artists.

i do remember JH Willaims said that Morrison rewrites the dialogue after seeing the finished pages.

as for changing scripts, i wouldn't be too surprised. because zatanna didn't turn out like it was originally solicited and so far mr. miracle, at least from the first issue, hasn't touched on the two things that were originally mentioned: scott free and oberon as circus performers. he might've changed it for paxton.

edited: notice we're on page 7?



Wasn't Shining Knight supposed to be The OC meets lord of the Rings? I saw some LOTR but not much OC.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Wasn't Shining Knight supposed to be The OC meets lord of the Rings? I saw some LOTR but not much OC.

oh yeah. we didn't get a attractive teenage girl who ahd problems with her mother to have a relationship with justin. damn, that would've made for an even etter twist to justin turning out to be a girl.

damn you morrison!

[David Bird]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
Wasn't Shining Knight supposed to be The OC meets lord of the Rings? I saw some LOTR but not much OC.

Thank the Lord, or Morrison, or whoever, for small miracles!

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
oh yeah. we didn't get a attractive teenage girl who ahd problems with her mother to have a relationship with justin. damn, that would've made for an even etter twist to justin turning out to be a girl.

damn you morrison!



Thats more Crying Game then OC ;)

[furioso2012]

Please forgive me for farting in church, BUT...

...I really did not like BULLETEER very much at all. It lacked the invention of the other (brilliant) series. I know GM will take some cool turns with the tale, but this first ish felt undercooked and rushed.

Anybody care to throw down some analysis and opinion on this series?

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by furioso2012
Please forgive me for farting in church, BUT...

...I really did not like BULLETEER very much at all. It lacked the invention of the other (brilliant) series. I know GM will take some cool turns with the tale, but this first ish felt undercooked and rushed.

Anybody care to throw down some analysis and opinion on this series?

LOL! "Fart in church," I think this is the only church where that behavior might actually encouraged! :D

Here's a super-duper Bulleteer analysis from the review thread posted by aceatkins:

So far Bulleteer is easily the most mainstream of the 7S books. On the surface there's really nothing here we haven't read before. It even reads lighter than any of the other 7S minis--there's not that much packed into this issue. And although I am a fan of Paquette's artwork, and it's well-suited here, I agree that it's the "weakest" of the artists (although that depends what you're looking for--I think Morrison is deliberately looking for a vaguely pornographic/cheesecakey straight superhero tale here, and for that he's fantastic). Still, some interesting dovetailing with the main 7S themes/details emerge already:

-The last name "Harrower." No way that's a coincidence. However, it's almost TOO obvious. Is Alix somehow involved with the Sheeda and The Harrowing? Perhaps a descendent of Mr. M? Or would it be her husband, from whom she (presumably) took the name? Was his Smartskin intended for use by the Sheeda? Interesting that he'd go into weapons development to begin with. I still come back to Alix, though. How did she survive the process while her husband did not? Certainly suggests something...different is up with her.

-The reluctant hero. None of our Seven Soldiers sought out the heroing life, or at least not the role they're thrust into here. Shining Knight was shunted into our time as part of a horrible mistake; Guardian took up the shield to make a living and regain his pride; Zatanna was following in her father's footsteps; Klarion was simply a curious rebel; Mister Miracle just wants fame. Alix basically has no choice but to become a hero, or live as an impoverished freak. Plus, it's great revenge on her cad of a husband. Interesting to point out that none of the other groups of seven we've seen have been comprised completely of members that essentially had to be coerced into doing good.

-The transformative hero. Again, all of our Soldiers have been "becoming" something else or transforming some part of themselves. Shining Knight was a woman pretending to be a man. Guardian is a working man trying to recast himself as something extraordinary. Zatanna is trying to redeem herself from a screwed up past. Klarion is trying to free himself from his societal shackles. And...well, I'm not sure what the hell's up with Mister Miracle yet. But there's certainly a transformative/redemptive angle to all of these characters. Alix has become something more than human, and yet at the same time is trying to recover her lost humanity.

-The familiar/sidekick. Knight has his flying horse. Guardian has Baby Brain. Zatanna has Misty. Klarion has Teekl. Again, jury's still out on Mister Miracle. But Alix has a Superskinned mouse named Metal Mickey. None of the other groups of Soldiers we've seen have had sidekicks as such. An interesting difference.

-Looking to the past for inspiration for the future. This is maybe stretching it, since part of this whole project was to reinvision Golden Age properties that'd been collecting dust. But all of these Soldiers--Knight from the past; Guardian taking orders from a Golden Age hero; Zatanna following in her father's footsteps; Klarion coming from a place stuck in the Puritanical age; Mister Miracle becoming a modern day Houdini; Bulleteer basically taking her Golden Age counterpart's identity--have a kind of link to the past. The same could be said of the Vigilante-led group, though.

-In the e-mails to his super teen fantasy girl, Alix's husband refers to Alix as being "a piece of bad tailoring." An oblique reference to the Mystery Men of Slaughter Swamp and their special sewing machine?

-Although there's no specific reference to black holes, which have been a popular theme in several of ther other S7 titles, there is an interesting segment in which a great deal of attention is paid to the dying Mr. Harrower's wedding ring. They seem to try to take it off him, hoping to find exposed skin while he's suffocating from the Superskin. But it seems like they can't, followed by a close shot of the ring (or, if you will, a circle/hole) in which the word "impervious" appears on panel. Is this a metaphor for the inescapable circle of life and death? (A big part of Mr. Harrower's reasons for coming up with Superskin specifically is to break that cycle and keep him and Alix alive and young and famous.) Could that "inevitiablile/inescapable" theme tie into the whole black hole thing?

-Notice that the white male in the book (the traditional super hero template) is killed off and instead a female is our lead. All of these Soldiers are minorities: Knight is a woman (or perhaps transgendered), as are Zatanna and Bulleteer. Guardian and Miracle are both black men. Klarion is blue, for god's sake. And Frankenstein is...many things, I guess. But above all a CORPSE. I just think it's curious--and almost certainly intentional--that none of our leads are "typical" leads.

-Next issue box suggests a visit with the presumed dead Vigilante, so there's your connection to a previous Soldier team, which all of the other minis (save Miracle) have touched on already.

-I didn't notice any explicit numerological pieces, although the time of the accident--4:45am--may be significant. I honeslty don't know.

-Alix is having dreams about death, a common trait for most of the Soldiers. In fact, they all seem to have a death wish...

[Proud Texan]

OK, I've gotten every issue so far, and here's how I rank the First Issue of each title in terms of enjoyment:


1. Bulleteer
2. Zatanna
3. Klarion
4. Shining Knight
5. Mister Miracle
6. Manhatten Guardian


Now, of those I ended up enjoying the Manhatten Guardian far more than Klarion or the Shining Knight.

Zatanna has been great, but the delays are irritating.

Mister Miracle...I'll comment more after the next issue.

I know that the focus of this series is Morrison's grand supernatural epic, but what I hope doesn't get lost is the fact that there are some seriously good quality superhero comics going on here!

I'd buy another miniseries with the Manhatten Guardian, even tho initially it was my least favorite. Same with Bulleteer and of course Zatanna.

Overall this has just been a fun event!

[furioso2012]

Cheers 4D. I'm still slightly dissapointed by the issue, but will just have to wait till GM works his usual S7 magic.

[Groovie Mann]

1. 4:45 means 4+4+5=13, the unlucky number

2. Alix is the feminine short version of Alexander which means "to defend man."

3. You can basically say the motherboxxx of Mr. Miracle is his sidekick.

The stuff about the email was nice. Like the blackhole theory but i'm not sure how to put that with the rest. I remember Guadrian and Miracle but not Klarion, Zatanna or Knight.

Still I'll include bits and peices together for the next overview update.

[thefellowship12]

Originally posted by Proud Texan
OK, I've gotten every issue so far, and here's how I rank the First Issue of each title in terms of enjoyment:


1. Bulleteer
2. Zatanna
3. Klarion
4. Shining Knight
5. Mister Miracle
6. Manhatten Guardian


Now, of those I ended up enjoying the Manhatten Guardian far more than Klarion or the Shining Knight.

Zatanna has been great, but the delays are irritating.

Mister Miracle...I'll comment more after the next issue.

I know that the focus of this series is Morrison's grand supernatural epic, but what I hope doesn't get lost is the fact that there are some seriously good quality superhero comics going on here!

I'd buy another miniseries with the Manhatten Guardian, even tho initially it was my least favorite. Same with Bulleteer and of course Zatanna.

Overall this has just been a fun event!

What was so bad about the first issue of Manhattan Guardian? the first issue is great, with the Subway pirates and the job interview and the art. I'd say it was the best first issue with Klarion a close second, Zatanna was baffling though, it took like 4 reads to understand most of it.

[David Bird]

I didn't think Bulleteer was that bad. Perhaps not as good as some of the others, but good nevertheless. The whole issue was set up, it doesn't really stand on its own, but there are three issues to go, and I am confident that things will get much more interesting.

[Groovie Mann]

before we get crazy, both frankenstein! and zatanna are pushed back to the 23rd. i know, i know. but i have an actual valid theory for this one.

actually the 23rd is probably the weakest week of the month because of the 5 wedensdays. maybe they're just moving comics into that day to increase sells. i know for sure i had only planned on picking up 3 books that week.

yep, everytime theres 5 wedensdays in a month the fourth week seems to be dead because both marvel and DC put out their largets number of products on the last week. so that extra week gets thrown a couple issues.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
1. 4:45 means 4+4+5=13, the unlucky number

2. Alix is the feminine short version of Alexander which means "to defend man."

3. You can basically say the motherboxxx of Mr. Miracle is his sidekick.

The stuff about the email was nice. Like the blackhole theory but i'm not sure how to put that with the rest. I remember Guadrian and Miracle but not Klarion, Zatanna or Knight.

Still I'll include bits and peices together for the next overview update.

Newsboy Army Member and Field reporter Groovie Mann on this motherf*cker!

Rumor has it Zatanna has been bumped to 11-09-05, this Wednesday.

[crosses fingers]

[DejaEntendu]

this is probably going to sound stupid but i just bought all first issues and i'm wondering if there's a specific order in which to read these? do i wait for all 4 of one series or just read away?

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by DejaEntendu
this is probably going to sound stupid but i just bought all first issues and i'm wondering if there's a specific order in which to read these? do i wait for all 4 of one series or just read away?

techncially, no. they can be read individually whichever way you want. however if you read it in release date order you can pick up the interlocking elements better. the shipping list in the back has the release date order so you can go by that.

it really doesn't matter.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Newsboy Army Member and Field reporter Groovie Mann on this motherf*cker!

Rumor has it Zatanna has been bumped to 11-09-05, this Wednesday.

[crosses fingers]

that and frakenstein on 23rd now. damn.

[Groovie Mann]

random bump

[Croaker]

Finally got around to reading Bulleteer (kept it until the last so I could really enjoy it), and while it wasn't as mind blowing as some of the other issues, it was still really good.


I don't really have anything to add to the discussion except that I haven't seen anyone mention the possible tie-in between the silver skin stuff (what was it called again?) and the Cauldron that grants eternal youth. Might they not be related in some way? Could the Sheeda have been using Alix's husband to create another way to gain immortality or never-ending youth? Maybe seducing him through his obsession with teenaged superheroes?

[Proud Texan]

Originally posted by thefellowship12
What was so bad about the first issue of Manhattan Guardian? the first issue is great, with the Subway pirates and the job interview and the art. I'd say it was the best first issue with Klarion a close second, Zatanna was baffling though, it took like 4 reads to understand most of it.

It just didn't pique my interest as much as those others did in their first issues. Honestly, the Subway Pirate thing kind of bored me. Issues 3 and 4 were pretty sweet, tho. It turned out to be my favorite of the minis so far.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Proud Texan
OK, I've gotten every issue so far, and here's how I rank the First Issue of each title in terms of enjoyment:


1. Bulleteer
2. Zatanna
3. Klarion
4. Shining Knight
5. Mister Miracle
6. Manhatten Guardian



My ranking of first issues:

1. Shining Knight
2. Mister Miracle
3. Zatanna
4. Klarion
5. Bulleteer
6. Manhattan Guardian

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Proud Texan
OK, I've gotten every issue so far, and here's how I rank the First Issue of each title in terms of enjoyment:


1. Bulleteer
2. Zatanna
3. Klarion
4. Shining Knight
5. Mister Miracle
6. Manhatten Guardian



My ranking of first issues:

1. Shining Knight
2. Mister Miracle
3. Zatanna
4. Klarion
5. Bulleteer
6. Manhattan Guardian

[David Bird]

:confused:

Hadn't meant to post that yet.

Explanations:

The first two, Shining Knight and Mister Miracle, got me interested and excited about their repsective minis.

The next two, Zatanna and Klarion, got my interest, but at that point I still felt it could still go either way. As they now stand, I think they're great stories, but this is just the first issues.

The last two, Bulleteer and Manhattan Guardian were just set up to me. Not bad, per se, but if they were new series, and not a part of a bigger story, I don't know that I'd buy issues 2. In the case of Manhattan Guardian, I think it ended very strongly, but the first two issues did nothing for me. I think Bulleteer may pick up sooner, because the next issue ties directly into 7S #0.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Croaker
I don't really have anything to add to the discussion except that I haven't seen anyone mention the possible tie-in between the silver skin stuff (what was it called again?) and the Cauldron that grants eternal youth. Might they not be related in some way? Could the Sheeda have been using Alix's husband to create another way to gain immortality or never-ending youth? Maybe seducing him through his obsession with teenaged superheroes?

Lance Harrower's quest for immortality would make the Cauldron of Rebirth an ideal prize, but the Smartskin would be a close second. It bonds to the collagen in your skin, ligaments, and tendons. The ligaments and tendons bit is what gives the Smartskin wearer enhanced strength.

I'm sure if Mr. Melmoth was involved in a plot like the one you described, I wouldn't put it past him to try and use his great-great-great-great grandchildren from Limbo Town as models for the sidekick website. I got a pervy vibe from him in Klarion #4.

[KyleV]

So over the course of the last two days I read this entire thread! Yikes.

Because, of course, over the past week I went out and bought all the books -- took me three shops to do it, too.

A few things I didn't see anywhere (although I might have just missed them):

I, Spyder is from Starman, yes?
The Manhattan Guardian actually has 2 sidekicks at the end of his series, more indication that he's singular in the group.
I think Bulleteer is supposed to be about us, the audience. It'll be interesting to see what kind of sales numbers it gets because I'd be willing to bet it sold more than the other #1's.

Have we determined what the seven weapons are yet? Here's what I've thought of:

1) Justin's sword.
2) Guardian's helmet
3) Klarion's die
4) Misty's die
5) the cauldron (which is curious as it's not associated with ONE hero, appearing in a few of the books

It's interesting to note that, if we follow the "transformative hero" that 4D mentioned, Zatanna isn't actually one of the Seven Soldiers -- Misty is (which makes sense, particularly if she has one of the weapons).

Anyone else notice the formatting of these books? I noticed it most specifically with Manhattan Guardian and Zatanna -- two issues of a singular story, then two issues connecting the series to the others. Klarion is similar, as he gets to Blue Rafters after issue #2, which makes it a natural breaking point (perhaps this explains the trade). Shining Knight is similar, too, as #2 ends with him reclaiming himself and his motivation.

Man, and to think I actually tried to wait for the trade on these...

[KyleV]

Huh.

Solicitations for February:

SEVEN SOLDIERS: BULLETEER #3
Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Yanick Paquette & Serge LaPointe
Working as a bodyguard at a super-hero convention, Alix Harrower - the Bulleteer - finds herself enmeshed in the bizarre relationship between Li'l Hollywood, a faded super-impressionist, and her sidekick. As one tragedy unfolds, a second threatens when Alix finds herself in the sights of the mysterious, undead super-archer - Spyder - assassin for hire!
On sale February 1 • 3 of 4 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

SEVEN SOLDIERS: FRANKENSTEIN #3
Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Doug Mahnke
When a bizarre toxic spill defies the laws of nature and threatens the whole human race with destruction, it looks like even Frankenstein could be in over his head, and the Monster must turn to an amazing new ally for help. Enter The Bride and meet the incredible agents of the Super Human Advanced Defense Executive!
On sale February 15 • 3 of 4 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

So are we assuming that Lil' Hollywood is Grimmix, since the super-hero convention bit was already introduced? That would definitely introduce some questions as far as chronology is concerned.

As for Frankenstein, I've got nothin'. The Bride? His sidekick in the end, perhaps? And S.H.A.D.E.?

[David Bird]

This week we get Zatanna #4 and Frankie #1. DC put out three of four issues of the first four storylines before getting out the last three, so the Zee issues marks their end. And this will give us 20 down and 10 more to go, including bookends.

[nolanjwerner]

So much cooler if you read them in the intended pubication order. Guardian 4 really brings everything together.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Klarion the Witch Boy #3
Art by Frazer Irving...

Red place=Mars? Why not? They came through the Erdel gate and any self-respecting DC head knows Erdel is the last name of the good doctor who brought Martian Manhunter from Mars.

Hey, is that a reference to Runaways in the final panel on page 1?

Part 4 Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1228701#post1228701) [/B]

Looks like you're right! This is what Frankenstein #2 promises:

The Monster goes to Mars! Frankenstein travels to the red planet to put an end to a new kind of slave trade. But when he goes up against Melmoth, last seen in the pages of KLARION #4, the Monster will face the fight of his life, and a horrifying secret will be revealed.

[Groovie Mann]

what are you? dense or just retard? of course i was right, i'm the god damn groovie mann!

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
what are you? dense or just retard? of course i was right, i'm the god damn groovie mann!


Sigh! How many years is it going to be before we stop hearing that one? ;) :p

[furioso2012]

I was a tad dissapointed with BULLETEER, but FRANKENSTEIN was a major pleasure to read, as was the concluding chapter of Zatanna. Let's hope there are no more longish delays in the publication schedule...

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by furioso2012
I was a tad dissapointed with BULLETEER, but FRANKENSTEIN was a major pleasure to read, as was the concluding chapter of Zatanna. Let's hope there are no more longish delays in the publication schedule...

I actually prefer Bulleteers debut issue over Frankenstein. I don't know... maybe a few more reads will change my mind.

[kennyab]

Spoilers for Zatanna #4 and Frankenstein #1 ahead!

Originally posted by KyleV
Have we determined what the seven weapons are yet? Here's what I've thought of:

1) Justin's sword.
2) Guardian's helmet
3) Klarion's die
4) Misty's die
5) the cauldron (which is curious as it's not associated with ONE hero, appearing in a few of the books


We found out in Z #4 that Gwydion is actually one of the seven weapons. Other possibilities are the Archangel Michael's sword from Frankenstein #1 and a Motherbox, since the Fourth World is going to be involved. Should Misty's die and Klarion's die be considered separate weapons, or will they have a greater function when put together (especially because you can't roll a 7 without having both of them).

So how's this for an updated list of possibilities:

1) Justin's sword
2) The Dice
3) The Cauldren
4) Gwydion
5) Michael's sword
6) Guardian's helmet (although it hasn't really seemed to have that special of a role or techno-mystical heritage)
7) Motherbox

Perhaps the Cauldren could end up becoming associated with the Bulleteer, as it works with the theme of immortality being explored in that book.

By the way, has it been shown how the dice got separated? I can't think of it off the top of my head.

[David Bird]

From Klarion #4, I think the dice are a single weapon.

[furioso2012]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
I actually prefer Bulleteers debut issue over Frankenstein. I don't know... maybe a few more reads will change my mind.

And maybe I'll warm up to BULLETEER by next issue (in fact I'm certain of it).

I found BULLETEER to be slightly "empty" of the megadense coolness and imagination on display in all the other series. Not that it's bad by any stretch of the imagination, just...ordinary, at least for GM and 7S.

FRANKENSTEIN was delightlfully weird and funky, IMO. Lotsa attitude, style, wit, plus the tease that Frank and Melmoth have a past. So I'm very psyched about what's next on this series, while I am only intrigued as to where GM will go with Alix (although I know it'll wind up impressing the heck out of me).

[DejaEntendu]

i read somewhere that Zatanna said something about the Crisis in issue 4. was it releveant to what's going on?

[estee]

Originally posted by DejaEntendu
i read somewhere that Zatanna said something about the Crisis in issue 4. was it releveant to what's going on?

I always thought so. She mentioned something in the first issues that she did something very bad, which was why she was having problems with her magic...that could be the seance-gone bad in issue one and/or Indentity Crisis.


And...

I liked Frankenstien...I like the fact that the Monster actually has a purpose...great art too.

[nolanjwerner]

Can someone remind me what the right order is?

Zatanna came out late. And I lost the list with the original order.


NM, its in the issues.





Okay, this weekend I'm reading it all the way through. I know Guardian 4 is the issue where it all seemed to come together (so far, who knows whats going on in the next issues).

[David Bird]

Strictly speaking, there is no right order. Morrison has been quite clear about how the books can be read in any order. But the books have a publication schedule at the back. Check the first issue of Shining Knight, it probably has the intended publication schedule. I say intended because I am at work and can't confirm it.

[nolanjwerner]

Yeah, I found it.


In the publication order the story makes a lot more sense and it has a lot more depth.

So now I get 23 issues of SS goodness tonight?

[David Bird]

Okay, random quotes and thoughts and spoilers from Zatanna #4 -- and from #2 & 3:




















From #2 & 3:

-- The rules of magic:

1. Nothing is what is seems. aka Disdirection.
2. Learn to fool the experts.
3. If you can’t keep it down, don’t bring it up.
4. Preparation. aka Always keep at least one card up your sleeve.
5. (Called the last rule: ) The magician has to vanish along with his trick.

From #3:

-- Zee's first reference to the events of Identity Crisis-Infinite Crisis:

Zatanna
You don’t know me. I’ve used my magic to change people’s lives and memories. I’m a lousy no-good spellaholic, and as far as I’m concerned, I can’t suffer enough.

-- The Sheeda Queen's motivations:

Gloriana Tenebrae, the Queen of Terror, to Neb-Buh-Lon
I intend to live forever. No need for a princess then. Take here into eternity’s woods and cut out her brain, Huntsman.

Note: She doesn't say "take her" but "take here." I don't think its a typo. She wants to cling to the past. The present -- here -- is nothing to her.

A couple of other points about issue #3:

-- At the end of this issue Zee uses her magic to summon Vanguard. This is her first use of magic.

-- Neb-Buh-Lon says he brought the Sheeda queen the brain of a 31st century telepathic savant. Is anyone familiar enough with the Legion of Super-heroes to know who this might be?

From #4:

Zatanna battles Zor, described at dcuguide.com as, "The evil "Anti-Spectre" who fought the Spectre twice in the 1940s, Zor ... was a giant black man with flaming eyes."

-- The Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp tell Zatanna they are the Time Tailors. That they “make sure the fabric of the universe is in good repair” they say that Zor is a renegade who “took it too far” by trying to change things, but they don’t explain who he was to them, or how he tried to change things.

Time Tailors
Before you helped us catch him, the renegade introduced a deadly plague into your world. We set seven hidden warriors into motion, but if they fail, if Sheeda strain isn’t stopped, the damage to your universe will be irreparable.

So the Sheeda are a virus introduced by Zor.

-- The Seven Unknown Men allow Zatanna to speak to her dead father:

Giovanni Zatara
The book of water is a kind heart. The book of earth is a graceful body. The book of air, a keen mind. The book of fire is strength of spirit. Do you understand? I wrote my books in you, Zatanna. You were my greatest spell, my gift to the world.

-- Gwydion, aka Herald of the Apocalypse, aka Zee's Ideal Man, aka Shapeless One, aka the letter 'g', confirms that he is one of the seven sought after weapons:

Gwydion
Gwydion the Merlin am I. Of seven treasures one.

-- Zee makes another reference, possibly, to DC's larger Crisis:

Zatanna
Wait until you have your very own crisis.

A couple of other points about #4:

-- Is Etta, who describes her expertise as Belgian Confectionary, Etta Candy? Wonder Woman's Etta Candy?

-- Zor tells Zatanna she wants a beard. A beard is slang for a gay or lesbian's heterosexual "date." A couple of gay men would go out, taking with them a couple of sympathetic women to pose as dates. Or lesbians would take men (hence "beards"). Now I don't think Zor was calling Zee a lesbian, rather he was accusing her of wanting to mask herself, to hide herself, in order to appear normal. She lost "faith" in herself, so she lost her powers.

[Marchie77]

there seems to be a mistake in the printing of the train crash and the followin years in frankie 1


also in frankie the woman is thinking"uglyhead" backwards as she runs off...

[KyleV]

David,

I wonder how much the beard comment is also about Zatanna wanting to be like her father (as getting his books was her one wish from the Seven Unknown Men). It would also make sense that she'd take on Misty as an apprentice as she probably thinks it's what her father did with her.

I also think it's less that the present is "nothing" and more that the present is nothing special aka all times are one. I think that's one of the overall themes of the series -- the past, present, and future are all simultaneous, which is why it doesn't really matter what order you read the books in.

I thought Zatanna, as a whole, was kind of hit and miss with me. I feel like Morrison was trying to stick with his usual pattern with the books (a seemingly self-contained adventure that leads to a crossover of sorts), but it felt much more jerky with Zatanna than it did with, say Manhattan Guardian or Klarion. And I don't think it was just the shipping times, as I just started reading all of the books three weeks ago.

I enjoyed Frankenstein but, again, it felt a little thin because, I think, of a need to tell a complete story in the first issue. I'm wondering if Morrison will stick with the teenage alienation theme as that could offer some great B-movie horror moments.

[AndrewHickey]

I'm pretty sure the beard comment was a dig at Alan Moore - a lot of Zatanna, particularly issue 1, seems to be commenting on Moore's work (issue 1 seemed to be an attempt to rewrite Promethea and show 'how it should be done'...).

In which case, and given the fourth wall breaking in this issue (and planned for Mister Miracle), and the fact that Zor introduced the Sheeda (and indeed Zor rhymes with Moore) , this seems to make the Sheeda a metaphor for the darkness in the DCU...

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
I'm pretty sure the beard comment was a dig at Alan Moore - a lot of Zatanna, particularly issue 1, seems to be commenting on Moore's work (issue 1 seemed to be an attempt to rewrite Promethea and show 'how it should be done'...).

In which case, and given the fourth wall breaking in this issue (and planned for Mister Miracle), and the fact that Zor introduced the Sheeda (and indeed Zor rhymes with Moore) , this seems to make the Sheeda a metaphor for the darkness in the DCU...


Wow, I never thought of that./

[AndrewHickey]

Also, I mentioned it on the thread, but is anyone else surprised how similar the Day Of Vengeance IC Special preview ( http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Jan_06previews/DoVspcPre.htm ) looks to the end of Zatanna #2? Looks to me like either:
a) Willingham's referencing 7S in some way
b) 7S Zatanna ties in in a big way or
c) 7S Zatanna was *MEANT* to tie in in a big way but now doesn't (hence rewrites and delays on that series).

The DOV special actually looks like it could originally have slotted between issues of Zatanna, but minor changes have been made to characters in one or both...

[AndrewHickey]

Also, just noticed that one of the thought bubbles in Frankenstein 1 is someone thinking "F= gamma m1m2/r^2" (the formula for an inverse square law like gravity). This is also the very first speech bubble in JLA Classified 1...

[David Bird]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
Also, just noticed that one of the thought bubbles in Frankenstein 1 is someone thinking "F= gamma m1m2/r^2" (the formula for an inverse square law like gravity). This is also the very first speech bubble in JLA Classified 1...

Whoa! Great spotting! I'll have to check it out.

[Groovie Mann]

about moore vs. morrison.

morrison has stated he liked promethea a lot in one interview and even said "whatever happenbed to the man of tomorrow? is one of his favorite superman stories. so i don't think his really commenting on moores output.

my understanding is morrison just makes these digs at moore because he thinks they're amusing. his supposedly went on record as calling moore "the other magician." its all play.

[KyleV]

I'd also like to think that Morrison understands his role as far as following Moore's lead is concerned.

Let's face facts: DC allowed Moore to do some pretty amazing stuff (What Ever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is the best example of this, moreso than Watchman as Superman WAS the company). Grant has been given Moore status at DC in a lot of ways -- he's the big name "weird" writer in their stable these days and I think he knows that. I think he's also very aware of how that worked out for Moore in the long run.

In fact, the argument could be made that Morrison's Seven Soldiers is both a more and less corporate version of Moore's America's Best Comics line, as Grant isn't creating any new characters (or at least doesn't own them), but he's not doing any direct homages to older characters (not to the extent that Moore has done in ABC).

I don't remember who mentioned it (4D? Groovie Man? Bird?), but I like the idea that Morrison and Moore were the pirates in Manhattan Guardian because, in the end, Grant has one of the pirates point out that All Beard was always the better pirate aka no matter what Grant does, Moore is still the originator.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by KyleV
I'd also like to think that Morrison understands his role as far as following Moore's lead is concerned.

Let's face facts: DC allowed Moore to do some pretty amazing stuff (What Ever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is the best example of this, moreso than Watchman as Superman WAS the company). Grant has been given Moore status at DC in a lot of ways -- he's the big name "weird" writer in their stable these days and I think he knows that. I think he's also very aware of how that worked out for Moore in the long run.

In fact, the argument could be made that Morrison's Seven Soldiers is both a more and less corporate version of Moore's America's Best Comics line, as Grant isn't creating any new characters (or at least doesn't own them), but he's not doing any direct homages to older characters (not to the extent that Moore has done in ABC).

I don't remember who mentioned it (4D? Groovie Man? Bird?), but I like the idea that Morrison and Moore were the pirates in Manhattan Guardian because, in the end, Grant has one of the pirates point out that All Beard was always the better pirate aka no matter what Grant does, Moore is still the originator.




Actually, it was Captain False Beard who kept the peace in Guardian.

[KyleV]

I don't have them in front of me, but in Manhattan Guardian #4 doesn't one of Captain No Beard's men tell him that Captain All Beard was always the better pirate?

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by KyleV
I don't have them in front of me, but in Manhattan Guardian #4 doesn't one of Captain No Beard's men tell him that Captain All Beard was always the better pirate?

issue #2, and yes, no beards man said all beard was always a better pirate.

on a related note, has alan moore ever acknowledged grant morrisons existence? maybe thats where this comes from.

[David Bird]

Great question! A little googling produced nothing. I dug out my copy of Alan Moore: Portrait of an Extraordinary Gentlemen*, a tribute by 145 very different people, and Morrison isn't among them.

*Well worth checking out, by the way.

[nolanjwerner]

Do you guys think maybe Morrison and Moore had a falling out at some point?

Or Moore just ignored Morrison?

Or that the two men never have actually met?

[nolanjwerner]

My other big question is why the girl was running off and she said Uglyhead in reverse.

[Groovie Mann]

Onto this Morrison/Moore thing again.

Even though Morrison ahs stated he does like a efw of Moores works it is possible that Morrison holds Moore, and also frank Miller, to what he might believe a deteoriartion of superhero comics. Morrison is all about silver age comics and heroes being heroes. Not really not one of the deconstructionsit writers though I think his played around with it. I've heard many comments where he spoke about his work and made passive insults towards DKR, Watchemn and even of late Identity Crisis.

It might be that he sees comics as being too removed from what he liekd abotu them and tarces that to particualr works by these creators. Though it wouldn't explain exactly why moore seems to be his main target.

Seeing as its been awhile, I guess I can start digging info on Seven Soldiers for another update.

[Groovie Mann]

okay, i been doing my research and AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!

::head explodes::

okay, i have a question, is there two cauldrons or one? dagdas cauldron from shining knight and zatanna #3 is the one thats suppose to keep gloriana young and heal scars. is it the same as the undying cualdron which ressurects the undead and keeps melmoth immortal?

i also got a lot of ncie tidbits but i'm saving them for the next update, in attended publication order. zatanna #4, klarion #4, bulleteer #1, and frankensetin #1

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
okay, i been doing my research and AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!

::head explodes::

okay, i have a question, is there two cauldrons or one? dagdas cauldron from shining knight and zatanna #3 is the one thats suppose to keep gloriana young and heal scars. is it the same as the undying cualdron which ressurects the undead and keeps melmoth immortal?

i also got a lot of ncie tidbits but i'm saving them for the next update, in attended publication order. zatanna #4, klarion #4, bulleteer #1, and frankensetin #1

I've always assumed there was only one, but I haven't given it much thought.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Onto this Morrison/Moore thing again.

Even though Morrison ahs stated he does like a efw of Moores works it is possible that Morrison holds Moore, and also frank Miller, to what he might believe a deteoriartion of superhero comics. Morrison is all about silver age comics and heroes being heroes. Not really not one of the deconstructionsit writers though I think his played around with it. I've heard many comments where he spoke about his work and made passive insults towards DKR, Watchemn and even of late Identity Crisis.

It might be that he sees comics as being too removed from what he liekd abotu them and tarces that to particualr works by these creators. Though it wouldn't explain exactly why moore seems to be his main target.

Seeing as its been awhile, I guess I can start digging info on Seven Soldiers for another update.


I think morrison is a deconstructionist and a postmodernist but in different ways then Moore. And I think miller is a modernist writer.

Im still not a hundred percnet sure that the no beard all beard thing is really a slam on Moore. No one has tried to explain who false beard should represent in that equation.

But comic creators critiquing each other is nothing new in comics. Although it is interesting to do it metaphorically rather then the John Byrne way.

And theres a long history of thinly veiled versions of other characters appearing so they can be critiqued.

Squadron Supreme
I think DC had a version of the Avengers, dont remember what they were called.
The Freedom Fighters/The Crusaders (Invaders book from the 70s)
Watchmen was a commentary to some degree on the Charlton heroes
Manchester Black and the Elite/The Authority slaughtering thinly veiled Marvel heroes
John Constantine has had quite a few.
Any number of Wolverine clones.
Arguably The Ultimates has elements of this.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by nolanjwerner
I think DC had a version of the Avengers, dont remember what they were called.
Watchmen was a commentary to some degree on the Charlton heroes


Tha Avengers are the Marvel version of tbe Justice League (at least, that was their origin). And the Watchmen story, conceptually, pre-dates the decision to use Charlton characters. Or, not to actually use them, as was the case in the end. Either way, it was an editorial decision, not one made by Moore.

[Banana_Oil]

Originally posted by David Bird
Tha Avengers are the Marvel version of tbe Justice League (at least, that was their origin).

SIGH.

No.

He is referring to the heroes of Angor, called either the Assemblers or the Justifiers. Initially appeared in 70s JLA but revived in 80s JLI. The Extremist robots (all swipes of Marvel villains) came from that world.

DC's Crusaders were copies of the Invaders; Marvel's Crusaders were copies of the Freedom Fighters. Archie/Red Circle/Impact's Crusaders were...not very good.

[thefellowship12]

I'm trying to work out the chronology of this series,

I know that Seven Soldiers Zatanna 1 is set before Seven Soldiers 0, it has been a while since I've read all this series in a row,
I generally prefer to read the series as a set of seperate series's

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by Banana_Oil
SIGH.

No.

He is referring to the heroes of Angor, called either the Assemblers or the Justifiers. Initially appeared in 70s JLA but revived in 80s JLI. The Extremist robots (all swipes of Marvel villains) came from that world.

DC's Crusaders were copies of the Invaders; Marvel's Crusaders were copies of the Freedom Fighters. Archie/Red Circle/Impact's Crusaders were...not very good.


There has been a pretty long tradition of critiquing other comics based on thinly veiled versions of the characters and no one seems to complain.

Some are better then others though.

[Groovie Mann]

DC has pissed me off.

So Pascual Ferry was going to draw all of "Mister Miracle," but Billy Patton replaced him, who was going to draw all the rest of "Mister Miracle" but Freddie E. Williams III replaced him… hang on I'll start again… ah why bother. -Lying in the Gutters

This is all I could find.

http://www.brokenfrontier.com/ektron-content/chance_1_1102.jpg

emailed patton to ask about it.

[thefellowship12]

On the DC website though it says that Billy Dallas Patton is doing issue 3, turns out that may not be true.

So what is Mr. Miracle having 3 different artists?

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by thefellowship12
On the DC website though it says that Billy Dallas Patton is doing issue 3, turns out that may not be true.

So what is Mr. Miracle having 3 different artists?



Just find an artist.

Christ, they never should have solicited the ____ing thing if it wasn't done. Theres no reason they cant find an artist as good as Patton or Ferry to draw 3 issues.

[KyleV]

I would have to think that Morrison would be fine with Moore simply because Moore -- particulary the last decade -- has become a bit of a Silver Age nut himself. Really, he always has been. Watchmen is just one type of story that he could tell. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is completely a Silver Age story.


So if we assume (big assumption, I know) that a beard belongs to someone who keeps the Silver Age flame, No Beard is Morrison because a) he doesn't have a beard and b) he's yet to prove himself a keeper of the Silver Age flame. All Beard is Moore and Fake Beard -- well, someone said it before, but it could be Warren Ellis, because he literally has a beard, but let's face facts: he's shown disdain for superheroes (and I'm a Warren Ellis fan).

I think there's only one cauldron as well.

I also think that working out the chronology of the series (aside from the one DC gave us) is an exercise in futility. I think the beauty of it is that it ultimately doesn't matter as everything happens at once.

Go back to the Invisibles -- Morrison doesn't consider time a river, but rather an ocean.

[nolanjwerner]

Originally posted by KyleV
I would have to think that Morrison would be fine with Moore simply because Moore -- particulary the last decade -- has become a bit of a Silver Age nut himself. Really, he always has been. Watchmen is just one type of story that he could tell. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is completely a Silver Age story.


So if we assume (big assumption, I know) that a beard belongs to someone who keeps the Silver Age flame, No Beard is Morrison because a) he doesn't have a beard and b) he's yet to prove himself a keeper of the Silver Age flame. All Beard is Moore and Fake Beard -- well, someone said it before, but it could be Warren Ellis, because he literally has a beard, but let's face facts: he's shown disdain for superheroes (and I'm a Warren Ellis fan).

I think there's only one cauldron as well.

I also think that working out the chronology of the series (aside from the one DC gave us) is an exercise in futility. I think the beauty of it is that it ultimately doesn't matter as everything happens at once.

Go back to the Invisibles -- Morrison doesn't consider time a river, but rather an ocean.


Yeah. I do think that you could actually put the issues in any order.

Start with Zero and end with one. Then start with issue 1 of all the series. Once issue 1 is read, issue 2 can go in. Draw cards and I bet youd have some crazy experiences reading it.

[David Bird]

If you really, really want some sort of chronology, you've got to start with the JLA Classified #1-3 story.

[Bakema NL]

Man, Zatanna #4 really gets you thinking........there's just too much referencing and hinting to Infinite crisis to make you think otherwise than that 7 soldiers does tie into it........I really wonder if that had been the plan all along or not. And maybe we're wrong here, but I think not. It almost makes your head hurt thinking about it, mind-boggling stuff as it can go all kinds of ways, maybe somewhere we would never expect, but guessing and picking out and trying to interpret all these more and less vague remarks/mentions is great.

[Croaker]

Does anyone else think that the Time Tailors were supposed to look like Grant Morrison? Maybe he's starting to see himself as a "protector" of continuity and that Zor represents one or many of his fellow comic book writers who wanted to change continuity to make things gritty and and more "real"?



Or I could be on drugs. I'm not sure which. :p

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Croaker
Does anyone else think that the Time Tailors were supposed to look like Grant Morrison? Maybe he's starting to see himself as a "protector" of continuity and that Zor represents one or many of his fellow comic book writers who wanted to change continuity to make things gritty and and more "real"?



Or I could be on drugs. I'm not sure which. :p

They certainly did look like him.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Croaker
Does anyone else think that the Time Tailors were supposed to look like Grant Morrison? Maybe he's starting to see himself as a "protector" of continuity and that Zor represents one or many of his fellow comic book writers who wanted to change continuity to make things gritty and and more "real"?



Or I could be on drugs. I'm not sure which. :p

grant has a history of throwing hismelf into his own books. invisibles star king mob was essentially grant. AS Superman's lex luthor looked eeriely similar. never read animal man but i hear he pops up.

zor is actually a silver age DC villain.

and besides, even the grim and gritty writers respect grant no matter his position on their books normally.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by David Bird
They certainly did look like him.

yo, interesting suggestion box update. i need to do my reccomended reading but i've been extremely lazy.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
zor is actually a silver age DC villain.

Zor only made three appearances before now, two fighting the Spectre, both in 1940, and once against the JSA, 1984. So he missed the Silver Age altogether. (Source. (http://www.dcuguide.com/chronology.php?name=zor))

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
yo, interesting suggestion box update. i need to do my reccomended reading but i've been extremely lazy.

Thanks!

[David Bird]

Finally got my 7S Zee review (http://www.paperbackreader.com/review.php?ReviewID=1133) up! Hope you like it.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by David Bird
Finally got my 7S Zee review (http://www.paperbackreader.com/review.php?ReviewID=1133) up! Hope you like it.

Nice job David. The Mandrake bit was tops!

A couple interesting points after several re-reads:

Six-sided sun in Zatanna #1, the template of the Croatoan AI? King Ra-Man describes Zee's reality as a side of the die, and the existence they were travelling as another side.

In Shining Knight #3, does anyone else think that Bors was dividing the Croatoan AI into a pair of dice when he struck the anvil?

[David Bird]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
In Shining Knight #3, does anyone else thing that Bors was dividing the Croatoan AI into a pair of dice when he struck the anvil?

I hadn't thought of it, but its a great idea.

[KyleV]

Groovie Mann said:
never read animal man but i hear he pops up.

Gah! GM, get thee to a comics' shop now! A lot of what Grant is trying to do (I think) in Seven Soldiers crops up in Animal Man, particularly his love for Silver Age comics. It's great stuff.

And his final issue is just really touching. They're all out in trades now!

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by KyleV
Groovie Mann said:


Gah! GM, get thee to a comics' shop now! A lot of what Grant is trying to do (I think) in Seven Soldiers crops up in Animal Man, particularly his love for Silver Age comics. It's great stuff.

And his final issue is just really touching. They're all out in trades now!

i also have to finish up doom patrol. truthfully moneys tight so i have to actually wiat until i can get these books sadly. unless anyone wants to send them to me. i need doom patrol vol. 2-3 and all the animal man stuff.

[Groovie Mann]

More things pertaining to the number 7: Gold Place, Cyrus Gold aka Solomon Grundy. His poem took place over the course of 7 days.

Spider Symbolism
From CBR.

1) The predatory terror of chaos. And don't tell me that's not the way people think of spiders.
2) 8 legs = the 8 points of Chaos = the 8-fold path.
3) Networks. The web that connects us all. As in what Ali-Ka-Zoom says about the thread.
4) Molting: the exchange of an old identity for a new one by sloughing an old exoskeleton.
5) The auto-patterning of reality.
6) The entity that makes it's own auto-patterning of reality, and can step away from it.
7) Reality = trap.

The weaving of fate (i.e., the spider being more in control of your 'free will' and 'destiny' than you are).

The spider's thread has been associated with the thread woven by the fates and the spider itself with the feminine power of the moon. (no connection to Seven Soldiers, yet)

Spider's web-weaving has suggested in many traditions a parallel with reality-construction and world-creation. In many cultures the spider is the world-creator or is closely involved in the act of creation. For example, in West Africa, Anansi the Spider created the celestial bodies and the matter from which humans were made, but the Sky-God had to breathe life into the inert matter (I don't read Gaiman, so no idea if this has anything to do with the title of his novel).

However, the frail, tenuous nature of the spider-web sometimes associates it with a lesser order of reality as opposed to a posited stronger, "more real" reality. So the spider is sometimes seen as a symbol of the demiurge - the creator of a fallen world which is an inferior copy of the true or divine reality; or, to switch to Buddhist terminology, as the spinner of illusion, Maya; or as a symbol of existence (everyday or apparent reality) as opposed to Being (the substratum that underlies apparent reality).

The spider's thread has also functioned as a symbol of the strand that connects mortal to divine existence, the umbilical cord connecting the created to its creator.
The spider has also been seen as a symbol of the soul, as the conductor of souls to the underworld, and as the God of the Underworld himself.

The spider has also been seen as an intermediary between mortals and the divine, probably because he seems to partake of both orders, as seen in the aspects mentioned above. And as such, he can represent a initiation into a higher stage of development.

The spider sitting in the middle of his self-constructed web can be a symbol of the development of individual creative power through meditation and self-exploration.

However, this same image can take on a negative aspect and represent excessive introspection and narcissism.

One idea I expected to find but didn't see mentioned explicitly is the web-weaver as a symbol of artistic, and especially literary, creation - the writer as the builder of his own fictional reality. But we could say that this is implied in the concept of the spider as a symbol of introspective creative power and as a reality-builder, and in Paul's 5th and 6th points.

Thoughts anyone? I think we might be able to see a connection with the Time Tailor as the creator of a new reality. Perhaps the Sheeda technology might suggest itself as well - e.g. Melmoth's construction of the Sub-Missionaries. Can we see these as attempts to usurp the role of the Creator - attempts that lead to the construction of faulty, mal-functioning realities and flawed beings? (Cf. Paul's points 5 , 6, & 7).

Melmoth immediately springs to mind as a conductor of souls and as an Underworld king - for example, in his treatment of the children under his control.

And the web-maker as literary creator of course suggests the metatextual ideas Paul brought up in regard to the Time Tailor in his post on Guardian #4.

Not sure what we can say about the idea of initiation. Melmoth and the Time Tailor certainly initiate their victims(?) into a new state of existence, but it doesn't appear to be one we would characterize as a "higher" stage. Future developments might shed new light on this, though.

Zatanna #4
Art by Ryan Sook, Mick Gray & Nathan Eyring
Characters: Zatanna, Misty, Vanguard, Zor, 7 Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp, Zatara, Etta Candy
Summary: In the issue entitled “Zor” Zatanna goes to Cyrus Place at Slaughter Swamp to confront the Seven Unknown Men. There she encounters Zor, a being of intense power. The two battle with Zatanna find herself crossing over into the fourth dimension and meeting the 7 Unknown Men as well as her long deceased father


Things of Note
Gwydion is one of the seven treasures.

Gwydion’s dialogue is similar to Rebis from Morrisons penned Doom Patrol run during the Aenigma Regis.

Zor was one of the 7 Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp before going renegade as the Terrible Time Tailor. He introduced the Sheeda as a sort of techno-organic virus. The 7 unknown Men “make sure the fabric of the universe is in good repair.”

Zor is a silver age villain who first appeared in More Fun Comics #55.

Jabs at Moore? Zatanna is the “anti-Promethea?”
And you have a stupid beard.-Zatanna
Liar! It’s a magnificent beard and I know you want one!-Zor

From CBR: There were hints and nudges throughout the series, but it was really obvious to me during the lines concerning the end of the world. "It's just something that happens" was a line often used in Promethea and "Not on my watch" seemed like a nice counter/snub to it.

Page 4
PANEL 1: "There is something familiar about this loom..."
The spinning wheel that Zatanna and Misty find in Cyrus Gold's shack looks exactly like the upon which Misty was forced to spin a cobweb dress of forgetfullness, as shown in Zatanna 3. When the Newsboys visited the shack in Guardian 4, they saw a sewing machine there, the same Time Sewing Machine abandoned by the Seven Unknown Men in Seven Soldiers 0. Looms, spinning wheels, and sewing machines are all tools use to produce cloth and clothing.

Page 9
PANEL 1: "I brought the Wrath of God to its white and knobbly knees."
Zor is referring to his battle with the Spectre back in the MORE FUN #55, a very old Golden Age comic.

PANEL 4: "Gwydion the Merlin am I, of seven treasures one."
Gwydion admits to being one of the Seven Treasures of Camelot, which Gloriana Tenebrae has been trying to collect over in Shining Knight. Two of the other treasures are Arthur's sword, Caliburn Ex Calibur, and the Undry Cauldorn.

Page 13
PANEL 2: "And I... I, the many thousand hands that hold it... I, the multi-colored eyes that gaze upon you..."
Gwydion seems to be referring to the hands and eyes of comic-book readers in the real world.

PANEL 4: "Call it a leap of faith. A blind jump through spaces, vectore, geometry problems I couldn't solve. But I got ahead of him. And then he arrived moments later, I was already there, pulling his whole magical universe down around him."
Zatanna leaped out of panel five at the bottom of page 12, through the white space beyond the panels and landed at the bottom of page 13, thus getting ahead of the flow of the story. The ink-diving Hand agents in The Filth accomplished something similar.

Page 18
PANEL 1: "You're in a dimensional lock, Zee."
A lock is a enclosed part of a canal in which the water can be raised or lowered to move a boat from one level plane to another. Zatanna is in-between two dimensional planes: the DC Universe and the higher plane of existence where we read their adventures in comic books.

Zatanna is surrounded by letters, ink, pens, and type-writer components. These are the tools used to craft stories and thus to shape the world in which Zatanna lives.

"We want to thank you for subduing the Renegade, but he's caused some Terrible trouble I'm afraid."
Zor is a renegade former member of the Seven Unknown Men. The description also implies that he is the same Terrible Time Tailor seen in Guardian 4.

"There were eyes, tens of thousands of eyes, in different times and places all converging on me."
Zatanna can sense the eyes of comic book readers watching her.

Page 19
PANEL 2: "Had I always known the universe was like this?"
The object Zatanna holds in her hand is a caption box waiting to be installed onto the panels of the printed page. The words it contains are Zatanna's mental narration of her own adventure. Narrative caption boxes exactly like this one appear throughout the previous nine pages depicting Zatanna's battle with Zor.
All from Barbelith (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers)

The rules of magic:
1. Nothing is what is seems. aka Misdirection.
2. Learn to fool the experts.
3. If you can’t keep it down, don’t bring it up.
4. Preparation. aka Always keep at least one card up your sleeve.
5. (Called the last rule: ) The magician has to vanish along with his trick.

Back track to issue #3 for a moment.
Gloriana Tenebrae, the Queen of Terror, to Neb-Buh-Lon
I intend to live forever. No need for a princess then. Take here into eternity’s woods and cut out her brain, Huntsman.
Not exactly what we thought it meant.

Klarion the Witchboy
Art by Frazer Irving
Characters: Klarion, Teekl, Beulah, Klarions mother, Melmoth, Judah,
Summary: “Burn, Witchboy! Burn!” Klarion returns to limbo Town a fugitive. His people prepared to burn him for what he claims are lies in the Book of Shadows. Klarion’s warnings come late as Melmoth and his troops drill into Limbo Town. Melmoth plans for something and has decided to turn the homes of Limbo Town into breeding pens as he admits to being the father of their race. Klarion is sent by Judah to learn Submissionary secrets. He takes a map as well as bonds with his cat Teekl to become Horigal, battles and chases away Melmoth.

Things of Note
Melmoth mated with Puritan girls who hid underground ashamed they had sex with the devil and thus the birth of the Witch people. Melmoth’s treatment of the Puritan girls and his plans for the Witch-Girls seems to parallel the ordeal of Olwen in Shining Knight #1, who was “passed around Gloriana’s court” until she was corrupted and became a changeling.

Page 14
PANEL 1: Croaton is a sophisticated artificial intelligence system and it comes in the form of a pair of dice, so keep those eyes peeled lads. Mmmm?

Well Klarion ahs one, Misty has the other. Also the whole “artifical intelligence system” being created by the advance virus that Zor created. Keep in mind the three Submissionary men were created in melmoths toyshop. So the Sheeda went from Aliens, to fairies to something else?(PS, I did this one myself, not Barbelith)

The map has been rumored to be a map of Faireland/Summers End.


Bulleteer #1
Art by Yanick Paquette, Michael Bair, & Alex Sinclair
Characters: Alix and Lance Horrower, Metal Mickey, “Doctor”(in last few ages)
Summary: “Ballistic: How the Bulleteer Began” tells the story of scientist Lance Horrower and his wife Alix. Lance is working on a new indestructible smartskin however he believes it could allow him his dream of being a superhero, one he would like to share with his wife who is uninterested. He tries it on himself and accidentally effects Alix with it. She survives the transformation but he does not. She soon discovers her husband had a secret life of internet superhero porn that breaks her heart. In the end she decides to become the Bulleteer now that her normal life is over.

Things of Note
Last name is Horrower as in Sheeda Horrowing? Alix is the feminine shortening of Alexander in Greek language means to “defending men.”

Page 6
PANEL 3
The clock reads 4:45 am. Add those three numbers and you get unlucky 13.

Speculation that the smartskin will some how be tied into the sheeda and the Cauldron of the Undying.



Frankenstein #1
Art by Doug Mahnke & John Kalisz
Characters: Franksenstein, Melmoth, Uglykid, “Girl Frankenstein” and her boyfriend
Summary: “Uglykid” is the story of a high school outcast who finds himself a vessel for the Sheeda spine riders. He uses his new telepathic powers to manipulate the people in school bringing them to the prom to serve up as food for Sheeda maggots. In the midst of the horror Frankenstein emerges. Buried under the school after a train crash from 1870 when he last fought Melmoth. Frankenstein kills Uglykid and burns and buries all the bodies.

Things of Note
Morrisons take on Buffy?

Page 3
PANEL 1: "Death to the Circus of Maggots!"
Frankenstein shoots off Melmoth's head. Melmoth will survive this injury because the waters of the Cauldron of Rebirth flow in his veins, as he revealed in Klarion #4. However, it will leave a nasty scar, as seen in Klarion #3.

Page 8
PANEL 1: "Excalibur Fantasy Butterfly World"
This "butterfly specialty shop" resembles many real-world "comic book specialty shops" that also have extravagant names and garish posters displayed in the windows.

Page 19
PANEL 1: "O miserable mankind, to what fall degraded, to what wretched fate reserved..."
This is a quote from Paradise Lost (Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost) ) by John Milton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Milton (http://) ), Book Eleven, lines 500-501. Paradise Lost recounts the fall of Lucifer from heaven and the first fall of Man to temptation. Milton lived 1608-1674 and published Paradise Lost in 1667.

PANEL 4: "Michael's sword."
Michael is Saint Michael the Archangel (Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_%28archangel%29) ). In Paradise Lost, Michael commands the army of angels loyal to God against the rebel forces of Satan. Armed with a sword from God's armory, he bests Satan in personal combat, wounding his side.

Retrieved from Barbelith (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Frankenstein_1)

one of the thought bubbles in Frankenstein 1 is someone thinking "F= gamma m1m2/r^2" (the formula for an inverse square law like gravity). This is also the very first speech bubble in JLA Classified 1

1) Justin's sword
2) The Dice
3) The Cauldren
4) Gwydion
5) Michael's sword
6) Guardian's helmet (although it hasn't really seemed to have that special of a role or techno-mystical heritage)
7) Motherbox

Part 6 (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1588323#post1588323)

[BillReed]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
In Shining Knight #3, does anyone else think that Bors was dividing the Croatoan AI into a pair of dice when he struck the anvil?

That's what I thought at first, but the consensus seems to be that he was splitting the atom.

[David Bird]

Great stuff Groovie Man. Two points though. You mention Olwen being a changeling. A changeling is something substituted for another. So, if she is referred to as a changeling (my comics are upstairs) then I don't think that really was Olwen, but something pretending to be her. Second, Zor is not Silver Age, but Golden.

Originally posted by BillReed
That's what I thought at first, but the consensus seems to be that he was splitting the atom.

True, but its aninteresting point anyways. We really don't know what Croatoan is or why its represented as two dice.

[4DGlasses]

I'll second David's opinion. Great work as always! Looks like I got some work to do as well.

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
5) Michael's sword

Is that one of the 7 Treasures or is it the pistol?

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
I'll second David's opinion. Great work as always! Looks like I got some work to do as well.



Is that one of the 7 Treasures or is it the pistol?

most a copy and paste job but truthfully we don't know anything about the gun and we know the swords micheals. i also think guardians sheild is his treasure especially the fact i htink guardians had two(he traded on for use of that... um... well guardian 2/klarion 2 the trade with the levithian child)

Two points though. You mention Olwen being a changeling. A changeling is something substituted for another. So, if she is referred to as a changeling (my comics are upstairs) then I don't think that really was Olwen, but something pretending to be her. Second, Zor is not Silver Age, but Golden.

Yeah, I guess the bit about Olwen is onfusing. it could've just been a changeling disguised as her but I think what i(or who i borrowed from) meant that the Puritan girls were going to be sex slaves of the Sheeda.

Yeah, silver age, golden age... whatever. silver age sounds cooler.

[KyleV]

Thoughts anyone? I think we might be able to see a connection with the Time Tailor as the creator of a new reality. Perhaps the Sheeda technology might suggest itself as well - e.g. Melmoth's construction of the Sub-Missionaries. Can we see these as attempts to usurp the role of the Creator - attempts that lead to the construction of faulty, mal-functioning realities and flawed beings? (Cf. Paul's points 5 , 6, & 7).

This is where having read Animal Man really helps. Morrison spends a great deal of his run trying to break that fourth wall -- literally. He even mentioned in an interview that he actually wondered what it would take to make a fictional character appear in this reality.

That said, I don't see the Time Tailor as being that concrete. Yes, I think it is Morrison, but while Melmouth is setting himself to be an underworld god (perfect point, by the way -- that's exactly what he's doing), I think the Time Tailor is much more of an abstract concept rather than a specific role. I don't think it's coincidence, however, that Melmouth's former wife attacks from on high, in many ways pointing to the fact that our plane of existence is just a ground for those above and below to play out their games.

If we're looking at people in a god-like way, I have to wonder what the Seven Unknown Men are. They're obviously very hands on as far as what they're doing, but for what reason? Their motivations SEEM to be rather focused, but I'm not entirely sure. They revamped I, Spyder but where did that get them? And if one of them can go rogue (and, presumably, be replaced) then they're not really removed from our realm of existence (or the one that the Time Tailor maintains, I suppose).

What role do the Seven Unknown Men really play? And does each one match up with a Soldier?

[Groovie Mann]

random bump