Seven Soldiers of Victory Overview

[Groovie Mann]

Seven Soldiers of Victory


Table of Contents
Part 1: Below
Part 2: Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1157398#post1157398)
Part 3: Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1184867#post1184867)
Part 4: Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1228701#post1228701)
Part 5:Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1397820#post1397820)
Part 6: Here (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1588323#post1588323)
--
From David Bird
Chronology (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1468601#post1468601)

Chronology II (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1472425#post1472425)

Gundies Info (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1269410#post1269410)

--

I'm going to try to keep all us Seven Soldier readers up to date with whats been published. Whats happened in every individual issue. the characters whsoe shown as well as the connections between each individual mini. I'll aslo give you as much info as I can find on parts some might think are confusing. The various symbolism, historical, literary, mythological, etc. references.

First off, thanks to the various posters at CBR Forums (http://forums.comicbookresources.com)(Berk, Wesley Dodds, patience, Paul McEnery, Micheal Painter, Lex, CaptMagellan, ultramandingo, expletive deleted, Gingold, Indigo Al, probably more) who I stole, er-borrowed a lot of info from(plus did a little reaserch of my own.

Also Barbelith (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers).

So lets get started and please do contribute and ask questions.

What is the Seven Soldiers of Victory?
Currently running in DC, Seven Soldiers is the mega-series envisioned by award winning comic creator Grant Morrison. In encompasses seven 4-part mini-series and two book ends. Following a modular story telling approach where each book can be read separately but all together tells a bigger story.

Seven Soldiers Special #0
Shining Knight #1-4
Guardian #1-4
Zatanna #1-4
Klarion the Witch Boy #1-4
Mr. Miracle #1-4
Bulleteer #1-4
Frankenstein! #1-4
Seven Soldiers Special #1

What About JLA: Classified 1-3?
JLA Classified can serve as a teaser for Seven Soldiers since it is the first appearance of the main villains the Sheeda and Neh-Buh-Loh the Hunter. However it is not needed to understand the Seven Soldiers story. Might just be a way to establish that this story takes place within the same universe as the Justice League of America. Through out Seven soldiers there are references to DCUs popular team.

Brief History of the Seven Soldiers
Formed in the early 40s in the pages of Leading Comics #1 seven heroes, working independently, battle the agents of Iron Hand. They joined together to become Laws’ Legionnaires or the Seven Soldiers. The original team founded by Crimson Avenger(1), the Spider(1), Shining Knight(1), Billy Gunn(no, not the DX member), Vigilante(1), the Star-Spangled Kid and Stripesy.

The team had members go in an out. The Pre-Crisis original team included Green Arrow and Speedy before continuity fixing retconned thier addition to the team. The original team was betrayed by Spider and then engaged in a battle with Nebula Man. A battle where the unofficial member Wing sacrificed himself to save the day.

Decades later a new team under the same name emerged which included Batgirl(1), deadman, Adam strange, Mento, Blackhawk, Metamorpho, and Atomic Knight. This team also had to contend with Iron hand.


Seven Soldiers Special #0
Art by JH Williams III & Dave Stewart
Characters: Thomas Ludlow Dalt/Alias the Spider/I, the Spyder, Shelly Gaynor/The Whip, Greg Saunders/The Vigilante, Jacqueline Pemberton/Gimmix, Boy Blue, Dyno-Mite Dan, Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp(cameo), Neh-Buh-Loh
Summary:In the prologue, True Thomas, Thomas Ludlow Dalt(Alias, the Spider> heads to Slaughter Swamp to kill a target and he comes in the presence of Seven Unknown Men. These men originally hired Thomas Ludlow Dalt and brought him to the swamp to prepare him for his true mission.

In Weird Adventures Part 1: Shelly and the Super-Cowboys Shelly Gaynor, the Whip, narrates the story. Here she speaks about her using her grand fathers hero name to achieve her own fame by writing books about her adventures. Seeking a new thrill she contacts Greg Saunders, the Viglante, whose putting together a super-hero team. Saunders once worked with her grandfather, the original Whip.

In Part 2: Big Time Country we are in Texas as Shelly becomes a part in his new Seven Soldiers. Vigilante was a part of the original team with the Whip. This time they are forming in an attempt to hunt the giant spider of Miracle Mesa. Problem arises that the seventh soldier got cold feet and now there is only six heroes. Alias, the Spider now known as I, Spyder, Gimmix, Boy Blue, Boy Blue, and Dyno-Mite Dan.

In Part 3: Midnight At Miracle Mesa the heroes fight the giant spider and win. They soon discover its actually a machine that elad them into a trap set by the Sheeda lead by Neh-Buh-Loh. The scene ends in a image of the soldiers fighting and some dying.

Ends with the epilogue Save Seven as the Seven Unkown Men work out plan B while the Sheeda arrive to start the Harrowing.

Things of Note
Slaughter Swamp is the birth place of DC villain Cyrus Gold/Soloman Grundy.

“Another schmuck with bow and arrows! That’s it?”
“Where’s the twist? Where’s the gimmick?”
Those lines can be used to refernce Spiders father the original I, the Spider as well as the character Gimmix.

Gimmix, real name Jacqueline Pamberton, may actually be Merry of a 1000 Gimmicks. Merry Pamberton was the foster sister of Star-Spangled Kid. Later she became a hero herself and then married the villain Brain Wave(2). She was now Merry Pamberton King and had a son. Various incidents, possibly including Brain Wave being sent to prison, had her suffer a mental breakdown and fake her own death to reappear later. It’s also possible this is a new character that Morrison gave the same last name to as a tip of the hat to stories past.

Boy Blue and Dyno-Mite Dan are new characters in the veins of Little Boy Blue and TNT and his sidekick Dan the Dyna-Mite.

The power of the number 7.
“There were seven champions of Christendom, seven spirits at the throne of god, seven virtues, seven sins, seven sleepers, seven wise masters…It’s kind of unlucky that there are only six of us.”-Dyno-Mite Dan.

The skull that appears on the cover and in a single panel of the comic may represent death. Or failure.

The seventh soldier who was to appear is still unaccounted for. Speculation that it was the original Shining Knight is popular at the moment.

Neh-Buh-Loh is a reference to the old Seven Soldiers villain Nebula Man.

What is the TIME-SEWING MACHINE?

Is the word Sheeda derived from Sidhe (pronounced "Shee," possibly) of Irish myth and legend. The Sidhe were not straightforward creatures of destruction and decay. They were a pretty complex group, actually, and often acted in benevolent ways towards heroes like Cu Chulainn(Irish warrior).

Who died in the final confrontation of the story?


Shining Knight #1
Art by Simone Bianchi & Nathan Eyring
Characters: Sir Justin, Vanguard the Horse, Sheeda Queen GlorianaTenebrae, Gawain, Lancelot, Caradoc, Bors, Peredur, Galahad, Arthur, Olwen, Neh-Buh-Loh
Summary: In the story The Last of Camelot we’re introduced to the Knights of the Broken Table. The knights are in battle with the Sheeda but fall one by one. The teenager Sir Justin and his flying horse Vanguard make it into Castle Revolving searching for the Cauldron of Youth. There he battles a dead King Arthur under the power of the Sheeda. Justin than battles the Sheeda queen and takes back Arthurs sword. He tosses the Cauldron into a green liquid that flows through time. Vanguard and Justin escape through the liquid out of castle revolving to end up in Los Angeles present day. There Vanguard is injured as he hits the ground and cops arrest Justin.

Things of Note
The opening sequence, the fall of Camelot, parallels that of Jack Kirbys Demon #1.

The knights and king can each represent, roughly, the big 7 of the Justice League.
Lancelot is Superman
Gawain is Batman
Caradoc is Martian Manhunter
Peredur is Wonder Woman
Bors is Flash
Galahad is Green Lantern
King Arthur is Arthur

Castle Revolving is likely a contemporary version of Caer Sidi, the castle of the goddess Arianrhod, which sat at the hub of the "Silver Wheel" in Annwn, the Welsh underworld. It was also called the Castle of Glass, which links it to Ynis Witrin, the Isle of Glass (aka Avalon, and possibly Glastonbury).

Cauldron of Youth also referred to as the Inexhaustible Cauldron.
“It sang once in Murias, at the Mighty Dagda’s table. It brings the dead to life and heals all wounds.”-Sir Justin
The Dagda was an Irish god, the chief of the gods, who dragged about a cauldron that could never be emptied. The cauldron was one of 4 Irish treasures.

Olwen- Olwen is the daughter of a giant in the Welsh folktale.

This first issue Shining Knight may be based heavily on Preiddu Annwn (or Annwfn, or Annwvyn), in which Arthur and his knight appear to storm Caer Sidi and steal the Cauldron.

What’s Justin speaking in the end of the issue? Possibly Welsh. Check out www.barbelith.com (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers) for more in depth info.


Manhattan Guardian #1
Art by Cameron Stewart & moose Baumann
Characters: Jake Jordan, Capt. No-Beard, Soapy, Larry, Lauren, Carla, Mr. Ed Stargard, Newsboy Army, Capt. All-Beard
Summary:Pirates of Manhattan has two factions of subway pirates battling over a map that documents the ultimate treasure. All the while ex-cop Jake Jordan slips deeper into depression. His girlfriends father, Larry, gives him a job advertisement for the newspaper the Manhattan Guardian looking to have their own in house superhero. Jake applies and pass the test to become their living masthead. His first adventure follows chasing down subway pirates who just kidnapped his girlfriend, Carla.

Things of Note
All Beard = Alan Moore?
No Beard = Morrison?

The newspaper=reality in which we may choose to participate
The Guardian=saviour avatar
The Legion=angels/disciples
The pirates=Legion (i.e. demons that need to be exorcised)
God=disembodied editor living on the 23rd floor of change (I Ching and Chaos Magic).

Morrison mimics Kirby's writing style in the four captions "Suddenly the sputtering barks ... Worm Almighty”

Reference to Mr. Miracle planning to escape from an artificially created black hole.

No mention or sight of anything Sheeda related.


Zatanna #1
Art by Ryan Sook, Mick Gray & Nathan Eyring
Characters: Zatanna Zatara, Giovanni Zatara, Gimmix, Etta Candy(unnamed), Mind Grabber Kid(unnamed) , 4 unnamed individuals in Therepy group(two males, one “ghost”, one 75 year old woman), Baron Winter, Timothy Ravenwind, Ibis/Mr. Invincible, Taia, Dr. 13, King Ra-Man, Gwydion, Misty
Summary: Talking Backwards finds JLA member Zatanna attending a workshop for suepr heroes with low self esteem. In this group she talks about her father Giovanni Zatara and how wisely he sued his magic powers. Than speaks about who she lost her powers when she and a group of wizards gathered in a magical house to form a séance so they can “journey” into a magical realm. They were brought together by shared dreams of “… little people from under the hill, locust armites with tiny riders, a queen on an eight legged horse.” Their journey takes them to where “All the books that were ever written in anyone’s head,” as Zatanna searches out her fathers four books she comes in contact with the demon Gwydion who murders her friends but leaves her alive. Gwydion was created by Zatanna when she wished for her perfect mate and now her friends are dead and she’s lost her own magical powers. Zatanna is approached at the end of the workshop by a teenage girl named Misty who wants to become her apprentice.

Things of Note
Rabbits = desire, lust.

Gwydion=In the Mabinogion he's a great warrior/magician, a shape-shifter, and a trickster-figure. He figures prominently in the story "Math, Son of Mathonwy."

Sidhe(the word which maybe the basis of Sheeda) is Irish which has its mythology crossover with Welsh where Gwydion of Zatannas mini comes from.

Ibis and Taia were both Fawcett characters, displaced through time from 12th Century BC Egypt.

Timothy Ravenwind has apparently been around since 1973, and was used in the Morrison/Miller Swamp Thing.

There have been mentions of comparisons to Promethea because of the interreality journey through magic featured in the issue.

Possible references to various magicks. Possibly even Chaos magic which Grant Morrison performs.

This issue takes place before Seven Soldiers Special #0.


Klarion the Witch Boy #1
Art by Frazer Irving
Characters: Klarion, Teekl the Cat, Beulah, Submissionary Judah, Ezekiel, Klarions Mother
Summary: From This World to That Which Is to Come is the first chapter of Klarion the Witch Boy. In Limbo Town, somewhere beneath the surface world, puritan witches live. There the dead awaken as Grundys to be put as slaves by the people. Here Klarion grows restless and defiant wanting to leave this place. The town is under the influence of the Submissionary which is controlled by Judah. They’re god is named Croatoan, the Witch-God When a Sheeda locust is discovered he calls upon sealing the Wicket Gate. However this comes around the time Brother Ezekiel of the parliament plans to leave Limbo Town to further trade with the Trolley Men. Three Submissionarys become the demon Horigal and kill Ezekiel as Klarion seeks to warn him.

Things of Note
Klarion was originally created by Jack Kirby in the original Demon series.

Croatoan=Possibly related to a lost colony of Roanole Island off the coast of North Carolina. There 117 settlers went missing. Info Here (http://www.coastalguide.com/packet/lostcolony01.htm ) on the Cittie of Raleigh deserted, plundered, and surrounded "with a high pallisado of great trees, with cortynes and flankers, very fort-like". On one of the palisades, he found the single word "CROATOAN" carved into the surface, and the letters "CRO" carved into a nearby tree.

The Submissionaires state, in believing the Sheeda are coming: "If Sheeda return, we will be retired from duty, deleted. After such long and faithful service our purpose will be at an end."
One CBR forum poster stated the following in regards to this: If we think of the series as one more prefiguration of the End Times (booga booga), and the Sheeda as the new version of The Archons or every other Great Beast from Beyond, then the Submissionaries are debased religion, serving the purposes of Yog-Sothoth (or whomever); i.e. they're there to keep humanity down. Quite why the Sheeda would bank on one small group of crazy Puritan witches is another matter. Perhaps we're to extrapolate that they're also running the Ayatollahs and the Cardinals. (who wants to google all those words? I don’t.)

Various other explorations into religion we could possibly get into but I’m sure my head would explode trying.

Next weekend I'll do all the second issues. Right now, I need a tylenol.

Next Chapter Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1157398#post1157398)

[No1insight]

Awesome guide :D Especially with SK, which I could not understand for the life of me. The Justice League/Knights comparisson is very interesting.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by No1insight
Awesome guide :D Especially with SK, which I could not understand for the life of me. The Justice League/Knights comparisson is very interesting.

Got that from barbelith.com as well.

Notice that because Arthur is a king he doesn't count as a soldier, thus six soldiers battling the sheeda. One could argue Wonder Woman as well but seeing as shes considered an amazon warrior and in current continutiy is no longer a princess, she counts as a soldier.

Of course, peredeur is blind which is how that comaprion relaly worked since Diana was blind at the time as well.

Head hurts again...

[BillReed]

Originally posted by No1insight
Awesome guide :D Especially with SK, which I could not understand for the life of me. The Justice League/Knights comparisson is very interesting.

Ha ha ha! If he's pulling this off the Barbelith wiki, I'm the one that came up with that. I mean, King Arthur had an orange scaly shirt on, man!

And the Sheeda seem to be using Green Lantern technology to attack Camelot...

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by BillReed
Ha ha ha! If he's pulling this off the Barbelith wiki, I'm the one that came up with that. I mean, King Arthur had an orange scaly shirt on, man!

And the Sheeda seem to be using Green Lantern technology to attack Camelot...

Actually I discovered barbelith from CBR forums which I mentioend in the beginning. If it was you that came up with that at barbelith I don't know.

Shining Knight so far is the only one I really looked at on that site.

Others are from internet discussion and various(however little) research on my own part.

Just earlier I looked up Roanoke Island which was mentioned in discussion about Klarion and pulled brief info on that.

[BillReed]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Just earlier I looked up Roanoke Island which was mentioned in discussion about Klarion and pulled brief info on that.

Grant's explanation of Croatoan is very nice. And another shot at his 'absent figure' archetype; the thing that is defined by not being there. Like No-Girl, Number None, etc.

[4DGlasses]

You're the f*cking mann, Groovie.

Here's an excerpt from a recent Morrison interview (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=0041 50)

The original Seven Soldiers of Victory were created when the world was embedded in a brutal war. In winter 1941, this heroic group, also known as the Law's Legionnaires, made their debut in Leading Comics # 1. The name "Seven Soldiers" was evocative of the dozens of men and women proudly serving their countries as members of the Allied armed forces. America, much like the rest of the world, needed heroes and something to believe in during those troubled times. The Seven Soldiers of Victory and other colorfully clad heroes of their ilk filled that void nicely.

The group consisted of mostly non-powered heroes: the Star Spangled Kid and Stripesy, Green Arrow and Speedy, Vigilante, Crimson Avenger, and the Shining Knight, who banded together to fight for justice during those turbulent times. The heroes were ones that almost anyone could relate to - just regular men in costumes, (with the exception of Shining Knight who had a winged steed and magical armor), using extraordinary learned skills to take on injustice and evil. On the printed page, four-color, larger than life heroes could fight battles readers were yearning to see. Younger readers could imagine practicing, training, and maybe taking on the world in that fashion ... someday.


Like the Justice Society of America before them, the Seven Soldiers of Victory filled a specific role that the times made relevant. The heroes only had fourteen adventures in their original incarnation, but those battles were memorable. However what - if anything - does this new version of Seven Soldiers encompass or have to do with the originals? How do these new groups of heroes relate to the Golden Age? True, these are turbulent times, but is writer Grant Morrison looking for something today's readers can relate to, or is there another reason he tied those leads together minus the "of Victory" under the Seven Soldiers moniker?

"Originally it had very little to do with them [the first Seven Soldiers of Victory]," Morrison said. "I just liked the name 'Seven Soldiers' and thought it fit my project well. As the story developed, I decided to tie as much as I could into continuity as well, which turned into an insane kind of Geoff Johns/James Robinson strand running through the narrative, which fully integrates my seven soldiers into the history of all the previous characters and reveals an 'Identity Crisis' style secret at the heart of the Golden Age team. Most of that stuff is in Bulleteer issue 2. I also have a new version of the Greg Sanders Vigilante turning up in that story - think High Plains Drifter, and Unforgiven, shake in a little Ghost Rider and bake until Bulleteer # 2 hits the stands. We're also doing the origin of the cosmic character Oracle, from Justice League 100 - 102, the 'Unknown Soldier of Victory' and learn the secret of Earth's first superhero. The whole thing is very deeply rooted in DC history but the connections are hopefully subtle enough that, while long-time fans will appreciate all the Easter Eggs, new readers, who may be picking up their first comic book, will also be able to get a complete and entertaining story that requires no knowledge of old comic books."

[Groovie Mann]

Now you got me wanting to read Bulleteer and of all the 7S projects that was the one that interested me the least.

Of course, being I was looking forward to it the least makes me think I'll like it the best. I mean, Guardians my favorite now and that sue to be my least fav of the four.

[DiscoVietnam]

Great stuff mate, well done.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Now you got me wanting to read Bulleteer and of all the 7S projects that was the one that interested me the least.

I initially felt the same about Klarion, and almost put it back on the shelf. Glad I didn't.

[DiscoVietnam]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
I initially felt the same about Klarion, and almost put it back on the shelf. Glad I didn't.

LOL...now look at you, 7S owns yo AZZ.

:D ;)

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by DiscoVietnam
LOL...now look at you, 7S owns yo AZZ.

:D ;)

Word.

I mean, who the hell thought Klarion could be a cool character? Croatoan the God who wasn't there appeals to that atheist part of me. Ressurecting your grandfathers as Grundys. What's not to like?

[David Bird]

Great stuff! I am glad to see you're going through with this and how well its coming together. I have been meaning to read through all these all over again, starting with the JLA stuff.

I typed up a few thoughts on Roanoke for another thread:

Originally posted by David Bird

Roanoke
There is a certain romance to be had in “lost colonies.” Whether they are a people out of step with the world around them, or a previously unknown civilization altogether, they have been fodder for utopian visions, tales of Atlantis, and lands of the dinosaur. A true lost colony, the English settlement at Roanoke, has been getting a lot of attention in the funny pages lately.

In 100 Bullets the colony was destroyed as a message to the British crown. The Trust, which secretly rules the New World, was displeased that England would set up a colony in defiance of them and sent their Minute Men out to kill all the settlers. The series follows the aftermath of another message the Trust wanted sent. This time the Minute Men said no. In 100 Bullets Roanoke is the first English settlement.

In Marvel 1602 Roanoke is the home of Virginia Dare and the center of a temporal distortion that sees the Marvel Universe reborn 360 years ahead of time, and Captain America, always the man out of time, brought back to the past and this settlement. US history says that Virginia Dare is the first person born in the New World.

Now Roanoke has been brought into the Seven Soldiers story. The new issue of Klarion tells us that the underground community he is from is the remnants of Roanoke. From the preview for Klarion the Witch Boy #3:


We know the Roanoke colonists experienced what you might call an intimate contact, with something not entirely human. We know that when the first of the changelings were born, those god-fearing folk reverted to an older, darker religion. Like monstrous maggots burrowing away from the clean light, they hid their sins deep underground.


Don’t worry, that’s not a spoiler.

What actually happened at Roanoke is a true mystery. England attempted to settle the area twice. An island in North Carolina, it was a part of the Virginia territories. The first attempt was in 1584. This attempt failed because of a drought and deteriorating relations with the locals. Relations were so bad, in fact, that the English killed the local native leader. The second colony started in 1587. Attempts were made to establish better ties to the natives, and one group, the Croatans were friendly. But most were not. And on August 18th little Virginia Dare was indeed born. Things got so bad with the locals, however, that the Governor returned to England to appeal for help. A war with Spain prevented any from getting there for two years. When they arrived the colony was abandoned. The word “Croatoan” was carved in a tree, and the settlers were sought among the Croatans, but they did not know what had happened. We still don’t, though its mosst likely that they were destroyed by one of the hostile native nations.

While the story of Roonoke is an interesting one, the first English colony in the Americas was actually St. John’s, Newfoundland; founded in 1497, it continues to this day. And the oldest city in the US is Saint Augustine, founded in 1565. Given that St. John’s is 90 years older than Roanoke, and Saint Augustine 22 years older, its unlikely that Ms. Dare is really the first person – white person, of course – born in the Americas.

Another bit of trivia, in Irish myth the Sidhe (Shee), or Tuatha De Danaanhad, had four great weapons: a Stone of Destiny, that determined the rightful king; a spear: that made its holder invincible in battle; a sword, that "no one could escape"; and a cauldron, that never emptied.

[Groovie Mann]

Coolness Bird. I totally forgot about 100 Bullets(great series). And I missed that in 1602(had its parts).

[render man]

Yes according to an interview with Grant Morrison done over at the Pulse at comicon.com the Sheeda are a twist on the Sidhe myths/ideas of long ago.
But thanks for the overview, its given me some info I didnt know before.

[David Bird]

Could the dice be the stone of destiny?

[thefellowship12]

cool overview,

Bulleteer sounds like it is going to be very good indeed, does anybody know what the artist is like?

[Punchy]

Groovie Mann is the new Lorendiac! Cool, guide man.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Punchy
Groovie Mann is the new Lorendiac! Cool, guide man.

No-no-no. I'm not trying to get people to switch to all trades. Buy your monthlies folks.

[Outshined_One]

A quick note about the eight-legged horse the Sheeda queen rides: this could be a reference to Ancient Norse/Germanic mythology.

Odin rides an eight legged horse by the name of Sleipnir, which allows him to travel up and down the world tree, Yggdrasil. Essentially, he can move between the lands of the living and the dead by riding on that horse. Also of note is that the horse is the offspring of the trickster god Loki.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Outshined_One
A quick note about the eight-legged horse the Sheeda queen rides: this could be a reference to Ancient Norse/Germanic mythology.

Odin rides an eight legged horse by the name of Sleipnir, which allows him to travel up and down the world tree, Yggdrasil. Essentially, he can move between the lands of the living and the dead by riding on that horse. Also of note is that the horse is the offspring of the trickster god Loki.

Well, when I saw eight legged horse I just thought they refered to the spiders several sheeda so9ldiers have rode.

I do remember Norse myths had 8 legged horses the gods trode on. Only because of FF7.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Outshined_One
A quick note about the eight-legged horse the Sheeda queen rides: this could be a reference to Ancient Norse/Germanic mythology.

Odin rides an eight legged horse by the name of Sleipnir, which allows him to travel up and down the world tree, Yggdrasil. Essentially, he can move between the lands of the living and the dead by riding on that horse. Also of note is that the horse is the offspring of the trickster god Loki.

The fairy queen of the the Sidhe, or Tuatha De Danaanhad, also rode an eight legged horse. And I think a giant spider is a great interpretaion of that.

[Outshined_One]

Originally posted by David Bird
The fairy queen of the the Sidhe, or Tuatha De Danaanhad, also rode an eight legged horse. And I think a giant spider is a great interpretaion of that.

Norse and Gaelic cultures had plenty of contact with one another and it's been pretty well-established that their mythology crosses over with one another a fair amount (heck, people have been trying to tie Loki to Lugh for years). It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this yet was another cultural crossover.

I like the spider interpretation, too.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by thefellowship12
cool overview,

Bulleteer sounds like it is going to be very good indeed, does anybody know what the artist is like?

Scope it:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/bulleteer1.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

[KebEllis]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Scope it:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mightybroke/bulleteer1.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com"> Boob-eteer :)

Mr. Miracle comes out next week. I have yet to read the conclusions to Guardian and Shining Knight. Gotta get some comics soon.

[Groovie Mann]

just bumping the thread and my post count.

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
just bumping the thread and my post count.

No worries - a good thread.

[BillReed]

Originally posted by KebEllis
Mr. Miracle comes out next week. I have yet to read the conclusions to Guardian and Shining Knight. Gotta get some comics soon.

Guardian #4 may be my favorite issue of the whole mega-series to date. Each successive issue keeps trying to top the previous one in gloriousness.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by BillReed
Guardian #4 may be my favorite issue of the whole mega-series to date. Each successive issue keeps trying to top the previous one in gloriousness.

guardian #4 definitly was the best thus far.

[Doc Holiday]

I love that you are doing this, G-man. When you do the second issues, will you attempt to point out all the connections among all the issues? That's what I am most interested in.

Thanks for your work.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
I love that you are doing this, G-man. When you do the second issues, will you attempt to point out all the connections among all the issues? That's what I am most interested in.

Thanks for your work.

definitly. i'm actually rereading each issue and then checking all the ntoes i've scquired before writing down the info.

also pointing out the cast because certain people show up here and there.

[Groovie Mann]

working on the next segment, head hurts big time. should be done tomorrow.

s. knight #2
m. guardian #2
zatanna 32
klarion #2

plus stuff on the number 7

[Groovie Mann]

The Power of the Number 7

Chakra: The word chakra is Sanskrit for wheel or disk and signifies one of seven basic energy centers in the body. Each of these centers correlates to major nerve ganglia branching forth from the spinal column. In addition the chakras also correlate to levels of consciousness, archetypal elements, developmental stages of life, colors, sounds, body functions, and much, much more.
More info at here (http://www.sacredcenters.com/chakras.html)

Chakra 1: Earth, Physical identity, oriented to self-preservation
Located at the base of the spine, this chakra forms our foundation. It represents the element earth, and is therefore related to our survival instincts, and to our sense of grounding and connection to our bodies and the physical plane. Ideally this chakra brings us health, prosperity, security, and dynamic presence.

Chakra 2: Water, Emotional identity, oriented to self-gratification
The second chakra, located in the abdomen, lower back, and sexual organs, is related to the element water, and to emotions and sexuality. It connects us to others through feeling, desire, sensation, and movement. Ideally this chakra brings us fluidity and grace, depth of feeling, sexual fulfillment, and the ability to accept change.

Chakra 3: Fire, Ego identity, oriented to self-definition
This chakra is known as the power chakra, located in the solar plexus. It rules our personal power, will, and autonomy, as well as our metabolism. When healthy, this chakra brings us energy, effectiveness, spontaneity, and non-dominating power.

Chakra 4: Air, Social identity, oriented to self-acceptance
This chakra is called the heart chakra and is the middle chakra in a system of seven. It is related to love and is the integrator of opposites in the psyche: mind and body, male and female, persona and shadow, ego and unity. A healthy fourth chakra allows us to love deeply, feel compassion, have a deep sense of peace and centeredness

Chakra 5: Sound, Creative identity, oriented to self-expression
This is the chakra located in the throat and is thus related to communication and creativity. Here we experience the world symbolically through vibration, such as the vibration of sound representing language.

Chakra 6: Light, Archetypal identity, oriented to self-reflection
This chakra is known as the brow chakra or third eye center. It is related to the act of seeing, both physically and intuitively. As such it opens our psychic faculties and our understanding of archetypal levels. When healthy it allows us to see clearly, in effect, letting us "see the big picture."

Chakra 7: Thought, Universal identity, oriented to self-knowledge
This is the crown chakra that relates to consciousness as pure awareness. It is our connection to the greater world beyond, to a timeless, spaceless place of all-knowing. When developed, this chakra brings us knowledge, wisdom, understanding, spiritual connection, and bliss.


7 Virtues/Sins
7) Jealousy/Generosity
6) Pride/Humility
5) Envy/Love (Charity)
4) Sloth/Zeal
3) Anger/Kindness
2) Lust/Self-Control
1) Gluttony/Faith and Temperance

In folk stories and legends the number would seem to express the seven stages of matter, the seven degrees of awareness and the seven stages of evolution:

awareness of the physical body: cravings satisfied simply and brutally
awareness of the emotions; impulses become more complex through feeling and imagination
awareness of intellect; the individual classifies, arranges and reasons
awareness of intuition; relationship with the unconscious becomes apparent
awareness of spirituality; detachment from worldly things
awareness of will; thought is transmitted into action
awareness of life; directing action towards eternal life and salvation.


Shining Knight #2
Art by Simone Bianchi & Dave Stewart
Characters: Justin, Guilt, Crazyface, Vanguard/Horsefeathers, Don Vincenzo, Strato, Ali Ka-Zoom(cameo/unnamed), Neh-Buh-Loh
Summary: Mood 7 Mind Destroyer opens as Justin fights and gets away from the LAPD. He then finds himself lost in Los Angeles, 2005 confused at the events that transpired and the ending to the war with the Sheeda 10,000 years in the past. On his wanderings he finds himself confronted by Guilt, a mood 7 mind destroyer sent to make Justin kill himself. While this goes o the undying don, Vincenzo and his men are given Vanguard by police officer that are under they’re employ. His time with Vanguard(who he renames Horsefeathers, is short as Neh-Buh-Loh ledas his men to attack the Dons home. Justin meanwhiles overcomes his guilt and defends a homeless man from a coupe of punks. That homeless man is Al -Kaz-Zoom

Things of Note
The poster on page 6, panel 3 reads "Cup of Blood: A Spy, A Mermaid, and a Treasure As Old As Time Itself." 'Cup of Blood,' which evokes the Holy Grail, which may connect to the Cauldron from Shining Knight #1. Room for speculation here regarding the nature of the Grail, the Grail Quest, and its Celtic antecedents (i.e. the Daghda's cauldron).

Look up Spenser's Faerie Queen about the Red Cross Knight facing Despair.

In connection to the Castle Revolving which appeared in the first issue and mention a few times here.

Spoils of Annwn

Preiddu Annwfn
From the Book of Taliesin
Collated by Charles Squire from translations by Skene, Stephens, Nash and Rhys.
here (http://www.mythiccrossroads.com/annwn.htm)


I will praise the Sovereign, supreme Lord of the land,
Who hath extended his dominion over the shore of the world.
Stout was the prison of Gweir1, in Caer Sidi,
Through the Spite of Pwyll and Pryderi:
No one before him went into it.
The heavy blue chain firmly held the youth,
And before the spoils of Annwn woefully he sang,
And thenceforth till doom he shall remain a bard.
Thrice enough to fill Prydwen2 we went into it;
Except seven, none returned from Caer Sidi3.

Am I not a candidate for fame, to be heard in song
In Caer Pedryvan4, for times revolving?
The first word from the cauldron, when was it spoken?
By the breath of nine maidens it was gently warmed.
Is it not the cauldron of the chief of Annwn? What is its fashion?
A rim of pearls is round its edge.
It will not cook the food of a coward or one foresworn.
A sword flashing bright will be raised to him,
And left in the hand of Lleminawg.
And before the door of the gate of Uffern5 the lamp was burning.
When we went with Arthur - a splendid labour! -
Except seven, none returned from Caer Vedwyd6.

Am I not a candidate for fame, to be heard in song
In Caer Pedryvan, in the Isle of the Strong Door,
Where twilight and pitchy darkness meet together,
And bright wine is the drink of the host?
Thrice enough to fill Prydwen we went into the sea.
Except seven, none returned from Caer Rigor7.

I will not allow much praise to the leaders of literature.
Beyond Caer Wydyr8 they saw not the prowess of Arthur;
Three-score hundreds stood on the walls;
It was hard to converse with their watchman.
Thrice enough to fill Prydwen we went with Arthur;
Except seven, none returned from Caer Golud9.

I will not allow much praise to the spiritless.
They know not on what day, or who caused it,
Or in what hour of the serene day Cwy was born,
Or who caused that he should not go to the dales of Devwy.
They know not the brindled ox with the broad headband,
Whose yoke is seven-score handbreadths.
When we went with Arthur, of mournful memory,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Vandwy10.

I will not allow much praise to those of drooping courage
They know not on what day the chief arose,
Nor in what hour of the serene day the owner was born,
Nor what animal they keep, with its head of silver.
When we went with Arthur, of anxious striving,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Ochren11.

NOTES:
1: A form of the name Gwydion
2: The name of Arthur's ship
3: Revolving Castle
4: Four-cornered castle
5: The Cold Place
6: Castle of Revelry.
7: Kingly Castle
8: Glass Castle
9: Castle of Riches
10: Meaning is unknown
11: Meaning is unknown

Caer Sidhe translates to Castle of the Sidhe(Sheeda)


Possible referencing of the epic set of poems the Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser based on the comparisons of Guilt to battling Sir Justin to Despayre(Despair) battling the Faeire Queens main character the Knight Redcrosse.
More on the subject at www.sparksnotes.com/poetry/fqueen/ (http://www.sparksnotes.com/poetry/fqueen/)

Ali Ka-Zoom makes a cameo and catches the bus. Appears in Zatanna.

The Don has the Cauldron.


Manhattan Guardian #2
Art by Cameron Stewart & Moose Baumann
Characters: Jake Jordan, Carla Marcus, Capt. No-Beard, Capt. All Beard, Mr. Ed Stargard, Fiths With Chains, Jenny Greenteeth, Hands
Summary: Homeless Superior finds Jake Jordan/Guardian teaming with Capt. No-Beard and his crew of the Clinton to rescue his girlfriend Carla from the clutches of Capt. All-Beard. The two pirate captains fighting over a mystical treasure which turns out to be a six sided dice(of six sided god machine as its called in the story).

Things of Note
Refernce to Klarions witch-people: “… they told tales of underground markets where puritan kiddie-snatchers from hell came to trade with talking rats.”
Back in Klarion you may remember the sequence between Ezekiel and Klarion where the following was mentioned as a reference to the setting of Guardian: “There's not much to see beyond High Market, just tunnels and rails and stone and more tunnels.”


The theme of guilt continues. Jordan still for the death of the 13 year old kid referenced in issue 1 and now for leaving his girlfriends father as he laid dying(to rescue her of course).

The demon Horigal from issue #1 of Klarion is seen in this issue showing it cross paths further with Guardian.

Post off CBR forums about the pirates and what they could possibly represent: “After further reflection on the All-Beard/No-Beard/False-Beard trinity, I'm starting to think there was another layer there: the big difference between All-Beard and No-Beard is All-Beard's poetic, visionary language and the lack thereof in No-Beard, who is relatively straightforward in his speech. Couple this with the naming of his train as the President Clinton; the two best known attributes of Clinton in the popular mind are his status as leader of the world's only remaining super-power and his penchent for chasing women: so, material, worldly power and physical, worldly pleasure. Is the contrast between a materialist No-Beard and a visionary All-Beard? At the next layer down, though, I think there is the identity between the two I talked about earlier: they are both pirate kings (violent, predatory, unlawful authority), both on a mistaken quest, both False-Beards, representing false promises of power [or, perhaps better, fulfillment].”

Then again, one CBR poster had this to say on the subject: [I]“If that interpretation of the 'All-Beard/No-Beard', metaphor is true, than it's very flattering to Morrison. He comes off as a result as the rebel, whereas Moore is the traditionalist, the stodgy 'bearded', authority figure. Which frankly is fairly suspect. Morrison early on identified Moore as the 'other chaos mage'. I remember a fawning e-mail that was prominently displayed on his website, asking if Morrison could introduce the person in question to Moore. This provided Morrison with just the opportunity to play up this rivalry/resentment between the elder figure and this young turk from Glasgow!

It was a bit much. After all Morrison uses chaos magick not only as a lifestyle, but as another method of self-promotion. That's business as usual on planet Morrison, but the lectures on magick he delivers adds an extra layer of exoticism to the persona he presents through the media. Moore if anything seems to be quite private with his 'studies'. It's more of a literary puzzle to him almost, an unveiling. He uses it to fuel his stories and whole sections of Promethea did double as a lecture.

All-Beard/No-Beard should be read I think as a more generalized metaphor between the 'old' and the 'new', past and future. But I don't see either Morrison or Moore as representing either of these positions, as they merely use magick in different ways, personal explorations more than any particular world view.”

"God doesn't play dice" -- Einstein.
“Does so too" /chrodinger.
"Any God worth his salt uses 20-sided dice" -- Steve Jackson

From my understanding Cameron Stewart, who dropped by Barbelith, pointed out a major difference in Morrisons script and the final project. Morrison's script didn't call for No-Beard to win, and that you weren't supposed to be able to tell whether the zombie in the last panel was No-Beard or All-Beard.

No Sheeda sightings or mentioning.


Zatanna #2
Written by Grant Morrison
Art by Ryan Sook, Mick Gray, & Nathan Eyring
Characters: Zatanna, Misty Kilgore, Gwydion, Cassandra Craft, Prowley the cat, Ali Ka-Zoom?(cameo), Phantom Stranger(cameo)
Summary: A Book in the Beginning has Zatanna being accompanied by her apprentice Misty heading to a magic store owned by Cassandra Craft. There Zatanna prepares for battle with Gwydion who people are referring to as the shapeless one. There she also learns about a mysterious man whose come seeking her and finds Ali Ka-Zooms cabinet.

Things of Note
Six-sided dice, same one from Guardian? And if so, how did Misty get it?

Dyna-Mite rings were sold by Cassandra Craft, reference to Seven Soldiers Special #0

Zatara leaves his hat at Cassandras store and says “Tell her. Tell her I came back for the books.” Is it Zatara whose known to be dead in the DCU? The hat matches the one he wore in the flashback in Zatanna #1.

I should point out that since the get go there’s been speculation about who Misty is. “… some kind of familiar or homunculus inadvertantly created by Zee.”

Remember me talking about chakra? Cassandra mentions it in issue 2.

Strange gang of hero kids…. Ali Ka-Zoom the Merlin of the ghetto… Newsboy army. References Guardian and hints a connection between the events in Zatanna and Guardian. Also Ali Ka-Zoom was in Los Angeles and met Shining Knight so with Zatanna #2 we have the a foundation for the connections in the books.

Page 12, final couple panels with the Zatanna autobiography Mitsys looking at, the poem there references or is a part of Cad Goddeau. I’d put the poem up but it is extremely long. So here’s the link instead. here (http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/.../cad_goddeu.htm)

But since I’m nice, the first part.
I have been a mulitude of shapes,
Before I assumed a consistant form.
I have been a sword, narrow, variegated,
I will believe when it is apparent.
I have been a tear in the air,
I have been in the dullest of stars.
I have been a word among letters,
I have been a book in the origin.
I have been the light of lanterns,
A year and a half.
I have been a continuing bridge,
Over three score river-mouths.
I have been a course, I have been an eagle.
I have been a coracle in the sea.
I have been complaint in the banquet.
I have been a drop in a shower;
I have been a sword in the grasp of a hand.
I have been a shield in battle.
I have been a string in a harp,
Disguised for nine years.
In water, in foam,
I have been a sponge in fire,
I have been wood in covert.


Klarion the Witch Boy #2
Art by Frazer Irving
Characters: Klarion, Teekl, Horigal, Ebeneezer Badde, Leviathan, Trio of underworld ddwellers, rat kings, Mister Melmoth
Summary: Badde finds Klarion receiving help from the Horigal monster by his own wits, luck, and a man named Ebeneezer Badde. Badde, an escapee of Limbo Town himself shows Klarion the Croatoan and explains that their gods are simply false. Badde takes Klarion to some individuals who goal is to trap the boy and sell him for a price. Klarion, with his cat Teekl, summon the human monster Leviathan. Klarion finally makes it to “blue rafters” and there is greeted by Mister Melmoth.

Things of Note
Never read the Bible but lucky me someone has and has brought up some interesting tidbits in their view to issue 2 of Klarion: The very first page, where the Horigal says "Ye broke the Law!" and "Ye shall be judged!" to me went a step beyond confirming what we'd all already noticed - that the Submissionaries represented authoritarian organized religion. It and subsequent pronouncements from the Horigal immediately evoked for me the Old Testament as opposed to the New testament. The clincher is when the Horigal rants "Ye have no advocate! There is no redemption!" since redemption is exactly what Jesus brought to humanity (or at least that part of it lucky enough to hear his message) according to Christian doctrine. The missing advocate would be a Jesus figure.

However, right after that statement from the Horigal (stand-in for the vindictive an wrathful god of the Old Testament?), Klarion is in fact saved by Ebeneezer Badde, so maybe we do have our Jesus figure. But, if so, what a comment on Christianity: Badde sells Klarion to unknown forces who have a literal, physical cage all prepared for him. So the "redemption" offered by the New Testament merely leads to a differnt kind of bondage. That Klarion is sold into this bondage by his Badde saviour is a very fair comment on the entire nature of Christian doctrine IMO: the very word "redemption" itself has implications of the buying and selling of slaves - something glossed over all too often (check out William Empson's 'Milton's God' for more on this idea). I grant that I may be projecting my own feelings onto Morrison's story here once again, though.

In another twist, Ebeneezer (like his Dickensian namesake?) has a last-minute change of heart and tries to save Klarion again, this time from his (Badde's) own betrayal. It looks like he was killed by Leviathan, but I hope Badde survives; good character.

Bur there's another way of looking at Badde, one which appears to conrtradict everything I just said above: his general attitude and several of his specific lines mark him as a man who has lost faith in anything beyond the immediate material world he can perceive thorugh his senses and in any goal beyond crass gratification of his physical needs/desires. I'm thinking of his bounty of porno books and booze
for delivering Klarion, lines like "why bother with gods and heroes at all?" and of course his statement about the absent, i.e. non-existent, god Croatoan.

But Klarion, right before that statment of Badde's, shows that he has the opposite view: ""I've always felt that ... well, he [Klarion's real father] was still alive somewhere. Perhaps he reached Blue Rafters and dwells there where I will find him." In other words, 'Our Father, Who art in Heaven, ...'. The fact that Badde's response to this speech of Klarion's is "You're all alone." (i.e. there is no father, no Father, no Croatoan, no God) reinforces what I said in the paragraph above.

Ebeneezer Badde: “You have the look of Limbo Town- The Sheeda face.” The Witch people are descendents of the Sheeda in some way.

Name Ebeneezer(Ebenezer) comes from Hebrew meaning the helping rock(?).

Klarions fathers name is Mordeci and he apparently disappered years ago. Klarion believes him alive in “Blue Rafters.”

Badde: “Maybe there was a god here once but he’s long, long gone. He escaped and left us on here alone. Only his dreadful chains remain.” Reference to Loki who was chained up underground with poison dripping on him(the toxic waste around the treasure as seen in Guardian #2). If so that would mean the beginning stages of Ragnarok. Then again, you can always count on other religions/mythologies to have gods or deities chained under earth in some torture.

The location of the treasure in Guardian #2 is the House of Croatoan where Witch-Men came to be initiated. Here Klarion retrieves the dice where dozens of dead subway pirates sit.

King Rat was a villain in the British pantomine Dick
Whittington. here (http://www.eslcafe.com/ideas/sefer.cgi?display:963985064-8136.txt)


Charles Robert Maturin’s Melmoth the Wanderer
(1820)/Gothic literature

The publication of Charles' Maturin's Melmoth the Wanderer in 1820 is the last of what some critics have called the Classic Gothic novel and for others marks the end of the true Gothic novel. His forte is showing character under extreme conditions, both psychologically and physically; Melmoth has sold his soul to the devil to live another one hundred fifty years, with an out, if he can only find someone else to take his place.

Chapter 3 (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1184867#post1184867)

[David Bird]

Looks good (though I don't have time to read through it right now). I can give you some more stuff on seven later, but I thought I'd bring something to your attention.

7 Virtues/Sins
7) Jealousy/Generosity
6) Pride/Humility
5) Envy/Love (Charity)
4) Sloth/Zeal
3) Anger/Kindness
2) Lust/Self-Control
1) Gluttony/Faith and Temperance

Your title is Virtues/Sins, but the list is sins/virtues. Of course, it could be your personal list.
;) :D

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by David Bird
Looks good (though I don't have time to read through it right now). I can give you some more stuff on seven later, but I thought I'd bring something to your attention.



Your title is Virtues/Sins, but the list is sins/virtues. Of course, it could be your personal list.
;) :D

yeah, i try to be different.

you know, going through this again... made me realize i didn't actually notice zatara in issue 2 of zatanna. i went back and checked issue 1 to look at his hat and if its not him, he has the same hat.

wonder if this mean zataras back from the dead.

[KebEllis]

I just read the final Shining Knight and Guardian issues. They were great, especially Guardian (which is awesome now!) and wow, I can't wait for the #1 issue.

And Groovie Mann, are you putting this stuff up on a website? I like it.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by KebEllis
I just read the final Shining Knight and Guardian issues. They were great, especially Guardian (which is awesome now!) and wow, I can't wait for the #1 issue.

And Groovie Mann, are you putting this stuff up on a website? I like it.

i could probably design a small site for it. but i'll worry about that later becauise, well, i just deleted a ton of html on some geocities and thats means i'd have to relearn how to put it together.

ph, and guardian #4 was rgeat. i use to not like that one but 3-4 really turned it into my favorite in the set so far.

[Groovie Mann]

bump for 7S love.

[Banana_Oil]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses


"Originally it had very little to do with them [the first Seven Soldiers of Victory]," Morrison said. "I just liked the name 'Seven Soldiers' and thought it fit my project well. As the story developed, I decided to tie as much as I could into continuity as well, which turned into an insane kind of Geoff Johns/James Robinson strand running through the narrative, which fully integrates my seven soldiers into the history of all the previous characters and reveals an 'Identity Crisis' style secret at the heart of the Golden Age team. Most of that stuff is in Bulleteer issue 2. I also have a new version of the Greg Sanders Vigilante turning up in that story - think High Plains Drifter, and Unforgiven, shake in a little Ghost Rider and bake until Bulleteer # 2 hits the stands. We're also doing the origin of the cosmic character Oracle, from Justice League 100 - 102, the 'Unknown Soldier of Victory' and learn the secret of Earth's first superhero. The whole thing is very deeply rooted in DC history but the connections are hopefully subtle enough that, while long-time fans will appreciate all the Easter Eggs, new readers, who may be picking up their first comic book, will also be able to get a complete and entertaining story that requires no knowledge of old comic books."

A-ha. I'm glad he's not quite done with Greg Sanders*. And I'm glad he remembers the original Oracle--DC is very short on the kind of Big Cosmic Entities that Marvel has in spades. Whatever next--a comeback for The Council of Sentient Suns?


*My prediction: "Ah operate outside th' law--OF PHYSICS, pardnuh!"

[HowAreWeToLive]

Thanks for this.

[rodolfo leon]

just finished reading The Manhattan Guardian #4 and my brain exploded. :eek:

[DiscoVietnam]

Originally posted by rodolfo leon
just finished reading The Manhattan Guardian #4 and my brain exploded. :eek:

Awesome, eh? Although I'm still not sure how you managed to type that sentence...

[rodolfo leon]

Originally posted by DiscoVietnam
Awesome, eh? Although I'm still not sure how you managed to type that sentence...

hey man, i've been reading Morrison for some years now. i kinda guessed i had to carry a spare brain after a near-miss while reading the Mystery Play's crossword puzzle scene.

[Banana_Oil]

re: Mind-Grabber Kid.

MGK is a very powerful psychic who made only one appearance (Justice League of America #70). He swore one day he'd be a real superhero.

[AndrewHickey]

"Guilt, a mood 7 mind destroyer sent to make Justin kill himself. "
This is actually a personification of Justin's own guilt - according to an interview with Morrison which I can't remember where I read it, Justin is from a time when the corpus callossum was thinner than it is now, and communication between the spheres of the brain was often hallucinatory.
This of course raises the question of whether there was guilt at all before the fall of Camelot - was guilt invented by the Sheeda, and was the original Camelot in (literally) a prelapsarian state of innocence? Fall of Camelot as a metaphor/analogue/isomorphism of/to the Biblical fall?

BTW was I the only person who thought that the 'Zatarra on Letterman' segment was misplaced in Zatanna #1? It should obviously come between Zatanna reminscing and the woman saying "Oh, I remember you! You were so cute!" (paraphrased as I've lent my 7 Soldiers stuff to a friend)

Ebeneezer Badde is a reference to the song by the Shamen, Ebeneezer Goode

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
"Guilt, a mood 7 mind destroyer sent to make Justin kill himself. "
This is actually a personification of Justin's own guilt - according to an interview with Morrison which I can't remember where I read it, Justin is from a time when the corpus callossum was thinner than it is now, and communication between the spheres of the brain was often hallucinatory.
This of course raises the question of whether there was guilt at all before the fall of Camelot - was guilt invented by the Sheeda, and was the original Camelot in (literally) a prelapsarian state of innocence? Fall of Camelot as a metaphor/analogue/isomorphism of/to the Biblical fall?

BTW was I the only person who thought that the 'Zatarra on Letterman' segment was misplaced in Zatanna #1? It should obviously come between Zatanna reminscing and the woman saying "Oh, I remember you! You were so cute!" (paraphrased as I've lent my 7 Soldiers stuff to a friend)

Ebeneezer Badde is a reference to the song by the Shamen, Ebeneezer Goode

thanks for all the info. didn't know about the song. as for guilt, i assumed he was trying to make justin kill himself.

[4DGlasses]

Lots of great stuff Groovie. Your research and info swapping is GREATLY appreciated.

Mister Miracle #1 tomorrow! How does Kirby's Fourth World tie into 7S???

[BillReed]

The Sheeda are from The First World, aren't they?

[rodolfo leon]

Originally posted by BillReed
The Sheeda are from The First World, aren't they?

i would like to think so, but i kinda got this silly feeling they're from the future... no, really! it was something the Queen said in Shining Knight #3.

anyways. i'm probably dead wrong. :p

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by rodolfo leon
i would like to think so, but i kinda got this silly feeling they're from the future... no, really! it was something the Queen said in Shining Knight #3.

anyways. i'm probably dead wrong. :p

Well, we know that *Neh-bul-oh* is from the future - to be more precise Neh-bul-oh is *our universe* in the future...

[Groovie Mann]

bump, going tot ry and update this tonight but mroe likely tomorrow or sunday.

[KebEllis]

Did anyone pick up Mr. Miracle #1? If yes, how was it?

I won't be getting it until next week, so don't spoil it for me.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by KebEllis
Did anyone pick up Mr. Miracle #1? If yes, how was it?

I won't be getting it until next week, so don't spoil it for me.

my review at PBR (http://paperbackreader.com/review.php?ReviewID=939)

[KebEllis]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
my review at PBR (http://paperbackreader.com/review.php?ReviewID=939) heh, thanks.

[Trachman]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Got that from barbelith.com as well.

Notice that because Arthur is a king he doesn't count as a soldier, thus six soldiers battling the sheeda. One could argue Wonder Woman as well but seeing as shes considered an amazon warrior and in current continutiy is no longer a princess, she counts as a soldier.

Of course, peredeur is blind which is how that comaprion relaly worked since Diana was blind at the time as well.

Head hurts again... Are they coming out with a trade to this series.

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by Trachman
Are they coming out with a trade to this series.

nothing annoucned yet and i doubt we'll ehar anything until around the ending of the series.

[KebEllis]

Originally posted by Trachman
Are they coming out with a trade to this series. Yeah, they'll be out soon enough. This is DC's "other mega-crossover" ;)

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by KebEllis
Did anyone pick up Mr. Miracle #1? If yes, how was it?

I won't be getting it until next week, so don't spoil it for me.

Not as good as the other series - less happening in it compared to the other #1s. VERY strong art, and still better than most things out there. LOTS of New Gods/Fourth World stuff. Still very interesting, but more 'decompressed' feeling than the other first issues.
Not meant to be a knock on the issue - if I didn't have such high expectations of 7 Soldiers I'd be praising it to the skies - it's just that this is merely very, very, very good, and I've come to expect superlative from this series.

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by Trachman
Are they coming out with a trade to this series.

Almost certainly, but 7 Soldiers is not something you should read in trade format. More than any other comic I've read recently, it's designed to be read as single issues, in the order in which they come out. You'd totally miss the interconnections if you read, say, all of Shining Knight then all of Klarion, or whatever...
Plus it's an odd one to collect into trades - seven four-issue series, two bookends, plus the three-issue JLA: Classified run. It's not something that could be collected easily.
Get the issues. It's worth it.

[Groovie Mann]

new artist (http://www.billydallaspatton.com)

more americanized manga look but i think, with the tone of the book, it should work fine. some of his pin ups and sequentials look nice. especially his redesign on gen 13.

[Groovie Mann]

okay, i'm starting work on zatanna and then klarion. after that i'll post it all here for your enjoyment. then... well, i'll email what i ahve done to 4D Glasses who is going to take this crap and make do soem website mumbo jumbo complete withpics and links and what not.

i'm not sure how i'm going to do it after this. might jumble sk, guardian, and miracle #1 into a single post and then do zatanna and klarion as a single post. or i might just do all five when klarion finishes.

oh wait, zatannas gonna be late right? damn... well, just an extra week i think...

[rodolfo leon]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
Almost certainly, but 7 Soldiers is not something you should read in trade format. More than any other comic I've read recently, it's designed to be read as single issues, in the order in which they come out. You'd totally miss the interconnections if you read, say, all of Shining Knight then all of Klarion, or whatever...
Plus it's an odd one to collect into trades - seven four-issue series, two bookends, plus the three-issue JLA: Classified run. It's not something that could be collected easily.
Get the issues. It's worth it.

in a perfect world, instead of releasing 'trades' of these comics, they'd release some kinda slipcase with each chapter (individual issue) printed separately with no ads, that way you can set them up in whatever order you want/need (by title, or by release date).

at 33 chapters (30 Seven Soldiers issues + 3 JLA:C), it might be a bit pricey, but people should've gotten the singles in the first place! :p ;)

this series is one of the few projects that's clearly built as a periodical read, and not as a chaptered single story. the ammount of clue-hunting that each issue requires fills the two-week wait for each issue, and the modular structure of the maxi-series is awe-inspiring.

whoever reads this whole thing in "one-sitting" is gonna REALLY miss out. ;)

[David Bird]

Originally posted by rodolfo leon
in a perfect world, instead of releasing 'trades' of these comics, they'd release some kinda slipcase with each chapter (individual issue) printed separately with no ads, that way you can set them up in whatever order you want/need (by title, or by release date).

at 33 chapters (30 Seven Soldiers issues + 3 JLA:C), it might be a bit pricey, but people should've gotten the singles in the first place! :p ;)

this series is one of the few projects that's clearly built as a periodical read, and not as a chaptered single story. the ammount of clue-hunting that each issue requires fills the two-week wait for each issue, and the modular structure of the maxi-series is awe-inspiring.

whoever reads this whole thing in "one-sitting" is gonna REALLY miss out. ;)

You know McSweeney's does stuff like that all the time. So, its not out of the realm of the possible.

[rodolfo leon]

Originally posted by David Bird
You know McSweeney's does stuff like that all the time. So, its not out of the realm of the possible.

hmmm. so, i might as well stop "daydreaming" and officially move into "wishful thinking" and "finger-crossing" ;)

[Planetary]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
Not as good as the other series - less happening in it compared to the other #1s. VERY strong art, and still better than most things out there. LOTS of New Gods/Fourth World stuff. Still very interesting, but more 'decompressed' feeling than the other first issues.
Not meant to be a knock on the issue - if I didn't have such high expectations of 7 Soldiers I'd be praising it to the skies - it's just that this is merely very, very, very good, and I've come to expect superlative from this series.

I felt the same way, but for an opposite reason. Decompression wasn't the problem. An escape from a black hole, introduction to a god who is in need of help, and a brief, but informative history of Mr. Miracle.

[Groovie Mann]

Power of 7

These are in the Book of Revelations (chapter and verse are in parenthesis):
Seven churches (1:4).
Seven golden candlesticks (1:12).
Seven stars (1:16).
Seven lamps of fire burning before the throne [of God], which are the seven Spirits of God (4:5).
Seven seals (5:1)
[Saw a] lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes (5:6).
Seven angels (8:2).
Seven trumpets (8:6).
[An angel spoke with] a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices (10:3).
[As a result of] the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand (11:13).
[Saw] a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads (12:3).
[Saw a] beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (13:1).
The seven last plagues (15:1)
Seven golden vials full of the wrath of God (15:7).

(Thank you David Bird)

Shining Knight #3
Art by Simone Bianchi & Dave Stewart
Characters: Bors, Peredur, Galahad, Mordredd the Undead, Sir Justin, Helen Helligan, Gloria Friday/Sheeda Queen, I, Spyder
Summary: The Perfect Knight Return finds two FBI agents interrogating Sir Justin who turns himself over to the police. Justin is seeking to put together soldiers to battle the Sheeda Queen and save the world. However the Sheeda are already here and seeking the elimination of their adversaries. Gloria Friday is actually the Sheeda Queen. She kidnaps Justin, takes Arthurs sword, and reintroduces him to Galahad who is now under her control.

Things of Note
The Sheeda are responsible for all major civilization collapses.

The knights Bors, Peredur and Galahad brought back from Ysse three imperishable treasures. Some digging says that Ysse might be Gila Ysse which in certain myths/stories was an elven kingdom that stood for Golden Sanctuary. http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/vortexshadow/history.html

CBR Forums: Quote from page 2: " There, eight miles below sea level, they split the building blocks of matter itself on their anvils."

Am I right in thinking that this- will be/was/will have been - the "six-sided god-machine"? It fits for me, because if "the building blocks of matter itself" are "split" - i.e. if we dare to follow quantum theory to its inevitable conclusions and search beneath (oh, so loaded, these terms) the surface of what we see as reality ("matter itself"), we will be forced to confront the possibility that our so-called reality is based on nothing more than probability/chance?

Back in Klarion #2 there was a scene between one of the children of the Leviathan and Klarion about Guardians helmet(left from Guardian #2) and Klairon suggested making it a pot. There’s been speculation about this being a Holy Grail reference. If so it was Peredur, Galahad and Bors who found the treasure bt only Bors survived to bring it to Arthur and tell the tale.

CBR Forums: Mabinogion, Peredur is another version of Pryderi, the Underworld King killed by our old buddy Gwydion. And of course, the name is also the original of Perceval, one of the Grail Quest heroes. Galahad of course later supplanted everyon and became THE major Grail hero, expecially when the Christan aspects of the myth became dominant. Don't recall much about Bors, or where that character fits in Arthurian myth.

More on Mabinogion check out http://www.mabinogion.info/ (http://www.mabinogion.info/)

I, Spyder who first appeared in Seven Soldiers Special #0 appears within this pages and a soldier in the Sheeda.


The Manhattan Guardian #3
Art by Cameron Stewart & Moose Baumann
Characters: Jake Jordan/Guardian, Ed Stargard, Newsboy Legion, Carla Marcus, Lauren Marcus, Jorge Control, Hanna Control
Summary: In Siege At Century Hollow the Guardian breaks into century hollow, a scientific facility studying population and statistics, where the robots have gone insane. It’s up to guardian to save the people. However the Guardian is dealing with real life troubles as his girlfriend breaks up with him angry that he left her father to rescue her. The problems have lead Guardian to quit his job and discover that ed Stargard is actually a deformed man, a full grown individual stuck in a babys body.

Things of Note
What are the seven weapons? And is Guardians his helmet which has been a recurring theme because of it’s appearance in Seven Soldiers #0 and Klarion #2.

Ed Stargard is Baby Brains from the orginal newsboy Army mentioned in Zatanna #3. Ali Ka-Zoom in that series(and Shining Knight #2) is Merlin of the Ghetto. Don Vincenzo from Shining Knight #2 is Kid Scarface. Some speculation that Captain 7 is actually Carlas father but I doubt that, and I’ll explain why when we get to Guardian #4.

Century Hollow- possibly a comment on the hollowness/shallowness of contemporary life.

Know who Osamu Tezuka is? The godfather of manga? Well in his story Cyborg 009 there was a cyborg character 001 who was a baby with mental abilities. Basiclaly tezuka is like Japans Jack Kirby in the since his style greatly influenced the industry and what was produced there after. On another side note, Tezuka himself was partly inspired by Walt Disney. So, in essence, all manga is a direct relative of Disney animation. Bite on that manga haters!!!!

Hey look, no Sheeda reference. But Ed Stargard does mention ‘Seven Soldiers.’


Zatanna #3
Art by Ryan Sook, Mick Gray, &Nathan Ryring
Characters: Zatanna, Misty, Tempter, Grim Reaper/Bus Driver, Ali Ka-Zoom, Gwydion in a Jar, Vanguard, Don Vincenzo, Neh-Buh-Loh
Summary: Three Days of the Dead has Zatanna and Misty traveling around continuing Mistys training. There they exorcise the demon tempter and On the road they run into Ali Ka-Zoom whose come to seek out his cabinet. They head to Don Vincenzos mansion and uncover dead corpses. and the Sheeda trying to take away Vanguard. The Sheeda soldiers stand back and bow to Misty as Ali Ka-Zoom greet his dead friend, Don, formerly Kid Scarface. Misty and Zatanna are told to find the cauldron and the Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp. But before they set out they run into Neh-Buh-Loh and we learn Misty si the Sheeda princess who Neh-Buh-Loh was suppose to kill. Vanguard saves the two at the end.

Things of Note
More connection to the 7 sins. Justins guilt, Zatannas desire. Possibly Guardians wrath and for Bulleteer vanity/pride based on her origins. Of course, just speculation at this point.

Certina Brothers Grimm associatin appears in this story dealing in part with Gloriana the step-mother, Neh-Buh-Loh the huntsman, and Misty the princess. I’m nto exactly sure about the step-mother piece but seeing as she got rid of Misty because she didn’t want a princess… who knows, doesn’t feel like any real motherly love.

Lets go to CBR Forums shall we: I think the revelations about Misty's origins are very significant in regard to this idea. Misty's step-mother, Gloriana Tenebrae intends to live forever and arranges to have her natural successor, the Princess, Misty, killed. If the natural function of the Sheeda is as described above, it could be that it's Gloriana's unnatural desire to live forever that is at the root of their villainous behavior (attacking and destroying civilizations before their time is due). Gloriana has attempted to interrupt the natural cycle of her own kingdom in the opposite sense: by extending her own reign past its allotted span. If Misty had succeeded her step-mother as she was supposed to have done, perhaps the Sheeda would not have become the villains they are in this story.

Ali-Ka-Zoom's line, "We're here to attend the end of empires and childhood dreams" might reflect on some of these concepts. "The end of emnpires" could reflect the natural collapse or premature destruction of civilisations that the Sheeda are involved with, depending on whether or not they are fulfilling or exceeding their natural function.

"The end of childhood dreams" might reflect on Misty's situation. Although her step-mother did not succeed in killing her, she did succeed in preventing Misty from taking her place. In other words, Misty's natural development, which presumably should have led to her becoming Queen of the Sheeda, has been interrupted. Her loss of memory is both a part and representative of the loss of her true identity (Princess and later, Queen). This "arrested development" has left her in a state of perpetual childhood, the natural cycle of birth, development and death has been interrupted, and this is reflected in Misty's physical appearance as a young girl. From this POV, "the end of childhood dreams" may not be a negative thing, but rather a necessary step forward, an indication that Misty is about to resume her natural process of maturation.

The name of the Sheeda kingdom, "Summer's End" is another thing that might reflerct on this idea of natural cycles and so on. The Sheeda are associated witht he end of summer, which is of course not a deplorable evil but simply another stage in the natural cycle of the seasons. But Morgane la Faye has interrupted the cycle by attempting literal immortality.

If there's anything to all this, I guess we should expect the series to conclude with the death of Morgana la Faye (who it seems should have died a natural death long, long ago; remember how cold she felt in Shining Knight #3?) and the ascension of the Princess, Misty in her place.
(damn, wish I was as intelligent as a lot of these Comic book resources people).

There was talk that Misty might have been a part of Zatannas soul taken shape, that talk has now cease but Misty may still represent Zatanna on a symbolic level. Zatnnas view towards herself. See the scene in the car in issue 3 before they run into Ali Ka-Zoom.

Sheeda=faeries? Works with the elements of magic seen thus far in the series.

This issue takes place before Shining Knight #4.


Klarion the Witch Boy #3
Art by Frazer Irving
Characters: Klarion, Teekl, Mister Melmoth, Mister Silencio, Goldenboy, Billy Beezeer, Murderella-Rella, Mouse, Nob’dy, rest of the kid gang Deviants
Summary: The Deviant Ones has Klarion joining a kid gang that works for Mister Melmoth. They rob a giant drill that burrows underground. They deliver it to mister Melmoth and soon Klarion understands that Melmoth and his associates are trying to get to Limbo town. Plus at a certain age he sends his kid soldiers to a “red place” to work as labor. At the end of the issue Klarion decides to return to Limbo town.

Things of Note
The taxies in Guardian are called Pumpkin taxies and the one Klarion is in is called Pumpkins, which means the two titles are existing at the same time in the same city, Cinderella City(aka NYC).

Do the Deviant ones represent anything? Well, one CBR poster had this to say about some of the characters: The Deviant Ones seem to channel a few different types of characters. Nobdy seems to channel Jack Kirby with the King helmet, but also a Gail Simone character that she created in Agent X called Mary Zero. Mary Zero for those who don't know has very similar powers to Nobdy, except that she is a girl and only Deadpool seems to know she exists, as with Nobdy the Deviant children know he is with them. Murderella-rella channels Cinderella's name.

Billy Beezer seems to have a name similar to another Gail Simone Marvel creation in a character known as Gus Beezer. Gus was a kid who dreamed hanging out with superheroes while having to avoid his family. Unless there is some literary or TV character with the name Beezer, I doubt he could have gotten anywhere else.

I've also heard on a review site that Mouse resembles Diana Rigg as Emma Peel from her early episodes of the Avengers, but I wouldn't know if that's true or not.

I think Boy Blue from Seven Soldiers #0 also fits the fairy tale theme.

I also was wondering though does anyone think its possible that Boy Blue might have been one of the Deviant Ones? There are no clues to support this, but the mention of the GoldenBoy, and Team Red felt there was some sort of connection as the original Boy Blue had a sidekick called Red Riding Hood.
And as I and Wesley Dodds have said there are some allusions to Pinocchio in the minis as well.
(Pinocchio? Well, I’ve heard it mentioned a few times but having some trouble trying to fit it myself. But I ain’t going to argue)

Red place=Mars? Why not? They came through the Erdel gate and any self-respecting DC head knows Erdel is the last name of the good doctor who brought Martian Manhunter from Mars.

Hey, is that a reference to Runaways in the final panel on page 1?

Part 4 Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1228701#post1228701)

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann

Billy Beezer seems to have a name similar to another Gail Simone Marvel creation in a character known as Gus Beezer. Gus was a kid who dreamed hanging out with superheroes while having to avoid his family. Unless there is some literary or TV character with the name Beezer, I doubt he could have gotten anywhere else.


There was a kids' comic up til the late 80s in the UK called Beezer...

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by AndrewHickey
There was a kids' comic up til the late 80s in the UK called Beezer...

thanks. didn't know that.

[rodolfo leon]

look what i found! :)

http://poesia21.free.fr//images/articles/200503261348SEVEN%20SOLDIERS%202.gif

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann Red place=Mars? Why not? They came through the Erdel gate and any self-respecting DC head knows Erdel is the last name of the good doctor who brought Martian Manhunter from Mars.

Banana_Oil had to remind me of that.

*** hangs head in shame from scorn from other dork. ;) ***

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Banana_Oil had to remind me of that.

*** hangs head in shame from scorn from other dork. ;) ***

luckily i had notes. i wouldn't have gotten it if someone else didn't point it out first.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Power of 7

These are in the Book of Revelations (chapter and verse are in parenthesis):
Seven churches (1:4).
Seven golden candlesticks (1:12).
Seven stars (1:16).
Seven lamps of fire burning before the throne [of God], which are the seven Spirits of God (4:5).
Seven seals (5:1)
[Saw a] lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes (5:6).
Seven angels (8:2).
Seven trumpets (8:6).
[An angel spoke with] a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices (10:3).
[As a result of] the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand (11:13).
[Saw] a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads (12:3).
[Saw a] beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (13:1).
The seven last plagues (15:1)
Seven golden vials full of the wrath of God (15:7).

(Thank you David Bird)

Methinks I have underestimated David Bird's dopeness....

Respekk!!!

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
luckily i had notes. i wouldn't have gotten it if someone else didn't point it out first.

Straight up, I had to read Guardian #4 three times before I finally caught the Cyrus Gold - gold place connection.

Re-readability is a scarce commodity in the comic industry sometimes. I think comics today are written as storyboards for movies/tv series. I mean, how awesome would a Guardian movie be?

[Groovie Mann]

bump

[BillReed]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Re-readability is a scarce commodity in the comic industry sometimes. I think comics today are written as storyboards for movies/tv series. I mean, how awesome would a Guardian movie be?

Probably not at all.

It's a comic, dammit, and a comic it shall always be!

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by BillReed
Probably not at all.

It's a comic, dammit, and a comic it shall always be!

Dude, the kid that gave him a motorscooter loaner in #1 opened a door for truly funny kid sidekicks. Sassy neighborhood kids helping a local hero makes for PG-13 GOLD!!!

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by BillReed
Probably not at all.

It's a comic, dammit, and a comic it shall always be!

Preach on!

[4DGlasses]

OK, which would you rather have?

Guardian movie or a crappy remake of an old movie/tv show starring Jessica Simpson/Tara Reid/Tart o' the Week?

My vote will always be for a comic adaptation.

But then again, you could question my credibility. I liked Daredevil (Director's Cut).

[AndrewHickey]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
OK, which would you rather have?

Guardian movie or a crappy remake of an old movie/tv show starring Jessica Simpson/Tara Reid/Tart o' the Week?

My vote will always be for a comic adaptation.

But then again, you could question my credibility. I liked Daredevil (Director's Cut).

Personally I'd rather a film with an original idea that wasn't copying anything from any other medium. I wouldn't go to see either film...

[4DGlasses]

I don't think we're going to get away from a glut of crappy remakes and comic adaptations unless something as drastic as Hollywood falling into the ocean occurs.

And after Batman Begins, the bar's been raised.

PS to Morrison fans - New Line picked up WE3!!!

[shifty]

Is Scott Free retired? He was in Identity Crisis. WTF? I don't have a problem with Shilo being Mister Miracle, just tell me where Scott went.

[BillReed]

Originally posted by shifty
Is Scott Free retired? He was in Identity Crisis. WTF? I don't have a problem with Shilo being Mister Miracle, just tell me where Scott went.

He's hanging out in a nice Metropolis neighborhood with his wife.

[rodolfo leon]

i'd thought i'd just *BUMP* this thread, 'cause i'm a Morrison whore, and i finally got my copy of Mister Miracle. :cool:

it rocked, yes it did indeed. i just wonder how they're gonna tie this baby up with everything else. Sheeda + Darkseid! looks like trouble is a-brewing! :eek:

[Groovie Mann]

sorry about not updating yet, but been tired and bust. maybe thsi week i'll do sk #4, guardian #4 and miracle #1

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
sorry about not updating yet, but been tired and bust. maybe thsi week i'll do sk #4, guardian #4 and miracle #1

Not a problem. They're a lot of work and real life does have a habit of getting in the way.

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
sorry about not updating yet, but been tired and bust. maybe thsi week i'll do sk #4, guardian #4 and miracle #1

No worries, dude. Keep up the fantastic job!

[dollman]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
Seven Soldiers of Victory


The team had members go in an out. Green arrow and Speedy even served time on the team. The original team was betrayed by Spider and then engaged in a battle with Nebula Man. A battle where the unofficial member Wing sacrificed himself to save the day.

Here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1184867#post1184867)

Are you getting your post & pre-Crisis versions of the Soldiers confused? No way Green Arrow and Speedy are part of the post-Crisis SSV. There is no golden age Green Arrow or Speedy in the current DCU, and their careers started roughly after Batman and Robin's began.

[shifty]

Originally posted by dollman
Are you getting your post & pre-Crisis versions of the Soldiers confused? No way Green Arrow and Speedy are part of the post-Crisis SSV. There is no golden age Green Arrow or Speedy in the current DCU, and their careers started roughly after Batman and Robin's began.

He's right. Golden age Green Arrow was retconned to be the Spider.

[4DGlasses]

Zatanna #4 has been moved to a Nov. 2 release, same day as the potential sleeper hit Bulleteer!

Anyone know the new original line-up of 7SOV?

[David Bird]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
Anyone know the new original line-up of 7SOV?

By new do you mean the original line up according to this story? It seems to be the original from the 40s. If you look at page 22 of Seven Soldiers 0, there is a picture of the original group and it seems to mesh with the original 7S. This is what DCUguide says about them:

A group of heroes also known as Law's Legionnaires who operated in the 1940s. Their membership comprised Crimson Avenger I, Shining Knight, Star-Spangled Kid I, Stripesy, Stuff, the Chinatown Kid, Vigilante I and Spider I, with Wing serving as an honorary eighth soldier. The group was betrayed by the Spider, a villain in disguise, and in a battle with the Nebula Man, Wing was killed and the others thrown to various time periods, from which they were rescued by the Justice Society of America and the Justice League of America. The group disbanded after their return to the twentieth century.

The entry can be found here. (http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=sevensoldiersofvictory) You can click on their names there for further info.

[furioso2012]

When is Klarion 4 out?

Bummed that Zatanna is delayed!

[4DGlasses]

Originally posted by furioso2012
When is Klarion 4 out?


10-19-05

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by 4DGlasses
10-19-05

i'm sure its delayed too. DC will probably ship weekly after zatanna is released. zatanna #4 on 11/2, klarion on 11/9, bulleteer on 11/16, frankenstein on 11/23.

i assume thsi because last time zatanna was released late they delayed klarion as well and put it out the next week.

[Groovie Mann]

4D, here's something for the site.

About the "Red am I in Battle. Red the ravens that follow at my heels" thing. At the beginning of Shining Knight #1 Morrison mentions the Morrigan prophesying the fall of Avalon. The Morrigan was a triple goddess of womanhood, war and destruction -- aka the Raven goddess. I think those words probably had religious significance to Justin. Morrigan is her patron goddess, maybe?

from the CBR forums. reword it and whatnot.

[Groovie Mann]

little something else i found.

Vigilante first fought the 'Monster of Miracle Mesa', which was in fact a Sheeda spider mare, in the 19th century. When he shows the Whip a newspaper from that time, he says "That's Johnny Frankenstein riding with me."

We know that a character called Frankenstein will star in the last 7soldiers mini. We also know that he uses dead body parts grafted onto his own body. my theory is that the character of the Frankenstein mini will be the same Johnny Frankenstein that rode with Vigilante in 1875. How is he still alive in the 21st century? Well, we already know that Frankenstein has the power to graft dead body parts to himself, which would explain his longevity (as the Whip says in #0; "Old superheroes never die, huh?"). And if he is still around it makes sense that Vigilante sought his help again, when the spider-monster that they both battled re-appeared. Vigilante says little about the mysterious seventh soldier, excpt that they got "cold feet". This might be a deliberate pun - Frankenstein literally has "cold feet", as his feet are dead body parts. Lastly, Grant has said the Frankenstein mini will be a "brutal revenge comic". Johnny Frankenstein seeking revenge against the Sheeda for the death of his old friend Vigilante?

Of course, Johnny Frankenstein might just be some pre-established DC western character, in which case my theory is shot to shreds

[Groovie Mann]

changes to babrelith. this is the proper directions. (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers)

[David Bird]

Originally posted by Groovie Mann
i'm sure its delayed too. DC will probably ship weekly after zatanna is released. zatanna #4 on 11/2, klarion on 11/9, bulleteer on 11/16, frankenstein on 11/23.

i assume thsi because last time zatanna was released late they delayed klarion as well and put it out the next week.

Which supports the idea that the release dates are the reading order, even if they're not a necessary one.

By the way, when was this thread moved from Talk@?

[Groovie Mann]

Originally posted by David Bird
Which supports the idea that the release dates are the reading order, even if they're not a necessary one.

By the way, when was this thread moved from Talk@?

last night. i PMed matt and had it changed.

[Groovie Mann]

working on it. finished the shining knight segment which, for some odd reason, was complicated for me. lots of looking for stuff i didn't need to look for.

4D, i emailed you some nootations i found(which will be incorprated with a couple things i need to do now) and you might want to incorporate it into the notes i sent. plus a few corrections.

and theres that thing about the cjb.net webhosting i already hooked up for the site.

[Groovie Mann]

Shining Knight #4
Art by Simone Bianchi & Dave Stewart
Characters: Sir Justin, I, Spyder, Sheeda Queen/Gloriana Tenebrea, Sir Galahad, Don Vincenzo, Vanguard, Neh-Buh-Loh, Strato, Silencio
Summary: The Last Stand of Don Vincenzo is the final chapter in the Shining Knight portion of Seven Soldiers. Sir Justin finds himself in the clutches of the Sheeda Queen Gloriana Tenebrea facing off against his one time friend Galahad whose been mutated by the Sheeda. All the while Don Vincenzo baths in the cauldron of yourth which the Sheeda seek. Vincenzo and his men battle the Sheeda but are not able to stop them. In the clutches of Galahad and Gloriana we learn that sir Justin is actually a girl. Gloriana leaves the battle with her guards as word comes of her husband, Dark Melmoth, is alive. In their absence Justin uses two swords to slay Galahad. The mini series ends with a glimpse back at when Galahad knighted Justin unaware she was a girl.

Things of Note
Mister Melmoth from Klarion the Witchboy is the husband of the Sheeda Queen.

Gloriana a reference to the Fairy Queen of Edmund Spenser? Apperently in the poem Gloriaina refers to Queen Elizabeth. More on the poem at www.sparksnotes.com/poetry/fqueen/

Don Vincenzo mentions Silencio’s boy. Silencio appeared in Klarion #3.

I, Spyder could have been working as a traitor amongst the heroes in Seven Soldiers Special #0 much like how his grandfather(?) Spider betrayed the original team in a much earlier story.

Sheeda speak? Glad you asked.

Page 8: I bring news of your husband mistress.
Page 11 Part 1: In Heaven there is no beer.
Page 11 Part 2: Which is why we drink it here. http://www.brave.com/bo/lyrics/inheaven.htm
Page 13: Always after me lucky charms.

Strato is, from my understanding, saying the following on page 15 is: Loyal True Righteous Courage.

The following stolen from LITG at LITG (http://www.comicbookresources.com), under archives for September, from an annotations list.
"This is ____ing mythology calling." - Don Vincenzo prefers the wonder of myth to reality - a common theme among the Newsboy Army - Gimmix clings to faded youth, Baby Brain to the illusion of being a normal adult, and Ali-Ka-Zoom to still being alive...

Neh-Buh-Loh crushes the fantasy and mythology of Don Vicenzo, describing it as "just blood and mud and heat leaving meat." - another blood reference, and also one to the mention in Guardian of clay being the link between organic and inorganic matter. This is also perhaps how a celestial and possibly divine being like Neh-Buh-Loh might regard humanity, in the most simple terms.

Sir Justin is both a 'falsebeard' and a 'no-beard'.

This issue takes place before the events in Zatanna #3.


Manhattan Guardian #4
Art by Cameron Stewart & Moose Baumann
Characters: Jake Jordon/Guardian, Ed Stargard/Baby Brains, Captain 7, Millions, Chop Suzi, Merlin of the Ghetto/Ali Ka-Zoom, Kid Scarface/Don Vincenzo, Lil’ Hollywood, Lena, Mo Colley, Terrible Time Tailor, Sheeda Queen/Gloriana Tenebrea,
Summary: Sex Secrets of the Newsboy Army is the final installment of Guardian and finds Jake Jordon/Guardian hearing the first hand account of how the original Newsboy Army fell apart. Ed stargard was babt Brains, one of the seven Newsboy Army alongside Capt. 7, Kid Scarface, Lil’ Hollywood, Chop Suzi, Merlin of the Ghetto and the dog Millions. One adventure leads them to discovering a mysterious faerie that can brainwash people. The group take a trip to Slaughter Swamp where they encounter the Terrible Time Tailor and the Sheeda Queen. The groups final adventure ends on a tragic note. At the end Guardian prepares for his part in the fight against the Sheeda.

Things of Note
This is the first time the Sheeda are mentioned in the series.

Who is Lil’ Hollywood? She is the only living member of the Newsboy Army alive. Many have speculated Gimmix. Turns out that Gimmix isn’t actually the DC character Merry the Girl of a 1000 Gimmics. Merry the Girl of 1000 Gimmicks is Merry Pemberton King. Gimmix is Jacqueline Pemberton. Now they could be the same person seeing as Merrys last name was Pemberton before marrying Henry King(Brain Wave). Possibly changing her first name and dropping the King after her disappearance. Merry was also the adoptive sister to the Star-Spangled Kid giving Merry a direct line to the original group. Merry didn’t have any sisters nor a daughter. It’s also been speculated that the 75 year old unnamed alcoholic from Zatanna #1 might be Lil’Hollywood.

Mo’ Colley says in Sheeda tongue: Mmm… death.

Seems the Sheeda might be hunting teams of seven. In the IC minis there’s mostly teams of six. Secret Six not counting Mokingbird, Shadowpact not including Black Alice(especially seeing as she doesn’t want a part of the battle), and in Rann/Thanagar War which team fluctutated rapidly with deaths and betrayals but was at it’s least five members and never seven for a lengthy period of time.

The time tailor bares some resemblance to Grant Morrison. Who is the Time Tailor? A traitor from the Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp? Why do they flee the Sheeda? Does this flashback tale take place before or after the events in Seven Soldiers Special #0?

Speculation as to if Morrison was stating, in certain scenes, how creators now take innocent characters and taint them. Possible swipe at Identity Crisis which Morrison admittedly didn’t like? The knowledge that Chop Suzi was pregnant at the time of her death could support that theory.

Captain 7 might have sexually assaulted, or something worse to, Chop Suzi as alluded to on page 17. However she dies before we hear her side of the story. The kids may have been put against one another by the Time Tailor.

Lets go to the CBR forums: The Time Tailor's treatment of the 7 kids was echoed in advance by Melmoth's treament of his 7 kids ("the Deviant Ones"), representative of so many others in his case of course, in the last Klarion. The Time Tailor forces them to try on "special clothes, suits you'll wear when your older" just as Melmoth tries to represent his enslavement of his kids as part of the natural process of becoming an adult (which, incidentally, brings us back once again to the theme of false distortions of the normal cycle of maturation). The Time Tailor's idea of facing the real world is shown in the series of panels in which we see the innocents subjected to various depressing or unsavory fates, just as Melmoth preaches to Billy that being a man means a life of hard labor in the gold mines (like the "Gold place" where the 7 kids meet the Time Tailor) .

Love the way that Jake broke free from the pattern at the end and started writing his own script. Everything was set up to follow a certain course - Ed was to sacrifice himself, one more victim of the Time Tailor's false representation of reality, and Jake was to somehow muddle on. But Jake rejects this fatalism, maybe because he isn't a kid, he's an adult who's had the opportunity to reach maturity via a relatively undistorted path, and isn't as susceptible to the kind of mental and spiritual domination the innocent 7 kids were subjected to (and through the fictional lense maybe we can see how this kind of treatment of innocent minds is truly one of the worst crimes its possible to commit; wonder if any advertising or MacDonald's execs read this issue).

By rejecting Ed's scenario - which really isn't Ed's but the Time Tailor's, from this POV - he rejects the false image of reality that's been imposed on Ed, and begins an attempt to become a truly free agent. He decides Ed can still contribute, more that he's vital tot he task ahead, whatver it might turn out to be in detail (notice that "free agent" in this case doesn't imply adolescent illusions of complete self-sufficiency).

More annotations from LITG (http://www.comicbookresources.com) I have discovered make me question a certain scene in Shining Knight #2 and Zatanna #2.
"The end of the Queen of Terror's reign with a spear that never was thrown" - riff on Longinus' Spear? The Dolorous Blow to the Fisher King in the Morte D'Arthur? Again, just like Spyder, Gloriana knows the circumstances of her doom - are the 'villains' fated to lose? Have their 'suits' already been decided, just like those of the 'heroes'?

The Tailor says to the Newsboy Army, 'give me that silly outsize TOP HAT you wear, Ali. I'LL look good in that.' ...and so perhaps it is him, not Ali, that appears in SK#2 on the bench next to Justin, or in Cass' magic shop? Or perhaps A-K-Z becomes his fiction suit?


Mister Miracle #1
Art by Pasqual Ferry &Dave McCaig
Characters: Shilo Norman/Mr. Miracle, Metron, Gaylord Malmaison, Psychiatrist, Granny Goodness and the Furies(Mad Harriet, Bernadeth, Wunda, Lashina), Death-The Black Racer, Cameos by High-Father, Darkseid, and Orion
Summary: The fifth mini to start, mister Miracle opens with New Godz as Shilo Norman aka Mr. Miracle relates a story to his psychiatrist. About his attempt to escape a black hole. It is during his stunt he encounters Metron the observer. Through Metron Norman gets a glimpse of a war between gods where “the wrong side won.” The experience left him questioning his life. His manager leads him somewhere for some relaxation only to meet granny Goodness and her girls. Norman freaks out and runs away. Now, after leaving his doctor finds himself on the run from forces he doesn’t understand.

Things of Note
The cover image of Mister Miracle descending as if a Christ like figure may hint at his mortality in the final Seven soldiers issue.

No sheeda? Nope, no sheeda.

A motherbox, along with Boom Tubes, were a regular part of Kirby's New Gods stories -- essentially, they're small, portable supercomputers with a few dimension-twisting add-ons.

This Mr. Miracles motherbox is spelled with two extra Xs. Might be a reference to one half of the Outcast grammy winnung album Speakerboxxx/The Love Below by Outcast.

The motherbox takes the role of the barbelith.
Barbelith is an egregore founded on the principles of agape, education and transformation, capable of releasing ideas and assisting in initiation, individuation and self-development. It acts as a placenta, providing the developing human race with the nourishment necessary in order to grow into its full potential. This global working is accomplished by its capacity to engage with an unlimited number of people simultaneously.

Barbelith was originally part of The Invisibles, a comic series by Grant Morrison. This work was has been called a narrative hypersigil: in other words, a magical working intended to bring about changes in its author and readership. A large body of anecdotal evidence exists to suggest that the intentions of the working were successful, although these effects are not easily quantifiable (they rely on the subjective experience of those involved). As the methodology of the working involved the way in which our personal realities and world models depend on fiction for their existence and maintenance, it's reasonable to suggest that the egregore has received sufficient empowerment to be used in workings which are independent from (albeit ideologically linked to) the original text. Furthermore, there are already accounts of Barbelith interacting with a number of individuals connected to this site.
Here: http://members.cruzio.com/~chris23/barbelith.html

Metron, Darkseid, High-Father and many others are of course from Jack Kirbys New God series.

The psychiatrist could be the Jack Kirby character Dr. Bedlam who appeared in the original Mr. Miracle series starting with issue #8. Bedlam is also derived from a psychiatric hospital Saint Mary of Bethleham.

From www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers
So who is the Black Racer? Previously, he was Sgt. Willie Walker, (Here (http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/black-racer.html)) a Vietnam vet whose injuries left him mute and paralyzed, and who was subsequently possessed by a force of the New Gods... the force of Death. So, for the most part, Walker was confined to a hospital bed, but as soon as one of the New Gods died in their war against Apokolips, Walker was suddenly able to zip around at the speed of light. Unfortunately, he did so on, umm, a pair of hyperspace skis. In some ways, this character may have been Kirby's way of trying to create a new Silver Surfer for DC, but heroes on skis just don't seem quite as cool as heroes on surfboards. Anyway, he's appeared in Flash stories on and off since then.

Next segment (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1397820#post1397820)

[David Bird]

So, Shining Knight 4 takes place before Zatanna 3 and Zatanna 3 takes place before Shining Knight 4. Hmmm...

I really hope Morrison keeps Black Racer off his skis. Kirby might have been the King, but, man, how lame can you get? I have always thought there should be an award, like the Razzies, to highlight when people or companies try to copy a good thing by repeating its most superficial aspects. People liked the Silver Surfer, and surfers skim over water, so they'll like the Black Racer, because he has skis, and skiers skim over snow. Which is, umm, frozen water.

I copied this, some time ago, actually from From Tales to Astonish: Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, and the American Comic Book Revolution by Ronin Ro, Bloomsbury, New York 2004, pages 155-156:



Page 155

DC started publishing the titles in the order Jack submitted them, and his life became an endless loop of work. Once the latest Mister Miracle was done, he'd start the next New Gods, then get to The Forever People. If someone asked what he'd done in a story completed a few hours ago, he'd have to consult photocopies for an answer. Only when DC called to say they needed a cover immediately did he stop work. And once he finished whatever DC needed, he got right back to it. Since he didn't use an outline, he placed completed pages that didn't fit into a current story into a pile near his desk, only to reach for them later and stick them into other comics.

At one point, he showed Roz a drawing of his new hero, the Black Racer, a black guy who wore a red-and-blue medieval-style suit of armor and skis. "It's crazy," she said. "It'll never go over. What kind of crazy name is that?"

"Don't worry," he answered, "it'll catch on."

The Racer was Jack's version of the G