TRINITY [Archive] - NEWSARAMA

MattBrady

04-04-2003, 04:29 PM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/TrinityCv12_t.jpg" width="195" height="290" align="right" alt="Trinity #1">DC Comics has provided Newsarama with a few preview pages from Matt Wagner’s Trinity which debuts in June. As reported previously, the prestige format miniseries chronicles the first meeting of Batman and Superman with Wonder Woman, and is set in the early years of their respective careers.

The following is a repost of the article we ran in last November, during the DC RRP meeting.

Trinity treads on some older, but surprisingly unsown ground – Wonder Woman’s first meetings with both Batman and Superman, set shortly after she left Themscrya and came to man’s world. Newsarama caught up with Wagner to get an update on the project, which was featured at this weekend’s DC Comics RRP meeting.

First, while Wagner said that the core, motivating action of the miniseries will be the meetings between the characters, labeling it as just a meet and greet between the three major players of the DCU just scratches the surface.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/TRINITY1_06.jpg"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/TRINITY1_06_t.jpg" width="195" height="296" align="left" alt="Trinity #1, page 6" border="0"></a> “Obviously from the title, what I'm really examining/presenting is what makes these three characters the major icons in the DCU,” Wagner said. “What it is that links them together so strongly because, really, this is the holy triumvirate of super-hero archetypes; the god of the light, the god of darkness and the goddess.”

Despite his comment, Wagner’s not putting such an “iconic” spin on the story as to loose its relevance to long-time DC readers. “This is set in continuity,” Wagner said. “It’s not Diana's first excursion to man's world, but it is early on and she's not used to interacting with men as of yet. She keeps trying to figure them out and then she's presented with these two extreme examples of the male of the species. Needless to say, that doesn't necessarily make it any easier for her.

”Part of my approach herein is that these characters will get to know each other as their costumed selves first,” Wagner continued. “Bruce and Clark already know each other's secret identities but there's very little of that depicted. So, Diana's the odd person out in regards to that equation. Still, I thought there needed to be a definite reason for their meetings to occur. I didn't want to just have some convoluted plot threat wherein Wonder Woman shows up, joins either of the other two in a battle and then introduces herself afterwards. I'm very story driven and so I needed a reason to bring all three of them together. And, with characters this big, it needed to be mythic as well...something with an overriding metaphor of their uniqueness. I needed a symbolic metaphor to spark their triple union. The title says it all.”

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/TRINITY1_10_11.jpg"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/TRINITY1_10_11_t.jpg" width="384" height="296" align="right" alt="Trinity #1, page 10-11" border="0"></a>Given the main event, that is the first meetings, of the miniseries, Wagner confirmed that Diana’s meetings with Superman and Batman occur early on in the careers of the two male heroes, establishing that essentially, the three grew into “heroing” together over the years.

”At the time of Trinity, Superman's been operating in public just a bit longer than Batman, but you've got to remember that Clark has been slowly discovering his powers and responsibilities in an escalating fashion over the course of his young adult life,” Wagner said. ”Bruce has been pursuing his goals in a much more driven and methodical manner for quite a bit longer. Like I said earlier, Diana's new to the scene and hasn't really been covered much, media-wise, as of yet. Superman's the big celebrity at this point. And, of course, Batman's existence is hardly known of at all by the general public.”

Wagner said that of the various interpretations of Diana that have come up over the years, that is, a straight superheroine to pacifistic ambassador of a foreign culture to a warrior priestess, his view of Wonder Woman takes a little from all three. That view, he admitted, has shifted and twisted over the course of working on the miniseries.

“Of the three, Diana’s the one that I came to the table with the least opinion of,” Wagner said. “Obviously, I've already done a great deal of work on Batman and I've always had what I think is a good internal take on Superman. But, really though, I 'd have to say the entire process has helped me to understand all three characters better.”

A realization that Wagner came to concerning the three was that, while the story is about a trinity of heroes, there are multiple bonds between any given two members of the group – something that affects the overall dynamic and group relationship.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/TRINITY2cvr.jpg"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/TRINITY2cvr_t.jpg" width="195" height="296" align="left" alt="Trinity #2" border="0"></a> “When I really started to look at how the characters interacted and interwove, I realized that there were so many instances and attributes that linked two of them and excluded the remaining one,” Wagner said. “It’s like this: two are men and one is not, two are superhuman and one is not, two are orphans and one is not, two are earthlings and one is not, two are aristocrats and one is not, two are immigrants and one is not, etc, etc, etc... I found that this list can just go on and on.”

Finally, Wagner said that while his editor on the project, Bob Schreck, has already called Trinity a “crowd-pleaser,” he’s not ready to give it that badge until its release. Wagner said it was a thrill, as both a creator and long-time fan of the characters, to find this small patch of fertile soil in their collective histories, and plant a story which was new but would give readers a strong sense of familiarity.

“I'm thoroughly surprised and delighted that this story hasn't already been told in DC's continuity,” Wagner said. “I was halfway thru the first issue before I even quite realized was that I was trying to achieve was an overwhelming sense of familiarity. This should almost read like a bit of history that got lost. It should feel almost like this is a story you've already read, even though that's far from the case. So, it’s very iconic in its approach to all three characters and how they do their respective things. I know this is a book I would love to read and I think many other readers will feel that way as well.”

KM

04-04-2003, 04:50 PM

Looking at the preview art all I can say is "Wow!" This project looks like it's going to be something special.

Jeremy Holstein

04-04-2003, 05:13 PM

Okay, I'm still not sure of Wagner's latest version of Batman (every time he draws Bats he looks a bit different) and I haven't seen enough of his Wonder Woman yet to judge, but that is one great looking Superman.

As if this wasn't at the front of my pull list already....

Vivat Grendel!

-J

I-Ching

04-04-2003, 05:17 PM

Looks to be a promising story. LOVE the concept. It's great to see Wonder Woman being incorporated since she surely deserves the spotlight she's too often denied.

This story has been a long time coming, I hope it's worth the wait.

Kurt Avery

04-04-2003, 05:26 PM

I've been looking forward to this since it was announced. Matt Wagner's a great creator, and its nice to see him write and draw ANYTHING. Him playing with iconic characters like these is just icing on the cake. His versions of the characters are fantastic.

Kurt Avery

Arnout

04-04-2003, 05:27 PM

I was on the fence about this series since word first got out.
Love Batman, like Superman, don't really know Wonder Woman, adore Wagner.
Tilting in favour of buying it, you'd say, but I dunno. There's already so much about any of these three (single or combined) so one more would just be forgettable.

This pitch though... damn if it isn't selling me straight out! The reason for their encother has got my curiosity piqued, and I do very fondly remember both Faces and Batman/Grendel, so you can count me in (though I may wait for a colletion, anyway)
And to ask that question on everyone's lips: when's Mage III due?^________^

Bit off topic, but regardless: there was a World's Finest maxi-series out couple years back by Karl Kesel and Taylor (I forget his first name). Was that ever collected? I never noticed it on any Star System lists... Why wasn't it?
And another thing: nobody ever uses the term maxi-series anymore, it's all minies nowadays. C'mon people: mini = up to 5 issues, maxi = 6 or more. Get with the semantics here :D

jawaplumber

04-04-2003, 05:30 PM

I'm really not too psyched about this project, just because the DC characters aren't intriguing me and holding my attention these days as much as they have in times past. However, I fully intend on picking this baby up, mostly for Matt Wagner. It's funny, but as popular as Wagner is for his Grendel and Mage work, being a big fan of himself myself, I've only ever followed his DC contributions. SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE was my favorite monthly comic for SO long. I wish DC could get Matt to write another monthly series. But stuff like TRINITY will do just fine, in the meanwhile :)

jawaplumber

04-04-2003, 05:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arnout:
Bit off topic, but regardless: there was a World's Finest maxi-series out couple years back by Karl Kesel and Taylor (I forget his first name). Was that ever collected? I never noticed it on any Star System lists... Why wasn't it?
And another thing: nobody ever uses the term maxi-series anymore, it's all minies nowadays. C'mon people: mini = up to 5 issues, maxi = 6 or more. Get with the semantics here :D <hr /></blockquote>Ah yes, WORLD'S FINEST by Karl Kesel and Dave Taylor! I don't think it was ever collected into a trade. It's most likely because Dave Taylor was behind on the art chores and instead of just waiting for him, DC brought in some fill-in artists to do rush jobs on some of the issues and the series REALLY suffered for it. It's a shame because there were some great chapters throughout. I think it was issue no. 7 that had Batman visit Superman in Smallville. It was absolutely phenomenal. It's too bad WORLD'S FINEST eventually went to hell in a handbasket, it was shaping up to be one of Kesel's finest (no pun intended) projects. In retrospect, based on the current state of comics, it seems silly of DC to not have waited for Taylor to catch up. If fans are willing to wait as long as they do for one issue of THE ULTIMATES, which is supposed to be an ongoing monthly series set in the present day of it's continuity, why wouldn't they wait just as long between installments of a miniseries set in the past? Dave Taylor was an excellent talent, I wonder what he's up to now.

Jamie S. Rich

04-04-2003, 06:10 PM

Bow before Matt Wagner.

krisstacks

04-04-2003, 07:31 PM

To paraphrase the continental-Matt Wagner is the "shiznit"

...To be honest, I'd rather see him working on something creator owned but,I still pull out those issues of legends of the dark knight he did years ago so,yeah I'll be checking this out for sure.

rockieman

04-04-2003, 07:47 PM

Whoa. That's great art. Makes me wish he would draw some more Grendel as well.

Eschel

04-04-2003, 07:57 PM

Oh, man!

I was ready to write this one off because of the outrageous price (I'm really getting sick of these gouge-the-consumer mini-series!), but I'm finding it very difficult to pass up on such gorgeous Wagner work.

I wish he'd commit to do more than monthly covers!

Eschel

COREMARK

04-04-2003, 10:05 PM

Wow, the artwork looks fantastic. I wasn't sure if I was going to pick this up or not, but after seeing the preview pages I will be buying this.

Hellboy15

04-04-2003, 10:17 PM

I thought Maxi was over six and Mini was up to six.

Anyway, this looks great, everytime I see Wagners art Im reminded how great it is, because I often think of him as a writer, but this looks like some of his best.

ssgohan116

04-04-2003, 11:51 PM

Words cannot describe how excited I am about this. I got real excited when I first heard of this, but after seeing some art and hearing more about it, I just can't wait. I will definitely be handing over the big bucks for this thing.

flutegirlfanrocks

04-05-2003, 01:00 AM

The art looks great even by Matts standards I'll definetly be getting this, as for Maxi's Paradice X is still going.

John Osen

04-05-2003, 01:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
It's funny, but as popular as Wagner is for his Grendel and Mage work, being a big fan of himself myself, I've only ever followed his DC contributions. SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE was my favorite monthly comic for SO long. I wish DC could get Matt to write another monthly series. :) <hr /></blockquote>I don't know what you mean. :confused: Wagner didn't write SMT, Steven T. Seagle did. Seagle also writes an obscure small press book called Superman. :rolleyes: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :p

Jazzthief

04-05-2003, 01:43 AM

I've been following Matt's work since his Comico days to his classic interpretation of DC Universe. And this new project look's absolutely delicious! Hopefully it won't blow a huge hole in my pocket. Anyone know what the cover price on this one shot or mini-series?

GooN

04-05-2003, 02:02 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Given the main event, that is the first meetings, of the miniseries, Wagner confirmed that Diana’s meetings with Superman and Batman occur early on in the careers of the two male heroes, establishing that essentially, the three grew into “heroing” together over the years.<hr /></blockquote>I know this is nit picking, but in DC Continuity Wonder Woman came to "man's world" when Supes and Bats had been "heroing" for awhile. Is this a "tweaking" of her origin, or is it just simply a "to hell with continuity" story?

NicholasWyche

04-05-2003, 02:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Osen:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
It's funny, but as popular as Wagner is for his Grendel and Mage work, being a big fan of himself myself, I've only ever followed his DC contributions. SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE was my favorite monthly comic for SO long. I wish DC could get Matt to write another monthly series. :) <hr /></blockquote>I don't know what you mean. :confused: Wagner didn't write SMT, Steven T. Seagle did. Seagle also writes an obscure small press book called Superman. :rolleyes: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :p <hr /></blockquote>Matt Wagner was the originator of SMT and was the primary plotter for the first year or two. Seagle was the scripter/co-writer with him until Matt moved on. So, yes, Wagner was the "writer" on SMT. All the stories in the first couple of years were his, and then Seagle took over full writing later.

Cloak & Dagger

04-05-2003, 03:07 AM

That's some REALLY great looking art.

danzo

04-05-2003, 07:06 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hellboy15:
I thought Maxi was over six and Mini was up to six.

Anyway, this looks great, everytime I see Wagners art Im reminded how great it is, because I often think of him as a writer, but this looks like some of his best.<hr /></blockquote>heh, an' i thought maxis and minis were the same thing: finite series, then there's the on-going..... anyhoo....
THIS LOOKS FLIPPIN' AWESOME!!!! i love Wagner and it seems he's hit another plateau in his art- WOWZA!! how much better can he get? is it just me or has the mans' line and tone become seeped in fine-art overtones? (is this over-sized? did i miss that somewhere? :D ) it's like a synthesis of the Modern Movement and comics, i'm so stoked! artsy and hiding in plain sight, or i'm imagining things.... i so want to know Wagner's thoughts behind his art; is this all in my head? lol

danzo

04-05-2003, 07:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GooN:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Given the main event, that is the first meetings, of the miniseries, Wagner confirmed that Diana’s meetings with Superman and Batman occur early on in the careers of the two male heroes, establishing that essentially, the three grew into “heroing” together over the years.<hr /></blockquote>I know this is nit picking, but in DC Continuity Wonder Woman came to "man's world" when Supes and Bats had been "heroing" for awhile. Is this a "tweaking" of her origin, or is it just simply a "to hell with continuity" story?<hr /></blockquote>no, actually it seems to be a "fixing a lapse in judgement, restoring proper continuity" story.... but seriously, it seems to be addressing the flaw in the re-establishment of Wonder Woman where her timeline just doesn't make much sense- if you re-read the (generally awesome) Perez-Era and the period right after, you'll see it suffers from the "Wolfman Syndrome" where things don't quite add up. in this case, it seems that the thinking was (as they were keeping Diana segregated from the D.C.U.) that her stories were a bit behind time-wise relative to the rest of the D.C.U., they simply didn't convey it well....

dogisred

04-05-2003, 08:02 AM

Matt Wagner is one of those creators that I'll buy anything he does. Even so...this looks better than I thought it would. Wagner uses different art styles depending on his subject, and this is the best "superhero" art I've seen from him in a while (just from the sample pages). As mentioned before, I've been reading Wagner's stuff since the Comico days, and have only rarely been disappointed with his work.

His take on the new Dr. Midnite was fantastic (can't remember who did the art), and this new Trinity limited series looks fantastic (notice I didn't say mini or maxi). The series...for the poster that asked, is listed in Previews as $6.95 an issue (buy you get 64 fantastic pages per issue...which is like buying three issues @ 2.50...which would be $7.50, so you get a bit of a bargain :D ).

Want to see Mage III from him, loved to see some more Wagner drawn Grendel in the future.

dogisred

04-05-2003, 09:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
Dave Taylor was an excellent talent, I wonder what he's up to now.<hr /></blockquote>I've wondered the same thing for a while. He kind of disappeared. He was doing a lot of covers and such, then seemed to just vanish. Anyone know where he is or what he's doing?

Arnout

04-05-2003, 02:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hellboy15:
I thought Maxi was over six and Mini was up to six.
<hr /></blockquote>you know, just when I posted it, I felt maybe up to 6 would be more appropriate.
But even Midnight Nation is called a Mini-series now. If it were mini, why's the trade such a whopper?

Arnout

04-05-2003, 02:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
Ah yes, WORLD'S FINEST by Karl Kesel and Dave Taylor! I don't think it was ever collected into a trade. I think it was issue no. 7 that had Batman visit Superman in Smallville. It was absolutely phenomenal. It's too bad WORLD'S FINEST eventually went to hell in a handbasket, it was shaping up to be one of Kesel's finest (no pun intended) projects. [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>that was really informative, thanks! I'll have to look out for the singles now, I guess.

jawaplumber

04-05-2003, 07:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arnout:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hellboy15:
I thought Maxi was over six and Mini was up to six.
<hr /></blockquote>you know, just when I posted it, I felt maybe up to 6 would be more appropriate.
But even Midnight Nation is called a Mini-series now. If it were mini, why's the trade such a whopper?<hr /></blockquote>Honestly, I think the difference between a miniseries and a maxiseries is more a preference of the individual publisher. I've even seen DC contradict itself on what seperates a mini from a maxi. Personally, I hate the term maxiseries because it reminds me of maxi pads. I always hate walking down that aisle of the grocery store. I try to avoid it at all costs. It's just so...yucky... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

jawaplumber

04-05-2003, 07:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arnout:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
Ah yes, WORLD'S FINEST by Karl Kesel and Dave Taylor! I don't think it was ever collected into a trade. I think it was issue no. 7 that had Batman visit Superman in Smallville. It was absolutely phenomenal. It's too bad WORLD'S FINEST eventually went to hell in a handbasket, it was shaping up to be one of Kesel's finest (no pun intended) projects. <hr /></blockquote>that was really informative, thanks! I'll have to look out for the singles now, I guess.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>You're very welcome! I'm not positive that Smallville issue was no. 7, so just keep your eyes peeled for a cover with Superman and Batman out in a corn field with a tractor nearby. If I remember, the cover had orange/brown tones. I would say all the issues that came before it were quite enjoyable, as well. Past issue no. 7, however, WORLD'S FINEST faltered.

D.J. Coffman is your daddy

04-06-2003, 12:26 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jamie S. Rich:
Bow before Matt Wagner.<hr /></blockquote>I ditto that statement. This is going to be awesome

Eric Qel-Droma

04-06-2003, 02:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by danzo:
no, actually it seems to be a "fixing a lapse in judgement, restoring proper continuity" story.... but seriously, it seems to be addressing the flaw in the re-establishment of Wonder Woman where her timeline just doesn't make much sense- if you re-read the (generally awesome) Perez-Era and the period right after, you'll see it suffers from the "Wolfman Syndrome" where things don't quite add up. in this case, it seems that the thinking was (as they were keeping Diana segregated from the D.C.U.) that her stories were a bit behind time-wise relative to the rest of the D.C.U., they simply didn't convey it well....<hr /></blockquote>Actually, the way it was introduced then, both Batman and Superman had been active for about 7-8 years. Wonder Woman's introduction to the superhero crowd happened in Legends, when she informed Guy Gardner that she was "nobody's 'babe'!"

What bugs me about this project is that if it is in continuity, then it invalidates several other elements of DC continuity. For example, Superman might have known Batman's identity for some time (despite the fact that Batman had lined his cowl with lead), but Batman did NOT figure out who Superman was until Superman gave him Ma Kent's Superman scrapbook to analyze. This did not happen until Jason Todd was Robin.

The mistake DC made at the time was that they pushed Batman and Superman continuity forward about 7 years after the post-Crisis reboot, but Wonder Woman's continuity was totally new and documented, making her a late-comer to the scene. Personally, I wish they'd started over completely with Superman and Batman, despite the fact that it would have required cancelling The New Titans for a while until Batman found Dick Grayson and trained him.

While I'm not a total continuity nut, especially with DC, it does bother me that DC won't just admit at this point that this mini-series CHANGES continuity. They have a good excuse (hypertime), and just that acknowledgement would help me rest easier.

I still hate changes to continuity.

Eric

The Blue Spider

04-06-2003, 03:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Eric Qel-Droma:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by danzo:
no, actually it seems to be a "fixing a lapse in judgement, restoring proper continuity" story.... but seriously, it seems to be addressing the flaw in the re-establishment of Wonder Woman where her timeline just doesn't make much sense- if you re-read the (generally awesome) Perez-Era and the period right after, you'll see it suffers from the "Wolfman Syndrome" where things don't quite add up. in this case, it seems that the thinking was (as they were keeping Diana segregated from the D.C.U.) that her stories were a bit behind time-wise relative to the rest of the D.C.U., they simply didn't convey it well....<hr /></blockquote>Actually, the way it was introduced then, both Batman and Superman had been active for about 7-8 years. Wonder Woman's introduction to the superhero crowd happened in Legends, when she informed Guy Gardner that she was "nobody's 'babe'!"

What bugs me about this project is that if it is in continuity, then it invalidates several other elements of DC continuity. For example, Superman might have known Batman's identity for some time (despite the fact that Batman had lined his cowl with lead), but Batman did NOT figure out who Superman was until Superman gave him Ma Kent's Superman scrapbook to analyze. This did not happen until Jason Todd was Robin.

The mistake DC made at the time was that they pushed Batman and Superman continuity forward about 7 years after the post-Crisis reboot, but Wonder Woman's continuity was totally new and documented, making her a late-comer to the scene. Personally, I wish they'd started over completely with Superman and Batman, despite the fact that it would have required cancelling The New Titans for a while until Batman found Dick Grayson and trained him.

While I'm not a total continuity nut, especially with DC, it does bother me that DC won't just admit at this point that this mini-series CHANGES continuity. They have a good excuse (hypertime), and just that acknowledgement would help me rest easier.

I still hate changes to continuity.

Eric<hr /></blockquote>Changes to continuity, whether good or bad and usually retroactive, almost always occur piecemeal. The Crisis was a 12-issue maxi-series and it was a historical landmark to base changes around but there was no grant reboot of anything. The entire shared continuity was changed piece by piece and title by title.

Besides that, we can't say for sure which Robin was which Robin when Batman discovered Superman's ID because the Superman title never told us. The Superman title also never told us when in the Batman continuity the story took place. While we can assume what you assumed, based on publishing dates and parallel character development, I choose not to because I'd rather Superman and Batman's relationship begin and evolve earlier in their careers rather than later.

I also like Wonder Woman's origin taking place earlier in relativity to Superman's. It makes more sense given her position outside of the continuity. It doesn't screw up continuity so much simply becaue Perez was so vague. Those same stories, most of 'em could take place earlier. Or not.

Whatever.

Perez's WW timeline change primarily rocked the New Titans' world and then screwed up the JLA stuff.

TemporalFlux

04-06-2003, 03:41 PM

Just remember...it's only the shifting tides of Hypertime overlapping realities. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

mikem

04-06-2003, 08:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TemporalFlux:
Just remember...it's only the shifting tides of Hypertime overlapping realities. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Perez may have been vague in the timing of WW's origin, but Diana appearing in LEGENDS, not speaking English and seeing Guy Gardner as her "first" man and Black Canary as a warrior sister, firmly places her in a timeline.

And when did Diana every wear those star-spangled bike pants in THIS continuity? And shouldn't Batman have a yellow oval over his bat-chest emblem? And ... and ..... But what the heck, just enjoy the story !

The Blue Spider

04-06-2003, 10:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mikem:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TemporalFlux:
Just remember...it's only the shifting tides of Hypertime overlapping realities. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Perez may have been vague in the timing of WW's origin, but Diana appearing in LEGENDS, not speaking English and seeing Guy Gardner as her "first" man and Black Canary as a warrior sister, firmly places her in a timeline.
<hr /></blockquote>Let's test this theory then.

Did Wonder Woman come to the United States six to seven years ago?

Or was it in 1987?

Who was President of the United States in that story?

Yeah, right. Firmly entrenched in the timeline.
That explains the context of her appearances in Kevin Smith's Green Arrow run.

mikem

04-07-2003, 12:03 AM

[/qb][/QUOTE]Let's test this theory then.

Did Wonder Woman come to the United States six to seven years ago?

Or was it in 1987?

Who was President of the United States in that story?

Yeah, right. Firmly entrenched in the timeline.
That explains the context of her appearances in Kevin Smith's Green Arrow run.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Whoever was President doesn't mean anything. LBJ promoted Nick Fury to SHIELD director. That's over 35 years ago when Tony Stark help set up the organisation. Iron Man was injured in the Vietnam War which finished over 30 years ago. Captain America was seen with Ronald Reagan who hasn't been President for 15 years. As Cap has only been out of ice for up to 10 years, that theory goes up in smoke.

As I said, let's not get hung up on continuity, just enjoy the story.

The Blue Spider

04-07-2003, 12:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mikem:
[/qb]<hr /></blockquote>Let's test this theory then.

Did Wonder Woman come to the United States six to seven years ago?

Or was it in 1987?

Who was President of the United States in that story?

Yeah, right. Firmly entrenched in the timeline.
That explains the context of her appearances in Kevin Smith's Green Arrow run.[/QUOTE]

Whoever was President doesn't mean anything. LBJ promoted Nick Fury to SHIELD director. That's over 35 years ago when Tony Stark help set up the organisation. Iron Man was injured in the Vietnam War which finished over 30 years ago. Captain America was seen with Ronald Reagan who hasn't been President for 15 years. As Cap has only been out of ice for up to 10 years, that theory goes up in smoke.

As I said, let's not get hung up on continuity, just enjoy the story.[/QB][/QUOTE]

and I said that doesn't mean anything to be firmly placed in a timeline that ain't so firm itself.

story?

Grendel Prime

04-07-2003, 12:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mikem:
Perez may have been vague in the timing of WW's origin, but Diana appearing in LEGENDS, not speaking English and seeing Guy Gardner as her "first" man and Black Canary as a warrior sister, firmly places her in a timeline. <hr /></blockquote>Wagner said, “It’s not Diana's first excursion to man's world, but it is early on and she's not used to interacting with men as of yet."

Regardless, continuity should never be allowed to get in the way of a good story.

And I don't want to speak for anyone, but it seems to me that Wagner is much more interested in doing a character study that compares/contrasts the three most iconic figures of the DC pantheon (and comic book literature) than in writing a strict history treatise.

Wagner has been my favorite writer/artist/creator for years now, so I of course have a slanted view of the situation. From my perspective, this is an excellent opportunity for a master craftsman to flex his artistic muscles, and we all get to benefit from one bang-up-good-time story as a result.

Vivat Grendel!

The Blue Spider

04-08-2003, 10:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mikem:
Perez may have been vague in the timing of WW's origin, but Diana appearing in LEGENDS, not speaking English and seeing Guy Gardner as her "first" man and Black Canary as a warrior sister, firmly places her in a timeline. <hr /></blockquote>Wagner said, “It’s not Diana's first excursion to man's world, but it is early on and she's not used to interacting with men as of yet."

Regardless, continuity should never be allowed to get in the way of a good story.

And I don't want to speak for anyone, but it seems to me that Wagner is much more interested in doing a character study that compares/contrasts the three most iconic figures of the DC pantheon (and comic book literature) than in writing a strict history treatise.

Wagner has been my favorite writer/artist/creator for years now, so I of course have a slanted view of the situation. From my perspective, this is an excellent opportunity for a master craftsman to flex his artistic muscles, and we all get to benefit from one bang-up-good-time story as a result.

Vivat Grendel!<hr /></blockquote>Personally I believe that if it is a good story that can't be fit into continuity, it should never be published ever ever ever.

The editors should be better than that. They should know better. Continuity should be our dictator. The writer should be continuity's bitch.

I'm kidding. I mean none of that.

If a good story doesn't really flow with continuity it should have an 'Elseworlds' tag slapped on the cover, be published and move on.

Heck, even without that the readers riters and subsequent writers have ways of recognizing whether something is in-continuity or not and then take something as a good story regardless.

danzo

04-09-2003, 06:23 AM

from The Blue Spider:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I also like Wonder Woman's origin taking place earlier in relativity to Superman's. It makes more sense given her position outside of the continuity. It doesn't screw up continuity so much simply becaue Perez was so vague. Those same stories, most of 'em could take place earlier. Or not.<hr /></blockquote>yeah. exactly. thanks, Spider. oh, and why such a hang-up on continuity? not one long-running mainstream D.C. or Marvel character is without some glitches.... so just relax and enjoy the stories while remembering that continuity hiccups are part and parcel of CHARACTERS WHO DO NOT AGE!!! it's not their fault they're stuck like that as time passes rendering their histories silly. :D

rockieman

04-09-2003, 10:08 AM

Not to mention continuity changes every few years with some new direction for the characters. I've said it before, when you look at these stories again (I mean any story for any character) in a few years, you won't remember the minutae of what's going on in any particular universe at the time. What you'll be left with is whether or not a story can stand on its own.

And based upon Wagner's past work, this story should last.

(I really need to read Mage)

BoyWonder

04-12-2003, 08:21 AM

Matt Wagner's work on Batman has always been fantastic. The artwork to this looks awesome. However, I might wait for the trade.

Oh yeah, 100th post :D