Wonder Woman 219 [Archive]

Blind Assassin

07-27-2005, 11:20 AM

Bravo.

This story has it all: Action, Drama, Intrigue, Suspense, SHOCK and more SHOCK.

can you tell I liked it?

Rags Morales and his merry band of 4 other pencilers take on the battle of two of DC's biggest Icons.

It was much better than I thought. The consequences of failure for either one is pretty bad. The fact that they are friends, and sort of have a romantic past just makes this fight all the more harder to watch.

Diana tries to use words first, but has to resort to her warrior training to try to take out a brainwashed Superman. There was an interesting thing that Max Lord said, and I latched on to it, but I will wait until everyone else has read it before asking.

My only regret is that I wish the colors were a bit more vivid. This story would kick ass on glossy paper, but that is a minor personal quibble and really didn't detract from my enjoyment of the issue.

B+, and I bet next issue will be a better grade than this one. Can't wait to see it.

Blind Assassin

07-27-2005, 12:01 PM

This thread has over 53 views and not one response.

You were all expecting me to spoil the whole issue, weren't you?

;)

NeoSamurai

07-27-2005, 12:30 PM

Won't be able to get mine until Friday. I could get my OMAC 4, but I don't want to read that one until Sacrifice 4 is read.

Spoil me.

:(

Blind Assassin

07-27-2005, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by NeoSamurai
Won't be able to get mine until Friday. I could get my OMAC 4, but I don't want to read that one until Sacrifice 4 is read.

Spoil me.

:(

I have edited this post out of respect for the front page article on Newsarama asking us not to spoil the story.

While spoilers are anavoidable here, I think my 'page by page' synopsis of the book was something I shouldn't have put up here.

Carry on.

NeoSamurai

07-27-2005, 12:59 PM

Wow.

Simply wow.

Knew it was going to go down like that. Looking forward to seeing it happen in the book.

Kinda gives one of my theories a bit more "umph" with how Diana was unable to control Max...maybe because he was being controlled by someone else.

Punchy

07-27-2005, 01:01 PM

4 artists? God I hate fill-ins

Blind Assassin

07-27-2005, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
4 artists? God I hate fill-ins

5 actually. Its Rags and 4 others, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

OMAC 4 starts right where WW left off, so if WW was delayed (as originally thought it was going to be), it would have thrown a wrench in the works of the storytelling, as people would have seen the aftermath, but not what caused such a thing.

New Alfonso

07-27-2005, 01:47 PM

Congrats to DC for managing to get this issue out on time, despite the shifty scheduling.

HowAreWeToLive

07-27-2005, 01:55 PM

Most intense comic I've read in quite a while. This, and OMAC 4. I wish OMAC 5 and 6 came out in the same week, too. I can't wait 1 month!!!

Diana killed Max without even thinking twice. Kinda like Max killed Beetle. Kinda hypocritical, but Max showed, in this issue, that he's more dangerous than a lot of villains we've seen. He was frickin' nuts!

algertman

07-27-2005, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
4 artists? God I hate fill-ins

yeah, they should be like MARVEL and just have comicbooks disappear from any type of release dates

Jack Burton

07-27-2005, 01:56 PM

Ok so Superman is at odds with Wonder Woman for killing Max and Batman is at odds with Superman for kicking the crap out of him. Makes sense.

BanMan

07-27-2005, 02:03 PM

But this could really just be pushing Max's plan into action, if he is the one behind it. I mean to everyone else it'd look like Wonder Woman just snapped and killed a human, a powerless human. Cuz there's no way that's not gonna get out. Normal humans will distrust the supers and want nothing to do with them.

Makes me think about JLU now.

NeoSamurai

07-27-2005, 02:05 PM

All the tech involved (the Omac "virus", Max Lord being a cyborg, Brother I) makes me think of Braniac lurking behind everything.

Blind Assassin

07-27-2005, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by BanMan
But this could really just be pushing Max's plan into action, if he is the one behind it. I mean to everyone else it'd look like Wonder Woman just snapped and killed a human, a powerless human. Cuz there's no way that's not gonna get out. Normal humans will distrust the supers and want nothing to do with them.

EXACTLY!!

that was just what I was thinking as I read the issue.

HowAreWeToLive

07-27-2005, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Jack Burton
Ok so Superman is at odds with Wonder Woman for killing Max and Batman is at odds with Superman for kicking the crap out of him. Makes sense.

And Batman starts acting like Superman because the world is going to hell, and is no longer a recluse. And he feels guilty in small part.

Why can't they find the satellite?

BanMan

07-27-2005, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by NeoSamurai
All the tech involved (the Omac "virus", Max Lord being a cyborg, Brother I) makes me think of Braniac lurking behind everything.

Dammit. I hope not! That sorta killed me when he showed up in JLU. Blame it on Braniac. At this rate he'll be the Norman Osbourne of the DCU.

NeoSamurai

07-27-2005, 02:16 PM

That one was sorta out of left field though. This one would make some sense.

BanMan

07-27-2005, 02:18 PM

You might have a point.

tralfaz

07-27-2005, 02:18 PM

great issue... cant say anything more than that. would rather let people read it and find out for themselves but in this day of internet that doesnt happen anymore

as for wonder woman being hypocritcal. she's a warrior and did what needed to be done. its about time they showed how tough she really is. she made the tough decision, would superman? would batman?

Blind Assassin

07-27-2005, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by tralfaz
great issue... cant say anything more than that. would rather let people read it and find out for themselves but in this day of internet that doesnt happen anymore

I would agree with you, except that this forum is designed specifically to include spoilers.

Many people aren't buying every single issue.

Before I posted the 'synopsis', this thread had been viewed close to 80 times.

I also got 14 pms from people asking me to 'spoil it'.

instead of sending out 14 pms, I just put it here where people are going to find out about it anyway.

tralfaz

07-27-2005, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Blind Assassin
I would agree with you, except that this forum is designed specifically to include spoilers.

Many people aren't buying every single issue.

Before I posted the 'synopsis', this thread had been viewed close to 80 times.

I also got 14 pms from people asking me to 'spoil it'.

instead of sending out 14 pms, I just put it here where people are going to find out about it anyway.
i know. its just a shame that we really dont get the same feel from reading a comic like we used to before the internet.

LukeRed5

07-27-2005, 02:39 PM

I don't know much about Diana's character. How strict was her no killing rule?

HowAreWeToLive

07-27-2005, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by tralfaz
i know. its just a shame that we really dont get the same feel from reading a comic like we used to before the internet.

True. I spoiled it for myself this morning by going over to the DC boards, but when I read it - WOW. Just doesn't compare, even though I knew what was going to happen. I couldn't find OMAC 4, so that was great. I don't think I'll be looking for spoilers anymore.

HowAreWeToLive

07-27-2005, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by LukeRed5
I don't know much about Diana's character. How strict was her no killing rule?

Read Wonder Woman 219. You'll see how strict it was ;-)

ElijahSnowFan

07-27-2005, 03:03 PM

...so i'm glad this stuff is here!

my pull list vixen victimized me this week, so i have to wait for the re-ship of the issue! so never be shy about spoiling it if people are asking for it -- some of us have absolutely no problem with has much detail as possible, because you never know what might be happening later in the week that makes you not able to grab a book.

KSChris

07-27-2005, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by algertman
yeah, they should be like MARVEL and just have comicbooks disappear from any type of release dates

Can you ever say anything without Marvel bashing? Is that at all possible for you?... :rolleyes:

Blind Assassin

07-27-2005, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by DaReekstah
Can you ever say anything without Marvel bashing? Is that at all possible for you?... :rolleyes:

I felt the same way.

Then I put him on ignore.

of course, people like you sometimes quote his posts, (which I can't ignore), but when I see them, I realise I made the right decision. :D

Johnny Smith

07-27-2005, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by DaReekstah
Can you ever say anything without Marvel bashing? Is that at all possible for you?... :rolleyes:

No, the great algertman can't say anything without Marvel bashing.

But that's only because the antics of the House of Q invite bashing and snarky comments ... ;)

I am MODOK

07-28-2005, 10:03 AM

Very interesting story, and I loved seeing the brainwashing of Supes from WW's point of view, with Supes just mumbling about what he saw. With the other parts of Sacrifice, that was a nice effect.

Great use of Diana's powers too, the fingers to the eyes, the birds, and the headband were all neat scenes.

But the art. I like some of the folks involved, Rags and Jeantty are both good. Kershcl and Derenick are decent too, but they don't have the same style...

I realize DC probably had to jump through hoops to get this issue out on time, but...

Story: B+
Art: F

Supreme Convoy

07-28-2005, 10:14 AM

Yep #219 definitely lived up to my expecations. While I would love the Wonder Woman vs Superman fight to go on longer... I want 60 page epic for everytime a superhero throws it down with another :)

It's an insanely good read and for those not reading OMAC and Sacrifice, they're missing out on some great stuff. And it's not even over yet so I'm dying to see what happens next. DAMN YOU RUCKA! I want #5 and #6 now!

IvCNuB4

07-28-2005, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by I am MODOK
Great use of Diana's powers too, the fingers to the eyes, the birds, and the headband were all neat scenes.
Story: B+
Art: F

I agree but since when is she that powerful ? Surviving in outerspace without oxygen, being that close to the sun, surviving re-entry and and a crash-landing to Earth :confused: :confused:

I am MODOK

07-28-2005, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by IvCNuB4
I agree but since when is she that powerful ? Surviving in outerspace without oxygen, being that close to the sun, surviving re-entry and and a crash-landing to Earth :confused: :confused:

I agree, she did seem to have her powers amped up, but you know what? I didn't mind! I guess I haven't read enough Wonder Woman to immediatley cry foul at anything I read. I was impressed, I did think she stood up to Supes VERY well. I mean, I guess they are just about equal in the invulnerability and strength dept, it is just that Supes has more powers.

So I do see your point, but like I said, I was impressed that Diana held up so well.

BanMan

07-28-2005, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by IvCNuB4
I agree but since when is she that powerful ? Surviving in outerspace without oxygen, being that close to the sun, surviving re-entry and and a crash-landing to Earth :confused: :confused:

Maybe she held her breath. Her lungs probably have a large capacity. Additionally she's gotta be plenty tough to hang with the big boys. That deflecting bullets stuff is just for flash. :p

Blind Assassin

07-28-2005, 10:58 AM

I am an on again/off again reader who has followed Rucka's run, but i thought it odd that WW posessed a 'healing factor' akin to Wolverine in this issue.

I mean, Superman, believing she is Doomsday, blasts her with his HEAT VISION right in the face.

She even says "I can feel my bones burn", and her face is scarred.

Two pages later there (and for the rest of the story) her face is unblemished.

That was the only part that bugged me.

Where did she get the power to regenerate burnt bone and skin tissue?

NeoSamurai

07-28-2005, 11:03 AM

Umm...magic clay?

DKBC Commish

07-28-2005, 11:44 AM

This issue was sold out when I got to the comic store yesterday thankfully one of the employees let me have his copy. So thank you Highlander Comix on Colfax in beautiful Denver, Colorado!!

I have been reading comics for over 20 years and this was the first time I ever shook while reading! I was mesmorized! I was trully concerned. Greg Rucka owns me! As I was reading I kept thinking "This is it! Things will never be the same!" What DC is doing right now is remarkable. I believe that we may be experiencing a real Golden Age of comics.

Ragnarokker

07-28-2005, 01:18 PM

This was one of the few times that a comic book has caused me to emote a verbal outburst while reading it. The panel that I won't spoil caused me to shout "GOO!" It was really a great shock. I definitely didn't see it coming. Great stuff. Sacrifice turned out to be a pretty darn good sub plot to Countdown to infinite crisis.

By the way Wonder Woman doesn't heal I specifically remember seeing one of the final panels and she has these two huge burn scars across the side of her face and ear. Look again its there.

MrBlonde

07-28-2005, 01:21 PM

I particulary hate whenever a hero fights another it has to be cuz something has happened (brainwash, mistaken identity, identified as potential threat, etc)

I know most of them arent warriors, but u dont have to be on the other side of the fence to fight someone... it's not like they'll become lifetimes enemies afterwards... who hasnt had a fistfight with a friend? Did ya stop being friends? People who hasnt been particularly close started being friends after a fistfight...

It would be great to see Superman & Wonder Woman fight each other knowingly and give everything they got... just fer the sake of us fans...

algertman

07-28-2005, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by DaReekstah
Can you ever say anything without Marvel bashing? Is that at all possible for you?... :rolleyes:

depends if I'm drunk or not

BanMan

07-28-2005, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by MrBlonde

I particulary hate whenever a hero fights another it has to be cuz something has happened (brainwash, mistaken identity, identified as potential threat, etc)

I know most of them arent warriors, but u dont have to be on the other side of the fence to fight someone... it's not like they'll become lifetimes enemies afterwards... who hasnt had a fistfight with a friend? Did ya stop being friends? People who hasnt been particularly close started being friends after a fistfight...

It would be great to see Superman & Wonder Woman fight each other knowingly and give everything they got... just fer the sake of us fans...

Well in general I can see your point. Wanna be the fight promoter?

Kahooniart

07-28-2005, 07:02 PM

Mindwash, mindcontrol, whatever
WHAT A GOOD ISSUE, DC really had two hits on the shelves this week FLash and Wondy, now i'm going for OMAC 4...

djnicca

07-28-2005, 08:37 PM

the copies of WW #219 sent to my local comic shop got damaged so i can't get my copy until next week, which means i can read my issue of OMAC #4 until next week, which means i'm depressed.

Los' the Red

07-28-2005, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by LukeRed5
I don't know much about Diana's character. How strict was her no killing rule?

I actually think it's pretty strict. However, Diana now has "Athena's eys" which makes her wise. In this case, her wisdom told her the right thing to do was to kill Max Lord because he could control Superman. With that control, he could have caused an unimaginable amount of destruction.

That being said, I thought that the whole Sacrafice arc was a bit of a let down.

ThisOneKidMongo

07-28-2005, 11:10 PM

God. It literally hurts to look at that "earshot" page, it looks so damn brutal. It helps that they let Superman scream like a girl on that page. I mean, when it's Superman screaming like a girl, you know it's gotta friggin' hurt. There's not many times I would prefer to view a blatant and graphic shot to the groin. Good job, whichever of this issue's 367 artists drew that particular portion of that particular page.

This will sound weird and sarcastic, but I really think Superman's exact choice of scream, and even the lettering of it -- "HNAAAAAAAAHH -- really made that scene. I mean, that's perfect. Imagine how less powerful it would look if Supes was screaming "Yoooow!" "Oochie!" or "Quit it, woman!" there. Wouldn't be quite as effective, would it?

And regarding Wonder Woman's invulnerability, by my understanding she's almost on par with Superman against blunt force, but she's many times more susceptible to ah, "penetration" wounds, like bullets, spears, or abruptly-aroused Martian Manhunter. Because y'know, there weren't enough layers of sexual subtext to Wonder Woman already.

Anyway, good issue, even though I'm still a little ambivalent about the direction this whole Infinite Crisis shindig is taking. Still, it's nice to see one of DC's major heroes come to her senses and break away from the whole black-and-white morality thing which really has come to make little sense in their little fictional universe.

P.S. When did Diana get that whole "Aquaman but with birds" power?

MPJ

07-29-2005, 04:42 AM

Man I cannot remember the last time I was actually psyched up for a Superman story

but this one was awesome!!

Originally posted by Johnny Smith
But that's only because the antics of the House of Q invite bashing and snarky comments ... ;) Funny how 99% of the board seems to decline that invitation when they're posting in non-Marvel threads

and I just read that - this board has an ignore function? worth considering

paulski

07-29-2005, 05:19 AM

I had to make sure I read this one last night after work, and boy, was it worth it!

Probably one of the best fight scenes I can recall. If only Rags had been able to illustrate the whole issue! The fill-in pages varied from nice to amateurish (especially, I assume, Derenick and Lopez's pages), but I was still able to thoroughly enjoy it. Just a shame I had an idea how it was going to end due to an errant post on the Rucka thread elsewhere. :(

To those whiny bitches complaining about being 'lied to by DC', just go ahead and buy the damn issue. You won't regret it.

Writing: A
Artwork (Rags): A
Artwork (The rest): B-
Coloring: B+

Garyprime

07-29-2005, 11:38 AM

Well, I've been reading comics for over 20 years, and this is the first time I've liked Wonder Woman. From her being practically the only person to listen and care about Blue Beetle, to her behavior in this issue, she is becoming one of my favorite characters. Great job Rucka! And I have to say, the ground work they are laying for Infinite Crisis is incredible. I have no idea where this is going, but its nice to see a substantial build up to a company wide "event". Usually they just come out of the blue. This is a hell of a ride.

Doc Holiday

07-30-2005, 02:29 PM

I am glad that so many people liked this issue. Personally, I hated it. One long fight scene I find boring. But the ending?

She wouldn't have done it. Period. Not Wonder Woman. She's not Wolverine. She is an Ambassodor for Peace. This is a comic book; they could have written other alternatives. So I think it cheapens the character and the whole Crisis thing. It's like listing "injury to the eye" as a positive in the price guides.

The bird thing is relatively new; Rucka introduced it about six months ago (?). But to think that a flock of birds is going to slow down a Superman in an insane rage. . . is ridiculous. I liked the use of the tiara, though.

I have said this on the Rucka thread (I have enjoyed his run on WW up to now, btw)--I fear that DC is throwing away the babies with the bathwater. They are undermining the basic characterizations, the foundations of the characters themselves. I know many of you find it "realistic" and see it as character growth, but I think it is the easiest shortcut to avoiding the genuinely hard work of writing a complex character with shortcomings but still heroic that the reader can relate to.

I really just don't think Wonder Woman would have done it.

Darth Tigris

07-30-2005, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by IvCNuB4
I agree but since when is she that powerful ? Surviving in outerspace without oxygen, being that close to the sun, surviving re-entry and and a crash-landing to Earth :confused: :confused:

It's called 'stretching abilities to fit the plot'. It happens so much in comics now that I don't even get mad about it anymore.

Ryan Grant

07-30-2005, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by IvCNuB4
I agree but since when is she that powerful ? Surviving in outerspace without oxygen, being that close to the sun, surviving re-entry and and a crash-landing to Earth :confused: :confused:

Back in Morrison's arc with the White Martians, she beat one of them by taking them into outer space until they passed out. It lead to a funny scene where Batman detailed exactly how long he could hold his breath, compared to Diana.

So, the surviving without air thing is established.

--Ryan--

Groovie Mann

07-30-2005, 05:35 PM

skaly

07-30-2005, 08:44 PM

I love what Rucka is doing with Wonder Woman. She has Superman's strength and Batman's fighting spirit. She's a true warrior. When she seeks to end a conflict, she makes her decisions and doesn't waver. She's also an outsider in a way that is greater than either Batman or Superman. She was raised in a warrior culture, so it makes sense that, in certain situations, she would be prepared to kill.

I refer you to Adventures of Superman #636, in which Wonder Woman reveals her philosophy on killing. After reading that, Wonder Woman's characterization crystalized for me. Rucka didn't just decide, "Oh, I'm going to make Wonder Woman a killer today." The groundwork has been lain.

http://www.mycomicshop.com/webpics/B3229636.JPG

OMAC

07-31-2005, 08:42 AM

Wow. Just wow. What an amazing issue. Absolutely brilliant. The OMAC Project #4 was even better.

I love it.

Punchy

07-31-2005, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by omac3000
Wow. Just wow. What an amazing issue. Absolutely brilliant. The OMAC Project #4 was even better.

I love it.

I disagree, OMAC #4 paled in comparison to this, not enough Supes, Wondy or the old JLI and too much of Sasha 'I have no personality' Bordeaux.

skaly

07-31-2005, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
I disagree, OMAC #4 paled in comparison to this, not enough Supes, Wondy or the old JLI and too much of Sasha 'I have no personality' Bordeaux.

I think she's very strong. Look at how devoted she is to Batman and his mission. He must really trust her, and that's saying something.

Punchy

07-31-2005, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by skaly
I think she's very strong. Look at how devoted she is to Batman and his mission. He must really trust her, and that's saying something.

But she's sooooooooooooo boring, and only there cos she's Rucka's Jessica Jones.

If she's the new Blue Beetle, I will becoem the anti-matter Alfonso!

OMAC

07-31-2005, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
I disagree, OMAC #4 paled in comparison to this, not enough Supes, Wondy or the old JLI and too much of Sasha 'I have no personality' Bordeaux.
SPOILERS

The OMAC Project is not about Sasha. It's about Brother Eye and how it will methodically take down all the superheroes. I like the fact that there is more to Sasha, but she's probably dead now. It was great that my theory that Brother Eye was becoming sentient actually happened. I thought the whole crossover was really, really clever and then OMAC #4 threw away the rule books and upped the ante.

You know that Wizard preview of Infinite Crisis? The little panel with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman standing in the wreckage of (what seems to be) the Watchtower? I reckon the OMACs did that. I reckon Brother Eye and the OMACs will bring about the Infinite Crisis. Brother Eye will probably also attack Luthor's Society as well as the heroes.

Punchy

07-31-2005, 01:48 PM

If its not about Sasha, then why is she in it more than anyone else? It was solicited as being about Brother I and Batman, but DC lied, that's twice they've lied about OMAC :p

No1insight

07-31-2005, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
If its not about Sasha, then why is she in it more than anyone else? It was solicited as being about Brother I and Batman, but DC lied, that's twice they've lied about OMAC :p

Wasn't she just killed in OMAC #4? Besides, it's not like they lied...okay, now I see the :p....never mind ;)

Vandekar

07-31-2005, 07:31 PM

Loved it,but i wanted to see Booster Gold take Max out.

rbenevid

07-31-2005, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by No1insight
Wasn't she just killed in OMAC #4? Besides, it's not like they lied...okay, now I see the :p....never mind ;)

Was she that Omac killed? I was in doubt. She and the other girl (forget her name) are drawn so alike.

paulski

07-31-2005, 11:26 PM

Yes, it was Sasha. But I don't believe for a second that she's actually dead.

Garyprime

08-01-2005, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
I am glad that so many people liked this issue. Personally, I hated it. One long fight scene I find boring. But the ending?

She wouldn't have done it. Period. Not Wonder Woman. She's not Wolverine. She is an Ambassodor for Peace. This is a comic book; they could have written other alternatives. So I think it cheapens the character and the whole Crisis thing. It's like listing "injury to the eye" as a positive in the price guides.

The bird thing is relatively new; Rucka introduced it about six months ago (?). But to think that a flock of birds is going to slow down a Superman in an insane rage. . . is ridiculous. I liked the use of the tiara, though.

I have said this on the Rucka thread (I have enjoyed his run on WW up to now, btw)--I fear that DC is throwing away the babies with the bathwater. They are undermining the basic characterizations, the foundations of the characters themselves. I know many of you find it "realistic" and see it as character growth, but I think it is the easiest shortcut to avoiding the genuinely hard work of writing a complex character with shortcomings but still heroic that the reader can relate to.

I really just don't think Wonder Woman would have done it.

I can definitely see your point, and I agree to a certain extent. There is a lot going on in this lead up to Crisis that I don't find particularly heroic. I thought that most of Identity Crisis was just really bad. A lot of stuff that I didn't feel belonged in a superhero comic. But this issue really worked for me. First of all, like I said, I haven't been a fan of Wonder Woman before, so I don't have the problem with this being out of character for her. Secondly, I didn't feel like this is comparable to Wolverine at all. I felt like Diana knew that the only way to protect everyone from Superman, and to save Superman from doing things that would inevitably destroy him, was to kill Max Lord. Max said so himself under the influence of her lasso. It seemed to me that she knew how to stop this, so she took it on herself to do it, so that no one else would be forced to. That was the ultimate sacrifice on her part (hence the name of the arc). She was forced to betray her beliefs in order to save everyone. Like I said, its the compassion of the character that is making me like her so much. That being said, I didn't need to see Max's twisted head and lifeless eyes. They could definitely let you know what happened without showing every detail. I had the same problem with Beetle's death scene. Just gratuitous. C'mon DC, have some class.

Garyprime

08-01-2005, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
But she's sooooooooooooo boring, and only there cos she's Rucka's Jessica Jones.

If she's the new Blue Beetle, I will becoem the anti-matter Alfonso!

Then you will definitely become the anti-matter Alfonso.

New Alfonso

08-01-2005, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
But she's sooooooooooooo boring, and only there cos she's Rucka's Jessica Jones.

Wow. Guess you never read Rucka's incredible Detective run, to find out how rich a character Sasha came to be, not to mention that she was created back in 2000.

Johnny Smith

08-01-2005, 02:40 PM

Son of Satan

08-01-2005, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
Wow. Guess you never read Rucka's incredible Detective run, to find out how rich a character Sasha came to be, not to mention that she was created back in 2000.
That doesn't make her any less of a Mary Sue, coming into the narrative shortly after Rucka came on board, rising to be nearly the most important character in it, getting to be a partner to Bats, finding out his coolest secrets after a fashion...sorry, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Not to say I don't like Sasha, but she is what she is.

~G.

Punchy

08-01-2005, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
Wow. Guess you never read Rucka's incredible Detective run, to find out how rich a character Sasha came to be, not to mention that she was created back in 2000.

If I find her dull now, why would I find her interesting when she's written by the same guy 5 years ago? Especially in a Batman book :blech:

I've been reading comics since 1997 btw.

New Alfonso

08-01-2005, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
If I find her dull now, why would I find her interesting when she's written by the same guy 5 years ago? Especially in a Batman book :blech:

I've been reading comics since 1997 btw.

So? You called her "Rucka's Jessica Jones", which makes zero sense based on her role in OMAC, and makes even less sense considering she was created first and written better.

Punchy

08-01-2005, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
So? You called her "Rucka's Jessica Jones", which makes zero sense based on her role in OMAC, and makes even less sense considering she was created first and written better.

What you just said has no bearing on what you quoted, she is Rucka's Jessica Jones like Tarantula is Devin Graysons, pet characters in the books to look good.

New Alfonso

08-01-2005, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
What you just said has no bearing on what you quoted, she is Rucka's Jessica Jones like Tarantula is Devin Graysons, pet characters in the books to look good.

Or how about, Jessica Jones is Bendis' Sasha?

Garyprime

08-01-2005, 06:55 PM

Punchy

08-01-2005, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
Or how about, Jessica Jones is Bendis' Sasha?

Does it matter who did it first? God, even if she was created beforehand, it doesn't make her a better character.

:rolleyes:

Michael Hawk

08-01-2005, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Vandekar
Loved it,but i wanted to see Booster Gold take Max out. I would rather see Booster and the rest of the JLI and FKAtJL gang beat the crap out of Max while shouting, "What the hell happened to you, you greedy ass!!!"

Michael Hawk

08-01-2005, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
Does it matter who did it first? God, even if she was created beforehand, it doesn't make her a better character.

:rolleyes: Of course it does because in Alfonso World, real facts don't matter.

No1insight

08-01-2005, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
Does it matter who did it first? God, even if she was created beforehand, it doesn't make her a better character.

:rolleyes:

I think his point is that Sasha was around before Jessica, which makes it more likely for Jessica to be inspired by Sasha or whatever.

And I don't know why any of the people in this thread are/should-be complaining about pet characters. Almost every run has pet characters, just look at Johns' acclaimed Flash run - a lot of new characters/ideas were introduced - and he used most of those ideas/characters a lot...I'm not saying they were bad ideas, though. It's just that every run basically has a few characters or ideas that a writer really really loves. Sasha happens to be Rucka's....big whoop. Rucka also introduced a bunch of supporting casts when he come on board WW, including Ferdinand, etc.

No1insight

08-01-2005, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Michael Hawk
I would rather see Booster and the rest of the JLI and FKAtJL gang beat the crap out of Max while shouting, "What the hell happened to you, you greedy ass!!!"

...and G'not delivers the final blow? :D because he better!

Punchy

08-01-2005, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by No1insight
I think his point is that Sasha was around before Jessica, which makes it more likely for Jessica to be inspired by Sasha or whatever.

And I don't know why any of the people in this thread are/should-be complaining about pet characters. Almost every run has pet characters, just look at Johns' acclaimed Flash run - a lot of new characters/ideas were introduced - and he used most of those ideas/characters a lot...I'm not saying they were bad ideas, though. It's just that every run basically has a few characters or ideas that a writer really really loves. Sasha happens to be Rucka's....big whoop. Rucka also introduced a bunch of supporting casts when he come on board WW, including Ferdinand, etc.

I'm not saying Sasha was inspired by Jessica, but that they are similar in the mary-sue aspect.

New Alfonso

08-01-2005, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
I'm not saying Sasha was inspired by Jessica, but that they are similar in the mary-sue aspect.

And actually, they're not. Rucka never used Sasha once since he wrote her off in his Detective run, which was why it was a huge surprise to many people to see her again in OMAC. I'm not saying that YOU need to appreciate her and have to read all her past appearances, but you should at least know what you're talking about before you go running off at the mouth with incorrect points the way you have.

No1insight

08-01-2005, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
I'm not saying Sasha was inspired by Jessica, but that they are similar in the mary-sue aspect.

I agree, somewhat...well here's an explination of a Mary-Sue-character:

Well, "Mary Sue" is an unkind term used to describe a certain kind of character, a style of writing. She (or he) is created to serve one purpose: wish fulfilment. When a writer invents someone through whom he/she can have fantastic adventures and meet famous people (fictional or real), this character is a Mary Sue. (We don't have a name for the male version -- suggestions?)

Although storytellers have been rehashing Mary Sue since the dawn of time, she did not receive her current name until the early 1970s. The original was Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet -- only fifteen and a half years old") as immortalized in Paula Smith's "A Trekkie's Tale," which she wrote and published in her 1974 fanzine Menagerie #2. (According to Katherine Langley: "Paula is still active in fandom and, to be sure, suitably bemused that Mary Sue lives on.")

Mary Sue is any original or deeply altered character who represents a slice of his/her creator's own ego; s/he is treasured by his/her creator but only rarely by anyone else. More negatively, a Mary Sue is a primadonna (usually but not always badly-written) who saps life and realism out of every other character around, taking over the plot and bending canon to serve his/her selfish purposes.

However, to be fair, even the most trite Mary Sue serves a psychological purpose for his or her creator...and sometimes, believe it or not, the best can wind up being lauded as legitimate characters and gathering fans beyond their original scope. You never know...

I believe Jessica has some roots with Bendis' psyche, but I don't think Sasha has anything to do with Rucka personally. They are both favorites of the writer, and OMAC so far is about a lot of things: Breaking up the Trinity, Brother I/Checkmate, and the JLI forming again. Sasha is our window into Checkmate, so I guess it makes sense to have some of the issues focus on her. Jessica hasn't really appeared outside Alias and The Pulse (Did she appear in NA?). So yeah, I don't think they are nessecarily mary-sue-characters. I'm not really arguing with you, or whatever..

Punchy

08-01-2005, 07:15 PM

Geez, when did everyone become Doctor Semantics all of a sudden, I said I don't like her cos Rucka is pushing her into prominence too much, can you just accept that?

Michael Hawk

08-01-2005, 07:18 PM

Johnny Smith

08-01-2005, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
Geez, when did everyone become Doctor Semantics all of a sudden, I said I don't like her cos Rucka is pushing her into prominence too much, can you just accept that?

Once every three years is too much? :rolleyes:

It's not like she's a Jessica Jones, who shows up all over the Bendis-verse (Daredevil, Alias, Pulse, Secret War, New Avengers)

Michael Hawk

08-01-2005, 07:29 PM

No1insight

08-01-2005, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Michael Hawk
Yes, because it's wrong for the wife of one of the team members to show up. :rolleyes:

Well, now you know why Sue was killed :p

I'm not proving you wrong, Doctor Punch - I just don't think she's a mary sue character

gwangung

08-01-2005, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
Geez, when did everyone become Doctor Semantics all of a sudden..

When you started getting sloppy with your words and trying to conflate "Mary Sue" with "I don't like this character."

skaly

08-01-2005, 11:12 PM

If I had to rank my favorite Countdown minis from favorite to least favorite it would be this:

1) Day of Vengeance
2) Villains United
3) OMAC Project
4) Rann/Thanagar War

OMAC is okay, but I dislike how very humorless it is. The mood is way too dark. At least DoV and VU have a sense of fun. But I suppose it's a good thing that each mini-series is offering us something different in terms of storytelling and tone. To each their own.

Michael Hawk

08-01-2005, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by skaly
If I had to rank my favorite Countdown minis from favorite to least favorite it would be this:

1) Day of Vengeance
2) Villains United
3) OMAC Project
4) Rann/Thanagar War

OMAC is okay, but I dislike how very humorless it is. The mood is way too dark. At least DoV and VU have a sense of fun. But I suppose it's a good thing that each mini-series is offering us something different in terms of storytelling and tone. To each their own. Completely agree with you, skaly, on each mini.

New Alfonso

08-02-2005, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by gwangung
When you started getting sloppy with your words and trying to conflate "Mary Sue" with "I don't like this character."

Thank you!

New Alfonso

08-02-2005, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Michael Hawk
Yes, because it's wrong for the wife of one of the team members to show up. :rolleyes:

Because it's overkill for a nonsuperhero detective to show up in five other superhero stories. Let's not forget Young Avengers.

And speaking of her "husband", that's another example of Bendis' favorites showing up everywhere. And let's not even get into how many books he writes with Spider-man and Wolverine in them.

Rucka has written Sasha in a whopping total of two titles, which had a break of three years between the two. I guess you might as well yell at Mike Mignola for playing favorites with Hellboy. Or heck, why not yell at Rucka again for writing a sequel to Whiteout, or using Atticus Kodiak in five of his novels.

I mean, I'm sorry, did I miss Sasha taking over the role of Wonder Woman in her own title? Did she become Superman's new lover in Adventures? Is she part of the Gotham Central police force? Does Rucka really take her everywhere?

Jack Assen

08-02-2005, 12:24 AM

I hate to bring this back to topic but...

I don't think WW's code against killing IS very strict. She killed Zeus' bodyguard a few issues back for little reason other than to support a coup, and she did it in exactly the same manner that a friend's child was "killed" a few issues earlier. She allowed Ares to kill Hades with nothing more than an "I had hoped you wouldn't kill him." (quote may not be exact)

I've only been reading WW since Rucka took over (other than a handful of the Perez issues and a bunch of long-ago-and-so-no-longer-relevant-to-continuity issues from the 70s and early 80s), so I can't tell you how gradual this progression is. But she seems to have a very pragmatic approach these days, and her approach to dealing with Max seems to support this.

I liked it. A nice set-up to the "Crisis of Conscience," made even more interesting by Superman's complicity. Should make an interesting pro/con death penalty analogue for the future.

Michael Hawk

08-02-2005, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
Because it's overkill for a nonsuperhero detective to show up in five other superhero stories. Let's not forget Young Avengers.

And speaking of her "husband", that's another example of Bendis' favorites showing up everywhere. And let's not even get into how many books he writes with Spider-man and Wolverine in them.

Rucka has written Sasha in a whopping total of two titles, which had a break of three years between the two. I guess you might as well yell at Mike Mignola for playing favorites with Hellboy. Or heck, why not yell at Rucka again for writing a sequel to Whiteout, or using Atticus Kodiak in five of his novels.

I mean, I'm sorry, did I miss Sasha taking over the role of Wonder Woman in her own title? Did she become Superman's new lover in Adventures? Is she part of the Gotham Central police force? Does Rucka really take her everywhere? Honestly, you got all your facts wrong. Maybe instead of bitching so much about Marvel, you should actually read them and actually see how indifferent Marvel and DC are.

New Alfonso

08-02-2005, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Michael Hawk
actually see how indifferent Marvel and DC are.

Indifferent to what? :p

Jack Assen

08-02-2005, 01:04 AM

Sorry... I guess I didn't bring it back to topic after all.

Michael Hawk

08-02-2005, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
Indifferent to what? :p So I messed up on my vocabulary.

New Alfonso

08-02-2005, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by Michael Hawk
So I messed up on my vocabulary.

That seems to be a running theme in this thread. :p

Punchy

08-02-2005, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
That seems to be a running theme in this thread. :p

You know what I hear when I read your posts? Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, constantly belittling others and picking people apart, do you even enjoy comics? I don't think you do, why don't you move out of your parent's house and find a hobby for the over-30s?

ANOMALY

08-02-2005, 03:32 AM

ANOMALY

08-02-2005, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by Johnny Smith
2000 - wasn't that before Punchy started reading comics? ;)

Ladies and Gentlemen. Allow me to introduce you to Alfonso's sidekick. Tights, pixy boots and all.

ANOMALY

08-02-2005, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by Johnny Smith
Once every three years is too much? :rolleyes:

It's not like she's a Jessica Jones, who shows up all over the Bendis-verse (Daredevil, Alias, Pulse, Secret War, New Avengers)

Alias and the Pulse are her series. Of course she appears there. And Alias is no longer published. She was only in Daredevil for a few issues and had a legitimate reason to be there. Secret War is a miniseries in which her boyfriend, who's child she is carrying by the way, is almost killed. Hmmm, I wonder why she appears there. And when was Jessica in New Avenger? You must be talking about Young Avengers. And I'll give you that she doesn't just have to be there, but for the most part you, like usual, are just nitpicking.

Johnny Smith

08-02-2005, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by ANOMALY
Alias and the Pulse are her series. Of course she appears there. And Alias is no longer published. She was only in Daredevil for a few issues and had a legitimate reason to be there. Secret War is a miniseries in which her boyfriend, who's child she is carrying by the way, is almost killed. Hmmm, I wonder why she appears there. And when was Jessica in New Avenger? You must be talking about Young Avengers. And I'll give you that she doesn't just have to be there, but for the most part you, like usual, are just nitpicking.

Issue 3 of New Avengers.

I didn't mention Young Avengers since that's not written by Bendis ... :rolleyes:

Johnny Smith

08-02-2005, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
Because it's overkill for a nonsuperhero detective to show up in five other superhero stories. Let's not forget Young Avengers.

And speaking of her "husband", that's another example of Bendis' favorites showing up everywhere. And let's not even get into how many books he writes with Spider-man and Wolverine in them.

Rucka has written Sasha in a whopping total of two titles, which had a break of three years between the two. I guess you might as well yell at Mike Mignola for playing favorites with Hellboy. Or heck, why not yell at Rucka again for writing a sequel to Whiteout, or using Atticus Kodiak in five of his novels.

I mean, I'm sorry, did I miss Sasha taking over the role of Wonder Woman in her own title? Did she become Superman's new lover in Adventures? Is she part of the Gotham Central police force? Does Rucka really take her everywhere?

Game, Set, and Match.

Or as Punchy might say, "you just won Wimbledon" :p

MPJ

08-02-2005, 09:12 AM

Johnny Smith declaring New Alphonso as the winner in a debate is almost like New Alphonso declaring New Alphonso as the winner in a debate

:rolleyes:

Either way - if my suspicions of the Sasha chick becoming the next Beetle are right then I'm so not interested, bleh!

but then again maybe she'll be the next Spectre host - the Spirit of Vengeance... now with hooters

hmmmm she'd be more suitable for that role IMO

Punchy

08-02-2005, 09:27 AM

Ok, Alfonso, I apologize for misclassifying Sasha, I didn't have a dictionary at hand, so I retract my 'mary-sue' statement.

Sorry :o

Garyprime

08-02-2005, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Jack Assen
Sorry... I guess I didn't bring it back to topic after all.

Nice try. :)

New Alfonso

08-02-2005, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
You know what I hear when I read your posts? Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons, constantly belittling others and picking people apart, do you even enjoy comics? I don't think you do, why don't you move out of your parent's house and find a hobby for the over-30s?

You're right, I hate comics. HATE THEM. That's why I post on a comic book website. I'm a demon, sent by Wertham from the underworld, to destroy the comics industry by posting on the internet.

FEAR MY POWAH!!!!!!!!

New Alfonso

08-02-2005, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Punchy
Ok, Alfonso, I apologize for misclassifying Sasha, I didn't have a dictionary at hand, so I retract my 'mary-sue' statement.

Sorry :o

I still love you :)

New Alfonso

08-02-2005, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by MPJ
Johnny Smith declaring New Alphonso as the winner in a debate is almost like New Alphonso declaring New Alphonso as the winner in a debate

I declare myself the winner! YAY!!!!!

Either way - if my suspicions of the Sasha chick becoming the next Beetle are right then I'm so not interested, bleh!

If this happens, I'll burn down my house :)

NeoSamurai

08-02-2005, 04:13 PM

I think it's going to be interesting to see the consequences of Diana's actions. She has accepted what she did internally and has no qualms with what she did. However, I think her crisis will be how her actions affect her mission and how others relate to her.

Punchy

08-02-2005, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
If this happens, I'll burn down my house :)

Same here

ANOMALY

08-03-2005, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by MPJ
Johnny Smith declaring New Alphonso as the winner in a debate is almost like New Alphonso declaring New Alphonso as the winner in a debate

:rolleyes:

Either way - if my suspicions of the Sasha chick becoming the next Beetle are right then I'm so not interested, bleh!

but then again maybe she'll be the next Spectre host - the Spirit of Vengeance... now with hooters

hmmmm she'd be more suitable for that role IMO

Sasha bein the host just doesn't seem right.
This story is called sacrifice right? Why would Max make that sacrifice unless he had something planned. It wouldn't make sense for him to leave all of his grandiose plans to a satellite. What if Max is going to be the next Spectre Host? That would really be scary.

New Alfonso

08-03-2005, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Punchy
Same here

Pft, but you'd burn down my house anyway :p

Punchy

08-03-2005, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by New Alfonso
Pft, but you'd burn down my house anyway :p

I meant my house, but if you're offering :p

New Alfonso

08-03-2005, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by Punchy
I meant my house, but if you're offering :p

Only if you bring the s'mores.

Garyprime

08-03-2005, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by ANOMALY
Sasha bein the host just doesn't seem right.
This story is called sacrifice right? Why would Max make that sacrifice unless he had something planned. It wouldn't make sense for him to leave all of his grandiose plans to a satellite. What if Max is going to be the next Spectre Host? That would really be scary.

I still say it was Wonder Woman who made the sacrifice by killing Max. I don't think Max wanted to die. Originally, I thought maybe it was his grand plan to set all of this into motion by having a hero kill him, but if you look at his face when he tells Wonder Woman that killing him is the only way to free Superman, he looks scared. Besides, I thought the Spectre's host served as his conscience. Max would suck at that job.

And Sasha being the new host for the Blue Beetle may not seem right, but I'd be shocked if she wasn't. First, she resists Max's mind control, then she gets a sudden surge of super strength to throw off the other chick. Then she's out of it for a while and her eyes are BLUE. Mark my words, there are gonna be some burning houses when this is all over.

georgeshabo

08-03-2005, 06:20 PM

I thought the transformation was to show that she was an OMAC. I guess I should recheck that to see if I got it wrong.

Wonder Woman has killed multiple times back in the Perez Days: Diemos and Decay off the top of my head, but I'm not aware of her killing a human before. At least not on purpose. With the storyline though, it made perfect sense to me.

Garyprime

08-03-2005, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by georgeshabo
I thought the transformation was to show that she was an OMAC. I guess I should recheck that to see if I got it wrong.

That's what they want you to think, but how many OMACs get a little OMAC power, then revert, then get OMAC power, then go back, without ever fully changing. Besides, that doesn't explain her being able to resist Max's mental manipulation. That same buzzing in her head when she did that.

She's the new Beetle. I hope she is a lot more interesting than she seems like she's gonna be. I was hoping Ted Kord would get the power. He is sure more deserving of it.

OMAC

08-04-2005, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by georgeshabo
I thought the transformation was to show that she was an OMAC. I guess I should recheck that to see if I got it wrong.
The impression I got was that we are supposed to think that she was some sort of OMAC prototype, although if that was the case, Max would have known why his mind trinks didn't work on her in OMAC #3.

Doc Holiday

08-04-2005, 12:10 PM

You know, if Sasha is the new Blue Beetle, ,and she might well be, I wonder if she (or more precisely, DC) will keep the name "Blue Beetle." It is, if you think about it, one of the sillier-sounding names for a superhero. I wonder if they might go to "Scarab" or something like that. . .

NeoSamurai

08-04-2005, 12:40 PM

Sasha is an experiment of some sort.

Garyprime

08-04-2005, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by NeoSamurai
Sasha is an experiment of some sort.

By who?

NeoSamurai

08-04-2005, 01:14 PM

Good question. Omac 4 had someone mention that she was an experiment. I think it was Brother Eye talking to batman in reference to Sasha.

I could be wrong though.

WallyWest

08-05-2005, 03:42 AM

Appears in OMAC #4 that Sasha is an experiment and because of Black King is dead then the experiment has no sense. And that's why OMAC is trying to kill Sasha.

In my opinion Sasha is a Cyborg like Max Lord. That's why when she resist Max push on OMAC #2 or #3 Max did not kill her and found the issue interesting. It's like he gets surprise about his experiment "powers".

I am pretty sure that what Sasha is now cannot die because a shoot in the stomach. So, don's say good by to Sasha so soon guys.

In other hand, I was wondering about why crossover Flash-WonderWoman-Cheetah-Zoom was include in "Prelude to Infinite Crisis". If you remember in this crossover Wally and Diana talks about death penalty and Flash says he is agree with that as Barry was. And looks who has just appeared in Flash #224. Let's look what is going to happen in Flash #225 with the two Zooms and all the rogues, but it could be that Diana is not the only one that kill somebody this summer.

What I mean is that all this Infinite Crisis is about where is the limit? And it's going to be interesting to see which side takes each heroe.
For me this is very similar to what happen at the end of the Avengers: Galactic Storm saga. Each Avenger must choose between kill or not the Kree Supreme Intelligence, and two sides was created, with Capitan America as the defensor of "NOT TO KILL" and Iron Man / Sersi as the opposite. In this case Batman is going to be the "NOT TO KILL" and Wonder Woman the opposite. Let's have a look how they deal with Superman (don't forget he killed Doomsday).

OMAC

08-05-2005, 03:48 AM

Originally posted by WallyWest
Superman (don't forget he killed Doomsday).
Superman didn't kill Doomsday, but he tried to and he thought he had. However, Superman has killed before. He killed 3 outlaw Kryptonians from the Pocket Universe, who had wiped out a planet's population and therefore no justice system was around to punish them, so Superman punished them with the death penalty.

OMAC

08-05-2005, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by omac3000
Superman didn't kill Doomsday, but he tried to and he thought he had. However, Superman has killed before. He killed 3 outlaw Kryptonians from the Pocket Universe, who had wiped out a planet's population and therefore no justice system was around to punish them, so Superman punished them with the death penalty.
It is something he has regretted deeply since it happened, and has since added mental barriers to prevent himself from ever doing it again. As you will know, Max Lord has since broken down those mental barriers.

WallyWest

08-05-2005, 05:53 AM

That's what I mean. He is totally opposite to the death penalty even to put mental barriers on his own mind, so, what happen next?
Is he going to reconsider that after Diana's act? Is he going to be totally against Diana? I don't think so. He is not going to condemn her. Probably he will be the one that defend her against Batman.
I cannot wait 'til next Adventures.

OMAC

08-05-2005, 06:06 AM

mousefolk

08-06-2005, 12:47 AM

I just read Adv. of Superman #642 and WW #219 and I was pretty unimpressed, but I knew the Big Ending going in. As someone who has enjoyed Rucka's take on WW, sometimes immensely, other times, not so much, but this issue was billed as necessary for OMAC, but all you need to know is WW kills Lord, which OMAC tells you. Also the five artist detracted quite a bit. The repercussions of this will most definitely be more interesting than the actual event.

So: This issue, who for the next few months will fluxuate in value, isn't necessary to enjoy the OMAC mini.

xo
Kevin

NeoSamurai

08-08-2005, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by WallyWest
That's what I mean. He is totally opposite to the death penalty even to put mental barriers on his own mind, so, what happen next?
Is he going to reconsider that after Diana's act? Is he going to be totally against Diana? I don't think so. He is not going to condemn her. Probably he will be the one that defend her against Batman.
I cannot wait 'til next Adventures.

Superman's problem isn't going to be with what Diana did, but the fact that this wasn't the first time he was a loose cannon. I think the future superman stories are going to hit home how powerful Superman is and how much of a responsibility such power is for Clark. He thought Bruce could take him down which is why he gave him the kryptonite ring. It didn't work this time when Supes took bats out. Even wonderwoman couldn't do it.

I'm sure Clark's going to see Superman as more of a liability than ever before.

jsamb

08-08-2005, 04:38 PM

If Batman is really so angry w/ WW over the killing of Max Lord, then it just makes little sense. I mean, would Batman shun a cop who had to shoot someone in the line of duty (i.e. Jim Gordon?). No, of course not. And Max Lord was in control of something far more dangerous than a nuke, for crying out loud. It wasn't like WW was lazy or anything. Wasn't like she was the Punisher looking for vengence. She made a judgment call during a moment where she wasn't being battered by the most dangerous being on earth. Sure, sure, Batman would have found a way, MAYBE. But that's a lot to ask.

The only other option was to take Supes out, and he was pretty innocent in the matter.

NeoSamurai

08-08-2005, 05:09 PM

If Batman is really so angry w/ WW over the killing of Max Lord, then it just makes little sense. I mean, would Batman shun a cop who had to shoot someone in the line of duty (i.e. Jim Gordon?).

Batman's view is a bit more complex than that. As it stands, all masked heroes are vigilantes. They're private citizens that break the law in order to enforce justice that the law does not seem to emphasize. However, in doing such, Batman sees vigilantes as separated from true criminals by how much they as heroes limit themselves as operatives outside of society's social constructs. Police--as agents of the state-- are invested with the authority of the state to protect the state and his/her citizens. As they are authorized to act to take a life (when and if necessary), their action is less morally reprehensible. Cops who kill in the line of duty do so as recognized protectors of the public.

A vigilante is neither. Now, because of the power differentials between DCU vigilantes and cops, Batman views the job of policing "capes" as the job of other capes due to the nature of their vigilantism--but they leave the punishment and judgement to the State.

What Wonderwoman did, while appropriate--was not condoned by the state. In fact, as Wonderwoman is a recognized dignatary and a foreign national AND Max Lord was the head of a US government agency, her actions can (but probably won't) be construed as an act of War. On one level, her actions betrayed the public trust that vigilantes may have possessed, and on the other hand, her actions as a diplomat have been harmed to the brink of global conflict.

jsamb

08-09-2005, 11:52 AM

On the other hand, her actions could be construed as upholding that public trust.

I do agree with you regarding your take on Batman's take on vigilantism (that's an ugly sentence).

I also don't believe that Batman is always going to look the other way when a cop shoots someone. If it was just, and in the protection of others, then yeah, you're totally right. He wouldn't snub. But if it was questionable, he would investigate, make trouble, stuff like that (it's fairly established the GCPD is lousy w/ corruption and indifference).

How is what Wonder Woman did any different than a cop who had no other choice? Superman is, for all intents and purposes, a potential WMD, and certainly, if viewed as such, was being dangerously mishandled by Max Lord. It wasn't like he was ONLY robbing a bank or something "small."

NeoSamurai

08-09-2005, 11:54 AM

It then comes to the question of who had the right to judge Lord like Wonderwoman did.

Doc Holiday

08-09-2005, 11:57 AM

It looks to me like Diana is going to be replaced by Donna Troy as WW; thus a new #1 issue. Nonetheless, she should stand trial for her actions. I don't know if we'll see that, but she should.

Groovie Mann

08-09-2005, 02:21 PM

Hate to sound like I resist change but Diana dies, I don't pick up new WW. Return of Donna Troys okay and the only other thign with her I've read is judas Contract. not enough to sell me on Donna Troy, the "new" Wonder Woman.

jsamb

08-09-2005, 02:34 PM

But see, I don't think it's really an issue of "judging" Max. She wasn't reading the paper, then thinking about it, then going in and breaking his neck.

If there WAS a judgment, then it was really a snap (no pun intended) judgment. Take Max out or he takes me out.

Again, I don't think that even Batman would really be in the position to judge Diana. Besides, with the other, vintage JLA'ers wiping his mind and all, he's got far bigger fish to fry.

Also, with Brother I floating around, creating havok AND killing people, he REALLY doesn't have the right to come down on her.