Stuart Moore's A THOUSAND FLOWERS, part 9 - Death to the Comics Industry!

[MattBrady]

<center><a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Thousand_Flowers_index.htm"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/flowers_banner.jpg" width="475" height="75" border="0"></a></center>

<center>A THOUSAND FLOWERS</center>
<center>Comics, Pop Culture, and the World Outside</center>
<center>Installment 9</center>
<center>by Stuart Moore</center>

9. An Immodest Proposal

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/flowersGrick.jpg" width="266" height="148" border="0" align="right">Got a little behind on the column -- the holidays and everything -- so I’ve turned it over this week to my cousin, Jay “Garrick” Moore. Jay owns more comics than anyone alive, and I think you’ll find his take on the comics industry to be a breath of fresh air. Take it away, Jay!
--Stuart

**

Hello. I’ve spent the last 48 hours solid surfing the Internet, combing through the collective zeitgeist opinions of the gestalt consciousness, the ubermind, that is Comics. Tirelessly, without sleep, I’ve filtered every thought, every item of knowledge; everything there is to know about the comics industry into my Dorito-filled, Jolt-Cola-enhanced brain. And I’ve come to an inescapable conclusion, one that no one has ever thought of before. The comics industry has to die.

The signs are all around us. Despite the pathetic cries of “Hey -- things are lookin’ good!” from corporate suits desperate to keep their jobs, things suck. I don’t get anywhere near the buzz I got from Avengers when I was nine. Whose fault is that? Not mine, buddy. (And don’t tell me it’s nobody’s fault. Everything is somebody’s fault. And they’re going to pay.)

Only when the industry is dead -- only when everybody who robbed me of my childhood, every one of the big-salaried suits who forced me to grow up, everyone who raised the price of iron man to $2.99 which is more than i can afford from working at the glass factory where they don’t understand the wonders of sequential graphic literature -- only when every wonder-destroying one of them is dressed in urine-stained rags, holding a tin cup out in front of the bus station, can the comics medium be reborn. Only then will comics be reshaped by the true Keepers of the Flame (as Mister Stan Lee used to say), the men and women -- well, men anyway -- who hold comic characters brightest and closest in their hearts. The Fans.

But first we’ve got to go all Shinzon/Reman on their asses, as my stupid retarded Star-Trek-loving brother would say. So let’s look at the enemies, soldiers. This is war.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/aflightspanish.jpg" width="175" height="242" border="0" align="right">MARVEL COMICS. Marvel Comics has to go first. Their list of crimes is long, endless, and repetitive. First they drove John Byrne off Alpha Flight. Then they published way too many X-Men comics for me to afford with my babysitting money. Then they did something I don’t understand with distributors, that made Al at the comic shop really, really mad for a long time. He used to yell at me with that phone crooked under his neck, on hold for hours with something he called “Zeroes World.” Al used to be really, really skinny back then. Now he’s really, really fat. And his store doesn’t smell very good anymore.

It’s hard to believe -- even the Watcher would have trouble fitting it into the matrix of realities -- but now Marvel’s gotten even worse. Now they have that Bill Jemas guy who says mean things about everybody all the time. And Al at the comic shop says they don’t print over anymore, which kept him from making at least four sales of $2.95 comics last month. I don’t have the faintest idea what all that means, either.

The “ironic” thing is -- if I know what “ironic” means, and after reading 2,000 Marv Wolfman comics, I’d better! -- that Marvel’s comics are now better than they’ve been for a long time. I’m buying a lot of them. That makes Al really mad, and after reading everything bad about Marvel on the Internet, it makes me feel like a really bad person. So Marvel has to go first. That way I won’t be tempted to read all those comics anymore.

DC COMICS. I have a special soft spot in my head for DC, because they’re the comics I read when I was too little to read. I can still remember how angry I was when they fired Dick Dillin from Justice League -- after he’d drawn the book for fifteen years! -- right in the middle of a New Gods crossover. Sadly, that was merely a harbinger of bad things to come.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/Kara.jpg" width="175" height="209" border="0" align="left" alt="Kara! Why should a dog, a horse, a rat, have life, And thou no breath at all?">DC tried to be Marvel for a while there, with Crisis and everything, and when they killed Supergirl, I’m not ashamed to admit I cried. With rage. At those killers who would just kill my little Kara like that. Killers.

Today, a lot of people say different things about DC on the Internet -- which is confusing, because unlike with Marvel, they don’t all seem to say the same things. In fact, it’s almost like DC doesn’t tell people much about what they’re doing at all. It may surprise you to hear this from me, but I applaud their attempts to reach out to new audiences like little kids, girls who wear black, and collectors who know every detail of every Mister Terrific appearance. (Full disclosure: I fall into one of those categories. Guess which one!)

But for all of DC’s good works, they have one big problem they can’t seem to overcome: I don’t work there. It’s not fair, not at all. I love those characters much more than the editors and writers they have do -- even the lame ones, like Hawkgirl and Doctor Fate and Primal Force. But they won’t hire me. As Cyborg once said, “Maybe it’s cuz I’m Black.” (Except I’m not.)

So DC has to go. I can’t stand watching Geoff Johns get his greasy hands on Linda Park anymore, when I can’t.

EVERYBODY ELSE. You want to know where it’s at? The “bleeding edge”? The front lines of sequential picto-graphic culture? Alternative Comics. That’s what everybody says on the internet, and when it’s on the internet, it’s got to be right. Books like Love and Optics and Johnny the Homosexual Maniac and Kabuki Fur have only one problem -- they don’t get ordered by your average store because Al’s too busy ordering comics from Marvel (ugh -- see above) and DC (op cit). In fact, I’ve never even seen any of these “alternate” comics. But I hear they’re great.

So that’s why the comics industry has to die. Only when DC and Marvel and Image and that rich guy in Florida are gone, will we see a true renaissance of creative rebirth. Only when store owners like the “Simpsons comic book guy” -- not Al, he’s a victim of circumstance and he’s all right even if he does throw twelve-sided dice at me sometimes when I walk in, but real-life stereotypes that we can all hate without thinking -- only when all those guys are gone, out of business, and there’s no place to buy comics at all -- why, only then will the comics return. Like in a radioactive field after a nuclear war where nothing can grow for a hundred years, comics will sprout up like pretty flowers. With staples and that new-book smell. For no more than, say, a dollar a copy. Dollar-fifty if the cover’s shiny.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/supergirldroid.jpg" width="175" height="188" border="0" align="right" alt="Kara - my beautiful, beautiful Kara">And I promise you this: I’ll be the first one out there, sitting in the middle of the field, breathing in the radioactive air, clutching my brand-new copy of Kara Zor-El, the One True Supergirl to my ample male bosom. And as I savor every panel of its flat-colored, hand-lettered, crappy-papered magnificence, I’ll know one thing, deep in my heart: It was made for love, not money. It was written by someone who loves Kara -- maybe not as much as me, but still -- and who doesn’t care if he ever gets paid to be a writer. Then I’ll march right down to the offices of AardvarkFantaShelferly Inc., publishers of Kara Zor-El, and I’ll tell them, “I love comics. I love them more than anyone. Please hire me.” And if they can’t pay me at first, that’s OK. At least they won’t laugh at me and call AOL/Time Warner Security.

The best part of it all: everbody will be reading comics. I’ll be able to walk up to any kind of girl -- not just those ones who cry a lot and cut themselves with razors! -- lift my head up, and proudly say, “I read comics.” And she’ll know that’s cool. Because comics are alternative now.

So let’s start the revolution off right. We’re a few years late for the millennium, but that’s OK. I’ve printed up a great flag with a picture of Supergirl and the simple-but-incredibly-inspiring phrase “Comics. For Kara.” I started a thread about it on the Comicon boards and somebody made a suggestion to make it more “alternative.” He said the other side of the flag should show, in his words, “Maggie an Hopey doin it.” That sounds pretty darn good to me -- just get me the reference. We can do it! We can destroy comics all by ourselves! Who’s with me, dog? Who’s --

**

Uhh -- Stuart here again. I’m really sorry about Jay. He’s been bugging me for weeks about helping out with the column, and he knows so much about comics I figured, why not? Well…I guess now we know why not. This stuff is really better left to the professionals.

Apologies all around. Next week this column will be back to its normal self, as we take a look at the comics industry post-World-War II. And don’t worry about all that stuff Jay was saying about destroying comics. He’s much too busy surfing the internet to actually do anything.

**

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Creators/stuartwizphoto_f.jpg" width="110" height="113" align="right" alt="Stuart Moore">Stuart Moore’s quick plugs: Pick up issue #5 of ZENDRA: HEART OF FIRE, my epic science fiction series from Penny-Farthing Press; more info on the trade paperback of the first ZENDRA series can be found at <a href="http://www.pfpress.com" target="_blank">http://www.pfpress.com</a> .Then go to <a href="http://www.rocketcomics.com" target="_blank">http://www.rocketcomics.com</a> and <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000094" target="_blank"> here</a> for a look at LONE, launching in summer 2003 -- and visit my message boards at <a href="http://www.joequesada.com" target="_blank">http://www.joequesada.com</a> to discuss this column, or anything else interesting. See you in 14…

[Barry]

Making fun of comics fans. That's pretty original. Looking forward to the next column about Batman and his "partner" Robin.

[Sanjay Shah]

I love it, this is one of the funniest thing I've read... next to Action Comics issue #356, when the colorist miscolored Superman's costume and made him red and blue instead of blue and red, (I wrote DC a letter asking them to fire him and hire me instead)

[Ed Cunard]

Ok. That was blow-hot-coffee-out-my-nose funny. Damn you, Stuart. It hurts.

[Sean Walsh]

I love reading articles where the fans get bashed.

Because......y'know......it's not like the fans are the sole reason comic creators have work or anything...

[Sanjay Shah]

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:
<strong>Making fun of comics fans. That's pretty original. Looking forward to the next column about Batman and his "partner" Robin.</strong><hr></blockquote>

c'mon, it's funny, it's doesn't have to be original as long as it's entertaining

[Stuart Moore]

Before too many people get offended... :)

1. This article was triggered by reading one too many "the comics industry should DIE" articles/postings/rants. It's certainly not aimed at ALL fans. (But did I make you look?)

2. I think it makes fun of other parts of the comics industry, too.

3. It actually fits in with the last few columns, in a way. So it's not JUST me being mean-spirited -- there's a purpose here. ;)

Best,
Stuart

[Ed Cunard]

[quote]Originally posted by Sean Walsh:
<strong>I love reading articles where the fans get bashed.

Because......y'know......it's not like the fans are the sole reason comic creators have work or anything...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't say Stuart is bashing fans, per se, but like Jonathan Swift, he makes a valid argument: the industry won't be saved by one person's personal preferences.

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by Sean Walsh:
<strong>Because......y'know......it's not like the fans are the sole reason comic creators have work or anything...</strong><hr></blockquote>

So, you're taking this parody of an over the top, extreme comic fan personally, and finding it insulting, and not getting any other message from the column at all?

MattB

[linnen]

that was HYSTERICAL!! if you have to get on here and complain because you were "offended", then you are just going out of your way to find stuff to complain about.

thanks guys!! great column!

[LFKittsteiner]

This is so scary... because it´s TRUE. The Simpsons have the Comic Book Guy for a reason.

LFKO.

[Evan Cantrell]

Another great column! This was hilarious! The only way someone could be offended by this is if they are this guy.

[Callan]

Great column. Jay highlights one of the biggest challenges facing the industry today, retailers.
I do a lot of business travel and have been to many comic retail stores around the U.S. and it amazes me how much focus most retailers place on Marvel products and how little they place on other companies. I am not bashing Marvel here, they are putting out some great products in the last two years, but rather the poor business management of the retailers.
Most retailers make no attempt to cross market any inventory. I know of only a few stores (and I have been to 20 in the last 2 years) that actually cross product lines with their displays, (i.e., Bendis or Morrison are hot properties currently due to Spider-Man and X-Men so place their other work beside those products.) Cross market helps move back inventory and improve revenues and all other entertainment industries do it. Go to a video store and see how many bad movies are re-released every time any star get's hot or new editions of books are released when an author get's hot. This is what the industry needs to survive.
Retailers should be using the outside talent that Marvel, and DC, are using to push independent comics and an inventory of graphic novels and TPBs. With all the talent coming from non-mainstream publishers (Allred, Bendis, Rucka, Cho, etc.) it would be great help to the industry for retailers to actually try to run a business rather than try to make money from what was a hobby.

[Antisocial]

For those of you who haven't read it, Mystic #28 had one of the funniest takes on obsessive comic book fans. In an anything goes magical realm, this fanboy appeared, stopping anything he disagreed with from happening by criticizing it.

After Giselle defeated him, Skitter said, "I'm not sure but I sensed his thoughts before he left... I think you sent him back where he came from -- a sad place where nothing changes, and every fresh idea or event is just a rehash of what's been done already."

Tony Bedard is one of the best writers that isn't a big name... yet.

[basement dweller]

Loved the article, funny as hell. Especally the dig at Jemas.

" Now they have that Bill Jemas guy who says mean things about everybody all the time."

Classic

[Barry]

[quote]Originally posted by Sanjay Shah:
<strong>

c'mon, it's funny, it's doesn't have to be original as long as it's entertaining</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was?

Gail Simone did something like this a few years ago and it managed to be both funny and yet somehow respectful. Unlike this...

[Grendel Prime]

I hadn't realized that Stuart Moore had left his position at Marvel to become the Devil's Advocate.

Touché.

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:
<strong>It was? </strong><hr></blockquote>

And again...

So, you're taking this parody of an over the top, extreme comic fan personally, and finding it insulting, and not getting any other message from the column at all?

MattB

[Michael P]

That was beautiful. I think I might cry. (And not in the "they-killed-my-Kara" way)

[gOgIver]

Are comics like cigarettes? I'm hooked on comics. I know people who said "when cigarettes reach 5 bucks a pack, I'm quiting!" Are any comic fans out there saying "when comics are $5.00 each (monthly) I'm quiting." ?????????

The thought has crossed my mind. Still the basement is $2.25 as of today.

[Teucer]

Maybe I'm just nieve but I actually thought that was his brother...and I thought it was friking hilarious. Best line "I’ll be able to walk up to any kind of girl -- not just those ones who cry a lot and cut themselves with razors! "

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Thanks for that. I'm sure Gail's column was funny as sh*t too but doesn't meen you need to run down this work of art :)

Keep it up Stuart. btw, this is my first post though I've been reading for a long time. Just couldn't not say thanks !! :D

[Barry]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>

And again...

So, you're taking this parody of an over the top, extreme comic fan personally, and finding it insulting, and not getting any other message from the column at all?

MattB</strong><hr></blockquote>

Pretty much, yeah. Got a problem with that?

[BoyWonder]

That was very funny.

I never got this rubbish about 'how the comics industry should die'. I think I read a column by Matt Fracton over on comicbookresources about the death of the industry. Completely stupid.

If I don't like the direction a book I like is going, I will complain because I hope that someone with authority is listening, but my wallet is my weapon at the end of the day. If the comic companies are all producing bad comics, then I'll vote with my feet and buy more DVDs instead.

[Jamal Y. Igle]

It's very rare when I actually laugh outloud at anything I read online, other that Steve Case resigning from AOL Time Warner. Stuart, That was hysterical and very dead on.

[Gail Simone]

I thought it was funny!

Gail

[OM]

[quote]Jay "Garrick" Moore sez:
<strong>I can still remember how angry I was when they fired Dick Dillin from Justice League -- after he’d drawn the book for fifteen years! -- right in the middle of a New Gods crossover. Sadly, that was merely a harbinger of bad things to come.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Parody, satire or pure ignorance aside, for the record Dillin wasn't fired off of JLA. He died.

Stuart, you should know better...

[Mr_Roboto]

[quote]Originally posted by BoyWonder:
<strong>That was very funny.

I never got this rubbish about 'how the comics industry should die'. I think I read a column by Matt Fracton over on comicbookresources about the death of the industry. Completely stupid.

If I don't like the direction a book I like is going, I will complain because I hope that someone with authority is listening, but my wallet is my weapon at the end of the day. If the comic companies are all producing bad comics, then I'll vote with my feet and buy more DVDs instead.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Funny column.


However, sarcasm aside, I think some people want to see the mainstream American artform of comics die, because they dont see how things will ever be open for change otherwise.


The racks are choked with superhero titles right now...hell, now superhero titles choke out other superhero titles, look at the numbers for pretty much every new superhero related titled (not featuring some 60 year old recognizable icon) and the numbers are crap.


I neednt go into the lack of numbers for titles NOT of the superhero genre.

Nobody really knows what its going to take to change things though, everyone has ideas, and everyone thinks they're right.


I think once most fans spend a good portion of their cash on Ultimate Spiderman, X Men, The Ultimates, countless X spinoffs, and occasional Punisher, Superman, Batman. They have little left over for new titles, especially when most these titles have to price themselves at 2.99 a pop to even have a chance at striking even. However, I may be wrong there, who knows.


I think DC should be praised though, for the titles coming out of Vertigo, and Wildstorm. Yes, they are a mainstream company, but despite not setting financial records with many of the titles coming out of those imprints, they push them anyway, because they know the importance of a diverse lineup. And its being recognized outside the comic community, in magazines like The Face and such.

[lil bad boy]

It's easy to write off people who are critical of the industry as over-the-top, obsessive fans. I think it's human nature to tune people out when you don't agree with them. I also think a lot of comic book pros confuse doing their best with doing a good job, and are a little thin-skinned when it comes to criticism. Instead of acting smugly and ignoring the elephant in the living room, they should be trying to get that kind of passionate response for doing something right instead of doing something wrong. Call it what you will, but there are a lot of people who aren't happy with the current state of the industry, and writing them off as nerds doesn't solve any problems.

[Warren Ellis]

I must write SUPERGIRL now.

-- W

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:
<strong>Pretty much, yeah. Got a problem with that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope. Just curious.

MattB

[Jeremy Williams]

You know, in its "patheticness" it was actualy touching.

I`m telling you i didn`t care about Kara, but after reading about this i do. :cool:

[Stuart Moore]

"...Parody, satire or pure ignorance aside, for the record Dillin wasn't fired off of JLA. He died.

Stuart, you should know better..."

I do. Matt left off a JLA panel I sent along, showing the Leaguers mourning a dead Superman, which might have helped with the joke. (But it's more than worth it because Matt came up with Jay's "logo," which made me laugh out loud.)

Best,
Stuart

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by Warren Ellis:
<strong>I must write SUPERGIRL now.

-- W</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't know if I've ever even seen an actual issue of Supergirl. But if Warren Ellis wrote it, I'd probably pick it up.

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>I don't know if I've ever even seen an actual issue of Supergirl. But if Warren Ellis wrote it, I'd probably pick it up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Personally, I think Warren should be barred from writing any more comics until Ministry of Space #3 hits the shelves. There's a lot of space history buffs on sci.space.history who are pissed at having to wait so goddamn long to see whether their theories about where the Limeys got all the gold to put Von Braun to work came from.

Enough's enough, Warren. If the book isn't going to see print, at least tell us where the cash came from!

[quote]Originally posted by Gail Simone:
<strong>I thought it was funny!</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Except for the Dick Dillin bit, it actually was quite satirical. Although I have to admit Barry does have balls to stand up for his opinion like that. Especially when Matty assumes his "stare-you-down" posting tone.

Kinda reminds me of me :-P

[Mark Dominy]

I "got" it Didn't think it was particularly funny...at least until I realized - a grown man who reads comics...making fun of other comics readers.

Heh heh. The irony is freaking hilarious.

[William Coate]

While some of you found this insulting and others felt it was quite funny. I find it kind of sad.

Why? For the most part it is nearly true and many people are sick and tired of the kind of crap being published today. Why won't it just die already?

C'Mon comics are getting closer and closer to 5 bucks. Who is going to buy them then? I know I won't!

Someone also mentioned the fact that some industry professionals do a job and they don't do they're best job at it. For the most part that is true. In what other industry can you get away with late issues or doing a book then suddenly stop doing a book because of whatever circumstance?

Joe Maduiera, J. Scott Campbell, Kurt Busiek, and soooo many others are guilty of destroying or at least laying the groundwork for the eventual destruction of the comic book industry.

I actually kind of look forward to it!

Hope to see you on the other side.

William Coate

[Grendel Prime]

[quote]Originally posted by Warren Ellis:
<strong>I must write SUPERGIRL now.
-- W</strong><hr></blockquote>

You already did!

But then the transvestite stormtroopers from DC/AOL/T/W smashed into your uptown loft in the middle of the night, pulling you groggy, naked, and screaming from your bed. They wiped any memory of that work from your mind with a neurotoxic nanotech enema, and replaced those particular engrams with images of Brian Michael Bendis in drag. Every printing of the Warren Ellis cyberlesbian Supergirl epic were systematically hunted down, shredded, and burned. The only surviving copy is currently held in the secret vault of a certain paranoid antisocial multi-millionaire.

Damn it, I want my Planetary!

[jhues]

Damn! That was definitely funnier than anything I've written!

Maybe I should retire.

[aric_dacia]

[quote]
<strong>I can still remember how angry I was when they fired Dick Dillin from Justice League -- after he’d drawn the book for fifteen years! -- right in the middle of a New Gods crossover. Sadly, that was merely a harbinger of bad things to come.
</strong><hr></blockquote>


Um, didn't Dick Dillin *die* instead of being fired? I defintely recall that George Perez stated he was uncomfortable following Dick on the book after his death but felt that he couldn't pass the chance to do the JLA.

Barry

[SPEEDBOY]

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:
<strong>Making fun of comics fans. That's pretty original. Looking forward to the next column about Batman and his "partner" Robin.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Such hard work is put into a well thought out piece of satire. It’s so sad that it’s wasted on those people who need to hear it the most. :(

SPEEDBOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aaron Weisbrod]

Funniest... column... ever...
and a nice change of pace.

Excellent job! :D

Still laughing,
Aaron Weisbrod

[Justin M. Campbell]

Funny as hell. It was also funny when Mark Millar wrote it. Seriously, a lot of the hardliners (Peter David called them WETRATS when he did Aquaman, but I can't for the life of me remember what that stands for) need to loosen up a little bit, relax, and realize, continuity or no, a good story is a good story is a good story.
But, that said:

"Do I have to explain the audience principle to you again? If you insult and accost them, then we have no audience."
Holden McNeill

[Erik K]

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:
<strong>

Pretty much, yeah. Got a problem with that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No problem at all. Nice to see someone proudly proclaiming "I take the Comic Book Guy style character personally." It's like me taking offense when people make fun of incredibly handsome geniuses with girls hanging off of them :) Some things just hit closer to home for some people.

[qnetter]

[quote]Originally posted by aric_dacia:
<strong>


Um, didn't Dick Dillin *die* instead of being fired? I defintely recall that George Perez stated he was uncomfortable following Dick on the book after his death but felt that he couldn't pass the chance to do the JLA.

Barry</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tune your satire-o-meter.

The fact that Fanboy Prime can wander around so sure of his opinion for so many years while being obliviously wrong about the underlying fact *is* the satiric point.

Clue-phone. It's for you.

[Starsky_Hutch76]

This "the industry NEEDS to die" is new to me. What I usually hear is the industry is GONNA die and there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence against that.

There's one part that I don't get. It seems odd to make fun of people complaining about the price of comics these days. That's sort of like standing on the deck of the Titanic and yelling "pussy!" at the people who jump overboard.

I know I can't be the only fan who now sees a day looming ahead when he won't be buying anymore. WHen all books are $2.99 or more, I'm gone. Others of you may have higher cut-off points, but I'm sure you've at least got one. Sure, there will be some people willing to pay any price to get their monthly fix of comics, but will there be enough of them to prop up the industry? Some have said it'll have to move to an all TPB industry, but that seems like even more of a selective market.

And y'all really shouldn't laugh at poor Jay. He worked so hard on his <A HREF="http://monkeyalliance1.homestead.com/files/The_Flash_Jay_Garrick_2.jpg">costume </A>for conventions.

[Taylor Porter]

I'm not one of those folks that thinks the industry needs to die, but I do think it needs to change. I'm not saying that I have all the answers, or that I know exactly the way it should change, but I do think some change is necessary. I don't think the downward spiral is going to reverse itself just because we all sat around with our fingers crossed. And if the industry DID die, it wouldn't be the end of the medium. I've got a lot of friends that draw their own comics that don't even know what a "Marvel" is. Again, I'm not saying the death of the industry is a good idea, but I do know that my love is of the medium, and not the industry. This attitude may get me mocked by Mr. Moore, but that's the way I feel.

[Olsmobile]

[quote] There's one part that I don't get. It seems odd to make fun of people complaining about the price of comics these days. That's sort of like standing on the deck of the Titanic and yelling "pussy!" at the people who jump overboard.

<hr></blockquote>

LOL Now that's funny.

[mr mainstream]

Although mildly amusing, it's a bit lazy taking the easy shot at the nerdy comic reading stereotype.......again ! :rolleyes:

I'm as guilty of playing the comic geek as much as the next comic geek, but having our "odd" behaviour pointed out to us for the millionth time is boring.

And why is it nearly always the comic book writers who start the nerd bating ?
Almost all of them were once ordinary comic collecting over obsessive spotty youths, yet once they reach the lofty perch of comic book writer......they can't wait to tell us, the people who pay their wages, how stupid we all are !

Just because some of us actually care about our chosen hobby, the characters, the events and history, does that mean it's open season and it's OK to stick the boot in ?

Would the writers prefer it if we didn't care ?

On to another point.....

after reading Stuarts piece, I feeling that strange sensation again. The sensation of having alternative/indiependant comics being shoved down my throat again.

I've heard it a thousand times......superhero bad/ alternative good.

Except my experience doesn't bare that out.
Sure, I bought Sandman, and yes, in the beginning it was great.....and then, like so many indie/alternative comics....it stuck it's head up it's backside and decided it would appeal to a couple of hundred readers and give the finger to the suckers who wanted story instead of statement.

I lasted till issue 32...then sold the lot for cash.
With the cash, I bought the entire Byrne/Romita Jr run of Iron Man.....and loved every page of it !

I do still dip my toe into the indie/alternative pool, and some of it ain't bad. But if I have to read about someones personal story of how they couldn't get a girlfriend when they were young and how it affected their later life one more time, I will scream !

[Rawle Austin]

Is that Alpha Flight cover from a recent trade paperback reprinting John Byrne's issues?

If not, have these issues ever been reprinted in Graphic novel form? If anyone knows please let me know. They were very cool stories.

Thanks

Rawle

[LFKittsteiner]

[quote] Originally posted by William Coate:
Joe Maduiera, J. Scott Campbell, Kurt Busiek, and soooo many others are guilty of destroying or at least laying the groundwork for the eventual destruction of the comic book industry.
<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn´t put Busiek in the same bag with Madureira and Campbell. His mercury poisoning made it impossible for him to put Astro City on a regular basis, and he could "only" write Avengers and Thunderbolts; because AC required a different frame of mind, one that required more concentration.

And Campbell is slowly coming back. Madureira is the only guy without an excuse.

[quote] Originally posted by Rawle Austin:
Is that Alpha Flight cover from a recent trade paperback reprinting John Byrne's issues?

If not, have these issues ever been reprinted in Graphic novel form?
<hr></blockquote>

Some really cool TPB have been coming out of Spain lately. That one is from Editorial Forum, the longest-running publisher of Marvel Comics in Spain. I don´t know if they were the ones behind the Essential Tomb Of Dracula, you know, the one that Marvel screwed-up, saying that they couldn´t correct the art. However, in Spain, those stories were reprinted in a extremely good-looking way.

LFKO.

[gwangung]

Heh.

The comment about SANDMAN makes Stuart's point perfectly.

Heh heh heh.

It's such a funny column because Stuart hits his target so perfectly, and the target complains USING THE SAME BEHAVIOR that's getting lampooned.

And the REALLY pathetic thing is that the industry is dying, but the changes that need to be made are NOT in content, but in distribution and delivery--and those changes are gonna fought by the established audience because those changes are going to entail some alteration in traditional modes of delivery [anthologies, dropping of color and so forth....].

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by mr mainstream:
<strong>Would the writers prefer it if we didn't care ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think the writers would prefer it if the audience opened their horizons more, as a whole, and supported other genres with as much enthusiasm and passion as they do heroes, resultng in a wider genre available within which writers can write and make a living.

But your point about the stereotypical alternative (leaning toward "art") books is well said and well taken. I would say there's a happy middle, and Kim Thompson hit it in his editorial at TCJ that Stuart cited a column or so back...

<a href="http://www.tcj.com/3_online/e_thompson_071499.html" target="_blank">http://www.tcj.com/3_online/e_thompson_071499.html</a>

MattB

[Michael P]

[quote]Originally posted by mr mainstream:
<strong>And why is it nearly always the comic book writers who start the nerd bating ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe because they're tired of the nerds baiting them?

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by gwangung:
<strong>--and those changes are gonna fought by the established audience because those changes are going to entail some alteration in traditional modes of delivery [anthologies, dropping of color and so forth....].</strong><hr></blockquote>

anthologies - maybe, they've always been an extremely hard sell in the mainstream, and no one can seem to make the format work with costumes, but more regular genres? Maybe.

As for dropping color, I can't think of one medium (or industry, for that matter) where a majority of consumers willingly embraced something that was made in a manner to purposely not utilize the technology said consumer knows is available. I could be wrong, but I can't rememeber any...

MattB

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by gwangung:
<strong>
And the REALLY pathetic thing is that the industry is dying, but the changes that need to be made are NOT in content, but in distribution and delivery....</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree. Distribution and delivery do need to be fixed, but it matters little if all this means is that more people have access to Iron Man, or whatever. I think we've got a long way to go, as far as content is concerned.

[mr mainstream]

Matt,

Lot's has been said, and some of it is spot on, about the current trend of superhero comics.
It has faults. Some are being addressed, some aren't.

I also agree that comic book readers should widen their horizons when it comes to the genre's they read. But.......

I've lost count of the times I have started reading an indiependent/alternative comic, only to spend an eternity waiting for the next issue to arrive....if it ever does !
My shelves are littered with unfinished runs of indie comics, some of which were much enjoyed, yet I know they will never be continued.

A lot of self published/self edited alternative comics suffer because there is no one there to say "that stinks" to the writer, when a "that stinks" is rightfully needed.

Black and white art.
I can live with it, and sometimes prefer it.
But colour will always win the fans over.
Can you imagine wanting to go back to watching a fireworks display in black and white, after you've seen it in colour ?

TPB's are a godsend. If a indie series is really any good, it will be brought out in a collected form.
This is helpful because alternative comics have a sketchy publishing schedule, as I have already stated.

The indie/alternative comics genre has a lot of problems, yet we rarely see them subjected to the same hammering that the mainstream publishers get.

As for the current state of the comics industry.....

I think it's fantastic at the moment.
I imagine a lot of people have forgotten how bad it was during the nineties !

[Slangword]

Mildly amusing, but I have to ask: Are there really enough people like that out there to make writing this sort of thing worthwhile? It's like writing something satirizing people who don't let their picture be taken for fear of losing their souls -- there aren't very many of them, and you're not going to change their minds by making fun of them. It seems you're just indulging the fact you feel superior to them. I trust Mr. Moore knows better than to expect someone to see the light based on this article, so is there really a point OTHER than the humor and feeling superior?


Full Disclosure: I like all sorts of comics, including super-hero comics. I think that people doing super-hero comics should do them well, which includes respecting the stories created by the former writers and artists of those characters. If they can't do that, they should work on a different character or, preferably, create their own.

--Scott Rowland

[GregNIMBUS]

Not sure if this has been asked yet, but does anyone know where this Alpha Flight image came from?

Thanks!

-Greg
<a href="http://www.nimbuscolor.com" target="_blank">http://www.nimbuscolor.com</a>

[Jesse McCann]

We are not amused. For your information, it took all of 1/25 of a millisecond to deduce that Mr. Moore's "OP/ED" was nothing more than another attempt to belittle the true backbone of the comics industry; namely, the hobbyist.

I grow so weary of the stereotyping. And as a hefty gentleman with a ponytail (much like the incomparable Warren Ellis,) I find the constant comparison to the Simpsons Comic Guy hackneyed at best. Ha ha. (Yawn.)

Rest assured, Mssrs Moore and Brady will be getting an official letter of complaint drafted by myself and the equally insulted members of my Friday evening D&D detail painting roundtable as soon as I gather all seven signatures.

[Zonker]

[quote]Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
<strong> So it's not JUST me being mean-spirited -- there's a purpose here. ;)

</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you had been mean-spirited, I suppose you would now at least be able to laugh at most of these responses from people who...just...don't...get...it.

As it is, I imagine all you feel is a little bit of sadness, as do I.

Hang in there,
Z.

[Mr_Roboto]

[quote]Originally posted by mr mainstream:
<strong>


after reading Stuarts piece, I feeling that strange sensation again. The sensation of having alternative/indiependant comics being shoved down my throat again.

I've heard it a thousand times......superhero bad/ alternative good.
</strong><hr></blockquote>


They're not saying superheroes are bad, and indie equates perfection. HOWEVER, superhero titles compile the top 100 spots right now. If every indie title automatically gets crapped on by the retailer and fan, its going to force genuine talent to go elswhere. Not to mention, the lack of diversity in our market makes the mainstream American comic industry the joke of the publishing world.

The european, asian and japanese markets are THRIVING right now, they're diverse, well distributed and not looked down upon as a result by the overall population.


Here, comics are considered literature of the nerds.


And, for the most part, its true.

My wife wouldnt pick up a comic, and to this day avoids them, however, I put in front of her a Preacher trade, or Blue Monday, and she actually reads thru the entire thing in shock that these books actually exist. To further prove the arguement, not ONE of my friends read comics, it isnt untill I put in front of them something like Invisibles, or Vertigo Pop that they sit down and actually thumb thru a comic.

There really are some fantastic superhero books out there...but there is MUCH more than that as well.

This ofcourse will fall on deaf ears, and the resident Newsarama Nerd Patrol (NNP) will pounce on their keyboards boycotting this and any post that calls them out.

[jamesmith]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>
As for dropping color...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Black-&-white sells better outside the comic shop.

[Tue Sorensen]

This was a fun column. To an extent, I'm part of the type of fan being satirized, but I'm not above self-irony. Still...

[quote]Originally posted by lil bad boy:
<strong>It's easy to write off people who are critical of the industry as over-the-top, obsessive fans. I think it's human nature to tune people out when you don't agree with them. I also think a lot of comic book pros confuse doing their best with doing a good job, and are a little thin-skinned when it comes to criticism. Instead of acting smugly and ignoring the elephant in the living room, they should be trying to get that kind of passionate response for doing something right instead of doing something wrong. Call it what you will, but there are a lot of people who aren't happy with the current state of the industry, and writing them off as nerds doesn't solve any problems.</strong><hr></blockquote>I completely agree.

[quote]Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong>This "the industry NEEDS to die" is new to me. What I usually hear is the industry is GONNA die and there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence against that.</strong><hr></blockquote>Also true. And I pay pretty good attention. There's not a lot of people saying that the industry has to die. But, I can appreciate that a satirical column takes the ominously gloomy view that the industry is in a rut to what the columnist probably considers its logical ultimate consequence. Can't say I quite agree that's what it is, though.

[quote]Originally posted by Antisocial:
<strong>For those of you who haven't read it, Mystic #28 had one of the funniest takes on obsessive comic book fans. In an anything goes magical realm, this fanboy appeared, stopping anything he disagreed with from happening by criticizing it.
After Giselle defeated him, Skitter said, "I'm not sure but I sensed his thoughts before he left... I think you sent him back where he came from -- a sad place where nothing changes, and every fresh idea or event is just a rehash of what's been done already."</strong><hr></blockquote>Now THIS is something I *would* like to object to. This portrayal of the fanboy is ignorant, untrue and bordering on the malicious. We are criticizing the new stuff because, in our opinion, there was *more complexity*, *better craft* and *more meaningful* stories in the old days. It's not a question of nostalgia; it's a question of which kinds of comics you like. The mainstream superhero genre is getting diluted these days, losing its cohesion and classic tenets. Those who liked mainstream superheroes in their purest form - the form which Stan Lee built the modern mainstream superhero genre on - are no longer getting their fix, and this is why they/we are complaining. To say that we're in "a sad place where nothing changes, and every fresh idea or event is just a rehash of what's been done already" is comparable to when right-wing people ludicrously explain away left-wing people's views by saying that left-wing people all have personal problems and inferiority complexes.

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by Michael P:
<strong>Maybe because they're tired of the nerds baiting them?</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Nah, they're just trying to prove they're master baiters.

[littlewolvie]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>

I think the writers would prefer it if the audience opened their horizons more, as a whole, and supported other genres with as much enthusiasm and passion as they do heroes, resultng in a wider genre available within which writers can write and make a living.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...and I have absolutely no problem with other genres. I just don't see why it has to replace the existing super-hero genre. Can't both live happily together? As far as I'm concerned, writers and artists can try as much new stuff as they want. I might even pick up some of it. When George Perez, the ultimate super-hero artist tries something new with Crimson Plague or Solus I don't simply pass it by because it doesn't have spandex wearing people in it. What I don't agree with is when a company changes the essence of their characters and wants to turn the super-hero genre into an alternative genre. Create an alternative line if you want, heck, create multiple ones if you want, but don't change the essence of books and characters that have been going on for years or even decennia. Sure, you can bring up the argument that stuff isn't selling well anymore. And while some of those radical changes have led to short term sales increasements, it didn't last for most titles. What I've noticed, and I don't think you can deny that, is that a lot of longtime fans, those same people who may have kept the super-hero genre alive for many years, are unhappy with the current state of their favourite genre. It's easy to say that they are wrong and that they are a bunch of whiners always complaining about everything. But in a certain way, I think they have a point. Maybe I'm part of that (rather large) group of people. Who knows?

[Academic]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr_Roboto:
<strong>
The european, asian and japanese markets are THRIVING right now, they're diverse, well distributed and not looked down upon as a result by the overall population.

Here, comics are considered literature of the nerds.

And, for the most part, its true.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

For the most part, that's wrong.

Europe and Asia (Japan being part of Asia) are missing two key components that have dogged North American comics for half a century: Seduction of the Innocent, by Dr. F. Wertham, and the subsequent hearings by the US Senate into causes of juvenile delinquency.

Before anyone gets off on a rant: I've read Seduction of the Innocent. Given the comics at the time, and the psychology of the moment, Wertham was right to publish such a treatice on the comic industry. The only thing wrong was the way it was handled in the United States.

Superheroes weren't able to handle the post-war world, and (like film) many top comics were using other genres like crime and horror stories. Wertham, the hearings and comics' own Comic Code Authority shut down crime stories and horror stories because they were deemed "unfit for children."

That's the key word: children.

It took a decade for comics to begin appealing to adults again, and even then it was done through "underground" and "independent" comics - not the main publishers. The main publishers only responded to that in the eighties with lines like Epic and Vertigo.

American comics are still projected to the American public -- through television and film -- as bought off the rack by kids at the local convenience store before being tossed out by their parents.

There's a television episode of the Steven Spielberg anthology program of the eighties (forget the name) with Mark Hamill where he plays a guy who refuses to give up the things of his childhood and becomes a poor bum who eventually reaps his rewards at an auction of the items other people (rich from their regular endeavors) buy to recapture their childhoods.

Nerds come into it because adults aren't meant to enjoy children's things. It's an abberation, just as the American media likes to make it a private joke when parents horde toys and sell them on e-bay.

Asia, in particular, has never made this distinction between kids and adults with its manga. There are adult manga titles, there are kids manga titles, and both are perfectly acceptable in public.

It's only in America, when the mainstream culture of Hollywood says so, do adults feel not guilty about showing their devotion to childhood icons like Batman and Spider-Man.

That's slowly changing as DC and Marvel heroes have their icons on t-shirts and the like. (Here we have a nuber of stores that specialize in superhero merchandise outside of comics, and stores that mix it with rock merchandise.) Of course, that's not going to sell comics -- at least not in the short term and not (as Stuart's great article at the beginning of this thread points out) as long as comic fans are seen as devoted zombies willing to take the abuse of people like Comic Book Guy.

[gwangung]

Black and white art.
I can live with it, and sometimes prefer it.
But colour will always win the fans over.

Well, that's the POINT. We're not talking about fans; we're talking about selling books. When we're discussing about changing distribution patterns and expanding the audience, we are talking, perforce, about selling to non-fans. And what they want, and where they buy it, are NOT necessarily what fans want and where fans buy it. Folks have got to understand that.

I disagree. Distribution and delivery do need to be fixed, but it matters little if all this means is that more people have access to Iron Man, or whatever.

Politely disagree. The basic problem is that comics are simply not available to a wider audience. They're constrained, for the most part, to the direct sales market, which has many fewer outlets than what was available in the past and has many fewer outlets than what is currently available now. Solve the distribution problem and you're well on your way to solving content problem (a simple matter of free market economics). Trying to institute content changes now is putting the cart before the horse.

[aric_dacia]

[quote]Originally posted by qnetter:
<strong>

Tune your satire-o-meter.

The fact that Fanboy Prime can wander around so sure of his opinion for so many years while being obliviously wrong about the underlying fact *is* the satiric point.

Clue-phone. It's for you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dear qnetter:

Being rude is oh so easy on the internet, isn't it? You just type your snippy little reply and press "add reply" and oooooooh, you get tingly and just wait to see your snideness in print on the internet. Excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. Did you jump all over the other guy who posted a similar comment before mine? Miss it, if you did. Do I know you? Don't think so. And if there was satire involved in suggesting that Dick was fired when he actually died, then gosh darn it, I still don't find it funny. Not that it bothered me in the first place -- I was just suggesting that the writer was misinformed. Silly me.

The thing that annoys me most about the 'net is how it gives every self-important jerk free license to insult others, while doing their best (or is it worst?) David Spade imitation.

Loser-phone. It's for you.

[mr mainstream]

I've long thought that some comics big wigs would love all comics to be monthly episodes of Shakespear.
Then us "moronic" superhero fans would be educated in the ways of taste and decency of "proper" writing.

I don't know why they have such notions ?
Comics have always been about action, crime, western, war, romance, heroes, horror etc...

They are meant to be easy to digest.
They are meant to be "throw away" and cheap.
They are meant to be a cheap thrill.
That's all comics are.

I'm sure some comics writers are secretly ashamed that they have sunk to the depths of writing "childish" four colour fiction.
That's why they have to drone on about the nerdishness of your super hero comics fan.
It's an easy way of taking out their frustrations.

[KET]

[quote]Originally posted by Academic:
<strong>Europe and Asia (Japan being part of Asia) are missing two key components that have dogged North American comics for half a century: Seduction of the Innocent, by Dr. F. Wertham, and the subsequent hearings by the US Senate into causes of juvenile delinquency.</strong><hr></blockquote>


....and this is wrong-headed thinking as well. The current anemic state of the North American comics market has almost NOTHING to do with the affects Wertham's ancient treatice had on the form in the 50s and 60s. It's the perception that the comics industry, as it stands TODAY, isn't really that interested in expanding the readership. Instead, they just continue to shake down whoever's still around for loose change.


Publishers and so-called 'creative types' should stop relying on this excuse for their collected ineptitude in reaching potential generations of new readers.


[quote]<strong>Superheroes weren't able to handle the post-war world, and (like film) many top comics were using other genres like crime and horror stories. Wertham, the hearings and comics' own Comic Code Authority shut down crime stories and horror stories because they were deemed "unfit for children."

That's the key word: children.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, that's the guise moralists like to use when pointing out THEIR OWN paranoias....."Ooooh, oooh, think of the children!"

Reality check: most North American children today no longer BUY comics. Doesn't matter what type of comics they are. Period.


KET

[KET]

[quote]Originally posted by Warren Ellis:
<strong>I must write SUPERGIRL now.

-- W</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think you SHOULD, too. If for nothing else, so that Peter David can write a column deriding your efforts, just like you once did for HIM. :)

The ironic thing about Stuart's "proposal" is that it would have been much funnier seven years ago. However, SUPERGIRL is among only three DC monthlies published which showed any POSITIVE SALES GROWTH for January. In fact, SUPERGIRL is among the only FIVE DC monthlies which showed positive sales growth for the LAST SIX MONTHS.

The other ironic thing is that DC seemed SO QUICK to wield the axe on this title, when the likes of HARLEY QUINN and THE TITANS have been steadily losing far more readers. Seems like there's a story there still waiting to be told....

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by gwangung:
<strong> I disagree. Distribution and delivery do need to be fixed, but it matters little if all this means is that more people have access to Iron Man, or whatever.

Politely disagree. The basic problem is that comics are simply not available to a wider audience. They're constrained, for the most part, to the direct sales market, which has many fewer outlets than what was available in the past and has many fewer outlets than what is currently available now. Solve the distribution problem and you're well on your way to solving content problem (a simple matter of free market economics). Trying to institute content changes now is putting the cart before the horse.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm still not convinced. There seems to be an attitude that all we have to do is get people to notice comics the way they are, and they'll love them. But so many people have stopped reading comics already. Even factoring in the decline in outlets (which is significant), there are a lot of people who know exactly where to get their comics, but just don't want to. Ten years ago, comics used to sell in the millions every once in a while. They can't ALL have been speculators. There were many thousands of people reading comics that stopped, just because they thought they sucked. If we make more comics better, with stories that aren't rehashing the same old stuff for decades, we can get those thousands of people back.

[taintedlunch]

Reading this I was reminded of the classic SNL skit where William Shatner went off on Trekkies...

Are comics fans deluded enough to think that they (oops maybe I should say "we") are not geeks? Get real. Look in the mirror. You're wearing a Green Lantern t-shirt for God's sake! What do you expect? I've been to Wizard World Chicago several times and I non-scientifically estimate that 95% of the people there are nerds.

If you can't take the occassional ribbing, then either buy GQ and some Kenneth Cole or move to a country where geeks are looked upon as gods, 'cause ladies and gents, America ain't it. And if this nation has become so namby-pamby that we can't make fun of nerds, then, by God, I don't want to live here any more.

Here's a better suggestion: RELAX

Do comics writers have reason to make fun of fans? Of course they do. They expect creators to increase readership 4 billion percent while simulatneously keeping their icons intact as they were when they were kids. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Our society is changing, and comics must change with them. As Warren Ellis put it, "change or die." Let's all give comic creators the room to experiment with our heroes without us jumping down their throats! I mean, seriously, how many times can Kang attack the earth and get defeated by the Avengers before it becomes ludicrous? It's time for our heroes to change; we have to let them.

If you're a purist and like your superhero comics the way they are (or were), there are literally dozens of books you can read, and for the most part are done pretty well, but don't be surprised if next month it's revealed that Catwoman is a hermaphrodite. This new era of comics is all about change. Go with it.

And if you are a nerd, bless you. Continue being one. Wear that damn custom-made Rom armor if you want. Wear it and flaunt it. If a someone (like me or newsrama columnist, for example) takes a jab at you once in awhile, who cares? It's all in good fun. If you're secure with who you are it won't matter to you anyway. Overall, geeks are a good class of people. They may not be in the same universe as cool, but they're generally smart and very kind. There are worse things you can be.

[Ed Cunard]

[quote]Originally posted by KET:
<strong>

Reality check: most North American children today no longer BUY comics. Doesn't matter what type of comics they are. Period.
</strong><hr></blockquote>


While your reality check is certainly accurate, it says nothing for the general public's conception of comic books. In many minds, they are, and always will be, a medium for children. Look at the conservative spokesperson's reaction to Rawhide Kid on CNNs Crossfire. The public still believes comics are for kids.

[gwangung]

There were many thousands of people reading comics that stopped, just because they thought they sucked.

Uh, I don't think so. I believe that the biggest plunge came with the conversion to the direct market model, which, itself, was a reaction to being dropped from the standard mass market distributors. It had little to do with content, and much more to do with distribution.

When we are talking about circulations in the millions or even hundreds of thousands, we are talking about newstand distribution. However, the current format for comics is simply not suited for newstand distribution--too small, not profitable enough and not worth the time for retailers and distributors.

You're simply not going to get numbers up again by relying on the direct sales/comics shop specialty distribution scheme. What you need to do is get product in front of people's eyes somehow (and those eyes are not necessarily fannish eyes), and make a package that's on at least par with other printed products out there.

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by gwangung:
<strong> There were many thousands of people reading comics that stopped, just because they thought they sucked.

Uh, I don't think so. I believe that the biggest plunge came with the conversion to the direct market model, which, itself, was a reaction to being dropped from the standard mass market distributors. It had little to do with content, and much more to do with distribution.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I think so. You're probably right, about distribution leading to the biggest plunge, but even if only 10% of the loss came from people who thought that the content was lacking, that's still many thousands of people. And when did the conversion to the direct model happen? Haven't we still lost a whole lot of readers since then?

[quote]Originally posted by gwangung:
<strong>You're simply not going to get numbers up again by relying on the direct sales/comics shop specialty distribution scheme. </strong><hr></blockquote>

No, of course not. I agree that changing content but not distribution will not get numbers up. But I also think that changing distribution but not content will not be successful, either. I think both of these issues need fixing, and I think both are responsible (if not evenly so) for the decline in sales.

[Shackmania]

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:
<strong>

It was?

Gail Simone did something like this a few years ago and it managed to be both funny and yet somehow respectful. Unlike this...</strong><hr></blockquote>

YUP.
Even funnier that you don't think so.

[Shackmania]

[quote]Originally posted by KET:
<strong>

I think you SHOULD, too. If for nothing else, so that Peter David can write a column deriding your efforts, just like you once did for HIM. :)

The ironic thing about Stuart's "proposal" is that it would have been much funnier seven years ago. However, SUPERGIRL is among only three DC monthlies published which showed any POSITIVE SALES GROWTH for January. In fact, SUPERGIRL is among the only FIVE DC monthlies which showed positive sales growth for the LAST SIX MONTHS.

The other ironic thing is that DC seemed SO QUICK to wield the axe on this title, when the likes of HARLEY QUINN and THE TITANS have been steadily losing far more readers. Seems like there's a story there still waiting to be told....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Quick? It ran five years. A good run.

[Zonker]

[quote]Originally posted by gwangung:
<strong> I believe that the biggest plunge came with the conversion to the direct market model, which, itself, was a reaction to being dropped from the standard mass market distributors. It had little to do with content, and much more to do with distribution.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think that is correct. The direct market started for earnest in the early 1980s. The details of the decline of the newstand model is an area perhaps Stuart can go in to in a later column (here's hoping he will). The million-dollar sellers of a decade ago were well after the direct market was firmly in place. Were they all speculators buying many multiple copies from their local store? Maybe. But actually I think Chuck R-'s explanation from Mile High Comics is the most likely: those million sellers represent poor business decisions by the failed comic retailers of the last decade. Sure some of the multiples are in the hands of speculators. I suspect many more are in storage or have been trashed as the un-saleable inventories of failed comics shops.

Just my opinion,
Z.

[gwangung]

Actually, the high sellers of the 90s were an anamoly to me, with very little to sustain them. Don't have the figures at hand, but that time was more of a blip against a decades long decline in sales.

Either way, distribution is much more key than people think it is. I've seen figures that the number of outlets in the direct sales market is a fifth to a quarter of the number they were a decade ago. Just getting the number of outlets up to where it was back then would be helpful.

[mr mainstream]

On the subject of getting "outsiders" to read comics....

When was the last time you saw and advertisment for any comic, outside a publication or event that was connected to comics in some way ?

I can't remember anything happening like that ?

Many books have posters about them in the London Tube system.
I've never seen a comic advertised in this way.

The comics industry can't just rely on the fans to rope others into the comic book world.
We are just "geeks" and "nerds".
And as we all know, comics "geeks" and "nerds" have no respect and are to be feared by the righteous !

[Academic]

[quote]Originally posted by Ed Cunard:
<strong>
While your reality check is certainly accurate, it says nothing for the general public's conception of comic books. In many minds, they are, and always will be, a medium for children. Look at the conservative spokesperson's reaction to Rawhide Kid on CNNs Crossfire. The public still believes comics are for kids.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was the point I was trying to get across.

In the 1940s, adults read comics. They were a staple for American GIs overseas.

By the end of the fifties, comics had to go through the Comic Code Authority - a self-regulatory body that ensured everything in comics was child friendly.

Comics-based movies allow adults to relive their childhoods. Clothes with comics images are like a cool brand. But comics themselves, however, are looked down upon as things for children.

And that's the difference between America and the world: in America, comics fall into the same category as cartoons (the adults have animated series, cartoons are for kids) and the like.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
<strong>Before too many people get offended... :)
This article was triggered by reading one too many "the comics industry should DIE" articles/postings/rants. It's certainly not aimed at ALL fans. (But did I make you look?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I found it hilarious, Stuart, thanks. Way I look at it is, if you're not the kind of fan being satirized why take offense on someone else's behalf?, and if you are the kind of fan being satirized you probably ought to step back and take a look at your life. :)

- Elayne

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by lil bad boy:
<strong>I also think a lot of comic book pros confuse doing their best with doing a good job, and are a little thin-skinned when it comes to criticism.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think this thread is more about some fans being thin-skinned rather than pros. :)

- Elayne

[mr mainstream]

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong>

I found it hilarious, Stuart, thanks. Way I loko at it is, if you're not the kind of fan being satirized why take offense on someone else's behalf?, and if you are the kind of fan being satirized you probably ought to step back and take a look at your life. :)

- Elayne</strong><hr></blockquote>


I know you put up a smiley Elayne, but I have to comment on your post...

why is it these days, that if anyone shows any real, intense interest in a subject, they need to "get a life" ?

Is following a comic book and feeling hurt/pleased with it's course any different than following a football/soccer team with a huge passion ?

Is a music fan "sad" because she sets up a website about her favourite band ?
Does a keen stamp collector need to "step back and take a look at his life" ?

People being highly interested in a hobby is not a crime. They aren't hurting anybody.
The ravings of a rabid comics fanboy are hardly going to bring about the end of civilization !

I honestly feel sorry for the folks out there who can't feel passionate about anything.....except ridiculing others for no apparent reason, other than being an easy stereotyped target.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by mr mainstream:
<strong>I know you put up a smiley Elayne, but I have to comment on your post... why is it these days, that if anyone shows any real, intense interest in a subject, they need to "get a life" ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because it indicates obsession and misplaced priorities, rather than balance and moderation, and most people believe a life that contains balance and moderation is more varied, interesting and healthy.

[quote]<strong>Is following a comic book and feeling hurt/pleased with it's course any different than following a football/soccer team with a huge passion ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course not; these people need to get lives as well. :) Actually, I do think it's qualitatively different because of comics' perceived rep in this country as nerd-bait, a rep that's probably not going to change any time soon.

[quote]<strong>People being highly interested in a hobby is not a crime.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nobody's accusing obsessive people of being criminals, Mr. M. Well, except if they're obsessive heroin addicts or shoplifters. :)

- Elayne

[Tue Sorensen]

[quote]Originally posted by mr mainstream:
<strong>why is it these days, that if anyone shows any real, intense interest in a subject, they need to "get a life" ?

Is following a comic book and feeling hurt/pleased with it's course any different than following a football/soccer team with a huge passion ?

Is a music fan "sad" because she sets up a website about her favourite band ?
Does a keen stamp collector need to "step back and take a look at his life" ?

People being highly interested in a hobby is not a crime. They aren't hurting anybody.
The ravings of a rabid comics fanboy are hardly going to bring about the end of civilization !

I honestly feel sorry for the folks out there who can't feel passionate about anything.....except ridiculing others for no apparent reason, other than being an easy stereotyped target.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I totally agree and have made this point many times. Fanatic anti-fanaticism is the worst kind of fanaticism. People who pride themselves on being "moderate" indeed often are people who're unable to be truly passionate about their interests (if they have any) - *or* who're unable/unwilling to *acknowledge* that their "geeky" interests are passionate.

As part of the ignorant throng ("most people" are wrong, Elayne) they would be pretty harmless if it wasn't because they often try to drag everybody else down to their own laughable level with their inane and conceited superior attitude.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Tue Sorensen:
<strong>People who pride themselves on being "moderate" indeed often are people who're unable to be truly passionate about their interests...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Um, no. They just put their passions into perspective, and realize It's Just Comics (or It's Just Sports or It's Just Shopping or It's Just Message Boards).

- Elayne

[Jeremy Williams]

What can i say...geekdom is alive and well? :D