JIC: NOSING AROUND THE X-MEN

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/nightcrawler.jpg" width="175" height="310" border="0" align="right" alt="Asamiya's Nightcrawler">by Mike Sangiacomo

Angular, pointy noses.

I don’t mean slightly angular noses, I mean noses that could be used to scrape grout out in between tiles. Noses that make Michael Jackson’s well-hacked honker look normal. Noses so silly looking, that they undermine some of the best writing on the market.

Welcome Kia Asamiya, acclaimed Japanese artist, to Uncanny X-Men with issue #416, on sale Dec. 4.

Dude, what’s with the noses?

Anyone unfamiliar with my complaint should take a gander at the art that accompanies this article. See that pointy nose on Nightcrawler? That’s not a random occurrence. Asamiya loves triangular noses, they are on almost everyone’s faces.

The weird part is that otherwise the art is very nice. The work is clean, detailed and very cinematic.

<a href=http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/UX416_01.jpg target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/UX416_01_t.jpg" width="165" height="248" border="0" align="left" alt="Uncanny X-Men #416, page 1"></a>But those noses, I just don’t get it.

It’s like if Chuck Austen decided to use the number 3 instead of the letter E. Sur3, th3 writing still mak3s s3ns3 if you work for it, but why bother?

Am I missing something?

Was there some crying need for face-distorting, angled noses that somehow slipped past me? Putting a strange looking schnoz on an otherwise normal face just makes the face, and everything else, look abnormal. It reminds me of that period a few years ago when everyone had all white eyes until artists got over it. Or the “big feet” syndrome, which we’re still struggling with.

Comics don’t have to be photo-realistic, but artists on traditional series should make some attempt to be anatomically correct, (barring various wings, claws and things.) I’m not against weird art, but that’s a whole different look so we don’t expect things to be normal. This is one unsettling element of an otherwise normal drawing.

I figured there has to be a reason that Asamiya has this nose thing going.

I asked Marvel’s new marketing and communications Joey Zerbo.

The poor guy seemed taken aback, probably wondering if all the media inquiries were going to be this strange.

He checked with C.B. Cebulski, a Marvel editor who is fluent in Japanese and works with Asamiya.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/UX416_02.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/UX416_02_t.jpg" width="165" height="248" border="0" align="right" alt="Uncanny X-Men #416, page 2"></a>The reason he draws noses that way is: he likes to.

“It’s a matter of personal style,” Zerbo said. “He knows people have a problem with it, but he feels if other artists exaggerate different body parts and people accept that, so they should accept his style.”

Hmmm, so if all the other artists jumped off a bridge...

I see Asamiya’s point, hard to miss since it’s right there on Nightcrawler’s face, but I still don’t get it.

His work on Thor on the upcoming Marvel Double-Shot #1 (out Nov.4) is brilliant and not a pointed proboscis in sight, so we know he can do it.

So, once again, welcome aboard Kia Asamiya, for however long you may draw the X-Men. Just put the ruler down.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/UX416_03.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/UX416_03_t.jpg" width="165" height="248" border="0" align="left" alt="Uncanny X-Men #416, page 3"></a>If there is any doubt to Austen’s writing ability, check out Uncanny X-Men #415, with the wonderful Sean Philips art. We haven’t seen this kind of character interplay since...actually, we’ve never seen this kind of interplay.

SUPER SLIGHT SPOILER WARNING

Iceman is becoming a man of ice, his chest area won't revert back to flesh and blood. It's a secret he keeps, but he's not the only guy on the team with a secret.

His buddy Northstar is in love with him.

Austen is playing the affair perfectly. When a woman who, shall be say, has been around the sexual block a few times, goes after the slippery Iceman, Northstar is cheesed. His great bitchy line, "I saw him with that skank."

Later, Northstar gets to play the hero and save Iceman's life when the woman's super-powered husband shows up.

It sounds simple, but Austen is making magic.

[Pariah]

You know what they say about guys with pointy no...

Nah. I won't go there...

[tralfaz]

X-men at its best is when it's a soap opera. besides, that's what comic books really are anyway.

dum dum duuuuuuuuuum

[KittyPop]

His pointy noses...

Quitely's popsicle heads, popsicle stick legs...

oh well...

[gOgIver]

The Iceman chest thing seems like it was lifted from Joe Q's idea to give Iron Man a mechanical heart. Some new ideas please.

And what's with all the gay B.S. in comics? It blows. This is not Empty TV.

[TemporalFlux]

Why play around with the chest thing? Give Iceman cold feet. :D

[Hdefined]

the chest thing is more like Iceman missing his chest back in (New) X-Men #50, but I don't mind.

The noses . . . yeah, actually they are annoying

I just don't know about the gay thing . . . I mean, it's like the stereotype heterosexuals have that if you see two lesbians together, they must be having sex all the time. I mean, just because someone's gay doesn't mean they have to be actively gay. So maybe Northstar's out of the closet, but still . . . ah, I liked issue #414, so I'll give this one a go, I'm just wary that it could be handled poorly

at least Asamiya's noses are more tolerable than Quitely's "everyone-has-lemon-lips"

[Skyman]

Man, I find your complaints really silly. Why the pointy nose?????

Hey, why does Mike Mignola draw small feet?
Why did Jack Kirby draw big knees?
Why do manga artists draw big eyes?
Why does Rob Liefeld draw little Michael Jackson noses?
Why does Jim Lee draw those thin lines when he wants to give the feeling of volume?
Why does Adam Huges draw the human figure with idealized measures and not proportionate as real human beings?
Why women have big breasts in comics, and men have a flat crotch?

There's not a defined style on how to draw the human figure, that's how artists can express themselves trough their art. Maybe you can give a guideline on how to draw comics, so every artist would look the same... :rolleyes:

[Icewing_X]

Heh, I agree about the noses; they're very distracting. But, I suppose that, if Beast can take after Simba, the UXM crew can resemble Pinnochio.

Oh well.

I dropped Uncanny when Austen started, due in large part to Garney's art, anyway. His simplistic, almost cartoony style really does nothing for me, nor does Asamiya's manga.

~Icewing, wondering what changes May might bring...

[Cray_ws]

Nosey Opinions

After viewing the art preview I must say that I find the pointy noses a minor annoyance compared to the stiff angular lifeless figures. Examples of this clearly shown as Iceman is supposedly sitting, looks unrelaxed and his entire right arm looks distorted. But maybe I'm being picky here too. Whatever the case despite his claim in Japan, Kia Asamiya's artwork seems amatuerish and very static at best.

Chuck Austen's writing while may seem innovating to some, its not. Infact there's very little creative writing on X-Men books, Grant Morrison included. The X-Men have been the same for many years and very rarely does anything progress. There's not a doubt in my mind a character like Colossus will come back from death. Recycling ideas seems to be a manditory thing in Marvel.

There are better books out there than X-Men, books like Queen and Country, Finders, Negation, Powers, Teenager From Mars, and Savage Dragon. Anyone these books could replace your 'X' fix.

But I digress, If you feel compelled to pick up Kia Asamiya's X-Men work because his art, then I have to wonder what your standards of good art are. I've seen manga style with less distortion.

-Cray

[Combat Chuck]

Or you can just do what I do and get great books like Powers, Queen and Country, and Teenagers from Mars, WHILE getting some X-books, Spider-books, and so on and so forth.

C'mon, Morrison has pretty much changed around the hackneyed method of writing X-men comics, and he's brought around some change. While some of that change wasn't for the best, his stories can't be called uninteresting, or non-creative. They just can't.

Austen seems to be in the category of subtle changes, but same story format that the X-men books were in before the "revamp". But the thing is, if the stories are good, then who cares? I certainly don't. Oh, and Sean Philips....wouldn't say he has horrible art, but I would definitely not say he has gorgeous art. And I really just don't like him on Uncanny X-men....

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by gOgIver:
<strong>And what's with all the gay B.S. in comics? It blows. This is not Empty TV.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uncomfortable with The Real World, are you?

That's OK, we're not crazy about you, either. :p

Cheers, Todd

[Danilo Raul]

Stupidest complaint ever..... :rolleyes:

[Robert Escandon]

Was this article just an excuse to blab out the spoilers? Seems like it... It's just noses, let's get over it.

[Astro Demon]

I am an aspiring comics artist/creator. I am sure many of you out there are as well. I don't have to like the art in every comic book I see. But I have respect it because the artist is where many want to be.
This reminds me of the schoolyard taunt: "Let's see you do it better"

[SalCipriano]

I agree with Skyman, a styles a style. I've never been a fan of anyone asking anyone to draw not in their style.

[Morlun]

Noses? Terry Dodson is drawing Black Cat with breasts bigger than her head and you are talking about noses? :p

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by Morlun:
<strong>Noses? Terry Dodson is drawing Black Cat with breasts bigger than her head and you are talking about noses? :p </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah but if you had to choose one tihng to kae bigger breasts or noses. wouldn't you choose breasts?

[MindTricked]

Hello Kia, welcome to America. Let's hope you use the internet to download porn and MP3s, and stay away from comic message boards. Jeez. All the bad art out there, and people are complaining about noses on an otherwise clean presentation. I wonder about people sometimes....

[San]

<<The poor guy seemed taken aback, probably wondering if all the media inquiries were going to be this strange.>>

That must be the healthiest reaction to a complaint about noses.

San

PS: Iceman's chest of ice ressembles the mechanical heart of Iron Man, and this shows a lack of ideas? WTF? You could as well say that the shield of Cap is an obvious ripoff of Hawkeye's bow.

[Hdefined]

[quote]Originally posted by Morlun:
<strong>Noses? Terry Dodson is drawing Black Cat with breasts bigger than her head and you are talking about noses? :p </strong><hr></blockquote>

the scary thing though is that there are actually women like that in real life. of course, 100% plastic, but it's still . . . semi-realistic

[Bastich]

I'm willing to give the new style -- noses and all -- a fair shot. It bugs me, too, to see characters I've followed for so long change in appearance so drastically, but still I think we should be welcoming this kind of change if we want the industry to thrive.

And to be fair, Uncanny has gotten nothing but flack for years now, and any change is at least as likely to make things better as it is to make things worse. This is good for the title.

[AllAboutMe]

Morrison. Quitely. Austen. Garney. Phillips. Van Scriver. Kia.
Not one of these gentlemen has done anything remotely amazing with the X-Books. All the art from the afforementioned has been not only out-of-place for this book (thank goodness Churchill is long gone) but downright horrible.
The writing...Austen so far...Scott Lobdell, Fabian...can't ell from one to the other... dull... unremarkable. And how about Morrison's run? Everybody raves. Why? Someone tell me what is so great? A REAL reason?
It is really hard to care about this once-glorious book anymore.
Somebody save it.

[Stabbo]

I say we crucify the next guy with a unique quirck in his art!

This post has driven me to sign up for the board. I don't understand how someone can complain about a variation in art. Are the paintings of Michaelangelo not famous, even though his figures are distorted and overly powerful-looking? Comics, and art as a whole, are not required to be photo-realistic.

And what's wrong with a gay character. Northstar being attracted to Iceman does not make him "actively gay" and wanting to have sex all the time. I just don't get bigotry.

[paulski]

I'm for personal and unique style as much as the next guy. But there's a time and place and Uncanny ain't it.

Still, what do I care? I dropped the book 18 months ago and haven't picked up an issue since. If this helps to increase sales, then it's a good thing. But I'll believe it when I see it...

[skaptimusprime]

Hi...I usually just use this site to keep up on "comic book type news." However, I felt I should respond to the article and some of the comments above. It seems to me that comic book readers value the characters over the creators. Too often have I read comments such as "They're ruining characters I've known for so long." This mentality perpetuates poor quality, a good example being those still reading the Spider-Man books for a good portion of the 90's. Perhaps one could argue that artists and writers have done their jobs too well, endearing these "timeless creations" within our hearts. However, they are only fictional characters, and they are no longer even being produced by their original creators. I have no problem with this. Sure, Bob Kane created Batman, but I welcome Frank Miller's, David Mazzucelli's, and Jim Lee's takes on him. Moving onto the article itself, I especially take issue with the phrase "traditional series," giving a sense of perpetual stagnation to anything super-hero related. Milligan's "X-Force" and Millar's iteration of the Avengers in "The Ultimates" show that you can think outside the box, panel, whatever. I especially appreciate "Skyman's" comments concerning the existence (or lack thereof) of one definitive "style." Kirby's style was ten times more outrageous than Kia's, and I suppose he would be the father of this school of "Traditional Series," right?

[danzo]

[quote]Originally posted by Skyman:
Why women have big breasts in comics, and men have a flat crotch?<hr></blockquote>ok, that's a good point- especially the flat-crotch thing, i give my guys genitals....it's only fair. i mean doesn't a crotch-less hero just seem wrong? it's gotta be homophobia: "if i give the hero a bulge, people might think i'm gay" nah, just insecure if ya don't.

[quote]There's not a defined style on how to draw the human figure, that's how artists can express themselves trough their art. Maybe you can give a guideline on how to draw comics, so every artist would look the same... :rolleyes: <hr></blockquote>and this is a bad one. why? because if you're a wanna-be pro, that's exactly the sort of thing the editors shoot ya down for. also, Nightcrawler was long ago given a very nice, very specific nose (classic "teutonic",) and as he's not a shapeshifter, he should still have it. ditto the rest of the X-Peeps. like Emma now being a hip-less anorexic with balloon breasts- when Byrne originated the character she was curvy, but the breasts were noticably smaller than Jean's, who's were noticably smaller than Ororo's.... it's called consistency and has nothing whatsoever to do with an artist's personal style. plus, this nose thing is just plain ugly. ick.

[danzo]

[quote]I especially take issue with the phrase "traditional series," giving a sense of perpetual stagnation to anything super-hero related.<hr></blockquote>
oh, and drawing something oddly or turning an established character into something totally different is not "creativity" it's the lack of creativity. you don't have to rehash a series and you don't have to trash a series to do it well. you simply have to be creative.

[qnetter]

[quote]Originally posted by KingStalin:
<strong>

Yeah but if you had to choose one tihng to kae bigger breasts or noses. wouldn't you choose breasts?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope, noses. Especially if the old wives' tale is true.

[MichaelCoughlin]

What's sad is that when I first read this I wasn't thinking clearly, and I thought that Iceman was still a teenager and all I could think was "Oh gosh, please tell me they're not gonna do a pedophile storyline."

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by qnetter:
<strong>

Nope, noses. Especially if the old wives' tale is true.</strong><hr></blockquote>

lol! NICE

[Jago]

[quote]Originally posted by KingStalin:
<strong>

Yeah but if you had to choose one tihng to kae bigger breasts or noses. wouldn't you choose breasts?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Speaking as a guy who has a larger-than-average schnozz (but by no means huge) and very small breasts, I'm glad it's this way.

I prefer my women to have bigger breasts than noses, but not myself...

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by KittyPop:
<strong>Quitely's popsicle heads,</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Let's not forget his giving every character DSL's. Even the male ones.

[FigNewton]

In this day and age of extremely stylized artwork, I find it amazing that Kia Asamiya's noses bothers anyone to the extent that they must use it as a basis for a critique.

That said, I've personally never enjoyed such artwork on American comics. As much as I enjoy both Japanese and American comics (as my purchase list is split about 50/50 between them), I've always had a preferance for a more realistic rendering in Super-hero comics.

As for the gay thing... the only thing that bugs me is that Austen may be following the "Iceman is gay" contingent of fandom and working it in as official, when it's something I've always perceived to be entirely fabricated by readers - I've just never understood the claim.

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>

...Let's not forget his giving every character DSL's. Even the male ones.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know Xavier uses those DSL's to keep cyclops in line.

[Franklin Harris]

I'm sorry. I haven't had my coffee yet this morning, so I'm a bit out of it. But did Mike Sangiacomo just spend an entire column kvetching about noses?

[BoyWonder]

As someone who doesn't particularly like the X-men, I would be very happy to see Morrison leave and go work on books I like such as the JLA or Batman.

As for the nose thing, it doesn't really bother me.

Regarding Iceman being gay, aren't most of the X-men homo-sexual? All that anger Wolverine feels is almost certainly latent homsexual feelings for Cyclops that he can't process. With his healing factor the two boys could play a bit rough, which almost certainly the way Logan likes it...

[Skyman]

[quote]Originally posted by danzo:
<strong>and this is a bad one. why? because if you're a wanna-be pro, that's exactly the sort of thing the editors shoot ya down for. also, Nightcrawler was long ago given a very nice, very specific nose (classic "teutonic",) and as he's not a shapeshifter, he should still have it. ditto the rest of the X-Peeps. like Emma now being a hip-less anorexic with balloon breasts- when Byrne originated the character she was curvy, but the breasts were noticably smaller than Jean's, who's were noticably smaller than Ororo's.... it's called consistency and has nothing whatsoever to do with an artist's personal style. plus, this nose thing is just plain ugly. ick.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't see the same style in any of the X-artists (Quitely, Jimenez, Philips, Asamiya, etc), so why do you assume that characters have to be drawn in a specific way? I mean, complaining about a nose is so silly I don't think the X-editor cared when he hired Asamiya.
Do you think Sean Philips' Cyclops is exactly the same than Ron Garney's Cyclops? Have you compared them? It's not called inconsistency, it has to do with the artists' personal style.
If to justify a style to draw a nose you need to talk about shapeshifting, you are forgetting that these characters are absolutelly abstract. They don't exist physically, they look and act the way the artists imagine they do.
If you don't like the current creative team, you can always read those back issues with perfect noses, right? :rolleyes:

[rundownthewayup]

Yay, yay! To all the PRO gay!

Just cause a hot woman goes walking down the street, and a straight man sees her; doesn't make him run over and throw her on the ground for hot sex, cause he's attracted to her! Please! I've even asked a straight man out before; thinking he was gay; and he was the sweetest ever, simply telling me he was already in a relationship, but appreciated it. Now THAT is kindness and love for all mankind, not this homophobe crap. :-) I actually love the idea that Northstar could have a crush on a straight character. It happens in real life, and you, as a gay man, get over it; and move on. And I also am SO tired of the whole "as long as someone is gay, but isn't "active", it's alright" (religious right) thing. Ack. Please. If you can have a monogamous, serious relationship, with sex; so can I. Thank you. It's all about the education. Get some. :-)

My two cents.

Art wise, I really wish this manga trend in "mainstream comics" would end. I'm all for everyone's taste; but manga is just NOT for me; and it's seeping into every book on the market. If I want manga, I'll buy manga. Just my thought.

[Wade @ Sighnub.com]

You know I post on these boards all the time, and this article and following discussion is the first time I have ever thought to myself, 'Man, some of us need to get out more.'

[Skyman]

[quote]Originally posted by rundownthewayup:
<strong>
Just cause a hot woman goes walking down the street, and a straight man sees her; doesn't make him run over and throw her on the ground for hot sex, cause he's attracted to her! Please! I've even asked a straight man out before; thinking he was gay; and he was the sweetest ever, simply telling me he was already in a relationship, but appreciated it. Now THAT is kindness and love for all mankind, not this homophobe crap. :-) I actually love the idea that Northstar could have a crush on a straight character. It happens in real life, and you, as a gay man, get over it; and move on. And I also am SO tired of the whole "as long as someone is gay, but isn't "active", it's alright" (religious right) thing. Ack. Please. If you can have a monogamous, serious relationship, with sex; so can I. Thank you. It's all about the education. Get some. :-)
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I totally agree with you. Everybody assumes that if a character is gay, that character is a sex addict or something.

[quote]Art wise, I really wish this manga trend in "mainstream comics" would end. I'm all for everyone's taste; but manga is just NOT for me; and it's seeping into every book on the market. If I want manga, I'll buy manga. Just my thought.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

But at least all the characters have regular eyes, and not big eyes (could you imagine, big eyes AND big noses!?) :D

[sorry about dresden]

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
<strong>

the scary thing though is that there are actually women like that in real life. of course, 100% plastic, but it's still . . . semi-realistic</strong><hr></blockquote>

scary?...um, no.

[Tim]

:D Ice chest, oh that's funny. Is that where they keep the beer? HAHAHA! I wonder if he has a t-shirt that says Igloo? everyone's so caught up on noses that they've ignored such a rightious pun! :D

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>Dude, what’s with the noses?...The weird part is that otherwise the art is very nice. The work is clean, detailed and very cinematic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dude, what's with obsessing over one aspect of the surface form that's obviously just a stylistic choice on the part of the artist?

- Elayne

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by KingStalin:
<strong>Yeah but if you had to choose one tihng to kae bigger breasts or noses. wouldn't you choose breasts?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No.

The first is a stylistic choice. The second, more often than not, signifies undue attention to grabbing the (hetero male) reader's prurient interest over the necessities of storytelling.

- Elayne

[bash]

Actually pointy noses don't bother me at all - Kia is a fine artist with is own style and that's that... There's been a rotating cast of pencilers since forever - I'm not gonna stop reading the X-men because there's a new artist yet again...

What bothers me though is the supposed super consistency - why for instance does Wolverine have a pinch under Quitely, and none when Kia draws him? - why have the costumes changed again, when the recent leather black/yellow was already establised and an appreciated change from the old spandex..? - why aren't the costumes the same between New X-M and Uncanny? - why haven't Chamber and Husk met, considering they're friends and once lovers? etc..

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by danzo:
<strong>ok, that's a good point- especially the flat-crotch thing, i give my guys genitals....it's only fair. i mean doesn't a crotch-less hero just seem wrong? it's gotta be homophobia: "if i give the hero a bulge, people might think i'm gay" nah, just insecure if ya don't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good for you, Dan. At a NY-area convention last year, Sal Velluto said pretty much the same thing, that he's secure enough in his manhood that he doesn't have a problem drawing logical male anatomy. You don't have to make the guy hung like a horse (just like you shouldn't make an athletic woman too top-heavy, check out actual female athletes and you'll see not that many of them have an excess amount of mammary fat), but it helps the storytelling if you don't omit the hint of an external organ.

- Elayne

[KACH]

Oh God, what a useless complaint . . . Always has to be something with comic fans.

And Northstar is in love with Iceman now, huh? So the whole "we're not gonna focus on the gay thing" got thrown right out the window I guess. Considering Austen discussed racism on every other page of "U.S. War Machine," why am I not surprised?

--J.

[RDuarte]

"Not one of these gentlemen has done anything remotely amazing with the X-Books."

You know, the other day, I was listening to a sports radio show, and they were debating the greatest running backs of all time. You could tell when these guys were kids, becuase they stuck by the guys they watched as kids, and everyone else was trash. As I read these posts (BTW, until I start drawing UXM, I won't complain about something as minor as noses), I'm reminded of the fact that the "nobody will create a comic as good as (insert your favorite creator here)" arguement is part of what makes comics great for the diehard fans, and impossible to get into (blockbuster summer movies aside) for everybody else.

[kcekada]

I'm surprised that some people don't think the weird noses are a big deal. They are distracting. When you look at the art, and the first thing you see in a big stylized schnoz, something is wrong.

But even without the long pointy noses, the anatomy is horrible. Look how Bobby Drake is posed when sitting. Really awkward!!

Sure the ice looks pretty, but the character art is not up to X-Men standards.

KC

[RondVidar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hdefined:
[QB]the chest thing is more like Iceman missing his chest back in (New) X-Men #50, but I don't mind.

The noses . . . yeah, actually they are annoying

I just don't know about the gay thing . . . I mean, it's like the stereotype heterosexuals have that if you see two lesbians together, they must be having sex all the time. I mean, just because someone's gay doesn't mean they have to be actively gay. So maybe Northstar's out of the closet, but still . . . ah, I liked issue #414, so I'll give this one a go, I'm just wary that it could be handled poorly

---
I mean, just because someone's heterosexual doesn't mean they have to be actively heterosexual. And yet we see it all the time in comics and in X-men in particular. Get over it.

[beetle]

I want Sean Philips or Ron Garney back, but....but i'm willing to give this a try...even though i don't like the big noses.

[latvian_sparrow]

Basically, Asamiya may not be everyone's cup of tea, but there is no reason to lambaste his work for his style. If you don't like it, then don't buy it - your dollars vote harder than anything else. However, I have to say that the original article sounded like someone who is not feeling too well, and who felt he had to post an article - it shows. It's nothing more than an unsophisticated rant.

As for "big noses" - plenty of people have them - including German / Teutonic peoples, of which Nightcrawler is a member... As to everyone having a big nose... well, let's just say that makes everyone look more distinctive.

On the topic of which you would rather have - Large breasts or large noses - Kia does 'em both. Large noses on the guys, large breasts on the ladies.

I smell "orientalism" on this board - for those not in the know, go look up Edward Said and read his book on the subject.

[saiyanspider]

I think people are complaining a bit too much around here. I think the guy who posted this story is a bit un professional about his approach in writing this. if your posting a story it's bad form to give us any indication of your opinion. I come to this board for un biased news reports, i read the postings for other's opinions.

[GPM]

This is a ridiculous article. His noses do take some getting used to, but after reading Silent Mobius and Nadesico for a while, I DID get used to it. I can't believe you are bashing Kia Asymia without adding to the article that you don't like any non-realistic styles. Look at what we here in my store refer to as "Monkey Man art" by artists like Carlos Meglia and Francisco Herrera who draw everybody ape-like. Or J. Scott Campbell's art who draws women's legs like elongated toothpicks. Much more distracting to me as I wonder how the heck they can stand. There are dozens of artists who depict characters unrealistically. It seems petty to just pick on one and practically demand he change his style. I prefer George Perez, Phil Jimenez and Dan Jurgens myself, but I'm not going to tell someone they have to change to suit me.

[kgleason]

It's a nose. Just a nose. As long as the story telling aspect of the art is done well, the nose won't bug me.

[Jim]

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
<strong>I just don't know about the gay thing . . . [...] I mean, just because someone's gay doesn't mean they have to be actively gay. So maybe Northstar's out of the closet, but still . . . ah, I liked issue #414, so I'll give this one a go, I'm just wary that it could be handled poorly</strong><hr></blockquote>

Take a look at what you're saying: "I don't mind if he's gay, just so long as he never acts on it or talks about it or otherwise reminds us of it. If he'd just be quiet about it, I'd be fine." In other words, if he'd just stay in the closet...

But more realistically, look at it from a storytelling point of view. Superhero tales are all about conflict: between the characters and nature, the characters and entire alien races, the characters and supervillains, the characters and their teammates, or the characters and themselves. It's not enough to just have super-powers; they have to have personality hooks to build those conflicts upon. To tell stories with currency (ones which reflect the world today, not ones dealing with money!), those personality hooks need to be things which people encounter in their daily lives, both positively and negatively. That's going to include work, pop culture, sports, sex/love/romance, drugs/medicine/illness, wealth, and so on. One of Northstar's established personality hooks is that he is gay; that's been public for a decade and generally known for twice that long. It does no good to have a personality hook with currency and not use it; you might as well ignore Peter and Mary Jane's marriage (um, oh, well...).

I'll freely admit that there is and should be more to Northstar than just being the token gay boy in the cast, but I also believe that there is good underutilized storytelling potential in having a gay character in X-Men, especially with its long focus on "hiding who you really are". It's a theme whose time has come and Northstar should definitely be exploiting that facet of his character... but not to the exclusion of the rest of his character or the others in the book.

Balance is the ticket. And to be sure, you're right that it could be done poorly. But the fear of doing something less than perfect is a horrible reason to not do it at all.

[Morlun]

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong>

No.

The first is a stylistic choice. The second, more often than not, signifies undue attention to grabbing the (hetero male) reader's prurient interest over the necessities of storytelling.

- Elayne</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ditto.

[wraith]

[quote]Originally posted by FigNewton:
<strong>In this day and age of extremely stylized artwork, I find it amazing that Kia Asamiya's noses bothers anyone to the extent that they must use it as a basis for a critique.

As for the gay thing... the only thing that bugs me is that Austen may be following the "Iceman is gay" contingent of fandom and working it in as official, when it's something I've always perceived to be entirely fabricated by readers - I've just never understood the claim.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you completely.

[El Toro Rojo]

You know what bugs me more than pointy noses? Characters written out of character.

When would Northstar EVER use the word "skank"? He's French Canadian, not a Springer panelist. :rolleyes:

[mike sangiacomo]

Sangiacomo here.
Whoa there, who said anything about Iceman being gay? Read the column, better read, read the comic. Bobby's the object of affection, that's it.

As far as the nose knows...
Can someone write a whole column about a nose?
Apparently.
The point is that the long, angular nose is an affectation that Kia picked up somewhere, maybe because he thinks we Americans will like it. I think it cheapens his work and looks silly. If you agree, great. If not, that's fine too. To one reader who thought we were talking about big noses, it's not that it's a big nose, it's a pointy nose and EVERYONE HAS ONE.
Even though no one has mentioned it, I hated the needle noses when Starlin did them as well, for the same reasons.
Good night.
M

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by El Toro Rojo:
<strong>When would Northstar EVER use the word "skank"? He's French Canadian, not a Springer panelist. :rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe he's a French Canadian who watches Springer?

Hey - at least he's not uttering a French phrase or word in every other sentence to beat us over the head...uh....remind us that he's from another country.

MattB

[Jamie S. Rich]

This article makes me sad.

[beta-ray]

mike sangiacomo said:
[quote]The point is that the long, angular nose is an affectation that Kia picked up somewhere, maybe because he thinks we Americans will like it. I think it cheapens his work and looks silly.<hr></blockquote>

Not sure if you are talking about the pointed noses when you refer to the long, angular nose (I think the pointy nose doesn't look long, but more like a pyramid), but if you are referring to the pointed nose I'd have to say "no". He's been drawing that type of nose for a long time before US audiences would even see his work.

As for me, it is odd... and I can't say that I like it... but it doesn't bother me much. Yes there are art styles in comics that are more realistic, but very few (though more nowadays) that ARE realistic. Most of them are stylistic and it is a matter of taste and how used to it you are. I don't mind Kirby's wide mouths, square fingers and dark squigglies on the face for instance... but I can't stand the constipated, gaunt and scratched up faces of Leifield (or is it Liefield I can never remember)...

Oh well... *shrug*

[KACH]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>

Maybe he's a French Canadian who watches Springer?

Hey - at least he's not uttering a French phrase or word in every other sentence to beat us over the head...uh....remind us that he's from another country.

MattB</strong><hr></blockquote>

"Vas is das?"

"Mein Gott!"

"Effendi."

"Cher."

"Tovarisch."

Ah, Claremont at his best . . .

--J.

[paulski]

[quote]Originally posted by saiyanspider:
<strong>I think people are complaining a bit too much around here. I think the guy who posted this story is a bit un professional about his approach in writing this. if your posting a story it's bad form to give us any indication of your opinion. I come to this board for un biased news reports, i read the postings for other's opinions.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But that's just it. This isn't a story. It's an editorial by Mike, like it or hate it. Giving his opinion is the whole point of it.

[danzo]

[quote]Originally posted by Tim:
:D Ice chest, oh that's funny. Is that where they keep the beer? HAHAHA! I wonder if he has a t-shirt that says Igloo? everyone's so caught up on noses that they've ignored such a rightious pun! :D <hr></blockquote>Bwah-Ha-Ha-ha-ha.....good point!
oh, and thanks, Elayne....

[danzo]

[quote]Originally posted by Skyman:
I don't see the same style in any of the X-artists (Quitely, Jimenez, Philips, Asamiya, etc), so why do you assume that characters have to be drawn in a specific way? I mean, complaining about a nose is so silly I don't think the X-editor cared when he hired Asamiya.
Do you think Sean Philips' Cyclops is exactly the same than Ron Garney's Cyclops? Have you compared them? It's not called inconsistency, it has to do with the artists' personal style.
If to justify a style to draw a nose you need to talk about shapeshifting, you are forgetting that these characters are absolutelly abstract. They don't exist physically, they look and act the way the artists imagine they do.
If you don't like the current creative team, you can always read those back issues with perfect noses, right? :rolleyes: <hr></blockquote>
i wasn't talking about perfect anything, the point is simply that there should be consistency, naturally each artist will draw each character a bit differently- DUH!!! but, it should at least be based on what has gone before- if the artist wants to draw a different character, do exactly that. but please don't draw an orange and tell me it's an apple. by your logic it would be just fine if in the next issue Iceman was Tapiocaman... the Angel's wings were made of twigs and straw, and the Hulk guest-starred- but he's pink this month.
it's not personal style, it's not giving a damn. abstract? well, gee, i'd love to see the all-cubist issue, bet that would be a smash sell-out...hee-hee-hee...or just word-ballons- then we could all just imagine our own perfect versions....can't get more abstact than that....

[FigNewton]

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong>Sangiacomo here.
Whoa there, who said anything about Iceman being gay? Read the column, better read, read the comic. Bobby's the object of affection, that's it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

And if you read my post, you'll see I'm addressing what I fear the direction will be. Heaven forbid a reader express hesitation over a possible outcome to a story.

We've all seen the "Oh I'm straight, oh this gay person likes me, hmm, no I'm straight, struggle struggle, oh I'm gay" storyline before. Not that it's an unrealistic premise, because it isn't. I just would think it's lame for what I have perceived to be a long running reader-fabricated belief to be played out that way.

[Spikey_Jim]

[quote]Originally posted by gOgIver:
<strong>The Iceman chest thing seems like it was lifted from Joe Q's idea to give Iron Man a mechanical heart. Some new ideas please.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes that was Joe's idea. We've never had Iron Man with an artificial heart before... :rolleyes:

As for the art thing, WTF? It's better than the art Uncannys had since Raney's last fill in by a long shot. If he'd drawn the womens norks so big they couldn't stand up or the blokes muscles so big they can't put their arms down, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

Was there nothing more interesting to discuss this week Sangiacomo?

Spikey_Jim

[beetle]

O·ri·en·tal·ism also o·ri·en·tal·ism Pronunciation Key (ôr-ntl-zm, r-)
n.
A quality, mannerism, or custom specific to or characteristic of the Orient.
Scholarly knowledge of Asian cultures, languages, and peoples.

I wouldn't necessarily say this is Orientalism...more just a particualr artists style who happens to be from the orient.

[Dan Feeser]

I was watching Boston Public last night and realized that Jeri Ryan has the exact 'triangular' nose that Sangiacomo is offended by. Personally, it doesn't detract from me finding her very, very attractive. Just like Kia's art.

[latvian_sparrow]

nice definition. To that I say read this:

<a href="http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Orientalism.html" target="_blank">http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Orientalism.html</a>

The Orient signifies a system of representations framed by political forces that brought the Orient into Western learning, Western consciousness, and Western empire. The Orient exists for the West, and is constructed by and in relation to the West. It is a mirror image of what is inferior and alien ("Other") to the West.
Orientalism is "a manner of regularized (or Orientalized) writing, vision, and study, dominated by imperatives, perspectives, and ideological biases ostensibly suited to the Orient." It is the image of the 'Orient' expressed as an entire system of thought and scholarship.

The Oriental is the person represented by such thinking. The man is depicted as feminine, weak, yet strangely dangerous because poses a threat to white, Western women. The woman is both eager to be dominated and strikingly exotic. The Oriental is a single image, a sweeping generalization, a stereotype that crosses countless cultural and national boundaries.

Latent Orientalism is the unconscious, untouchable certainty about what the Orient is. Its basic content is static and unanimous. The Orient is seen as separate, eccentric, backward, silently different, sensual, and passive. It has a tendency towards despotism and away from progress. It displays feminine penetrability and supine malleability. Its progress and value are judged in terms of, and in comparison to, the West, so it is always the Other, the conquerable, and the inferior.

Manifest Orientalism is what is spoken and acted upon. It includes information and changes in knowledge about the Orient as well as policy decisions founded in Orientalist thinking. It is the expression in words and actions of Latent Orientalism.

Basically, I read a lot here about how they don't like Kia's noses. While that's all fine and good (everyone is entitled to express what they like and don't like)I seem to get the overall impression that y'all are complaining because its done by a MANGA artist from JAPAN... And thus, why I said that I seem to detect an overall "orientalism" bias on this board, especially concerning Asamiya's art. However, we all color our readings of message board posts with our own prejudices and expectations. My "coloring" of what I read is that if these noses had not been done by a Japanese Manga artist, there wouldn't be nearly so much kvetching about it.

[Wade @ Sighnub.com]

[quote] . My "coloring" of what I read is that if these noses had not been done by a Japanese Manga artist, there wouldn't be nearly so much kvetching about it.
<hr></blockquote>

Wow, I completely disagree with your assesment. I get the impression that overall ( with possibly two or three exceptions ) that it has everything to do with the nose itself and very little to do with the guy who drew it.

Most people just seem to be saying that it's a little annoying to look at it. I have seen very few, if any, discriminatory against manga artists comments.

[saiyanspider]

I still say all the nay Sayers dislike manga because of the over saturation of anime/manga stateside. there is a lot of lesser known manga/anime that people here would love. one in particular is grave of the fireflies. it's about a young boy and his baby sister's struggle to survive in Japan after the bomb. it has a really messed up ending, and is an excellent story.

[saiyanspider]

I disagree wade, this board and other's about kia on the x-men have had a very strong anti-anime/manga sentiment behind them. I think sparrow is replying to all of the boards not this one alone.

[Wade @ Sighnub.com]

[quote]Originally posted by saiyanspider:
<strong>I disagree wade, this board and other's about kia on the x-men have had a very strong anti-anime/manga sentiment behind them. I think sparrow is replying to all of the boards not this one alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well let me clarify my point...

I have heard very few people say Kia sucks.

I have heard a few say Kia's artwork sucks.

I have heard a few more people say that manga artists as a group aren't the best choice for American superheor comics.

My point was that I don't recall seeing anyone say Kia sucks and very few people saying manga sucks. There are people who don't like to see it on U.S. superheroes, but I can't recall seeing anyone say "All manga sucks all the time and the artists are all wankers."

[Andrew Kress]

This is the most pathetic, disappointing, and unprofessional article I have ever read regarding comics on the web.

[beetle]

I enjoy Manga...In fact I love Shirow and one of my favorite series is Blade of the Immortal. I love the artowrk on that series. I just don't like the noses. Is that so bad that i don't like them? The rest of his artwork is ok. I just don't like it. It's not gonna stop me form buying X-men...i like the stories and characters. Does this make me generalize and say i know what all orientals are about. No. And i don't presume to, even though i enjoy reading about japanese culture. :)

[doom]

nose-er, i don't like 'em.

maybe his giant noses are an attempt to compensate for a lack of noses in manga?

at any rate, i will have to see if the writing will keep me buying the title because the schnoz thing is a turn off of my comic buying dollar.

[Morlun]

[quote]Originally posted by Andrew Kress:
<strong>This is the most pathetic, disappointing, and unprofessional article I have ever read regarding comics on the web.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not an article. It's an opinion column. And opinions are to be respected, even if you don't agree with them.

[danzo]

[quote]Originally posted by Andrew Kress:
This is the most pathetic, disappointing, and unprofessional article I have ever read regarding comics on the web.<hr></blockquote>um, how is it unprofessional? huh? what? oh, and in case anyone's wondering; i do like Kia's art- except for those damn ugly very distracting noses! heck, i don't really care what style an artist works in, just so long as it's good.
oh, yeah- Jeri Ryan's nose is nothing like that, sure it's pointy, but it ain't pyramidal or large....sigh.

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by danzo:
<strong>oh, yeah- Jeri Ryan's nose is nothing like that, sure it's pointy, but it ain't pyramidal or large....sigh.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Actually, her nose ain't what most people take notice of when they look at Jeri Ryan.

[J Wyatt]

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
<strong>

the scary thing though is that there are actually women like that in real life. of course, 100% plastic, but it's still . . . semi-realistic</strong><hr></blockquote>

Summer Cummings and Minka are two extreme real-life examples.