JIC: DEDICATED TO MAGGOT [Archive]

MattBrady

06-14-2003, 08:44 AM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/exh-marvel-maggot.jpg" width="167" height="354" border="0" hspace="2" align="right">by Mike Sangiacomo

I've been reading reader feedback on the Internet to my work and the works of others for quite some time.

It's pretty discouraging to hear people trash everything - and I mean everything.

I remember reading fans trash Alan Moore and Alex Ross, Alan Moore and Alex Ross!! How can anyone trash them?

But someone did.

So being the glutton for punishment that I am, I’ve decided that there must be something that everyone agrees on. I'm looking for a few statements that, in the words of the ancient scholars, would always be true, besides, "These things too shall pass away."

I want to see if there is any statement, about any creator, any comic, anything in he field that everyone agrees on. What brought this on was <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=00066 5" target="_blank"> last week</a> I wrote about a guy at the Philly convention who thought Maggot was a great character and mourned his demise.

There goes another truism. I would have almost bet a buck that no one liked Maggot. Come on, he was a guy with a couple of snails for a digestive system, what’s to like? I mean, Joe Kelly and Steve Seagle are pretty great writers, and nice guys, but Maggot, who came out of their X-Men run wasn’t exactly the next Spider-Man. Yeah, yeah, the X-Men's catchphrase has been "All new and all different," but Maggot just kind of slipped into "all new and too different!"

So here are a few suggestions, tell me if you disagree and/or suggest your own.

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.
2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.
3) Maggot sucks.
4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.
5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.
6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.
7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.
8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.
9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,
10) That last Batman movie really sucked.
11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.
12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.
13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.
15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

There, I can’t imagine anyone disagreeing with any of those statements, but I know someone will. Let’s see if one survives the onslaught until next week.

Meanwhile:

Heroes Anonymous #1, Super Group Therapy (Bongo)

This is an interesting concept from Bill Morrison (Roswell, Simpsons and Futurama comics) and Scott Gimple (creator of Saturday morning cartoon Fillmore.) Superheroes in a group therapy session talking about their woes and anxieties. The first issue’s session is interrupted when Attaboy, former sidekick, comes crashing through the window.

Sadly, the concept of the comic is better than the execution. Attaboy’s tale should be quick and funny, but it goes on and on and all the humor is sucked out of it.

While it’s always fun to see parodies of iconic heroes, Morrison and Gimple bring little new to the table.

JLA: Age of Wonder Better than usual Elseworlds look at the turn of the century, not the one three years ago but the one before that.

Wonder Woman #192 (DC) Walt Simonson and Jerry Ordway are making WW cool again.

The Eternal #1 (Marvel/Max, $2.99) This is the story of the first visit by The Eternals to Earth like it’s never been done before – with on screen sex.

The Eternal Ikaeden leads a raiding party to Earth to steal proto-humans and see if they could be evolved into good slaves. His buddies get the hots for Earth women and next thing we know; a whole new race is born.

The last Eternals series in the 1970s was something of a bore, by naming this series after one Eternal and not a crop, we get a more personal view of the history of the world, as told by Marvel evolutionist Chuck Austen. Powerful pencils by Kev Walker complete the package

It’s certainly not for everyone, and it’s not for anyone under 18 or so. They won’t be teaching this version of evolution in school.

Letdowns:

Beware The Creeper (DC/Vertigo) Good advice.

Spider-Girl #61 (Marvel) “We’re alive for at least five more issues,” too bad the storyline is so weak.

Black Panther #60 The fake Panther and the real Panther...forget it. It’s getting canceled anyway.

And to end with something sure to be controversial, try this one on: I’m one of the apparently few who’s liking Namor. It’s sort of a combination of Disney and Marvel, a fishy romance tail with very cool art. But did people really surf in the 1920s?

Michael Sangiacomo is a statewide news reporter for the Plain Dealer newspaper in Cleveland, Ohio. His syndicated "Journey Into Comics" weekly column on the state of the comic book business, can be found in newspapers and at the Newsarama website. His monthly comic book column appears the first Saturday of each month in the Plain Dealer Arts page and is syndicated through Newhouse Newspapers. He also writes a twice-monthly audiobooks review column covering crime thrillers and mysteries that can be seen at <a href="http://www.audiobookstoday.com" target="_blank">www.audiobookstoday.com</a>. He currently is developing Nowhere Man for Marvel’s Epic imprint.

Bobby Drake

06-14-2003, 09:04 AM

I liked maggot! :p

Pascal

06-14-2003, 09:13 AM

And these are my replys:

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Agreed. Who doesn't?

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Agreed. Who doesn't?

3) Maggot sucks.

Never read a book with her, so I cannot comment on that.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

They were great. But the best team? I don't know...

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

No, there shouldn't.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Didn't read it.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Agreed. They were amazing. Though I can't stand Byrne.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I don't know. I think many people will be disappointed because of all the anticipation over the years. The art certainly will be, but I'm not so sure about the story.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

Really? I don't know.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Agreed!!!

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

It was. Fantastic movie. Only the pacing could have been better.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

The last one sucked. The third movie was nice entertainment. Though it was no "real" Superman movie.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

His comic books will always be late and he writes regular series only for about ten issues. But sure, he's funny.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

He is. But don't you think that's a bit much to say for someone who is concerned about the "trashing of creators"?

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

He's an idiot and a bad writer.

Pascal

Bullwinkle

06-14-2003, 09:31 AM

The only one I really disagree with is number 14 ....

Rob Liefeld may not be today's news, but I honestly would not and could not write him off as a has-been. I always think he might surprise us and therefore he registers as a could-be-again .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D

- Chris

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 09:52 AM

"2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above."

He's a great illustrator. Normally I try not to make a distinction between the two, but I think what people (including me) love about Ross' work is more a matter of craft and style than its value as "Art".

"3) Maggot sucks."

I thought his slugs did that for him. :confused:

"5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones."

I'm sure you'll find some individuals - probably obvious nutcases named Lee or Jones - who'll disagree with this one.

"9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,"

Although I'd be inclined to agree with this, I'm sure there are others (including torch-bearers like the AFA) who disgree. Conflicting standards of "better", and all.

"11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie."

If by "the first movie" you mean William Lincoln's first zoopraxiscope, or Tom Edison's first kinetoscope, I'd definitely have to agree.

"14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news."

He wasn't really newsworthy even then, except in the "Man Bites Dog" sense.

I'd like to suggest an additional one:
16) Epic should approve my proposal.
(The word "my" referring to each individual's own, not mine... if Epic approves either of <a href="http://toddverbeek.com/EpicMine.html" target="_blank">mine</a>, I am quite confident there will be dissenting opinions over it. I'd be rather disappointed if there weren't.)

El Argentino

06-14-2003, 09:55 AM

JLA/Avengers will suck! No the art but the writting, Sure thing the dialogues will be very '70 with giants monsters or something like that!

Come on! Rigth now it's Ultimates style!

Gelogurte

06-14-2003, 10:00 AM

Gelogurte

06-14-2003, 10:07 AM

Gelogurte

06-14-2003, 10:16 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by El Argentino:
JLA/Avengers will suck! No the art but the writting, Sure thing the dialogues will be very '70 with giants monsters or something like that!

Come on! Rigth now it's Ultimates style!<hr /></blockquote>Well, I kinda agree. I think giant monsters will always be cool and George Pérez is an amazing artist but I'm not a fan of Kurt Busiek. He comes up with neat ideas but his style... it's too old fashioned. I mean, he writes EVERY LITTLE THING! It's like the art is just there! Specially in his run on Avengers with Pérez. He doesn't let the artist tell the story too. In the middle of the action, he stops just to show what Firestar or Wasp are thinking, it kinda bores me. It's always "Oh, I think I'll do this but I'don't know if it'll work. Oh my God! The doubt!" or "Oh, he's not trusting his instincts, I better talk to him. Now I'll sure do this, this and this to end up this battle!".

I'm really REALLY enjoying Ultimates too!

LFKittsteiner

06-14-2003, 10:18 AM

I always thought that Superman IV was the worst of them all... I mean, Superman III at least had a Good Supes/Bad Supes fight, but Superman IV had that obnoxious Luthor nephew (even more annoying than Richard Pryor), the "magic kiss", Superman rebuilding walls just by looking at them, crappy special effects, etc.

LFKO.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 10:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But did people really surf in the 1920s?<hr /></blockquote>Surfing dates back to prehistoric times in the Hawai'ian islands, and was observed by the first Europeans/Americans to visit. Christian missionaries did their best to kill the tradition (on the grounds that it was hedonistic), but it re-emerged as a recreational activity in Hawai'i around the turn of the century (20th), and was picked up in California in the 20's and 30's. It didn't catch on as a popular activity until after WWII.

Rand

06-14-2003, 10:23 AM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Haven't really read much of his work. I'd contest the 'greatest' part, but he's a great writer from what I've read so far.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

... I don't like his work much, it's too... "real" in some cases, but he's really good. No question about that. Just a matter of taste.

3) Maggot sucks.

See, I don't know about that one. I never really liked him much, but I have a friend who was a HUGE fan. He actually role-played the character in our online RPG. So...

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Uh... haven't really read much of those stories, but I'm liking the Waid run right now. The Claremont one wasn't too bad either.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Heh.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Jim Shooter is cool! Haven't read his stuff on Valiant.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Uncontestable.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

YES!

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

OH, YES!

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

On a roll here.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Whee!

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

... but the TV show is supposed to be pretty good.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

No arguments here.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Hm. No, not really. Otherwise his work wouldn't stir up pages and pages of fan comments?

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Yep!

L'Zoril

06-14-2003, 10:29 AM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

The greatest

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

In his style, no one can get even near to him.

3) Maggot sucks.

Indeed he did

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Mmmm.... ok. Yes, I'll go with that one.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Yes they did but I can't stand either of them. Also Claremont's endless dialogues didn't work for me

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

Don't know.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

Don't think so. I'll stick with the 80's. But right now they're pretty good.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

It sucked ass.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Yep. Next!

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

His movies are funnier than him. I see his work with Jay Leno and though I like it I don't find it as nearly as funny as his movies.

Meat&2veg

06-14-2003, 10:30 AM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Absolutely!!!

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Totally disagree. Alex has a nice style, but can't draw without a thousand photographs. He definately deserves some of the attention he's getting, but one of the greatest? When he can draw without a photo, we'll see.

3) Maggot sucks.

Can't really remember the character.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Absolutely!!

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

C'mon Matt, you can do better than this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

I think Jim was a great as far as storytelling and ideas. He produced readable and readilly accessible comics. Had no idea about any visual astetics.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Yep!

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

10 years ago I'd have been excited.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

Define "better", Matt. If by better there are more comics YOU like then all well and good, but accessibility is pretty much shot to hell, creators and publishers alike don't give a damn about being professional. Exceptions being Crossgen and Tokyopop.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

I think there is only one person in the world who would disagree with that and he's the person responsible for not having a decent Batman film out right now (and I don't mean Paul Levitz).

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Yeah.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Superman 3 was funny, more a Richard Pryor film guest-starring superman.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

I guess.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

I wish, but bad pennies are always hard to get rid of.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Bill and Joe have shaken up comics, thats for sure. My daughter loves "NAMOR" and keeps wanting me to pick up the next issue. That goes a long way in my book.

Pascal

06-14-2003, 10:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gelogurte:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pascal:
3) Maggot sucks.
Never read a book with her, so I cannot comment on that.
<hr /></blockquote>Excuse me... you never read a book with HIM!<hr /></blockquote>Uhmmm... Okay.

Pascal

littlewolvie

06-14-2003, 10:36 AM

For the most part, I agree, except maybe for these two.

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

I'm certainly not saying he's not a great writer. But the greatest? Nope, not for me.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.

Not for me. Maybe to somebody who's only been reading them for 4 or 5 years. I agree there are some great books out there. But a lot of those socalled great books everybody (or rather Wizard says it, so I have to believe it) is talking about just don't do it for me. To be honest, I prefered a lot of the 80's and 90's books over today's comics. But hey, that's just me.

Pascal

06-14-2003, 10:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Meat&2veg:
1)C'mon Matt, you can do better than this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Define "better", Matt.<hr /></blockquote>Uhmm, you mean Mike. Not Matt.

Pascal

Pascal

06-14-2003, 10:54 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by littlewolvie:
Not for me. Maybe to somebody who's only been reading them for 4 or 5 years. I agree there are some great books out there. But a lot of those socalled great books everybody (or rather Wizard says it, so I have to believe it) is talking about just don't do it for me.<hr /></blockquote>I agree. The most talked about books don't do it for me, too. Wizard dominates - in my opinion - what readers consider "hot". It's almost like in the music business, where everybody thinks that the only music that is worth anything can be found in the charts.

Maybe I'm just not a mainstream guy.

Pascal

pickard

06-14-2003, 10:55 AM

Norman Rockwell usually worked from photo reference. Does that mean he wasn't a great illustrator? Most illustrators striving for photorealism work from photo or live models.

Why do you care how the artist created the work? All that matters is the result. And the result, with this artist, is always beautiful.
=======================================
Now, on with the countdown...

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.
Let's stick with "one of the greatest" for now.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.
Yes. You'll get debate on this, because he became so successful that the predictable backlash has kicked in. It's what society does.

3) Maggot sucks.
I didn't care enough to develop that strong an opinion, but I'll take your word on it.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.
Though I think Byrne's run reached greater heights, it was because he was standing on the shoulders of those giants.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.
Especially Lee.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.
Yes, it was good stuff.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.
Here's the one statement you'll probably get the least debate on.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.
Most likely.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.
You're probably right, but the 80s were a wonderful time as well.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.
I agree, but you could have used a stronger word than "sucked".

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.
Abso-frickin-lutely!

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.
They both sucked, but especially the fourth one.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
Perhaps his comics will be on-time when his Hollywood career dies. We'll see.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.
Rob who?

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.
He sure tries hard enough to be.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 11:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by littlewolvie:
9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.

Not for me. Maybe to somebody who's only been reading them for 4 or 5 years. I agree there are some great books out there. But a lot of those socalled great books everybody (or rather Wizard says it, so I have to believe it) is talking about just don't do it for me. To be honest, I prefered a lot of the 80's and 90's books over today's comics. But hey, that's just me.<hr /></blockquote>Oh who cares what Wizard is saying? Obviously they're going to say current books are the best because that's where their bread is buttered and its what their readers want to hear. But I doubt Mike has Wizard's latest "hot stuff" list in mind when he says this. I've been reading comics (with a couple interruptions) since about 1970, and despite some really good stuff in the intervening third of a century, I see at least as many quality comics being produced today. Wizard doesn't cover most of those (because they're not where Wizard gets its ad revenues and they're not the kinds of books their readers are interested in).

Kyle Rivest

06-14-2003, 11:06 AM

1) Agreed
2) Disagree.
3) Who cares?
4) Who cares?
5) The hell?
6) I dunno.
7) Disagree.
8) Disagree and who cares?
9) Depends on which comics you're reading
10) That goes without saying.
11) Sure.
12) Yup.
13) He's not that funny, but the comics will be late.
14) Considering he hasn't done anything this century, that goes without saying as well.
15) Jemas presents himself as controversial. There's a differance between being and trying.

Mike Wimmer

06-14-2003, 11:14 AM

ok here goes.

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

I really have not read mch of his work due to money constraints and my personal taste but it would be hard for me to say hes the greatest with what little knowledge i know of him

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Yeah i agree i love his work.
3) Maggot sucks
Agreed
4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.
Again i have not read there work becuase i only have so much money but IF and this is a bif IF but if Waid can stay on there long enough he could have a pretty awesome run.
7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.
Agreed Their run was something indeed but i actually liked Claremont and Lee a little better.
8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing
I disagree i like George Perez but im no fan of Kurt Busiek
9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,
Since i really only started reading in the 90's i would say yes and no. I think that there are more quality books but that said there is still a heavy dose of crap (Marville)
13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
Agreed but if i may i would like to see any fan that thinks they can juggle a wife who im sure he would like to spend time with and a blockbuster movie. I dont condone his lateness and i would rather see any series he is connected too turned in finished before its solicited.

Also if i may I know this is your opinion but some people may and this may shock you Mike but they may actually disagree with you or have different tastes. Dont rip on people because they disagree with your tastes.

tralfaz

06-14-2003, 11:17 AM

We interupt this thread with an tapped phone line of a hollywood producer

I like Maggot...

I do...

what? He died, when?

FUCK!!! Someone get Alan Moore on the phone... and Alex Ross for that matter. We need to get Maggot back.

We'll put Maggot in the next X-men flick and call it X-men: Revenge of the Worms and cast Chris Rock as Maggot.

While we're at it we'll have Rob Liefeld do the art for a comic adaptation... of course I want it to come out on time. SO you think we're better off going with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby? Fine, find them, if not them get that Claremont fellow and that crazy gunslinger John Byrne...

what? who's gonna write X3? I dunno, how bout that Smith fellow... Kevin...
yeah, we'll make it a comedy like Superman 3. Dont you understand the rules, as the number gets higher, the funnier it gets. thats the rule.

hold on, I got a phone call..

who is it? Jemas? Tell him IM having lunch with Shooter... yeah, that'll piss him off, Shooter would make Marvel fly while all Jemas is doin is parlor tricks, amatuer stuff... yeah im not here..

you still there?

Ok, so that's th plan:
X-men 3: Revenge of the Worms

Chris Rock as Maggot

we'll get Alan Moore and Alex Ross to make a mini about his origins and his return

And Lee and Kirby on the comic adaptation of the movie... I dont care if the artist is dead, get them!!!

ANd we'll get Smith to write it.. by the time he's done it'll be 2008, plenty of time to find Kirby

gOgIver

06-14-2003, 11:20 AM

Hey, Maggot is right up there with Marrow.

JK Parkin

06-14-2003, 11:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tralfaz:
We interupt this thread with an tapped phone line of a hollywood producer

I like Maggot...

I do...

what? He died, when?

FUCK!!! Someone get Alan Moore on the phone... and Alex Ross for that matter. We need to get Maggot back.

We'll put Maggot in the next X-men flick and call it X-men: Revenge of the Worms and cast Chris Rock as Maggot.

While we're at it we'll have Rob Liefeld do the art for a comic adaptation... of course I want it to come out on time. SO you think we're better off going with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby? Fine, find them, if not them get that Claremont fellow and that crazy gunslinger John Byrne...

what? who's gonna write X3? I dunno, how bout that Smith fellow... Kevin...
yeah, we'll make it a comedy like Superman 3. Dont you understand the rules, as the number gets higher, the funnier it gets. thats the rule.

hold on, I got a phone call..

who is it? Jemas? Tell him IM having lunch with Shooter... yeah, that'll piss him off, Shooter would make Marvel fly while all Jemas is doin is parlor tricks, amatuer stuff... yeah im not here..

you still there?

Ok, so that's th plan:
X-men 3: Revenge of the Worms

Chris Rock as Maggot

we'll get Alan Moore and Alex Ross to make a mini about his origins and his return

And Lee and Kirby on the comic adaptation of the movie... I dont care if the artist is dead, get them!!!

ANd we'll get Smith to write it.. by the time he's done it'll be 2008, plenty of time to find Kirby<hr /></blockquote>LOL! You rock, tralfaz!

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 11:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pickard:
Norman Rockwell usually worked from photo reference. Does that mean he wasn't a great illustrator? Most illustrators striving for photorealism work from photo or live models.

Why do you care how the artist created the work? All that matters is the result. And the result, with this artist, is always beautiful.<hr /></blockquote>The common criticism of Ross' work is that you call tell he works from photo reference, and in that sense, the "how" does matter, because it shows up in the work itself. It's not a fatal flaw (IMO), but it's a shortcoming nonetheless.

And I suspect that if Ross achieved the same effect by using Photoshop to add costumes and special effects and a watercolor "texture" to photographs of people posing, you'd admire the result less. Whether "how" should matter or not is open to debate, but I think it does.

As for Norman Rockwell, while I love his work for its craft and storytelling, and would sell my soul and even sleep with my ex-step-mother-in-law (and for me it'd be especially traumatic because I'm gay, not to mention she lives a 900-mile drive from here) to be able to produce pictures like his, I couldn't help noticing that over the course of two semesters studying 20th-century art, his name never came up.

mmbomber

06-14-2003, 11:39 AM

Alex Ross meticulously apes Norman Rockwells style which just so happens to lend itself to comicbooks and is labeled a great artist and a genius. That's just great. What an original. Sorry, I disagree, sure it was a great gimmick but its played itself out.
Alan Moore on the other hand deserves all the accolades and truly is THE greatest writer comics have ever seen. Yes, better than Neil Gaiman(who knows this himself and would probably tell you the same.)

Jace

Franklin Harris

06-14-2003, 11:39 AM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Agreed.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

He is a good artist, not a great one. For paintings of models in costumes, his characters are all unaccountably soulless. Oddly, there is more life in his takes on anime characters ("Battle of the Planets"), which probably means he should use more imagination and less "photo-realism."

3) Maggot sucks.

As did every new X-Men character of that era.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Yes.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

You see, that's just stupid.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Um, no.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Well, except for all of the space opera undermining the core concept of the book.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I don't answer hypotheticals.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.

A decade and a half.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

They all suck except for the animated ones and the Adam West one.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

I agree, but many don't.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Yes, but the one with Pryor was better than "The Quest for Peace."

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Half true.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century?s news.

He was never news. He was hype.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Not really. He just plays one on TV.

Johnny Triangles

06-14-2003, 11:45 AM

1. Alan Moore is one of the greatest, I agree.

2. Alex Ross is a great ILLUSTRATOR, but not a great ARTIST. There's a difference. His work always seems stiff and soulless to me, even though it IS very photorealistic.

3. Maggott does suck. If you can't kill that character, who can you kill?

4. This may seem blasphemous, but I think Kirby is a little overrated.

5. Moratorium on Lee and Jones. I dunno.

6. Shooter's Valiant was Amazing.

7. Claremont and Byrne DID do an Amazing job on X-Men. I think this'll be your greatest shot at a unanimous agreement.

8. JLA/Avengers is going to be written by Busiek, so that automatically makes it middling at best. Unlike most comic fans, I need more than slavish adherence to continuity to be satisfied by a story.

9-15) I agree.

Johnny Triangles

06-14-2003, 11:53 AM

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

Don't think so. I'll stick with the 80's. But right now they're pretty good.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

Well, since the 80s were DECADES ago, I'm guessing you DO agree.

Hdefined

06-14-2003, 11:53 AM

The current Namor series sucks Maggot's asshole!

And Maggot wasn't created during the Kelly/Seagle run, it was Scott Lobdell's creation (and Joe Mad's). Der.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 11:57 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
Well, since the 80s were DECADES ago, I'm guessing you DO agree.<hr /></blockquote>Um, no. The 1980's ended in December 1989, which was only about 13.5 years ago. You need at least two (2) to have "decades". If you're going to attempt literalist reinterpretation, kindly get it right. :)

tralfaz

06-14-2003, 12:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
Well, since the 80s were DECADES ago, I'm guessing you DO agree.<hr /></blockquote>Um, no. The 1980's ended in December 1989, which was only about 13.5 years ago. You need at least two (2) to have "decades". If you're going to attempt literalist reinterpretation, kindly get it right. :) <hr /></blockquote>then you will understand that there was no year 0 and the 80s actually ended in 1990. anyone that believes that the new millenium started in 2000 is a moron... hmmm, that makes about 98% of the world, interesting

Redmond

06-14-2003, 12:05 PM

I think some of Alan Moore's stuff is way too self-indulgent and I thought Watchmen was okay. I think he never gets bashed because he never works on hugely commercial properties like say Spider-Man. So when you are reading an Alan Moore story it's always by personal choice, it's never "forced" on anyone.

Creators who tend to get bashed are always put-up in your face on titles people collect way before their arrivals.

Redmond

06-14-2003, 12:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tralfaz:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
Well, since the 80s were DECADES ago, I'm guessing you DO agree.<hr /></blockquote>Um, no. The 1980's ended in December 1989, which was only about 13.5 years ago. You need at least two (2) to have "decades". If you're going to attempt literalist reinterpretation, kindly get it right. :) <hr /></blockquote>then you will understand that there was no year 0 and the 80s actually ended in 1990. anyone that believes that the new millenium started in 2000 is a moron... hmmm, that makes about 98% of the world, interesting<hr /></blockquote>Patato... Potato!

tralfaz

06-14-2003, 12:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think he never gets bashed because he never works on hugely commercial properties like say Spider-Man <hr /></blockquote>What, Batman and SUperman aint commercial enough for you?

can I have my patatos fried and the potatos baked?

shakey

06-14-2003, 12:14 PM

Of course Stan and Jack were the best to ever write FF, they pushed the envelope, allowing others to follow.

BTW Redmond, two of Alan Moore's best stories were written about that very non-commercial hero
Superman . If you didn't know, he's been angry at Marvel since the early 80's for being screwed on
Captian Britan.

He also had a Kingdom Come like epic in mind for the DC characters called "Twilight" that MGT passed on.

shakey

06-14-2003, 12:18 PM

Not to mention Batman: The Killing Joke featuring
those two non commercial characters Bats and the Joker.

Allen Berrebbi

06-14-2003, 12:41 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Unquestioned. He is the standard. He can write complex, thought provoking issues AND still keep them entertaining, something all the wannabes fail to do.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Also a given. He, more than anyone lately, lets us see what the heroes would look like if they existed. What could be cooler than that?

3) Maggot sucks.

A horrible character. Another one of those heroes where the creator is more concerned on showing everyone how clever they can be than entertaining. We are in the entertainment business people.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Without a doubt. Perhaps the greatest run on any title, period. We are still rehashing their concepts over and over again.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Nonsense question.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

When he was there, the books were great and engaging. When he left, even thoguh the popularity went up for a while, the stories plummeted in quality.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Another one of the all time great runs. I miss John Byrne's art from that time period. He was the master at fight scenes.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

No idea. It will be tough to match the hype but the talent is capable.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

The biggest fallacy in comics today, started and perpetuated by creators who WANT THIS TO BE TRUE. Was it this decade that had the following?:

Watchmen
Dark Knight
Batman Year One
Miller's Daredevil
Byrne's FF
Nexus
Jon Sable
Claremont and Byrne's XMen
Miracleman

etc. etc.

Plus from the 40s to the 70s, while not as MATURE as we might like them to be, the comics were a hell of a lot more fun.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

They all sucked, but the last one was the worst.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Yes, but the pacing was off. Still a very good movie.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Absolutely. 4 was worse than 3. It started in the middle of Superman 2, when Donner was kicked off (I would love to see his Directors cut for that one). Though the Superman / Clark fight was cool.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Agreed.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

You never know with fans today.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Who insults the intelligence of fans everywhere.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 12:50 PM

metcalfe1000

06-14-2003, 12:52 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Definitely one of greatest writers in comics. I'd put Neil Gaiman on that list as well.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Definitely - Ross is a great artist.

3) Maggot sucks.

Never read many stories about this character, but didn't like those I did.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Hard to say. They created the basic concepts that everyone has used. But Byrne (back when he was still on the top of his game) evolved those concepts to great effect.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Stupid point. As long at they are talented, keep bringing the Lees and Joneses on.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Didn't do much for me. I loved his Superboy/Legion of Super-Heroes stories and some of his Avengers work. That's about it. He's way overrated.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Yep - the best the X-Men have ever been.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I sure hope so. The hype is to the max, which may make the book suffer. But the talent is great. Let's hope so.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

Each decade has had some great comics. I can find great work in each of the decades. It seems stories were more imaginative (even while being sillier) in the '60s-early '80s.

I am so tired of the darkness that came out of the late '80s/early '90s. While Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Miracleman, V for Vendetta, and Batman Year One, and Daredevil were great in varying degrees -- so much of what they inspired was total crap.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

For the most part. Uma Thurman was great as Poison Ivy. Everything else sucked.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

yea, but both were good. Both had flaws, but both were good.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Yep, they did. I loved the first two.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Yep, although I haven't enjoyed the Spider-Man/Black Cat mini-series as much.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Didn't people say that about Jim Shooter once?

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

I think his tactics with the fans are horrible, but overall I don't think about him.

Barry

06-14-2003, 12:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:


So here are a few suggestions, tell me if you disagree and/or suggest your own.

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Agreed.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Agreed.

3) Maggot sucks.

Know nothing about the character, so I'm not qualified to answer.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Agreed.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

LOL. Agreed.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

See answer to #3.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Agreed.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I hope so!

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.

If by decades, you mean since the 1980's, then agreed.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Agreed.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Agreed.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Agreed, but the one after was even worse.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Agreed.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Agreed.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Agreed.

[/i]<hr /></blockquote>So I guess this means one of two things: 1) There are, in fact, some absolute truths or 2) I'm just another sheep that goes along with what everyone else thinks.

Steve Jamrozik

06-14-2003, 01:13 PM

15. Controversial in a manufactured MTV/WWF way.
13. Not too funny. Always late.
11. I disagree. X2 made good use of Magneto and Mystique. Otherwise, I didn't like it.
9. I don't know about this. In the 30's and 40's, you had the birth of the format. In the 50's and 60's, you had EC's and the return of superheroes. In the 80's, you had works that reached a mass audience again. I don't see what is going to have that effect in two decades.
7. They followed the same elements of the Thomas, Adams, and Palmer X-Men, different locales, each issue leads into the next, the mixing of old and new villains. Pretty good - yes. Great - overstatement.
6. No. It was the New New Universe.
4. If you disagree with this statement, ask any of the creators who worked on the book.

jclem3

06-14-2003, 01:15 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

He's certainly one of the greatest but to say that he's THE greatest may be a bit too much. I would think that Gaiman, Bendis and a couple more could be considered as THE greatest.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

No ifs and buts about that. The man has definitely revolutionized the industry. Anything he works on is a cash machine.

3) Maggot sucks.

I would tend to agree with this. I don't know what people were smoking when they created this guy.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Again, one of the best teams. But the Byrne run wasn't anything to sneeze at either.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

What the...????

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Never read the stuff but loved him when he was still EIC of Marvel.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

No questions about it. Their run was the definitive X-Men run bar none. Morrisson included.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I'd like to say yes but until I'm holding all three books in my hands, I wouldn't even venture to guess. However, being a Perez junkie, I don't care as long as I get his work in my hands.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

I don't know about the decades qualifier but it has definitely improved within the last 5 years.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Sadly, it did. The first one was great and I liked the third one too. But Shumacher really burned that franchise almost to the point of no recognition.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

I agree with this. I liked this one better. Although both moview made too much of a pansy of Xavier. I'd like to see him flex some muscle in the next movie.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Only the first and second movie were great. They should have stopped there.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

He's funny but late books aren't.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

This is a bit premature to say. I hate to admit it but I think he can still command some attention.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Friggin' idiot. Thanks for cutting trees to publish Marville you piece of $#!t!
[/QB][/QUOTE]

Michael P

06-14-2003, 01:18 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics: True.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above: Definitely has a great technical aptitude. I like his covers and pinups better than I like his interiors, though.

3) Maggot sucks: I thought what the writers did with him was kinda weak, but his power was cool. And really, is it that much different from the kinds of stuff Morrison is doing these days?

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four: As of now, yes. But I'm betting Waid and 'Ringo can at least make 'em sweat.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones: Why? Because you can't tell them apart?

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing: Never read it, but never heard anything contrary.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when: Damn right.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing: Looks that way.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades: Define "decades."

10) That last Batman movie really sucked: Yep.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie: True. Making it that movie and The Empire Strikes Back.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor: Yes indeedy (although honestly, I thought 4 was the worst of the two).

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late: True.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news: We can only hope.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy: Gee, ya think?

Captain Slinky

06-14-2003, 01:25 PM

Those are all pretty far-out opinions to start with... how about we start slow with something easier, like having us all agree that comic books are traditionaly made of paper? Nah... someone will disagree, I'm sure...

Tom Daylight

06-14-2003, 01:28 PM

Statements which I'm not qualified to comment on are omitted...

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

agreed

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

he's a good artist but his work does nothing for me

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

undeniable

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

*yawn*

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

in a while. But you're going to get a lot of people disagreeing with that anyway :p

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

I don't think anyone's going to disagree with that one.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

yeah

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

heheheh

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

I'd like to think not... but yes.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

I dunno. I spent a solid five minutes yesterday laughing, unprovoked, about some of the things he's done over the past year...

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Not controversial enough if you ask me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

tralfaz

06-14-2003, 01:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tralfaz:
then you will understand that there was no year 0 and the 80s actually ended in 1990.<hr /></blockquote>Nice try, but also incorrect. We're not talking the "20th" this or the "199th" that, in which case you might actually have a point (albeit an unoriginal one). We're talking about "the Nineteen Eighties", which - by definition a priori - refers to the 10 years with the words "nineteen eighty" in their name. There's a one-year difference between "the 1900's" and "the 20th Century"; don't say one when you mean the other.<hr /></blockquote>touche'

but the 2000 is still not the beginning of the new century... and stop being so damn condescending
<blockquote>quote:<hr />(albeit an unoriginal one). <hr /></blockquote>

Morlun

06-14-2003, 01:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike Sangiacomo:
Spider-Girl #61 (Marvel) “We’re alive for at least five more issues,” too bad the storyline is so weak.<hr /></blockquote>Uh... no it isn't. :)

I really don't give a rat's ass about the 15 points list, but here I really disagree. :D

Kerouac

06-14-2003, 01:51 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

I'll agree with him being the greatest, hands down.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

For realistic paintings, yeah, he's fantastic. I prefer him just working covers myself, but Marvels and Kingdom Come are still great.

3) Maggot sucks.

He's a '90s X-Men character; there aren't many that don't.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Damn straight. Though Byrne was more than respectable and Waid's got a nice start going.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Heh.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Pretty obvious, since the company basically went straight to shit when he was removed.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Y'know, I don't think their material holds up very well after so much time, but taken in its context, it is pretty impressive.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I think it'll be good enough to justify its cover price, but past that, I can't say. I'm not a huge Busiek fan...

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

God, yes.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Uma Thurman made a nice Poison Ivy...And that's about it.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Agreed. Though there wasn't really anything wrong with the first one... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

I've never been impressed with any of them...

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Clearly.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

That would appear to be true simply because Liefeld hasn't produced anything since the last century...

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Yeah, sadly so.

Matt

L'Zoril

06-14-2003, 01:53 PM

SimonMoon5

06-14-2003, 02:07 PM

>9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

I can't possibly agree with that, and I can't believe anybody else would either. Comics have better *coloring* than they've ever had, but that's about it.

im-flynn

06-14-2003, 02:27 PM

I usually don't post, but i felt a need to weigh in on this.

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

he's great, but not the greatest. like most, he can't be on all the time, even though he's more consistant than most.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist.

well, he has interesting work. but for something that is so... life like, it certainly lacks any life at all. it seems so clinical. boring.

3) Maggot sucks.

i think any character has potential, if the story is good and the writer is willing to put in the effort.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

they're great in a time capsule sorta way, everything is a product of their time. i know i still enjoy reading their run.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

huh

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

never met him, but a lot of was pretty good.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

see answer 4. to bad i haven't found anything by them in the recent past that i want to read, or worth reading.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

i really hope so. i'll wait and see.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.

everything has its due in certain times. i think every era has its pros and cons

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

i work at a comic store. we put a small portfolio of his stuff from early Image on the outside widow sill, hoping someone would take it. it sat a whole month, night and day, before we brought it back in.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

who really cares. as long as he never writes another comic.

Beyerstein

06-14-2003, 02:44 PM

I love Rob Liefeld.

Krishna Sadasivam

06-14-2003, 03:32 PM

You're forgetting:

Priest and Bright's run on Power Man/Iron Fist -- an underrated set of classic issues. Nearly everyone who's
read the old PM/IF series would agree it was given the axe before it really had a chance to come back strong.

Cray_ws

06-14-2003, 03:58 PM

Everyone's got an opinion, I suppose I need to voice mine....

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics. Moore has by far radically changed the depth of sequentual storytelling. No one has come close to being able to produce quality writing in more genre you can shake a stick at.
2) Alex Ross is a great artist. He's a great artist, but there are many great artists out there. As for painted works, what about Jodorowsky, Ladronn, and Charest?
3) Maggot sucks. harshly put, probably was poorly named.
4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four. Never read their work.
5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones. Actually I think there should be a moratorium on assinine suggestions like this one.
6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing. Valiant books were pretty good, not stellar, but an entertaining read, however I'm not sure how much Shooter was the cause for that effect.
7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when. I've read their work, they did seem to hit a groove.
8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing. I can only hope it satisfies me, hard to do that when the anticipation has built up high expectations.
9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades In the time I've been an avid reader (since '91) things have gotten better in terms of quality writing & art. But the best is yet to come....
10) That last Batman movie really sucked. If your refering to one with Arnold...yea that sucked more than proffesional grade antique vacumn.
11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie. I was pleasantly suprised how much better the sequel was, infact I saw it 3 times in two days.
12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor. I vaguely remember the first Superman, but I do recall that each sequal got progressively worse, I love Richard Pryor as comedian, but He was a poor token black actor in horrible script.
13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late. Smith has some good movies, but he's totally disrespects the medium he claims to love. Late books are unacceptable, and I'm shocked and dismayed why other fellow writers/artists don't publically express contempt for his lateness. He's in it for his own greed, He's no ambassador to comics.
14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news. Rob Liefeld was never news, He was HYPE. and will always be HYPE.
15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy. What's so controversial about being an ass?

hork

06-14-2003, 04:06 PM

I think trying to find something everyone will agree on is like trying to find a completely honest man. I actually disagree with a lot of your statements.

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Diasgree. I haven't read enough of his stuff to make that claim, and I haven't been that impressed with what I have read.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

I don't know who that is.

3) Maggot sucks.

My only exposure to him was the Weapon X issue in which he died, but, I don't know, he seemed okay to me.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Disagree. Of course, I really don't like the FF, but I'd probably go with John Byrne.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Um, whatever.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

I think he did a good job period (as an editor, not a writer).

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Agree about Claremont, but I've never been a fan of Byrne's art (he draws everyone with really big foreheads and receding hair lines).

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

Don't know, but I do know I have no interest in it.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades

Yes and no. Some are much better. Others (like most Marvel comics) are definitely worse.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Agree (and so did the one before it).

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Agree.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Agree, sort of (I thought the fourth one was worse than the third one, which I almost kind of liked).

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Disagree on the first part, agree on the second.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Agreed.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Agreed.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 04:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Captain Slinky:
Those are all pretty far-out opinions to start with... how about we start slow with something easier, like having us all agree that comic books are traditionaly made of paper? Nah... someone will disagree, I'm sure...<hr /></blockquote>Scott McCloud says they were previously done in stone, deerskin, bark, tapestries, and stained glass. And if not for his disqualification of single-panel cartoons, the whole pre-Modern tradition of European painting and scultpure - in which every image was supposed to present a narrative - would count. This whole printed-on-paper business is a recent innovation. :)

L'Zoril

06-14-2003, 04:15 PM

GPM

06-14-2003, 04:19 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Yes, he is.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

I agree. He is the only artist that achieves the look of texture needed to make super-heroes look real.

3) Maggot sucks.
Never read a story with him, but since Joe Kelly's writing is so terrible on Superman and JLA I'd be willing to bet this character was lame.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

They were one of the best sure, but John Byrne's is right up there. I liked Roy Thomas' and George Perez's run too.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

It is a little confusing, but I'm not sure why you're letting it bother you.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Never read a Valiant comic.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Yep. It's never been the same since. I can't wait for their reunion on JLA.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I can't wait! Whooo-Hooo!

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

Better than the nineties, but I think the eighties were still better.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Well, yes it did. I thought Uma Thurman looked good though.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

I agree, but I think the first one was quite good as well.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Yeah, they were terrible.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Can't argue with that.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Unfortunately he was never any good so I'm not sure how he became a big name anyway.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

There's no controversy, the guy is a jerk.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 04:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lee Jones:
"5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones."
Actually I think there should be a moratorium on assinine suggestions like this one.<hr /></blockquote>Despite being such a humourless bastard myself, it amazes me how little tolerance some people have for what was obviously a lighthearted joke.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 04:26 PM

Pariah

06-14-2003, 04:27 PM

Mike, I think the only thing comic readers can agree on is that we all have the right to disagree.

Oh, and we all like to talk about comics.

I'd like to have the last word on all of this, but I'm sure someone will disagree with me now.

Drew Reiber

06-14-2003, 04:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.<hr /></blockquote>One of the? Sure. But his superhero work is overrated and repetitive in theme.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe he was before he started drawing 2-3 of the same physiques for every character. Oh, and that lame spotlight that comes out of nowhere shining on every character (even in the DARK!). In Marvels, his lighting was so much more inventive.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
3) Maggot sucks.<hr /></blockquote>Never read much of his original appearances. I can say, though, that the "suck" of a character usually lies in the ability of the writer to make one interesting. Who were the last ones to write him? Frank Tieri and Jay Faerber?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.<hr /></blockquote>Well, considering we wouldn't have 90% of the characters, concepts, plots, inspirations, creators or anything that resulted from their run without it... I would say yeah.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.<hr /></blockquote>Except a lot of the time he just stamped his name on other people's work, especially at Valiant. Go back and check the credits and see how big his listing is compared to the writers, artists, creators, etc....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when..<hr /></blockquote>Great job? Sure. Overrated, otherwise. Claremont's work was much more interesting in the 80's, post-Byrne. In terms of credit for ideas around the time, I still think Dave Cockrum got the short end of the stick.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.<hr /></blockquote>Damn straight.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,<hr /></blockquote>*decade* 15 years, tops. Too much crap for me to buy that it's better than the late 80's.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally written by Mike:
14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.<hr /></blockquote>He's the Mark Millar of penciling. Take that as you will.

Note: Mike, that's the most fun I've had with a Newsarama article in sometime. The interactive angle is awesome. Keep it up.

tralfaz

06-14-2003, 04:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tralfaz:
but the 2000 is still not the beginning of the new century...<hr /></blockquote>There are three kinds of people in the world: 1) Those who already understood this in 1998. 2) Those who heard this in 1999 and got it then. 3) Those who still didn't get this after hearing it over and over in 2000. Those in 1 & 2 obviously don't need you to explain it to them, and those in 3 will probably never understand. Belaboring it like this two years after it ceased to be timely seems rather pointless.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />and stop being so damn condescending<hr /></blockquote>Sorry. I tend to get cranky when someone "corrects" me incorrectly. How would you react if one of the folks you (rather condescendingly!) refer to as "morons" tried to tell you that this was the fourth year of the third millennium because you forgot to count 2000?

Exactly.<hr /></blockquote>Are you still talkin? what are you talking about? I stopped listening when I discovered that niether one of us where part of the 2%

kyle2503

06-14-2003, 05:06 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.
Agreed.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.
Also agreed.

3) Maggot sucks.
I wondered what he was even used for considering his short appearances everywhere and last killed in Weapon X. Then again, with a code-sign/name as Maggot, with powers and control over alien-like snail/worm creatures, what can you expect?

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.
Agreed. One of the best team of original creators. Not to insult the FF previous creative teams but the FF has gone through a lot of crappy creative teams considering the continuity and history (ref: kill Mr. Fantastic, bring him back again bla bla bla)

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.
Highly subjective and its not as if every Lee or Jones out there is a good writer/ artist.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.
Disagree. Didn't like his work, didn't stay on with his titles.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.
Agreed, though considering the lengthy and twisted continuity and storylines Claremont throws in, it'd take decades to decipher the entire story.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.
Considering that Kurt Busiek is one of the best writers for team stories out there, and George Perez's work on it, I'd think it would turn out quite good (at least George is better than Jim Starlin in large double-spread pages of large number of characters)

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades
Agreed. Where do you get radical writers like Mark Millar and Warren Ellis who gives you cinematic broad stories without the unnecessary burden of continuity.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.
Definitely agree!

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.
X2 really rock though the pacing could have been better with more characterization!

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.
Agreed!

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
Don't like his work, don't like the late production titles either.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.
So agreed! Who actually reads Liefield's work? He is a horrible writer and a horrible artist, with ridiculous shaped foots and his pacing of story is ridiculous! One thing I have to agree with Quesada is "never let an artist be a writer!"

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.
Radical would seem more likely, from a business perspective, at least he's keeping the company alive and steady and the Ultimate titles were a great move, repaint the house with no continuity but revised versions painted in new light/perspectives - at least its refreshing to see Wolvie and Cyke fighting over Jean being written in a 21st century social style and Spidey's school problems are definitely much more funny

"Finally! A hero on national television *pause*, but I'm grounded" - P. Parker

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 05:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tralfaz:
I stopped listening when I discovered that niether [sic] one of us where [sic] part of the 2%<hr /></blockquote>I guess half right is the most I can hope for. :rolleyes: Sorry to have expected too much of you.

tralfaz

06-14-2003, 05:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tralfaz:
I stopped listening when I discovered that niether [sic] one of us where [sic] part of the 2%<hr /></blockquote>I guess half right is the most I can hope for. :rolleyes: Sorry to have expected too much of you.<hr /></blockquote>sorry to disappoint. by the way nice website, needed a good laugh (your pictures from childhood) after being in the hospital for so long... and im not trying to be a dick... everyone looks silly when theyre kids

bluedevil2002

06-14-2003, 05:45 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

I'll go with one of. I haven't read enough of his work to say greatest.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

He's good. I like his work.

3) Maggot sucks.

I liked Maggott in the sense that he didn't annoy me, and the issue with his origin was actually a highlight of the otherwise mostly boring run by Kelly.

He died? Well, I didn't know about it, but I really don't care.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

I haven't read enough of anyone on FF to have an opinion on this.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Wouldn't hurt.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.\

Never read Valiant.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Three words: Dark Phoenix Saga. And if I'm not mistaken, the only stories on the cartoon that were near direct adaptations of comics were all Claremont/Byrne.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

Hell, yeah!

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

Storywise, and production values, yes. Direction that the industry is taken, um . . . still undecided.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

I can't think of a worse movie.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Yup.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

IV sucked. III wasn't too bad. It was easier to get past the comedy in that than Batman 4.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Yeah, I'll agree with this one.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

I'm not sure what this means, but I hope that he would improve on his drawing style. Namely, the fact that I DON'T NEED TO SEE EVERY TOOTH IN EVERY CHARACTER'S MOUTH!!

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

I would use other words, but to be fair, this is true.

Starsky_Hutch76

06-14-2003, 05:47 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.
Agreed. Especially his pre-crisis DC stuff. I wish HE'D been given Superman instead of Byrne.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.
And no one agrees with that more than Alex Ross <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

3) Maggot sucks.
He gets points for originality, though.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.
Agreed.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.
What's in a name?

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.
Didn't read it.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.
Agreed. Lets hope they can rescue the JLA from the horror it's become.
8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.
Agreed.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,
Strongly disagree. THey just look good in comparison to the 90s. THey're the worst buy for the money now. THe best era was the 80s.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.
Oh yeah. A day-glo freaking nightmare.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.
Haven't seen it.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Was the third one even a Superman movie? I thought it was a bad Richard Pryor movie with Superman cameos. THe fourth was the worst, though.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
I didn't even bother to see his last movie after sitting through Dogma.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.
yup.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.
No denying it.

Rich Johnston

06-14-2003, 06:04 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

AGREE

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

DISAGREE. I find his work very stiff, fighting against the world he portrays rather than complementing it. Slightly stylised fumetti.

3) Maggot sucks.

DISAGREE. I liked Maggott when Joe Kelly was writing him. A character with depth, history, a unique background in comics, and a truly original mutant power.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

DISAGREE. I preferred John Byrne writing and John Byrne drawing.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

DISGREE. Tony Lee is an up and coming creator...

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

DISAGREE. Most of it was pants.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

DISAGREE. There's a lot of nostalgia there. A good job, ahead of its time, and way ahead of other work at the time, but not a patch on current Morrison, who's work is what you remember Byrne and Claremont's being like, until you revisit it.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

DISAGREE. Haven't read either, but LOBO/AUTHORITY will be better...

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

MOSTLY AGREE. Emerging cartoonists are low on the ground though. No new Los Bros, Bagge, Jeff Smith, Roberta Gregory, Evan Dorkin or Dave Sim...

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

AGREE. And I didn't even see it.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

AGREE. But the beginning of 1 way was better than 2. And Patrick Stewart still can't act.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

DISAGREE. I loved the one with Richard Pryor. However, I may have been 10 at the time.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

AGREE

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

DISAGREE. Bloodsport, when it finally comes out, will get the headlines.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

DISAGREE. He's just a businessman looking to get publicity.

jawaplumber

06-14-2003, 06:22 PM

Charlie Hustle

06-14-2003, 06:27 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MattBrady:

It's pretty discouraging to hear people trash everything - and I mean everything.

"1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics."

Great writer yes. Stories are very hit and miss with me, but I always love his imagination. I think there are certain things he forces into a lot of his stories that don't work for me and honestly I'd even rather read a lot of Mignola's writing over his. Books like Tom Strong Promethea and Top Ten just aren't very entertaining to me

"2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above"

Too heavy on photo referencing for me. No growth in his work since Kingdom Come. Same problem i have with David Mack's artwork

"3) Maggot sucks."

Not terrible but nobody i miss. didn't even know he was dead. No worse than Bucky, Wonder Man, Strong Guy, and most of Spiderman's villains.

"4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four."

agreed.

"5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones."

lol

"6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing."

I only bought the barry windsor smith stuff (A & A) so i can't say.

"7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when."

still my favorite superhero comics.

"8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing."

hadn't heard about it. I don't really like the avengers so.. i'll wait and see

"9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,"

i thought i was the only one who thought that? There's more variety and more good to great writers (azarrelo, bendis, ellis, moore, morrison, gaiman coming back etc.) working at one time than i think there ever have been. There are more artistic styles than ever. Access to foreign books like humanoids and manga work is greater than ever.

"10) That last Batman movie really sucked."

that and armageddon - worst movies i've ever seen

"11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie."

by far. i thought the first one was weak.

"12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor."
13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

yep

"15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy."

i guess

Alan Coil

06-14-2003, 06:48 PM

Twice now, somebody has mentioned Matt Brady as the poster of this article. This is true. But the article was written by Mike Sangiacomo. Just wanting to see proper accreditation. (Is that a word?) ((Must be---I just typed it.))

A rhetorical question list and almost everybody responds with a detailed list of answers. Sheesh.

It's not like he asked for your Top 10 list of Kevin Smith comics.

cyrus

06-14-2003, 06:56 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.
TOTALLY AGREE

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.
He is a great cover artist, that's true. But it takes a LOT more to be considered a great comic artist in general let alone _THE_ greatest.

3) Maggot sucks.
AGREED. This was the dumbest character ever to be an X-Man, right alongside Marrow and Joseph. And Marrow and Maggot were basically the same. 'Young' big-mouthed posers (Mtv, anyone?) who liked to play the tough guys, and then turned into complete whiners (Oh! My angst-ridden mutant childhood was sooo bad!!!)
I never understood why they were introduced in the first place. What's the point in 'heroes' who are totally unlikable to the readers? Why read a book about guys you don't like?!?
Maggot is dead. Fine. We won't miss him. He never looked the same for more than two issues anyway.
I hope Marrow 'leaves' soon also.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.
Or Moore. (Who is called Jones btw?) Or first names like Joe. Or any starting with J. Not much left then, tough.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.
AGREED

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.
I may agree that the hype around it is amazing. Even if it turns out to BE amazing, will it ever live up to it?

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,
AGREED

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.
AGREED

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.
AGREED. But as you can see, the whiners still whine about it and the bitchers still bitch about it, sadly.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.
AGREED. But _THIS_ is definitly last century's news!

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
AGREED. Kevin Smith is fun. Anybody disagreeing deserves a beating by Jay and Silent Bob!

14) Rob Liefeld is last century?s news.
Well, by bringing this up, you turned him into current news once again, didn't you?

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.
NOPE. It's just hype (or anti-hype). Or marketing for the fanboys. Or whatever.

Rob Jensen

06-14-2003, 07:48 PM

So here are a few suggestions, tell me if you disagree and/or suggest your own.

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics. -- Agree
2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above. -- Agree
3) Maggot sucks. -- Disagree. I kinda liked how the sheer bizarreness of his power alienated him from even fellow mutants.
4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four. -- Mixed. Creative team, yes. Creator, no. Byrne's run (#232-295) was better.
5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones. -- Disagree. For one, I'd like to see Spike Lee remake "The Truth" into something readable.
6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing. -- Agree, but I feel guilty admitting this because, with the exception of Barry Windsor-Smith, he never failed to pull the most mediocre work out of his artists.
7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when. -- Agree. And they were better than Lee/Kirby on *anything.*
8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing. -- Abstain. I think speculating on the relative quality of any unpublished work is idiotic.
9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades, -- Disagree. It's better than practically anything published ten years ago or even in the pre-G.S.X-Men #1 '70's, but better than they've been in decades? Hyperbole of Stan Lee-at-his-most-fatuous proportions.
10) That last Batman movie really sucked. -- Disagree. The first twenty minutes, including the para-surfing on Gotham's rooftops, sucked. But after that, I liked Clooney's Batman, Uma's Ivy, and Silverstone's Batgirl. Schwarzeneggar blew chunks, however. Mediocre movie, but not the disaster the fanboys feel it is.
11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie. -- Disagree. I think they were about equal in quality, with X-Men 2 suffering slightly from excessive editing of subplots from the last third of the movie.
12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor. -- Mixed -- I agree that the third and fourth movies were vastly inferior to the first two, but S4 was *awful* whereas S3 was merely mediocre. And I liked Pryor in 3.
13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late. -- Agree. And he *still* doesn't know how to use a movie camera.
14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news. -- Disagree. He's *no* century's news. (OK. Chalk that up as a snarky "Agree.")
15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy. -- Agree. But I think that's because most of the fanboys have no sense of humor and therefore can't tell that he's playing a role in the press that only vaguely resembles who he is in real life.

New suggested question:

16) The Pamphlet format comic book (32-pages, saddle-stitched, obscenely over-frigging-priced) is dead. -- Agree.

-- Rob Jensen

hork

06-14-2003, 07:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rich Johnston:
1) 7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

DISAGREE. There's a lot of nostalgia there. A good job, ahead of its time, and way ahead of other work at the time, but not a patch on current Morrison, who's work is what you remember Byrne and Claremont's being like, until you revisit it.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe it's what YOU remember Byrne and Claremont's being like. I see no similarity. Morrison's work is more like what I remember Marville being like.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

AGREE. But the beginning of 1 way was better than 2. And Patrick Stewart still can't act.<hr /></blockquote>I don't get it. You think little Magneto being taken away from his parents is better than Nightcrawler storming the White House (which I think is the best scene in either of the two movies)? And since when can't Patrick Stewart act? He's a great Shakespearean actor who pretty much single-handedly brought dignity and real acting talent to Star Trek.

William Coate

06-14-2003, 07:50 PM

Alan Moore the greatest? Perhaps the most infamous. He writes some interesting stuff but not all of it is the greatest.

Jim Shooters's Valiant was some of the best books of the 90's and developed one of the best crossovers of ALL TIME! Unity is a great story and I thank Shooter for bringing me into comics with his books.

In the 90's we had Valiant (first two years), Sandman, Starman, Hitman, Peter David still writing the Hulk, Kingdom Come, Marvels, Bone from Jeff Smith which is about to end! etc...
I think the 90's were just a little better than right now. Sure there is more experimentation but I was reading a lot more back then.

That's what I think!
WC

aphterburn

06-14-2003, 08:20 PM

Ok, let me get some things off my chest:

Screw this "Maggot Sucks" bullshit. Maggot does not "suck". I'm not his biggest fan, but he had depth and brought a tragic and very unique dimension to the X-Men. Just cuz he doesn't shout out cool catchphrases, say words like "bub", and have a neat-o superpower or "kewl" claws does not make him suck. Morrison is constantly creating intersting characters like this today, and Maggot was no different.

Second of all, to the guy that said Patrick Stewart can't act: put down the crackpipe. To the guy that said Stewart finally brought dignity and real acting ability to Star Trek: I understand the sentiment, but you need to put down your crackpipe as well. MANY great actors have come from Star Trek before and since Stewart. And since when does Trek not have dignity? It's been the pinacle of science fiction, being the true thought-provoking alternative to that bang bang whiz Star Wars crap.

Rant over.

bujin

06-14-2003, 08:21 PM

I actually thought Maggott was a pretty original character.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Maybe it's what YOU remember Byrne and Claremont's being like. I see no similarity. Morrison's work is more like what I remember Marville being like.<hr /></blockquote>LOL! :)

Agreed! Claremont/Byrne should never be compared to Morrison's work - I cannot deal with the current New X-Men.

aphterburn

06-14-2003, 08:49 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by bujin:
Claremont/Byrne should never be compared to Morrison's work - I cannot deal with the current New X-Men.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Um..why? Is it the lack of superheroic antics or bright shiny skin tight leotards? No villains of the month? No dark sagas? The thought provoking stories? Please explain the appeal of Claremont/Bryne's entertaining, yet by-the-book stories.

Kabukiman

06-14-2003, 09:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.<hr /></blockquote>Amazing. Just amazing. One of the best.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.<hr /></blockquote>I dunno. I've never really understood his popularity. To be sure, he is a technically proficient painter, but I was a LOT more impressed before I read a Basic Training in Wizard that revealed that not only does he use photos (And don't jump down my throat, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that) but he goes so far as to sew costumes for his models to wear. Anyway, I think David Mack is a much more interesting and creative painter than Ross. And for that matter, I like Greg Land's photoreference work more han Ross's.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />3) Maggot sucks.<hr /></blockquote>From what I know about him, yeah.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.<hr /></blockquote>Never been much of a FF reader, so I don't have a frame of reference.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah............

<blockquote>quote:<hr />6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.<hr /></blockquote>Never read a Valiant book in my life.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.<hr /></blockquote>Yuh-huh

<blockquote>quote:<hr />8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.<hr /></blockquote>The art will be amazing. The story, I dunno. Don't really care about it either way though.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.<hr /></blockquote>For me, yeah. I'm loving a whole LOT of stuff now. But I don't have "decades" of experience to compare it to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />10) That last Batman movie really sucked.<hr /></blockquote>Bat-nipples are SO cool...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.<hr /></blockquote>Very much so.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.<hr /></blockquote>I believe I have blocked them out of my memory banks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.<hr /></blockquote>Who? Oh yeah, him. So, was Youngblood: Bloodstort any good? :p

<blockquote>quote:<hr />15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.<hr /></blockquote>But he's such a quiet fellow.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 09:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Alan Coil:
Just wanting to see proper accreditation. (Is that a word?) ((Must be---I just typed it.))<hr /></blockquote>It is a word, but it's not the one you were looking for. :) "Attribution", perhaps?

("Accreditation" is official recognition from an independent authority, indicating that certain standards of quality have been met. A comics example might be the Comics Code Authority putting their seal on books.)

mc (_(\/)_)achete

06-14-2003, 09:10 PM

Hellboy15

06-14-2003, 09:31 PM

Its funny, Ive seen nothing but jokes about Maggot for years, whether in wizard or in Mikes column last week. This strong belief that EVERYONE thinks he sucks, this assumptiion that because a few writers at wizard didn't like him, and because he was featured in what could at best be called an awkward time in X-men, that no one in the world could possibly like this lame ass character.

WELL HA HA F'N HA, BECAUSE HALF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD SEEM TO LIKE HIM! So all the critics, wizard writers, and people who have never read an issue with him but don't like him because someone told you he suks can shove it.

However those who read his appearances and genuinely did not like the character are entitled to thier opinion.

As someone here stated, in an era where those that are hated and feared are more attractive than any popstar or model, a couple of freaks come along and people don't want it. Maggot was a great character to me, and obviously many others on this board, and yes, he was killed needlessly, in a third rate book at that.

swampy

06-14-2003, 09:37 PM

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

His covers and commercial work are good, and you can't deny his craft. Only his Bruce Timm like work and the pages in the Sandman Mystery Theater Annual have done anything for me though. I can think of at least a dozen painters (mostly pupils of Barron Storey) that are miles ahead of him.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Must resist trolling! Cannot, the X-Men has always been awful.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

Have no inclination one way or the other. The promo art looks terrible though, due to the coloring. It robs the art of all depth. If the actual books look like this, it will be very ugly IMO.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

In theory, not practice.

palefire

06-14-2003, 09:58 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Great, but not the greatest.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Sure is.

3) Maggot sucks.

Maggot was odd, that much I'm sure of. I don't know about the suck part.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Stan and Jack were the most creative team ever on FF. I actually enjoyed the Byrne run more, but John has to give allot of the credit for his run to Stan and Jack. So I guess I don't disagree.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Jim's the man!

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

One of the best runs ever.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

This should be changed to "we all hope it will be amazing."

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

1984 to 2004, yep - that would be decades.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

sure did in a large way.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

I agree, but I didn't dislike the first one.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

:D

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

One can always hope Kevin will learn to write 10 or so issues before a series starts to advertise.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

1904 to 2004, hmmmmmmmmm. Don't think Rob was making much news last century.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Yep, and he's doing a good job of it.

Johnny Triangles

06-14-2003, 10:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles:
Well, since the 80s were DECADES ago, I'm guessing you DO agree.<hr /></blockquote>Um, no. The 1980's ended in December 1989, which was only about 13.5 years ago. You need at least two (2) to have "decades". If you're going to attempt literalist reinterpretation, kindly get it right. :) <hr /></blockquote>Actually, I wasn't doing literalist reinterpretation. You're actually the one being literal. What I was talking about is popular usage. If you're going to attempt to analyze my post, kindly get it right. :)

We are currently in the 2000s. The last decade was the 90s. The decade before that was the 1980s. It's not two decades in a literal sense, but it is by popular usage. No one out there refers to the current decade as 1993 to 2003, they usually start counting the current decade from 2000. All the 90s, from 1990-1999, is usually lumped together as one decade. Every year in the 80s from 80-89 is often lumped together as "two decades ago" by the average person.

To-may-to, to-mah-to, I suppose both interpretations have merit.

Todd VerBeek

06-14-2003, 10:33 PM

Julio Diaz

06-15-2003, 12:53 AM

I'll bite...

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Agree -- and if he's not the greatest, he's definitely in the top three.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Also agree, but I wish he was doing more sequential storytelling and less pin-up work.

3) Maggot sucks.

I received only limited exposure to the character, and wasn't impressed. However, I'm from the school that believes there are no bad characters, only bad writing. Someone -- maybe Alan Moore? -- could probably do something bang-up with him. But if the only things ever written about him are what we've already seen, then yeah, I'd agree that he was a poorly-written character.

$10 says he's somebody's Epic proposal, though...

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Depends on your perspective. They certainly created the most enduring concepts to come out of the series. But Stan's dialogue seems dated to modern readers. I'm still inclined to say yes, but Byrne did a pretty damn fine job in his day, and I'm certainly digging the current Waid/Wieringo stuff.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Bah! As long as they do good work, I don't care what their names are.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Don't know the man personally, but know he has wronged at least one friend of mine in the past. Will compeltely agree about Valiant, though.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Yes.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

Darn sure hope so, but it has a LOT to live up to, and I'm sure that a certain segment of the readership will be disappointed that it doesn't live up to their imagination or they're overhyped, sky-high expectations, much like many felt about the STAR WARS prequels, THE MATRIX RELOADED, or (in comics terms) DARK KNIGHT 2 (all of which I personally liked, by the way...).

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

There's great stuff from every era, but I'm buying more new stuff now than I've bought since the late '80s/very early '90s. Certiainly there's a ton of varietly out there if you're willing to look for it.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Can't say, haven't seen it. Have no real plans to, either.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

I'll agree with this, though I really liked the first one, too.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

It's been at least a decade since I saw SUPERMAN III, and I'm not sure I ever saw IV. Neither strike any chords with me.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Agree on the first point. On the latter, eventually, someone's going to get smart and not schedule his stuff until a significant portion is done (or in the case of a mini, until it's completely done), much like DC has done with the Loeb/Lee BATMAN. DC almost got it right with his GREEN ARROW, and I'm betting when he works for them again, it'll be under those circumstances.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

I don't think he'll ever completely go away, but I don't think he'll ever be as hot as he once inexplicably was. That is, unless he and Spike Lee revive The Spikeman from their 501 Jeans commercial.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Bill Jemas: Threat or Menace?

He's only controversial to those of us that obsessively follow comics. The average guy on the street has never even heard of him.

Julio Diaz

06-15-2003, 12:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />But did people really surf in the 1920s?<hr /></blockquote>Surfing dates back to prehistoric times in the Hawai'ian islands, and was observed by the first Europeans/Americans to visit. Christian missionaries did their best to kill the tradition (on the grounds that it was hedonistic), but it re-emerged as a recreational activity in Hawai'i around the turn of the century (20th), and was picked up in California in the 20's and 30's. It didn't catch on as a popular activity until after WWII.<hr /></blockquote>This was something I'd wondered about when reading NAMOR. It's great to see the clarification!

06-15-2003, 03:13 AM

...Two Points:

1) The problem with Maggot was that his dialog was damn near unintelligble. IIRC, he was supposed to be speaking some Brazillian version of Ebonics. I knew someone from Brazil, and asked if he'd ever heard any of that type of slang. He made it very clear that it was from nowhere in South America, and that the writer probably made it up just to sell comics. Had Maggot been from a recognizable part of the world, with an understandable accent, then he'd have been better accepted.

Bottom Line: As with Vibe, it wasn't the powers, it was the stereotyping and overethnicizing that killed him.

2) Screw all of you, because I have no qualms about admitting I loved Richard Pryor in Superman III. The problem with that film wasn't Pryor, but that they abandoned the original idea of Braniac being the villain, and changed it to a HAL knockoff funded by Robert Vaughn. Then they changed red kryptonite into the "tobacco green" version, which would have been a nice tip of the continuity hat that the fans would have eaten up whole. That was what killed the film.

Dan20

06-15-2003, 03:15 AM

I can already tell that through no fault of Busiek and Perez, the JLA/Avengers mini is going to catch a lot of criticism. Since everyone's already telling themselves it can't live up to the hype, you'll all find something about it to bash.
And for those who think the art'll be great but the writing will be weak...it depends what you're expecting. If you're looking for Maus, you're looking in the wrong place, I'm assuming. If you're looking for a damn good superhero story with a lot of cool moments, then I think Busiek will deliver.

Absalom

06-15-2003, 06:09 AM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.
not for me, he's a good writer, but sure not hte best.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.
not for me again, his style hasn't evolved, it has devolved... too static, no expressions. surely not the best artist. or in your dreams only.

3) Maggot sucks.
the character was one of the most original mutant created, but the stories weren't at his best. His powers were original and never before seen, he was a real freak, and not the usual beautiful and so cool x-men we know.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.
it's your opinion. I liked their run but I don't see them as the best team...

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.
pffff

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.
nearly agree.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.
sure. just like morrison/quitely did on their 1st saga. it was amazing.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.
maybe, maybe not. I don't see the interest of this cross-over, so... and seeing the pages/pencils perez did for it I'm not a fan of perez anymore....

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,
maybe again, maybe not. it's only a point of view, your point of view.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.
that's sure ! shumacher means crap on the batman movies !

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.
yes, but the 1st movie was necessary and well-done too.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.
sure.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
and you were fed up when fans bash creators..... ? and at least he's good, him, so he may be late, I don't care.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.
and you were fed up when fans bash creators..... ? and this is wrong by the way. dead wrong.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.
then what.... ?

this article wasn't really necessary. :o

Wolverine

06-15-2003, 07:56 AM

Liefeld does NOT suck

Nobody

06-15-2003, 09:22 AM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

He's a great writer, yes. Greatest? I dunno.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

I hate him. I hate his art. He has only skill, no talent, no style, no flair. I tend to like my painters with a bit of abstractness to their art. I also like my artists to not overpower their own work with their massive egos. And I'm sick and tired of seeing Ross' fat middle aged friends dressed up in spandex.

3) Maggot sucks.

I had no idea who Maggot was until I read this article.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

I've never read their Fantastic Four, and I really have never read anyone else's FF.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

You're wacky.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

I never read any Valiant comics.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

They were both at their prime, and their run still holds water today. Their current work, however...

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

Probably not. It'll sell amazingly, but I don't think it'll live up to the hype.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.

Agreed.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Saw it on hotel HBO about four years ago. Agreed.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Yes, but it shouldn't take away that the first one was also great.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

Agreed.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Yeah, he's ok. I don't read his comics though.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Then why are we still talking about him?

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

I generally just ignore what he says and laugh at the way people overreact.

dr.no

06-15-2003, 10:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Posted by OM
) The problem with Maggot was that his dialog was damn near unintelligble. IIRC, he was supposed to be speaking some Brazillian version of Ebonics. <hr /></blockquote>I thought that Maggot was from South Africa?

amorphis

06-15-2003, 11:33 AM

I would like to know, if Alan Moore isn't the greatest writer in comics, then who is? Gaiman, Morrison, and Miller are all great, but Moore is God. I like Bendis, Millar, Ellis, and others, but none of them touch Alans work over the years. I'm willing to bet that those who disagree have never read Miracleman, probably the greatest comic in the last 20 years. And then there's Swamp Thing, Watchmen, V, Supreme, etc, all of it brilliant. So if he's not the greatest, tell me who is so I can go and find some of their work.

Todd VerBeek

06-15-2003, 11:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wolverine:
Liefeld does NOT suck<hr /></blockquote>I wouldn't know; I've never gone out with him.

But you do have to admit that he's borderline incompetent as a businessman, and clearly unqualified as an artist.

L'Zoril

06-15-2003, 12:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scorpysue:
I would like to know, if Alan Moore isn't the greatest writer in comics, then who is? Gaiman, Morrison, and Miller are all great, but Moore is God. I like Bendis, Millar, Ellis, and others, but none of them touch Alans work over the years. I'm willing to bet that those who disagree have never read Miracleman, probably the greatest comic in the last 20 years. And then there's Swamp Thing, Watchmen, V, Supreme, etc, all of it brilliant. So if he's not the greatest, tell me who is so I can go and find some of their work.<hr /></blockquote>I agree with you completely. Though the others are great, they don't compare to Moore. I'd say he's the greatest writer in English speaking comics. That is, in British and American. But everyone is overlooking the Europe comics market which is an extremely interesting and fruitful place to find new readings. Just try some of the classics: Corto Maltese by Hugo Pratt, Spiegelman's Maus is just excellent, the same with Barefoot Gen by Keiji Nakazawa, Herge's Tin Tin, The Incal by Moebius and Jodorowsky, The woman trap by Enki Bilal, An author in search for six characters by Milo Minara, Fires by Mattotti, etc, etc. That should keep you busy for osme time

mmbomber

06-15-2003, 12:02 PM

As you can see Alex Ross sucks.(see above)

playa hater

06-15-2003, 12:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wolverine:
Liefeld does NOT suck<hr /></blockquote>I wouldn't know; I've never gone out with him.

But you do have to admit that he's borderline incompetent as a businessman, and clearly unqualified as an artist.<hr /></blockquote>oh shut the fuck up.. Liefeld is good. He's done more than you ever will, made more money than you ever will, and is most likely will return. Late or not, people still buy his books...

Shakespeare

06-15-2003, 12:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scorpysue:
I would like to know, if Alan Moore isn't the greatest writer in comics, then who is? Gaiman, Morrison, and Miller are all great, but Moore is God. I like Bendis, Millar, Ellis, and others, but none of them touch Alans work over the years. So if he's not the greatest, tell me who is so I can go and find some of their work.<hr /></blockquote>Your list here has a bunch of great talents and I do agree that Alan Moore is one of the best, but how do we measure the best writer? What if we measure by awards. Who's got the most Eisner Awards? Who's got the most Harvey Awards? Who's got the Wizard Awards?
I am sure that any of these writers would really like to win the Pulitzer Prize for a comic book and there is only one writer who has done that, Art Spiegelman. I don't see his name on your list.
(Michael Chambon won the Pulitzer for a book about a couple of Comic book creators, but it wasn't A comic book.)

Julio Diaz

06-15-2003, 01:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by L'Zoril:
But everyone is overlooking the Europe comics market which is an extremely interesting and fruitful place to find new readings. Just try some of the classics: Corto Maltese by Hugo Pratt, Spiegelman's Maus is just excellent<hr /></blockquote>Um... Spiegelman's American and has had the majority of his work published in America in English, though he was born in Stockholm to parents who were Polish Jews. I don't think of him when I think of European comics, and I'd wager most would agree with me.

That said, yes, he's brilliant, and certainly up there with Moore.

tralfaz

06-15-2003, 01:54 PM

they have comics in europe? I thought they hate all things american? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Gregg Cummings

06-15-2003, 01:54 PM

1) Agree.

2) Disagree.

3) Disagree.

4) Agree.

5) Agree.

6) Agree.

7) Agree.

8) Disagree.

9) Agree and Disagree.

10) Agree.

11) Agree.

12) Agree.

13) Agree.

14) Agree.

15) Disagree.

Todd VerBeek

06-15-2003, 02:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by playa hater:
oh shut the fuck up.. Liefeld is good. He's done more than you ever will, made more money than you ever will, and is most likely will return. Late or not, people still buy his books...<hr /></blockquote>Ever look at the way little kids draw? It's not because their fingers don't work right, but because their brains don't process visual information the way most adult brains do. So the fact that many kids (and adults whose visual perception just never developed) can't see what's wrong with Liefeld's illustration skills, and/or lack the judgment to choose something better, doesn't mean the problems aren't there.

By the way, I really don't care whether he's more popular or richer or (back in the day) more prolific than I am. I'm content to be a better illustrator, and perhaps a better person.

06-15-2003, 03:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wolverine:
Liefeld does NOT suck<hr /></blockquote>I wouldn't know; I've never gone out with him.<hr /></blockquote>...Yeah, but you don't seem like the type of guy who'd kiss and tell anyway :-P

Of course, the real issue, as we all know regardless of gender and/or preference is not whether he sucks, but whether he swallows...:-P

06-15-2003, 04:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady...no, wait! That was Mike Sangiacomo! Damn these UBB moderator accounts!:
So here are a few suggestions, tell me if you disagree and/or suggest your own.<hr /></blockquote>...Ok, I'll bite. Little late in the game, but I've been busy:

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

...Maybe not the greatest, but one of the greatest. The problem I have with him is that he's become rather pompous since Watchmen, and his continued anti-Marvel & anti-DC stances despite the honest overtures to mend the bridges have nuked quite a bit of sympathy I had for his complaints. The fact that someone who's proven he can write Superman far better than the current teams purposely removes himself from contention and writes one of the best knockoff books for the House of Stolen Ideas...er...I mean, Liefeld's piece-of-shit "company", does not win him any points in that regard, either.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

...Wrong. He's a fucking excellent artist. Get your descriptors straight, Mike! :-)

3) Maggot sucks.

...Yes, but does he...oh, wait. I've already used that joke. See my other comments about why the character was not accepted.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

...This is a given. What you needed to say was "Tom DeFalco was the worst writer to ever work on the FF". The man had a great art team, but the whole "Death of Reed & Doom" mega-arc was crap.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

...Especially if they're part of any sort of "mangatization" gimmick.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

...For the first year or so. Towards the end of his reign, tho, things began to drag a bit. Just like they did at Marvel before his ouster.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

...Had this been phrased as a question, the answer would have been "duh!"

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

...I'm going to wait and see on this one. The problem with this book is that we've essentially already seen this teamup happen. By proxy - Squadron Supreme and that JLA knockoff during the fun years of Justice League - and by circumstance - the Access crossovers. IMHO, such future crossovers were put on hiatus specifically to make the JLA/Avengers one seem far more special than it really will be in the end.

Make no mistake: it will be good regardless, thanks to the creative team. But I'm going to reserve judgement as to whether or not it's up there with Watchmen or Kingdom Come until it hits the stands.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

...Yes and no. Depends on the book. And that can spawn more threads than this site can handle.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

...Yep, and that's because Joel Shoemacher turned it into an overblown flaming camp-in-drag flick that was an insult to what Joel was trying to pay tribute to - the 60's TV series. Had he stuck with the formula that worked for the first two films - dark, gothic and somewhat serious - the damn thing might have worked.

Of course, I'm still one of those who thinks Uma Thurmann isn't hot at all, so...

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

...I have a copy of the screener, and I haven't watched it yet due to time constraints, so I can't answer this one.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

...See my previous answer with regards to Superman III. On a side note, I used to date the cousin of Mark Pillow - that solar superman clone - and she used to defend his performance with a zeal usually reserved for those needing prozac.

Sure enough, she did...

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

...I watched 10 minutes of a bootleg of Clerks. If I yawned any more my jaw hinge would have broken.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

...Rob Liefeld is a pedantic misanthrope with delusions of business acumen, further inhibited by what's reported to be severe financial limitations compounded by...well, let's just say there's been rumors for years about where his money goes.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

...He puts the "dip" in "dipshit", that's for sure.

...On a side note, Mike? You forgot one:

16) Comics are priced too fucking high these days, and it's obvious that the companies are gouging.

Michael P

06-15-2003, 05:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
...Two Points:

1) The problem with Maggot was that his dialog was damn near unintelligble. IIRC, he was supposed to be speaking some Brazillian version of Ebonics. I knew someone from Brazil, and asked if he'd ever heard any of that type of slang. He made it very clear that it was from nowhere in South America, and that the writer probably made it up just to sell comics. Had Maggot been from a recognizable part of the world, with an understandable accent, then he'd have been better accepted.

Bottom Line: As with Vibe, it wasn't the powers, it was the stereotyping and overethnicizing that killed him.

<hr /></blockquote>Actually, it was South African.

playa hater

06-15-2003, 05:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by playa hater:
oh shut the fuck up.. Liefeld is good. He's done more than you ever will, made more money than you ever will, and is most likely will return. Late or not, people still buy his books...<hr /></blockquote>Ever look at the way little kids draw? It's not because their fingers don't work right, but because their brains don't process visual information the way most adult brains do. So the fact that many kids (and adults whose visual perception just never developed) can't see what's wrong with Liefeld's illustration skills, and/or lack the judgment to choose something better, doesn't mean the problems aren't there.

By the way, I really don't care whether he's more popular or richer or (back in the day) more prolific than I am. I'm content to be a better illustrator, and perhaps a better person.<hr /></blockquote>oh, so I guess Bill Sienkiewicz draws a bunch of lines... I suppose Mignola is crappy cause all he does is blocky and black...
and Picasso, he was a wack job.

you're a loser and I'll tell you why, I've been reading your posts and it seems to me you like pointing out the errors of others. Makes you feel good dont it? Using your high intellect and vast vocabulary to put down my fellow posters.

by the way, being content is another way of accepting the fact that you'll never break into comics and all you'll ever be is a out of work web designer.

and I hate reregistering

Zitoman

06-15-2003, 05:25 PM

Joe Kelly didnt come up with Maggot. Maggot was around from Lobdell's last few issues.

And he was lame.

Alan Coil

06-15-2003, 05:58 PM

Attribution it is. Thanks, Todd.

Alan Coil

06-15-2003, 06:05 PM

Lotsa new posters because of Sangiacomo's list.

Maybe he should have a new list once a month or so.

L'Zoril

06-15-2003, 06:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Julio Diaz:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by L'Zoril:
But everyone is overlooking the Europe comics market which is an extremely interesting and fruitful place to find new readings. Just try some of the classics: Corto Maltese by Hugo Pratt, Spiegelman's Maus is just excellent<hr /></blockquote>Um... Spiegelman's American and has had the majority of his work published in America in English, though he was born in Stockholm to parents who were Polish Jews. I don't think of him when I think of European comics, and I'd wager most would agree with me.

That said, yes, he's brilliant, and certainly up there with Moore.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah yeah I know. I wrote it in a hurry. Also, Keiji Nakazawa is obviously not from Europe. He's Japanese. An indeed he's brilliant.

And by the by, no one seems to mention Will Eisner. The Spirit is excellent and his graphic novels are amongst the best books I've ever read.

L'Zoril

06-15-2003, 06:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shakespeare:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scorpysue:
I would like to know, if Alan Moore isn't the greatest writer in comics, then who is? Gaiman, Morrison, and Miller are all great, but Moore is God. I like Bendis, Millar, Ellis, and others, but none of them touch Alans work over the years. So if he's not the greatest, tell me who is so I can go and find some of their work.<hr /></blockquote>Your list here has a bunch of great talents and I do agree that Alan Moore is one of the best, but how do we measure the best writer? What if we measure by awards. Who's got the most Eisner Awards? Who's got the most Harvey Awards? Who's got the Wizard Awards?
I am sure that any of these writers would really like to win the Pulitzer Prize for a comic book and there is only one writer who has done that, Art Spiegelman. I don't see his name on your list.
(Michael Chambon won the Pulitzer for a book about a couple of Comic book creators, but it wasn't A comic book.)<hr /></blockquote>I must say that we musn't measure creators by awards. Harvey's and Esiners are ok but the Wizard awards seem very dull to me. They're very pompous, kinda like the MTV movie awards. They don't examine quality, just poupularity. Also, those 3 awards you just mentioned are given mainly to American creators.

And if we were to measure the creators by awards, the man who has won the most if I remember correct is Alan Moore. He won Eisners year after year through the 80's. The same trend was then followed by Gaiman and then Busiek. And the with ABC he came back again. I don't know exactly how much Eisners he has won but I'm pretty sure he's the man with most Eisners.

The_Tiger_In_The_Teapot

06-15-2003, 06:39 PM

This will probably mean social suicide here, but anyways:

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

This is a bit like sayin Michelangelo was a hack, but Watchmen bored me... (let the batings begin)

3) Maggot sucks.

Maggot bloody rules! Marrow too!!! I really can't see why som many people hate them. I think they were relly interesting an intriguing characters killed (at least as characters) by bastard editors.

Todd VerBeek

06-15-2003, 07:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by playa hater:
oh, so I guess Bill Sienkiewicz draws a bunch of lines... I suppose Mignola is crappy cause all he does is blocky and black...
and Picasso, he was a wack job.<hr /></blockquote>Are you referring to his Blue period, Rose period, Analytic Cubism, Synthetic Cubism, or his later work? :) His early stuff was quite realistic, you know. A lot of people think that semi-abstract art is just a bunch of people who can't draw. But all of the important semi-abstract painters (impressionists, cubists, expressionists, etc.) were artists who knew how to paint a realistic portrait or landscape; they just chose not to. Likewise, I've seen Sienkiewicz and Mignola do straight realism (or pretty close to it). I've never seen Liefeld pull it off, even (especially) when it looks like he's trying to (his infamous Captain-America-bust-in-profile pin-up, for example). And that missing foundation shows in every figure he draws.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you're a loser and I'll tell you why, I've been reading your posts and it seems to me you like pointing out the errors of others. Makes you feel good dont it? Using your high intellect and vast vocabulary to put down my fellow posters.<hr /></blockquote>More to the point, I enjoy correcting their errors. It has nothing to do with putting people down, but encouraging them not make the same mistake again. Granted, I'm not always good at it: I do it rudely and piss them off instead. And yeah, I'm showing off, as well. But my motive is to help, not to just insult or ridicule people.

Speaking of which...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />by the way, being content is another way of accepting the fact that you'll never break into comics and all you'll ever be is a out of work web designer.<hr /></blockquote>So you did a little research and dug up some info to make fun of... maybe jab at a sore spot and rub some salt in the wound? And this makes you better than the "loser" you just described? {shaking head} I'm unemployed for the same reason 10 million other Americans are: the economy sucks (and swallows). It's certainly no reflection on me. In any case, I'm not just my job, or even my job skills. I'm someone trying to do all the different things I enjoy, and do them as well as I can. (Comics are on that list. So is web design. And system administration. And essay writing. See <a href="http://toddverbeek.com/ToddVerBeek-resume.pdf" target="_blank">resume</a>. :) ) That's why I'm content with not being rich or popular; those things just don't matter to me. Good luck with your own journey.

playa hater

06-15-2003, 07:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And yeah, I'm showing off, as well. But my motive is to help, not to just insult or ridicule people <hr /></blockquote>then i take everything back and i apologize...
youre still a show off
you should get a job you damn hippie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

and yes, I am a loser, but at least I know I am.

Todd VerBeek

06-15-2003, 07:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by playa hater:
you should get a job you damn hippie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I don't have nearly enough hair to be hippie. "Punk" would be more appropriate. :)

NicholasWyche

06-15-2003, 07:32 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

Moore is definitely in the top ten. I would, personally, rank Gilbert Hernandez as the best writer in comics these days. (But that ranking does shift around at any given moment.)

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Think Ross is a talented painter, but completely uninspired and I find his work to be a little creepy.

3) Maggot sucks.

No argument.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Again, no argument.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Agree on Lee, like Bruce Jones and would love to see Gerard Jones return to comics.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Eeeewwww! So, totally, have to disagree.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

Loved it as a kid, it still tweaks that adolescent spark in me. If I never read it again, I wouldn't miss it.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

Eh, George Perez has been leaving me cold for years. Busiek is a talented mainstream writer, but not even him could get me interested in this.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

Halleluah, brother!!!

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Oh dear god, you are so right!

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

Oh yeah... kick-ass, fun, little, flick.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

True dat.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Yep, but I'll buy 'em 'cause Smith's humor really works for me.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Do we even need to waste bandwidth on this twerp anymore?

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

I was one of Jemas' biggest boosters in the beginning of his tenure, and I think he has done wonders for Marvel and gotten the ball rolling wonderfully. Now, it's time to either take it down a notch or two or hand the reins over to someone who could carry to ball the rest of the way to touchdown. Someone like, Stuart Moore?

pickard

06-15-2003, 07:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by L'Zoril:
I must say that we musn't measure creators by awards. Harvey's and Esiners are ok but the Wizard awards seem very dull to me. They're very pompous, kinda like the MTV movie awards. They don't examine quality, just poupularity. Also, those 3 awards you just mentioned are given mainly to American creators.
<hr /></blockquote>Since the point of comics, in my opinion, is to entertain people, and popularity awards are usually an indication of how many people the work entertained, I think they're very valid.

It's the other awards that are the pompous ones, the ones which are predisposed to excluding works enjoyed by the masses.

BTW, the MTV awards have been called many things, but I'd bet that you're the first person to characterize them as pompous.

Unless you were kidding.

Todd VerBeek

06-15-2003, 07:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pickard:
Since the point of comics, in my opinion, is to entertain people, and popularity awards are usually an indication of how many people the work entertained, I think they're very valid.<hr /></blockquote>So if we disagree about the point of comics, and think they're supposed to be about the creative expression of ideas, it's OK to prefer the snooty awards or critical acclaim over the popularity contests? :p

comicfoil

06-15-2003, 08:01 PM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

You bet.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

Undoubtedly.

3) Maggot sucks.

No, he was okay. Great visual and an interesting background. Not really X-Man material though.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

That should have been #1.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

Not a bad idea.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Not to mention his awesome run as writer on the LSH and an industry-changing decade as EIC of Marvel Comics before all that.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

As defining for the new X-Men as Lee and Kirby were for the FF.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

God I hope so.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

There's always room for improvement. There does seem to be a wider berth of talent allowing for a greater number of outstanding books.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

Yeah but Clooney was still better than Kilmer.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

True.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

No no no, that one was damn funny. But yeah 4 sucked.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Snootchie Bootchies!

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Rob Liefeld was barely even news then. He's a footnote.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Sure but please take te credit away from him for Ultimate Spider-Man. I'm sick of seeing it wheneevr I open the comic. It's a joke. Lee and Ditko are the inspiration for any Spider-Man incarnation; Ultimate, 2099, even Spider-Girl. It's insulting.

My first post. I'm so proud.

-Chad
comicfoil

L'Zoril

06-15-2003, 08:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pickard:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by L'Zoril:
I must say that we musn't measure creators by awards. Harvey's and Esiners are ok but the Wizard awards seem very dull to me. They're very pompous, kinda like the MTV movie awards. They don't examine quality, just poupularity. Also, those 3 awards you just mentioned are given mainly to American creators.
<hr /></blockquote>Since the point of comics, in my opinion, is to entertain people, and popularity awards are usually an indication of how many people the work entertained, I think they're very valid.

It's the other awards that are the pompous ones, the ones which are predisposed to excluding works enjoyed by the masses.

BTW, the MTV awards have been called many things, but I'd bet that you're the first person to characterize them as pompous.

Unless you were kidding.<hr /></blockquote>Mmm... I wasn't kidding really. But now that you mention it there's no reason for calling them pompous... The word kinda came out by itself... weird. Yet somehow I feel oddly proud for being the first in calling them pompous... Again weird.

But I still don't agree that we should use awards as a measure of quality. As you said, comics are a way of entertainment. I agree with that. But I also see them as a cultural way to reach people. To me, it's sad that many see comics only as a summer blockbuster movie that only has ninjas, girls and bombs. Many are unaware of in depth and profound comics that could stand up to many great books.

So, what I'm saying is that awards should try to verify the quality of the work and not the popularity of it. Many award the most popular creator and most of the times it doesn't mean it is the best there is.

jawaplumber

06-15-2003, 08:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by comicfoil:


15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Sure but please take te credit away from him for Ultimate Spider-Man. I'm sick of seeing it wheneevr I open the comic. It's a joke. Lee and Ditko are the inspiration for any Spider-Man incarnation; Ultimate, 2099, even Spider-Girl. It's insulting.

My first post. I'm so proud.

-Chad
comicfoil<hr /></blockquote>I think you're reading a bit too much into the "inspiration" credit for Bill Jemas. I don't think anyone is trying to say that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko AREN'T an inspiration. If this were the case, Marvel wouldn't have included Amazing Fantasy no. 15 in the first hardcover volume of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN. I mean, they didn't have to include it, since it has no relation to the continuity of the Ultimate books. Yet, they included it because of it was a major (get this) inspiration on the Ultimate Spider-Man concept from it's inception.

However, I will agree that it does come across a bit self-gratifying on Jemas' part, if he's the one giving himself that credit. Then again, maybe Bendis and Bagley or whomever wanted Jemas to always get a credit even after he stepped down from co-plotting, who knows?

Charlie Hustle

06-15-2003, 08:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I dunno. I've never really understood his popularity. To be sure, he is a technically proficient painter, but I was a LOT more impressed before I read a Basic Training in Wizard that revealed that not only does he use photos (And don't jump down my throat, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that) but he goes so far as to sew costumes for his models to wear. Anyway, I think David Mack is a much more interesting and creative painter than Ross. And for that matter, I like Greg Land's photoreference work more han Ross's.

<hr /></blockquote>I agree that he overuses photos and models, in fact i said it in my post as to why I think he's overrated. But David Mack does the exact same thing. In fact if you've collected his work since the black and white days it's even more disappointing to see mack resort to some of his current/recent work where he just plain paints over the tops of photos. They have the same faults. Gimme Phil Hale over either one of them.

mike sangiacomo

06-15-2003, 09:41 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charlie Hustle:
[QB][QUOTE]I dunno. I've never really understood his popularity."

MIKE SAN GIACOMO HERE:
Hi, and thus I think I've proven my point,
I don't think a single statement survived. I'm amazed at the number of people who did like Maggot and didn't like Alan Moore.

It would be interesting if someone were to go through the responses and tally up the results and see which came closest to being an ultimate truth.

Don't look at me.

Thanks to all who responded.
N

J -

06-15-2003, 09:42 PM

pickard

06-15-2003, 10:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pickard:
Since the point of comics, in my opinion, is to entertain people, and popularity awards are usually an indication of how many people the work entertained, I think they're very valid.<hr /></blockquote>So if we disagree about the point of comics, and think they're supposed to be about the creative expression of ideas, it's OK to prefer the snooty awards or critical acclaim over the popularity contests? :p <hr /></blockquote>Yes, Todd. That's what I was saying. It makes sense to me that each of us would prefer the type of awards that focus more on the aspects of the industry we prefer.

It's okay to prefer whatever awards you like for whatever reason. If you prefer the Golden Globes over the Oscars because they have a cooler-looking statue, that's fine. It's your preference.

I watch entertainment to be entertained. I'm not necessarily looking for "creative expression of ideas". I'm sure you'll look down your nose at that. I don't really care.

Kabukiman

06-15-2003, 10:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Charlie Hustle:
<hr /></blockquote>I agree that he overuses photos and models, in fact i said it in my post as to why I think he's overrated. But David Mack does the exact same thing. In fact if you've collected his work since the black and white days it's even more disappointing to see mack resort to some of his current/recent work where he just plain paints over the tops of photos. They have the same faults. Gimme Phil Hale over either one of them.[/QUOTE]

I'll agree with you on that. Mack does overuse photoreferences too (and sometimes it is glaring, like when Elektra or Black Widow look like Kabuki, who I understand is based on Mack's girlfriend), but I also think his work is much more creative, the way he uses other media and more abstract art as well.

I'm not all that familiar with Hale's art, but what I have seen is phenomenal. Damn, I loved the cover for the first issue of Vertigo's Flinch series. Beautiful.

Alan Coil

06-15-2003, 11:37 PM

Todd wrote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> More to the point, I enjoy correcting their errors. It has nothing to do with putting people down, but encouraging them not make the same mistake again. Granted, I'm not always good at it: I do it rudely and piss them off instead. <hr /></blockquote>Didn't piss me off. Helping others to improve themselves is cool with me.

Charlie Hustle

06-15-2003, 11:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kabukiman:

I'll agree with you on that. Mack does overuse photoreferences too (and sometimes it is glaring, like when Elektra or Black Widow look like Kabuki, who I understand is based on Mack's girlfriend), but I also think his work is much more creative, the way he uses other media and more abstract art as well.

I'm not all that familiar with Hale's art, but what I have seen is phenomenal. Damn, I loved the cover for the first issue of Vertigo's Flinch series. Beautiful.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>That's a good point, by comparison he does some really cool stuff with layout and storytelling, the origami and other elements he uses to help the story. There was just an issue of Kabuki a couple of years ago where he drew the whole issue and it was obvious no single panel was without photoreferencing and he kinda lost me.

as for Hale, check out Double Memory (combined work with Berry) and GOAD; the many moods of Phil HAle. Highly recommend both.

Avengers_Unlimited

06-16-2003, 12:52 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[1] Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.<hr /></blockquote>I agree. He's a great writer, "greatest"? No.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.<hr /></blockquote>I disagree. He can paint very well, but there's more to being an artist than that, and he falls short on several things.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />3) Maggot sucks.<hr /></blockquote>:rolleyes: I didn't like the character. I don't know if that equates to "sucks" or not.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.<hr /></blockquote>I agree.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.<hr /></blockquote>I disagree. I think, though, that there should be one on idiotic statements.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.<hr /></blockquote>I don't know.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.<hr /></blockquote>I agree.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.<hr /></blockquote>How would I know?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,<hr /></blockquote>If you mean 12-15 years ago, I agree. If you mean 20+, then I disagree.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />10) That last Batman movie really sucked.<hr /></blockquote>. . . :rolleyes: I agree.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.<hr /></blockquote>I agree.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.<hr /></blockquote>I agree.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.<hr /></blockquote>I disagree on the first part. He's a good writer, but funny he isn't. I have no idea about the second part.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.<hr /></blockquote>I agree.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.<hr /></blockquote>I agree.

Dr Manolis Dooplove

06-16-2003, 03:22 AM

i agree with the whole list... except one point:

Maggott is my favourite X-man!! yeah, i LOVE the character!! He had a distinctive appearance, a funky speach pattern, an actually original power and funny demeanor... What's not to like??

Jason Alan

06-16-2003, 05:31 AM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

I disagree.

I am not a very big fan of his work, mostly because I'm not into books that tend to be a little on the dark side. That's not to say that I like shiny, happy titles either... I only get into stories that are somewhere in between.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

I agree.

I won't deny that. The guy is indeed what you said he is, no doubt about it. He makes characters look so real, so life-like. Simply put, Alex Ross' art is amazing and nobody can tell me any different.

3) Maggot sucks.

I disagree.

Maggot does not suck, and to be honest with you I'm getting tired of this. It's such a hypocritical thing to say about a newer character. Whenever a character is introduced for the first time, there is bound to be people that say he/she/it sucks. After a while though, the character(s) start to grow on you whether you are willing to admit it or not. Maggot was like that for a lot of people, including myself.

Personally, I didn't know what to think of him at first. Initially he was weird and I remember thinking "No way is this guy going to officially become an X-Man. He is so lame!" But you know what? I eventually changed my mind.

My views on Maggot's character changed, but gradually as time progressed. Before long I didn't think he was weird, but rather cool. I didn't think he was lame, but instead unique. Does that fact make him the worst creation ever? No.

Does it mean that Maggot sucks? No. All it means is that a character needs a shakedown period following the trditional introduction... that's it. Also, there is a fine line between voicing your opinions and flat out bashing someone/something. You can voice your disapproval, and then wait for someone to counter with their approval.

You can reply to their post, and they will probably return the favor. But if you continue to force the issue, relentlessly putting down a certain character or creator, that (to me at least) is uncalled for. So, for those of you who think Maggott sucks, say that and whatever else you want. Just don't try to shove your opinions down my throat, because I'll only be spitting them right back in your face.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

I neither agree nor do I disagree.

The views on who is the best creative team to ever work on the Fantastic Four varies, due to the various generations still around today that have been paying attention to the book from the beginning. The original readers of Fantastic Four will be the ones to say that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were and always will be the best, while newer readers at this very moment are saying that Mark Waid and Mike Wieringo are the best. It can go either way. If you ask me, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best for creating the Fantastic Four & Mark Waid and Mike Wieringo were the best for taking the Fantastic Four to the level it is at currently. Basically, both teams are just as good as one another.

'Nuff said.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

I agree.

I don't even know what that word means, but I'm guessing it has to be a dedication of some sort. Would I like to see that for people like Jim Lee, Pat Lee, or even the late Chuck Jones? Sure. I truly believe that every professional in this industry deserves the utmost respect, whether you love them or hate them. After all, these people spend hours on end pouring their hearts and souls into their work... it would be the least that we, the readers, can do.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

I neither agree nor do I disagree.

I don't think Jim Shooter is a pain at all. I really love the end of the world stories that he so often takes to writing, because that type never fails to garner my interest. However, I have never even caught a glimpse of his work at Valiant Comics so I can't say anything positive or negative about it. If I come across one of the issues that Jim Shooter has written for Valiant Comics, then I'll be able to give a better opinion. Until then, I am utterly and completely clueless.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

I agree.

Who wouldn't agree with you on this? Come on! Together these two individuals told several X-Men stories that set the standard for all of the creative teams that would later follow in their footsteps. Now that I think about it, they didn't so a great job... Chris Claremont and John Byrne did an AWESOME job.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I agree.

Judging by the numerous articles I have read and the time it took to get this project out there in the open, it has to be amazing. Something this anticipated always turns out great, no matter what.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades.

I agree.

You couldn't be more right. It seems like there are decent and worth buying titles coming out each month. I am always looking forward to ordering my titles from X-World, because I never know what else might get my attention. My pull list is currently made up of 34 different books, including...

ACTION COMICS
AQUAMAN
AVENGERS
BATMAN
DAREDEVIL
DETECTIVE COMICS
EXILES
FANTASTIC FOUR
HUMAN TORCH
INCREDIBLE HULK
INHUMANS
JLA
LOBO UNBOUND
MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE VOL. II
MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE-ICONS OF EVIL
MYSTIQUE
NEW MUTANTS
NEW X-MEN
OUTSIDERS
SENTINEL
SILVER SURFER
SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN
SPIDER-GIRL
SUPERMAN
TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES ANIMATED
TEEN TITANS
THUNDERCATS: DOGS OF WAR
TRANSFORMERS: ARMADA
UNCANNY X-MEN
VENOM
VOLTRON: DEFENDER OF THE UNIVERSE
WEAPON X
WOLVERINE
X-TREME X-MEN

... so feel free to take a look, and imagine what my list is going to look like next month. Odds are that I'll be adding on at least 2 or 3 new titles.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

I agree.

The term "really sucked" is an understatement. I can't even begin to note all of the major things wrong with the film. Off the top of my head, here are the ones I can remember...

*Mr. Freeze: I think Arnold Schwarzenegger is a tremendously talented actor and all, but he just wasn't right for the part. The "real" version of the character didn't need to rely on his size to gain the upper hand in a battle. All he had to do was use his intelligence, which if you ask me was Mr. Freeze's deadliest weapon. I would have preferred someone like Patrick Stewart, but it was not to be and as a result of Arnold landing the role we got a version of Mr. Freeze that was too buff as well as more hellbent on revenge. Not a good combination for the character, IMHO.

*George Clooney as Batman
What the hell was the casting director thinking? George Clooney as Batman? Please. He sucked, BIG TIME. He even came out and said it himself. If an actor does something like that, you'll have a hard time arguing with them over the matter.

There's not much else I can say here.

*Robin's suit
There were two versions for it in the film. The first was mostly black, with the bird insignia going across his chest colored red. The second was also mostly black, but the bird insignia going across his chest is silver instead of red. My problem with the suit was not it's coloring, but where it originated from. The suit is a blatant ripoff of Nightwing's, and in this film Robin did not become that character.

He was just slightly more rebellious than he was in the previous Batman film... nothing more, nothing less. It would have been better if the film's writers explained the costume change coupled with a change of identity, but things didn't turned out that way.

*Poison Ivy and Bane
As much as I tried to comprehend this villainous relationship, I just couldn't. Why on Earth the writers would just throw their origins together is beyond me. Even worse than that is how they went about it. Poison Ivy was great... beautiful, yet deadly. Bane, however, couldn't have been farther from his comic book roots. The character was big, all muscle, and a criminal mastermind in his own right.

This version was shorter, flabbier, a little green, and dumb as a rock. Let's face it... Bane was butchered and hacked to pieces, leaving behind a shell of worthless crap that couldn't speak full sentences.

*Barbara Wilson... Alfred's niece?
This is the part of the film that I hated more than anything. First, the writers altered the character by changing her last name and having her be of no relation to Commissioner Gordon whatsoever. This was logical, seeing as how the Commish looked a little bit too old to be a father. Then, she was turned into the daughter of Alfred's former fling, even though the woman was labeled as his "sister". That I had a problem with, but still I made an attempt at looking past it.

Last but certainly not least, Barbara was not only a blonde for the film but also a biker chic. That is where I drew the line. The writers reimagined Batgirl three times over and still managed to create one of the worst comic book-inspired film characters in the history of comic book-inspired films.

All in all, this film is fun to watch if you're pointing out the errors but other than that it is a meaningless jumble of guano (pun intended) that you wished you hadn't have spent good money to go see in the first place.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

I agree.

There is no question here. X2 had better everything, from the story all the way down to the special effects. When I went to go see the first one, I had to sit in the very front row and crane my neck to be able to get a full view of the screen. This time, that wasn't necessary and I got to sit somewhere in the middle of the room. From there the experience only got better as I was entertained by the trailers, and then the film I had been dying to see.

I wasn't disappointed, not even for an instant, and I gladly returned the following weekend just to see it one more time. It's a great film, and left me wanting more... a very good thing in my book. I can hardly wait until X3 debuts in theaters.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

I neither agree nor do I disagree.

I don't think I have seen all of the Superman films in great detail. I own the first one, but not the other three. I'm thinking of getting the boxed set soon though, so I'll have to follow up on my opinions then.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

I agree.

Pretty funny? Kevin Smith is hilarious. There is no end to his humor it seems, but I wish there was an end to the wait us readers have to suffer through in order to see one of his upcoming projects published. (Or in the case of Spider-Man/Black Cat - possibly Daredevil: The Target - finished.) I bet you that by the time I'm old and in a wheelchair they still won't be completed.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

I agree.

I don't like Rob, but I'm not going to say that I hate him either. He did give us Cable, Deadpool, and X-Force and for that I will always be grateful to him. I respect the hell out of Rob, don't get me wrong, I'm just not his #1 fan. Is he past his prime? For now, yes.

Later on down the road though, he might make a believer out of me. We'll see.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

I agree.

You're absolutely right there. During his tenure as the head honcho at Marvel, Jemas has spun a web of controversy that has received both positive and negative feedback. This guy knows how to push readers' buttons, and I think that's why he got the position in the first place. He's perfect for Marvel's presidential seat, and I couldn't imagine him doing anything else.

danzo

06-16-2003, 06:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gOgIver:
Hey, Maggot is right up there with Marrow.<hr /></blockquote>hey! i like Marrow! 'tho i prefer the pretty, controlled version....
o.k., the only one of these that really compels me to comment is #9- nah, no way. maybe the best comics are at a peak, but so is the level of crap. i'd go on about how so few modern artists have any apparent formal training like the masters of old or that there's far too many writers that haven't a hint that stories require certain basics.... but....

danzo

06-16-2003, 07:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Captain Slinky:
Those are all pretty far-out opinions to start with... how about we start slow with something easier, like having us all agree that comic books are traditionaly made of paper? Nah... someone will disagree, I'm sure...<hr /></blockquote>Scott McCloud says they were previously done in stone, deerskin, bark, tapestries, and stained glass. And if not for his disqualification of single-panel cartoons, the whole pre-Modern tradition of European painting and scultpure - in which every image was supposed to present a narrative - would count. This whole printed-on-paper business is a recent innovation. :) <hr /></blockquote>um, Todd, are you tweaking or something? feelin' down about the jobless-ness? what? your comments here are getting progressively more bizarre. comics are comics, period. not sculpture, not paintings. there are specific mechanics to comics, the single-panel qualifies as comics, although of the simplest cartooned expression; but a sculpture, like a duck is a duck, is a sculpture. cartooning is a specific illustrative form, drawing on various precursors; the result, comics, have always been on paper. the rest is merely poor logic and bad (faulty) arguments.
and as for your comments on Ross and Rockwell, wtf are you on about? Rockwell not mentioned in your 20th century art courses? probally not unless it's an Illustration course, illustrators like Rockwell are never covered in those courses so it's cheap of you to throw that in there. as most of us who flit about the arts know, illustration is not considered a 'fine' art.... it's merely the one of the visual arts that people enjoy most. (and don't even try to throw cinema in there- that's it's own form and not one of the classic visual arts)
as for Ross, another poster put it best:
"well, he has interesting work. but for something that is so... life like, it certainly lacks any life at all. it seems so clinical. boring."
your earlier comments about how with Ross' work it's so obvious that it's photo-reffed and hence flawed is inane. the same is true of all the artists who work that way. i'd say it's glaring in Bradstreets' work, and i'd still say his stuff is eff-ing awesome. if anything is lacking in Ross' work, it's that there is a certain static quality to it, but.... it's still so well-done and beautiful to disparge it so strongly smacks of jealousy.

Relijah

06-16-2003, 07:48 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
 So here are a few suggestions, tell me if you disagree and/or suggest your own.

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.
2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.
3) Maggot sucks.
4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.
5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.
6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.
7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.
8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.
9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,
10) That last Batman movie really sucked.
11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.
12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.
13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.
14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.
15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

There, I can’t imagine anyone disagreeing with any of those statements, but I know someone will. Let’s see if one survives the onslaught until next week.

<hr /></blockquote>1) Good but not the best.
2) See above.
3) Maggot was original and cool.
4) They were good but look even better cause almost everyone else on FF pretty much sucked.
5) Don't care.
6) Don't care.
7) They did and Claremont still continues to do so.
8) The art will be great.
9) They're good today but look even better cause the 90's royally sucked. The 80's stuff still rules.
10) Yup and so did Batman Forever.
11) The first X-Men movie really stunk so X2 was way way better.
12) Superman III and IV sucked then and suck now, Superman I and II were cool then but are not so cool now. Remembering how cool Superman II was is better than actually watching Superman II.
13) Kevin Smith is a good writer but the guy's a dork.
14) Rob Liefeld lives as long as we remember him. Please let us just forget.
15) Jeams is an idiot but the ULTIMATE news is that Ultimates and Ultimate X-Men are overrated and suck, especially the dialogue. Ultimate Spider-Man is pretty friggin' good though. With Bendis doing a stint on Ultimate X-Men now that title might actually be good now.

danzo

06-16-2003, 07:56 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aphterburn:
Ok, let me get some things off my chest:

Screw this "Maggot Sucks" bullshit. Maggot does not "suck". I'm not his biggest fan, but he had depth and brought a tragic and very unique dimension to the X-Men. Just cuz he doesn't shout out cool catchphrases, say words like "bub", and have a neat-o superpower or "kewl" claws does not make him suck. Morrison is constantly creating intersting characters like this today, and Maggot was no different.
(some content deleted for brevity)

Rant over.<hr /></blockquote>gee, i just have to reply to this one as well.... especially that bit about Morrison creating 'interesting' new characters. um, sometimes he does o.k.,like with with Angel the bug-girl, or the Cuckoos, even the silly Quentin or Xorn, but so much of his new 'stuff' just plain sucks and is bad science to boot- secondary mutations indeed! and the fascination for grotesqueries is almost unsettling.

danzo

06-16-2003, 08:25 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by playa hater:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by playa hater:
oh shut the fuck up.. Liefeld is good. He's done more than you ever will, made more money than you ever will, and is most likely will return. Late or not, people still buy his books...<hr /></blockquote>Ever look at the way little kids draw? It's not because their fingers don't work right, but because their brains don't process visual information the way most adult brains do. So the fact that many kids (and adults whose visual perception just never developed) can't see what's wrong with Liefeld's illustration skills, and/or lack the judgment to choose something better, doesn't mean the problems aren't there.

By the way, I really don't care whether he's more popular or richer or (back in the day) more prolific than I am. I'm content to be a better illustrator, and perhaps a better person.<hr /></blockquote>oh, so I guess Bill Sienkiewicz draws a bunch of lines... I suppose Mignola is crappy cause all he does is blocky and black...
and Picasso, he was a wack job.

you're a loser and I'll tell you why, I've been reading your posts and it seems to me you like pointing out the errors of others. Makes you feel good dont it? Using your high intellect and vast vocabulary to put down my fellow posters.

by the way, being content is another way of accepting the fact that you'll never break into comics and all you'll ever be is a out of work web designer.

and I hate reregistering<hr /></blockquote>i'm reposting all the above because playa was right and never should have apologized to or bought VerBeeks' transparency..... while Todd is correct in that Liefield sucks and why, it doesn't excuse the mean-spirit. or the willfull propagation of fallacies, or that pretentious shit like no one else here knows jack about art. case in point:
"Are you referring to his Blue period, Rose period, Analytic Cubism, Synthetic Cubism, or his later work? His early stuff was quite realistic, you know. A lot of people think that semi-abstract art is just a bunch of people who can't draw. But all of the important semi-abstract painters (impressionists, cubists, expressionists, etc.) were artists who knew how...." um, the Impressionists predate the Abstract movement by nearly a half century, the Expressionists were there a good two decades earlier, neither of these schools is considered 'abstract', they're 'representational', the Expressionists being considered the pre-cursors to the Abstractionists, the Fauves, Cubists, the Dadas, etc.. it's all part of the rather linear progression of the Modern Movement.... SO, when you choose to show your superiority, at least try to get the examples correct.
and playa, never doubt your instincts, you WERE right. don't let some high-falutin' talk cower ya....
oh, and Picassos' early work was not terribly realistic, just much more so than everything that followed....

Todd VerBeek

06-16-2003, 09:18 AM

MaxGoof

06-16-2003, 08:46 PM

I saw Maggott on the front page, and felt it necessary to register for this board just to make this post.

The Kelly/Seagle run on X-Men is my all-time favorite X-Men era, and I thought Cecilia Reyes and Marrow and *especially* Maggott were a breath of fresh air for the book.

Maggott had a tragic past, a unique speech, pattern, and one of the most bizarre/cool powers of any mutant ever. I would HAPPILY go so far as to say Maggott was one of my favorite 10 X-Characters of all-time.

I was saddened when he got knocked off Generation X after one issue, and I always hoped he'd be brought back and used by some writer in the future on X-Men. I was STUNNED when he was killed in Weapon X in one of the worst, most outrageous deaths in comics history. Maggott was a wonderful character he deserved to be written properly. Maggott is another good character that Marvel has wasted like Colossus, Longshot, and Magik.

I'm glad someone else is mourning for this great character. I know I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Michael C Lorah

06-16-2003, 09:06 PM

what the heck-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.<hr /></blockquote>agreed

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.<hr /></blockquote>damn good artist. not one of the greatest, at least not yet, but certainly no complaints.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />3) Maggot sucks.<hr /></blockquote>never read an appearance

<blockquote>quote:<hr />4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.<hr /></blockquote>by a LOOOONG shot, yes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.<hr /></blockquote>nah

<blockquote>quote:<hr />6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.<hr /></blockquote>pre-dates my comic readership, no comment

<blockquote>quote:<hr />7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.<hr /></blockquote>see #6

<blockquote>quote:<hr />8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.<hr /></blockquote>it'll look nice. story will be average. might live up to the almost certainly outrageous price point, maybe.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,<hr /></blockquote>not a chance. Simonson on Thor, Miller on Daredevil, Nexus, Maze Agency, Byrne on Superman, Watchmen, American Flagg, V for Vendetta, Swamp Thing, Crisis, Giffen's Justice League and Legion runs, Love & Rockets- i didn't even read comics during the 80's, but what i've gone back to track down has been simply jaw-dropping

<blockquote>quote:<hr />10) That last Batman movie really sucked.<hr /></blockquote>yes

<blockquote>quote:<hr />11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.<hr /></blockquote>yes, but then, I thought it almost had to be.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.<hr /></blockquote>agreed, although i'm not sure which one was actually worse. nuclear man, yech

<blockquote>quote:<hr />13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.<hr /></blockquote>yeah, for the most part. just don't bring up his last movie

<blockquote>quote:<hr />14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news<hr /></blockquote>certainly

<blockquote>quote:<hr />15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.<hr /></blockquote>only if you pay attention to him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Todd VerBeek

06-16-2003, 09:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by danzo: EMPHASIS added
"...A lot of people think that SEMI-abstract art is just a bunch of people who can't draw. But all of the important SEMI-abstract painters (impressionists, cubists, expressionists, etc.) were artists who knew how...." um, the Impressionists predate the Abstract movement by nearly a half century, [....] it's all part of the rather linear progression of the Modern Movement.... SO, when you choose to show your superiority, at least try to get the examples correct.<hr /></blockquote>I did. They are. See that word fragment "semi-"? I trust you know what it means, so I won't insult you with a definition.

That progression you described, from Manet to early Kandinsky, was (with some detours and variations along the way, so I won't quibble over the order) one of increasing abstraction, was it not? Now, since there was always a representation of an object in there somewhere, none of them (until late Kandinsky) were entirely capital-A-Abstract (Picasso and Braque veered off into Synthetic Cubism rather than cross that bridge), but neither were they Academic naturalists. They abstracted (pick one or more) form, color, line, proportion, perspective, etc. away from reality. That makes them "semi-abstract". I hope this makes my meaning a little clearer.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />oh, and Picassos' early work was not terribly realistic, just much more so than everything that followed....<hr /></blockquote>And much of what was being done in Paris at the time. They weren't photorealistic, of course, but his Rose-period acrobat paintings had natural body proportions, modeling of features, clear edges, organic curves instead of geometric shapes, plausible use of color and space, etc. My point was that Picasso's work was more than just "Guernica" and the Cubist work people usually think of when they hear his name.

Todd VerBeek

06-16-2003, 09:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pickard:
I watch entertainment to be entertained. I'm not necessarily looking for "creative expression of ideas". I'm sure you'll look down your nose at that. I don't really care.<hr /></blockquote>I don't look down my nose at it. If I were trying to insult that viewpoint, it'd be more obvious, right folks? :) I like to be entertained. But even though you insist on defining comics as only "entertainment", they can be other things as well. And I find "creative expression of ideas" one of the fascinating things comics can be. Since I also find that more uncommon than entertainment, the spotlight of an award is a helpful tool in locating it. By contrast, I don't need any help finding popular entertainment (for obvious reasons), which is why I tend to find those kinds of awards a bit pointless.

mike sangiacomo

06-16-2003, 11:21 PM

[QUOTE]
Mike San Giacomo here:

Just a note lest anyone think I was besmirching any writer or artist named Jones or Lee,
no, no, no.

There are just so many of them that they need to at least be given distinctive nicknames like Jeff "Schnitzel" Jones or R.A. "Mongoose" Jones to help us keep them apart.

That's all.

Mike "Smoochie" San Giacomo

kalorama

06-17-2003, 12:10 AM

It's quite simple really.

When dealing with works of creative imagination and expression and their interpretation in a free market by an audience of people with independent thaought and free will, there is absolutely no such thing as an "ultimate truth."

AdamYJ

06-17-2003, 12:15 AM

1) Alan Moore is a great writer, one of - if not the - greatest in comics.

I don't think I'm qualified to say who's the best in comics and who isn't. I can say that, what I've read of his work wasn't my cup of tea. It was just too dark and graphic for my tastes.

2) Alex Ross is a great artist. See above.

He's pretty darn good, at least as a painter. As a simple penciller/inker I'm not so sure.

3) Maggot sucks.

I didn't mind him too much. Of course, I didn't read a lot of stories with him in them.

4) Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the best team to ever work on the Fantastic Four.

Never read their FF work. Sorry.

5) There should be a moratorium on any more writers or artists with the last name of either Lee or Jones.

I don't think that's possible.

6) Jim Shooter may be a pain, but his work on Valiant Comics was freaking amazing.

Never read any Valiant Comics. Sorry again.

7) Chris Claremont and John Byrne did a great job on The X-Men way back when.

They were pretty darn good. My heart will always have itself centered in the '90s era though, purely because of my love for the character of Jubilee.

8) The JLA/Avengers team-up book is going to be amazing.

I have my fingers crossed.

9) Comics are better today than they have been in decades,

I'm not so sure.

10) That last Batman movie really sucked.

It wasn't the best of the franchise. Then again, I didn't think any really captured the tone right.

11) The X-Men sequel was better than the first movie.

It was pretty darn good. I think it could have still been better, but I'm a nitpicker.

12) The last two Superman movies really sucked, especially the one with Richard Pryor.

I think all the Superman movies went straight downhill once Supes erased Lois's memories with a kiss at the end of Superman II.

13) That Kevin Smith is a pretty funny guy and his comics will always be late.

Yes, always late. As for being funny, it depends on your tastes. He seems to have a slightly dirty sense of humor.

14) Rob Liefeld is last century’s news.

Couldn't agree more.

15) The ultimate truth that no one can deny: Marvel President Bill Jemas is a controversial guy.

Yes, but he is controversial at the cost of making himself look like a jackass. It seems like a pretty high price to pay in my eyes.

Rob Jensen

06-17-2003, 06:31 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
It would be interesting if someone were to go through the responses and tally up the results and see which came closest to being an ultimate truth.

Don't look at me.
[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>This survey is the kind of thing that we do a lot around Oscar time at Tom O'Neil's Gold Derby website -- <a href="http://www.goldderby.com." target="_blank">www.goldderby.com.</a> Give me 'til Thursday. (Yes, this is a threat.)

It's either this or I watch my Buffy Season 3 DVDs before I go to work. :D

-- Rob Jensen

Rob Jensen

06-17-2003, 07:54 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rob Jensen:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
It would be interesting if someone were to go through the responses and tally up the results and see which came closest to being an ultimate truth.

Don't look at me.
<hr /></blockquote>This survey is the kind of thing that we do a lot around Oscar time at Tom O'Neil's Gold Derby website -- <a href="http://www.goldderby.com." target="_blank">www.goldderby.com.</a> Give me 'til Thursday. (Yes, this is a threat.)

It's either this or I watch my Buffy Season 3 DVDs before I go to work. :D

-- Rob Jensen[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I've just spent the last hour or two starting to crunch the data. It's going to take a bit longer than 'til Thursday. Sunday, probably. I'll have a progress report sometime between Thursday and Saturday. (96 pages in Word. Oy vey!)

NOTE TO THOSE WHO HAVE ALREADY VOTED: Please, don't change your votes or even *ask* to change your votes. I was going to say "yet" and had even composed a verstion of this very paragraph stating that, but I just had a prophetic vision. There might, however, be a plea for clarifications forthcoming.

Also, NOTE TO ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTS TO VOTE: Please start your responses with some form of the following choices:

1) "Agree," "I Agree" or "Agreed."
2) "Disagree," "I Disagree" or "Disagreed." (I will count "neither" as "disagree," but I haven't come across any "neithers" yet.)
3) Both. (NOTE: Not applicable to all questions.)
4) Abstain or I Don't Know. (I'm counting anything resembling "I Don't Know" or "I've never read that" as "Abstain")

And then add your comments. If your explanation is especially creative, sarcastic, snarky, or expository, please keep in mind that without prefacing it with one of the above four categories of choices, I might count it as "Nonresponsive," "Ambiguous" or "Indeterminate." (As of this writing, I'm using all three in tabulating them until I get sick of using the other two.)

Finally, "Yes" used in a Vorlonic context will be counted as "Ambiguous." :p

Thanks,
Rob Jensen, junior ob/com

Grendel Prime

06-26-2003, 01:30 PM

I kindof liked Maggot. And he's the king of cool compared to Beak. But heaven help us if we criticize Grant Morrison!

(Just trying to make a point. I actually enjoy Morrison's current run very much.)

danzo

06-27-2003, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by Todd VerBeek
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by danzo: EMPHASIS added
"...A lot of people think that SEMI-abstract art is just a bunch of people who can't draw. But all of the important SEMI-abstract painters (impressionists, cubists, expressionists, etc.) were artists who knew how...." um, the Impressionists predate the Abstract movement by nearly a half century, [....] it's all part of the rather linear progression of the Modern Movement.... SO, when you choose to show your superiority, at least try to get the examples correct.<hr /></blockquote>I did. They are. See that word fragment "semi-"? I trust you know what it means, so I won't insult you with a definition.

That progression you described, from Manet to early Kandinsky, was (with some detours and variations along the way, so I won't quibble over the order) one of increasing abstraction, was it not? Now, since there was always a representation of an object in there somewhere, none of them (until late Kandinsky) were entirely capital-A-Abstract (Picasso and Braque veered off into Synthetic Cubism rather than cross that bridge), but neither were they Academic naturalists. They abstracted (pick one or more) form, color, line, proportion, perspective, etc. away from reality. That makes them "semi-abstract". I hope this makes my meaning a little clearer.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />oh, and Picassos' early work was not terribly realistic, just much more so than everything that followed....<hr /></blockquote>And much of what was being done in Paris at the time. They weren't photorealistic, of course, but his Rose-period acrobat paintings had natural body proportions, modeling of features, clear edges, organic curves instead of geometric shapes, plausible use of color and space, etc. My point was that Picasso's work was more than just "Guernica" and the Cubist work people usually think of when they hear his name.
sigh. there you go again, attempting to be clever, hoping it will cover the gaping holes in your arguments. tsk. yes, of course i noted the 'semi' before abstract; but the point is from an art-history stand-point YOU ARE WRONG. heck, pre-renaissance art is plenty abstract, as are Egyptian pteraglyphs, greek sculpture/pottery and so many of the arts of history..... but, historically, none are considered 'abstract' it's that simple. i point this out simply to show you what it like to be on the receiving end: what it's like to have your every little statement hacked to shreds like you so gleefully do to so many posters here. the difference is that i stick to commonly accepted facts and definitions rather than create my own as you do.
oh, and since when does abstract preclude the representation of an object? many Abstract works do exactly that; they abstract reality. ("Now, since there was always a representation of an object in there somewhere, none of them (until late Kandinsky) were entirely capital-A-Abstract (Picasso and Braque veered off into Synthetic Cubism rather than cross that bridge") and sythethic cubism IS Abstract.....hell, it's often the first one taught because it nicely codifies the goals of abstraction, the purely intellectual approach and all that. sigh.

TVerBeek

06-27-2003, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by danzo
sigh. there you go again, attempting to be clever, hoping it will cover the gaping holes in your arguments. tsk. yes, of course i noted the 'semi' before abstract; but the point is from an art-history stand-point YOU ARE WRONG.Evidently your art history teacher used terminology differently from mine, because they described the Modernist art movements that deliberately used partial abstraction from reality as "semi-abstract" and those that included no representation of objects whatsoever as simply "abstract" or "pure abstraction". It may not be the single correct way to describe it, but if you ask around I think you'll find it is a fairly common one, and not one I just made up. And your teacher disagrees with mine about whether Synthetic Cubism qualifies as simply "abstract", or not. That's a matter of opinion, not fact. Hell, this is Art History, two highly subjective topics rolled into one! So unless your textbook and glossary were engraved on stone tablets and given to Moses, it doesn't give you the right to pontificate that I AM WRONG. Were your art history teachers this dogmatic?

Look, I didn't start this pointless debate over the meaning of "abstract". You did, because you saw it as a chance to cut me down, thinking you'd "caught" me in a misuse of terminology, and you've been nasty about it from the beginning; I've tried to keep it civil. You know, some people would regard "overly-opinionated lil' cuss" as a criticism; the fact that you think it's something to brag about doesn't speak well of you.

P.S. I just noticed that the new message-board software supports an "Ignore" list. If you find me this difficult to cope with, I encourage you to use it as well.

danzo

06-27-2003, 06:14 PM

"Were your art history teachers this dogmatic?"
um, yes. yes they were. with a very distinct line drawn between opinion and the rest....
oh, and i really don't think i'm being any less civil here towards you than you have been to so many others; go re-read some of your posts. as for ignoring you, nah! you add to my enjoyment of this site simply by being the overly opinionated ('tho in my view wrong) lil' cuss that you are.
(heck, i even like OM !!!!)

;)

TVerBeek

06-27-2003, 11:54 PM

Hmm... why did this show up? Well, since I've seen it...
Originally posted by danzo
"Were your art history teachers this dogmatic?"
um, yes. yes they were.Well I guess if I'd been given such a load of useless rubbish in exchange for my tuition, I'd be angry enough to throw it at strangers, as well. Did you try asking for you money back? I would. I mean... OK, maybe you just didn't regurgitate it properly, but... it didn't even make sense. Which is what you get when you're not allowed to question the Holy Textbook.
oh, and i really don't think i'm being any less civil here towards you than you have been to so many othersThat's between me and them. (But for some reason it really pissed you off when one of them said, "no harm, no foul". Bizarre.) If you really gave a damn about civility, you wouldn't get such an obvious stiffy from attacking others yourself. Maybe you just don't like someone else horning in on your business? I give up; I only took two semesters of Psych, and you're way beyond that.

danzo

07-04-2003, 03:59 AM

o.k., it's official. you are a moron. still resorting to the same simple and hollow tactics, unable to admit, "hey, maybe i was wrong" simple fact is, you snowballed yer way to the 'no harm, no foul' response, you are a mean-spirited little creature, and your description/examples of semi-abstract art WERE wrong on several levels. you attempt to paint me as the malignant one, yet i only ever RESPOND TO YOU, who's really looking to vent here?
on the concept of "useless rubbish" i'd have to say that the student who received the mistaken idea that a thing is whatever one wishes it to be rather than that which it is, is the one who was burned on their tuition, not the one who learned the defining differences between the many, often confusing schools of the modern movement. it's far better to know what is Expressionism vs. what is Post-Expressionism or Abstract-Expressionism, say, than to label things as one will and hope that they do not get called on it....;) heck, according to your expressed viewpoint, an apple is an orange if ya want it to be. how silly is that?
as for things being between you and the people you savage, well, no. this is a public forum, and just as in reality i will never sit back and allow another to be abused, i won't do so here either. you are mean. you are a bully. you attempt to cower others with a veneer of superiority, and that is a very ugly thing indeed. people like you MUST be challenged. it's that simple.
a final point, among fine-art academics (not that i particularilly like their kind) there exists an absolute abhorrence of people who play fast and loose with the terminology, not a 'fairly common' acceptance as you state.... also, Art History is not subjective, you're confusing it with Art-Theory.....(." That's a matter of opinion, not fact. Hell, this is Art History, two highly subjective topics rolled into one! So unless your textbook and glossary were engraved on stone tablets and given to Moses,...") yup. you are wrong. go demand yer tuition back, ya late in life wanna-be artist.
o.k., that was mean, i apologize. :D it's always nice when someone awakens to art, but it's far sadder when they embrace the snobbery-- like rippin on Ross, which is where this started. ugly, ugly business. and just plain wrong. where's all the awesome VerBeek illustrated books? the proof that you're worthy to rip on anyone beyond Liefield? hmmm?